Jump to content
In the Name of God بسم الله

Do Islam Has Any Sect?

Rate this topic


SyedAli76

Recommended Posts

  • Basic Members

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

 

 

I have reached  a conclusion,Prophet Muhammad was not a Shia or Sunny or Wahabhi. So logically we should only be Muslims. For way of praying, way of life and every thing , only look at the life of Prophet Muhammad, nothing else. Furthermore all Suhabah who were associated with Prophet till his death were all respectable and better than us in any way.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

 

 

I have reached  a conclusion,Prophet Muhammad was not a Shia or Sunny or Wahabhi. So logically we should only be Muslims. For way of praying, way of life and every thing , only look at the life of Prophet Muhammad, nothing else. Furthermore all Suhabah who were associated with Prophet till his death were all respectable and better than us in any way.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

 

(1) Of course the prophet (pbuh) was not a Shia, Sunni or Wahabi, But these sects are dependent on who they follow.

(2) Shia Means Follower, Following the Ahlulbayt (as), as the prophet (s) said " I leave in you ( Ummah ) two things, the book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt (as).

(3) Not All the Sahabas are to be respected. Do you respect the killers of Imam Hussain (as)? Do you respect the Sahabas Who burnt the house of Fatima't Al Zahraa (as)? the Daughter of the prophet (s) who he said: " who ever makes Fatima Angry has made me Angry?  Do you love the Sahabas Who Broke the ribs of Fatima't al Zahraa (as)? Who killed the infant inside her? 

 

Do you respect the Sahabas Who fought Imam  Ali (as)? on the War of Safiin and in the War of Jamal? 

Do you respect killer of Imam Hussain (as)?

 

In total do you respect the Sahabahs Who fought Ahlulbayt (as)?

(4) your Conclusion is Invalid.

(salam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

 

 

I have reached  a conclusion,Prophet Muhammad was not a Shia or Sunny or Wahabhi. So logically we should only be Muslims. For way of praying, way of life and every thing , only look at the life of Prophet Muhammad, nothing else. Furthermore all Suhabah who were associated with Prophet till his death were all respectable and better than us in any way.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

bro.. bro.. bro..

 

offcourse he wasn't a wahabi, sunni or shia IT STARTED ALL WHEN HE DIED WITH IMAM ALI (AS)

and don't tell me, the prophet (saw) didn't leave a successor, all prophets did, why wouldn't he? the ahadith of the prophet (saw) about imam ali (as) are in all the books of all sects.

 

wasalam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Veteran Member

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

 

 

I have reached  a conclusion,Prophet Muhammad was not a Shia or Sunny or Wahabhi. So logically we should only be Muslims. For way of praying, way of life and every thing , only look at the life of Prophet Muhammad, nothing else. Furthermore all Suhabah who were associated with Prophet till his death were all respectable and better than us in any way.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

 

Bro, dose the Quran give verification, that all Suhabah were Respectable? if not, then how did you come to such conclusion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

You should stop living in a fantasy. Sects are part of Islam. According to Islam, you either find the one true sect that's guarantee Jannah/Paradise or die in hell with the rest of 72 other sects. :mad:

 

But on a serious note, the odds of finding that one true sect out of many doesn't look well for anyone. :(

Edited by Gypsy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators

A sect is a methodology - what methodology do you use to pray and fast? What books and scholars do you hold as authoritative? How do you interpret the Qur'an? Where do you get your aqeeda and fiqh from? We're not contemporaries of the Prophet (pbuh), and so we need a way to attain his teachings - what is your means?

 

I was in a similar position 6 years ago, because I hated labels. But if you want to live a religious life, you need a way to observe Islam. Relying on your own personal opinions is not enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

 

 

I have reached  a conclusion,Prophet Muhammad was not a Shia or Sunny or Wahabhi. So logically we should only be Muslims. For way of praying, way of life and every thing , only look at the life of Prophet Muhammad, nothing else. Furthermore all Suhabah who were associated with Prophet till his death were all respectable and better than us in any way.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

 

my simple question to you. "from where do you find the Sunnah life Prophet Muhammad (pbuh and his progeny)" ... from Sahih books? so you're automatically in a sect. You just can't reply on The Holy Quran for finding Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ... Ok simple you've two options. 

 

1) Follow Sahabas

OR

2) Follow Prophet (pbuh) Family

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

My name is Syed Ali but Alhumdulliah ii dont believe in any sect in Islam.

 

 

I have reached  a conclusion,Prophet Muhammad was not a Shia or Sunny or Wahabhi. So logically we should only be Muslims. For way of praying, way of life and every thing , only look at the life of Prophet Muhammad, nothing else. Furthermore all Suhabah who were associated with Prophet till his death were all respectable and better than us in any way.

 

This is my thoughts.

 

Islam has no sects but Muslims have endless number of sects 

 

ws

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The term 'sect' is such a negative term. I don't know why people say it as though Sunni Islam is one big sect and Shi`a Islam is another. All legitimate Islamic doctrines are schools of thoughts, part of one large circle, with differences that aren't extravagant enough to consider one school of thought out of the fold of Islam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

As a general rule, all Muslims  regardless of sects are supposed to follow only Ameer ul Mumineen Ali bin Abi Talib

(as) after the demise of the Holy Messenger (sawa). 

 

 

Anyone following anything else besides the Quran and Ahlul Bayt are misguided and lost like the Sunnis who formed their own sect based on Sahaba fantasy world 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a general rule, all Muslims regardless of sects are supposed to follow only Ameer ul Mumineen Ali bin Abi Talib

(as) after the demise of the Holy Messenger Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå.

Anyone following anything else besides the Quran and Ahlul Bayt are misguided and lost like the Sunnis who formed their own sect based on Sahaba fantasy world

Ahh... Come on now brother that's a rather unfair statement to make isn't it??

If by following quran and ahle bayt means you're "rightly guided" then who is on more "right" guidance within shia sects?? You all "claim" to be following ahle bayt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You should stop living in a fantasy. Sects are part of Islam. According to Islam, you either find the one true sect that's guarantee Jannah/Paradise or die in hell with the rest of 72 other sects. :mad:

 

But on a serious note, the odds of finding that one true sect out of many doesn't look well for anyone. :(

Misunderstanding.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

Ahh... Come on now brother that's a rather unfair statement to make isn't it??

If by following quran and ahle bayt means you're "rightly guided" then who is on more "right" guidance within shia sects?? You all "claim" to be following ahle bayt.

Not all Shia sect's follow 12 Imams. Its only 12vers who follow the Hadith of 12 Imams in the Shia Sect, as matter of fact i will say 12vers is not an sect in Shia'sm.

Edited by power
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not all Shia sect's follow 12 Imams. Its only 12vers who follow the Hadith of 12 Imams in the Shia Sect, as matter of fact i will say 12vers is not an sect in Shia'sm.

Bro no ones talking about "12 imams". We are talking about AHLE BAYT in general. The whole ummah is unanimous that AHLE BAYT is the 5 personalities after that we all differ.

So what I was saying was if following the "AHLE BAYT" means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect is on "right guidance".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bro no ones talking about "12 imams". We are talking about AHLE BAYT in general. The whole ummah is unanimous that AHLE BAYT is the 5 personalities after that we all differ.

So what I was saying was if following the "AHLE BAYT" means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect is on "right guidance".

 

 

the Twelvers. Full stop. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stop acting childish and answer properly.

(1) Please stop Insulting others, and behave more Adult like please.

(2) You had no Question, What was the Question? What you put there was a Statement. 

(3) make an Understandable Question so we can read.

(wasalam) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(1) Please stop Insulting others, and behave more Adult like please.

(2) You had no Question, What was the Question? What you put there was a Statement.

(3) make an Understandable Question so we can read.

(wasalam)

1. I'm not insulting.

2. It's very sad that you can't tell the difference between a statement and a question.

Bro no ones talking about "12 imams". We are talking about AHLE BAYT in general. The whole ummah is unanimous that AHLE BAYT is the 5 personalities after that we all differ.

So what I was saying was if following the "AHLE BAYT" means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect is on "right guidance".

So if following "AHLE BAYT" ie; five personalities means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect are in "right guidance"??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

Bro no ones talking about "12 imams". We are talking about AHLE BAYT in general. The whole ummah is unanimous that AHLE BAYT is the 5 personalities after that we all differ.

So what I was saying was if following the "AHLE BAYT" means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect is on "right guidance".

 

Are you saying the hadith of 12 imams has nothing to do with Ahlu Bayht ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you saying the hadith of 12 imams has nothing to do with Ahlu Bayht ?

I've already answered this on a different thread BUT il answer you too.

The hadith of the twelve caliphs does NOT help you in any way shape or form because;

1. We do NOT recognise any imam who will be in "occultation"

2. Our imam mahdi father name will be abdullah r.a and your imam mahdi was the son of imam hasan Askari r.a

3. Our 12 caliphs are from QURAISH and yours are restricted to AHLE BAYT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Islam has no sects but Muslims have endless number of sects 

 

ws

 

What do you mean Islam has no sects? All the Muslim sects "claim" to be following Islam. So, yeah, Islam has these factions/sects. So technically, Islamic faith is interpreted via Muslims sects.

For further elaboration - read post #6 by Qaim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Statement:
1. I'm not insulting.

 

Have you checked your replies in Appointing a Successor? And uli al amr? not to mention Who are the blind? Magnificent I say. 

 

Statement:
2. It's very sad that you can't tell the difference between a statement and a question.

 

Really? can you please prove how your early Question was A Question in the first place? And how can you judge me Quickly when you are the one who does not stick with the Regulations of our debate?  

 

Statement:
Bro no ones talking about "12 imams". We are talking about AHLE BAYT in general. The whole ummah is unanimous that AHLE BAYT is the 5 personalities after that we all differ.

 

I proved to your earlier, that the Nine sons of Imam Hussain (a.s) from the Lineage of Fatima (a.s) are of Ahlulbyt. And you refuted non of my Evidence nor posts. as usual.  

 

 

Statement:
So what I was saying was if following the "AHLE BAYT" means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect is on "right guidance".

So if following "AHLE BAYT" ie; five personalities means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect are in "right guidance"?? 

 

Depends on you understanding the Definition of Ahlulbayt (a.s). To us it is:
 

  • Fatimah al-Zahra (AS),
  • Imam Ali (AS),
  • Imam al-Hasan (AS),
  • Imam al-Husain (AS),
  • Nine descendants of Imam al-Husain (AS).

 

There is no Two definitions to One Word "Ahlulbayt". So you must Reach a Conclusion that is based on Authentic Evidence to Understand their Identity. And When you do, You will know Who to Follow and Why. And who was the Successor after the prophet peace be upon him.


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Statement:

1. I'm not insulting.

Have you checked your replies in Appointing a Successor? And uli al amr? not to mention Who are the blind? Magnificent I say.

Statement:

2. It's very sad that you can't tell the difference between a statement and a question.

Really? can you please prove how your early Question was A Question in the first place? And how can you judge me Quickly when you are the one who does not stick with the Regulations of our debate?

Statement:

Bro no ones talking about "12 imams". We are talking about AHLE BAYT in general. The whole ummah is unanimous that AHLE BAYT is the 5 personalities after that we all differ.

I proved to your earlier, that the Nine sons of Imam Hussain (a.s) from the Lineage of Fatima (a.s) are of Ahlulbyt. And you refuted non of my Evidence nor posts. as usual.

Statement:

So what I was saying was if following the "AHLE BAYT" means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect is on "right guidance".

So if following "AHLE BAYT" ie; five personalities means you're "rightly guided" then which shia sect are in "right guidance"??

Depends on you understanding the Definition of Ahlulbayt (a.s). To us it is:

  • Fatimah al-Zahra (AS),
  • Imam Ali (AS),
  • Imam al-Hasan (AS),
  • Imam al-Husain (AS),
  • Nine descendants of Imam al-Husain (AS).

There is no Two definitions to One Word "Ahlulbayt". So you must Reach a Conclusion that is based on Authentic Evidence to Understand their Identity. And When you do, You will know Who to Follow and Why. And who was the Successor after the prophet peace be upon him.

The "hadith" you gave regarding the names of the caliphs was from shia references so it's not hujjah on me, so I do not need to refute it.

Now come back to ulil amr thread

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

3. Our 12 caliphs are from QURAISH and yours are restricted to AHLE BAYT.

 

 

And your 12 caliphs are...?  furthermore, are you sure that Ahle- Bayht  are not Quriashi ?? i will appreciate an concise answer to both question thanks.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And your 12 caliphs are...? furthermore, are you sure that Ahle- Bayht are not Quriashi ?? i will appreciate an concise answer to both question thanks.....

Why did the hadeeth specify Quraish if it was only from a single family within a single tribe? Quraish is very general. Why didn't he say Bani Hashem? Why not "from my progeny"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

Why did the hadeeth specify Quraish if it was only from a single family within a single tribe? Quraish is very general. Why didn't he say Bani Hashem? Why not "from my progeny"?

 

Rasulallah, categorically made it clear on numerous occasion, that, his progeny were the true inheritors of his knowledge and leadership. for example: the hadith of Quran and Ahlu Bayht.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rasulallah, categorically made it clear on numerous occasion, that, his progeny were the true inheritors of his knowledge and leadership. for example: the hadith of Quran and Ahlu Bayht.

That wasn't my question.  You're using the red herring fallacy by changing the subject.  Why did RasulAllah (sawa) say that the 12 Caliphs would be from Quraish when Quraish is far more general than it needed to have been?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And your 12 caliphs are...? furthermore, are you sure that Ahle- Bayht are not Quriashi ?? i will appreciate an concise answer to both question thanks.....

AHLE BAYT are qureshi no doubt, but QURAISH is a big tribe. The rest of the points are made by brother mu3lam. Your " imams" were limited to " "AHLE BAYT".

That wasn't my question. You're using the red herring fallacy by changing the subject. Why did RasulAllah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå say that the 12 Caliphs would be from Quraish when Quraish is far more general than it needed to have been?

Very good points bro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "hadith" you gave regarding the names of the caliphs was from shia references so it's not hujjah on me, so I do not need to refute it.

Now come back to ulil amr thread

 

 

(1) I Made Clear proof to the Number of the Imams, and the Identity of Ahlulbayt From Sunni Reference.

(2) Would you like to show me your version of the Twelve Caliphs to Reject my point?

(3) I am at Uli al amr Thread.

(wasalam)  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(1) I Made Clear proof to the Number of the Imams, and the Identity of Ahlulbayt From Sunni Reference.

(2) Would you like to show me your version of the Twelve Caliphs to Reject my point?

(3) I am at Uli al amr Thread.

(wasalam)

YOU SAID

(1) I Made Clear proof to the Number of the Imams, and the Identity of Ahlulbayt From Sunni Reference.

(2) Would you like to show me your version of the Twelve Caliphs to Reject my point?

(3) I am at Uli al amr Thread.

MY ANSWER

1. You what?? You made "clear proof"?? Well Einstein our 12 caliphs were not restricted to AHLE BAYT

We do not recognise any imam who will be in occultation for over a thousand years.

The hadith says QURAISH and NOT AHLE BAYT or even banu hashim.

The name of our imam mahdi father will be abdullah r.a we have a hadith in sahih sittah and here it is:

Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: “The world will not come to an end until the Arabs are ruled by a man from my family whose name is the same as mine and whose father’s name is the same as my father’s.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, 11/370).

Your imam mahdi was the son of hasan Askari a.s

So I'm sorry but the hadith actually testifies against you.

2. Refer to point 1

3. Good. Stay there.

Edited by Just the truth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

YOU SAID

(1) I Made Clear proof to the Number of the Imams, and the Identity of Ahlulbayt From Sunni Reference.

(2) Would you like to show me your version of the Twelve Caliphs to Reject my point?

(3) I am at Uli al amr Thread.

MY ANSWER

1. You what?? You made "clear proof"?? Well Einstein our 12 caliphs were not restricted to AHLE BAYT

We do not recognise any imam who will be in occultation for over a thousand years.

The hadith says QURAISH and NOT AHLE BAYT or even banu hashim.

The name of our imam mahdi father will be abdullah r.a we have a hadith in sahih sittah and here it is:

Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: “The world will not come to an end until the Arabs are ruled by a man from my family whose name is the same as mine and whose father’s name is the same as my father’s.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, 11/370).

Your imam mahdi was the son of hasan Askari a.s

So I'm sorry but the hadith actually testifies against you.

2. Refer to point 1

3. Good. Stay there.

 

 

(1) Stop lying his father is Not Abdullah I proved it to you from Bukhari and Muslim. And you given no proof of this statement.

(2) Sunshine perhaps revise, as the Ahlulbayt are from Quriash.

(3) The Ahlulbayt are the 14 Infallible's including prophet Muhammad and Fatima al Zahraa peace be upon them.

(4) We read in Sunnah Ibn abu Dawod: 

 عن أم سلمة رضي الله عنها ، قالت : سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول : ( المهدي من عترتي ، من ولد فاطمة ) .سنن أبي داود (11/373) بسند صحيح 

 

Narrated from UmSalama ® She said: I heard the prophet Peace be upon him saying: "The Mahdi is from my family, from the sons of Fatima" 

-Hadith Sahih. in the foot notes.

As for the hadith you mentioned (his father Abdullah) is a Fabricated hadith:

 

 

ل طرقه تنتهي إلى عاصم بن أبي النجود صاحب القراءة المشهورة، وهو معروف عندهم بسوء حفظه.

 

It has a chain which ends to Asem ibn abi alnjod the person of well known reading, and he is a bad memories-er (according to the Sunnah) 

 

 

 

وإليك ما قالوه فيه:

 

قال الذهبي: ثَبْتٌ في القراءة، وهو في الحديث دون الثَّبْت، صدوق يهم.

 

The Dahabi (The Scholar you mentioned in the attempt to reject the hadith of the two Khalifas , which you failed to) said: "In the Hadith (he) from no  foundation ".(1 

 

 

 

 

 

وقال يحيي القطان: ما وجدتُ رجلاً اسمه عاصم إلا وجدته رديء الحفظ.

 

And yahya al Qatan said: " I have not found a man by the name of Asem only in bad Memorization. (A

 

 

 

 

 

وقال النسائي: ليس بحافظ

 

"And Al Nisai ( one of the Authors of the Six Sahihs) said : "he is not a memorize-er 

.

 

وقال الدارقطني: في حفظ عاصم شيء

 

And the Al Darqtne said: "There is something is Asems Memorization" a

.

 

وقال ابن خراش: في حديثه نكرة.

 

And Ibn Khrash said: "In the Hadith I reject" 1

 

 

وقال شعبة: حدَّثَنا عاصم بن أبي النجود وفي النفس ما فيها.

 

And Said the Shaa'ba: "From Asem ibn al Nojod, and in him is nothing" 2

 

 

وقال ابن سعد: ثقة إلا أنه كثير الخطأ في حديثه

And said Ibn Sa'ad: "Truly he is/has many wrongs in hadith" 3

.

 

وقال أبو حاتم: ليس محله أن يقال: ثقة. (راجع هذه الأقوال في ميزان الاعتدال 4/13-14)

 

And Abu Hatem said: "And he is no where to be claim that he is trust" 4

.

وقال يعقوب بن سفيان: في حديثه اضطراب، وهو ثقة.

 

Ibn yaqoob ibn Sufyan said: "In the Hadith is trouble, but trusted." 

 

وقد تكلَّم فيه ابن علية، وقال: كان كل من اسمه عاصم سيِّئ الحفظ

 

"And has been talked about him in ibn Aleya and said: "every Person in the name of Asem we had was a bad memoriser .

 

 

وقال العقيلي: لم يكن فيه إلا سوء الحفظ. (تهذيب التهذيب 5/35-36)

And Al Yaqel'ee said: "He has nothing but bad memorization" d.

 

 

 

:and many more Contradictions 

 

 

فإذا كان هذا هو حال راوي هذا الحديث، فكيف يعوَّل على روايته في مسألة مهمة، مع وضوح الأدلة الأخرى الدالة على أن المهدي المنتظر هو الإمام محمد بن الحسن العسكري عليهما السلام؟

 

 3- أن الرواية عن عاصم قد اختلفت من هذه الناحية، فمنهم من رواها عنه من دون ذكر: «واسم أبيه اسم أبي»، ومنهم من رواها عنه مشتملة على هذه الزيادة.

فقد أخرج الترمذي  بسنده عن سفيان بن عيينة، عن عاصم، عن زر، عن عبد الله، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: يلي رجل من أهل بيتي، يواطئ اسمه اسمي.

وأخرج أيضاً بسنده عن سفيان الثوري، عن عاصم بن بهدلة، عن زر، عن عبد الله، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: لا تذهب الدنيا حتى يملك العرب رجل من أهل بيتي، يواطئ اسمه اسمي. (سنن  الترمذي 4/505. قال الترمذي: هذا حديث حسن صحيح).

والذين رووا هذا الحديث عن عاصم خالياً من قوله: «واسم أبيه اسم أبي» كثيرون، منهم:

1- محمد بن إبراهيم أبو شهاب: في صحيح ابن حبان 13/284، وموارد الظمآن 2/839.

2- عثمان بن شبرمة: في صحيح ابن حبان 15/238، وموارد الظمآن 2/839.

3- حميد بن أبي غنية: في المعجم الأوسط للطبراني 5/135.

4- أبو الأحوص سلام بن سليم: في المعجم الصغير للطبراني 2/148، والمعجم الكبير 10/136.

5- عمرو بن مرة: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/131.

6- الأعمش: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/133.

7- أبو إسحاق الشيباني: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/133.

8- عبد الله بن حكيم بن جبير: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

9- شعبة: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

10- سفيان الثوري: في سنن أبي داود 4/107، والمعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

11- سفيان بن عيينة: في مسند أحمد 1/376، 430، والمعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

12- عبد الملك بن أبي غنية: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

13- عمر بن عبيد الطنافسي: في مسند أحمد 1/376، 448، والمعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/135.

14- واسط بن الحارث: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/135.

15- أبو بكر بن عياش: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/136.

16- معاذ بن هشام عن أبيه: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/133.

17- عمرو بن قيس: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/137.

18- عبد الله بن شبرمة: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/137.

وبعض الرواة الآخرين الذين رووا هذا الحديث عن عاصم مشتملاً على هذه الزيادة، رووه أيضاً عنه خالياً منها، ومن هؤلاء:

1-    عمر بن عبيد: روى الحديث بالزيادة في سنن أبي داود 4/106، ورواه بدونها كما تقدم في الرقم 13.

2-    أبو بكر بن عياش: رواه بالزيادة في سنن أبي داود 4/106، ورواه بدونها كما مرَّ في رقم 15.

3-    سفيان: رواه بالزيادة في سنن أبي داود 4/106، وصحيح ابن حبان 15/236، وبدونها كما مرَّ في 10، 11.

4-    عمرو بن أبي قيس: رواه بالزيادة كما في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/135، وبدونها كما مرَّ في رقم 17.

فإذا كان هذا هو حال الرواية في الاضطراب، فكيف يصح التعويل علىها في إثبات اسم والد الإمام المهدي المنتظر عليه السلام؟

 

4- أن هذه الرواية رواها رواة آخرون غير عاصم بن أبي النجود خالية من قوله: «واسم أبيه اسم أبي».

فقد أخرج البزار في مسنده 8/258 بسنده عن معاوية بن قرة عن أبيه رضي الله عنه، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: لتملأن الأرض جوراً وظلماً، فإذا مُلئتْ جوراً وظلماً بعث الله رجلاً مني، اسمه اسمي، أو اسمه اسم أبي، يملؤها عدلاً وقسطاً كما مُلئتْ جوراً وظلماً...

وأخرج الهيثمي في زوائده بسنده عن معاوية بن قرة عن أبيه قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: لتملأن الأرض جوراً وظلماً، فإذا مُلئتْ جوراً وظلماً بعث الله عزَّ وجل رجلاً مني، اسمه اسمي، أو اسم نبي، يملؤها قسطاً وعدلاً كما مُلئتْ جوراً... (مسند الحارث (زوائد الهيثمي) 8/258. إتحاف الخيرة المهرة 10/281).

 

 5ـ لو سلَّمنا بصحَّة هذه الرواية فإنه يمكن حملها على أن المراد بالاسم فيها هو الكنية، فربما أُطلق الاسم وأُريد به الكنية.

فقد أخرج البخاري في صحيحه 4/1976 بسنده عن سهل بن سعد، قال: ما كان لعلي اسم أحب إليه من أبي تراب، وإنْ كان ليفرح به إذا دُعي بها.

وفي صحيح مسلم 4/1874 قال سهل: ما كان لعلي اسم أحبَّ إليه من أبي التراب، وإنْ كان ليفرح إذا دُعي بها، فقال له: أخبرنا عن قصته لم سُمِّي أبا تراب؟ قال: جاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بيت فاطمة فلم يجد عليًّا في البيت...

إلى أن قال: فجاءه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو مضطجع قد سقط رداؤه عن شقِّه، فأصابه تراب، فجعل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يمسحه عنه، ويقول: قم أبا التراب، قم أبا التراب.

ومن الواضح أن (أبا تراب) كنية؛ لأن الكنية هي كل ما صُدِّر بأب أو أم، ولهذا قال ابن حجر في فتح الباري 11/58: قوله: (باب القائلة في المسجد) ذكر فيه حديث علي في سبب تكنيته أبا تراب.

وعليه فيكون المراد بالحديث هو أن كنية والد الإمام المهدي عليه السلام هي مثل كنية والد النبي صلى الله عليه وآله، فكلاهما أبو محمد.

ومن الواضح أن قوله: «يواطئ اسمُه اسمي، واسمُ أبيه اسمَ أبي»، عبارة طويلة غير صريحة في بيان الاسم، ومن السهل إيجازها بما هو أبلغ منها وأصْرَح، كقوله: «اسمه محمد بن عبد الله، أو محمد بن الحسن»، إلا أنه لما كان غرض النبي صلى الله عليه وآله قد تعلَّق بإبهام الاسم الصريح للإمام المهدي عليه السلام، خوفاً عليه من سلاطين الجور وأئمة الضلال، عبَّر عنه بما يحتمل أكثر من معنى؛ لتذهب العقول حيث شاءت؛ حتى لا تتيسَّر معرفته ولا يسهل تمييزه للطالبين لقتله عليه السلام والساعين للإمساك به.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
Link to comment
Share on other sites

(1) Stop lying his father is Not Abdullah I proved it to you from Bukhari and Muslim. And you given no proof of this statement.

(2) Sunshine perhaps revise, as the Ahlulbayt are from Quriash.

(3) The Ahlulbayt are the 14 Infallible's including prophet Muhammad and Fatima al Zahraa peace be upon them.

(4) We read in Sunnah Ibn abu Dawod:

عن أم سلمة رضي الله عنها ، قالت : سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول : ( المهدي من عترتي ، من ولد فاطمة ) .سنن أبي داود (11/373) بسند صحيح

Narrated from UmSalama ® She said: I heard the prophet Peace be upon him saying: "The Mahdi is from my family, from the sons of Fatima"

-Hadith Sahih. in the foot notes.

As for the hadith you mentioned (his father Abdullah) is a Fabricated hadith:

ل طرقه تنتهي إلى عاصم بن أبي النجود صاحب القراءة المشهورة، وهو معروف عندهم بسوء حفظه.

It has a chain which ends to Asem ibn abi alnjod the person of well known reading, and he is a bad memories-er (according to the Sunnah)

وإليك ما قالوه فيه:

قال الذهبي: ثَبْتٌ في القراءة، وهو في الحديث دون الثَّبْت، صدوق يهم.

The Dahabi (The Scholar you mentioned in the attempt to reject the hadith of the two Khalifas , which you failed to) said: "In the Hadith (he) from no foundation ".(1

وقال يحيي القطان: ما وجدتُ رجلاً اسمه عاصم إلا وجدته رديء الحفظ.

And yahya al Qatan said: " I have not found a man by the name of Asem only in bad Memorization. (A

وقال النسائي: ليس بحافظ

"And Al Nisai ( one of the Authors of the Six Sahihs) said : "he is not a memorize-er

.

وقال الدارقطني: في حفظ عاصم شيء

And the Al Darqtne said: "There is something is Asems Memorization" a

.

وقال ابن خراش: في حديثه نكرة.

And Ibn Khrash said: "In the Hadith I reject" 1

وقال شعبة: حدَّثَنا عاصم بن أبي النجود وفي النفس ما فيها.

And Said the Shaa'ba: "From Asem ibn al Nojod, and in him is nothing" 2

وقال ابن سعد: ثقة إلا أنه كثير الخطأ في حديثه

And said Ibn Sa'ad: "Truly he is/has many wrongs in hadith" 3

.

وقال أبو حاتم: ليس محله أن يقال: ثقة. (راجع هذه الأقوال في ميزان الاعتدال 4/13-14)

And Abu Hatem said: "And he is no where to be claim that he is trust" 4

.

وقال يعقوب بن سفيان: في حديثه اضطراب، وهو ثقة.

Ibn yaqoob ibn Sufyan said: "In the Hadith is trouble, but trusted."

وقد تكلَّم فيه ابن علية، وقال: كان كل من اسمه عاصم سيِّئ الحفظ

"And has been talked about him in ibn Aleya and said: "every Person in the name of Asem we had was a bad memoriser .

وقال العقيلي: لم يكن فيه إلا سوء الحفظ. (تهذيب التهذيب 5/35-36)

And Al Yaqel'ee said: "He has nothing but bad memorization" d.

:and many more Contradictions

فإذا كان هذا هو حال راوي هذا الحديث، فكيف يعوَّل على روايته في مسألة مهمة، مع وضوح الأدلة الأخرى الدالة على أن المهدي المنتظر هو الإمام محمد بن الحسن العسكري عليهما السلام؟

3- أن الرواية عن عاصم قد اختلفت من هذه الناحية، فمنهم من رواها عنه من دون ذكر: «واسم أبيه اسم أبي»، ومنهم من رواها عنه مشتملة على هذه الزيادة.

فقد أخرج الترمذي بسنده عن سفيان بن عيينة، عن عاصم، عن زر، عن عبد الله، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: يلي رجل من أهل بيتي، يواطئ اسمه اسمي.

وأخرج أيضاً بسنده عن سفيان الثوري، عن عاصم بن بهدلة، عن زر، عن عبد الله، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: لا تذهب الدنيا حتى يملك العرب رجل من أهل بيتي، يواطئ اسمه اسمي. (سنن الترمذي 4/505. قال الترمذي: هذا حديث حسن صحيح).

والذين رووا هذا الحديث عن عاصم خالياً من قوله: «واسم أبيه اسم أبي» كثيرون، منهم:

1- محمد بن إبراهيم أبو شهاب: في صحيح ابن حبان 13/284، وموارد الظمآن 2/839.

2- عثمان بن شبرمة: في صحيح ابن حبان 15/238، وموارد الظمآن 2/839.

3- حميد بن أبي غنية: في المعجم الأوسط للطبراني 5/135.

4- أبو الأحوص سلام بن سليم: في المعجم الصغير للطبراني 2/148، والمعجم الكبير 10/136.

5- عمرو بن مرة: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/131.

6- الأعمش: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/133.

7- أبو إسحاق الشيباني: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/133.

8- عبد الله بن حكيم بن جبير: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

9- شعبة: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

10- سفيان الثوري: في سنن أبي داود 4/107، والمعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

11- سفيان بن عيينة: في مسند أحمد 1/376، 430، والمعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

12- عبد الملك بن أبي غنية: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/134.

13- عمر بن عبيد الطنافسي: في مسند أحمد 1/376، 448، والمعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/135.

14- واسط بن الحارث: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/135.

15- أبو بكر بن عياش: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/136.

16- معاذ بن هشام عن أبيه: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/133.

17- عمرو بن قيس: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/137.

18- عبد الله بن شبرمة: في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/137.

وبعض الرواة الآخرين الذين رووا هذا الحديث عن عاصم مشتملاً على هذه الزيادة، رووه أيضاً عنه خالياً منها، ومن هؤلاء:

1- عمر بن عبيد: روى الحديث بالزيادة في سنن أبي داود 4/106، ورواه بدونها كما تقدم في الرقم 13.

2- أبو بكر بن عياش: رواه بالزيادة في سنن أبي داود 4/106، ورواه بدونها كما مرَّ في رقم 15.

3- سفيان: رواه بالزيادة في سنن أبي داود 4/106، وصحيح ابن حبان 15/236، وبدونها كما مرَّ في 10، 11.

4- عمرو بن أبي قيس: رواه بالزيادة كما في المعجم الكبير للطبراني 10/135، وبدونها كما مرَّ في رقم 17.

فإذا كان هذا هو حال الرواية في الاضطراب، فكيف يصح التعويل علىها في إثبات اسم والد الإمام المهدي المنتظر عليه السلام؟

4- أن هذه الرواية رواها رواة آخرون غير عاصم بن أبي النجود خالية من قوله: «واسم أبيه اسم أبي».

فقد أخرج البزار في مسنده 8/258 بسنده عن معاوية بن قرة عن أبيه رضي الله عنه، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: لتملأن الأرض جوراً وظلماً، فإذا مُلئتْ جوراً وظلماً بعث الله رجلاً مني، اسمه اسمي، أو اسمه اسم أبي، يملؤها عدلاً وقسطاً كما مُلئتْ جوراً وظلماً...

وأخرج الهيثمي في زوائده بسنده عن معاوية بن قرة عن أبيه قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: لتملأن الأرض جوراً وظلماً، فإذا مُلئتْ جوراً وظلماً بعث الله عزَّ وجل رجلاً مني، اسمه اسمي، أو اسم نبي، يملؤها قسطاً وعدلاً كما مُلئتْ جوراً... (مسند الحارث (زوائد الهيثمي) 8/258. إتحاف الخيرة المهرة 10/281).

5ـ لو سلَّمنا بصحَّة هذه الرواية فإنه يمكن حملها على أن المراد بالاسم فيها هو الكنية، فربما أُطلق الاسم وأُريد به الكنية.

فقد أخرج البخاري في صحيحه 4/1976 بسنده عن سهل بن سعد، قال: ما كان لعلي اسم أحب إليه من أبي تراب، وإنْ كان ليفرح به إذا دُعي بها.

وفي صحيح مسلم 4/1874 قال سهل: ما كان لعلي اسم أحبَّ إليه من أبي التراب، وإنْ كان ليفرح إذا دُعي بها، فقال له: أخبرنا عن قصته لم سُمِّي أبا تراب؟ قال: جاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بيت فاطمة فلم يجد عليًّا في البيت...

إلى أن قال: فجاءه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو مضطجع قد سقط رداؤه عن شقِّه، فأصابه تراب، فجعل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يمسحه عنه، ويقول: قم أبا التراب، قم أبا التراب.

ومن الواضح أن (أبا تراب) كنية؛ لأن الكنية هي كل ما صُدِّر بأب أو أم، ولهذا قال ابن حجر في فتح الباري 11/58: قوله: (باب القائلة في المسجد) ذكر فيه حديث علي في سبب تكنيته أبا تراب.

وعليه فيكون المراد بالحديث هو أن كنية والد الإمام المهدي عليه السلام هي مثل كنية والد النبي صلى الله عليه وآله، فكلاهما أبو محمد.

ومن الواضح أن قوله: «يواطئ اسمُه اسمي، واسمُ أبيه اسمَ أبي»، عبارة طويلة غير صريحة في بيان الاسم، ومن السهل إيجازها بما هو أبلغ منها وأصْرَح، كقوله: «اسمه محمد بن عبد الله، أو محمد بن الحسن»، إلا أنه لما كان غرض النبي صلى الله عليه وآله قد تعلَّق بإبهام الاسم الصريح للإمام المهدي عليه السلام، خوفاً عليه من سلاطين الجور وأئمة الضلال، عبَّر عنه بما يحتمل أكثر من معنى؛ لتذهب العقول حيث شاءت؛ حتى لا تتيسَّر معرفته ولا يسهل تمييزه للطالبين لقتله عليه السلام والساعين للإمساك به.

1. Let me look into that hadith. But still it doesn't matter because the hadith of twelve caliphs says QURAISH and abu bakr and co were all from QURAISH

2. Yea "sunshine" AHLE BAYT are from QURAISH but the prophet (pbuh) said QURAISH and NOT AHLE BAYT. QURAISH is a massive tribe and abu bakr umar usman were all from QURAISH so sorry you're wrong.

3. Prove imam ali hasan Hussein and FATIMA were born infalliable!!

4. All them hadiths say is imam mahdi a.s is from the lineage/family/ bloodline of FATIMA. Not one says he will go into occultation!!

5. We do not recognise any imam who will be in occultation for over a thousand years

Edited by Just the truth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...