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In the Name of God بسم الله

Christians Being Attacked

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  • Veteran Member

Pretty much the same reason muslims are being attacked there, anyone seen siding with the government there is considered an enemy so him and his places of worship are destroyed. The rebels/terrorists in all these countries want to remove their governments and replace it with their politics (either secular democracy for some, or an Islamic theocracy for others).

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Would anyone like to take a stab at an explanation for all the attacks on Christians in Egypt, Iraq, and Syria?

 

Terrorists. <------ My stab.

 

The Prophet never killed Christians or Jews for simply living in his nation. He tolerated them and even let them pray in his mosques.

 

P.S. Read my PM :P.

Edited by BuggyLemon
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Terrorists. <------ My stab.

 

The Prophet never killed Christians or Jews for simply living in his nation. He tolerated them and even let them pray in his mosques.

 

P.S. Read my PM :P.

He did have a lot of conflicts with the jews of madina later on when they were seen to break their pact with the Prophet. That's another story though.

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He did have a lot of conflicts with the jews of madina later on when they were seen to break their pact with the Prophet. That's another story though.

Yeah and that's why I said "for simply living in his nation" implying that they are not to be harassed/attacked/prosecuted unless they wrong another person. Those Jews did wrong and therefore there was conflict. For simply being a member of a religion, a person shouldn't be harassed/attacked/prosecuted though.

But why attack Christians?

Because the terrorists misinterpret Islamic doctrine. They use those verses you quoted (on the thread where your post was edited) to support their actions.

 

They take them out of context as many Islam-haters do and portray them as a call for violence within the religion.

Edited by BuggyLemon
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Because the terrorists misinterpret Islamic doctrine. They use those verses you quoted (on the thread where your post was edited) to support their actions.

 

They take them out of context as many Islam-haters do and portray them as a call for violence within the religion.

 

Actually there's never been proof to show terrorists take verses of the Quran out of context like 5 year olds, they always seem to portray their fight as one of defense (and subsequently a call for an Islamic government); the only thing is they take their fight against civilians as well since they don't see people who elect/support an enemy regime as innocent. With that logic, civilian blood is shed.

 

Btw look at this OP's attitude, I brought up the fact that muslims are killed as well in these attacks but he/she insists its only Christians lol. Typical, we all know where this is heading.

Edited by Jahangiram
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Btw look at this OP's attitude, I brought up the fact that muslims are killed as well in these attacks but he/she insists its only Christians lol. Typical, we all know where this is heading.

 

:squeez: False accusations.  I never saw your post and I never responded to it.  Hasn't anyone taught you not to make false accusations?

*frustration

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:squeez: False accusations.  I never saw your post and I never responded to it.  Hasn't anyone taught you not to make false accusations?

*frustration

Ignore him brother. No need to let other mortal humans get you down. Only God knows what's in our hearts and only you know your own intention.

Btw look at this OP's attitude, I brought up the fact that muslims are killed as well in these attacks but he/she insists its only Christians lol. Typical, we all know where this is heading.

If Muslims are being killed, we would feel their pain as well because they are our people. It's not heading anywhere. He may have just been asking to get an answer from the Muslim perspective. Islam teaches us to give people the benefit of the doubt. Imam Ali (as) himself woke up the man (for Fajr prayers) who he knew to be his own killer (Ibn Muljam), giving him the benefit of the doubt that, "Maybe he will change his ways; Maybe he will repent". Allah does not record bad deeds before they occur even if the intention is bad. If the Almighty Allah does not judge people before they actually commit a sin, how can you state, "we know where this is heading", and assume that his intention is of a malicious nature when the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth, in all His Majesty does not judge his own worthless creatures before they act out their intentions?

 

This person is a guest on our forums. Islam teaches us to treat guests with the highest of respect. He has come to learn and discuss. We should not slander him by assuming what his intention may be.

 

 

 

Actually there's never been proof to show terrorists take verses of the Quran out of context like 5 year olds, they always seem to portray their fight as one of defense (and subsequently a call for an Islamic government); the only thing is they take their fight against civilians as well since they don't see people who elect/support an enemy regime as innocent. With that logic, civilian blood is shed.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=27c_1376536296

 

Yes there has been. They are worse than animals. They are reciting Quranic verses out of context before killing children. What a disgrace to the great religion of Allah.

Edited by BuggyLemon
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=27c_1376536296

 

Yes there has been. They are worse than animals. They are reciting Quranic verses out of context before killing children. What a disgrace to the great religion of Allah.

Lol do you even know Arabic? He was talking about Shabiha (the armed forces of assad) fighting muslims and "breaking the covenant" of trust between its citizens. So he says he wants to avenge this by killing those young shia teens.

 

And this precisely demonstrated what im talking about, civilian killing is justified by alleging the victims are supporter of the enemy regime. This is the logic Anjem Choudary himself says is behind terrorist attacks, "evil" governments waging a war on Islam and people who elect these administrations being indirect accomplices of state crimes (or at the very least supporters).  

Edited by Jahangiram
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Lol do you even know Arabic? He was talking about Shabiha (the armed forces of assad) fighting muslims and "breaking the covenant" of trust between its citizens. So he says he wants to avenge this by killing those young shia teens.

 

And this precisely demonstrated what im talking about, civilian killing is justified by alleging the victims are supporter of the enemy regime. This is the logic Anjem Choudary himself says is behind terrorist attacks, "evil" governments waging a war on Islam and people who elect these administrations being indirect accomplices of state crimes (or at the very least supporters).  

No, I don't know much Arabic, but I heard "alhamdulilahirabbil3alameen" followed by "qaala ta3ala" meaning "The Lord says" followed by "qatiluhum yu3zibuhumallahum somethingsomething" Which means kill those who... etc. etc.

 

So I concluded they were reading Quranic verses out of context. I can neither understand (properly) nor write (properly) Arabic and therefore I apologize if I made any incorrect statements. That is just what I gathered from the above.

 

Thanks for correcting me.

 

(salam) .

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It is no secret for the Egyptian Copts, that the reason why is beause they have been opponets towards MB and supported the Coup. THis angered the big babies in charge of MB so they sent their braindead dogs to attack innocent people.
 

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No, I don't know much Arabic, but I heard "alhamdulilahirabbil3alameen" followed by "qaala ta3ala" meaning "The Lord says" followed by "qatiluhum yu3zibuhumallahum somethingsomething" Which means kill those who... etc. etc.

 

So I concluded they were reading Quranic verses out of context. I can neither understand (properly) nor write (properly) Arabic and therefore I apologize if I made any incorrect statements. That is just what I gathered from the above.

 

Thanks for correcting me.

 

(salam) .

He began praising God "Alhamdulillah", and then recited 9:14 of Sura Tauba talking about fighting those pagans who fought the Prophet. There's no problem with this, they understand their fight as a defensive one perfectly in line with this aya. The problem is who they consider as legitimate targets in this war. They are a presumptuous lot who assume and then take action based on those unproven assumptions like wild cowboys.

Edited by Jahangiram
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He began praising God "Alhamdulillah", and then recited 9:14 of Sura Tauba talking about fighting those pagans who fought the Prophet. There's no problem with this, they understand their fight as a defensive one perfectly in line with this aya. The problem is who they consider as legitimate targets in this war. They are a presumptuous lot who assume and then take action based on those unproven assumptions like wild cowboys.

It is planted the terorrist's mind and heart i.e.:

1. Suicide bomber/'bride' that killed many fallible human.

2. The government that initiate attacking other country.

3. The preacher accusing human without proof and inciting jihad against fallible human.

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Peopledoing this hurt to Christians because they have more than a few screws loose I always say just because we disagree on somethings we can find common ground on other and only a loony toon would go out attacking Christians as we see in Egypt

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Peopledoing this hurt to Christians because they have more than a few screws loose I always say just because we disagree on somethings we can find common ground on other and only a loony toon would go out attacking Christians as we see in Egypt

 

Greetings Maitham,

 

But it's not an isolated problem, it's widespread in the muslim world, so one has to ask what is it that fuels this mentality.  I would have the same issue if muslims were being attacked in a secular country.  The difference is, that Christians do not insist that people live according to their doctrines, so why attack Christians.  What's the beef?  Why the attacks on Christians.  It is a question worth seeking the answer to.

 

Salaam.

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Actually Christians are attacked proportionally lower in Iraq and Syria than other Muslims. As Jah perfectly explained, it's political. In Iraq, the Iraqi Christians were working with U.S forces, and in Syria, many of the Syrian Christians sided with Bashar al-Assad. But overall, in the Iraqi civil war, the conflict was between Sunni Arab insurgents and Shi`a Arab militants. In the Syrian civil war, the conflict is between the rebels and the government. These are almost purely political conflicts. In any power vacuum, some will take the law into their own hands, and others will oppress just to show who is boss.

 

No one can legitimize the killing of civilians anywhere. This is strictly forbidden in most world religions, and Islam is no exception to that. On the contrary, the Qur'an says that the Christians are the closest in love to the Muslims. Islam refers to Christians as "the People of the Scripture" and "the Protected People" (meaning, an Islamic government has the responsibility to protect Christians under its authority). This is why you find tens of millions of Christians in the Muslim world - these are ancient communities that have lived with Muslim for over a thousand years.

 

It is unfortunate that today we find that Christians will be occasionally targeted to reach political ends. In Egypt, Coptic Churches and vandalized, because the Copts support the Egyptian military. But don't let these cowardly actions represent Islam or Muslim treatment of Christians. The Christians are our neighbours, and often times, they are our friends and even our wives. Many Muslims come from Christian ancestry as well, so the vast majority do not condone such acts.

Edited by Qa'im
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Actually Christians are attacked proportionally lower in Iraq and Syria than other Muslims.

 

Greetings Qa'im,

 

Yes, that's an issue I addressed too, in the thread Lebanon, Syria, Iraq...

 

Salaam,

CLynn

In Iraq, the Iraqi Christians were working with U.S forces, and in Syria, many of the Syrian Christians sided with Bashar al-Assad.

 

I agree, it is political.  Do you really think these things are decided on religious lines?  I would bet there are Christians on both sides of the issue, as there should be muslims on both sides of the issues as well... according to how they use their own minds and thought processes, not according to what religious classification they belong to.

meaning, an Islamic government has the responsibility to protect Christians under its authority).

 

but also making sure that they feel their subjugation as well... their inferiority.

 

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.  9:29

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We consider such people outside the folds of Islam and we believe Islam was sent to protect Jews and Christians living inside the Islamic state. sister I have a parable for you there was a man who wanted to fight a war so he went to buy a sword the shop owner who sold it was deceptive and made it out of cheap metal not of iron he payed top dollar for it and thought that he was ready to confront his enemy. He went to battle and with every strike a piece of his sword chipped away until finally nothing remained And he found him self at the end of the enemy's sword only to realize they had a sword made of real metal sister this the parable for those who take up a mission against God's truth and become missionary for deception

Edited by Maitham
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This is why you find tens of millions of Christians in the Muslim world - these are ancient communities that have lived with Muslim for over a thousand years.

 

 

I agree that there are likely many muslims and Christians that have lived as good neighbors to one another, but I would also argue that there is also this underlying propensity in the scriptures that promotes prejudice and a superiority over them.

It is unfortunate that today we find that Christians will be occasionally targeted to reach political ends. In Egypt, Coptic Churches and vandalized, because the Copts support the Egyptian military. But don't let these cowardly actions represent Islam or Muslim treatment of Christians. The Christians are our neighbours, and often times, they are our friends and even our wives. Many Muslims come from Christian ancestry as well, so the vast majority do not condone such acts.

 

This is good to know.  I hope that there are muslims in Egypt that are standing up and defending their Christian neighbors.

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I agree that there are likely many muslims and Christians that have lived as good neighbors to one another, but I would also argue that there is also this underlying propensity in the scriptures that promotes prejudice and a superiority over them.

This is good to know. I hope that there are muslims in Egypt that are standing up and defending their Christian neighbors.

"In the name of Jesus and Muhammad, we unify our ranks"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_AQs0UqjRk

but also making sure that they feel their subjugation as well... their inferiority.

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. 9:29

Context, Tafseer (Interpretation), Ta'weel (Alternate/Deeper meanings), Grammatical construct, Arabic tradition in that time.

Those are just a few of the things that must be taken into consideration with understanding and applying that verse. Lynn, I don't know if you've noticed, but the Quran is not a superficial book. It is very very deep in its meanings and a single grammatical rule can change the whole connotation or meaning of a verse. Quranic sciences are not baseless. A person can write volumes on just the meaning of a single 1 line verse in the Quran. This is the gift of Allah (in our beliefs).

This is the problem with quoting verses without their proper meanings as derived through the aforementioned means. I wish I could give you the complete meaning of that verse right here and right now but the best tafseer existing today (in my opinion) is Tafseer Al Mizan. The problem is that it has not been fully translated yet and therefore I can't provide you with the meaning of that verse at the moment.

Maybe Maitham might be able to, or someone else. Lynn, when you quote a verse, find out about it :D. I know there are some (superficially) violent and abhorrent verses in the Bible, but I never quote them because I would be doing an injustice by taking them out of the context which they were intended to be surrounded by. I would ask about what the accepted meaning of the verse is first.

So Maitham or anyone else, can you possibly get us the tafseer for 9:29? I can't find a good one.

Also, Lynn, here is the website for Tafseer Al Mizan (partially translated) if you want just a glimpse at the depth of each verse and the amount of work put into extracting the meaning from each one:

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

Choose any random surah and any random verse and look at the commentary on them.

Salam Alaykum and best of luck to you.

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Context, Tafseer (Interpretation), Ta'weel (Alternate/Deeper meanings), Grammatical construct, Arabic tradition in that time.

Those are just a few of the things that must be taken into consideration with understanding and applying that verse. Lynn, I don't know if you've noticed, but the Quran is not a superficial book. It is very very deep in its meanings and a single grammatical rule can change the whole connotation or meaning of a verse. Quranic sciences are not baseless. A person can write volumes on just the meaning of a single 1 line verse in the Quran. This is the gift of Allah (in our beliefs).

Salam Alaykum and best of luck to you.

 

Greetings BuggyLemon,

 

Thank you for your input, but it is this which you share, that is exactly the problem that I have with the qur'an and with islam.  Why I can't accept it.  Why would God give a Word that His people could not understand without endless interpretations and without having to rely on others to say what the meaning is.  The word given in the qur'an can be taken too many ways.  Is this the 'gift' of Allah?  Why would He give a Word whose meaning could so easily change?  God's Word is unchanging.  If this is a gift, I do not think it is from God, not my God.  It seems more meant to cause confusion among people seeking to belong to God.  This is just the way I feel and I am not meaning offense to people, just sharing the way it is to me.  To me there is no clear meaning to come from the qur'an, for exactly the reasons that you state, and it keeps people dependent on being told what to think, and depending on what they are told people can behave very badly, rather than Godly.

 

Salaam and blessings to you also,

CLynn

 

p.s. - Thank you for the link.

"In the name of Jesus and Muhammad, we unify our ranks"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_AQs0UqjRk

 

 

I just watched the youtube.

Yes, this is how it was, and how it should be.  Sad that things can not seem to remain this way.

Edited by CLynn
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If people can't take their anger out on the Americans or the West they go for the

next best thing , Christians .

 

I hear a lot of Muslims in Iraq calling the American occupiers  "Crusaders" so it's no surprise Christians  

bare a lot of the brunt when things turn violent . Just another thing Mr Bush didn't think of before launched

a war based on lies .

 

In Egypt it's just the same , around 40 churches burnt down so far and the MB inciting more violence

towards the Copts.

 

There's no denying the masses  of Christians leaving the middle East and Egypt which is exactly what groups

like the MB want .  

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Greetings BuggyLemon,

 

Thank you for your input, but it is this which you share, that is exactly the problem that I have with the qur'an and with islam.  Why I can't accept it.  Why would God give a Word that His people could not understand without endless interpretations and without having to rely on others to say what the meaning is.  The word given in the qur'an can be taken too many ways.  Is this the 'gift' of Allah?  Why would He give a Word whose meaning could so easily change?  God's Word is unchanging.  If this is a gift, I do not think it is from God, not my God.  It seems more meant to cause confusion among people seeking to belong to God.  This is just the way I feel and I am not meaning offense to people, just sharing the way it is to me.  To me there is no clear meaning to come from the qur'an, for exactly the reasons that you state, and it keeps people dependent on being told what to think, and depending on what they are told people can behave very badly, rather than Godly.

I understand where you're coming from perfectly. From another perspective, one could say that this Quran, because it is so deep and so un-superficial, it allows the human being to think, to explore the world of possibilities with the gift of Allah. For example, if you look on the Baldwin thread where I posted the verse about the ant. That miracle when Allah said in the Quran "She" was never understood until a few years back when they found out ants can communicate via sound and their Queen can send distress signals.

 

That verse also has other meanings. There is not just 1 meaning for most verses in the Quran. They all allude to more than one thing. The exploration of these things and the understanding of even an inkling of what is being talked about in a verse is an honor given to the human being by Allah. That He has endowed us with the intelligence to understand slightly what is in His book. What justice would God be doing to us if he just put the superficial meanings right in front of us. No research required, no exploration required, just read the book and life your life. Allah has given us a great intelligence as one of His blessings and therefore we should use it to understand His words. He has given us the opportunity to find out the deeper meanings of our existence and has not simply told us. What's the point of a test if the teacher just gives you all the answers right off the bat. You aren't given the chance to prove yourself and show that you are worthy of that A (heaven in this case), you just get it. This would be a great insult to the student's intelligence. Allah gives us this opportunity as well. To prove ourselves to him. To show that we are the best we can be. The Quran doesn't change. The words in the Quran are intact since the time they were revealed. The Quran is a book (we believe) for people of every nation at every time until the day of judgement. It is a code of practice to live a successful life. The interpretations may change, yes. But this is the beauty of it. The fact that a verse's interpretation might change is based on the changing of times and situations that shows exactly how the Quran is applicable in all scenarios.

 

You may say that because it is so hard to understand from the get-go, it is open to misinterpretation. It is not, due to a number of reasons.

 

1. The Quran is only to be interpreted in a certain way after you have certain qualifications. Our scholars have those qualifications and therefore we follow them in their jurisprudence and live by the laws they set. They observe transparency so that we can research and monitor their work if we want to and we can see if what they are saying is right or wrong.

 

2. The Quran, when you read an apparently questionable verse, must be looked at through the lens of Tafseer (because it is more than likely that there is a backstory and context to why the verse was revealed) by qualified scholars and therefore we should not act upon a verse at face-value.

 

3. The real interpretations of the Quran were left for us by the Prophet (pbuh) through hadith and these are being compiled until today.

 

4. The Tafseer of the Quran by our scholars has been done through the use of hadith like this and therefore those tafseers are highly credible and if you wish to understand a verse more deeply, you can refer to those.

 

You were talking about the fact that we can't understand the Quran without endless interpretations and the fact that we have to depend on others to understand it. Well the website I linked you, http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/ , is a prime example of this. Let me explain.

 

We can understand the superficial meaning of a verse according to what is written there. The problem is that the deeper meaning of that verse will not be understood without research and exploration. Our scholars write these books and compilations on the Tafseer (interpretation) of the Quran because they are the ones who have the time and are willing to spend the effort in this area. I can also go and try to find the deeper meanings of the Quran if I spent years and years studying the sciences, but most don't have time.

 

This is where we get the 'Taqleed' system. We believe that in the absence of a divinely appointed leader, our scholars are the people we follow in terms of rulings, fatwas, etc. These scholars use their Quranic research and tafseer (like the one I linked you above) to derive Islamic laws and codes of practice. Those codes include Islamic Law rulings on things such as whether or not you take tax from a Christian living in your state or whether or not you 'bring them low' and what exactly this means (through tafseer, they extract the real meaning of the verse and then give rulings based on the meaning to allow Muslims to practice what the Quran preaches without having to decipher all the mysteries themselves). This allows us laymen to read the Quran, understand the superficial meaning, read their tafseer and understand the deeper meanings too. So the Quran is not a book that is stagnant and it's not like nobody can understand it.

 

Furthermore, if you study Islamic Quranic-Hadith sciences, you will find that the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) gave the interpretations of every single verse that exists within the Quran. These explanations are also a gift from Allah because he allows us to now study the hadith sciences and gradually begin to understand the meaning of each verse in the Quran through what the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) said about those verses.

 

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and my Family. These two shall not part until the Day of Judgement"

 

His family is the Imams (as). This alludes to the fact that the Imams (as) were the walking Qurans on this Earth. They lived the Quran in every way. This shows us that we do have people who know the real interpretations of the Quran and those interpretations have been transmitted to us via hadith.

 

So to answer your concern, no, we have not been left in the dark about what the meanings of any verse was because we were explained every meaning thoroughly. As a matter of fact, one of our great scholars is, as we speak, collecting all the hadith about every verse in the Quran that he can find (that has not been destroyed) from the Prophet (pbuh) and will write a tafseer on that basis. When that book is written, we will have the exact meanings of the verses of the Quran.

 

Here is a lecture on the topic if you are interested. It should further address some of your questions:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7kt7kwtr7E

 

I hope I answered some of your concerns. Take care.

 

(salam) .

Edited by BuggyLemon
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Hi,

This is a most enlightening topic, --- and I agree that ‘context’ is very important in quoting Scripture verses because very few of them stand alone as they are usually dependent on verses before them.

--- That is the case here, if we look at verses 28 and 29 together:

28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

 

This Surah is called Repentance, or ‘The immunity,’ --- It was revealed to Muhammad in year 9 of the Hijrah and was to be read out at the Pilgrimage to give one year’s warning to the idolaters, --- so it begins this way:

1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

1 Shakir: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

 

Muhammad had come into Mecca triumphantly in year 8 and removed all of the idols from the Kabah, the house of prayer. --- (Quote: ‘And the Muslim call to prayer was heard in Mecca.’)

Now in year 9, this surah was giving the Idolaters one year to make their choices. --- Either repent and accept Islam and the worship of one God, --- or leave the country, --- or run the risk of being killed as enemies of God.

 

By year 10, idolatry was removed from Arabia, and at Muhammad’s ‘Farewell Pilgrimage,’ --- he declared Victory, and the completion of his Mission, (To restore the worship of one God and remove idolatry from Arabia). --- This brought a temporary peace, and God had clarified the religion of Islam (surrender unto God, the same religion as was given to Abraham).

--- In Surah 9, Muhammad declared his authority and laid the groundwork for the new government which would begin in that year, --- and be finalized in year ten, when idolatry was no more, and the tax and revenue system would be set up for all people including Jews and Christians that lived in the land.

--- THEY WOULD HAVE TO PAY THEIR SHARE OF TAXES TO THE GOVERNMENT. --- Not necessarily a new thing.

 

Surah 9 was revealed for this one period of time, year 9 of the Hijrah, and cannot be applied to any other period of time, as some have tried to do.

This is the problem of quoting any verse from Surah 9 without this understanding.

--- Families were being reunited as idolaters repented and became part of the community of believers. --- Notice these verses:

11 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.

12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

 

--- Now we can understand verse 28 better, which says:

“The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.” --- (That doesn’t refer to Jews or Christians who lived peaceably among the Muslims.)

--- Verse 29 is written strangely, which makes it look like the Jews and Christians were offenders, but let’s examine it.

Pickthall: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Shakir: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Khalifa: You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

 

As soon as you see the word “Fight” you think it is against ‘the people of the Scriptures.’

But Muhammad was setting up his government and all the people would have to pay their taxes. --- And if there were hypocrites or rebellious ones among Jews and Christians (which there no doubt were), who didn’t believe in God, and the Last Day, and rebelled against the religion of truth,  and the new regulations of governing, --- then they were in the same category as idolaters,   

--- They would have to abide by the rules or suffer the consequences.

 

--- (I am sorry to intrude, but this has been my simple understanding of these verses.)

He also clarified the new order of worship as well, --- which is worth noting in verses 17-22.

 

Placid

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Thanks for the response Placid. Good examination. By the way, by 'Context' I didn't mean only the context of the verses, but the context for the revelation of the verses. As in what was occurring at the time.

 

MAN I REALLY WISH TAFSEER AL MIZAN HAD SURAH TAWBAH TRANSLATED TO ENGLISH  :donno: ...

 

Placid, this Tafseer I am mentioning is written by one of our greatest scholars, Allama Tabataba'i. And only a few of the chapters of the book have been translated due to low funds I think. http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

 

If I could get my hands on the translation of Surah 9 from there, I could clear all of this up. It is a great book.

 

Also, it's applicability in this day and age depends on your definition of "applicable". If you mean looking at the story and learning the lessons it teaches and applying them into your life, it may be considered applicable by some.

 

Anyway, I'll try to get the translation if I can and everything should be understood once I post it Insh'Allah.

Edited by BuggyLemon
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Hi Lemon,

 

I wonder why you don't simply accept the word that was revealed to Muhammad, after all the Quran is to be the final authority, is it not?

Hi placid, good question.

 

Yes it was and I never implied otherwise.

 

The fact is that when any verse was revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) , he always used to explain what it meant and what we should take away from it.

 

The second fact is that the Quran is not to be separated from the Prophet (pbuh) 's interpretation of it and his Family (as) 's interpretation of it, because in a prominent hadith:

 

The Prophet  (pbuh) said: "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and my Family. These two shall not part until the Day of Judgement"

 

And from that we understand that the Quran cannot be understood without the inseparable supplementation of the interpretation Prophet (pbuh) and his Family (as) .

 

The Tafseer I want to show you is the one that explains the verse with reference to hadith and other sources of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Family (as) 's sayings. It has the deeper meaning and the superficial meaning and shows us how we tie them together.

 

So to answer your question, yes, the Quran is the final authority as the word of God, but it cannot be properly interpreted without it's necessary counterpart, the Prophet (pbuh) and his Family (as) .

 

It's like building a car with everything and placing the engine inside but leaving out the wheels. It will never go forward. Yes, it may produce horsepower, but without the wheels, the car will never move.

 

The Quran is the engine and the wheels are the Prophet (pbuh) and his Family (as) .

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Hi Lemon,

 

I realize that we are diverting a little from the main topic, but I hope the others will continue as well, regardless of our discussion.

--- I want you to understand that I am not ‘knocking your faith,’ nor what you have learned, but I must explain my position.

--- About 9 years ago, when I became interested in Islam, I came on Shiachat and said that “I wanted to learn about Islam.” --- A Moderator at that time said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.”

Sometime before in some books that came into my possession there was a Pickthall Translation of the Quran which includes his Intro, which gives the history of Muhammad and the history of the Muslims till the death of the Prophet and the compiling of the Quran. --- Also. There is an intro to each Surah giving the approximate time of the revelation and the situation that prompted it. --- I read it with great interest and made notes on each Surah.

 

--- I have studied the Bible for years and was pleased to find the many stories of history from the OT that are written in the Quran as the basis of the Faith from Abraham, and Moses, through to Jesus and the disciples, and to Muhammad.

--- However, I see the Quran as being quite self-explanatory the way God revealed it through Gabriel to Muhammad, to be taught to the people.  

Because I study the Quran as I study the Bible, and often side by side, I don’t acknowledge any extra writings or hadiths to be inspired, --- or needed to explain it, --- I see them as the words of men, but if you believe them, that is up to you.

 

--- At one point Muhammad said to his companions:

“Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”  --- Since the Quran is the final word, why is it not the first word as well?

--- Muhammad is often quoted, making statements that are not in the Quran, and even as the following --- Quote from Post 24:

The Prophet   said: "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and my Family. These two shall not part until the Day of Judgement"

 

I had recorded it this way some time ago:

(Quote from Shiachat):
The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:
"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

 

--- The first weighty thing is the Quran that has been translated into understandable language, has it not? --- (Because I don’t know Arabic, I use ‘Quranbrowser’ that has 10 English translations, --- It is easy to read the choice of words they use, and perhaps then I take a consensus of them to understand.)

--- The second thing was his household, which consisted of himself, his daughter Fatima, her husband Ali, and their children, Hasan, and Hussain, who were 8, and 6, years old when Muhammad died.

He said, “The two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day” --- He was expressing confidence that the ‘two,’ the Quran, and through it, his immediate family would be faithful to God, --- and after death, on the Last Day, would be reunited with him in heaven.

--- Muhammad no doubt anticipated long lives for his grandchildren, and a continuation of what he and Ali had established.

 

Your quote says, “These two shall not part until the Day of Judgement"

That would sound like the ‘family’ of Muhammad’s household would continue, does it not? --- That may have been his anticipation.

However, in studying the history, I was very saddened to find out what it says happened to the immediate family.

--- (I got this info from the internet in studying ‘The Twelvers,’ and related narratives. --- Sorry)    

--- Fatima rather mysteriously died the same year as Muhammad, did she not?

Ali was the Imam in Madinah, and though chosen by Muhammad as his ‘successor,’ he was not allowed to be recognized in that position as others took over the political leadership. Ali remained as the Imam in Madinah, I believe.

There are reports that he was always available to help, but they didn’t include him in leadership.

 

--- After the Caliphates of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman --- they called on Ali and he reluctantly accepted to be both Caliph and Imam, but he had little influence and his premature death came about when someone struck him with a poison sword in the Mosque, and in a few days he died.

Hasan, his son followed him and after a short time was also poisoned.

Hussain became the Imam to continue, and the enemies to the legacy of Muhammad and Ali were strong against him. --- In his loyalty to companions, he took his family to Karbala, and the story is told in the first topic on this forum,

Entitled, “Tragedy Of Karbala For Jewish/christian Friends”

 

To our knowledge, there was only one child survivor, but nothing was recorded of him, --- So it seems that the following appointed Imams, though perhaps honorable, --- had no family connection to Muhammad.

If you like you can check this out and let me know what you find

 

--- I want to say again, you can believe what you have learned if you want to, but I enjoy studying the Quran only, so am not interested in extra commentary --- unless it is from you, yourself, on what the Quran teaches you. --- I guess I am suggesting that you read more in the Quran yourself, and ask questions on it directly from there.

 

Placid

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(salam)  placid.

You are a very interesting person... 9 years... Wow.

You know a lot about these things :). Of course I know you're not "knocking" my religion. This is an open discussion. When points are raised and questions asked, I try to answer them in the best way I can.

Give me a minute and I'll address all your points as thoroughly as I possibly can because I do disagree with some of them and being a Muslim for 17 years have (hopefully) learned a thing or two along the way. It's impressive you know so much about both Islam and Christianity. I know very little about the latter.

Salam Alaykum placid,

 

EDIT:

 

Okay so before I begin, the following points consist of your stance on these issues, correct?:

 

1. "I see the Quran as being quite self-explanatory the way God revealed it through Gabriel to Muhammad, to be taught to the people."

 

2. “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.” - Muhammad (pbuh)

 

3. Since the Quran is the final word, why is it not the first word as well?

 

4. Muhammad is often quoted, making statements that are not in the Quran, and even as the following --- Quote from Post 24:

The Prophet   said: "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and my Family. These two shall not part until the Day of Judgement" 

 

5. The first weighty thing is the Quran that has been translated into understandable language, has it not? [implying the question "why can't we just read it and understand it then?"]

 

6. That would sound like the ‘family’ of Muhammad’s household would continue, does it not? --- That may have been his anticipation. [implying that it did not]

 

7. To our knowledge, there was only one child survivor, but nothing was recorded of him, --- So it seems that the following appointed Imams, though perhaps honorable, --- had no family connection to Muhammad.

 

8. I enjoy studying the Quran only, so am not interested in extra commentary.

 

 

If you can quickly verify that those points are correctly summarizing your qualms with my stance, then I can proceed to opening up a new thread to address these issues so that we may both benefit.

Edited by BuggyLemon
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CLynn: Please reply to this thread.  

 

Everybody else, if he/she refuses to take responsibility for what her people have done in the past, then refuse to post on this thread at all from now on and refuse to take responsibility for what our people are (kinda but not really) doing.

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