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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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رقم الحديث: 18485

(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ السَّائِبِ ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : " لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ سورة الرعد آية 7 ، وَضَعَ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَدَهُ عَلَى صَدْرِهِ ، فَقَالَ : " أَنَا الْمُنْذِرُ ، وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ " . وَأَوْمَأَ بِيَدِهِ إِلَى مَنْكِبِ عَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ : " أَنْتَ الْهَادِي يَا عَلِيُّ ، بِكَ يَهْتَدِي الْمُهْتَدُونَ بَعْدِي " . وَقَالَ آخَرُونَ : مَعْنَاهُ : لِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ دَاعٍ


Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari, Dzhamiul Bayan, Surah Thunder, verse 7.

Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the verse was sent down ( You are - just ...) Messenger of Allah (pbuh) putted his hand on his chest and said: "I am the warner." Then he pointed towards Ali and said: "You are the guide (Hadi) Oh Ali! With your help will find the path those who will find the right path.

 

 

 

 

Fath al-Bari by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, 8/376 we read that Hadith mentioned by Jarir al-Tabari in ''Dzhamiul Bayan'' is Hassan (Good)



 

والمستغرب ما أخرجه الطبري بإسناد حسن من طريق سعيد بن جبير عن ابن عباس قال لما نزلت هذه الآية وضع رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يده على صدره وقال : أنا المنذر . وأومأ إلى علي وقال أنت الهادي بك يهتدي المهتدون بعدي

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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رقم الحديث: 18485

(حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ السَّائِبِ ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : " لَمَّا نَزَلَتْ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ سورة الرعد آية 7 ، وَضَعَ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَدَهُ عَلَى صَدْرِهِ ، فَقَالَ : " أَنَا الْمُنْذِرُ ، وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ " . وَأَوْمَأَ بِيَدِهِ إِلَى مَنْكِبِ عَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ : " أَنْتَ الْهَادِي يَا عَلِيُّ ، بِكَ يَهْتَدِي الْمُهْتَدُونَ بَعْدِي " . وَقَالَ آخَرُونَ : مَعْنَاهُ : لِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ دَاعٍ

Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari, Dzhamiul Bayan, Surah Thunder, verse 7.

Narrated Ibn Abbas: When the verse was sent down ( You are - just ...) Messenger of Allah (pbuh) putted his hand on his chest and said: "I am the warner." Then he pointed towards Ali and said: "You are the guide (Hadi) Oh Ali! With your help will find the path those who will find the right path.

Fath al-Bari by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, 8/376 we read that Hadith mentioned by Jarir al-Tabari in ''Dzhamiul Bayan'' is Hassan (Good)

والمستغرب ما أخرجه الطبري بإسناد حسن من طريق سعيد بن جبير عن ابن عباس قال لما نزلت هذه الآية وضع رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يده على صدره وقال : أنا المنذر . وأومأ إلى علي وقال أنت الهادي بك يهتدي المهتدون بعدي

My dear brother if you revise my previous post I said the prophet (pbuh) is the guide and your ims were also guides BUT to say the prophet's (pbuh) guidance finished when he passed away then this is unacceptable, because although the holy prophet (pbuh) was not here his example/ guidance lived on inshallah and it was through this guidance that ali a.s guided the Muslims. Ali a.s was an advisor/guide to our caliphs.

The problem we have is shia say that after the prophet (pbuh) passed away his guidance was ended and ali a.s became the guide.

To a certain degree this is true BUT ultimately the prophet (pbuh) was still THEE ACTUAL GUIDE because imam ali a.s was leading by the example/guidance of the prophet (pbuh).

You can see the screen shot on the site which the ISLAMIC history pointed out where it says the prophet ( pbuh) was no longer a guide once he passed away. The ISLAMIC history bought up the site when he said I was using that site for my evidence.

We SUNNIS believe the prophet (pbuh) is the ultimate guide to ali a.s and ali a.s was the secondary guide and the prophet (pbuh) was Thee actual guide to ali a.s through his teachings. Whereas shia say the prophet (pbuh) was only a Warner and ali a.s was the guide when the wahi were coming to the prophet (pbuh) and he (pbuh) was guiding everyone and that guidance lives on through till this day in the prophet (pbuh) teachings and examples.

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I agree, but when you say take our time.how much time we talking??

May Allah bless you and me and forgive us

AMEEN

Assalamu alaykum

 

 

It shall be like this: if for example your are Busy and cannot reply,

It will not mean much, as I will also be busy. So basically all the time,

There will be no time limit for replying. 

I will try to make my seven point short Sentences of my understanding of the verse soon. Inshalla.

Allah bless you. Salam.

 

(salam)

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It shall be like this: if for example your are Busy and cannot reply,

It will not mean much, as I will also be busy. So basically all the time,

There will be no time limit for replying.

I will try to make my seven point short Sentences of my understanding of the verse soon. Inshalla.

Allah bless you. Salam.

(salam)

Agreed.

i will give you my refutation to ulil amr soon

May Allah (swt) bless you and me and forgive us

AMEEN

Assalamu alaykum

It shall be like this: if for example your are Busy and cannot reply,

It will not mean much, as I will also be busy. So basically all the time,

There will be no time limit for replying.

I will try to make my seven point short Sentences of my understanding of the verse soon. Inshalla.

Allah bless you. Salam.

(salam)

Also brother when you leave a reply could you please send me a private message so I know and I don't miss your reply incase other people start commenting and your reply is left behind and I will send you a private message when I reply to you

I don't mean send your reply in a private message but when you leave your reply on this thread please let me know you have left me a reply by sending me a brief message by private message saying you have left a reply on the thread

May Allah (swt) bless you and me and forgive us

AMEEN

Assalamu alaykum

Edited by Just the truth
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Salaam brother just the truth. The discussion going on here is general and i think you need to understand that. You sound as you are taking things personal and you respond in a somewhat attacking and aggresive manner.'i just want to point this out. You respond as though you are seriously right and the other is seriously wrong and your replies have a sarcastic touch. You need to change your stance.

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Salaam brother just the truth. The discussion going on here is general and i think you need to understand that. You sound as you are taking things personal and you respond in a somewhat attacking and aggresive manner.'i just want to point this out. You respond as though you are seriously right and the other is seriously wrong and your replies have a sarcastic touch. You need to change your stance.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't mean to act aggressive.

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Salaam brother just the truth. Lets go through your recent post bit by bit. You said:

"According to the Ahle Sunnah, as long as the Ulul Amre abides by the Quran and the Sunnah then, that is fine but if he goes against the Quran and the Sunnah then, he can kiss his thrown good bye".

Now lets take a look at this part of the Ulul Amre verse:

"And if you disagree with the Ulul Amre", in your previous posts you said:

"one could disagree with the Ulul Amre over anything, absolutely anything at all".

Now in your recent post you have just limited the disagreement, with the Ulul Amre, to the Quran and the Sunnah that, if the Ulul Amre goes against the Quran and the Sunnah then, we have a disagreement with the Ulul Amre or we are in disagreement with the Ulul Amre, otherwise you said " everything is fine".

If the Ulul Amre goes against the Quran and the Sunnah then, this would be the disagreement with the Ulul Amre and what would be the solution here or what would we need to do???? Refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and how would we do that or how would this be done??? You said " refer back to the Quran and the Sunnah, is actually referring back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh).

So how would this be possible, since the disagreement with the Ulul Amre is over the Quran and the Sunnah itself??? The Ulul Amre has gone against the Quran and the Sunnah, so this is the actual disagreement, now how would you refer back???

Why don't you explain yourself here??? Is this a misunderstanding, on your behalf, regarding the Ulul Amre verse or do we have double standards here???

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AMEEN my brother you are massively mistaken if you think I'm in a state of desperation or I deliberately miss out any of your questions. I am nowhere near in a state of desperation because I know in on HAQQ.

I will answer all your questions but you have to reply to every single one.

1. According to AHLE sunnah as long as he abides by quran and sunnah then he is fine otherwise he can kiss his throne.....good bye

So basically what you have said here is that, the disagreement with the Ulul Amre is conditional and limited. If he goes against the Quran and Sunnah then, there is a disagreement, otherwise he has to be obeyed. Where as in your previous posts you said that, the disagreement can be over anything. Tell me which Muslim leader would be stupid enough to go against Quran and Sunnah??? And if he does then you are more worthy of being the Ulul Amre than he is. Why would you pick someone like this as your leader anyway??? If you could give me a few examples, from past and present, where the Ulul Amre has gone against Quran and Sunnah.

2. The second he goes against quran it sunnah we refer him to quran and sunnah and if he refuses to comply then he gets the same treatment as abdullah bin Zubair and zayd ibn ali a.s gave to the ulil and if their tune...and that's rebellion.

If he has gone against Quran and Sunnah then, how are you going to refer him back???? He must be rather stupid to go against Quran and Sunnah to begin with. Why would you select such an idiot as your leader to begin with??? What treatment did Abdullah Ibne Zubair and Zaid Ibne Ali give to their Ulul Amre??? Who was the Ulul Amre in their time and how did they go against Quran and Sunnah???

3. You're right we're back to square one. So why do t you refer me to the imam of our time??? Sorry I forgot you can't. Hold up but you've got hadith from imams...... Actually sorry we also differ in this.... Aaaahhhhhh... Bloody hell back to square one... BRILLIANT.

My brother if we had one precise verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said that he will send imams for this ummah then the whole matter would have been over.

I don't have a clue what the hell you are on about here. Please elaborate! We don't refer anything to anyone according to your manner and thinking. We just stick with the 3rd in command and that is the Ulul Amre?

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì clearly says in quran that he sent imams for previous ummah/nations so I don't see why if he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì was going to send imams for us he couldn't have just said it as clearly as he said it in the quran for previous nations.

Do you mean that Allah mentioned about sending Imaams, in the previous books, before the Imaams were sent???

1. Obey means to obey of course. But brither do tell me one thing. As myslims we are told to obey our parents like if they give you an order to go to the shop you must obey or if they say be home for 9pm YIU must obey but what if your parents said dont pray salah!!! Wgat then would you still obey??? You see obedience can be conditional.

We haven't been told to obey our parents. Show me the verse where we have. Why on earth would Muslims parents tell you to not pray or fast??? Or go against Quran and Sunnah??? Muslims parents make you stick to Quran and Sunnah, not go against it. Now if parents stood by Quran and Sunnah but told their son to become a doctor and the son refused and wanted to be an engineer, so would the son have to obey his parents??? If obedience can be conditional then, where are the conditions, regarding obedience towards the Ulul Amre???

2. You've yourself distinguished between them when you've write raziallahu anhu after abu bakr (r.a) name and nothing after yazid.

If the ulil amr said drink alcohol don't pray then he is not to be obeyed but if he says pray don't drink then he is to be obeyed.

As long as he rules by quran and sunnah we obey as soon as he doesn't then goodbye.

So by writing "raziyallaho ta'Allah anho" with someone means, we have distinguished between the good and the bad and the pious and the corrupt??? Ok, so we have the authority to decide??? So those who write (ra) with Yazeed, according to you, have also decided??? Well you've certainly justified them, with your remarkable theory.

3. Yazid was a laanti who killed the AHLE BAYT so whoever says he was good well...... May Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì guide them. Regarding abu bakr r.a he never committed any atrocities and red by quran and sunnah.

Well you've just said if you write (ra) with someone, you have distinguished between the good and the bad and the pious and the corrupt. On one hand you justify the followers of Yazeed and on the other hand you criticise them???

4. Dictatorship means a man/women who dictates. (Adolf hitler. Terrorism is when somebody terrorises another. (Bombings).

Dictatorship means, being in authority and using violence, force and threatening behaviour to have your demands met and decisions accepted. A dictator is someone who does exactly this, now did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) do this???

Terrorism is, not being in authority and using means of violence, force and threatening behaviour to have your demands met and this is exactly what a terrorist does, for example Muavia, Talah, Zubair Aisha etc.

5. Principles of course. As long as he rules with quran and sunnah fine if he doesn't then good bye.

Already answered this and questioned you on it.

6. Rebel is referred to as somebody who rebels and revolt is the result of his rebellion. We can rebel against the ulil amr if he goes against quran and sunnah.

Why would he go against Quran and Sunnah to begin with??? And why hasn't Allah clearly mentioned this in the ULul Amre verse??? I thought the disagreement was over anything at all not, just Quran and Sunnah???

1. You finally get to the point.....finally.

The people who rebelled against the fourth rightly guided caliph were rebels becauseeady of their rebellion against the ulil amr.

They were rebels and they were in the wrong and the ulil and was not corrupt. The rebels especially umm ul momineen aisha r.a realised her mistake afterwards and was forgiven by ali a.s. she made a mistake.

You call breaking the command of Allah a mistake???

If ali a.s had believed she was guilty of her actions and she carried out rebellion deliberately then he would have took her head of because under sharia law she was a myrderer but it all boils down to intention. Unless you're saying a.s never carried out a part of sharia.

Hazrath Ali (as) never threatened or drew his sword on women, children or the elderly. It's got nothing to do with Aisha (ra) being innocent or Ali (as) thinking she was.

No he never "harboured" the murderers you say it as though he only had 10 to 20 people in jus army.

Ali a.s had thousands of soldiers so his could he know who exactly infiltrated his camp.... What??? You think he did a head count with a register with names and addresses?

Some Ahle Sunnah think he harboured and gave refuge to killers of the third Khalif. Muavia have names and demanded these men be handed over to him But Hazrath Ali (as) refused and wouldn't give up those men.

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AMEEN my brother you are massively mistaken if you think I'm in a state of desperation or I deliberately miss out any of your questions. I am nowhere near in a state of desperation because I know in on HAQQ.

I will answer all your questions but you have to reply to every single one.

1. According to AHLE sunnah as long as he abides by quran and sunnah then he is fine otherwise he can kiss his throne.....good bye

So basically what you have said here is that, the disagreement with the Ulul Amre is conditional and limited. If he goes against the Quran and Sunnah then, there is a disagreement, otherwise he has to be obeyed. Where as in your previous posts you said that, the disagreement can be over anything. Tell me which Muslim leader would be stupid enough to go against Quran and Sunnah??? And if he does then you are more worthy of being the Ulul Amre than he is. Why would you pick someone like this as your leader anyway??? If you could give me a few examples, from past and present, where the Ulul Amre has gone against Quran and Sunnah.

2. The second he goes against quran it sunnah we refer him to quran and sunnah and if he refuses to comply then he gets the same treatment as abdullah bin Zubair and zayd ibn ali a.s gave to the ulil and if their tune...and that's rebellion.

If he has gone against Quran and Sunnah then, how are you going to refer him back???? He must be rather stupid to go against Quran and Sunnah to begin with. Why would you select such an idiot as your leader to begin with??? What treatment did Abdullah Ibne Zubair and Zaid Ibne Ali give to their Ulul Amre??? Who was the Ulul Amre in their time and how did they go against Quran and Sunnah???

3. You're right we're back to square one. So why do t you refer me to the imam of our time??? Sorry I forgot you can't. Hold up but you've got hadith from imams...... Actually sorry we also differ in this.... Aaaahhhhhh... Bloody hell back to square one... BRILLIANT.

My brother if we had one precise verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said that he will send imams for this ummah then the whole matter would have been over.

I don't have a clue what the hell you are on about here. Please elaborate! We don't refer anything to anyone according to your manner and thinking. We just stick with the 3rd in command and that is the Ulul Amre?

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì clearly says in quran that he sent imams for previous ummah/nations so I don't see why if he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì was going to send imams for us he couldn't have just said it as clearly as he said it in the quran for previous nations.

Do you mean that Allah mentioned about sending Imaams, in the previous books, before the Imaams were sent???

1. Obey means to obey of course. But brither do tell me one thing. As myslims we are told to obey our parents like if they give you an order to go to the shop you must obey or if they say be home for 9pm YIU must obey but what if your parents said dont pray salah!!! Wgat then would you still obey??? You see obedience can be conditional.

We haven't been told to obey our parents. Show me the verse where we have. Why on earth would Muslims parents tell you to not pray or fast??? Or go against Quran and Sunnah??? Muslims parents make you stick to Quran and Sunnah, not go against it. Now if parents stood by Quran and Sunnah but told their son to become a doctor and the son refused and wanted to be an engineer, so would the son have to obey his parents??? If obedience can be conditional then, where are the conditions, regarding obedience towards the Ulul Amre???

2. You've yourself distinguished between them when you've write raziallahu anhu after abu bakr (r.a) name and nothing after yazid.

If the ulil amr said drink alcohol don't pray then he is not to be obeyed but if he says pray don't drink then he is to be obeyed.

As long as he rules by quran and sunnah we obey as soon as he doesn't then goodbye.

So by writing "raziyallaho ta'Allah anho" with someone means, we have distinguished between the good and the bad and the pious and the corrupt??? Ok, so we have the authority to decide??? So those who write (ra) with Yazeed, according to you, have also decided??? Well you've certainly justified them, with your remarkable theory.

3. Yazid was a laanti who killed the AHLE BAYT so whoever says he was good well...... May Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì guide them. Regarding abu bakr r.a he never committed any atrocities and red by quran and sunnah.

Well you've just said if you write (ra) with someone, you have distinguished between the good and the bad and the pious and the corrupt. On one hand you justify the followers of Yazeed and on the other hand you criticise them???

4. Dictatorship means a man/women who dictates. (Adolf hitler. Terrorism is when somebody terrorises another. (Bombings).

Dictatorship means, being in authority and using violence, force and threatening behaviour to have your demands met and decisions accepted. A dictator is someone who does exactly this, now did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) do this???

Terrorism is, not being in authority and using means of violence, force and threatening behaviour to have your demands met and this is exactly what a terrorist does, for example Muavia, Talah, Zubair Aisha etc.

5. Principles of course. As long as he rules with quran and sunnah fine if he doesn't then good bye.

Already answered this and questioned you on it.

6. Rebel is referred to as somebody who rebels and revolt is the result of his rebellion. We can rebel against the ulil amr if he goes against quran and sunnah.

Why would he go against Quran and Sunnah to begin with??? And why hasn't Allah clearly mentioned this in the ULul Amre verse??? I thought the disagreement was over anything at all not, just Quran and Sunnah???

1. You finally get to the point.....finally.

The people who rebelled against the fourth rightly guided caliph were rebels becauseeady of their rebellion against the ulil amr.

They were rebels and they were in the wrong and the ulil and was not corrupt. The rebels especially umm ul momineen aisha r.a realised her mistake afterwards and was forgiven by ali a.s. she made a mistake.

You call breaking the command of Allah a mistake???

If ali a.s had believed she was guilty of her actions and she carried out rebellion deliberately then he would have took her head of because under sharia law she was a myrderer but it all boils down to intention. Unless you're saying a.s never carried out a part of sharia.

Hazrath Ali (as) never threatened or drew his sword on women, children or the elderly. It's got nothing to do with Aisha (ra) being innocent or Ali (as) thinking she was.

No he never "harboured" the murderers you say it as though he only had 10 to 20 people in jus army.

Ali a.s had thousands of soldiers so his could he know who exactly infiltrated his camp.... What??? You think he did a head count with a register with names and addresses?

Some Ahle Sunnah think he harboured and gave refuge to killers of the third Khalif. Muavia have names and demanded these men be handed over to him But Hazrath Ali (as) refused and wouldn't give up those men.

Brother AMEEN you're right I'm wrong I put my hands up. You can pat yourself on the back.

Well done.

Now please go and find someone else to baffle because Ive had enough.

I will only answer to the ISLAMIC history once I have his answer ready

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The prophet  (pbuh) guidance is his example which ALL Muslims took including your imams.

 

 

I cant find the Quranic verse you quoted which states that Prophet (sawa) was the warner and guide?

 

When we produce authentic narration as per your standards, you hit around the bush. 

 

Imam Ali (as) is the shepherd of the Ummah, if you choose to ignore him then this is what our Prophet (sawa) has to say: 

 

Tibrani writes from Al-Matlab bin Abdullah Ibn Hantab from his father. He 
says that I heard the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) 
announce at Johfa: “Am I not more superior to you than yourselves?” The 
people replied: Yes, O Messenger of Allah! The Prophet then said: “I will 
question you (hold you responsible) about two things; the Quran and my 
Ahlul Bayt.

 

 

His last words: 

 

Tibrani writes in his book Al-Awsat that Ibne Umar remarked: 
“The last words of the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allahu ‘alaihi wa 
Aalihi wa sallim) were, ‘You have ignored my successors who are 
from my Ahlul Bayt .’ (that is, I can see how you behave with the 
trusts that I leave behind among you).
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I cant find the Quranic verse you quoted which states that Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå was the warner and guide?

When we produce authentic narration as per your standards, you hit around the bush.

Imam Ali (as) is the shepherd of the Ummah, if you choose to ignore him then this is what our Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå has to say:

Tibrani writes from Al-Matlab bin Abdullah Ibn Hantab from his father. He

says that I heard the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

announce at Johfa: “Am I not more superior to you than yourselves?” The

people replied: Yes, O Messenger of Allah! The Prophet then said: “I will

question you (hold you responsible) about two things; the Quran and my

Ahlul Bayt.

His last words:

Tibrani writes in his book Al-Awsat that Ibne Umar remarked:

“The last words of the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allahu ‘alaihi wa

Aalihi wa sallim) were, ‘You have ignored my successors who are

from my Ahlul Bayt .’ (that is, I can see how you behave with the

trusts that I leave behind among you).

My brother please read previous posts to see what I believe and why I believe it

Read my reply to rasul

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Thankyou very much for settling the matter with me. It's got nothing to do with baffle. you've clearly run out of answers and excuses, so just say so. Take a look at your previous post. You admitted that you couldn't answer and reply, then you settled and decided to leave.

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Thankyou very much for settling the matter with me. It's got nothing to do with baffle. you've clearly run out of answers and excuses, so just say so. Take a look at your previous post. You admitted that you couldn't answer and reply, then you settled and decided to leave.

Lol... If that's what helps you sleep at night.... Ok.

Just keep watching how this thread proceeds then you will see if I've run out of answers.

The only reason I'm no longer interested in talking to you is because you're very very unreasonable.

I've got answers to all your questions but I don't want to talk to you anymore because you deliberately beat around the bush.

Il give a small example.

When you revert to islam you still have to be obedient to your parents just as long as they don't tell you to do anything un inslamic as soon as they tell you to do something un ISLAMIC obedience to them is over. The same goes for Muslim parents eg; if your parents don't practice islam and tell you not to practice to then your obedience to them regarding islam is null but you still have to obey them in other matters.

This doesn't mean for eg they can force you to marry because that is in ISLAMIC but in other matters you have to obey them in order for their to be law and order in the house.

The worst thing in a household is a disobedient child.

Ask any alim from sunni shia wahabbi they will confirm what I just said

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Dear Friend, I think While going Through our ( Seven Points ) Which We will conclude on our Argument Inshalla.

I think we should First Discuss The Meanings or necessity of Authority. To avoid loopholes when we go Further.

(salam)

My dear brother let me reply to your previous post on ulil amr then we will proceed. I will reply tonight

Inshallah

Assalamu alaykum

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Lol... If that's what helps you sleep at night.... Ok.

All discussions and debates have seriousness attached and tied to them but when you fall short, in any discussion or debate then, start being funny to gain some lost weight back. This is one of the techniques used by our brothers and this is exactly what i mean.

Just keep watching how this thread proceeds then you will see if I've run out of answers.

I am already watching and this is how it is proceeding, everything the brothers are putting forward, hardcore references straight from the Ahle Sunnah authentic books, you are just constantly denying and avoiding them, then you are bringing in and raising matters and issues, which are irrelavant to what is being discussed, just to derail the entire discussion and take the debate elsewhere, to divert attention and to save yourself from getting stuck and ending up at a dead end.

The only reason I'm no longer interested in talking to you is because you're very very unreasonable.

Very unreasonable??? How???? Is this the best you can do??? Is this the end of you??? What a cheap excuse, without any explanation. Why not let the audience/people be the judge of that??? I can accuse you but i'm better than that, much better and i'm sure you are as well, so get your act together.

I've got answers to all your questions but I don't want to talk to you anymore because you deliberately beat around the bush.

Again another cheap excuse and a silly accusation, with no base or explanation, what so ever. A desparate attempt to survive, i would say. A silly response/reply

Would be better, than nothing at all, is this what you have in mind???

Il give a small example.

When you revert to islam you still have to be obedient to your parents just as long as they don't tell you to do anything un inslamic as soon as they tell you to do something un ISLAMIC obedience to them is over. The same goes for Muslim parents eg; if your parents don't practice islam and tell you not to practice to then your obedience to them regarding islam is null but you still have to obey them in other matters.

You are always going on about the Quran, so why don't you prove this, direct and straight from the Quran for me, in black and white???

Give me a direct command, from the holy book, about obedience towards parents???

This doesn't mean for eg they can force you to marry because that is in ISLAMIC but in other matters you have to obey them in order for their to be law and order in the house.

But you said "one can disagree with the Ulul Amre over anything what so ever", so wouldn't the same theory apply to the parents??? First you claimed that the disagreement can be over anything, now you have limited it and believe that, the disagreement is conditional, what's going on??? Please elaborate!

The worst thing in a household is a disobedient child.

So basically a child, regardless of your age because to you're always a child to your parents, you have to abey them in all matters, right??? So if the child doesn't

Want to become a doctor by following his parents wishes and infact wants to become an engineer or the child is not interested in running the family business and infact wants to build a career and creat their own name, so they would be disobedient, according to you???

Ask any alim from sunni shia wahabbi they will confirm what I just said

 

Lol... If that's what helps you sleep at night.... Ok.

All discussions and debates have seriousness attached and tied to them but when you fall short, in any discussion or debate then, start being funny to gain some lost weight back. This is one of the techniques used by our brothers and this is exactly what i mean.

Just keep watching how this thread proceeds then you will see if I've run out of answers.

I am already watching and this is how it is proceeding, everything the brothers are putting forward, hardcore references straight from the Ahle Sunnah authentic books, you are just constantly denying and avoiding them, then you are bringing in and raising matters and issues, which are irrelavant to what is being discussed, just to derail the entire discussion and take the debate elsewhere, to divert attention and to save yourself from getting stuck and ending up at a dead end.

The only reason I'm no longer interested in talking to you is because you're very very unreasonable.

Very unreasonable??? How???? Is this the best you can do??? Is this the end of you??? What a cheap excuse, without any explanation. Why not let the audience/people be the judge of that??? I can accuse you but i'm better than that, much better and i'm sure you are as well, so get your act together.

I've got answers to all your questions but I don't want to talk to you anymore because you deliberately beat around the bush.

Again another cheap excuse and a silly accusation, with no base or explanation, what so ever. A desparate attempt to survive, i would say. A silly response/reply

Would be better, than nothing at all, is this what you have in mind???

Il give a small example.

When you revert to islam you still have to be obedient to your parents just as long as they don't tell you to do anything un inslamic as soon as they tell you to do something un ISLAMIC obedience to them is over. The same goes for Muslim parents eg; if your parents don't practice islam and tell you not to practice to then your obedience to them regarding islam is null but you still have to obey them in other matters.

You are always going on about the Quran, so why don't you prove this, direct and straight from the Quran for me, in black and white???

Give me a direct command, from the holy book, about obedience towards parents???

This doesn't mean for eg they can force you to marry because that is in ISLAMIC but in other matters you have to obey them in order for their to be law and order in the house.

But you said "one can disagree with the Ulul Amre over anything what so ever", so wouldn't the same theory apply to the parents??? First you claimed that the disagreement can be over anything, now you have limited it and believe that, the disagreement is conditional, what's going on??? Please elaborate!

The worst thing in a household is a disobedient child.

So basically a child, regardless of your age because to you're always a child to your parents, you have to abey them in all matters, right??? So if the child doesn't

Want to become a doctor by following his parents wishes and infact wants to become an engineer or the child is not interested in running the family business and infact wants to build a career and creat their own name, so they would be disobedient, according to you???

 

Ask any alim from sunni shia wahabbi they will confirm what I just said

 

Why should i ask any Aalim??? Why don't you give me proof straight and direct from the Quran??? I mean, this is what you've been on about all this time, haven't you???

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Why should i ask any Aalim??? Why don't you give me proof straight and direct from the Quran??? I mean, this is what you've been on about all this time, haven't you???

Okay okay.... Tell me. In islam do we have to be obedient to our parents even if they are kafir?? I mean like when they say don't go out late do we have to obey or do our own choice??

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Okay okay.... Tell me. In islam do we have to be obedient to our parents even if they are kafir?? I mean like when they say don't go out late do we have to obey or do our own choice??

 

Read my previous post fully and then give me a DIRECT COMMAND straight from the QURAN about OBEDIENCE towards PARENTS. This was your exact stance concerning Imaamath, wasn't it??? At least have the dignity and respect to stick to your own principals. You disregard all the questions and points then, you focus on the only one that, keeps you hanging on a thread, to survive in the discussion/debate.

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Read my previous post fully and then give me a DIRECT COMMAND straight from the QURAN about OBEDIENCE towards PARENTS. This was your exact stance concerning Imaamath, wasn't it??? At least have the dignity and respect to stick to your own principals. You disregard all the questions and points then, you focus on the only one that, keeps you hanging on a thread, to survive in the discussion/debate.

We are trying to figure our if the word obey means conditional or unconditional. So I'm asking you a simple question in islam or even in humanity do we have to obey our parents??

If yes then what about if your parents are kafir or non practicing Muslims and they say to you don't pray salah!!! Then doesn't this obedience become conditional??

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Brother just the truth

 

We are trying to figure our if the word obey means conditional or unconditional. So I'm asking you a simple question in islam or even in humanity do we have to obey our parents??

If yes then what about if your parents are kafir or non practicing Muslims and they say to you don't pray salah!!! Then doesn't this obedience become conditional??

 

And i have given you a simple answer and here it is again, "obedience" means "submission" and "to obey" means "to submit" and "submission" means "surrender and "to submit" means "to surrender" and this is the general meaning and definition. If there are any terms and conditions or principals or rules and regulations then, they suppose to be mentioned and they have to come straight and directly from, the one who has issued the command or the one/s you show obedience towards.

 

Now you said "in Islam", what is Islam??? The Quran and the Sunnah ofcourse! But we are going to stick to the Quran because anything that is put forward from the Sunnah, you start to raise suspicion and cast doubt, over the authenticity and accuracy of what has been put forward. So once again, here we go, in Islam, meaning in the Quran, Allah has given a straight and direct command, of obedience towards the Ulul Amre, right??? Now who has issued or given the command??? Allah, right??? So if there are or should be any terms and conditions, principals, rules and regulations concerning the obedience towards the Ulul Amre then, it is absolutely sensible and logical that, they should come straight and directly from who issued/gave the command, right??? So where are they??? Where is the follow up???

 

You said "in Islam", which again would be only the Quran, in your case, right??? So where does it say, straight and directly, in the Quran that, one should obey their parents??? Where is the command??? Once you prove this then, we shall move on to terms and conditions, principals, rules and regulations, regarding obedience towards parents.

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Brother just the truth

And i have given you a simple answer and here it is again, "obedience" means "submission" and "to obey" means "to submit" and "submission" means "surrender and "to submit" means "to surrender" and this is the general meaning and definition. If there are any terms and conditions or principals or rules and regulations then, they suppose to be mentioned and they have to come straight and directly from, the one who has issued the command or the one/s you show obedience towards.

Now you said "in Islam", what is Islam??? The Quran and the Sunnah ofcourse! But we are going to stick to the Quran because anything that is put forward from the Sunnah, you start to raise suspicion and cast doubt, over the authenticity and accuracy of what has been put forward. So once again, here we go, in Islam, meaning in the Quran, Allah has given a straight and direct command, of obedience towards the Ulul Amre, right??? Now who has issued or given the command??? Allah, right??? So if there are or should be any terms and conditions, principals, rules and regulations concerning the obedience towards the Ulul Amre then, it is absolutely sensible and logical that, they should come straight and directly from who issued/gave the command, right??? So where are they??? Where is the follow up???

You said "in Islam", which again would be only the Quran, in your case, right??? So where does it say, straight and directly, in the Quran that, one should obey their parents??? Where is the command??? Once you prove this then, we shall move on to terms and conditions, principals, rules and regulations, regarding obedience towards parents.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?id=139144&page=articles

Regarding ulil amr be patient I'm preparing an answer

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Brother just the truth, obedience is blind, meaning: no questions, no its and buts, no mentioning about your will, wish and desire, no showing of your emotions and feelings, disregard your happiness and sorrow, it does not matter if you are happy or sad, if it is simple or difficult, if you are comfortable or awkward, all this does not matter. This is obedience and it is always blind. This is for those who the command has been straightly and directly issued and that is, Allah, his MESSENGER (pbuh) and the ULUL AMRE, again for whom, direct command of obedience has been issued.

 

Show me any other line of authority for whom a direct command of obedience has been issued??? I'm not saying I'm Mr Right, like you, just correct me if I'm wrong.

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http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?id=139144&page=articles

Regarding ulil amr be patient I'm preparing an answer

 

No problem! You mentioned in one of your posts that, what is the status of Hazrath Fatimah (as)??? Was she infallible too??? If yes then, does this mean she was an Imaam as well??? If not then, why not??? What is the point of being infallible then, if you are not an Imaam or haven't been made an Imaam??? What is the point of infallibility??

 

With all due respect, what a silly question. Who said "every infallible has to be an Imaam"??? Every Imaam has to be or is infallible but every infallible does not have to be or isn't an Imaam, for example: (Malaikah) the angels. Hazrath Gabriel (jibra'eel) is infallible but not an Imaam.

 

Imaam in Arabic means, front. Wara in Arabic means, behind. Imaamy meaning, infront of me and wara'ee meaning, behind me. Tah'th in Arabic means, above and fauk in Arabic means, below. Tah'thy meaning above me and fauky meaning, below me. The word "Imaam" is used for: head of anything, leader, incharge etc, be it tribe, family, community, organisation, department, country, group, party, batch etc.

 

Hazrath Fatimah (as) was/is, without a shadow of a doubt, infallible because to be infallible, there is a condition. You have to be pure, to the state and level of purification that is and if you aren't pure, you can't be infallible. Not every infallible was an Imaam (Ulul Amre), but every Imaam (Ulul Amre) was infallible, why??? Because they were pure and nobody can challenge or cast a doubt, on their purity.

 

Hazrath Fatimah (as) was infallible and yes she was also made an Imaam. She is the Imaam of the women in paradise (Seyda tun nisa'il A'alameen).

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No problem! You mentioned in one of your posts that, what is the status of Hazrath Fatimah (as)??? Was she infallible too??? If yes then, does this mean she was an Imaam as well??? If not then, why not??? What is the point of being infallible then, if you are not an Imaam or haven't been made an Imaam??? What is the point of infallibility??

With all due respect, what a silly question. Who said "every infallible has to be an Imaam"??? Every Imaam has to be or is infallible but every infallible does not have to be or isn't an Imaam, for example: (Malaikah) the angels. Hazrath Gabriel (jibra'eel) is infallible but not an Imaam.

Imaam in Arabic means, front. Wara in Arabic means, behind. Imaamy meaning, infront of me and wara'ee meaning, behind me. Tah'th in Arabic means, above and fauk in Arabic means, below. Tah'thy meaning above me and fauky meaning, below me. The word "Imaam" is used for: head of anything, leader, incharge etc, be it tribe, family, community, organisation, department, country, group, party, batch etc.

Hazrath Fatimah (as) was/is, without a shadow of a doubt, infallible because to be infallible, there is a condition. You have to be pure, to the state and level of purification that is and if you aren't pure, you can't be infallible. Not every infallible was an Imaam (Ulul Amre), but every Imaam (Ulul Amre) was infallible, why??? Because they were pure and nobody can challenge or cast a doubt, on their purity.

Hazrath Fatimah (as) was infallible and yes she was also made an Imaam. She is the Imaam of the women in paradise (Seyda tun nisa'il A'alameen).

Ok AMEEN I've tried to be sensible with you but seems like you like to go into every itsy bitsy detail....

Very well.... My friend

Let me give you a taste of your own medicine.

YOU SAID

"Every Imaam has to be or is infallible"

MY ANSWER

so I take it imam khomeni was infallible

So is khamenei

And here have this too...

Quran, 9:12: “Fight the imams of kufr.”

Quran, 28:41: “And We made them imams who call towards the Fire.”

The reason you gave for bibi fatimah being infallible was:

Hazrath Fatimah was infallible and yes she was also made an Imaam. She is the Imaam of the women in paradise (Seyda tun nisa'il A'alameen).

MY ANSWER

why do we need an infallible in paradise??? Who will she be guiding in paradise??? Who will be the fallibles in paradise???

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Ok AMEEN I've tried to be sensible with you but seems like you like to go into every itsy bitsy detail....

Very well.... My friend

Let me give you a taste of your own medicine.

YOU SAID

"Every Imaam has to be or is infallible"

MY ANSWER

so I take it imam khomeni was infallible

So is khamenei

And here have this too...

Quran, 9:12: “Fight the imams of kufr.”

Quran, 28:41: “And We made them imams who call towards the Fire.”

The reason you gave for bibi fatimah being infallible was:

Hazrath Fatimah was infallible and yes she was also made an Imaam. She is the Imaam of the women in paradise (Seyda tun nisa'il A'alameen).

MY ANSWER

why do we need an infallible in paradise??? Who will she be guiding in paradise??? Who will be the fallibles in paradise???

your using the Word Imam in Wrong Terms.

Khomenei (qas) was not the Imam of the Islamic ummah, He was a leader of his state. The Word "imam" he was called by his Own nation of Supporters, so if we apply your logic, We can say the Imams of the Mosq Who lead prayer are also Infallible. Thus makes the Argument illogical. So The "word "Imam" is used for the Terms of those Who are Appointed By Allah in our case. And in other Cases the Imam as "Leader" of those Armies or Kuffar you might say. You must Acknowledge,  The Different Definitions the Word is used in, since in the Arabic Language, the Word "imam" has over ten Meanings. And Concerning Fatima (s) she is not the Imam of the Women In Paradise. She is the "Sayeda" and this has Different meanings to "Imam", she was neevr mentioned as "Imam" in Any Hadith.

The Angels of Allah Are Infallible, thus makes that you do not have to be an Imam to be Infallible.

(salam)

  

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your using the Word Imam in Wrong Terms.

Khomenei (qas) was not the Imam of the Islamic ummah, He was a leader of his state. The Word "imam" he was called by his Own nation of Supporters, so if we apply your logic, We can say the Imams of the Mosq Who lead prayer are also Infallible. Thus makes the Argument illogical. So The "word "Imam" is used for the Terms of those Who are Appointed By Allah in our case. And in other Cases the Imam as "Leader" of those Armies or Kuffar you might say. You must Acknowledge, The Different Definitions the Word is used in, since in the Arabic Language, the Word "imam" has over ten Meanings. And Concerning Fatima (s) she is not the Imam of the Women In Paradise. She is the "Sayeda" and this has Different meanings to "Imam", she was neevr mentioned as "Imam" in Any Hadith.

The Angels of Allah Are Infallible, thus makes that you do not have to be an Imam to be Infallible.

(salam)

NOPE.... Sorry but he said EVERY imam is infallible.

Brother I'm giving him a tase of his own medicine. Before I said we can differ in anything with ulil amr (what I meant was regarding differing in quran and sunnah) but he twisted my words and said I said anything.

So I'm playing his game.see how he likes it

So... My dear AMEEN is every imam infallible????

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Salaam brothers. First of all thanx, brother Islam history, for stepping in there. Now brother just the truth, why do you want to give me a taste of my own medicine??? Why do you always seem to get personal??? You were preparing a big answer, concerning all my questions and points, so what happened??? You always seem to disregard everything else and just focus on that one odd point, that makes you look good and where you can craftily try and catch someone out. For Gods sake, it's just a discussion man, not a contest for the last place in heavan.

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Salaam brothers. First of all thanx, brother Islam history, for stepping in there. Now brother just the truth, why do you want to give me a taste of my own medicine??? Why do you always seem to get personal??? You were preparing a big answer, concerning all my questions and points, so what happened??? You always seem to disregard everything else and just focus on that one odd point, that makes you look good and where you can craftily try and catch someone out. For Gods sake, it's just a discussion man, not a contest for the last place in heavan.

Brother AMEEN I don't take nothing personal I have you a good explanation regarding obeying parents but you deliberately don't accept.

Now would you like to start over??

I answered your questions the best I could and yea i am preparing that answer and no i don't take anything personal. You are my brother in islam and humanity

Assalamu alaykum.

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This was precisely what I explained in my previous post here. Sunni's taking everything literally and not metaphorically.

 

First of all, we (Shia) claim that there are 12 Imams (as). We are waiting for the last. We claim that the Prophet (pbuh) and ahlulbayt (as) are infallible. We never claimed that others are. Imam Al-Khomaini is not from the 12 Imams, where did we say he was infallible? Imam is a title. And by saying EVERY Imam is infallible we mean the 12 Imams, not a masjid Imam or a nation Imam.

 

If you do not stop taking everything literally then there is really no reason for your argument.

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