Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Science In Islam, Creation Of The Universe?


Recommended Posts

  • Basic Members

Assalamwalikum Borthers and Sisters!

 

I'm a young Muslim man, and I was just wondering about the general views of science today and how they relate with islam. One particular question is about the creation of the universe, or the so called big bang theory. When I was a kid my shia madrassa teacher would always disregard and laugh at the concept of the big bang. Saying it was completely false. This makes me wonder, does Allah describe or mention the creation of the universe in the quran, and what part of the big bang theory would conflict with the the islamic view? I mean the theory describes a single dense point where the universe expanded from, nothing before that, so whats to say that Allah did not expand the universe this way, does islam disprove this? 

 

Thank you, wa Salaam.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Salaam. First big bang theory dose not contradict Islam at all. And the six days are six periods of time. What we disagree with is the theory of evolution for mankind and have arguments we can set forward to prove our disagreement.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam. First big bang theory dose not contradict Islam at all. And the six days are six periods of time. What we disagree with is the theory of evolution for mankind and have arguments we can set forward to prove our disagreement.

Not at it's most fundamental level Maitham. There are some scholars that do not disagree.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Not at it's most fundamental level Maitham. There are some scholars that do not disagree.

you mean evolution? If so that would contradict with alot of our text. Plus we have good hints to think there was a creation similar to

man yet lacking intellect here before us they are not related to us.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)
When discussing evolution I think it is important to point out whether you are discussing the principle that natural selection occurs over time, leading to evolution of a species or whether you are discussing the suggestion that human beings have evolved from apes as these are fundamentally two different things. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

We as Muslims need to stop attempting to justify our beliefs through scientific proofs. Since science is always changing, it is very easy for the most enlightened thinkers to say that since the Quran is not matching with reality, Islam is false.

 

Here is a purported scientific contradiction:

 

Quran 21:33 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

 

The atheist will say that since the Quran fails to mention the Earth in an orbit, the Quranic Earth is stationary, while the Sun and Moon orbit the Earth. However, we need to remember that Copernicus discovered the Earth in a heliocentric orbit in the 16th century. If the Quran was clear about the Earth orbiting the Sun, free-thinkers from 700-1500 would have had reason to say the Quran was wrong, as it is "obvious" that the Sun and Moon revolve around the sun. Therefore, in order to be a sign for all ages, the Quran cannot be too specific about science for this reason.

 

And if any brother or sister wants to argue about evolution with me, I would love to. I am low on allowed posts now, but the current science has established that evolution for non-humans is undeniable not simply due to fossils, but the DNA evidence as well. Human evolution from chimpanzee ancestors has not been definitively proven yet. 

(salam)
When discussing evolution I think it is important to point out whether you are discussing the principle that natural selection occurs over time, leading to evolution of a species or whether you are discussing the suggestion that human beings have evolved from apes as these are fundamentally two different things. 

 

1. Humans and modern apes are proposed to have evolved from an ape-ish common ancestor, not a common chimpanzee.

2. How are they fundamentally different things? I see no difference at all. 

Edited by EthidiumIodide
Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you summarize what he says brother as I am on a phone typing and we only get 1 gig a month data over here.

Oh okay, umm.

 

  • Science is not incompatible with religion. Rather, science is a subset of religion (meaning science only operates within religion).
  • Evolution is not dismissed by Islam. Only the proposal that 'there is no need for a God' is dismissed as absurd.
  • There could have been an existing system on Earth in which Allah placed Adam when he created him, but Allah is the key factor over here.

(salam)

When discussing evolution I think it is important to point out whether you are discussing the principle that natural selection occurs over time, leading to evolution of a species or whether you are discussing the suggestion that human beings have evolved from apes as these are fundamentally two different things. 

Also, the argument of natural selection is invalid if someone claims that there is no God (and that we are biological soup) because of the fact that we are averse to killing old people and we are averse to killing terminally ill patients. We are averse, also, to killing people with hereditary diseases.

 

Why don't we just get rid of them? They are a detriment to society and they only cause damage to the 'fittest' in the long run. Natural selection revolved around 'survival of the fittest' and therefore we should all kill them since we are biological soup and natural selection rules our nature.

 

Just wanted to put that in. Alhamdulillah Allah has given us a conscience and base moral values that sets us apart from animals and beasts. At the same time, while observing this perfect system, the common Athiest rejects Allah. This is blindness to it's highest extent in my opinion.

 

I realize this post may not have been strictly related to the OP. I just wanted to add what I could.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Oh okay, umm.

  • Science is not incompatible with religion. Rather, science is a subset of religion (meaning science only operates within religion).
  • Evolution is not dismissed by Islam. Only the proposal that 'there is no need for a God' is dismissed as absurd.
  • There could have been an existing system on Earth in which Allah placed Adam when he created him, but Allah is the key factor over here.
Also, the argument of natural selection is invalid if someone claims that there is no God (and that we are biological soup) because of the fact that we are averse to killing old people and we are averse to killing terminally ill patients. We are averse, also, to killing people with hereditary diseases.

Why don't we just get rid of them? They are a detriment to society and they only cause damage to the 'fittest' in the long run. Natural selection revolved around 'survival of the fittest' and therefore we should all kill them since we are biological soup and natural selection rules our nature.

Just wanted to put that in. Alhamdulillah Allah has given us a conscience and base moral values that sets us apart from animals and beasts. At the same time, while observing this perfect system, the common Athiest rejects Allah. This is blindness to it's highest extent in my opinion.

I realize this post may not have been strictly related to the OP. I just wanted to add what I could.

brother what is the difference between. What I am saying and him?
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea brother and I have not dismissed it either except for having to do with nabi Aba adam (as)

But remember you said:

 

"you mean evolution? If so that would contradict with alot of our text."

 

Did you mean only for Adam (as) ?

 

I don't think he dismissed it for Adam (as) either.. He was basically saying that even if we did evolve from apes, somewhere along the line Allah would have to have intervened and given Adam (as) characteristics that are different from apes. Our conscience and things did not come from evolution, even though our biology might have.

Edited by BuggyLemon
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I meant only for adam. And In the sentence u summarized it seemed he said Adam was placed in the system that was already set up is that so? As that is what I believe to be correct.

Oh okay then. I must have misunderstood. Yeah that viewpoint makes sense both Islamically and scientifically :) .

 

Take care bro.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Yes I would view it as possible that Allah created a kalq system which is natural laws if evolution is in that or not allahuallam. But that Adam was created and sent down not part of that set up system on earth so if that was evolution or not Adam was a new addition to the earth that did not come about over time of molding. The creation and forming of the earth took four periods this evolution would have to be with in that. And take care as well

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

And if any brother or sister wants to argue about evolution with me, I would love to. I am low on allowed posts now, but the current science has established that evolution for non-humans is undeniable not simply due to fossils, but the DNA evidence as well. Human evolution from chimpanzee ancestors has not been definitively proven yet. 

 

1. Humans and modern apes are proposed to have evolved from an ape-ish common ancestor, not a common chimpanzee.

2. How are they fundamentally different things? I see no difference at all. 

1. Agreed.

 

2. The process of natural selection is different to research into common ancestory which relies a lot more heavily on phylogenetic trees and taxonomy. Scientific theories cannot stand completely independent of all other current scientific knowledge yet when they are of the same discipline, they are still in principle, different ideas. You have said already that evolution for non humans is undeniable yet chimpanzee ancestors (I presume here you meant ape-ish common ancestors) have not been definitely proven. If they were fundamentally the same thing, the evidence would be sufficient to prove both claims yet as you have pointed out, that is not the case. Both theories stand on their own and are treated irrespective of each other. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Oh okay, umm.

 

  • Science is not incompatible with religion. Rather, science is a subset of religion (meaning science only operates within religion).
  • Evolution is not dismissed by Islam. Only the proposal that 'there is no need for a God' is dismissed as absurd.
  • There could have been an existing system on Earth in which Allah placed Adam when he created him, but Allah is the key factor over here.

Also, the argument of natural selection is invalid if someone claims that there is no God (and that we are biological soup) because of the fact that we are averse to killing old people and we are averse to killing terminally ill patients. We are averse, also, to killing people with hereditary diseases.

 

Why don't we just get rid of them? They are a detriment to society and they only cause damage to the 'fittest' in the long run. Natural selection revolved around 'survival of the fittest' and therefore we should all kill them since we are biological soup and natural selection rules our nature.

 

Just wanted to put that in. Alhamdulillah Allah has given us a conscience and base moral values that sets us apart from animals and beasts. At the same time, while observing this perfect system, the common Athiest rejects Allah. This is blindness to it's highest extent in my opinion.

 

I realize this post may not have been strictly related to the OP. I just wanted to add what I could.

Interesting viewpoint but I'm not sure an atheist would see it like that and would argue that natural selection is an eventual process over an extremely long period of time and therefore the individual members of a species are not actively being ruled by natural selection during their lifetime. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting viewpoint but I'm not sure an atheist would see it like that and would argue that natural selection is an eventual process over an extremely long period of time and therefore the individual members of a species are not actively being ruled by natural selection during their lifetime.

I don't think an atheist would argue that as survival of the fittest involves individuals in the present

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I don't think an atheist would argue that as survival of the fittest involves individuals in the present

 

Agreed. In a population of gazelle, the fastest gazelle will escape slaughter by the leopard, but not so fast that they waste energy on running and lose energy to ahem, produce more children or not have enough energy to take care of the young they already have.

 

The same is for the leopard. The slow leopards will starve to death, but if a leopard is too fast, he might break his leg and as you know, there are no casts or leopard doctors in the wild.

 

So as you can see, natural selection acts on the present and allows animals to become exquisitely suited to their environment. Not too fast, not too slow, not too fat, not too thin, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators

Interesting discussion thus far,

 

There was no Islamic condemnation for a scientific discovery in the Muslim world until the early 1900s. By then, the Christian vs. Science dynamic had reached the Muslim world via British and French colonialism. For most of our history, scientific discoveries were a means of learning about our Creator and nurturing human progress. Almost all Muslims believed that Allah's truth exists outside of the Qur'an, so that gave scholars the ability to develop hadith studies, philosophical and logical modules, medicinal sciences, astronomy, chemistry, mathematics, etc. For Christians, the connection to God was through the Bible and the personality of Jesus. For Muslims, the connection to God is through understanding His attributes and His creation. So, while Christians were burned at the stake for trying to develop truths that were independent of the Bible, Muslims had their golden age (with some dark spots).

 

Evolution is probably the only scientific point that poses a direct challenge to the traditional origin story. Islam doesn't say the Earth is 6000 years old, nor did it say the Earth was flat, nor did it say that the Earth was the centre of the universe, nor did it say that the Sun was a static object, nor did it say that we were alone in the universe, nor is there any thing without an explanation or alternative interpretation. Evolution however deals with the origin of our species, and it has a lot of academic research behind it. There's a few important issues to discuss here. Firstly, evolutionary sciences are still developing - the theory has a lot of credence, but the details of the theory are up for discussion and debate. Secondly, questioning the fundamentals of the theory is somewhat taboo nowadays in academia, as it is becoming the central dogma of the secular world. In my unprofessional opinion (I only took one university course on evolution), we've reached the point of no return, and much in human evolution is undeniable.

 

The Adam/Eve story is central to Christianity - the embarrassing unscientific and sexist details of that story are immortalized in the Bible. Through Adam, you get the Original Sin. Through the original sin, you get Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. If Adam was metaphorical (as many modern Christians are now saying), and if the Original Sin did not really occur, then Jesus' atonement is unnecessary. That means, all in all, Christianity is unnecessary. This is why evolution is such a big problem for Christians and this is why they stood against the research.

 

So how should it be dealt with in Islam? Firstly, it's important to make distinctions with the Christian story. We do not say Adam (as) was created in the image of God, but rather, Adam was created in his own image - the image that Allah intended for him. Secondly, Hawwa' coming from the rib of Adam is not in the Qur'an, and some have suggested that she was created as a separate being completely. Thirdly, Islam does not say that the Earth or the Universe was created at the time of Adam's formation. On the contrary, Muslim theologians discussed the events before Adam. Early Sunni scholars put forward the idea that there were "nasnaas" on Earth before Adam. The nasnaas are a half-man half-animal creature in Arabic theology. Those that argued for this used the verse in the Baqara that shows that angels were already familiar with violent human behaviour, so they must have had experience with something similar to humans. As for Shi`a scholarship, we have many hadiths that say that there were many Adams. What's interesting is that this is never said about other prophets; yet we have narrations that say there are many Adams. The possibility that Adam was not just one person, but many, opens up doors for any attempts to reconcile evolution with Islamic tradition. As you can see, ancient Islamic tradition is far better equipped to deal with evolution than Christianity is.

 

The necessity is to believe in Adam (as), believe in his prophethood, and believe that he is the common ancestor of all humanity. The Garden could have been in Paradise, it could have been on Earth, and it could have been in neither. The timing of his life could have been whenever. And there is a possibility that Adam here is really a label for a group of humans and not just one. Beyond that, Allah knows best. Just as Allah created Jesus (as) without a father, Allah can create a new human being without a father and mother, genetically similar to those before him but not related by family.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Allah has created every moving (living) creature from water. Of them there are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Verily! Allah is Able to do all things.
24:45


And it is He Who has created man from water, and has appointed for him kindred by blood, and kindred by marriage. And your Lord is Ever All-Powerful to do what He will.

25:54

Science in the Quran 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I don't think an atheist would argue that as survival of the fittest involves individuals in the present

I understand what you're saying but I was referring to natural selection not survival of the fittest. Although all these concepts are closely related, some even causing the other, they aren't interchangeable.

Edited by *Sayyeda*
Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand what you're saying but I was referring to natural selection not survival of the fittest. Although all these concepts are closely related, some even causing the other, they aren't interchangeable.

Survival of the fittest is part of natural selection. Therefore natural selection is also in the present moment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Assalamwalikum Borthers and Sisters!

 

I'm a young Muslim man, and I was just wondering about the general views of science today and how they relate with islam. One particular question is about the creation of the universe, or the so called big bang theory. When I was a kid my shia madrassa teacher would always disregard and laugh at the concept of the big bang. Saying it was completely false. This makes me wonder, does Allah describe or mention the creation of the universe in the quran, and what part of the big bang theory would conflict with the the islamic view? I mean the theory describes a single dense point where the universe expanded from, nothing before that, so whats to say that Allah did not expand the universe this way, does islam disprove this? 

 

Thank you, wa Salaam.

Islamic Cosmological Doctrines, by Nasr.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Assalamwalikum Borthers and Sisters!

 

I'm a young Muslim man, and I was just wondering about the general views of science today and how they relate with islam. One particular question is about the creation of the universe, or the so called big bang theory. When I was a kid my shia madrassa teacher would always disregard and laugh at the concept of the big bang. Saying it was completely false. This makes me wonder, does Allah describe or mention the creation of the universe in the quran, and what part of the big bang theory would conflict with the the islamic view? I mean the theory describes a single dense point where the universe expanded from, nothing before that, so whats to say that Allah did not expand the universe this way, does islam disprove this? 

 

Thank you, wa Salaam.

It is not the business of the Quran (aka the Eternal Word of God) to talk about ideas and concepts which have nothing to do with God.  The Quran talks about realities whose values are eternal (by virtue of the fact that they point directly to God), not about so called "facts" or ideas (like black holes, gravity, and the big bang) whose values are contingent on a certain era of human history.      

Edited by eThErEaL
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Survival of the fittest is part of natural selection. Therefore natural selection is also in the present moment.

(salam)

I'm not denying the role of the survival of the fittest IN natural selection but natural selection is determined as a gradual process over time therefore referring back to my original post, I was talking about how natural selection doesn't actively rule an individual although we've establish that survival of the fittest does. I hope InshAllah you can understand where I'm coming from. Either way, we're disagreeing on semantics not principles here so let's leave it at that if possible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

I'm not denying the role of the survival of the fittest IN natural selection but natural selection is determined as a gradual process over time therefore referring back to my original post, I was talking about how natural selection doesn't actively rule an individual although we've establish that survival of the fittest does. I hope InshAllah you can understand where I'm coming from. Either way, we're disagreeing on semantics not principles here so let's leave it at that if possible.

You are a real blessing to this forum sis. All I ever see from you is relevant, quality posts. Keep it up :) .

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...