Hijab In Christianity & Islam

[Grief]

Thought it might be informative :).

JazakAllah.

[PenOfTruth]

one of my favourites, it is so important for everyone to know that the bible talks about the veil. and orders the veil. especially when only Muslims are known for covering themselves.  

[Mu3lam]

It is obligatory for Christian women to cover their heads while in Church.

Bible says so.  

Look at Servidor's posts in that thread with girls in hijab.

 

Christian hijab, however, is nowhere near as strict as Islamic hijab.  For one, it's not required everywhere.  Only in religious settings.  Also, there is no "awra" code.  The rule is modest clothing + head covered.  Hair can be showing, arms can be showing, neck can be showing, etc.  The idea is modesty.  Not strict Islamic hijab.

[Hoppsan]

Thought it might be informative :).

JazakAllah.

I am no fan of Paul. But he occupies a big part of the New Testament. And I think he really managed to manipulate the Gospel. But as for the 11th chapter of the letter to the Chorint, at least he is not stupid enough to suggest that women always have to wear hijab. But he obviously for some reason finds it appropriate that they wear it during the services.

I find it interesting that Muslims obviously get so sexually excited when seeing the hair of a woman. I believe with education, they will learn to control their feelings. We have a problem in my country with Muslim refugees, not knowing how to treat women as equals. So of course an enlightened interpretation of the Quran is desirable.

[Grief]

I am no fan of Paul. But he occupies a big part of the New Testament. And I think he really managed to manipulate the Gospel. But as for the 11th chapter of the letter to the Chorint, at least he is not stupid enough to suggest that women always have to wear hijab. But he obviously for some reason finds it appropriate that they wear it during the services.

I find it interesting that Muslims obviously get so sexually excited when seeing the hair of a woman. I believe with education, they will learn to control their feelings. We have a problem in my country with Muslim refugees, not knowing how to treat women as equals. So of course an enlightened interpretation of the Quran is desirable.

Yeah I think you need to be banned I'm afraid. You have a lot of blind hate towards Islam out of your ignorance. Puppet of the immoral, not to mention oppressive to women, Western ideology sadly. And here I was thinking it was possible to discuss with you.

You are more of an oppressor of women than anyone else to be honest so before you talk about equality, look at your own twisted beliefs. Women should be objectified right? They should be half-naked on TV so that men can derive pleasure from them right? They should wear right clothes so that men can appease their lusts right? This is 'freedom' and 'equality'. I honestly don't know how much more deluded a person can get.

If you watch the lecture without your half-damaged brain cells getting in the way of logical, rational arguments, you might learn a thing or two.

Firstly, Muslims are more educated than most (the scholars that pass the rulings at least). And certainly tenfold more educated than you (you seem to be quite ignorant).

And secondly, no thank you, we will not change Gods word because of our lustful desires like you and your likeminded morons did to the Bible because we are not above God as you think you are.

Edited September 15, 2013 by BuggyLemon

[PenOfTruth]

I am no fan of Paul. But he occupies a big part of the New Testament. And I think he really managed to manipulate the Gospel. But as for the 11th chapter of the letter to the Chorint, at least he is not stupid enough to suggest that women always have to wear hijab. But he obviously for some reason finds it appropriate that they wear it during the services.

I find it interesting that Muslims obviously get so sexually excited when seeing the hair of a woman. I believe with education, they will learn to control their feelings. We have a problem in my country with Muslim refugees, not knowing how to treat women as equals. So of course an enlightened interpretation of the Quran is desirable.

 

ok, 1) the veil is not only about covering the hair, its the whole body, everything man is attracted to is hidden, and through what education? Allah swt is the creator and he knows what goes on in the hearts of all men, I assume you do?

 

2) a women who wants self- respect can get it through the full veil. gives her the chance to think about her personality, rather than her looks, gives her the self respect that is so high, to a point where no one can see her body- only her personality. if you think the veil is stupid- please show me why :)

 

3) men do not get sexually exited because of women hair, its the whole body of women.

Edited September 15, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[placid]

Hi Lemon,

 

I listened to the speaker in the video and was quite impressed. He seemed very familiar with the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 11, and made some good points.

He did something that is seldom done (which we can discuss later), --- he acknowledged the Holy Spirit of God as the Messenger between God and Paul.

--- (That would be somewhat comparable to the angel Gabriel being the messenger between God and Muhammad, would it not?)

 

--- The thing he did, which was an ‘exaggeration’ of the verses, was when he said that it was a Law, given to Paul for all Churches. --- Paul did not make or give any new laws, but just instruction to the Churches, --- as in this case to learn proper respect, however, it was the order of respect and worship for all believers, and it was the ‘custom’ in the Churches.

--- (Something not mentioned is that the loose living seaport city of Corinth was a city with low moral standards. --- The prostitutes went bareheaded, and no doubt flaunted their hair as sensuous women do.)

 

In Paul’s teaching about the covering of the head, at no time did he use the word ‘veil,’ because he wasn’t talking about a veil. --- He was talking about a covering on the head, --- a hat or scarf that would be a sign of submission to her husband, and to God. --- A woman’s hair is her glory, and her glory was not to be exposed. --- This covering was not necessarily to cover all the hair, but to show submission and respect to her husband, and obedience to God.

 

Paul gave this order of headship in the Church. --- God is the head of Christ, --- Christ is the head of man, --- man is the head of his wife, --- (and of course, the children.) --- (This was for the family that honored the father as the head of the household, --- as they did when this was written.)

 

A man is not to cover his head in his worship to God, --- but the woman was to cover her head in respect of her husband and in submission to God.

This example teaches the children the proper order as they grow up in a family where they worship together.

--- The head covering is a symbol of piety and modesty, --- which is what I believe the Hijab represents. --- Paul said again in 1 Timothy 2:

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;

⁹ in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,

¹⁰ but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

[Grief]

Thanks a lot for the informative response Placid. I learn something new everyday from you :P.

Can you also then give me a brief account (from the Christian perspective) of the reason nuns cover their hair and dress like Muslim women do? Does it come from another place within the Bible? I thought that the Corinthians passage was the one that they were deriving their dress from, but it seems I was mistaken.

Thanks again for the other perspective on this.

[placid]

Hi Lemon,

 

Here is a little info on the headdress, which encircles the face and has a collar.

The woman would take an oath to become a Nun, in service to God, by prayer, meditation, --- while showing modesty and humility in their service to others.

However, this headdress was worn by others than Nuns as well.

 

--- Quote: Some wear a white wimple, which "encircles" the face

A wimple is a garment worn around the neck and chin, and which usually covers the head (but not the face). Its use developed among women in early medieval Europe. At many stages of medieval culture it was unseemly for a married woman to show her hair. A wimple might be elaborately starched, and creased and folded in prescribed ways.

The wimple, also spelled whimple, was a very common head covering for women of the Middle Ages (c. 500–c. 1500). Popular from the twelfth through the fifteenth centuries, wimples were light, usually made of linen or silk, which were fastened all the way around the neck, up to the chin. Sometimes the bottom edge of the wimple was tucked into the collar of the dress. The wimple provided both protection from the weather and modesty.

--- After the second Vatican Council, many religious institutes chose in their own regulations to no longer wear the traditional habit and did away with choosing a religious name. --- End of quote.

 

Their outer body garment has some variations, and to my knowledge they do not originate from any Scripture verses, --- but it is the symbol of modesty, --- as is the Hijab, and is also ‘a protection from molestation.’

--- I think of the Hijab, not so much as a ‘religious symbol’ but more as a symbol of modesty and an expression of submission to those over them, --- and to God..

 

It used to be the custom for women to wear hats in Churches and often in the street. --- The Amish and the Mennonites still wear a head covering and the Salvation Army women used to wear a cap,

--- When a symbol loses its significance, it just becomes a thing ‘to do, or not to do.’ --- Like Christian Baptism, --- it is to be the ‘outward expression of an inner conviction,’ --- and unless there is a belief in the heart and a willing obedience to serve God, --- it becomes a ‘ritual.’  

--- In our western culture we have lost our morality, --- except for the ‘multitudes’ that still acknowledge God as our Creator and Sustainer.

--- So the Hijab is hanging on to a good ‘custom’ that we have lost in the West.

 

I find no support in the Bible or the Quran for the Burka. --- Such a garment is really against nature, because since the beginning, people are recognized by their faces. --- It could also be a disguise for males, for the purpose of shop lifting or robbery, etc.

--- What are your thoughts on the Hijab and Burka?

[PenOfTruth]

Hi Lemon,

 

I find no support in the Bible or the Quran for the Burka. --- Such a garment is really against nature, because since the beginning, people are recognized by their faces. --- It could also be a disguise for males, for the purpose of shop lifting or robbery, etc.

--- What are your thoughts on the Hijab and Burka?

 

you are right, it does not say anything in the quran about the burqa, nor has it been ordered. me being a women, personally, im not sure if im for or against it. the women who wear it describe it as 'being closer to god' and such. and I agree, because me covering my body, I find that im closer to god spiritually (hard to explain). also, our great women in history covered their faces- I guess it is a way of being so highly self respected, that even the face is left for the self. but I must say, in this generation- we should respect that the face is a way of communication and respect the fact the the west feel the communication is through the face.  

 

you seem known in Christianity, would you mind if I ask you a couple of question that im wondering about?

[Grief]

Hi Lemon,

Here is a little info on the headdress, which encircles the face and has a collar.

The woman would take an oath to become a Nun, in service to God, by prayer, meditation, --- while showing modesty and humility in their service to others.

However, this headdress was worn by others than Nuns as well.

--- Quote: Some wear a white wimple, which "encircles" the face

A wimple is a garment worn around the neck and chin, and which usually covers the head (but not the face). Its use developed among women in early medieval Europe. At many stages of medieval culture it was unseemly for a married woman to show her hair. A wimple might be elaborately starched, and creased and folded in prescribed ways.

The wimple, also spelled whimple, was a very common head covering for women of the Middle Ages (c. 500–c. 1500). Popular from the twelfth through the fifteenth centuries, wimples were light, usually made of linen or silk, which were fastened all the way around the neck, up to the chin. Sometimes the bottom edge of the wimple was tucked into the collar of the dress. The wimple provided both protection from the weather and modesty.

--- After the second Vatican Council, many religious institutes chose in their own regulations to no longer wear the traditional habit and did away with choosing a religious name. --- End of quote.

Their outer body garment has some variations, and to my knowledge they do not originate from any Scripture verses, --- but it is the symbol of modesty, --- as is the Hijab, and is also ‘a protection from molestation.’

--- I think of the Hijab, not so much as a ‘religious symbol’ but more as a symbol of modesty and an expression of submission to those over them, --- and to God..

It used to be the custom for women to wear hats in Churches and often in the street. --- The Amish and the Mennonites still wear a head covering and the Salvation Army women used to wear a cap,

--- When a symbol loses its significance, it just becomes a thing ‘to do, or not to do.’ --- Like Christian Baptism, --- it is to be the ‘outward expression of an inner conviction,’ --- and unless there is a belief in the heart and a willing obedience to serve God, --- it becomes a ‘ritual.’

--- In our western culture we have lost our morality, --- except for the ‘multitudes’ that still acknowledge God as our Creator and Sustainer.

--- So the Hijab is hanging on to a good ‘custom’ that we have lost in the West.

I find no support in the Bible or the Quran for the Burka. --- Such a garment is really against nature, because since the beginning, people are recognized by their faces. --- It could also be a disguise for males, for the purpose of shop lifting or robbery, etc.

--- What are your thoughts on the Hijab and Burka?

Well, as Shia our firm belief is that the burka is not commanded in Islam and the only necessary thing is the Hijab which is basically covering the hair and modest dressing. So you will seldom see one of the women of our group wearing the burka.

[CLynn]

A man is not to cover his head in his worship to God, --- but the woman was to cover her head in respect of her husband and in submission to God.

 

Greetings Placid,

Going off topic a little bit, but this raised a question for me.  I am familiar with the instruction for men in the Bible, not to cover the head, while a woman was required.

 

I wonder if you,

or may Yoel might help us,

to know then,

why the Jewish men wear a yamulka and why this tradition was not carried forward to the Christians?

 

Thanks and salaam,

CLynn

[placid]

Hi PenOfTruth,

 

I will be happy to try to answer your questions

[PenOfTruth]

Hi PenOfTruth,

 

I will be happy to try to answer your questions

 

 

 

 

thankyou.

 

1) how do you prove the 'head covering' is not a veil, but a hat or a scarf? as it is hard to know when his words are not precise- I am sure he knew a hat or a scarf wont make a difference on the appearance of a woman.

 

2) you said: "Paul did not make or give any new laws, but just instruction to the Churches, --- as in this case to learn proper respect, however, it was the order of respect and worship for all believers, and it was the ‘custom’ in the Churches. "

- so, the bible is not book of law? not instructions to humanity? at the end of the day, this it not his words and it was relevant to put in the book that was a guide all Christians. so if someone opens a bible, doesn't one know what to follow and what is 'custom' ?

 

3) you said: "(Something not mentioned is that the loose living seaport city of Corinth was a city with low moral standards. --- The prostitutes went bareheaded, and no doubt flaunted their hair as sensuous women do.)"

- so a part of the bible was only to those people?

 

4) can you pleas explain more when you said (That would be somewhat comparable to the angel Gabriel being the messenger between God and Muhammad, would it not?)""

 

sorry for your time :)

Edited September 17, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[Mu3lam]

Greetings Placid,

Going off topic a little bit, but this raised a question for me.  I am familiar with the instruction for men in the Bible, not to cover the head, while a woman was required.

 

I wonder if you,

or may Yoel might help us,

to know then,

why the Jewish men wear a yamulka and why this tradition was not carried forward to the Christians?

 

Thanks and salaam,

CLynn

The command for men to leave their heads uncovered comes in the New Testament, a book that the Jews reject.  Hence, they don't care and can wear what they want.

[placid]

Hi Clynn,

 

You can check for the meaning of Kippah or Yamulka on Wikipedia or other sites.

It is worn part-time or all the time by some Jews, --- but just by certain groups 

 

It is supposed to show reverence for God, --- which is about the opposite to Christian men who are to preach, teach, or pray, with their head uncovered to honor God.

 

--- As our custom is, we don't enter any Church, sacred meeting, or Funeral Parlor with our heads covered, --- in fact we don't enter homes or many building wearing a hat, do we? --- The concept is that caps and hats are basically for outdoors. 

[Haydar Husayn]

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234983478-hijab-and-early-christian-patristic-tradition/

[CLynn]

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234983478-hijab-and-early-christian-patristic-tradition/

 

Greetings Haydar,

Thank you for that link. :)

[placid]

Hi Pen,

 

Good questions, starting with this:

1) how do you prove the 'head covering' is not a veil, but a hat or a scarf? as it is hard to know when his words are not precise- I am sure he knew a hat or a scarf won’t make a difference on the appearance of a woman.

 

Response: --- Paul did not use the word ‘vail’ or ‘veil’ because the covering was to be on the top of the head as a symbol, --- simply a sign or token of submission.

--- It could not have been a veil to cover the face, neither is a Hijab a veil since it is not a face covering. --- This is confusing to some as they speak of the Hijab as a “veil,” --- but a veil is meant to hide the face, which is against nature. People are always recognized by their face, are they not? --- And neither the Bible nor the Quran say that women should cover their face, do they? --- Are there verses in the Quran that say a Hijab should be worn, or it simply cultural? --- Please let me know if there are some verses.

 

Paul mentions a veil from Exodus when Moses came down the mountain from God In Exodus 34:^.

³⁵ And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again,

--- So Paul comments on this in 2 Corinthians 3:

13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at (the glow on his face) the end of what was passing away.

 

Quote: --- I am sure he knew a hat or a scarf won’t make a difference on the appearance of a woman.

 

Response: --- The head covering was not intended to change the modest attire of the women, --- but he taught this in 1 Timothy 2:

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,

¹⁰ but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

--- (This doesn’t speak of covering the head, or hair, but they are not to project their outer beauty --- to contradict their modesty and piety, or ‘inner beauty.’)

 

Also the Apostle Peter said in 1 Peter 3:

3 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,

² when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear (respect).

³ Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel—

⁴ rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

⁵ For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves,

 

--- (They both mention the arranging of the hair, and the adorning of the body to make themselves attractive, as being improper, --- but by wearing ‘modest clothing’ and proper conduct, they allow their hidden beauty to shine forth.)

--- Love and compassion for others is expressed through the face and eyes, --- so at no time was the face meant to be covered, was it?

--- (I am interested in your further comments on the Hijab.)

 

Placid

[Yoel]

Two more cents:

 

1. Hijab is very similar, if not identical, for married women in traditional Judaism. Many Jewish women used to wear even various versions of niqab 100 years ago, especially in Central Asia and North Africa, and they did it on principle, as a part of their adherence to Judaism. Unmarried girls, however, don't cover their hair.

 

Another major difference from Islam is the contemporary prevalence of wigs instead of veils in many Orthodox Jewish communities. It's a relatively new fashion, which started about 150 years ago. Some communities are still against wigs. For example, Neturei Karta and Toldos Aron women shave their hair (an overkill, IMHO) and wear, respectively, white and black veils. A minor difference is that contemporary Orthodox Jewish women wear stockings under skirts, which have to be below their knees, but not pants of any kind.

 

Here is a picture of Ruth Blau (Rus Bloy, as we really pronounce it), a famous French convert to Judaism, together with her husband Rabbi Amrom Blau (Bloy), the founder of Neturei Karta:

 

LINK

 

Just like in liberal currents of Islam, there are liberal modern circles in Orthodox Judaism who argue that traditional standards of tsnies (the Jewish equivalent of hijab) are not a necessary part of religion, because people in different times had different ideas about modesty. The logic of the arguments seems exactly the same, as far as I understand.

 

2. Women used to follow hijab-like standards in Russian Orthodox Christianity before the 1917 revolution and even after, kind of similar to the Iranian loose type of hijab with some hair sticking out. It's becoming now popular in Russian conservative Christian circles. Here is a picture of a stereotypical Christian girl from a Russian Orthodox website:

 

LINK

Edited September 18, 2013 by Yoel

[Yoel]

Hi Clynn,

 

You can check for the meaning of Kippah or Yamulka on Wikipedia or other sites.

It is worn part-time or all the time by some Jews, --- but just by certain groups 

 

It is supposed to show reverence for God, --- which is about the opposite to Christian men who are to preach, teach, or pray, with their head uncovered to honor God.

 

Yarmlke (יאַרמלקע) or Kapl (קאַפּל) is worn today full-time by virtually all Orthodox Jews, most of whom would argue that Jews who don't do it are acting wrong and sinful. Hundreds of thousands or Hasidic Jews wear it even while sleeping and double-cover their head most of the time, especially in outside, wearing a fur hat or a shtrayml over a large black yarmlke. It's the standard practice in Satmar, the largest Hasidic group in the world.

 

Various types of yarmlkes represent a certain dress code. For example, people in many Hasidic communities never called them a "kippah" and would never wear a knitted colorful thingy known in Israel as "kipah srugah", because it's strongly associated with settler-type "religious" Zionism. However, a particular kind of large white knitted yarmlkes was common in some parts on Ukraine and is considered very traditional, especially in Breslov.

 

Headcovering for men was not a universal practice though. In many historical Jewish communities men didn't cover their heads or only did it during prayer. This was the common custom in Germany and some other Western European countries. Traditional Jewish men in North Africa would wear a turban, but I don't think they believes that headcovering is required. Many Central-Asian Jews still wear various Jewish varieties of tubeteikas. 

 

Note also that while Christian laymen are required to uncover their head at the church, the clergy has the exact opposite tradition, especially in Orthodox Christianity, where priests wear an entire range of various vestments, depending on their rank in the church hierarchy.

 

However, all this stuff is not directly related to modesty issues.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Yoel

[CLynn]

Greetings Yoel,

 

Thanks for you input. :)

___________________

 

 

So in contemplation, I have come  to think that the Jewish men must have worn the yarmulka as a way of 'setting themselves apart' as men of God, as they had been commanded to do.  To carry this thought forward it would seem that the gentile men, the ones that were to become 'Christians' did not do this, as a way of setting themselves apart from the Jews?  And that, as Yoel has pointed out, men of the church... i.e., the 'men in the service of God' did, and still do, wear these head coverings.  It seems to me that all these things are not by command of God so much as man's way of abiding by God's commands... man's way of setting people apart one from another.  All a very interesting study.  :)

__________________________________________

 

 

I just finished reading at the link that Haydar provided.  It was very interesting reading.  My thoughts;

 

I think these things changed as we evolved, i.e. as it became apparent that men could, and should, be expected to control themselves, and that women should be allowed to retain their dignity without having to hide themselves and not make eye contact.  In other words respect and recognition for women grew, and men were required to become civilized creatures.

It is rather interesting that these things became requirements, when Yahshua Himself quite obviously had no troubles being in the company of women, and Himself demonstrated that men could be in the company of women without having the need to take advantage of them, or to treat them as objects for sex only.

It was funny to me to read the thread, as if men had no control whatsoever of themselves and could not be expected to do so.  Thank goodness people evolved.  I do still believe it is incumbent upon us not to cause one another to stumble, so provocative dress is quite obviously unacceptable, but why shouldn't a man be aware or know of the shape of a woman that it should be hidden under a tent?  After all woman is woman, and man is man, as God created them... and if there were not the two, and not the differences, there would be no attraction one to the other, and no procreation, but man (and woman) ought to be able to learn to be more, and to rise above, primal instincts.  Even the wild creatures are selective in their behavior.

 

Salaam.

Edited September 18, 2013 by CLynn

[Grief]

It was funny to me to read the thread, as if men had no control whatsoever of themselves and could not be expected to do so.  Thank goodness people evolved.  I do still believe it is incumbent upon us not to cause one another to stumble, so provocative dress is quite obviously unacceptable, but why shouldn't a man be aware or know of the shape of a woman that it should be hidden under a tent?  After all woman is woman, and man is man, as God created them... and if there were not the two, and not the differences, there would be no attraction one to the other, and no procreation, but man (and woman) ought to be able to learn to be more, and to rise above, primal instincts.  Even the wild creatures are selective in their behavior.

Of course, even the Quran says that men are for women and women are for men. They should not be under 'tents' (as in, the face covering as well as the hijab), but the hijab (shown below) is used to promote modesty in an Islamic society. Examples of proper hijab:

 

 

 

So basically, it's not the niqab as you might think. This is what is commanded in Islam, nothing more.

 

And you are totally right, attraction is good because God created us to be attracted to each other. The problem arises when attraction develops outside of marriage, you get divorce statistics like in the USA and you get illegitimate children that no one wants to take responsibility for because they were 'accidents' and broken homes and general chaos and a malfunctioning society as we can clearly see in the USA.

 

This is why Islam limits attraction to inside the house with only the spouse. To maintain a well-functioning society. I don't know if you've seen this one yet, but:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2TJwQXNWgk

 

Also, speaking about rape, Muslim men are taught to always respect women and treat them with kindness and compassion from a young age. The psuedo-Muslims don't actually follow Islam's teachings when they use women as objects and are no better than those in the USA that objectify women either.

 

So in Islam, you must control your instincts and you are very correct, but let me show you the product of an immodest society that has people that turn into no more than animals in their lustful quests due to the constant bombardment of sexual stimulus (half-naked women in ads, etc):

 

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/quick-click/which-country-has-the-highest-reported-incidents-rape-data

 

Why do you think the porn industry is a multi-billion dollar industry? Because people live their lives like animals succumbing to their primal desires constantly. So the system many propose of a society without hijab is clearly not working to promote modesty or chastity.

Edited September 19, 2013 by BuggyLemon

[placid]

Hi Pen,

 

Quote from Post 14:

2) you said: "Paul did not make or give any new laws, but just instruction to the Churches, --- as in this case to learn proper respect, however, it was the order of respect and worship for all believers, and it was the ‘custom’ in the Churches. "

- so, the bible is not book of law? not instructions to humanity? at the end of the day, this it not his words and it was relevant to put in the book that was a guide all Christians. so if someone opens a bible, doesn't one know what to follow and what is 'custom' ?

 

Response: --- When you ask, “Is the Bible not a Book of law?” you are asking about the laws in general which were given to Moses, and the 613 laws that the Jewish people were to follow. --- There is a verse that says this about Jesus:

“For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

--- The New Testament or New Covenant is about 1/5 of the length of the OT (it is short by comparison and easy to read), and Jesus said in Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

Matthew chapters 5, 6, and 7, are what Jesus taught about the OT laws, and how they were fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Jesus said again, “A new Commandment I give unto you, that you love one another.

 

--- Later when He was questioned by the Pharisees, He said in Matthew 22:

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,

³⁶ “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

³⁷ Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

³⁸ This is the first and great commandment.

³⁹ And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

⁴⁰ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

And Paul taught the same in Romans 13:

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

⁹ For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

¹⁰ Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

--- The New Testament fulfilled the prophecies of the OT with the coming of Jesus.

 

Quote: --- so, the bible is not book of law? not instructions to humanity? at the end of the day, this it not his words and it was relevant to put in the book that was a guide all Christians. so if someone opens a bible, doesn't one know what to follow and what is 'custom' ?

 

Response: --- Each Letter of Paul was a message of instruction to a particular Church Congregation to help solve their problems, --- so they were not new Laws, but instructions for their particular needs.

In the wicked seaport city of Corinth, the prostitutes went bare headed and flaunted their hair. --- Paul instructed the Women to be modest and wear a covering the show two things, --- that they were identified as being of the Church and not of the world, and the covering was a symbol on their heads that they had a husband who they showed respect to as well as showing their submissiveness to God.

 

 --- Concerning the word ‘custom,’ it says this in the Amplified Bible:

 13 Consider for yourselves; is it proper and decent [according to your customs] for a woman to offer prayer to God [publicly] with her head uncovered?

14 Does not the native sense of propriety (experience, common sense, reason) itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is a dishonor [humiliating and degrading] to him,

¹⁵ But if a woman has long hair, it is her ornament and glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

¹⁶ Now if anyone is disposed to be argumentative and contentious about this, we hold to and recognize no other custom [in worship] than this, nor do the churches of God generally.

--- (It was the ‘custom’ that men should not have long hair (to compete with their wives) and they preached and prayed with their head uncovered, --- but the women were to have a symbol of submissiveness on their head to show subjection to their husbands and to the Ultimate Authority, God, --- in a worship service.)

--- These were not laws as the speaker in the video said, and Paul said, “If anyone wants to argue about it, --- these are simply our Church customs.” --- Therefore, other Churches, where there was no problem with wickedness in the community or in their Church, may have just worn the hat or scarf in their Church service, and gone bare headed in the community.  

 

Placid

[PenOfTruth]

Hi Pen,

 

Quote from Post 14:

2) you said: "Paul did not make or give any new laws, but just instruction to the Churches, --- as in this case to learn proper respect, however, it was the order of respect and worship for all believers, and it was the ‘custom’ in the Churches. "

- so, the bible is not book of law? not instructions to humanity? at the end of the day, this it not his words and it was relevant to put in the book that was a guide all Christians. so if someone opens a bible, doesn't one know what to follow and what is 'custom' ?

 

Response: --- When you ask, “Is the Bible not a Book of law?” you are asking about the laws in general which were given to Moses, and the 613 laws that the Jewish people were to follow. --- There is a verse that says this about Jesus:

“For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

--- The New Testament or New Covenant is about 1/5 of the length of the OT (it is short by comparison and easy to read), and Jesus said in Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

Matthew chapters 5, 6, and 7, are what Jesus taught about the OT laws, and how they were fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Jesus said again, “A new Commandment I give unto you, that you love one another.

 

--- Later when He was questioned by the Pharisees, He said in Matthew 22:

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,

³⁶ “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

³⁷ Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

³⁸ This is the first and great commandment.

³⁹ And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

⁴⁰ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

And Paul taught the same in Romans 13:

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

⁹ For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

¹⁰ Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

--- The New Testament fulfilled the prophecies of the OT with the coming of Jesus.

 

Quote: --- so, the bible is not book of law? not instructions to humanity? at the end of the day, this it not his words and it was relevant to put in the book that was a guide all Christians. so if someone opens a bible, doesn't one know what to follow and what is 'custom' ?

 

Response: --- Each Letter of Paul was a message of instruction to a particular Church Congregation to help solve their problems, --- so they were not new Laws, but instructions for their particular needs.

In the wicked seaport city of Corinth, the prostitutes went bare headed and flaunted their hair. --- Paul instructed the Women to be modest and wear a covering the show two things, --- that they were identified as being of the Church and not of the world, and the covering was a symbol on their heads that they had a husband who they showed respect to as well as showing their submissiveness to God.

 

 --- Concerning the word ‘custom,’ it says this in the Amplified Bible:

 13 Consider for yourselves; is it proper and decent [according to your customs] for a woman to offer prayer to God [publicly] with her head uncovered?

14 Does not the native sense of propriety (experience, common sense, reason) itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is a dishonor [humiliating and degrading] to him,

¹⁵ But if a woman has long hair, it is her ornament and glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

¹⁶ Now if anyone is disposed to be argumentative and contentious about this, we hold to and recognize no other custom [in worship] than this, nor do the churches of God generally.

--- (It was the ‘custom’ that men should not have long hair (to compete with their wives) and they preached and prayed with their head uncovered, --- but the women were to have a symbol of submissiveness on their head to show subjection to their husbands and to the Ultimate Authority, God, --- in a worship service.)

--- These were not laws as the speaker in the video said, and Paul said, “If anyone wants to argue about it, --- these are simply our Church customs.” --- Therefore, other Churches, where there was no problem with wickedness in the community or in their Church, may have just worn the hat or scarf in their Church service, and gone bare headed in the community.  

 

Placid

 

being honest, your confusing me mate.

[placid]

 --- I am sorry if I write too much explanation and confuse you, --- so I will say simply that Jesus fulfilled the laws of written commandments, by teaching the new heart attitude of love. --- Paul did not change any laws or make new ones.

 

As Christians we follow the New Testament, which is the New Covenant. --- Rather than having more written laws, --- as sincere believers, we have the laws written in our hearts. --- As it says in Hebrews 8:

7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

⁸ Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

⁹ not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

¹² For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

¹³ In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

 

Quote from Post 14:

3) you said: "(Something not mentioned is that the loose living seaport city of Corinth was a city with low moral standards. --- The prostitutes went bareheaded, and no doubt flaunted their hair as sensuous women do.)"

 

Question 3: --- so a part of the bible was only to those people?

 

Response: --- The few lines written in this one chapter in 1 Corinthians 11 were instructions for the Christians Church in that particular city. --- If you were a member of that Church at that time, --- then it was for you.

However, if the ‘custom’ of wearing a head covering for women, whether a hat scarf or Hijab, --- came from those few verses, then it became a ‘tradition’ and was practiced down through the ages.

It was to be a sign of subjection to a higher authority, and worn with modest clothing it is a sign of morality and piety (reverence for God). --- And certainly it is a 'Deterant to molestation.'

 

--- This is the practice of Catholic Sisters, and Muslim women

However, if you see a girl wearing a Hijab and Designer jeans, it sends a mixed message, does it not?

 

Unfortunately it shows the influence of the western culture.

 

Placid

[Grief]

However, if you see a girl wearing a Hijab and Designer jeans, it sends a mixed message, does it not?

Unfortunately it shows the influence of the western culture.

Placid

Placid, you have just hit one of the most problematic issues within the Muslim community today.

The issue of hijab with immodest clothes is indeed a pressing issue and is also an oxymoron.

The definition of hijab is actually not the hair covering. From BBC religions:

The most visible form of hijab is the head covering that many Muslim women wear. Hijab however goes beyond the head scarf. In one popular school of Islamic thought, hijab refers to the complete covering of everything except the hands, face and feet in long, loose and non see-through garments. A woman who wears hijab is called Muhaajaba.

In the English speaking world, use of the word hijab has become limited to mean the covering on the head of Muslim woman. However, this is more accurately called a khimaar. The khimaar is a convenient solution comprising usually one, but sometimes two pieces of cloth, enabling Muslim women to cover their hair, ears and neck while outside the home.

And sadly you are right; Young Muslim women are getting sucked into the Western culture slowly but surely and are not observing proper hijab.

[PenOfTruth]

Placid, you have just hit one of the most problematic issues within the Muslim community today.

The issue of hijab with immodest clothes is indeed a pressing issue and is also an oxymoron.

The definition of hijab is actually not the hair covering. From BBC religions:

The most visible form of hijab is the head covering that many Muslim women wear. Hijab however goes beyond the head scarf. In one popular school of Islamic thought, hijab refers to the complete covering of everything except the hands, face and feet in long, loose and non see-through garments. A woman who wears hijab is called Muhaajaba.

In the English speaking world, use of the word hijab has become limited to mean the covering on the head of Muslim woman. However, this is more accurately called a khimaar. The khimaar is a convenient solution comprising usually one, but sometimes two pieces of cloth, enabling Muslim women to cover their hair, ears and neck while outside the home.

And sadly you are right; Young Muslim women are getting sucked into the Western culture slowly but surely and are not observing proper hijab.

 

the very origin of this problem are the parents imbedding in the culture. after that, the society around us, then us not studying our religion. the lack of interest in religion nowadays is scary. shaytan is blocking everyone from seeing the truth. and the women who are meant to build the religion are breaking it apart. me living in Australia, I see one in ten people wearing proper hijab. and when I find someone religious I feel like I find heaven. from how affected everyone is. the scary thing is, in the east it is just the same, if not now- it will. see the power of our desires are extremely strong, and the people are not finding  way to overtake these desires.

 

the hijab is (in my opinion) is the key to Allah swt, because once you wear the full hijab, you just cannot do what is wrong. they say the hijab restricts you, and truly it does from the wrong.

 

and you see why Maryam (as) wore it..

[Grief]

the very origin of this problem are the parents imbedding in the culture. after that, the society around us, then us not studying our religion. the lack of interest in religion nowadays is scary. shaytan is blocking everyone from seeing the truth. and the women who are meant to build the religion are breaking it apart. me living in Australia, I see one in ten people wearing proper hijab. and when I find someone religious I feel like I find heaven. from how affected everyone is. the scary thing is, in the east it is just the same, if not now- it will. see the power of our desires are extremely strong, and the people are not finding way to overtake these desires.

the hijab is (in my opinion) is the key to Allah swt, because once you wear the full hijab, you just cannot do what is wrong. they say the hijab restricts you, and truly it does from the wrong.

and you see why Maryam (as) wore it..

Mashallah so true...

Yeah I can just imagine if I try to talk to any one of my friends at school about religion how they would laugh and ridicule me. It's such a joke of a subject nowadays. Drugs, girls, and parties are the real deal... :( . Society has become a playground for shaytan. The East is like this too, as you said.

[PenOfTruth]

Mashallah so true...

Yeah I can just imagine if I try to talk to any one of my friends at school about religion how they would laugh and ridicule me. It's such a joke of a subject nowadays. Drugs, girls, and parties are the real deal... :( . Society has become a playground for shaytan. The East is like this too, as you said.

 

I very agree, me being a high school student, socializing with my friends, I try to bring religion as a topic- but they turn it around. half of my Muslim friends and un-veiled. and no matter how hard I try to get to them, you always feel the shaytan there subhanallah. but I guess, I still am trying with everyone around me, I think you should do the same, if they talk about music, tell them the affects of music, if they talk about pork, tell them the affects of pork, if they talk about the hijab tell them about the power of the hijab, if they talk about parents, tell them how islam respects parents. because at the end of the day, alamr bn maroof and alnahi an almonkar should be one the priorities in life. and I lived in the east for a couple of years, trust me didn't feel much difference.

 

enyway, waslam :)

[Grief]

I very agree, me being a high school student, socializing with my friends, I try to bring religion as a topic- but they turn it around. half of my Muslim friends and un-veiled. and no matter how hard I try to get to them, you always feel the shaytan there subhanallah. but I guess, I still am trying with everyone around me, I think you should do the same, if they talk about music, tell them the affects of music, if they talk about pork, tell them the affects of pork, if they talk about the hijab tell them about the power of the hijab, if they talk about parents, tell them how islam respects parents. because at the end of the day, alamr bn maroof and alnahi an almonkar should be one the priorities in life. and I lived in the east for a couple of years, trust me didn't feel much difference.

enyway, waslam :)

Lol my school is 60ish% Muslim and has a few thousand students. Probably a few hundred Muslim girls. I'm not even joking there is literally only 1 girl in my whole school that does not wear a skirt. She wears hijab.

The boys are no different with their hijab. Just make dua for Allah to guide them inshallah.

Ma'salaam.

Edited September 20, 2013 by BuggyLemon

[placid]

Hi Lemon,

 

Quote from Post 27:

The most visible form of hijab is the head covering that many Muslim women wear. Hijab however goes beyond the head scarf. In one popular school of Islamic thought, hijab refers to the complete covering of everything except the hands, face and feet in long, loose and non see-through garments. A woman who wears hijab is called Muhaajaba.
--- In the English speaking world, use of the word hijab has become limited to mean the covering on the head of Muslim woman. However, this is more accurately called a khimaar. The khimaar is a convenient solution comprising usually one, but sometimes two pieces of cloth, enabling Muslim women to cover their hair, ears and neck while outside the home.

 

Response: --- I looked back to see the pictures in your former posts and I see you have  removed some of them.

As you say,”The most visible form of hijab is the head covering that many Muslim women wear.” --- However --- in one popular ---

And again, “In the English speaking world, use of the word hijab has become limited to mean the covering on the head of Muslim woman.” --- However --- this is more ---

 

--- Does it not ‘muddy the waters’ to mention the ‘howevers’ of special cultures, and other names?

You said before that the only required headdress was the Hijab, which we see most women wear. --- When it comes to wearing skirts, do they wear long skirts that cover their knees? --- I have always felt that a woman should be covered from the neck to the knees, to the elbows, and that this is ‘modest attire.’

--- Would you agree with that? --- Then Muslim students could choose looser clothing that covers to below the elbows and below the knees, --- and the simple Hijab already covers the neck. --- Would that be an acceptable standard?

--- Do the girls in your school who wear skirts and the Hijab dress like that?

Or do none of the girls wear a Hijab except the one?

 

From Post 31: --- Quote: ‘The boys are no different with their hijab.’

I’m sorry, --- I didn’t know that boys wore anything called a Hijab. How do you describe it?

[Grief]

From Post 31: --- Quote: ‘The boys are no different with their hijab.’

I’m sorry, --- I didn’t know that boys wore anything called a Hijab. How do you describe it?

The hijab of the men is not a type of clothing.

 

http://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/religion/the-hijab-of-men.html

 

That article covers pretty much the whole topic.

Response: --- I looked back to see the pictures in your former posts and I see you have  removed some of them.

I haven't removed any pictures in any of my posts in the recent past. Can you describe the pictures so I may re-post them?

As you say,”The most visible form of hijab is the head covering that many Muslim women wear.” --- However --- in one popular ---

And again, “In the English speaking world, use of the word hijab has become limited to mean the covering on the head of Muslim woman.” --- However --- this is more ---

 

--- Does it not ‘muddy the waters’ to mention the ‘howevers’ of special cultures, and other names?

Hey, it's BBC :P .

 

I guess it might cause ambiguity as to what hijab really is, but suffice to say that there are many different types of 'hijab' and hijab itself does not mean clothing. It means much more than that. What the article was saying is that there is a big difference between the more holistic entity, the hijab, and its specific counterpart, the head-covering, which is part of hijab but not the hijab in its totality, the khimaar.

 

So khimaar (head-covering) is a part of hijab but it is not the hijab itself. The physical hijab consists of the khimaar (head covering) and loose/modest clothing. This is the physical hijab. I know that the hijab usually referred to as being just the head-covering (possibly even by me in the past), but it's just because it's so common nowadays to refer to it as being just the head covering. In it's real sense, hijab is more than the head covering.

 

The article sums all of this up for you :P .

You said before that the only required headdress was the Hijab, which we see most women wear. --- When it comes to wearing skirts, do they wear long skirts that cover their knees? --- I have always felt that a woman should be covered from the neck to the knees, to the elbows, and that this is ‘modest attire.’

--- Would you agree with that? --- Then Muslim students could choose looser clothing that covers to below the elbows and below the knees, --- and the simple Hijab already covers the neck. --- Would that be an acceptable standard?

--- Do the girls in your school who wear skirts and the Hijab dress like that?

Or do none of the girls wear a Hijab except the one?

This country (being a Muslim country) actually requires them to wear long skirts that cover their knees, but none of them abide by this law. It's more like miniskirts that are not even halfway from their waists to their knees. They wear school t-shirts which are not exposing enough for them, so they roll their sleeves up to almost their shoulders lol.

 

It's not a matter of what would be the acceptable standard or not; They blatantly don't care about modesty or anything of value other than their beauty for that matter. Of course it would be better for them to dress with the neck to elbow to knee attire (if not hijab) than what they are dressing in currently, but that won't even happen so no point speculating.

 

I wouldn't agree with the neck to knees to elbow definition of modest attire because, although it is better than full exposure as we see in Western culture, it is still leaving modesty incomplete (in my opinion) and is not modesty as defined by Islam (as a Muslim, I believe that I am not above God to make my own opinions on what modesty is or is not, but I do agree with the Islamic definition of hijab and modesty as it is because it makes logical sense to me). I take the stance of my religion because I believe it to be the defining factor of everything in my life.

 

The fact of the matter is, placid, that I am not judging these girls because anyone has the ability to change. It's just that the Muslim students (currently) don't even practice Islam in the slightest and are just Muslims by name, much like a lot of the Christian world today. It's sad to see these great religions being ridiculed and neglected by society.

 

None of the girls in my school perform/wear hijab in any sense of the word. Nor do any of the boys. The girl that does wear hijab wears school pants and a school shirt (this is proper hijab).

Edited September 20, 2013 by BuggyLemon

[PenOfTruth]

 --- I am sorry if I write too much explanation and confuse you, --- so I will say simply that Jesus fulfilled the laws of written commandments, by teaching the new heart attitude of love. --- Paul did not change any laws or make new ones.

 

As Christians we follow the New Testament, which is the New Covenant. --- Rather than having more written laws, --- as sincere believers, we have the laws written in our hearts. --- As it says in Hebrews 8:

7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

⁸ Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

⁹ not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

¹² For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

¹³ In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

 

Quote from Post 14:

3) you said: "(Something not mentioned is that the loose living seaport city of Corinth was a city with low moral standards. --- The prostitutes went bareheaded, and no doubt flaunted their hair as sensuous women do.)"

 

Question 3: --- so a part of the bible was only to those people?

 

Response: --- The few lines written in this one chapter in 1 Corinthians 11 were instructions for the Christians Church in that particular city. --- If you were a member of that Church at that time, --- then it was for you.

However, if the ‘custom’ of wearing a head covering for women, whether a hat scarf or Hijab, --- came from those few verses, then it became a ‘tradition’ and was practiced down through the ages.

It was to be a sign of subjection to a higher authority, and worn with modest clothing it is a sign of morality and piety (reverence for God). --- And certainly it is a 'Deterant to molestation.'

 

--- This is the practice of Catholic Sisters, and Muslim women

However, if you see a girl wearing a Hijab and Designer jeans, it sends a mixed message, does it not?

 

Unfortunately it shows the influence of the western culture.

 

Placid

 

firstly, i am happy of this dialogue because i find it important to know about the veil in Christianity. so thankyou. i would also like to say that is very impressing to see you religious and knowing of your religion- we need people like this.

 

secondly, i don't see you have answered my questions straightforward. i understood that the laws imprinted in your hearts, and that the verse is for those who lived in that particular city and time. We have such verses in the quran but with the quran- those laws were for us as well. because the quran is instructing a way of life for not just Muslims but humanity.

 

So my questions are, and i hope you answer them straightforward.

 

1)why was it put in the bible if it was only for those particular people?

 

2) how do you prove the 'head covering' is not a veil, but a hat or a scarf? as it is hard to know when his words are not precise- I am sure he knew a hat or a scarf wont make a difference on the appearance of a woman.

 

sorry for your time.

[placid]

Hi Lemon,

 

Quote from Post 33:

So khimaar (head-covering) is a part of hijab but it is not the hijab itself. The physical hijab consists of the khimaar (head covering) and loose/modest clothing. This is the physical hijab. I know that the hijab usually referred to as being just the head-covering (possibly even by me in the past), but it's just because it's so common nowadays to refer to it as being just the head covering. In it's real sense, hijab is more than the head covering.

 

Response: --- I don’t need to see the pictures again, but you said ‘the one on the right, was the only one required by Islam,’ --- Which was the simple head scarf.

(The reason we can identify with this is that my wife has worn a head scarf on and off for years, as well as other women. --- In cool weather it is a covering the same as a man wears a cap or hat. --- In other cases women wear a colored head scarf for their own desire or fashion.)

 

When you move away from the simple Hijab, then what the speaker said in the video cannot be taken from 1 Corinthians 11, --- “A woman’s hair is her glory,” --- therefore she was to wear a ‘covering’ on her head, to show submissiveness to her husband and to God. --- It says nothing about the body there, but it says in another place that women are to be ‘modestly dressed, which is proper for women professing godliness.’

 

Concerning the Hijab for men, --- the reference given is Surah 24:

30 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do.

--- (This is the right conduct for men, --- and it says also in 1 Corinthians 7:

2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. --- (Marriage is to be one man and one woman for one lifetime, then there is no need to go outside of the marriage for affection. --- The woman does not show herself in front of others.)

--- However the next verse concerning Muslim women is quite ‘revealing’:

31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex.

--- (This might have a ‘modest’ explanation, but it sounds like at a ‘family gathering’ the women can display their beauty. --- Most veils are ‘see thru,’ so I think they should have more than a veil over their bosom, or they just create a ‘mystique’ for prying eyes, do they not?)

--- “Male servants free of physical needs,” --- so how revealing does that mean?

Does that mean that ‘they could look, but have no desire to touch?

 

This is where it would speak of trying to appear most modest to the outside world, --- and where their covering is a deterrent to ‘molestation,’ as the speaker in the video said.

--- So men and women should ‘look down’ outside, but they may be tempted to act promiscously in their own homes, with their own relatives, --- is that right?  

 

Quote: The fact of the matter is, placid, that I am not judging these girls because anyone has the ability to change. It's just that the Muslim students (currently) don't even practice Islam in the slightest and are just Muslims by name, much like a lot of the Christian world today. It's sad to see these great religions being ridiculed and neglected by society.

 

Response: --- I am sorry that the western world, and the immorality of the Hollywood lifestyle, and the immodesty of the fashion world, have influences most people, and especially our young people. --- From their perspective, they are growing up ‘naturally’ for this age, --- though not necessarily like their parents did.

--- There are many ‘Voices’ to reach them with the message that ‘God’s loves them,’ but our generation is too intent on its own pleasures and pursuits to listen.

We cannot judge them, but teach them, when God gives us the opportunity, and pray for our own families.

--- However, I am glad that there is at least one girl who has the conviction to wear the prescribed clothing. --- Are there any boys who wear their Hijab?

--- As someone said, “Love them and pray for them.”

 

Placid