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Modest Muslim

Khamenei Or Sistani?

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I will get some heat for this but whatever. Ayatuallah Sistani is just a Marja who you refer to for Fiqh issues. Ayatuallah Khamanei is Marja, Wilayat e Faqih, and Wali of Muslim Ummah. This might be hard to digest for many but Guardianship comes under the category of Usul. Imamat is subcategory of Prophethood, and similarly Guardianship of Ummah comes under subcategory of Imamat. We have plenty of books written on Wilayat e Faqih. 

One can choose which ever Marja but the reins of Muslim ummah at the end of day is with Ayatuallah Khamanei.

So, in my eyes its not even a question who is superior in 'ilm, wisdom, leadership etc.

 

lol don't kill me!

According to Fiqh issues, Sayed Ali Khamenei has a lot of Mujtahideen that say he is the most knowledgeable.

 

There are hundreds of Maraji' that say they are most knowledgeable its not about Sayed Sistani and Sayed Khamenei only.

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786

 

Here is the way I look at it.....The Hawza of Najaf was under severe pressure and basically closed for a number of years until after the overthrow of Saddam.  The Hawza is just beginning to re-establish itself.  However, the Hawza of Qom was strong under the Shah and has really blossomed since the Islamic Revolution.  They are doing advanced research on many subjects and issues that traditional Hawza's have not covered in the past.  So do you follow the Professors/researchers (Mujtahids) who are doing advanced study and research or do you follow those who are limited to select subjects?  To help answer the question, is Islam a religion or is it a Deen?  Is it limited to just Fiqh or does it need to cover every single issue that arises in society.  Do you follow those who are basing Fatwa's on theory or those who must deal with reality in running and leading an entire nation?

 

One example:  One of the Marja's has given a fatwa that an animal must be slaughtered using a steel blade.  That the use of stainless steel is not allowed.  In this case, everyone living in the West who follows that Marja' should either become a vegetarian or go slaughter their own animals using a steel knife (probably made to order by special request because they are not commonly used anymore).  Some of the more advanced and practical Fatwa's for every day life have come from the Marja's in Qom.  

 

I will not compare the 2 specifically nor any others because they are all great men who are fulfilling a role for al-Hujjah (as), but who are dealing with different circumstances and therefore one should compare their own with what each marja is dealing with and make a personal decision.  

 

The comparison and reasoning provided by the OP for changing his taqlid is incorrect and the language he has used is offensive and derogatory to some of our great scholars.  I pray Allah (s.w.t.) forgives you and I will assume that it was an oversight and mistake on your part.

 

Was salaam 

Edited by :wayfarer786

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Bismillah

Salam

Only followers of the Ahlulbayt (as) would argue over who's more knowledgable...another thing used to divide us people...

Seriously, if you feel one is more knowledgable than the other good for you. But it really doesn't need to turn sour. Its pretty shameful.

People argue about marja's....and all they (the marja's) are doing is strengthening their nearness to Allah swt...shame their 'followers' can't do the same because they are too busy saying 'my marja is better than yours na na ni na na!'

What are you guys 16?!

Come on, get past this silliness, immaturity and learn from our respective marja's. Furu is important but you wouldn't be a muslim if you didn't follow the usool properly. Learn from our beloved Masumeen (as), they really would shun this silly behaviour.

If you are not a mujtahid, choose one who you deem most knowledgable and get on with your life. It's really not as difficult as people make it out to be. And before another thread is opened about who is more knowledgable and how do you find out, my simple advice would be, follow your family, if they haven't selected someone/or there is a problem there, then go with your local mosque...until you figure out with a bit more research who you feel is most knowledgable. And to be brutally honest you will usually end up selecting the one that you find easier to ask and get answers from. The one you feel is most accessible to you. It's really not that difficult. If you're not satisfied then commit yourself to studying to become a mujtahid.

There's enough fitna mongering going on in the Shia world, we really don't need to be creating and adding more fuel to the fire! And letting more people mock us.

May Allah swt lengthen the lives of Ayatullah Sistani and Ayatullah Khamenei, and increase the love between their respective muqallids who sometimes act like milwall and west ham supporters...after each others blood. Madness i tell you!

Exasperated.

Salams and dua's

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Like I said both are more knowledgable more than you and I. So your Judgment is still not absolute. But At any case its your choice :)

We All thank Allah for Sistani & Khamenei.

 

 

(salam)

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You all are narrow-minded. You are acting the frog who lives in his well and doesn't know a thing about the world outside.

 

I love and respect both Ayatollahs. I love and respect all of our Ayatollahs. Our Ayatollahs are the real scholars. 

 

But Ayatollah Khamenei is less knowledgeable than Ayatollah Sistani and that's a fact. It can be a bitter truth for you but not for me because I don't consider Ayatollahs as infallible.

 

Look, my concern is simple. We can't be in taqlid of two people at one time. What if there are two people whom we can follow? Obviously, we'll compare both of them and will judge who is more knowledgeable. Your anger is based upon foolishness. You believe I'm insulting Ayatollah Khamenei by calling him less knowledgeable however I'm not. I am still attached with his verdict declaring insult of Companions to be haram.

 

I can prove that Ayatollah Khamenei is wrong when he declared chess to be halal

 

Ayatollahs can be wrong and if you think they can't be wrong then you're an innovator.

 

Dear brothers, I didn't mean to degrade someone. I was to chose between two Ayatollahs whom majority of Shia Muslims follows. I found out that Ayatollah Sistani focuses on modern religious problems more than Ayatollah Khamenei and his view on chess is better than that of him. That's why I preferred one over another. What's the big deal? Why're you acting like ghullat? If you think that both Ayatollah Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenei are equal in knowledge then whom will you follow because you can't follow two of them?

 

Taqid and Tohfatul Awam

 

What's written in Tohfatul Awam regarding taqlid?

 

'Yes, if verdict of a mujtahid is against the verdict of another mujtahid then he shouldn't be in taqlid of the one who is not more knowledgeable.'

(page #38)

 

If it comes into knowledge after being in taqlid of a mujtahid that the second mujtahid is more knowledgeable then conversion is obligatory

(page #39)

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27083647/tohfa-tul-awam-jadeed

 

So if comparison of two Ayatollahs is possible according to Ayatollahs themselves then why someone has a problem if I compare Ayatollah Sistani with Ayatollah Khamenei?

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I will get some heat for this but whatever. Ayatuallah Sistani is just a Marja who you refer to for Fiqh issues. Ayatuallah Khamanei is Marja, Wilayat e Faqih, and Wali of Muslim Ummah. This might be hard to digest for many but Guardianship comes under the category of Usul. Imamat is subcategory of Prophethood, and similarly Guardianship of Ummah comes under subcategory of Imamat. We have plenty of books written on Wilayat e Faqih. 

One can choose which ever Marja but the reins of Muslim ummah at the end of day is with Ayatuallah Khamanei.

So, in my eyes its not even a question who is superior in 'ilm, wisdom, leadership etc.

 

lol don't kill me!

you guys are unbelievable :wacko:

why haven't anyone replied to my post #4( which shows very clearly that khamenei is not a marja)???he might be the wali of those who accept his welayat,he might be the leader ......but how on earth did he become a marja without respecting the marja rulings?where is his published risala?where is the grand ayatullah that "publically" approved him as a marja??nothing...

Edited by Fatima NMA

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

 

 

 

 

salam

Sayed Sistani is my marja' too.though some of his fatwas don't make sense to me(like the chess fatwa)..

u forgot to mention that khamenei doesn't even have a risala of his own.

 

 

to become a mujtahid,he'd have to publish a risala (dissertation),which he hasn't,and receive a public endorsement by at least one grand ayatullah,which he also hasn't.though he has a website,and books written by him,and Q and A books...

besides,most of the fatwas that he has are those of sayed khomeini.

 

ّFirst off answer to the comments Fatima,

Who said that being a mujtahid requires a risala 'amaliyyah?

 

Ayatullah al-'Udhma Fadhil Lankarani(RA) had said "(When I med him for the first time) he was a teacher in Mashhad. I asked him what courses he offered and he said Makasib. Makasib is of the most important and most difficult knowledge books we have. In my opinion he is a jurist (faqih) and a mujtahid." (Newspaper of Risalat, date 22/3/68 in persian calendar which is year 1989)

 

This is only one grand ayatullah and we have many, like Ayatullah al-'Udhma Nasir Makarim Shirazi, Ayatullah Jawadi 'Amuli, and then we have great personalities like martyr Ayatullah Beheshti being led in jamaa'ah prayer by him.

 

Imam al-Khamenei has been a mujtahid for the most time of his entire life and he is more knowledgable than most grand scholars today. His risalah is stated to be that of Imam al-Khomayni just that he has published a book with the differences between him and Imam al-Khomayni. The requirement for someone to be a marja' is fulfilling the "Jami' al-Sharayi'" points which are 10:

Being

a man - check

alive - check

a twelver shi'ah - check

born halal - check

baligh (have reached puberty age - check

aqil (sane) - check

'adil  (meaning not comitting greater sins and not insisting on minor sins so that nobody gets any ideas to present their own made accusations) - check

not attached to this world (ihtiyat wajib) - double check

a'lam (more capable of others in grabbing knowledge of islamic laws) - check

mujtahid - by the saying of great scholars such as ayatullah al-'udhma lankarani... check

 

...and he's a marja', a very valid one so please stop your excrutiatingly warrying doubtings and accusations.

Imam al-Khamenei(HA) is a marja', I just don't understand why followers of great personalitiies such as Ayatullah al-'Udhma Sistani tend to be so hostile and always try to degrade the great position of Imam al-Khamenei(HA)?
What is it that you're so afraid of always?

If you guys are iraqis or other arabs and feel threatened by the iranian leader know that ayatullah sistani also is iranian and both of these scholars have their roots from the arabs... so just stop being so anti-iran you poor creaturs.

 

 

(salam)

 

I was first in taqlid of Ayatollah Khamenei but later I replaced him with Ayatollah Sistani. I think I am in his taqlid now.

 

Reasons:

1) Ayatollah Sistani is more knowledgeable than Ayatollah Khamenei. I came to this conclusion after visiting their websites. Ayatollah Sistani has solved more modern problems as compared to those solved by Ayatollah Khamenei. There are many examples:

     A. Adoption

     B. Gelatin

     C. Purity of People of the Book

     D. Brain death

     E. Contraception

 

2) Ayatollah Khamenei is unaware of some religious affairs like he believes its halal to play chess. I myself asked him whether I can play chess or not and I was replied:

 

 

However, Ayatollah Sistani deems it haram to play chess.

 

These points made me convert from Khamenei-ism to Sistani-ism. What do you all say?

 

 

Brother, you didn't convert from Khamenei-ism to Sistani-ism as that would mean changing ones belief system to another and such a claim would be an accusation as meaning some of them believe something unislamic (in aqídah).

Ayatullah Sistani does have a much broader section of fiqhi information on his sites and everywhere compared to Imam al-Khamenei but as a sibling pointed that out earlier in this topic that doesn't necessarily mean that he is more knowledgable than Imam Khamenei. Imam Khamenei being the leader in Iran and wali amr al-muslimín is probably very busy and more focused on the social, political and cultural influences needed to have on people rather than the jurisprudential. If you wanted to have Imam Khamenei as a marja' and follow others such as sayyid sistani whenever you'd have a question where Imam al-Khamenei hadn't answered it would be fine. And the fact that you've changed from Imam Khamenei to Sayyid Sistani is totally fine brother. There's no problem in it whatsoever. What's the big deal anyway?

 

Why did you even create this post, to know what our opinions are about you changing your source of information from Imam Khamenei to that of Sayyid Sistani?

Why, are you doubtful of your choice?

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You all are narrow-minded. You are acting the frog who lives in his well and doesn't know a thing about the world outside.

 

I love and respect both Ayatollahs. I love and respect all of our Ayatollahs. Our Ayatollahs are the real scholars. 

 

But Ayatollah Khamenei is less knowledgeable than Ayatollah Sistani and that's a fact. It can be a bitter truth for you but not for me because I don't consider Ayatollahs as infallible.

 

Look, my concern is simple. We can't be in taqlid of two people at one time. What if there are two people whom we can follow? Obviously, we'll compare both of them and will judge who is more knowledgeable. Your anger is based upon foolishness. You believe I'm insulting Ayatollah Khamenei by calling him less knowledgeable however I'm not. I am still attached with his verdict declaring insult of Companions to be haram.

 

I can prove that Ayatollah Khamenei is wrong when he declared chess to be halal

 

Ayatollahs can be wrong and if you think they can't be wrong then you're an innovator.

 

Dear brothers, I didn't mean to degrade someone. I was to chose between two Ayatollahs whom majority of Shia Muslims follows. I found out that Ayatollah Sistani focuses on modern religious problems more than Ayatollah Khamenei and his view on chess is better than that of him. That's why I preferred one over another. What's the big deal? Why're you acting like ghullat? If you think that both Ayatollah Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenei are equal in knowledge then whom will you follow because you can't follow two of them?

 

Taqid and Tohfatul Awam

 

What's written in Tohfatul Awam regarding taqlid?

 

'Yes, if verdict of a mujtahid is against the verdict of another mujtahid then he shouldn't be in taqlid of the one who is not more knowledgeable.'

(page #38)

 

If it comes into knowledge after being in taqlid of a mujtahid that the second mujtahid is more knowledgeable then conversion is obligatory

(page #39)

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27083647/tohfa-tul-awam-jadeed

 

So if comparison of two Ayatollahs is possible according to Ayatollahs themselves then why someone has a problem if I compare Ayatollah Sistani with Ayatollah Khamenei?

 

 

Who said Sistani is more knowledgeable then Khamenei? Who said Khamenei is more Knowledgeable?

your Assumption is not proof of anything brother.

And what book is that you are pointing out?

Wa al salam  

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Why did you even create this post, to know what our opinions are about you changing your source of information from Imam Khamenei to that of Sayyid Sistani?

Why, are you doubtful of your choice?

 

 

I just wanted to share my experience and observations with you all and to gather some more information.

 

Tohfatul Awam is a book for Indians and Pakistanis written in accordance to the verdicts of great scholars like Khomeini, Khoei, Mohsin al Hakim etc.

 

To brother p@i@m!

 

Brother, I didn't accuse Ayatollah Khamenei of anything but if he made it halal what God made haram, shouldn't we condemn him? Why're we making our scholars our prophets who are infallible.

 

I can see myself that chess is haram in Islam. One man made it haram and one man made it halal. That made me confused. I studied Tohaful Awam and studied for myself. That book told me to act according to the verdict of the most knowledgeale of all scholars. Why all this fuss about?

 

And no doubt Ayatollah Khamenei is a marja and a well-learned man. He can err because he's human but I love him and I still respect him because he's a great man. Long live the Supreme Leader!

Edited by Modest Muslim

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btw, to brother Modest muslim once more.

 

Regarding the chess issue get over with it. You are claiming that Imam Khamenei has made the haram of Allah halal. That would be a great accusation and a horrible degrading from an honest scholar to an illwilling hypocrite. Understand that the scholars have their own styles of ijtihad. So you know of maybe Three or four hadith which mention chess being haram? Good for you. Don't play chess. But to actually Believe that out of our millions of ahadith you have grasped the subject of chess being halal or haram you are gravely mistaken.

Edited by p@i@m

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ّFirst off answer to the comments Fatima,

Who said that being a mujtahid requires a risala 'amaliyyah?

 

Ayatullah al-'Udhma Fadhil Lankarani(RA) had said "(When I med him for the first time) he was a teacher in Mashhad. I asked him what courses he offered and he said Makasib. Makasib is of the most important and most difficult knowledge books we have. In my opinion he is a jurist (faqih) and a mujtahid." (Newspaper of Risalat, date 22/3/68 in persian calendar which is year 1989)

 

This is only one grand ayatullah and we have many, like Ayatullah al-'Udhma Nasir Makarim Shirazi, Ayatullah Jawadi 'Amuli, and then we have great personalities like martyr Ayatullah Beheshti being led in jamaa'ah prayer by him.

 

Imam al-Khamenei has been a mujtahid for the most time of his entire life and he is more knowledgable than most grand scholars today. His risalah is stated to be that of Imam al-Khomayni just that he has published a book with the differences between him and Imam al-Khomayni. The requirement for someone to be a marja' is fulfilling the "Jami' al-Sharayi'" points which are 10:

Being

a man - check

alive - check

a twelver shi'ah - check

born halal - check

baligh (have reached puberty age - check

aqil (sane) - check

'adil  (meaning not comitting greater sins and not insisting on minor sins so that nobody gets any ideas to present their own made accusations) - check

not attached to this world (ihtiyat wajib) - double check

a'lam (more capable of others in grabbing knowledge of islamic laws) - check

mujtahid - by the saying of great scholars such as ayatullah al-'udhma lankarani... check

 

...and he's a marja', a very valid one so please stop your excrutiatingly warrying doubtings and accusations.

Imam al-Khamenei(HA) is a marja', I just don't understand why followers of great personalitiies such as Ayatullah al-'Udhma Sistani tend to be so hostile and always try to degrade the great position of Imam al-Khamenei(HA)?

What is it that you're so afraid of always?

If you guys are iraqis or other arabs and feel threatened by the iranian leader know that ayatullah sistani also is iranian and both of these scholars have their roots from the arabs... so just stop being so anti-iran you poor creaturs.

LOL

i'm iranian myself,and i have nothing against his person(sayed khamenei),it's just that the moment this person became the leader  and a 'wali amr almuslimeen',he became a marja! but he is not a mujtahid,or at least no one had approved him (publically)as a marja.and yes.to be a marja you have to have a public risala.

besides,if u want to follow sayed khamenei as ur marja you HAVE to accept his 'wilayat faqih',it's obligatory.the thing that makes no sense to me!(the same way it makes no sense to sayed sistani) :)

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If you follow Imam Khamenei(HA) as your marja you probably WANT TO accept his wilayat al-faqih, where did sayyid Sistani mention that this does not make sense to him?

And why are you frustrating yourself so much about it?

You haven't shown me where it is stated that a marja' needs to have a public risala or where it says that a marja' needs to do acknowledgement in public?

Where are these conditions stated?

If you are a green movement supporter then please don't drag sayyid Sistani down in the well with yourself. His office clearly took a stance against the green movement as a USraeli plot if I remember correctly.

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If you follow Imam Khamenei(HA) as your marja you probably WANT TO accept his wilayat al-faqih, where did sayyid Sistani mention that this does not make sense to him?

And why are you frustrating yourself so much about it?

You haven't shown me where it is stated that a marja' needs to have a public risala or where it says that a marja' needs to do acknowledgement in public?

Where are these conditions stated?

If you are a green movement supporter then please don't drag sayyid Sistani down in the well with yourself. His office clearly took a stance against the green movement as a USraeli plot if I remember correctly.

why would i? personally few years ago i wanted to change my taqleed to khamenei as he seems to be less conservative than sistani,(and i didn't know then he isn't approved as a marja,with no risala )but i then read something in his book,he says if u follow me as a marja u have to accept welayat faqih. and i'm against wf so i kept my taqlid of sistani.

as for sistani's views regarding wf,i read once he doesn't accept it.(u can ask him urself)

besides,why are u making it political?i am with no one in this country,the whole regime must be changed.btw, the Ayatullah s that u mentioned they approved khamenei as a mujtahid are of the same regime that they are part of.so they can say nothing else but good about it!

u have to search for objective people that approve him as a marja..

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"Fatima"

You are the one claiming something of a nonsense and then I have to prove you wrong?

The jokes on yourself :)

If you want to claim Imam Khamenei(HA) not being marja' then show me the proof.

If you want to claim that one has to have a risalah to be accepted as mujtahid, or even marja', then show me the proof.

If you want to claim that one has to have a "public announcement" from a grand ayatullah to be acknowledged as marja' then show me the proof.

If you want to claim that those who announce ones marja'iyyah have to be from another governmental system for it to be valid then show me the proof.

If you want to claim that Ayatullah Sistani(HA) is against Imam Khameneis marja'iyyah or is against WF then show me the proof.

If you claim that there is a difference between Imam Khamenei(HA) and for example Ayatullah Sistani meaning one validly is marja' while the other isn't show me the proof.

I bet you don't even sympathise with Ayatullah Sistani(HA) for that matter, you don't even mention his name with reverence.

Edited by inshaAllah
Inappropriate language.

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786

 

Sister Fatima - You follow Ayatullah Sistani and I recommend that you should continue to follow him and he is a great scholar, but your premise for steering away from Ayatullah Khamenei has some flaws.  

 

1) Ayatullah Sistani also believes in the concept of WF.  He only adds that the WF must be approved by popular means.  He has always supported the IRI and its system.  If you want to follow a Mujtahid who does not support the system of WF, then you must follow Ayatullah Khoi.  I believe all of the current jurist believe in the system of WF, but have slightly different interpretations on its application.

 

2) Ayatullah Khamenei has been approved as a Mujtahid and Marja by the leading Faqhi's in Qom, the council of Fuquha (Kubregan) and the 2 major councils of Mujtahids/Marja's in Qom.  He will not receive any specific approval from Najaf because he was not a student nor a teacher there.  Also, all of the Mujtahids in Najaf are his contemporaries and are not qualified to give him any approval.  Additionally, if you look on the internet there are tape recordings of teaching Darse-Kharij to students at the seminary in Mashad.  Only senior Mujtahids give this level of lecture.

 

Again, you should follow whom your most comfortable.

 

Brother Modest Muslim - It is alright to discuss this subject but not in the language you have used.  Additionally, has another contemporary of his (equal in knowledge) declare that this fatwa goes against Islamic Law?  Are all of the Marja's who have changed the ruling committing a grave sin?  What are your qualifications?  Have you read every Hadith associated with this subject?  Do you have the skills to determine which Hadith is Sahih, which one's are incorrect?  Do you have the knowledge to determine time/place/need for each Hadith?  Is it time specific, is it for all time, was the saying of the Imam in response to a specific situation?  Just because past Mujtahids gave a certain fatwa is not proof that a change to that fatwa is incorrect.  Every Marja had declared music Haram.  Now every Marja allows certain music.  Are all of the modern Marja incorrect?  I highly recommend that you refrain from broad sweeping statements that may get you into trouble in your grave or on the day of judgement.  This is not about them being infallible, this is about make a statement (accusation - based upon your language) against a fellow Momin.  

 

Was salaam 

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paiam

would  u watch ur mouth please and have some respect?!

 

i don't have to prove anything to u,coz i'm not here to change anyone's mind or to prove anything to anyone.

i just stated what i believe in,my personal opinion and source of info that i trust,and u started attacking me.

 

thanks anyway for the respectful words  :)

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i am with no one in this country,the whole regime must be changed.btw, the Ayatullah s that u mentioned they approved khamenei as a mujtahid are of the same regime that they are part of.so they can say nothing else but good about it!

u have to search for objective people that approve him as a marja..

Offcourse, you had to be one of the green movement supporters. Your responses makes sense from other threads some of which were un-islamic.

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Hey, hey, hey, I didn't post this thread against somebody. Both Ayatollah Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenei are men of wisdom and both are blessings of God upon us. May God protect both of them, all other Ayatollahs and us laymen.

 

Brother Wayfarer786

 

Yes, your point is valid. Indeed, we should debate with our research completed. Chess is haram and I am ready to have a debate on this issue.

 

It's a part of personal experience that everything that causes three defects has been declared haram in Islam. Those three are:

1) Waste of time

2) Mental weakness

3) Physical weakness

 

Chess, drinking and gambling have been declared haram in Islam and they cause those three defects.

 

I personally know those who used to play chess and were victims of mental weakness. They had become addicted or say allergic to chess. They used to live in chess, thinking about chess everyday and comparing daily jobs with chess tactics. They also had become physically weak by sitting all day long and playing chess, sunken in the game without paying any attention to other routine works. Chess is a waste of time as well. Chess is a complicated game and demands full attention of the player to master it and the player, in order to master it, dedicates himself for the game. Indeed, he masters it but becomes abnormal for other daily works. Just like drinking and gambling, both Sunni and Shia Islam declared it haram to play chess.

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Hey, hey, hey, I didn't post this thread against somebody. Both Ayatollah Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenei are men of wisdom and both are blessings of God upon us. May God protect both of them, all other Ayatollahs and us laymen.

 

Brother Wayfarer786

 

Yes, your point is valid. Indeed, we should debate with our research completed. Chess is haram and I am ready to have a debate on this issue.

 

It's a part of personal experience that everything that causes three defects has been declared haram in Islam. Those three are:

1) Waste of time

2) Mental weakness

3) Physical weakness

So you made up your own criteria of what is deemed halal and haram? This makes playing video games haram too. Watching halal TV is haram too (waste of time, mental and physical weakness). Keep in mind anything done obsessively most likely would be self damaging even if its praying (since you would be neglecting other responsibilities).

Never in your argument you should bring what Sunnis believe. We don't care what they do, or how they reach a ruling.

Chess is not haram as stated by Rahbar. To question someone of that high caliber, a person needs some basic understanding of Faqih. You have none. You can come up with all the excuses, but if you were to give your reasoning to even an 'Alim they would tell you to go to Hawza study for 20+ years and then you will reach a position where you can challenge other Marja's rulings. 

For now, just follow your Marja and stop challenging others rulings since you have no 'ilm in Fiqh

Edited by awaiting_for_the.12th

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So you made up your own criteria of what is deemed halal and haram? This makes playing video games haram too. Watching halal TV is haram too (waste of time, mental and physical weakness). Keep in mind anything done obsessively most likely would be self damaging even if its praying (since you would be neglecting other responsibilities).

Never in your argument you should bring what Sunnis believe. We don't care what they do, or how they reach a ruling.

Chess is not haram as stated by Rahbar. To question someone of that high caliber, a person needs some basic understanding of Faqih. You have none. You can come up with all the excuses, but if you were to give your reasoning to even an 'Alim they would tell you to go to Hawza study for 20+ years and then you will reach a position where you can challenge other Marja's rulings. 

For now, just follow your Marja and stop challenging others rulings since you have no 'ilm in Fiqh

 

So why did Ayatollah Sistani declare chess to be haram?

 

As for your counter-arguments, brother, video games don't have all those three defects. They don't attract a man like chess. Chess attracts everyone who plays it even for the first time. Watching television is not a waste of time if you're watching news or National Geographic Channel etc. It doesn't attract a man like chess moreover. 

 

I respect Ayatollah Khamenei but if he declares it haram to eat cow then obviously I'll laugh at that verdict. I love and respect him but that doesn't mean I will follow him blindly.

 

We are allowed to question Ayatollahs, aren't we? 

Edited by Modest Muslim

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

 

 

paiam

would  u watch ur mouth please and have some respect?!

 

i don't have to prove anything to u,coz i'm not here to change anyone's mind or to prove anything to anyone.

i just stated what i believe in,my personal opinion and source of info that i trust,and u started attacking me.

 

thanks anyway for the respectful words  :)

 

 

salam

Sayed Sistani is my marja' too.though some of his fatwas don't make sense to me(like the chess fatwa)..

u forgot to mention that khamenei doesn't even have a risala of his own.

 

 

to become a mujtahid,he'd have to publish a risala (dissertation),which he hasn't,and receive a public endorsement by at least one grand ayatullah,which he also hasn't.though he has a website,and books written by him,and Q and A books...

besides,most of the fatwas that he has are those of sayed khomeini.

 

Then a wahhabi wrote as a joke "why not follow them both" you, becoming satisfied that someone finally noticed your posts answered

coz they are not on the same page :shifty:

 

Then posts were made one after the other and you didn't get anyone elses attention. Nobody noticed Little Fatima NMA so you actually got mad and wrote

you guys are unbelievable :wacko:

why haven't anyone replied to my post #4( which shows very clearly that khamenei is not a marja)???he might be the wali of those who accept his welayat,he might be the leader ......but how on earth did he become a marja without respecting the marja rulings?where is his published risala?where is the grand ayatullah that "publically" approved him as a marja??nothing...

 

Hence I answered you because I unfortunately also felt a Little frustrated that here we have yet another jolly trying to degrade Imam al-Khamenei(HA). So don't tell me that

 

 

 

i'm not here to change anyone's mind or to prove anything to anyone.

i just stated what i believe in,my personal opinion and source of info that i trust,and u started attacking me.

 

No, you were looking to prove something. But you are correct on one part. I should not let your provocation make me act unislamically and for that bit of the story I apologise.

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The ulema  who see chess as halal now, like Khamenei, makerem shirazi etc.. ( And also khomeini and lankarani before..), maybe use these hadiths to justify their fatwa:

 

 

2 – And from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad from Ibn Abi Najran from Muthanna the stuffer from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: Backgammon and chess are maysir.

 

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/trade/means-of-earning/chapter-104

 

Now: Chess= not a  gambling tool , therefore halal.

 

Hence, they claim that chess is not haram in itself.

Edited by Nima

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Maysir what dose it mean? Yes usually the argument is that because the haram aspect of it is not there it is not haram usually another thing we see this with is musical instruments

Edited by Maitham

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The ulema  who see chess as halal now, like Khamenei, makerem shirazi etc.. ( And also khomeini and lankarani before..), maybe use these hadiths to justify their fatwa:

 

 

2 – And from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad from Ibn Abi Najran from Muthanna the stuffer from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: Backgammon and chess are maysir.

 

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/trade/means-of-earning/chapter-104

 

Now: Chess= not gambling, therefore halal.

 

Thus, they claim that chess is not haram in itself.

 

Nice bunch of hadiths and a nice point for debate.

 

Read these as well:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/85.htm

 

http://www.islamhelpline.com/node/4006

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ّFirst off answer to the comments Fatima,

Who said that being a mujtahid requires a risala 'amaliyyah?

 

Ayatullah al-'Udhma Fadhil Lankarani(RA) had said "(When I med him for the first time) he was a teacher in Mashhad. I asked him what courses he offered and he said Makasib. Makasib is of the most important and most difficult knowledge books we have. In my opinion he is a jurist (faqih) and a mujtahid." (Newspaper of Risalat, date 22/3/68 in persian calendar which is year 1989)

 

This is only one grand ayatullah and we have many, like Ayatullah al-'Udhma Nasir Makarim Shirazi, Ayatullah Jawadi 'Amuli, and then we have great personalities like martyr Ayatullah Beheshti being led in jamaa'ah prayer by him.

 

Imam al-Khamenei has been a mujtahid for the most time of his entire life and he is more knowledgable than most grand scholars today. His risalah is stated to be that of Imam al-Khomayni just that he has published a book with the differences between him and Imam al-Khomayni. The requirement for someone to be a marja' is fulfilling the "Jami' al-Sharayi'" points which are 10:

Being

a man - check

alive - check

a twelver shi'ah - check

born halal - check

baligh (have reached puberty age - check

aqil (sane) - check

'adil  (meaning not comitting greater sins and not insisting on minor sins so that nobody gets any ideas to present their own made accusations) - check

not attached to this world (ihtiyat wajib) - double check

a'lam (more capable of others in grabbing knowledge of islamic laws) - check

mujtahid - by the saying of great scholars such as ayatullah al-'udhma lankarani... check

 

...and he's a marja', a very valid one so please stop your excrutiatingly warrying doubtings and accusations.

Imam al-Khamenei(HA) is a marja', I just don't understand why followers of great personalitiies such as Ayatullah al-'Udhma Sistani tend to be so hostile and always try to degrade the great position of Imam al-Khamenei(HA)?

What is it that you're so afraid of always?

If you guys are iraqis or other arabs and feel threatened by the iranian leader know that ayatullah sistani also is iranian and both of these scholars have their roots from the arabs... so just stop being so anti-iran you poor creaturs.

yes i asked for replies,normal ones,does this(in red) seem like a normal objective answer??

your first reply to me you had the intention of fighting obviously(what u said in red tells so).

and i,sadly,can't have a serious discussion or arguement with people like u(ego-centered).

 

salam.

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then a wahhabi wrote as a joke "why not follow them both" you, becoming satisfied that someone finally noticed your posts answered

 

btw,that brother who wrote this ,Wasn't replying to me.so stop being a mad,self-centered,arrogant little  boy!

 

peace. :)

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Close this thread

 

People like you can't understand problems like this, brother. Word is unable to progress compatible to narrow-minded people. If you don't like this thread that you can go away. I posted this thread not for the reasons for which you want to close it.

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(salam), 

 

1) You can't come to a conclusion about how knowledgable a person is by visiting their websites. Neither Sayyid Sistani nor Sayyid Khamenei made their websites themselves. In fact, I doubt if either of them have even visited their own websites recently. Their websites are not in the least bit representative of their knowledge.

There must be hundreds (maybe thousands) of rulings missing from their websites and there have been and will continue to be errors on both websites (glitches, typos, etc.). That you like one's website over the other's is not a good enough reason to start following another Marja1

You don't know for sure if Sayyid Khamenei has or has not solved the 'modern problems' you speak about. Perhaps he has and they just haven't put it on his website so you don't really know. Furthermore, have you really looked everywhere for Sayyid Khamenei's views on these issues? I doubt it. You are basing your conclusion on what could be termed as mere 'skimming' through both of their websites. 

 

2) It is also unlikely that Sayyid Khamenei is unaware of something as basic as the proof for and against chess. Don't make such assumptions. Personally, I lean towards the prohibition of chess but I don't go as far as to say Sayyid Khamenei (or Sayyid Khomenei, are you aware he allowed chess as well if gambling is not involved?) or the scores of other mujtahideen have allowed prohibited acts. That's accusing them of a grave sin.

You may not intend to be contemptible but by saying someone who is followed by millions as the Marja` Taqlid has less knowledge than you or me, you actually are disrespecting him. It's like telling a car mechanic he doesn't know what the gear of a car is, or a cell biologist that she doesn't know what the cytoplasm means. 

 

If you and I know the arguments against chess, Sayyid Khamenei must know them too. And despite all that if he comes to another conclusion, it may be us who do not know/understand something that he does. Keep in mind it is also a sin to prohibit something that is allowed by Allah. So the least you can do is give him the benefit of doubt given his calibre and not be so quick to undermine his knowledge (especially since he's not the only one who allows chess).

 

3) There's no such thing as Khamenei-ism or Sistani-ism. I'm sure if they themselves hear such words being spoken they would be angered by them. There are already too many 'isms' around for us to start creating new ones. Try and avoid using such divisive terminology, it doesn't do anyone any good. 

 

I am a muqallid of Sayyid Sistani, by the way. 

 

(salam) 

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(salam), 

 

1) You can't come to a conclusion about how knowledgable a person is by visiting their websites. Neither Sayyid Sistani nor Sayyid Khamenei made their websites themselves. In fact, I doubt if either of them have even visited their own websites recently. Their websites are not in the least bit representative of their knowledge.

There must be hundreds (maybe thousands) of rulings missing from their websites and there have been and will continue to be errors on both websites (glitches, typos, etc.). That you like one's website over the other's is not a good enough reason to start following another Marja1

You don't know for sure if Sayyid Khamenei has or has not solved the 'modern problems' you speak about. Perhaps he has and they just haven't put it on his website so you don't really know. Furthermore, have you really looked everywhere for Sayyid Khamenei's views on these issues? I doubt it. You are basing your conclusion on what could be termed as mere 'skimming' through both of their websites. 

 

2) It is also unlikely that Sayyid Khamenei is unaware of something as basic as the proof for and against chess. Don't make such assumptions. Personally, I lean towards the prohibition of chess but I don't go as far as to say Sayyid Khamenei (or Sayyid Khomenei, are you aware he allowed chess as well if gambling is not involved?) or the scores of other mujtahideen have allowed prohibited acts. That's accusing them of a grave sin.

You may not intend to be contemptible but by saying someone who is followed by millions as the Marja` Taqlid has less knowledge than you or me, you actually are disrespecting him. It's like telling a car mechanic he doesn't know what the gear of a car is, or a cell biologist that she doesn't know what the cytoplasm means. 

 

If you and I know the arguments against chess, Sayyid Khamenei must know them too. And despite all that if he comes to another conclusion, it may be us who do not know/understand something that he does. Keep in mind it is also a sin to prohibit something that is allowed by Allah. So the least you can do is give him the benefit of doubt given his calibre and not be so quick to undermine his knowledge (especially since he's not the only one who allows chess).

 

3) There's no such thing as Khamenei-ism or Sistani-ism. I'm sure if they themselves hear such words being spoken they would be angered by them. There are already too many 'isms' around for us to start creating new ones. Try and avoid using such divisive terminology, it doesn't do anyone any good. 

 

I am a muqallid of Sayyid Sistani, by the way. 

 

(salam)

 

(wasalam)

 

Why do you follow Ayatollah Sistani? Why don't you follow Ayatollah Khamenei? What's your criteria for following a person? My criteria is knowledge. Moreover, of two people are equal in knowledge then how should we chose one of them because we can't follow two people at a time? Answer all these questions and then you'll know how important my thread is.

 

Both Ayatollah Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenei have their own official websites. Obviously, they're run by their subordinates. But I'm a stupid layman. I admit I know nothing about religion. I'm not even equal to the dust of an Ayatollah's shoes. I depend upon them for betterment of my religious affairs. Their websites are the best sources for their verdicts. 

 

Ayatollah Sistani solved modern problems and displayed them over his website. If he could do so then why couldn't Ayatollah Khamenei? I love and respect him but can't I question him? Can't I ask His Holiness Ayatollah Khamenei (and I really consider him as a sacred person) why don't he tell us what his view is on modern issues?

 

Ayatollah Khamenei said that chess was halal. Ayatollah Sistani said that chess was haram. My question is: Why is there such huge a difference between them? Moreover, why're there so many maraji? Why aren't we in taqlid of only one marja? Why does a man make one thing halal but another one make it haram? Why do we discuss unity between Shia and non-Shia Muslims but aren't united ourselves?

 

I didn't accuse anyone of anything, brother. It is you guys who're attacking me and trying to portray me as a conspirator who is here to malign Shia Muslim scholars. I'm here to point you towards a serious problem.

 

And what did you say? Why don't you think before speaking? You said, 'I don't go as far as to say Sayyid Khamenei or the scores of other mujtahideen have allowed prohibited acts'. You said yourself that you believe chess is haram? OK, I am not accusing anyone of anything as well but my question is: Why those two Ayatollahs go opposite to each other?

 

I never claimed anything for myself. Chess is haram. Go and see for yourself. Don't act like a maniac. I'm a straightforward man. If chess is haram then it's haram. Ayatollah Khamenei is a learned man but he can err. We love him but we can question him. I protest for all this nonsense among Shia Muslims. Why're we making him a pope? He himself would never allow any claim of infallibility for himself?

 

Can't I have direct access to Ayatollah Khamenei? I wanna ask him for myself why he thought chess in halal. I believe he would give me a serious reason because he's a real scholar and if a real scholars errs, his intention is pure.

 

That Sistani-ism and Khamenei-ism was a joke. Take it lightly.

 

You people are taking me wrongly. I didn't mean to degrade someone. I did what I read in Tohfatul Awam and comparison of scholars is allowed in it. 

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People like you can't understand problems like this, brother. Word is unable to progress compatible to narrow-minded people. If you don't like this thread that you can go away. I posted this thread not for the reasons for which you want to close it.

 

WOW people on here are SUPER nice. So Islamic!!

 

Back to the scholars bit.

 

Who we follow is only relevant to us as individuals, no one else cares. So it's up to us to decide who we believe is most knowledgeable and just go from there. 

 

Obviously one of the criteria for following someone is believing that they are the most knowledgeable of scholars. Therefore we will be going in a non-ending circle where Sayed Sistani followers will swear he's most knowledgeable and Ayatollah Khamenei followers will swear he's most knowledgeable. 

 

The solution is this ; no scholar is infallible. Both Sayed Sistani and Ayatollah Khamenei know that they aren't infallible, the quicker we realize this the better off we will be.

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When i was  too pick my marja it was out of these two that i was deciding.

I chose Imam Khamenei.

 

1. He has many videos available and i have not come across anything in the last few years what i have watched that i disagree with everything ive watched makes sense to me.

 

2. He is a great leader no doubt he is literally leading the shia muslim super power country. Some have tried saying how can a leader be a scholar etc but then what about our imams i know its not the same as there infallible but the same analogy could be applied.

 

3. True he does not have a risalah but does have a website with allot of Q n A and also has many books available.

 

watch how he talks from his ahklaq and courage its clear he is a great leader and person to follow

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrDu5ytC6fwI

 

 

I take nothing away from sayed sistani as i think there both amazing scholars.

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Usually there is a list from qum that list six Mariana as knowledgeable all of these are fine to do taqleed to according to that list and we find which one is the alam upon Alam in there. I personally looked at everyone's fatwa when wanting answers that I could usually my questions are to ayatollah sistani's office. I personally don't think debating on who knows more is smart rather we should realize all these maraja are probably pretty much similar in fiqh

Edited by Maitham

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