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The Real Meaning Of Wali

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We must find this out because if we do, it could solve some of our problems and prove that one side or another is correct.

 

A good way to go about it (in my opinion):

 

Collect every hadith you can with the word "Wali" in it from the books of Ahlus Sunnah and/or the Shia. Check the meanings in those contexts and finally begin to understand that word as it was used back in the Prophet (pbuh) 's time and use those hadith as proof here.

 

I can't read Arabic properly so my contributions would be meagre to say the least.

 

Please, feel free to discuss and talk about both sides of the issue and use other methods (if you like) of determining the meaning of the word during the Prophet (pbuh) 's time as he intended it to be meant.

Edited by BuggyLemon

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We must find this out because if we do, it could solve some of our problems and prove that one side or another is correct.

A good way to go about it (in my opinion):

Collect every hadith you can with the word "Wali" in it from the books of Ahlus Sunnah and/or the Shia. Check the meanings in those contexts and finally begin to understand that word as it was used back in the Prophet (pbuh) 's time and use those hadith as proof here.

I can't read Arabic properly so my contributions would be meagre to say the least.

Please, feel free to discuss and talk about both sides of the issue and use other methods (if you like) of determining the meaning of the word during the Prophet (pbuh) 's time as he intended it to be meant.

Surah; 10:62

Unquestionably, [for] the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

The word allies is wali in quran. So wali doesnt only mean guardian, leader etc because this wouldn't make sense.

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Surah; 10:62

Unquestionably, [for] the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

The word allies is wali in quran. So wali doesnt only mean guardian, leader etc because this wouldn't make sense.

What is the context for revelation of this verse?

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It is an established fact this Ayah (5:55) was revealed in reference to the Imam [a]. In addition to this I have no clue how anyone can be so blind to interpret Mawla to mean other than Master in the context of Ghadir. The event and statement of the Prophet is beyond Mutawatir.

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Surah; 10:62

Unquestionably, [for] the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

The word allies is wali in quran. So wali doesnt only mean guardian, leader etc because this wouldn't make sense.[/

You haven't told us why it wouldn't make sense.

quote]

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Surah; 10:62

Unquestionably, [for] the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

The word allies is wali in quran. So wali doesnt only mean guardian, leader etc because this wouldn't make sense.[/

You haven't told us why it wouldn't make sense.

quote]

Unquestionably, [for] the guardian of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

Unquestionably, [for] the leader of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

Unquestionably, [for] the protector of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

Up to you if you believe Allah has a guardian leader or protector.

Salams

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(bismillah)

 

 

We must find this out because if we do, it could solve some of our problems and prove that one side or another is correct.

 

A good way to go about it (in my opinion):

 

Collect every hadith you can with the word "Wali" in it from the books of Ahlus Sunnah and/or the Shia. Check the meanings in those contexts and finally begin to understand that word as it was used back in the Prophet (pbuh) 's time and use those hadith as proof here.

 

I can't read Arabic properly so my contributions would be meagre to say the least.

 

Please, feel free to discuss and talk about both sides of the issue and use other methods (if you like) of determining the meaning of the word during the Prophet (pbuh) 's time as he intended it to be meant.

 

This should help:

http://en.shiapen.com/fiqh/ali-un-wali-Allah/kalima-declaration.html

 

And Also:
 

http://en.shiapen.com/comprehensive/verse-wilayah/meaning-wilayah.html

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Surah; 10:62

Unquestionably, [for] the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

The word allies is wali in quran. So wali doesnt only mean guardian, leader etc because this wouldn't make sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense??? It wouldn't make sense or it will blow Sakeefa straight out of the window???

Well try and put the words guardian protector leader instead of friend and see how far you get

Or you could put the words aly and friend, then go silent, when asked to justify how one can possibly worship a friend and do sajdah to an aly!

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Why wouldn't it make sense??? It wouldn't make sense or it will blow Sakeefa straight out of the window???

Or you could put the words aly and friend, then go silent, when asked to justify how one can possibly worship a friend and do sajdah to an aly!

So why don't you stick the word guardian in 10:62.... Yea that's great we'll done!!!

What on earth has saqifa got to so with this??

I've told you I can prove from bukhari and Muslim that saqifa was wrong, but the decision of the person elected was right.

Why do you always day dream about saqifa all the time brother?? When I admit it was wrong and can prove it was wrong from bukhari and Muslim

Salams

Edited by Just the truth

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Stick the word guardian??? Yeh, why not??? Lets give it a try. " absolutely and there is no doubt a out it that, Allah is your wali and also his Messenger and those people, who have become believers etc ". Now Allah is your wali (guardian) and one worship and bows to this guardian. The Messenger (pbuh) is your wali (guardian) and one takes religion and faith from this guardian. Hazrath Ali (as) is our wali (guardian) and we take leadership and governance from this guardian. Well, it doesn't sound illogical as yours that, Allah is your friend, aly and one worships and bows, to this friend and aly. The Messenger (pbuh) is your friend and aly and one takes religion and faith, from this friend and aly. Ali (as) is your friend and aly but one hesitates to take leadership and governance from this friend and aly.

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Stick the word guardian??? Yeh, why not??? Lets give it a try. " absolutely and there is no doubt a out it that, Allah is your wali and also his Messenger and those people, who have become believers etc ". Now Allah is your wali (guardian) and one worship and bows to this guardian. The Messenger (pbuh) is your wali (guardian) and one takes religion and faith from this guardian. Hazrath Ali (as) is our wali (guardian) and we take leadership and governance from this guardian. Well, it doesn't sound illogical as yours that, Allah is your friend, aly and one worships and bows, to this friend and aly. The Messenger (pbuh) is your friend and aly and one takes religion and faith, from this friend and aly. Ali (as) is your friend and aly but one hesitates to take leadership and governance from this friend and aly.

Errrr... Excuse me bro!!! But go back four posts and you will see I have used to prove on a solid basis that the word wali means friend. I wasn't even talking about verse 5:55 I was trying to prove from the quran that the word wali doesn't always mean guardian

Here's the verse

10:62

Unquestionably, the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

Now try putting the word guardian leader it protector here??

instead of friend or ally.

Before you fire away at me from all directions read my post thoroughly brother.

Also brother I find it rather funny how you say we cannot call Allah (swt) our friend because we wouldn't take our religion from our friend.

Firstly look at what the shia translation says for sura 10:62 then talk

Secondly wasn't Ibrahim a.s khalilullah

Khalil means friend and then as a complete name khalilullah, it means friend of Allah. You want me to prove that from shia sources?? Or would you like to save yourself the embarrassment my dear brother

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Errrr... Excuse me bro!!! But go back four posts and you will see I have used to prove on a solid basis that the word wali means friend. I wasn't even talking about verse 5:55 I was trying to prove from the quran that the word wali doesn't always mean guardian

Here's the verse

10:62

Unquestionably, the allies of Allah there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve

Now try putting the word guardian leader it protector here??

instead of friend or ally.

Before you fire away at me from all directions read my post thoroughly brother.

Also brother I find it rather funny how you say we cannot call Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì our friend because we wouldn't take our religion from our friend.

Firstly look at what the shia translation says for sura 10:62 then talk

Secondly wasn't Ibrahim a.s khalilullah

Khalil means friend and then as a complete name khalilullah, it means friend of Allah. You want me to prove that from shia sources?? Or would you like to save yourself the embarrassment my dear brother

Salaam brother. Lets not get too carried away. Wali has multiple meaning and where ever in the Quran it is used, the meaning depends on the entire verse. You can't pick and choose your own meaning and stick it in any translation of a verse, that suits your need. You have verse 10:62 " unquestionably the allies of Allah etc ", here " awlia " is the plural of " wali " and would obviously mean friends of Allah or allies of Allah. Other meanings of Wali, would obviously not fit in, like " Guardians of Allah " or " leaders of Allah ". Point to be noted that in verse 10:62, wali are the people to Allah. The verse starts off from the people, then on to Allah. People can be Allah's ally and also Allah's friends. but the other way around????

 

Now lets take a look at verse 5:55, " Absolutely and there is no doubt about it that Allah is your wali and so is his Messenger and those people are also your wali who have become believers ". Point to be noted here, the verse starts off from Allah, then on to the people that " Allah is your wali ". Here the meaning of " wali " as friend or ally wouldn't fit in because one doesn't worship or bow to a friend or Ally. Here the meaning of wali would be lord or guardian/leader. Allah is your lord, the Messenger is your lord etc. It would not be sensible to say that wali doesn't necessarily mean guardian or leader, just to cick start a discussion. Ofcourse, wali has multiple meanings. Just take what is sensible and sounds appropriate.

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Salaam brother. Lets not get too carried away. Wali has multiple meaning and where ever in the Quran it is used, the meaning depends on the entire verse. You can't pick and choose your own meaning and stick it in any translation of a verse, that suits your need. You have verse 10:62 " unquestionably the allies of Allah etc ", here " awlia " is the plural of " wali " and would obviously mean friends of Allah or allies of Allah. Other meanings of Wali, would obviously not fit in, like " Guardians of Allah " or " leaders of Allah ". Point to be noted that in verse 10:62, wali are the people to Allah. The verse starts off from the people, then on to Allah. People can be Allah's ally and also Allah's friends. but the other way around????

Now lets take a look at verse 5:55, " Absolutely and there is no doubt about it that Allah is your wali and so is his Messenger and those people are also your wali who have become believers ". Point to be noted here, the verse starts off from Allah, then on to the people that " Allah is your wali ". Here the meaning of " wali " as friend or ally wouldn't fit in because one doesn't worship or bow to a friend or Ally. Here the meaning of wali would be lord or guardian/leader. Allah is your lord, the Messenger is your lord etc. It would not be sensible to say that wali doesn't necessarily mean guardian or leader, just to cick start a discussion. Ofcourse, wali has multiple meanings. Just take what is sensible and sounds appropriate.

Assalamu alaykum

Brother I know I promised am answer but I've had a long day and my eyes can barely open.

I will inshallah inshallah reply to you in the morning

Edited by Just the truth

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Abu Bakr him self Uses The Term 'Wali' To Mean Successor, So stop Using Weak Excuses that it means something ells, Why do you people put down Ali (as)? Why do you people Ignore the fact that Imam Ali (as) is the Successor of the prophet (Saws), So your Lies will no doubt turn against you.  

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said: Umar ibn al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me. I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it. At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd Al-Rahman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. So they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Alee and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest, liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Alee and Abbas). Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah, by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said:" We (Prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is charity?" They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Alee and said: I adjure you both by Allah, by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is charity?" They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (may peace be upon him) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse: "What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger." The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) distributed among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. This property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (saw) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. He said: I adjure you by Allah, by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'Alee as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (saw) passed away, Aboo Bakr said: "I am the successor (Wali!) of the Messenger of Allah (saw). Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Alee) demanded a share onbehalf of his wife from the property of her father. Aboo Bakr said: The Messenger of Allah (saw) had said:"We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Aboo Bakr passed away and I have become the successor (Wali!) of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and Aboo Bakr, you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: 'Entrust the property to us.' I said: 'If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (saw) used it. So both of you got it.' He said: 'Wasn't it like this?' They said: 'Yes.' He said: 'Then you have come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.'
 
Source: Saheeh Muslim. Vol. 1, Pg. # 840.



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Also In Sahih Bukhair he uses the Term "WALI" as Successor,
 
Narrated Malik bin Aus bin Al-Hadathan: Once I set out to visit 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab). (While I was sitting there with him his gate-keeper, Yarfa, came and said, "Uthman Abdur Rahman (bin 'Auf), Az-Zubair and Sa'd (bin Abi Waqqas) are seeking permission (to meet you)." 'Umar said, "Yes." So he admitted them and they entered, greeted, and sat down. After a short while Yarfa came again and said to 'Umar, "Shall I admit 'Alee and 'Abbas?" 'Umar said, "Yes." He admitted them and when they entered, they greeted and sat down. 'Abbas said, "O Chief of the Believers! Judge between me and this ('Alee)." The group, 'Uthman and his companions Sa'd said, 'O Chief of the Believers! Judge between them and relieve one from the other." 'Umar said. Wait! I beseech you by Allah, by Whose permission both the Heaven and the Earth stand fast! Do you know that Allah's Apostle said. 'We (Apostles) do not bequeath anything to our heirs, but whatever we leave is to be given in charity.' And by that Allah's Apostles meant himself?" The group said, "He did say so." 'Umar then turned towards 'Alee and 'Abbas and said. "I beseech you both by Allah, do you know that Allah's Apostle said that?" They said, 'Yes." 'Umar said, "Now, let me talk to you about this matter. Allah favoured His Apostle with something of this property (war booty) which He did not give to anybody else. And Allah said: 'And what Allah has bestowed on His Apostle (as Fai Booty) from them for which you made no expedition with either cavalry or camelry . . . Allah is Able to do all things.' (59.6) So this property was especially granted to Allah's Apostle. But, by Allah, he neither withheld it from you, nor did he keep it for himself and deprive you of it, but he gave it all to you and distributed it among you till only this remained out of it. And out of this property Allah's Apostle used to provide his family with their yearly needs, and whatever remained, he would spend where Allah's Property (the revenues of Zakat) used to be spent. Allah's Apostle kept on acting like this throughout his lifetime. Now I beseech you by Allah, do you know that?" They said, "Yes." Then 'Umar said to 'Alee and 'Abbas, "I beseech you by Allah, do you both know that?" They said, "Yes." 'Umar added, "When Allah had taken His Apostle unto Him, Aboo Bakr said, 'I am the successor (Wali!) of Allah's Apostle. So he took charge of that property and did with it the same what Allah's Apostle used to do, and both of you knew all about it then." Then 'Umar turned towards 'Alee and Abbas and said, "You both claim that Aboo Bakr was so-and-so! But Allah knows that he was honest, sincere, pious and right (in that matter). Then Allah caused Aboo Bakr to die, and I said, 'I am the successor (Wali!) of Allah's Apostle and Aboo Bakr.' So I kept this property in my possession for the first two years of my rule, and I used to do the same with it as Allah's Apostle and Aboo Bakr used to do. Later both of you ('Alee and 'Abbas) came to me with the same claim and the same problem. (O 'Abbas!) You came to me demanding your share from (the inheritance of) the son of your brother, and he ('Alee) came to me demanding his wives share from (the inheritance of) her father. So I said to you, 'If you wish I will hand over this property to you, on condition that you both promise me before Allah that you will manage it in the same way as Allah's Apostle and Aboo Bakr did, and as I have done since the beginning of my rule; otherwise you should not speak to me about it.' So you both said, 'Hand over this property to us on this condition.' And on this condition I handed it over to you. I beseech you by Allah, did I hand it over to them on that condition?" The group said, "Yes." 'Umar then faced 'Alee and 'Abbas and said, "I beseech you both by Allah, did I hand it over to you both on that condition?" They both said, "Yes." 'Umar added, "Do you want me now to give a decision other than that? By Him with Whose permission (order) both the Heaven and the Earth stand fast, I will never give any decision other than that till the Hour is established! But if you are unable to manage it (that property), then return it to me and I will be sufficient for it on your behalf."
 
Source: Saheeh Al-Bukhari. Pg. # 1364 - 1365.

 

 

 

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But Whats Ironic is that When Abu Bakr uses the Term Wali (Successor) it means his The Successor, but when the prophet (Saws) Uses the term "WALI" on Ghadir Khum its means Friend??????>......Mashalla....*Sarcastic* .

 

The term 'Wali' in the above narration has been translated as 'Successor.' However, when we refer back to the well known occasions in which the Messenger of Allah (saw) said Alee (a.s) is his (saw) Wali, the term is translated as a friend. Subhan Allah! This is just another prime example of the double standards of the Nawaasib who pick and choose words to fit in line with their aqeeda whenever and however it suits them.  
 

All Praise and Thanks be to Allah (swt) in that in this short article we were given an opportunity to provide authentic narrations in which the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Alee is the Wali (Master) of every believer after me." The narrations which have been provided have been aquired through Sunni books and have thus concluded the meaning of the word "Wali" is not "friendship" as ibn Taymiyyah suggested, rather it is the established leadership of Imam Alee ibn Abi Taalib (a.s). 

Even after presenting all this evidence, the Naasibee's do not accept the truth. It seems that they seek every possible deceitful way to reject anything and everything which happens to prove the rightful successorship of Imam Alee (a.s) to the Messenger of Allah (saw). In the Holy Qur'aan, Allah (swt) has revealed the intention of such dishonest and deceitful people: 

 
{إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ}
 
 Verily, those who disbelieve, It is the same to them whether you warn them or you warn them not, they will not believe.

Holy Qur'aan (2.6)

In contrast to the deceitful ones, there are those who are sincere in attaining a peaceful and tranquil heart. Fulfillment of this can only be by seeking for the one and only truth, and it may be that this one short article may help one to do just that, hence discover the right path. It would indeed be a great success to join the everlasting joy and happiness of being from amongst the followers of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and his pure Ahlulbayt (a.s).

 
{أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِهِمْ أَنَّا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ يُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَرَحْمَةً وَذِكْرَى لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ}
 
Is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book which is recited to them? Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder for a people who believe.

Holy Qur'aan  (29.51)
 


__________________


 

 

 


If the prophet is Saying he is the "Wali" of every believer, then this means for the past, present and Future, So please don't Tell me or give me useless Excuses on this issue. Its Clear who is the Real Khalifa. I posted another proof that Khalifa "WALI" means Successor. 

Can you please Give me proof that The prophet Meant "Friend" When he used the Term WALI in Ghadir Khum?

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Aslo He used the Term Khalifa (successor) the Hadeeth That Contains The Words 'Wali' And 'Successor' in the book of " AL SUNNAH"

 

Imam Abi Bakr Ibn Abi Hasem:

 

قال رسول الله (صلي الله و عليه و آله): علي مني وأنا من علي و هو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي.
 
The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Alee is from me and I am from Alee and he is the Master of every believer after me."
 
Footnote: Saheeh by the condition of Muslim
 
قال رسول الله (صلي الله و عليه و آله) لعلي: "أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسي، إلا انك لست نبياً، و أنت خليفتي في كل مؤمن من بعدي".
 
The Messenger of Allah (saw) said to Alee (a.s) : "Your position to me is like the position of Haroon (a.s) was to Musa (a.s), except that you are not a Prophet, and you are my successor among every believer after me."
 
Footnote: It is Hasan (Reliable).
 
Source: Al-Sunna of Ibn Abi Hasam. Vol. 2, Pg. # 799 - 800.



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Aslo He used the Term Khalifa (successor) the Hadeeth That Contains The Words 'Wali' And 'Successor' in the book of " AL SUNNAH"

Imam Abi Bakr Ibn Abi Hasem:

قال رسول الله (صلي الله و عليه و آله): علي مني وأنا من علي و هو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي.

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Alee is from me and I am from Alee and he is the Master of every believer after me."

Footnote: Saheeh by the condition of Muslim

قال رسول الله (صلي الله و عليه و آله) لعلي: "أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسي، إلا انك لست نبياً، و أنت خليفتي في كل مؤمن من بعدي".

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said to Alee (a.s) : "Your position to me is like the position of Haroon (a.s) was to Musa (a.s), except that you are not a Prophet, and you are my successor among every believer after me."

Footnote: It is Hasan (Reliable).

Source: Al-Sunna of Ibn Abi Hasam. Vol. 2, Pg. # 799 - 800.

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Bro stop bringing up the same hadith again and again and again trying to show your "pals" how clever you are. We've been over these a million times.

Also I find it rather funny how you are quick to point to such hadiths but when it comes to the quran you have nothing, nothing even close to the word specific. Every usul ad din is clear in quran except for imamat of ali and etc. why is that??

First you and AMEEN tried to point out ulil amr but the net is closing in on you regarding that verse and that verse was probably the closest thing you could call "precise" even though its not actually precise because it doesn't say that there will be imams after prophet (pbuh).

I find it wierd why Allah (swt) has mentioned imams for past generations (bani israel)but no mention for us?? Why??

Why did Allah (swt) specifically mention the prophet (pbuh) why did the prophet not use verses of history from quran and say look Allah ( swt) sent prophets and I'm one of them?? If we can go of history verses to prove an usul ad din??

Why didn't Allah mention that he would send imams in the future?? When he specifically mentioned the prophet (pbuh)??

Brothers you can shout it from the roof tops as loud as you like that wali in verse 5:55 means guardian but guess what... No ones interested because the word friend fits in nice and easily in surah 5:55

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

Bro stop bringing up the same hadith again and again and again trying to show your "pals" how clever you are. We've been over these a million times.

 

Again we see, that you never read my responses, I in-fact Never posted this Hadith before, It is Similar to the one I posted on page say 8/9, but not the same one. You continue to ignore. Brother, When you want to give a logical responses talk to me.

 

 

 

Also I find it rather funny how you are quick to point to such hadiths but when it comes to the quran you have nothing, nothing even close to the word specific. Every usul ad din is clear in quran except for imamat of ali and etc. why is that??

When it comes to the Quran I have nothing? you sure know hot to Insult a person. First of All the Imamate of Imam Ali (as) as you mentioned in the way you said it,  makes no sense, Second of All the CONCEPT OF IMAMATE, APPOINTED BY Allah is in the Quran, But Sadly and so ever Sadly, When we come to sure we find Nothing in Shura appointing an Imam, Give a Quran verse where Shura is mentioned to Appointed a khalifa, and A Hadith from our books where the prophet (pbuh) said "GO DO SHURA?"

 

 

 

First you and AMEEN tried to point out ulil amr but the net is closing in on you regarding that verse and that verse was probably the closest thing you could call "precise" even though its not actually precise because it doesn't say that there will be imams after prophet (s)

When are you going to start using Logic? If Allah Has made a GUIDE FOR ALL THE NATIONS, then who is our GUIDE In the WORLD OF TODAY?

WHO WAS THE GUIDE AFTER THE PROPHET (pbuh)? ABU BAKR OR ALI? ALI? ALI?, WE HAVE BEEN ON THIS VERSE FOR A LONG TIME AND YOU GAVE NO LOGICAL RESPONSE TO THE POST ON "APPOINTING A SUCCESSOR" PLEASE REFER BACK TO PAGE 6/7 AND QUOTE MY STATEMENTS THEIR, AND I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS VERSE ON THE "4:59 hULI AL AMR" PLEASE REFER BACK TO IT, NO NEED TO SPAM THE SAME QUESTION OVER AND OVER AGAIN ON DIFFERENT POSTS, TO SHOW AS IF YOU ARE KNOWING.

 

 

 

 

I find it wierd why Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has mentioned imams for past generations (bani israel)but no mention for us?? Why??

 

 

Allahs says We have made a guide and a Warner  for each nation, and The prophet (s) says to Ali, you are the guide and I am the warner. I have stated this hadith several times, and all you gave me was the excuses of degrading the position of Imam Ali (as).

 

Was has the Imams of Jesus not beem mentioned in the terms that they Will be the guides after him?

 

 

 

Why did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì specifically mention the prophet (s) why did the prophet not use verses of history from quran and say look Allah ( swt) sent prophets and I'm one of them?? If we can go of history verses to prove an usul ad din??

 

 

you make no sense, The prophet Him self Explained ( not All, but most ) why the verses came down and to Whom it was for, and through what he says which has now become narrations, we used his sayings and the sayings of Ahlulbayt (as) to understand the verse. he has Number of times refer to Imam Ali (as) as the Khalifa after him, as proved Earlier.

 

 

 

 

Why didn't Allah mention that he would send imams in the future?? When he specifically mentioned the prophet (s)??

 

Did Allah Say There will be a prophet (s) after prophet Muhammad? Why did he not mention Imam Mahdi (as)? Yet We all believe that he is going to come and we have to give B'aya to him. Why doesn't Allah mention him? And Jesus is going to prayer Behind him.

   

 

 

 

Brothers you can shout it from the roof tops as loud as you like that wali in verse 5:55 means guardian but guess what... No ones interested because the word friend fits in nice and easily in surah 5:55 

The Word Friend fits nice? are you a Mujtahid? No, are you an Alem? NO, Are you an Imam? NO,

Brother Wali For the last time even to the Arabic Dictionary has many meanings, and the first among the rest 

Is Successor. You like to use the term friend to take away the position of Imam Ali (s), It sad that People prefer their ignorance.

And.............no reply to the above answer.....Okay. very nice Tactics.

(salam)  

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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ISLAM HISTORY

I've come to realise you turn more to hadith than quran.

YOU SAID

CONCEPT OF IMAMATE, APPOINTED BY Allah is in the Quran

MY ANSWER

Yea well guess what...so is nubuwwah buh guess what.... Nubuwwah is mentioned clearly in present tense verses whereas imamat?? Well what can I say.

Shura IS NOT USUL AD DIN so why do I need to prove it from quran??

YOU SAID

A Hadith from our books where the prophet said "GO DO SHURA?"

MY ANSWER

Go and ask khomeni.... If shura is soooooo bad why are they doing it??

YOU SAID

When are you going to start using Logic? If Allah Has made a GUIDE FOR ALL THE NATIONS, then who is our GUIDE In the WORLD OF TODAY?

MY ANSWER

You tell me?? I say it's the prophet (pbuh).

YOU SAID

AND I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS VERSE ON THE "4:59 hULI AL AMR

MY ANSWER

No I asked you a question which YOU never answered. Now make your way back to that thread.

YOU SAID

Allahs says We have made a guide and a Warner for each nation, and The prophet (s) says to Ali, you are the guide and I am the warner. I have stated this hadith several times, and all you gave me was the excuses of degrading the position of Imam Ali .

MY ANSWER

Covered the verse in the other thread. Ali was a spiritual guide, since wali can be interpreted as friend. Go and research what SUNNIS call waliallah.

YOU SAID

Was has the Imams of Jesus not beem mentioned in the terms that they Will be the guides after him?

MY ANSWER

Oh yea... How can I forget this one!!

I remember you copy and pasted from a book who's preface said there's no guarantee to their authencity.

Also I have a question who was the last of them leaders guiding?? Did he come back to guide?? Wgat was the point of his extended life??

YOU SAID

you make no sense

MY ANSWER

Maybe you should read a bit more deeper.

YOU SAID

you make no sense, The prophet Him self Explained ( not All, but most ) why the verses came down and to Whom it was for, and through what he says which has now become narrations, we used his sayings and the sayings of Ahlulbayt to understand the verse. he has Number of times refer to Imam Ali as the Khalifa after him, as proved Earlier.

MY ANSWER

nubuwwah is usul ad din right?? So we fight verses where Allah (swt) spoke of nubuwwah in presence tense, but your Imamate is not specific and you cannot use verses of history to prove an usul ad din.

YOU SAID

Did Allah Say There will be a prophet (s) after prophet Muhammad?

MY ANSWER

NUBUWWAH of ISA a.s is mentioned in quran in a precise verse so we can now refer to hadith.

YOU SAID

Why did he not mention Imam Mahdi ?

MY ANSWER

Why would he?? It's not usul ad din!

YOU SAID

The Word Friend fits nice? are you a Mujtahid? No, are you an Alem? NO, Are you an Imam? NO,

MY ANSWER

Speaks the guy who never new the difference between un Nass and unasim!!

I'm not, neither are you BUT our scholars of tafsir have put the word friend there.

YOU SAID

Brother Wali For the last time even to the Arabic Dictionary has many meanings, and the first among the rest

Is Successor. You like to use the term friend to take away the position of Imam Ali (s), It sad that People prefer their ignorance.

And.............no reply to the above answer.....Okay. very nice Tactics.

MY ANSWER

Bro doesn't change the fact that wali also means friend!!

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ISLAM HISTORY

I've come to realise you turn more to hadith than quran.

YOU SAID

CONCEPT OF IMAMATE, APPOINTED BY Allah is in the Quran

MY ANSWER

Yea well guess what...so is nubuwwah buh guess what.... Nubuwwah is mentioned clearly in present tense verses whereas imamat?? Well what can I say.

Shura IS NOT USUL AD DIN so why do I need to prove it from quran??

YOU SAID

A Hadith from our books where the prophet said "GO DO SHURA?"

MY ANSWER

Go and ask khomeni.... If shura is soooooo bad why are they doing it??

YOU SAID

When are you going to start using Logic? If Allah Has made a GUIDE FOR ALL THE NATIONS, then who is our GUIDE In the WORLD OF TODAY?

MY ANSWER

You tell me?? I say it's the prophet (pbuh).

YOU SAID

AND I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS VERSE ON THE "4:59 hULI AL AMR

MY ANSWER

No I asked you a question which YOU never answered. Now make your way back to that thread.

YOU SAID

Allahs says We have made a guide and a Warner for each nation, and The prophet (s) says to Ali, you are the guide and I am the warner. I have stated this hadith several times, and all you gave me was the excuses of degrading the position of Imam Ali .

MY ANSWER

Covered the verse in the other thread. Ali was a spiritual guide, since wali can be interpreted as friend. Go and research what SUNNIS call waliallah.

YOU SAID

Was has the Imams of Jesus not beem mentioned in the terms that they Will be the guides after him?

MY ANSWER

Oh yea... How can I forget this one!!

I remember you copy and pasted from a book who's preface said there's no guarantee to their authencity.

Also I have a question who was the last of them leaders guiding?? Did he come back to guide?? Wgat was the point of his extended life??

YOU SAID

you make no sense

MY ANSWER

Maybe you should read a bit more deeper.

YOU SAID

you make no sense, The prophet Him self Explained ( not All, but most ) why the verses came down and to Whom it was for, and through what he says which has now become narrations, we used his sayings and the sayings of Ahlulbayt to understand the verse. he has Number of times refer to Imam Ali as the Khalifa after him, as proved Earlier.

MY ANSWER

nubuwwah is usul ad din right?? So we fight verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì spoke of nubuwwah in presence tense, but your Imamate is not specific and you cannot use verses of history to prove an usul ad din.

YOU SAID

Did Allah Say There will be a prophet (s) after prophet Muhammad?

MY ANSWER

NUBUWWAH of ISA a.s is mentioned in quran in a precise verse so we can now refer to hadith.

YOU SAID

Why did he not mention Imam Mahdi ?

MY ANSWER

Why would he?? It's not usul ad din!

YOU SAID

The Word Friend fits nice? are you a Mujtahid? No, are you an Alem? NO, Are you an Imam? NO,

MY ANSWER

Speaks the guy who never new the difference between un Nass and unasim!!

I'm not, neither are you BUT our scholars of tafsir have put the word friend there.

YOU SAID

Brother Wali For the last time even to the Arabic Dictionary has many meanings, and the first among the rest

Is Successor. You like to use the term friend to take away the position of Imam Ali (s), It sad that People prefer their ignorance.

And.............no reply to the above answer.....Okay. very nice Tactics.

MY ANSWER

Bro doesn't change the fact that wali also means friend!!

The Quran and Hadith are side by side. Why don't you prove to me straight from the Quran, that Fajr (dawn) prayers are two raka'ath??? And if you can't then, are you going to increase or may be decrease the raka'ath??? Sweet heart, you wont find everything straight in the Quran, so stop playing around. Imaamath is clearly mentioned in the Quran, Allah has pointed out to them And the Messenger's (pbuh) job was to introduce them, which he clearly did. Now what can you say???? You don't have to say anything, just widen your mind and open your heart, then all you have to do is stop being arrogant and ignorant. You speak about Shura??? Ask Khomeini if it is soooo bad??? Why do we need to come this far down??? Why not ask the first Khalif??? If it was sooo good then, why didn't Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) stick to it??? Why did he (first khalif) name and appoint his successor and oooh, in his life time??? Who is our guide today and you say the Prophet (pbuh)??? How is he exactly guiding us today??? His Ummah has gone further and further into division, so where and in what way is nowadays guidance??? Wali can mean friend but what does it mean in that (5:55) particular verse??? Friend??? Allah is your friend and one worships and bows to a friend??? Take the meaning that is appropriate, makes sense and fits. Stop being and behaving like a child. The point of Hazrath Eesaa (as) being in gaibath and his extended life is, to come and testify and to be a witness to Mahdi's (as) Khilaafath. You got a better explanation, then let us know. Imaamath is specific and is an absolute and must part of the principals of faith (usool-e-deen). References have been put forward to you but you keep running around in circles, chasing your own tail.

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The Quran and Hadith are side by side. Why don't you prove to me straight from the Quran, that Fajr (dawn) prayers are two raka'ath??? And if you can't then, are you going to increase or may be decrease the raka'ath??? Sweet heart, you wont find everything straight in the Quran, so stop playing around. Imaamath is clearly mentioned in the Quran, Allah has pointed out to them And the Messenger's (pbuh) job was to introduce them, which he clearly did. Now what can you say???? You don't have to say anything, just widen your mind and open your heart, then all you have to do is stop being arrogant and ignorant. You speak about Shura??? Ask Khomeini if it is soooo bad??? Why do we need to come this far down??? Why not ask the first Khalif??? If it was sooo good then, why didn't Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) stick to it??? Why did he (first khalif) name and appoint his successor and oooh, in his life time??? Who is our guide today and you say the Prophet (pbuh)??? How is he exactly guiding us today??? His Ummah has gone further and further into division, so where and in what way is nowadays guidance??? Wali can mean friend but what does it mean in that (5:55) particular verse??? Friend??? Allah is your friend and one worships and bows to a friend??? Take the meaning that is appropriate, makes sense and fits. Stop being and behaving like a child. The point of Hazrath Eesaa (as) being in gaibath and his extended life is, to come and testify and to be a witness to Mahdi's (as) Khilaafath. You got a better explanation, then let us know. Imaamath is specific and is an absolute and must part of the principals of faith (usool-e-deen). References have been put forward to you but you keep running around in circles, chasing your own tail.

Brother AMEEN Assalamu alaykum.

Have you been reading ANY of my posts or not??

I said that in order to prove an usul ad din from hadith you have to prove it from quran first. Now YOU stop playing around and answer me this one question:

Following the guidelines given in surah 3:7 can you find me ONE PRECISE VERSE??

Brother you cannot use verses of history to prove an usul ad din of the future!!!

Also you cannot use verses which has words with different meaning, this then falls into the unspecific verses. I've explained surah 3:7 to you from start to end step be step why you playing around for??

If you studied properly then you will see that the word friend fits in nicely and there's nothing wrong with it there. Unless you can tell me that I'm commuting shirk or summat.

The rest of your reply is off topic you want to talk about abu bakr and umar then open a new thread.

You keep saying that imamat is (usul ad deen) yet you can't answer one question;

HOW DOES ONE REMAIN A MUSLIM BY REFUSING/REJECTING AN USUL AD DIN??????

I wonder why your ulema don't call us kafirs??

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Salaam brother just the truth. You said" you can't use verses of history, to prove an usool-e-deen of the future ". Ok brother, why can't you??? Whos golden rule is this??? Is this your made up rule???? Are you going to back this statement up, with references as evidence and proof???? Or do you just make things up, as you go along???

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You also said " you can't use verses with words that have different meanings ", why???? Who said, why and where is the proof??? The word " friend " fits in nicely??? So do the rest. So what's the problem???

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Wali means friend and it seems to fit in nicely??? Ok, so Allah is your friend and you don't seem to have a problem, with worshiping him. The Prophet (pbuh) is also your friend and you don't seem to have a problem, with taking religion from him but when it comes to the third party, the third authourity in the sequence and in line, they are also your "wali" friends but you seem to have a problem with taking leadership and governance from them, WHY?????????

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You want to talk about Abu Bakar and Umar (ra)???? What is their to talk about them???? If they hadn't followed, their will, wish and desire, based on their own understanding and instead followed Allah and his Messenger's (pbuh) command after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh), then the entire Ummah would'nt be in the mess that it is today.

None of my reply is off topic, because it is a reply to your points and comments. And if my reply is off topic then, that is because your points and comments were off topic. You can't remain a Muslim, if you reject any of the principals of faith. The Shia Aalims do not consider you as kafir???? Well lets say that this is their generosity and courtesy. They are not ruthless and brutal as, those who accuse others of kufar, then label them as wajib ul qatal.

s

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Statement:

I've come to realise you turn more to hadith than quran.

Who are you to justify such a thing?  Second of All you cannot Interpret a verse with out a hadith or a saying of the prophet (s). Please Stop judging me and start showing some respect.

 

 

Statement:

Yea well guess what...so is nubuwwah buh guess what.... Nubuwwah is mentioned clearly in present tense verses whereas imamat?? Well what can I say. Shura IS NOT USUL AD DIN so why do I need to prove it from quran??

 

Where is Imamat? Do you read the posts or do you scan read? you till have the Audacity to Question Imamate? We have mentioned many verses on this issue and Allah Can no leave the World with out a Guide Who is the Imam, and appointing an Imam such as Haron to musa as took place and well as many others and the successor of prophet Solomon on the Quran.

In your case yes, Shura is not Usoul a deen, So why did Umar and ABu bakr act on it? did the prophet (s) tell them to? If he did provide a Hadith from our book. Please, If Imam Ali (as) was Khalifa, Why did they still go on with shura and not attend the Prophets Burial? Why did they not attend the Burial of Ali? Why did they not attend the Burial of
Fatima al zahra?

Statement:

Go and ask khomeni.... If shura is soooooo bad why are they doing it??

 

​Absolutely Pathetic, I gave you an answer on "Appointing a Successor", Did you reply to the statement I made....lets check:
NO.

 

 

Statement:

You tell me?? I say it's the prophet  (pbuh)

 

Okay, This is really really really strange, What language to you speak or read?

I proved to you in Mustadark al Saheehain an Authentic Hadith where the prophet Said: Ali you are the guide and I am the Warner.

Considering the verse that came down on this issue.

 

 

Statement:

No I asked you a question which YOU never answered. Now make your way back to that thread.

make your way back to post 118#

 

Statement:
Covered the verse in the other thread. Ali was a spiritual guide, since wali can be interpreted as friend. Go and research what SUNNIS call waliallah.


Wow, your still on with that pathetic self made theory of Spiritual guide. Please make your way back to "appointing a Successor" page 6-7,
And give proof Hadith of the statement you just made. Thats what Sunnis call Wiliayh sadly yes, but the Arabic language calls it Successor and 5-6 other Definitions. Can you please give me proof that Ghadir khum with AUTHENTIC HADith on what means or Definitions the prophet meant when he said "Wali"?, Second of All when Abu bakr says Wali as in the menas of Successor in Bukhair, it means successor? Mashalla, So ABu bakr means successor and the prophets (s) Who is of the highest Creations says WAli as friend infront of thousands of people and lifts his hand, so the prophet did all that to thell the people he is my friend???

Use your logic and stop Ignoring Historical facts and Evidences.

 

Statement:
Oh yea... How can I forget this one!! 
I remember you copy and pasted from a book who's preface said there's no guarantee to their authencity.

 

A wonderful Excuses and no Logical Refutation.

 

 

Statement
Also I have a question who was the last of them leaders guiding?? Did he come back to guide?? Wgat was the point of his extended life??

 
Which Imam are you referring to? if your talking about jesus, He will come back and PRAY BEHIND THE IMAM MAHDI (s), We both agree on this.

 

 

Statement:

Maybe you should read a bit more deeper.

Not everyone who reads are of Knowledge, there are people who are ignorant, on account of their education.

 

 

Statement:
nubuwwah is usul ad din right?? So we fight verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì spoke of nubuwwah in presence tense, but your Imamate is not specific and you cannot use verses of history to prove an usul ad din.


Replied Above. 

In addition According to Sunnah We have to  Believe in Angels, also with Shia to be a Muslim.

Give verses which say "We have to believe in angles" please.

 

  

Statement:
NUBUWWAH of ISA a.s is mentioned in quran in a precise verse so we can now refer to hadith.


Prophet Isa Will not comeback as a prophet He will not have any message to come with, but he will come back and pray behind Imam Mahdi (s) and aid him . No, For God's sake, there is not prophet after prophet Muhmmad (s).


Statement:
Why would he?? It's not usul ad din!


Do you actually have good Vocabulary? I was imposing the Question on you.
For the last time. The concept of Imamah is mentioned, and the names do not have to be mentioned,
Just like the prayer (sala) we find it is mentioned, but how to preform it, is not mentioned.


Statement:
Speaks the guy who never new the difference between un Nass and unasim!!

I'm not, neither are you BUT our scholars of tafsir have put the word friend there.

Ignorance. Not All your Scholars in their Tafsir Defined it as just "Friend", But infact 

many terms and if you would like i can post more proof on this issue.

Sorry what did you say? un Nass? uniasm? 

Type something probably.

 
Statement:
Bro doesn't change the fact that wali also means friend!! 


I did not. But your ignorance and illogical thinking has brought you

To think that the prophet meant "friend" when he said Wali on Ghadir Khum,
Can you please give proof of this? I Addition I gave you hakdith WHERE IN TiMES
HE SAID KHALIFA MANY TIMES, you choose on the other hand to prefer what people tell you.


(salam) 

 


 


 

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You want to talk about Abu Bakar and Umar (ra)???? What is their to talk about them???? If they hadn't followed, their will, wish and desire, based on their own understanding and instead followed Allah and his Messenger's (pbuh) command after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh), then the entire Ummah would'nt be in the mess that it is today.

None of my reply is off topic, because it is a reply to your points and comments. And if my reply is off topic then, that is because your points and comments were off topic. You can't remain a Muslim, if you reject any of the principals of faith. The Shia Aalims do not consider you as kafir???? Well lets say that this is their generosity and courtesy. They are not ruthless and brutal as, those who accuse others of kufar, then label them as wajib ul qatal.

s

"You cannot remain a Muslim, if you reject any of the principals of faith. The shia Aalims do not consider you as kafir????

Does this make any sense ??????????? Say that again.... But this time in English.

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"You cannot remain a Muslim, if you reject any of the principals of faith. The shia Aalims do not consider you as kafir????

Does this make any sense ??????????? Say that again.... But this time in English.

 

 

Mistaken, You believe in Imamah your self.

But you say that Abu Bakr is the Imam.

We say Imam Ali (as) is the Imam.

We both Believe in the Concept of Imam in the means of Khalifa.

We have it as a principle and you don't.

End of story.

(salam)  

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