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JameelShakir

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Thanks Muneermosvi. I think people that do the opposite are not really seeking knowledge. They just want to come and try to disprove the Shia view. However, I'm trying to get answers to a lot about it because it seems more and more like it's the correct view. 

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Thanks Muneermosvi. I think people that do the opposite are not really seeking knowledge. They just want to come and try to disprove the Shia view. However, I'm trying to get answers to a lot about it because it seems more and more like it's the correct view.

It happens from both sides. Let's not delude ourselves. The fact of the matter is to find the truth you have to open your mind to both the Sunni school of thought and Shia school of thought and decide for yourself which is better and which is more correct/logical, which is exactly what you're doing Jameel.

Is there something specific that you have a question about within Shia Islam? Questions should never lay unanswered. Anything you feel is wrong like the infallibility of the imams (AS) or the aspect of tawassul (intercession) etc. Please let us know. We can help answer.

Because when I was researching, my questions always laid unanswered and it led to constant doubts in my mind... Don't be afraid to ask whatever you like.

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That actually did bring up a good question. How exactly does the belief on intercession work? Like is the Shia view that the Imams can help the ummah even though they are not (physically) alive anymore? Or is it more so based on after death?

 

Also, is Ali ibn Abi Talib "higher" than the other Imams, or all they all equal? And with that, what role does their intercession play vs Muhammad's (pbuh) ?

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That actually did bring up a good question. How exactly does the belief on intercession work? Like is the Shia view that the Imams can help the ummah even though they are not (physically) alive anymore? Or is it more so based on after death?

Oh boy... This is a debated issue (get ready :!!!: ). All Muslims believe in the Intercession of the Prophet on the Day of Judgement and the Shi`a believe that the Ahl al-Bayt [as] will also be able to intercede for us on the Day of Judgement. This, essentially, is the intercession described in the Qur'an and Ahadith. Besides this, the Shi'a have developed the notion of Intercession in this world as well. Many books and articles have been written about it and in addition there are countless of lectures from speakers who all push for it. However, I personally don't buy into it. In reality there is no explicit proof. Not in the Qur'an and not in the authentic sayings of the `Aimmah [as]. All you have are implicit and derived theories and people mashing verses together. In fact, this type of Intercession appears to run contrary to both the Qur'an and Ahadith. I'd be more than happy to believe in it and make the most of it but the issue is I cannot do that and accept something as part of my Religion unless it was explicitly taught by Allah and His Representatives [as]. This is also similar to the practice of the Meccan Polytheists who worshipped Allah but also used Idols as intercessors to get closer to Him [swt]. Bottom line: I prefer to be on the safe side. Better say than sorry. Up too you, though. I've never been a gambling man.

 

Also, is Ali ibn Abi Talib "higher" than the other Imams, or all they all equal? And with that, what role does their intercession play vs Muhammad's (pbuh) ?

Yes, `Ali [a] is considered the Master of Successors and is superior to the rest of the `Aimmah [as] in this respect, just like Muhammad al-Mustafa is the Imam of all prophets and the greatest of them. In regards to your follow up question, I am not sure. There are, however, Ahadith which say the Prophet has guaranteed his Intercession for his Ummah.

Sincere advice: go and find a Shi'i Centre or Masjid asap (if you haven't found one already).

All the best, `Ali Musa (fellow convert :P )

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That actually did bring up a good question. How exactly does the belief on intercession work? Like is the Shia view that the Imams can help the ummah even though they are not (physically) alive anymore? Or is it more so based on after death?

Also, is Ali ibn Abi Talib "higher" than the other Imams, or all they all equal? And with that, what role does their intercession play vs Muhammad's (pbuh) ?

Alhamdulillah you are asking these questions. Some people believe that intercession is a form of shirk. This must be elaborated on.

First, I will present you with a verse from the Quran:

"But do not think of those that have been slain in God's cause as dead. Nay, they are alive! With their Sustainer have they their sustenance" (3:169).

We believe that the imams (AS) were lower than the prophet (pbuh) and that the prophet (pbuh) was the best of creation. We believe that the imams (AS) were sent to maintain the religion of Islam after his death and protect it from distortion. Also to lead the Ummah.

The following videos are a bit long but I guarantee they will answer your questions 100%.

Here is the answer to your intercession question:

And an answer to "is it a form of shirk?":

He also gave a lecture at MIT about many of the misconceptions of others about Shia Islam:

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Alhamdulillah you are asking these questions. Some people believe that intercession is a form of shirk. This must be elaborated on.

First, I will present you with a verse from the Quran:

"But do not think of those that have been slain in God's cause as dead. Nay, they are alive! With their Sustainer have they their sustenance" (3:169).

Where in this verse has Allah given us permission to call upon other than Him?

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Where in this verse has Allah given us permission to call upon other than Him?

If you are in need of help, say you're falling off a cliff and you need someone to pull you back up. won't you call them and tell them to help you? This verse indicates that we are not calling upon the dead (as some accuse us of worshipping the dead). Instead, we are calling upon people that are living under Allah's sustenance, and the fact that they can intercede for us is proven by other means. This verse doesn't prove that directly. I just wanted to use that as a premise for the argument.

Ammar explains everything very nicely in the lecture.

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Brother jameel in the form of salaam you were taught do you say salaam alayka upon thee to the Prophet?

As I want to discusses this calmly I will tell you I was anti tawwasul for sometime but later grew to more understanding of it and accept it. There are a few things but alto people do not easily understand with out a world view in line of pure tawheed. With this world view we see that all things are depending on Allah. So asking imam to pray to God or to intercede is very logical. If one things it is imam independent of God then that is shirk and haram but there is never anything wrong with asking someone to pray for us in the most simple form of tawwasul.

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Sorry for the late reply y'all. It was a crazy busy week. Just now getting some time to read through so more stuff and reply. 

 

@Maitham, I'm not really sure what you mean. I was not ever taught anything about salaams to/for the Prophet  (pbuh) . But maybe I'm just not understanding your question.

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If you are in need of help, say you're falling off a cliff and you need someone to pull you back up. won't you call them and tell them to help you? This verse indicates that we are not calling upon the dead (as some accuse us of worshipping the dead). Instead, we are calling upon people that are living under Allah's sustenance, and the fact that they can intercede for us is proven by other means. This verse doesn't prove that directly. I just wanted to use that as a premise for the argument.

Ammar explains everything very nicely in the lecture.

Imam `Ali [a] is going to save you from falling off a cliff? :donno: See, that's the issue. There is a difference. The one on the cliff has the ability to save you. Unless the Imam [a] is the one who can physically save you, I don't know how he prevent you from falling if you call on him [a].

That's nice and all but it doesn't answer the question. Brother, the verse doesn't indicate that. The verse no where indicates we an call on them. It says Martyrs are not dead in the sense that we understand and that we should not call them 'dead'. It says nothing about the permissibility of calling on them.

Sorry for the late reply y'all. It was a crazy busy week. Just now getting some time to read through so more stuff and reply. 

 

@Maitham, I'm not really sure what you mean. I was not ever taught anything about salaams to/for the Prophet  (pbuh) . But maybe I'm just not understanding your question.

In your pray, 5 times a day you send direct Salams to the Prophet .

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Imam `Ali [a] is going to save you from falling off a cliff? :donno: See, that's the issue. There is a difference. The one on the cliff has the ability to save you. Unless the Imam [a] is the one who can physically save you, I don't know how he prevent you from falling if you call on him [a].

That's nice and all but it doesn't answer the question. Brother, the verse doesn't indicate that. The verse no where indicates we an call on them. It says Martyrs are not dead in the sense that we understand and that we should not call them 'dead'. It says nothing about the permissibility of calling on them.

He has permission from Allah to intercede for us in this world. The cliff example was just that, an example. Imam Ali could very well make dua for us to Allah to save us from falling off the cliff. His dua has more weight than mine and therefore more chance of being answered. Since he is living, we can call upon him.

Don't try to downplay the verse. It doesn't simply say that they are "not dead", it says that they are alive.

Are you allowed to call on a living person for help? Yes? So we can call on martyrs for help. No matter how you try and bend the meaning to suit your argument, the ayat stays rigid and firm.

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Yes is this how you say it as Sunni method?

Atta-hiyyatu lillahi was-salawatu wat-tayyibatu As-salamu 'alaika ayyuh-an-Nabiyyu wa rahmat-ullahi wa barakatuhu As-salamu 'alaina wa 'alaa 'Ibaadillah-is-salihin. Ash-hadu-al-la-Ilaha illAllahu wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan 'abduhu wa Rasuluh. meaning All worships - oral, physical and momentary - are for Allah. Allah's peace be upon you, O Prophet, and His mercy and blessings. Peace be on us and on all righteous servants of Allah. I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger.

Notice the one part is talking to the Prophet (sawa) directly this shows us that we can somehow communicate with the Prophet (sawa) we hold the same belief that we we can sent a spoken letter to our Imams (as) so one form of tawwasul is to ask them to intercede for us. Them being close to God and us being their followers it is a acceptable thing to do. However it can never replace asking Allah and I would see it more as an additional support to asking Allah just like asking many people to do dua for me and asking Allah myself.

Edited by Maitham

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He has permission from Allah to intercede for us in this world. The cliff example was just that, an example. Imam Ali could very well make dua for us to Allah to save us from falling off the cliff. His dua has more weight than mine and therefore more chance of being answered. Since he is living, we can call upon him.

Don't try to downplay the verse. It doesn't simply say that they are "not dead", it says that they are alive.

Are you allowed to call on a living person for help? Yes? So we can call on martyrs for help. No matter how you try and bend the meaning to suit your argument, the ayat stays rigid and firm.

I'm not the one bending anything. Your the one claiming we can call on other than Allah, not me.

Look bro, I wouldn't have an issue with this at all if its what the Imams [a] taught. However, there is no explicit proof from the Qur'an or the authentic traditions of the `Aimma [a]. That's where the problem lies. The Imams never encouraged it nor did they do it themselves.

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Yes Maitham that is what I was taught. I see the point you're making too. :-)

Is it different for Shia Islam? Insha'Allah I'm gonna go to Juma'a at a Shia place this Friday or next and I'm kinda nervous lol

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Yes Maitham that is what I was taught. I see the point you're making too. :-)

Is it different for Shia Islam? Insha'Allah I'm gonna go to Juma'a at a Shia place this Friday or next and I'm kinda nervous lol

 

I come from a Sunni background, and I can say that the khutba won't be too different. But the prayer will have differences. Be ready to do qunoot(s), pray `Asr after jum`a prayer, and recite collective du`a's after each prayer. Also, you'll learn to love the loud collective blessing on the Prophet (pbuh) and his family. Allaaaaaahumma salli `ala Muhammaaaad, wa aaaaaaali Muhammaaad!!!

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Qa'im is that like how in Ahlus-Sunnah there is great joy in getting "Sallahu alahi wa salaam" out?

Yup :)

But it's very similar because there is already:

"allahumma salli ala sayyidina Muhammad wa ala ahle sayyidina Muhammad Kama salaytahu Ibrahim wa ala ahle Ibrahim"

Have you heard that before? We say similar things. Basically the same meaning.

This is the Sunni tradition:

Prophet Muhammad (s) was asked by his Companions:

“How should we invoke blessings for you?” … He said:

“Say: ‘O Allah! Send Your blessings on Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad, as You sent Your blessings on Abraham and on the Family of Abraham, for You are the Most Praiseworthy, the Most Glorious.’”[sahih al-Bukhari, volume 4, book 55, number 589]

Edited by BuggyLemon

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Qa'im is that like how in Ahlus-Sunnah there is great joy in getting "Sallahu alahi wa salaam" out?

 

Similar, but not quite. In all the Sunni joints I've been to, only about half the people say the "salallahu `alayhi wa salim" when they hear the Prophet's name, and it's said very quickly under their breaths. In Shi`a centres, it's loud, collective, and said in full.

 

Listen to the first minute of this lecture (or any lecture, really) and you'll hear it:

 

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Bro, just a heads up. When you start going to Shi'i centres more often you will get into the habit of reciting the Salawat out loud. Was very awkward for me when I was at my old Sunni Mosque and after the prayer they mentioned the Prophet's name and I began the Salawat: 'Allaaaaaaaaaaahumma.... *fades into silence when realising no one is joining me*' :mellow:

LOL :lol:

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Thanks for being so open minded. It's rare nowadays.

 

Shi`a Islam is based on five articles of faith (usūl al-dīn): (1) God’s unity (tawhīd), (2) God’s justice (adāla), (3) prophethood (nubuwwa), (4) leadership (imāma) and (5) reckoning day (yawm al-qiyāma).

 

It is also built upon five pillars: (1) Wilaya (recognizing Allah's oneness, His prophets, the Imams, obeying His viceroys and going against His enemies), (2) Salat (five daily prayers), (3) Zakat (alms-giving), (4) Sawm (fasting the month of Ramadan), and (5) Hajj (pilgrimage).

 

We take from Islam from our beloved Prophet (pbuh) and the two weighty things he left behind: the Noble Qur'an, and his Ahl al-Bayt (as).

 

as-salaam

 

If this is adhered to then Muslims shall become united and no unbelievers would prevail over them. This is what I am certain about.

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Yes Maitham that is what I was taught. I see the point you're making too. :-)

Is it different for Shia Islam? Insha'Allah I'm gonna go to Juma'a at a Shia place this Friday or next and I'm kinda nervous lol

awesome akhi :) and yes our taslim and tashahud is a little different it is one way we cat say taslim is that part to the nabi and then we say upon the saliheen. Shia center are nice what center are you attending khorjas run some nice ones and people are nice inshallah it will be good for you :)

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as-salaam

 

If this is adhered to then Muslims shall become united and no unbelievers would prevail over them. This is what I am certain about.

 

Greetings ThePrime,

 

Sorry to intrude, just wondering...  Who is an unbeliever to you?

and what does it mean to 'prevail over them'?

 

Salaam,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Greetings ThePrime,

Sorry to intrude, just wondering... Who is an unbeliever to you?

and what does it mean to 'prevail over them'?

Salaam,

CLynn

Islamophobic Muslim haters, Lynn. Those who hate Islam and try to make others hate it as well without even knowing what it really is. The ones that are trying to destroy Islam. People like Anjem Choudary. Edited by BuggyLemon

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Islamophobic Muslim haters, Lynn. Those who hate Islam and try to make others hate it as well without even knowing what it really is. The ones that are trying to destroy Islam. People like Anjem Choudary.

So everyone who doesn't hate Islam is a believer? Not sure if that's correct.

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So everyone who doesn't hate Islam is a believer? Not sure if that's correct.

You are making needless assumptions and putting words into my mouth...

 

I was analysing the referral to one group in the specific context of the statement made. The fact that I identified this one group (Islam haters) as the object of the statement "prevail over them", doesn't automatically indicate that all other unbelievers that do not hate Islam are believers... i don't know what led you to believe this. The word unbeliever used in that context was not referring to the entire population of unbelievers. Only the ones that seek to fight against the Muslims. That is why he used the word "prevail".

 

I don't know why you feel that it is so necessary to go against me in every statement that I make. I've seen this repeatedly in the past... Is there something that I have done to offend you?

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You are making needless assumptions and putting words into my mouth...

Sorry. Wasn't my intention.

 

I was analysing the referral to one group in the specific context of the statement made. The fact that I identified this one group (Islam haters) as the object of the statement "prevail over them", doesn't automatically indicate that all other unbelievers that do not hate Islam are believers... i don't know what led you to believe this. The word unbeliever used in that context was not referring to the entire population of unbelievers. Only the ones that seek to fight against the Muslims. That is why he used the word "prevail".

Alright. I think ThePrime may have been speaking more generally about unbelievers and not only Islam haters. But you're right, they certainly fit into that category. Perhaps we should wait for the response from ThePrime to clarify the statement, since the question was directed at him/her.

And this Anjem Choudary character falls into the above category? You identified the group as 'Islamaphobic Muslim haters' and cited Choudary as an example, correct? You consider him an 'unbeliever'?

 

I don't know why you feel that it is so necessary to go against me in every statement that I make. I've seen this repeatedly in the past... Is there something that I have done to offend you?

I have no idea what you are talking about. You must be referring to one specific topic that I hold an opposing belief on. Don't take it to heart if I disagree with you. Majority don't side me with me on that issue anyway but that's not a problem. I already stated I am prepared to change my beliefs. Lack of proof is preventing me from doing so.

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Sorry. Wasn't my intention.

 

Alright. I think ThePrime may have been speaking more generally about unbelievers and not only Islam haters. But you're right, they certainly fit into that category. Perhaps we should wait for the response from ThePrime to clarify the statement, since the question was directed at him/her.

And this Anjem Choudary character falls into the above category? You identified the group as 'Islamaphobic Muslim haters' and cited Choudary as an example, correct? You consider him an 'unbeliever'?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. You must be referring to one specific topic that I hold an opposing belief on. Don't take it to heart if I disagree with you. Majority don't side me with me on that issue anyway but that's not a problem. I already stated I am prepared to change my beliefs. Lack of proof is preventing me from doing so.

Ok, my apologies. A misunderstanding :) .

 

Yes, Anjem Choudary certainly hates Islam lol. He doesn't even know Arabic and he pretends to be an "Islamic scholar" and preaches lies that degrade Islam. He probably has an agenda. Maybe working for some Islamophobe group to spread the propaganda.

 

I do consider him an unbeliever because he supports terrorists that do everything and anything against Islamic values.

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I haven't actually decided on one yet. So far I found 3 in the Seattle metro area though. Lol I can imagine that it would throw you off a bit when you realized that no one else was saying it with you. How do you feel when you go to a Sunni mosque and don't pray with your arms folded?

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I haven't actually decided on one yet. So far I found 3 in the Seattle metro area though. Lol I can imagine that it would throw you off a bit when you realized that no one else was saying it with you. How do you feel when you go to a Sunni mosque and don't pray with your arms folded?

I would imagine it would be perfectly okay as the Maliki madhab does that too.

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I haven't actually decided on one yet. So far I found 3 in the Seattle metro area though. Lol I can imagine that it would throw you off a bit when you realized that no one else was saying it with you. How do you feel when you go to a Sunni mosque and don't pray with your arms folded?

that part was ok. The part I felt strange about was saying bismillah aloud when doing separate prayers.

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You'll havr to explain that to me.

you mean the bismillah well the Sunni majority mashed I use to attend the man who lead the prayer would either say it silent or leave out the bismillah part before every surah the Shia believe this must be said out loud always so I felt a little uncomfortable saying it.

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