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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

Assalamu alaykum

Brother ISLAMIC history.

I cannot leave until I've replied to ulil amr as I have seen that some brothers such as :WAYFARER 786 are under the misunderstanding that ulil amr was settled in this thread.

This is an insult to AHLE SUNNAH and if I do not respond I will feel as though some people on this forum will think "I ran away" when in reality I want to leave this thread as my heart feels hard by constantly debating and not doing enough zikr.

So here we go:

1. differing in Religious issues that are Islamic, so The prophet has passed Away, So who do we refer to?

Sorry but this argument holds no ground. Doesn't matter if the prophet (pbuh) passed away or was still alive, because in the verse it says refer to Allah so is Allah like literally here????? If not then how do we refer to him????? It's simple we go back to quran.

Same with the prophet (pbuh) here is not actually here so how do we refer to him??? Same by going back to his hadith.

2. the answer is Simple, its Ahlulbayt . How? because the prophet said, I have left you two things in you ( his Ummah)

which if you hold on to them you will never go astray, The book Of Allah and his Ahlulbayt ,

MY ANSWER.

Sorry brother but this verse when it comes to "refer" is strictly restricted to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

If Allah (swt) wanted us to refer to ahle bayt (ulil amr) then he would have said so. There's no need for the big loop in your explanation brother.

Allah (swt) has said that the quran is easy to understand.

So if Allah (swt) wanted us to refer to anyone else other than himself (swt) and the prophet (pbuh) he would have said so.

3. So how do we refer to Ahlulbayt ? Read there lives, read their journeys, Read their Sayings and by that I mean the Twelve Imams Also in this case,

And Compare them to the Rulers (Kholafa) Who sit on the Throne.

MY ANSWER

Brother like I said above referring is strictly to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

"Read there lives, read their journeys, Read their Sayings and by that I mean the Twelve Imams Also in this case,"

Brother why can't we "read the prophets life" "read his journeys" Etc etc.

4. YOU SAID

Who is guiding us now?

Imam mahdi (a.s)

How?

he is Waiting for the Command of Allah.

and he to also, Prayers for us.

MY ANSWER

Well this is not exactly "guiding" is it???

I mean like hidden away and praying??

YOU SAID

But how can he be Alive all these years?

MY ANSWER

I don't really have an issue with the length of his life, but I do have one question how old will imam mahdi a.s be when he comes out??

YOU SAID

And Like Prophet Idris, Who Hid Away from his people for two years and came back.

MY ANSWER

While these blessed prophets a.s were "hidden away" they were not guiding there people unless they left behind some teachings.

YOU SAID

And as I proved Through Sunni Narrations,. He is from Ahlulbayt (s).

MY ANSWER

...and like I've answered you, AHLE BAYT is not restricted to 12 imams.

Brother until you don't research deeply what AHLE BAYT means in Arabic we will be here forever.

You cannot prove that other than your first three imams who is and who isn't AHLE BAYT.

Ismaili bohari zaydi nizarri etc et. All these sects claim that their imams are from AHLE BAYT and rightfully so. AHLE BAYT means a mans family and nowhere in the Arabic world will you find anyone restricting his AHLE BAYT to only one of his sons and leaving the others out.

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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Salaam brother just the truth. Welcome back! You shouldn't take things personally. It's not an insult to the Ahle Suunah and nobody will think you ran away. Accepting something, that is sensible and logical, based on reality and facts, comes with a proper explanation and good reasoning and also fits in well, doesn't mean you have lost or given in. To be continued.

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Continued. The first stage of a discussion is to see if something is sensible and logical. Does it make sense and is it according to logic??? Then comes the explanation and reasoning. Can you give a suitable explanation for it and is there a good reason behind it??? To be continued.

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Salaam brother just the truth. Welcome back! You shouldn't take things personally. It's not an insult to the Ahle Suunah and nobody will think you ran away. Accepting something, that is sensible and logical, based on reality and facts, comes with a proper explanation and good reasoning and also fits in well, doesn't mean you have lost or given in. To be continued.

Jazakallah for your reply may god bless you.

Brother I left this forum two to three days ago and said I wouldn't return but I cannot sit back while other brothers on this forum say to my brother ABDUL HASANI HUSSEINI that the matter was solved when it wasn't.

The only reason I left was because my heart felt as though it was going hard because I have a habit of constant zikr and I was depriving myself of this zikr by being on this forum.

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Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has said that the quran is easy to understand.

So if Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wanted us to refer to anyone else other than himself ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and the prophet (pbuh) he would have said so.

 

3:7

 

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَاب 

 

Salam, 

 

He did say so....

 

And here is the wrong translation of this ayat from Islamicity.com, 

 

He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. [5] Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ [6] which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, [7] and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. [8] Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight. 

 

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

 

 

The correct translation is 

 

...and noone knows its original meaning ( ta'wilihe ) except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge (Al rasikhuna fil ilm)...They say....We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight. 

 

Also, the definite article 'AL' is used when referring to Rasikhuna fil ilm, meaning this is a specific group of people which Allah(s.w.a) asks us to refer to.

 

And then you have the hadith, which is accepted by both Sunni and Shia from Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) where he says..

 

'Ana Medinatul Ilm wa Aliyyun babuha' 

 

I am the City of Knowledge(ilm) and Ali is it's Gate

 

In those days, cities were surrounded by walls and noone could get into the City, except thru the gate. So this means noone can access the knowledge of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) except thru Ali(a.s). 

 

 

 

There is another ayat in the Quran which asks us to refer to a group of people other than Allah(s.w.a) and the prophet. I can't think of the ayat right now, but I will post when I remember. 

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786

 

Brother Just the Truth - I believe it is settled not because you chose not to respond anymore but the arguments presented by brothers Ameen & TheIslamHistory were extremely poignant and convincing.  

 

May Allah (s.w.t.) guide us all, give us Marifat of prayer so it is lead by the 'heart' over the body and mind and bring more unity to the Ummah! 

 

I would also like to leave all of my brothers/sisters with a small prayer - "O Allah introduce Yourself to me For if you do not introduce Yourself to me, I will not recognize Your Prophet; O Allah make me recognize Your Prophet because if I do not recognize Your Prophet, I will not recognize Your Proof (Ulil Amr & Imam); For if you do not make me recognize Your Proof, I will deviate from my Deen" - Ameen

 

Was salaam

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3:7

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَاب

Salam,

He did say so....

And here is the wrong translation of this ayat from Islamicity.com,

He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. [5] Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ [6] which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, [7] and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. [8] Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

The correct translation is

...and noone knows its original meaning ( ta'wilihe ) except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge (Al rasikhuna fil ilm)...They say....We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

Also, the definite article 'AL' is used when referring to Rasikhuna fil ilm, meaning this is a specific group of people which Allah(s.w.a) asks us to refer to.

And then you have the hadith, which is accepted by both Sunni and Shia from Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) where he says..

'Ana Medinatul Ilm wa Aliyyun babuha'

I am the City of Knowledge(ilm) and Ali is it's Gate

In those days, cities were surrounded by walls and noone could get into the City, except thru the gate. So this means noone can access the knowledge of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) except thru Ali(a.s).

There is another ayat in the Quran which asks us to refer to a group of people other than Allah(s.w.a) and the prophet. I can't think of the ayat right now, but I will post when I remember.

Jazakallah brother for pointing out surah 3:7.

Firstly in order for you to meet the criteria of this verse you have to fulfill the first part.

He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ

If you can prove Imamate your foundation using the criteria above then you've cracked it otherwise.....

2. noone knows its original meaning ( ta'wilihe ) except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge (Al rasikhuna fil ilm)...They say....We believe in it

MY ANSWER

You have pointed this part of the verse out who h is itself unspecific. You said that here Allah (swt) is talking about a "group of people" and you're right. Who are these group of people brother???

Each sect in islam says it is their ulema who arethe firmly rooted in knowledge. They are not specifically mentioned, so who can tell the other sect that there deeply rooted in knowledge are not the right ones.

You pointed out this hadith:

I am the City of Knowledge(ilm) and Ali is it's Gate

Brother you should know this is not hujjah on me because this hadith is unauthentic. Here is why:

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/articles/hadith/city-of-knowledge.html

786

Brother Just the Truth - I believe it is settled not because you chose not to respond anymore but the arguments presented by brothers Ameen & TheIslamHistory were extremely poignant and convincing.

May Allah (s.w.t.) guide us all, give us Marifat of prayer so it is lead by the 'heart' over the body and mind and bring more unity to the Ummah!

I would also like to leave all of my brothers/sisters with a small prayer - "O Allah introduce Yourself to me For if you do not introduce Yourself to me, I will not recognize Your Prophet; O Allah make me recognize Your Prophet because if I do not recognize Your Prophet, I will not recognize Your Proof (Ulil Amr & Imam); For if you do not make me recognize Your Proof, I will deviate from my Deen" - Ameen

Was salaam

Brother jazakallah for your kind words. Brother I wasn't directing it only at you. The last thing I wanted people to think was that I left this forum because I couldn't answer

Assalamu alaykum

May Allah (swt) guide us all.

AMEEN

Summa AMEEN

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Salam, 

 

Then, according to you, who are 'those firmly rooted in knowledge' (Al Rasikhuna fil Ilm). If, as you say, every sect in Islam believes it to be a certain group, who do you believe it refers to ? 

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Statement:
I cannot leave until I've replied to ulil amr as I have seen that some brothers such as :WAYFARER 786 are under the misunderstanding that ulil amr was settled in this thread.

 

Perhaps Revise your Own Tafsir and come to a Comparison to Ours and Support such with ahadith and statements.

 

Statement:
This is an insult to AHLE SUNNAH and if I do not respond I will feel as though some people on this forum will think "I ran away" when in reality I want to leave this thread as my heart feels hard by constantly debating and not doing enough zikr.

 

How can this be an Insult as you have just claimed?, When one comes to an Understanding or proves a Certain Fact to be Correct in the Terms of Knowing between right and Wrong, So your Objection or as we say "reason" to continue on is rather not worth my Dear Friend.

Statement:
1. differing in Religious issues that are Islamic, so The prophet has passed Away, So who do we refer to?

 

Ahlulbayt (as) and if you believe in them, then you must also Believe in the Imam Mahdi (as), so how do we refer to him? 
Well he is in occultation according to the narrations, sayings of the prophet Muhamamd (s). How do We refer to him?
Well currently we cannot and that is Why We Ask the Ulma on the Islamic Law issue. But In the overall the verse points 
To the Imams who are appointed by Allah and the start was Ghadeer Khum.

 

statement: 
Sorry but this argument holds no ground. Doesn't matter if the prophet (s) passed away or was still alive, because in the verse it says refer to Allah so is Allah like literally here????? If not then how do we refer to him????? It's simple we go back to quran.

 

And to interpret the Quran, you need the narrations From the prophet (pbuh) and Ahlulbayt (as), but even with such this can only helps Refer to the book of Allah, but Not refer to the prophet and Ahlulbayt (as) themselves. 

Statement:
Same with the prophet (s) here is not actually here so how do we refer to him??? Same by going back to his hadith
.

 

We can gain little even from Hadith. Again I will say this one more time. If your going to base your Whole Islamic knowledge on Hadiths from the prophet (s) you are going to fall a part in yout Religion, because there are Many Hadiths Such as in Bukhari and Muslim that are sahih Hadiths according to them, and yet they go against the verses of the Quran, Which therefore takes you away from the Quran as it causes you to Misunderstand the verses and leads you to Confusion in your own Religion.   

 

 

Statement:
Sorry brother but this verse when it comes to "refer" is strictly restricted to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his messenger (s) If Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wanted us to refer to ahle bayt (ulil amr) then he would have said so. There's no need for the big loop in your explanation brother. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has said that the quran is easy to understand.  So if Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wanted us to refer to anyone else other than himself ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and the prophet (s) he would have said so.

 

I find it Quite Surprising that people Seem to keep Denying Ahlulbayt (as) in every Topic or Subject for the sake of a belief Which they hold very Dearly. you must be Denying no doubt, But the Hadith of thaqlian Clearly states the prophet has said in many times "Khalifas" & "Thaqlian" more than thrice in the narrations Which I have proved to you. I will ask you again if so, how can we refer to the prophet in an Absolute terms? You Will find Sadly in Ahlul-Sunnah They barely take Ahadith from Ahlulbayt but rather prefer the Sahabas which even in Bukhari have Fabricated Hadiths. So therefore if the prophet (s) said My Ahlulbayt and the Book of Allah and they Will not Separate until they meet at the Fountain of Kuwthar, that means they are Together with each other. So Why is it that the Ahlul-Sunnah do not use Ahadith from Ahlulbayt (a.s)? yet again your Logic here is an opinion and not a fact. Please give me one Hadith where the prophet said, " I leave in you two things, the book of Allah and I the prophet"???? you Will no doubt find nothing. Can you no see? that the prophet is Leaving for us two things which we must hold on in his time and after his death?  
 

 

Statement:

Brother like I said above referring is strictly to Allah and his messenger (s). "Read there lives, read their journeys, Read their Sayings and by that I mean the Twelve Imams Also in this case," Brother why can't we "read the prophets life" "read his journeys" Etc etc.
 

We have and We Did, But Why is it, that in Bukhair and Muslim there are Ahadith that Disrespect the prophet and the Quran ( if you like I can mention a Whole Bunch.) Why is it we take ahadith from the Followers of Imam Ali (as) and you take from the followers of Abu Bakr? therefore our reasoning of the life of the prophet (s) is somewhat Different in Many Crucial factors. In the Quran Us followers of Ahlulbayt we use Ahadith both from the Ahlulbayt and the prophet (s) that are Authentic. And I can tell you right now that All the Khalifas (rulers) from Abu Bakr to the last come no where near to the twelve Imams, and I dare you to Read both sides and see Who is richer in Religion and more knowledgeable in his time.   

4. YOU SAID


Statement:
Well this is not exactly "guiding" is it??? I mean like hidden away and praying??

 

Please Respect your own Imam. He is the Imam of your time and your saying his Hidding Away? 
What kind of Language do you Speak? Have I not made a Whole post on this issue and yet you never Replied?
Please Refer back:

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016357-believing-in-the-mahdi-af-is-obligatory/



Statement:
I don't really have an issue with the length of his life, but I do have one question how old will imam mahdi a.s be when he comes out??

 

This issue I made clear here, and I asked for your comment on it, but I receive none:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016357-believing-in-the-mahdi-af-is-obligatory/

Statement:
While these blessed prophets a.s were "hidden away" they were not guiding there people unless they left behind some teachings.

 

And that's Exactly my point?, And the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Did not leave behind a Guide? did he not Leave Behind Imam Ali (as) as the guide?


Statement:
...and like I've answered you, AHLE BAYT is not restricted to 12 imams.


and Like I proved earlier on "Appointing a Successor" With Sunni Narration, and your Refutations were not base on Evidence,
Therefore you Simply Deny. If your So Consistent Please Answer Post 117# On this Post as I have Explained Earlier on.

    
Statement
Brother until you don't research deeply what AHLE BAYT means in Arabic we will be here forever
.

 

That is because you deny and Do not prove. And In matter in Fact I have, But you seem to have not Provided any Factual Evidence to Support your
position on your claim.

 

 

Statement:
You cannot prove that other than your first three imams who is and who isn't AHLE BAYT.

 

Proven on page 07-13 "Appointing a Successor and Pending your Responses to the narrations.

Statement:
Ismaili bohari zaydi nizarri etc et. All these sects claim that their imams are from AHLE BAYT and rightfully so. AHLE BAYT means a mans family and nowhere in the Arabic world will you find anyone restricting his AHLE BAYT to only one of his sons and leaving the others out. 

 

You make no sense in your logic here. And what have we got to do with them? that is their belief not ours. We Follow the sayings of the prophet and Ahlulbayt (as) and the Quran.

(salam) 

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(salam)

I have given a Clear Explanation here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016920-who-are-the-blind/page-3


(salam)



 

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Salaam brotherjust the truth. Lets examine your understanding of the Ulul Amre verse. According to you, obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), is unconditional and without any circumstances. This would be blind obedience. Where as obedience towards Ulul Amre is conditional and has circimstances. Brother you haven't mentioned the conditions or the circumstances. What type of conditions and what are the circumstances??? What is the criteria and procedure of obedience, towards the Ulul Amre??? Allah must have said or mentioned something. Brother obedience is unconditional and has no circumstances, to begin with. Otherwise it is not obedience at all. Obedience means "to submit" and submit is from submission meaning "surrender". If there are any conditions or circumstances then, they should be mentioned and listed. You gave the example of obedience towards parents, to back your arguement but the verse you mentioned, only tells and commands you, about goodness and kindness towards parents. It does't tell and command you to show obedience, towards your parents but infact tells and commands you, not to show obedience towards your parents and gives you the reason and condition. If obedience, towards the Ulul Amre, was conditional then, the condition and reasons would have clearly been mentioned. Obedience is, to give up your thought, opinion and point of view, to disregard your emotions and feelings, to quench your will, wish and desire and to cancel your own intentions and give yourself up completely and absolutely to the other. To be continued.

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Continued. You have blind obedience and you have honest opinion. One is oppostie to the other. I asked you (brother just the truth) why Allah started off with obedience towards himself and his Messenger (pbuh) and you said because the Prophet (pbuh) is no longer with us, basically this command is directed to us and those individuals, who existed by coming to life, after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh). This explanation that you have given me, of why Allah has issued the new command of obedience towards Ulul Amre, by starting off from himself and his Messenger (pbuh), doesn't sound right. Infact it sounds rather silly, with all due respect towards you ofcourse. Because once you accept Islam, that means you have submitted yourself to Allah or if you are born and raised as a Muslim then, you are already in submission to Allah. You do not accept anyone worthy of worship but Allah and you believe Muhammad (pbuh) is his Prophet and spokesman then, there is no

Reason to mention obedience towards them because obedience is already in place and is mentioned in many other places, in Quran and Hadees. Brother one needs and will go by the explanation that is suitable and reasonable. To be continued.

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Continued. Allah has issued a totally brand new command and that is "obey the Ulul Amre" but Allah didn't say that. He didn't come straight out with it. Instead he started off by saying "obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey the Ulul Amre". Doesn't this alarm??? I mean the manner and the sequence, in which this command was issued??? To be continued.

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Continued. Something new has been said here and it hasn't been said straight forward but infact it has been said in a specific manner and sequence. If Allah hadn't said "obey Allah and obey the Messenger" would we, nowadays, not be automatically familiar with obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Ok the Messenger (pbuh) is not with us but do we not worship Allah alone and we wouldn't be automatically familiar with who to be obedient towards

??? We take Muhammad (pbuh) as Allah's Messenger but we wouldn't be familiar if, we had to obey the Messenger (pbuh) or not??? Why did Allah mention obedience towards him and his Messenger (pbuh), when it was and is an absolute and definate fact, which was, is and should be automatically understood, by the people during the Prophet's (pbuh) time and after his time. To be continued.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

1. YOU SAID

Ahlulbayt and if you believe in them, then you must also Believe in the Imam Mahdi , so how do we refer to him?

Well he is in occultation according to the narrations, sayings of the prophet Muhamamd (s). How do We refer to him?

Well currently we cannot and that is Why WE ASK THE ULMA ON THE ISLAMIC LAW ISSUE. But In the overall the verse points

To the Imams who are appointed by Allah and the start was Ghadeer Khum.

MY ANSWER

See my brother like you cannot refer to your imam we had no one to refer to after the prophet (pbuh) so abu bakr became our ulil amr so if we differed with him we could refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) as told to do so in surah 4:59.

Likewise you said you said you would "ask the ULMA in ISLAMIC issue" so it's pretty obvious that your ULMA are your ulil amr because they are those with "authority amongst you"...and if you differ with them you will refer them to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh) as told to do so in surah 4:59.

2. YOU SAID

And to interpret the Quran, you need the narrations From the prophet and Ahlulbayt , but even with such this can only helps Refer to the book of Allah, but Not refer to the prophet and Ahlulbayt

MY ANSWER

Dobr really understand what you're saying brother.

3. YOU SAID

We can gain little even from Hadith.

MY ANSWER

Exactly my point. So wouldn't it have been sooooo much easier if we had a PRECISE verse from the quran regarding your FOUNDATION Imamate.

YOU SAID

Again I will say this one more time. If your going to base your Whole Islamic knowledge on Hadiths from the prophet (s) you are going to fall a part in yout Religion, because there are Many Hadiths Such as in Bukhari and Muslim that are sahih Hadiths according to them, and yet they go against the verses of the Quran, Which therefore takes you away from the Quran as it causes you to Misunderstand the verses and leads you to Confusion in your own Religion.

MY ANSWER

Brother save the empty threats regarding Muslim and bukhari. If you want to discuss them we will do after the main topic at hand.

Brother also at the end of this reply you said:

"Confusion in your own Religion".

What religion ??? I thought we were from the same religion??

This is the last thing you said in your reply in statement 3.

4. YOU SAID

I find it Quite Surprising that people Seem to keep Denying Ahlulbayt in every Topic or Subject for the sake of a belief Which they hold very Dearly

MY ANSWER

We do not deny any AHLE BAYT. Sorry but you're confused brother.

YOU SAID

you must be Denying no doubt, But the Hadith of thaqlian Clearly states the prophet has said in many times "Khalifas" & "Thaqlian" more than thrice in the narrations Which I have proved to you.

MY ANSWER

Bro the hadith of thalaqayn does NOT mean leadership. Give me the hadiths you said before and I will personally check for there authencity a s then I will get back to you. Also brother as long as you cannot prove your Imamate using surah 3:7 then any hadith referring to Imamate is useless.

Don't forget it was you in your reply who said that hadiths are no good.

Bro the try this that the quran is the first source so if Imamate is not in the quran then how can you say it is the foundation when it fails the guidelines of surah 3:7.

YOU SAID

You Will find Sadly in Ahlul-Sunnah They barely take Ahadith from Ahlulbayt but rather prefer the Sahabas which even in Bukhari have Fabricated Hadiths.

MY ANSWER

Regardjng "fabricated hadiths"then this is your view so show some respect because they are sahih to us.

Secondly we have hadiths from AHLE BAYT, please go here:

http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/sunni-vs-shia-narrations-from-ahlul-bait-who-narrated-most/#comment-1873

5. YOU SAID

We have and We Did, But Why is it, that in Bukhair and Muslim there are Ahadith that Disrespect the prophet and the Quran ( if you like I can mention a Whole Bunch.)

MY ANSWER

Like I said brother SAVE THE EMPTY THREATS. If you want to talk about the hadiths we will discuss them after the main topic.

YOU SAID

In the Quran Us followers of Ahlulbayt we use Ahadith both from the Ahlulbayt and the prophet (s) that are Authentic.

MY ANSWER

My dear brother you talk as though you're the only shia who "claim" to follow the "AHLE BAYT". Do you know how many other sects claim the same???

How is an average person supposed to know who is the right imams?????

Can you prove to the ummah that your imams and not any other shia sect are following the right imams???

6. YOU SAID

Please Respect your own Imam. He is the Imam of your time and your saying his Hidding Away?

What kind of Language do you Speak? Have I not made a Whole post on this issue and yet you never Replied?

Please Refer back:

MY ANSWER

Sorry brother if you're offended but what exactly have I said wrong????

Isn't imam mahdi hiding??? What's so offensive about that???

....and for the record he is not my imam because the imam mahdi a.s of SUNNIS is not in hiding.

Also brother how can you compare your imams occultation to that of any prophets????

Prophets for example like ISA a.s when they went into hiding they left behind guidance either a book or some sort of guidance, whereas your twelfth imam left you nothing. So your imam cannot be "guiding" you since he never left you anything unlike ISA a.s left the injeel.

Other prophets a.s went into hiding AFTER they declared their prophethood and guided people but your imam mahdi a.s left you nothing so again like I said before. He is not a guide since he isn't guiding you.

7. YOU SAID

This issue I made clear here, and I asked for your comment on it, but I receive none:

Revise previous answer.

Also how old will your imam be when he comes out of hiding????

8. YOU SAID

And that's Exactly my point?, And the prophet Muhammad Did not leave behind a Guide? did he not Leave Behind Imam Ali as the guide?

MY ANSWER

No the prophet (pbuh) never appointed imam ali a.s he (pbuh) left the quran as guidance.

Surah 31:2

These are verses of the wise Book,

Surah 31:3

A GUIDANCE and a mercy for the doers of good

Surah 17:9

Indeed, this Qur'an GUIDES to that which is most suitable and gives good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a great reward.

Also we read in nahj ul balagah sermon 1.

Allah never allowed His creation to remain without a Prophet deputised by Him, or a book sent down from Him or a binding argument or a standing plea. These Messengers were such that they did not feel little because of smallness of their number or of largeness of the number of their falsifiers. Among them was either a predecessor who would name the one to follow or the follower who had been introduced by the predecessor.

MY ANSWER

Brother read the above and see that there was no prophet a.s to come after prophet (pbuh) so we were left with a book (quran)

We also read in sermon 1

The Holy Qur'an and Sunnah

But the Prophet left among you the same which other Prophets left among their peoples, because Prophets do not leave them untended (in dark) without a clear path and a standing ensign, namely the Book of your Creator clarifying its permission and prohibitions, its obligations and discretion, its repealing injunctions and the repealed ones, its permissible matters and compulsory ones, its particulars and the general ones, its lessons and illustrations, its long and the short ones, its clear and obscure ones, detailing its abbreviations and clarifying its obscurities.

MY ANSWER

So you can see from above that we were left with the same quran and sunnah.

9. YOU SAID

and Like I proved earlier on "Appointing a Successor" With Sunni Narration, and your Refutations were not base on Evidence,

Therefore you Simply Deny. If your So Consistent Please Answer Post 117# On this Post as I have Explained Earlier on.

MY ANSWER

Brother YOU are massively massively mistaken. Us SUNNIS call everybody starting from prophet (pbuh) up to every dingle descendant AHLE BAYT. Maybe this will help you understand us SUNNIS regarding AHLE BAYT:

http://www.rasulallah.info/id56.html

Brother ask any sunni alim you want. Us SUNNIS believe every du gle descendant of imam hasan and Hussein in from AHLE BAYT.

Let me explain a bit deeper.

For example QURAISH us the AHLE BAYT of somebody and you see that QURAISH even exist today all over the world. Likewise we believe all descendants of AHLE BAYT are AHLE BAYT but shia for some reason think the prophets (pbuh) bloodline was restricted to 12 descendants and then after that the bloodline finishes!!!

My question is why??? All sayids are descendants if the AHLE BAYT so they are all AHLE BAYT and our imam mahdi a.s will be from them many descendants.

10. YOU SAID

That is because you deny and Do not prove. And In matter in Fact I have, But you seem to have not Provided any Factual Evidence to Support your

position on your claim.

MY ANSWER

Refer to previous answer

11. YOU SAID

Proven on page 07-13 "Appointing a Successor and Pending your Responses to the narration

MY ANSWER

revise previous answer

12. YOU SAID

You make no sense in your logic here. And what have we got to do with them? that is their belief not ours. We Follow the sayings of the prophet and Ahlulbayt and the Quran.

MY ANSWER

You have got nothing to do with them but they all claim the same as you that they follow AHLE BAYT.

YOU SAID

We Follow the sayings of the prophet and Ahlulbayt and the Quran.

MY ANSWER

They also say we follow sayings of the prophet (pbuh) AHLE BAYT and quran.

...but the golden question is can you prove the concept of Imamate from quran which you all claim to be followers of following the guidelines of surah 3:7????????

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Continued. Brothers and sisters, the first part of the Ulul Amre verse, speaks about obedience towards the Ulul Amre. We have two things, right at the very begining here and everything else, part and bits of the verse follow later. To be continued.

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Continued. And these two things are obedience and ulul amre. What standard and level of obedience is required and who, how and what exactly are the ulul amre. Brothers and sisters, there is no need to look at ahle this or ahle that and there is no need for any school of thought because this is where one would start to put loyalty first, rather than reality. All you need to do folks is, just pick up the dictionary and look up the meaning and definition of obedience. You will find that obedience means to submit, to someone, to a direction, to a set of principals, rules or regulations, to a command or order etc and submit is from submission, meaning surrender. This is the general meaning and definition of obedience and if there are any extras (conditions and or circumstances) then, they clearly need to be mentioned. To be continued.

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Statement:

See my brother like you cannot refer to your imam we had no one to refer to after the prophet (s) so abu bakr became our ulil amr so if we differed with him we could refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (s) as told to do so in surah 4:59. Likewise you said you said you would "ask the ULMA in ISLAMIC issue" so it's pretty obvious that your ULMA are your ulil amr because they are those with "authority amongst you"...and if you differ with them you will refer them to Allah and his messenger (s) as told to do so in surah 4:59.
 
Do you not Understand? that Abu Bakr is not Uli Al Amr? We have went over this with many times of Information and I gave you Refutations for your claims. Please Refer back to "Appointing A Successor". And For the last time Ulma Cannot be Considered as Uli Al Amr, Because they Do not have Authority of us. The Person Who has Authority over us, at our time, is Imam Mahdi (A.F). And your nonsense on The Khalifa that was made by Pen and paper as I have Revealed to your Earlier in "Appointing a Successor" - Page 09-13, and The Uli Al Amr at the time of the prophet (as) and After the prophet is Imam Ali (s). Abu Bakr Who he and Umar Went against Fatima (s) and Ali (s), Cannot come to close to such a position.

Revise The previous post On Khilafa.

 
 





statement:
Dobr really understand what you're saying brother.
 
The Conclusion of what I said is that your need the Knowledge of What Ahlulbayt and the prophet (s) have said to Interpret the Quran.  


Statement:
Exactly my point. So wouldn't it have been sooooo much easier if we had a PRECISE verse from the quran regarding your FOUNDATION Imamate. 
 
Have We not mentioned many? or has being Denying been your answer for the past posts? 

Statements:
Brother save the empty threats regarding Muslim and bukhari. If you want to discuss them we will do after the main topic at hand.

As you Wish. I just hope you are Aware of the Content in Such books.
 
 
Statement:
What religion ??? I thought we were from the same religion?? This is the last thing you said in your reply in statement 3.
 
​your Belief, Which is Islam.
 


Statements:
We do not deny any AHLE BAYT. Sorry but you're confused brother.
 
Really? is that Why you take Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Muwaiyah and his Son Yazid as the Khilfa's?

Sure thing, that's What they All Say.
 
 

Statements:
Bro the hadith of thalaqayn does NOT mean leadership. Give me the hadiths you said before and I will personally check for there authencity a s then I will get back to you. Also brother as long as you cannot prove your Imamate using surah 3:7 then any hadith referring to Imamate is useless.
 
(1) Revise the Previous Thread: I have made a Reply There.
(2) Really?, because I proved to your in "Appointing a Successor" - Page 7 and 8 About this issue. 

Again your not giving any proof when your saying such a statement? Please Give a Proper Response.


 


Statements:
Bro the try this that the quran is the first source so if Imamate is not in the quran then how can you say it is the foundation when it fails the guidelines of surah 3:7.


yes it is and We gave gone through This I believe in Appointing a Successor if you like I can just Go Through it again here on this post. And as usual you Deny.


 

Statements:
Regardjng "fabricated hadiths"then this is your view so show some respect because they are sahih to us.
Secondly we have hadiths from AHLE BAYT, please go here:

Reply: According to you everything is Fabricated When Ahlulbayt is Involved and I have mentioned Many from your books on "Appointing a Successor" But you keep Replying With opinions and no Refutations .

If you compare the Hadiths from Fatima and Ali (s) compared to the Sahabah in Bukhair abd Mulims you Will find that its nothing compared to them. And No, Sorry, but most of your Ahadith are not From Ahlulbayt. Please Revise.

 
 

you now mention to me this site so I shall Examine it:
http://islamistruth....t/#comment-1873
 
 
and Surpisingly its another one of your Weak Resouces: So lets take a Closer look

The site Claims:


 

 

Sunni vs Shia narrations from ahlul bait, who narrated most?

This finding compare the narrations of ahlul sunnah from ahlul bait in their most authentic books that with the narrations in shia’s most authentic books.

Also narrations of ahlul bait vs narrations of the best sahaba Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (ra).

 

 

And whats the point of this? yes We have narrations From Certain People Who follow Either, So whats the Site trying to claim? and what is our Dear Friend Here Tryng To Aim at? Lets Read on.

 

 

 

 

 

Narrations of Ali Bin Abi Talib (ra)

Ahlul Sunnah depended on narrations from Ahlul Bait on a large scale, the narrations of Ali Bin Abi Talib from Messenger (SAW) in Bukhari with repetition(98) and with non-repetition (34). And his (ra) narrations in Sahih Muslim(38).

So that makes 72 narrations in Ahlul Sunnah’s most authentic books.

That makes the narrations of Ali from messenger (SAW) more than the narrations of Abu Bakr (ra) from Messenger (SAW).

And more than the narrations of Umar (ra) from messenger (saw).
And more than the narrations of Uthman (ra) from messenger (saw).

So will the shia now tell that Sunnis are enemies of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman?

 

 

Whats Ironic They mentioned This there is no Source Given?  And Through My Reading The narrations About Ahlulbayt is very little in the books of Ahlulsunnah, Which has only one or two Doors in Each books. Whats More Ironic I Wonder how they came to such a Conclusion? Where is the Evident of their Statement? If more Narrations Are Narrated by Ahlulbayt than Why is their Less narrations about Fatima Than Abu Bakr and Umar? Why is there Less narrations about Ali Than Abu bakr and Umar? They Here make No Proof of what they Provide. So whats your point? I Find it Funny On how you told me that "Don't Go on Such sites" When your Depending in these Easily Refuted claims Sources. Lets Continue on:
 

 

 

In shia’s most authentic Book:

As for as narrations of Ali from messenger in shia’s most authentic Book Al-Kafi is just 66not to forget out of that 2/3 are fabrication according shia standards.

What The hell is this? Where is the proof? They just Simply made a statement and your accepting this? Can you please Quote from posts Where I provided a statement from Ahlul-Sunnah Where I have provided no Sources? Thus this claim is Invaild. We can say more about Bukhari and Muslim, Just let me know when your Ready.

 

 

 

Narrations of Fatimah (ra)

Ahlul Sunnah’s most authentic Books:

As for narrations of Fatimah (ra) from Messenger (SAW) in sunni’s authentic books than there is one narration in Sahih Bukhari no.(4462)

Shia’s most authentic Book:

While there is ZERO narration in the whole kafi of fatimah (ra) from messenger (SAW). A book (kafi) that is divided into 9 volumes contains Zero narration!!!


Why Must our brother lie? I do not understand how someone depends on claims Without Proof?

(1) Please Revise Musnad Fatima in Al Kafi.
(2) We have many narrations about and from Fatima In Bihar al Anwar.

Please Revise:

 ـ اصول كافى: ج 1، ص 460، بيت الأحزان: ص 104، بحارالأنوار: ج 28، ص 250، ح 30. 

Us'ul Al kafi Volume 1, Page 460,

Bayt Al ahzan: page 104,
Bihar Al Anwar volume 28, page 250, Hadith 30.

 

We continue Reading on....

 

 

 

Narrations of Al-Hussein (ra)

Ahlul Sunnah’s most authentic Books:

There are total 4 ahadeeths in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim… Hussein from Ali from Messenger
Book Juma No. 1127, and Book Five obligatory No. 3091. The same in Sahih Muslim.

In Shia’s Authentic Book:

And in Kafi than there is just one narration, same for Hassan also.

 

Again My Dear viewers They have provided no Proof of their Argument. And yet the opposition seems to Depend on such.  

They have made another False Claim Can you please Prove this to us? whats Ironic We have Hundreds of Hadiths Concerning and From
Imam Hussain (s). And The Issue on their Agreement yet has not point at all? 

Please Revise your statement.

....I will not bother to Read the rest as No Evidence sited.
Really useless on your Side of the Argument. 

 

 

Did you forget? That Anyone who is Rafidi, His narrations are Rejected? as I proved Earlier

On the Previous posts? so whats your point of it any hows? 

 





Statement
My dear brother you talk as though you're the only shia who "claim" to follow the "AHLE BAYT". Do you know how many other sects claim the same???  How is an average person supposed to know who is the right imams?????  Can you prove to the ummah that your imams and not any other shia sect are following the right imams??? 

 

Can you prove to me your Following the Right Twelve Khalifas? Please and mention their names.
And What have we got to Do With other sects? Are you debating with them or me?

please Revise:

​(a) Appointing a Successor, "page 6-7" I presume.
(b) 12 Caliphs in Sunni Narrations.

Please give a Sect that Follows 12 imams please.


  



Statement:
Sorry brother if you're offended but what exactly have I said wrong???? Isn't imam mahdi hiding??? What's so offensive about that??? and for the record he is not my imam because the imam mahdi a.s of SUNNIS is not in hiding. Also brother how can you compare your imams occultation to that of any prophets???? 
Prophets for example like ISA a.s when they went into hiding they left behind guidance either a book or some sort of guidance, whereas your twelfth imam left you nothing. So your imam cannot be "guiding" you since he never left you anything unlike ISA a.s left the injeel. Other prophets a.s went into hiding AFTER they declared their prophethood and guided people but your imam mahdi a.s left you nothing so again like I said before. He is not a guide since he isn't guiding you.

 

(1) No he is not Hiding, There is a Difference between Occultation by the Power Of Allah and Hiding by your Own free Will.
(2) yes he is your Imam. Can you please tell me Who is the Imam of your time.
(3) Not Left us anything? Please Refer back to the post about Imam Mahdi (s) I Made for you and make Refutation there.
(4) What is your Saying about prophet Idris and Khudir (s).?

 




Statements:
Also how old will your imam be when he comes out of hiding????


Answer in the post of Imam Mahdi (s) as I mentioned Earlier.
No need to Repeat my self Twice. Please given a Refutation 

On that post Concerning this issue. 



Statements
No the prophet (s) never appointed imam ali a.s he (s) left the quran as guidance.


then Goodbye. Because you have not given Any Proof. and Did not Refute me in "Appointing a Successor" 
you Only answer is:

(1) no reply at All.

(2) Deny
(3) Give opinion and not refute.

Let the Viewers of the post be the judge for them selves on this issue.


you are a lair. Why? Ask you self about what I gave you on Appointing a Successor.

 

​Prove to me that Abu Bakr was appointed by the prophet (s)  


you then mentioned: 


تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ الْحَكِيمِ
These are verses of the wise Book,
 

هُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لِّلْمُحْسِنِينَ
As guidance and mercy for the doers of good


So According to your knowledge this verse proves that there is not Imam?
Okay Mashalla, Lets leave All Hadiths And Tarikh and just Deepened on The Quran.
No Doubt you must be joking, Because therefore We do not need prophets, We only 

need the Quran? the verse Does no Prove your point.  
 

 

You then mentioned:

Surah 17:9

 

إِنَّ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنَ يَهْدِي لِلَّتِي هِيَ أَقْوَمُ وَيُبَشِّرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ الَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَبِيرًا


Indeed, this Qur'an guides to that which is most suitable and gives good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a great reward.

 

 

you are Really Serious I guess...? can you please tell me How can we simple beings Know the Meaning of the Quran? Who Will We refer to? us? Ulma? only? therefore your saying We do not need anything even prophets? only the Quran? you make no sense in your logic.

 




Statements:

Brother read the above and see that there was no prophet a.s to come after prophet (s) so we were left with a book (quran)

 

Is there a Word to Describe Denial at more a larger scale? because your making no sense at all.
Allah has Left his Alhlulbayt and the book of Allah.

Brother you are lying on this post and to me.




We also read in sermon 1





Statements:
So you can see from above that we were left with the same quran and sunnah.


Excuse me? I think You mean the Ahlulbayt and the Quran? your Information Provides no proof.
Anyone on this Post Will now your are Simply Denying. I have proven hadith Al Thaqlain for you

On Appointing a Successor.



Statements:
http://www.rasulallah.info/id56.html

 

And Now We Will Examine the follwoing Site given....And no Proof what so ever?
​Thats your belief at any case. Please go back to Appointing A successor as I have 
​Proven to you the Identity of Ahlulbayt (s)

Please Given me a Hadith to Support you statement
That everyone from the line of prophet Muhammad (s) is from Ahlulbayt
and that they are all Purified?

 


 

 

Statements:
Brother ask any sunni alim you want. Us SUNNIS believe every du gle descendant of imam hasan and Hussein in from AHLE BAYT.

 

So Even if they are Killers and Sinners and they are from the line of the Ahlulbayt (s) they are Purified? 
According to the verse of Purification? What kind of Knowledge is this? Please give proof when your stating Such.
 



Statements:
My question is why??? All sayids are descendants if the AHLE BAYT so they are all AHLE BAYT and our imam mahdi a.s will be from them many descendants.


They are descents by blood but not of Ahlulbayt (s), because then according to you everyone who is from their line is Purified ( verse of Purification), and even if they commit sin, they are Still purified? brother Stop making Non sense and start Giving some proof.  

 

Please give me a Hadith from our books that Imam Mahdi (s) Will be born and is not in Occultation. 
Please and it must be Authentic.







(salam)

 

 

 


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Continued. Brothers and sisters, we all need to ask ourself this question, would Allah select anyone, i mean anyone at random and put them right alongside himself and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Would Allah chose anyone and put them in such a sequence??? Would Allah issue a command of obedience, towards anyone at all??? Regardless of how they have been selected and elected??? To be continued.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

YOU SAID

Do you not Understand? that Abu Bakr is not Uli Al Amr?

MY ANSWER

Yes he is. This is the opinion of all AHLE sunnah feel free to go and ask any alim from AHLE sunnah

I've been through this verse step by step in previous posts I don't mind repeating if you want me to.

It is you who starts trying to add ulil amr as to being referred to when in that verse it clearly says refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh)

Also you said that we cannot refer to prophet (p uh) because he isn't here when in nahj ul balagah ali a.s has said otherwise:

Nahj ul balagah letter 53

When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide. The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the CLEARand EXPLICIT ORDERS given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of HIS ORDERS about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.

This is exactly what I've been saying but you and AMEEN have been adamantly saying that you cannot refer to prophet (pbuh) because he is not here whereas ali a.s says different.

YOU SAID

And For the last time Ulma Cannot be Considered as Uli Al Amr, Because they Do not have Authority of us.

MY ANSWER

It was you who said in your previous reply that you cannot access your twelfth imam and the scholars are the ones to turn to for ISLAMIC knowledge !!! Well if this is not authority for the scholars then what is it??

YOU SAID

And your nonsense on The Khalifa that was made by Pen and paper as I have Revealed to your Earlier in "Appointing a Successor"

MY ANSWER

Excuse me..... But my none sense??

Il tell you what's none sense. None sense is making something usul ad din without being able to prove it using the guidelines of surah 3:7. That's none sense.

Another thing that is nonesense is calling somebody a Muslim who rejects an usul ad din.(SUNNIS reject Imamate).

YOU SAID

The Conclusion of what I said is that your need the Knowledge of What Ahlulbayt and the prophet (s) have said to Interpret the Quran.

MY ANSWER

Well that, Brings us back to who exactly is AHLE BAYT and why have shia restricted it to twelve only. When I told you a mans bloodline/family means all his descendants and any one can confirm this for you.

Let me give you an example.

QURAISH was started by two people who then had kids who in turn had kids and etc etc. now even today we can find the descendants of QURAISH all over the world.

Likewise us SUNNIS don't restrict any descendants of AHLE BAYT we call them ALL descendants of AHLE BAYT.

Anybody from the bloodline of imam hasan and Hussain are AHLE BAYT which makes much more sense.

YOU SAID

Have We not mentioned many? or has being Denying been your answer for the past posts?

MY ANSWER

You have mentioned many but they are all unspecific and come nowhere near the guidelines of being precise.

So it is you who is denying and not me.

YOU SAID

As you Wish. I just hope you are Aware of the Content in Such books.

MY ANSWER

I'm fully aware of what's in our books and I have studied them.

YOU SAID

Really? is that Why you take Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Muwaiyah and his Son Yazid as the Khilfa's?

Sure thing, that's What they All Say.

MY ANSWER

Since when do we regard yazid the laanti as our caliph?? We hate him so I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you're confusing me with the ahle hadith.

Hazrath abdullah bin Zubair r.a and other SUNNIS fought against him because we hate him.

YOU SAID

(1) Revise the Previous Thread: I have made a Reply There.

(2) Really?, because I proved to your in "Appointing a Successor" - Page 7 and 8 About this issue.

Again your not giving any proof when your saying such a statement? Please Give a Proper Response.

MY ANSWER

1. What reply??? I asked you one simple question which you totally ignored.

I asked:

If ahle BAYT hadith is talking about IMAMATE then is bibi FATIMA an infalliable imam??

YOU SAID

yes it is and We gave gone through This I believe in Appointing a Successor if you like I can just Go Through it again here on this post. And as usual you Deny.

MY ANSWER

Firstly I do not deny anything.

Secondly, if there was a precise verse then the ummah would never have split.

YOU SAID

Reply: According to you everything is Fabricated When Ahlulbayt is Involved and I have mentioned Many from your books on "Appointing a Successor" But you keep Replying With opinions and no Refutations .

MY ANSWER

No I don't think everything from AHLE BAYT is fabricated. Why are you lying??

I will do my research regarding the hadiths you pointed out please list them.

In the mean time speed up your thread regarding prophets a.s and minor mistakes.

That site was running through hadiths from AHLE BAYT so your claims that we think EVERYTHING from AHLE BAYT is fabricated is useless and baseless. So you can keep your useless baseless arguments to yourself.

YOU SAID

And whats the point of this? yes We have narrations From Certain People Who follow Either, So whats the Site trying to claim? and what is our Dear Friend Here Tryng To Aim at? Lets Read on.

MY ANSWER

The site is trying to tell you that we have narrations from AHLE BAYT from our most authentic books.

YOU SAID

(1) Please Revise Musnad Fatima in Al Kafi.

(2) We have many narrations about and from Fatima In Bihar al Anwar.

MY ANSWER

If you had bothered reading the beginning of what was written on that site it said "the most authentic books". He never said all books but he specifically was talking about the most authentic books for us both.

YOU SAID

Can you prove to me your Following the Right Twelve Khalifas? Please and mention their names.

And What have we got to Do With other sects? Are you debating with them or me?

MY ANSWER

Why should I??? It's your job to prove your usul ad din from quran, which was the very reason for the split.

We have hadiths where prophet (pbuh) said follow the caliphs then we were told caliphate will last 30 years and then will become kingship.

So common sense tells us that if we add up all the years that the 5 caliphs ruled it adds upto 30 years.

After that all we know is that imam mahdi a.s will come.

It's usul ad din for you yet you can't prove it from quran.

YOU SAID

(1) No he is not Hiding, There is a Difference between Occultation by the Power Of Allah and Hiding by your Own free Will.

MY ANSWER

What's the difference??? He is still hidden isn't he so he is hiding.

YOU SAID

(2) yes he is your Imam. Can you please tell me Who is the Imam of your time.

MY ANSWER

No he is not. Why are you lying?? I guess you're referring to surah 13:7.

Well I've told you the words used are kowmin HADI. It doesn't say "there is". The words "there is" are in brackets.

Some mufassireen have added these words in BRACKETS because it doesn't actually say "there is".

... Buh anyways lets go with your argument that there is a guide for every people. Then isn't it fair to say that every qo'om had a guide either a prophet a.s or a book of guidance.

The prophets a.s were slaughtered or ignored and the books were corrupted by the people. That is no fault on Allah (swt) side and they will have no argument on the day of judgement.

Now this brings us back to the prophet (pbuh). We are the qo'om of the prophet ( pbuh)

Qo'om means nation and nation means ummah. So we are the ummah of the prophet ( pbuh) or better still the qo'om of the prophet (pbuh).

Now it brings us to what it says in the verse EVERY NATION THERE IS A GUIDE.

So the prophet is the guide of this ummah/nation/qo'om. If somebody asked you who's ummah/nation/qo'om are you from what would you reply?? Imam mahdi or prophet ( pbuh)??

We believe the prophet (pbuh) is the guide of every nation/qo'om right now through his teachings.

YOU SAID

(3) Not Left us anything? Please Refer back to the post about Imam Mahdi (s) I Made for you and make Refutation there.

MY ANSWER

What exactly did imam mahdi a.s leave you as guidance??

YOU SAID

(4) What is your Saying about prophet Idris and Khudir (s).?

MY ANSWER

They came declared their leadership tried to guide. Whereas imam mahdi a.s was under "taqqiyah" and never declared himself as being appointed. So how were people supposed to know he was appointed. I believe this is under discussion on another thread from brother ugly jinn.

YOU SAID

then Goodbye. Because you have not given Any Proof. and Did not Refute me in "Appointing a Successor"

MY ANSWER.

Bring them hadith here with all the references and I will research them one by one while you prepare the thread you promised.

YOU SAID

you are a lair. Why? Ask you self about what I gave you on Appointing a Successor.

MY ANSWER

Why am I a liar?? Bring the hadith il research them and get back to you.

It is you who is the blatant liar my friend.

I have given you quranic evidence regarding prophets a.s and minor mistakes yet you go against this!!!!

So YOU have been lied to and YOU continue this legacy of lying by bringing your lies here.

YOU SAID

As guidance and mercy for the doers of good

So According to your knowledge this verse proves that there is not Imam?

Okay Mashalla, Lets leave All Hadiths And Tarikh and just Deepened on The Quran.

No Doubt you must be joking, Because therefore We do not need prophets, We only

need the Quran? the verse Does no Prove your point.

MY ANSWER

Tell me one thing, what is your source of actual 100 percent guidance ?

If somebody wanted to convert to islam would you give them quran which is 100 percent infallible or usul al kafi which is not 100 per cent authentic ??

Who or what is actually Guiding you now?? Of course it's the quran the rope from the heavens to the earth.

YOU SAID

Is there a Word to Describe Denial at more a larger scale? because your making no sense at all.

Allah has Left his Alhlulbayt and the book of Allah.

MY ANSWER

Exactly what I've been banging on about for the past month. Your definition of AHLE BAYT makes no sense. Here watch this video and watch this shia crumble when the sheikh talks about AHLE BAYT.

....and for god sake ignore the comments of the fool who has uploaded the video I do not accept his insults.

My interest is only the debate between the two sheikhs.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AP1ELOT3Drc

The sheikh touches on who we SUNNIS believe Belong to AHLE BAYT. Also touches on infallibility.

YOU SAID

Please Given me a Hadith to Support you statement

That everyone from the line of prophet Muhammad (s) is from Ahlulbayt

and that they are all Purified?

MY ANSWER

Watch the above video. AHLE BAYT means a mans descendants bad or good makes no difference. Ask any Arab.

Just like we are the descendants of Adam a.s all of us. We are all the sons of Adam a.s bad or good the same applies to AHLE BAYT. Just because they are not good does not mean they are not the descendants of hasan a.s and Hussein a.s

YOU SAID

That everyone from the line of prophet Muhammad (s) is from Ahlulbayt

and that they are all PURIFIED?

MY ANSWER

PURIFIED?? Where on earth does it say they are "purified?? It says Allah (swt) "intends" to "purify" which brings us back to why somebody who is apparently born "infallible" needs purifying?? Why did Allah (swt) say he (swt) "intends" to "purify" them if they were born purified???

Why did Allah (swt) not say he intends on keeping them "purified" if they were born sinless???

Anyway here is a hadith for you to ponder over regarding infallibility:

http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2012/10/10/infallible-imam-rejects-the-ijtihad-of-other-infallible-imam-and-orders-him-to-leave-it/

YOU SAID

So Even if they are Killers and Sinners and they are from the line of the Ahlulbayt (s) they are Purified?

According to the verse of Purification? What kind of Knowledge is this? Please give proof when your stating Such.

MY ANSWER

Revise previous answer.

YOU SAID

They are descents by blood but not of Ahlulbayt (s)

MY ANSWER

You nearly knocked me off my chair with this one..... What's the difference?? AHLE BAYT means descendants. I repeat for the 100 th time AHLE BAYT is not an ISLAMIC phrase it is used by Arabs of all religions.

YOU SAID

Please give me a Hadith from our books that Imam Mahdi (s) Will be born and is not in Occultation.

Please and it must be Authentic.

MY ANSWER

Why??? If you want to believe occultation then go ahead like I care. No skin of my nose.

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Statement:

Yes he is. This is the opinion of all AHLE sunnah feel free to go and ask any alim from AHLE sunnah.

And Till Today You have given us no Proof. I have provided you on the "Who are the Blind" With Proof that
The Uli Al amr is AHlulbayt (s), Can you please give me a Hadith where the prophet (s) says that Abu Bakr is Uli Al Mar?
Can you please give me a Hadith Where the prophet (s) ordered Abu Bbakr and Ummar to go to Saqifa and choose a Khalifa?
Can you please give me a Hadith Which the prophet (s) says that Abu Bakr is The one We Should Follow?
Can you please state a Verse that came down on Abu Bbakr, and the prophet (s) said obey Abu bakr?

as I have given you the verse Where Imam Ali (s) did Ruku and gave his ring, and Allah Says Obey him.
 

 

Statement:
I've been through this verse step by step in previous posts I don't mind repeating if you want me to.


Like the one Where you gave no Proper Answer with any proof? Sure Go a Head and I will Repost the same
Questions Concerning it, Which You Failed to Answer.



Statement:
Also you said that we cannot refer to prophet (p uh) because he isn't here when in nahj ul balagah ali a.s has said otherwise:

Nahj ul balagah letter 53

, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide. The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the CLEARand EXPLICIT ORDERS given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of HIS ORDERS about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.

This is exactly what I've been saying but you and AMEEN have been adamantly saying that you cannot refer to prophet (s)  because he is not here whereas ali a.s says different.

 

 

 

Whats ver Surpising is that you did not state the Whole Lettter: Here is the Full Letter ( please Stop Quoting things Out of Context ) In additon I could not Fine the Paragraph Which You have stated
First and Formost:

(1) Imam Ali (s) Told Him To Refer back to The Quran and the Orders of the prohet (s).
(2) I told you How Can We Refer To the prophet Entirely as a person, Since in the World today We Still have issues.
(3) after the Death of the prophet he left two Khalifas: A) Ahlulbayt B.) Quran. Explain to me How we must obey both.
(4) if Imam Ali (s)  appointed Malik Al Ashtar as the governer of Eygpt. Why did he not do Shura? Why did he Appoint him?
(5) again no sense in what you stated. Merely Basless.
(6) if he is saying Obey the prophet, then that means Obey Ali (s) as Proven from Mustadrak Al Hakim ( your Book) in Appointing a Successor (page 8-12) I presume.
(7) Why did Malik al Ashtar Take Orders from Imam Ali (s)? I thought Abu Bakr is the Khalifa?



 

 

 

Statement:
It was you who said in your previous reply that you cannot access your twelfth imam and the scholars are the ones to turn to for ISLAMIC knowledge !!! Well if this is not authority for the scholars then what is it??

 

Ulmar are Refer Too For Islamic Law Issues. And Do not have Entire Authoirty over All beings and Nations.
The Imams Do. There is a Difference. Between Asking Someone For and Issue, and Refering back to Who He has Authroity over you.

 

 

Statement:
Excuse me..... But my none sense??
Il tell you what's none sense. None sense is making something usul ad din without being able to prove it using the guidelines of surah 3:7. That's none sense.


And Who Said Its based on only this verse? Can you please Provide Proof For that statement.
And yes In addtion We have proved it Earlier. But I revieved no Proper Reply.

 

 

Statement:
Well that, Brings us back to who exactly is AHLE BAYT and why have shia restricted it to twelve only. When I told you a mans bloodline/family means all his descendants and any one can confirm this for you.

 

 

 

Again I will Repat My self, This is illogical.

(1) Your saying Anyone Who is from the line of Fatima and Commits Sins is Purified (verese of Purifications)
(2) We must Follow Anyone Who is From the Line of Fatima. (hadith Al Thaqlain), But What if they Disagree on something.

 

(3) THerefore everyone from the Line of Fatima is a Khalifa? ( since the prophet said I left Two Khalifas?) nosense.
(4) In the Time of the prophet There where people from the same blood as the prophet yet they went against him, so
how can they be Considered as Ahlulbayt>

(5) you are Simply Denying.


 

 



Statement:
I'm fully aware of what's in our books and I have studied them.


Is that why When you came to My Hadiths from your books you Rejected them?
Am I Talking to a Scholar? Wow. Great.

 

Statement:

Since when do we regard yazid the laanti as our caliph?? We hate him so I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you're confusing me with the ahle hadith. Hazrath abdullah bin Zubair r.a and other SUNNIS fought against him because we hate him.

Muwaiiah Is Considered Caliph and So is Yazid, and According to the Sunnah they are Chaliphs.
(1) They Faught Ahlulabyt (s)
(2) They are Chosen by the Previous Caliphs.

 

 

Statement:
If ahle BAYT hadith is talking about IMAMATE then is bibi FATIMA an infalliable imam??

 

(1) Fatima'at al Zahra (as) is Infailable.
(2) The Imams Are InFailable.
(3) no she is not an Imam, she is of the Ahlulbayt (s).

 

 

Statement:
if there was a precise verse then the ummah would never have split.

 

There are Precise verses, But Who Do we take our Knowldge from?
People Who Love Ahlulbayt? or people Who Fought against and hate Ahlulbayt (s)?

 

Statements:

I will do my research regarding the hadiths you pointed out please list them.

Refer to Page 6-12 Appoiting a Successor and Analyzse the given and Refute them Over there.

 

Statements:
That site was running through hadiths from AHLE BAYT so your claims that we think EVERYTHING from AHLE BAYT is fabricated is useless and baseless. So you can keep your useless baseless arguments to yourself.


(1) you mentioned Sites Which I have taken into Analogy and found most of it was Wrong as I proved Earlier.
(2) The Sites you gave Call us Unbelievers. ( thank you so much)
(3) you gave me a link to a Video Made by An Extremist Who Call us "Majos" ( again you Disrespect me)

and can you please give me a site where it has the three Charaterstics Above, Where I mentioend it to you.





Statements:
If you had bothered reading the beginning of what was written on that site it said "the most authentic books". He never said all books but he specifically was talking about the most authentic books for us both.



(1) We want Clear proof, and not Facts bases on opinions.
(2) proved Wrong as Mentioned:

"(1) Please Revise Musnad Fatima in Al Kafi.
(2) We have many narrations about and from Fatima In Bihar al Anwar."





Statement:
Why should I??? It's your job to prove your usul ad din from quran, which was the very reason for the split. We have hadiths where prophet (s) said follow the caliphs then we were told caliphate will last 30 years and then will become kingship.
So common sense tells us that if we add up all the years that the 5 caliphs ruled it adds upto 30 years. After that all we know is that imam mahdi a.s will come It's usul ad din for you yet you can't prove it from quran.


(1) My Job? sorry thats not an Answer.
(2) give me a Hadith From our Books That Khilafa is only Limited to 30 years.
(3) We have made a guide for All people. So are you saying That there was a Guide for only 30 years?
(4) Common sense. Simple.



Statements:
What's the difference??? He is still hidden isn't he so he is hiding.


I Will Repeat my Self Once again:

"No he is not Hiding, There is a Difference between Occultation by the Power Of Allah and Hiding by your Own free Will.

No need to Repeat the Question.




Statements:

No he is not. Why are you lying?? I guess you're referring to surah 13:7. Well I've told you the words used are kowmin HADI. It doesn't say "there is". The words "there is" are in brackets.

Are you a Spammer? No really? becasue We agreed on this, I believe it was page 9-10 "appointing a Successor.
No need To Repeat my self Twice.


(1) Who is Our guide today?
(2) The Prohet is a Wanrer, and Imam ALi (s) is the guide.

Proved from the Hadith I think page 6-7 "appoiting a Successor".

 

 

Statements:
They came declared their leadership tried to guide. Whereas imam mahdi a.s was under "taqqiyah" and never declared himself as being appointed. So how were people supposed to know he was appointed. I believe this is under discussion on another thread from brother ugly jinn.


 

 

You are Wrong once more:

Imam Mahid (s) Declared his Imamate Before He Went to Occultation.

1) Among those who were present at the birth of the twelfth Imam and who reported the event in great detail was Hakima Khatun, the daughter of Imam Muhammad Taqi and the aunt of Imam Hasan 'Askari. The story in brief is recounted by her as follows:

 

(2) The two maids at Imam 'Askari's residence have related that when the Imam of the Age was born he sat on his legs and raised his finger toward the sky [bearing witness to the Unity of God]. Then he sneezed and said: "Praise be to God, the Lord of the universe."On the third day, I came back to Imam 'Askari's house and straight away I went to Sawsan's room to see the child. But I did not see him. I went to the Imam's room. but hesitated to ask about the infant. The Imam at once informed me: "O aunt, my son is in concealment in God's protection. When I depart from this world and when you see my followers in dispute about my successor, tell those trustworthy among them what you have witnessed in connection with his birth. However, make sure that the event is guarded in secrecy because my son will be in occultation."
All of a sudden Sawsan's condition started changing. I asked her if everything was alright. She said that she was feeling some discomfort. I began to prepare things that were needed for delivery and took charge of the situation. Within a short while God's friend was born, all clean and pure. Just then Imam 'Askari said: "O Aunt, bring my son to me." When I took him to the Imam he held him close to himself and stroked his tongue over the infant's eyes. The eyes of the infant opened immediately. Then he stroked his mouth and ears with his tongue, and his head with his hand. At that time the infant began to recite verses from the Qur'an. Then he gave the infant back to me and asked me to take him back to his mother. I brought him to his mother and went home.
One day I was visiting Imam 'Askari's house. At night, which happened to be the fifteenth night of Sha'ban (255 AH/29th July, 870), when I wanted to return to my home, the Imam said: "Aunt, stay with us tonight, because God's friend and my successor will be born this night." I asked: "Which one of your slave-girls is expecting?" He said: "Sawsan." Hence, I started looking at her to see if there were any signs of pregnancy in her. I could not see any. After breaking the fast and finishing prayers, I slept in the same room as Sawsan. After a while I woke up from my sleep and began to think about what Imam 'Askari had predicted. Then I started performing the midnight prayers. Sawsan also woke up and prepared to perform her prayers. It was getting close to the dawn. But there was no sign of child-birth in her. I was beginning to doubt what the Imam had predicted when he said from his room: "Aunt dear, do not doubt. The time for my son's birth is approaching."

 

(3) Abu Ghanim, the servant at Imam 'Askari's house, relates that a son was born to Imam Hasan 'Askari, whom he named Muhammad. "On the third day he showed him to his companions and said: 'This son of mine will be your master and Imam after me. He is the Qa'im who is being awaited by everyone. When the earth is filled with injustice and tyranny, he will rise, and fill it with justice and equity.'"

(4) Abu 'Ali Khayzarani relates from the slave girl he had presented to Imam 'Askari that she was present at the time when the twelfth Imam was born. His mother's name was Sayqal.

(5) Hasan b. Husayn 'Alawi said: "I personally went to see Imam Hasan 'Askari in Samarra to congratulate him on the occasion of his son's birth." A similar tradition has been related by 'Abd Allah b. 'Abbas 'Alawi.

(6) Hasan b. Mundhir reports that one day Hamza b. Abu al-Fath came to see him and informed him: "Last night God granted Imam 'Askari a son. However, he has asked us to keep the matter secret. I asked him his name. He said it is Muhammad."

(7) Ahmad b. Ishaq relates that one day he came to see Imam Hasan 'Askari with the intention of asking about his successor. The Imam began the conversation. He said:

 

At that juncture Ahmad asked the Imam about his successor. The Imam went in the private quarters of his house and returned carrying a three year old boy whose face was shining like the fourteenth night moon and said:O Ahmad b. Ishaq, from the time God created Adam until the Day of Resurrection, God has not and will not leave the earth without His proof. It is because of the existence of this person that calamity is removed from earth and rain falls on it, through which the earth brings forth blessings.
 

 

(8) Mu'awiya b. Hakim, Muhammad b. Ayyub and Muhammad b. 'Uthman 'Amri related the following account:O Ahmad, if you had not been close to the Imams and highly respected by them I would not have shown my son to you. Know that this boy's name and patronymic are the same as the Prophet's name and patronymic. He is the one who will fill the earth with justice and equity.

 

We were forty people who had come together in Imam Hasan 'Askari's house. The Imam presented his son to us and said: "This is your Imam and my successor. After me you must obey him. Do not get into a dispute on this matter, otherwise you will be destroyed. However, you must remember that after this you will not be able to see him."

 

(9) Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Malik was among the group of the prominent members of the Shi'a that included 'Ali b. Bilal, Ahmad b. Hilal, Muhammad b. Mu'awiya b. Hakim and Hasan b. Ayyub. He relates the following occasion:

 

We were all gathered at the Imam 'Askari's house to find out about his successor. We were some forty people there. At that time 'Uthman b. 'Amr stood up and asked: "O son of the Prophet, we have come to ask you about something of which you have better knowledge." The Imam said: "Please be seated." He then left the room asking everyone to remain there. He returned after an hour, having brought with him a small boy whose face was shining like the moon. He then announced: "This is your Imam. Obey him. And also know that you will no more see him after today."

 

(10) Abu Harun reports that he saw the twelfth Imam when his face was shining like the full moon.

 

(11) Ya'qub relates that one day he went to visit Imam 'Askari. On the right side of the Imam he saw a room with a curtain hanging on its entrance. He asked the Imam as to who was the Master of the Age. The Imam said: "Raise the curtain!." When he raised the curtain, a boy appeared and came and sat on the Imam's lap. At that time, the Imam told Ya'qub: "This is your Imam."

(12) 'Amr Ahwazi reported that Imam 'Askari showed him his son and told him that he was the Imam after him.

(13) A Persian servant related the following:

 

I was standing at Imam Hasan 'Askari's door when I saw a maid leaving the house with something covered in her hands. The Imam said to her: "Reveal that which you have in your hands." The maid uncovered a beautiful boy. The Imam told me: "This is your Imam." After that one time I never saw that boy again.

 

(14) Abu Nasr, the servant, and Abu 'Ali Mutahhar relate that they saw the son of Imam Hasan 'Askari.

 

(15) Kamil b. Ibrahim relates that he saw the twelfth Imam in the house of Imam Hasan 'Askari. He was four years old and his face was as beautiful as the full moon. The Imam answered his questions before he asked him.

(16) Sa'd b. 'Abd Allah recounts: "I saw the Master of the Age as his face was bright like the full moon. He was sitting on his father's lap and responded to the questions I asked."

(17) Hamza b. Nusayr, Imam 'Ali Naqi's slave relates from his father: When the twelfth Imam was born the family members in the household of Imam Hasan 'Askari were congratulating each other. When the Imam had grown a little older I was asked to buy daily meat with some bone and it was said that the meat was for "our younger master."

(18) Ibrahim b. Muhammad relates:

 

Once because of fear of the governor I decided to escape from Samarra. I came to Imam Hasan 'Askari's house in order to bid him farewell. I saw a beautiful child next to him. I asked him: "O son of the Prophet, who is this child?" The Imam replied: "He is my son and successor."

 

This was the list of the trustworthy associates, relatives, and servants of Imam Hasan 'Askari who had seen his son in his childhood and who had testified to his existence. When one puts this testimony along side the information given by the Prophet and the Imams, then certainty about the existence of the son of Imam Hasan 'Askari is attained.

 

 

Imam Hasan 'Askari intentionally kept his son's name off his last will so that he would remain immune from all the danger that could come to him from the ruler of the time. In fact, he was so careful in this matter and was so fearful about his son's birth being uncovered that at times, out of necessity, he would employ precautionary dissimulation in the matter of his son with his close associates to obscure the situation for them.

One of the companions of Imam Hasan 'Askari by the name of Ibrahim b. Idris relates that the Imam sent him a sheep with a message that he should sacrifice it for the latter's having performed the ceremony of shaving off his son's birth hair ('aqiqa), and share the meat with his family. Ibrahim carried out the Imam's order. But when he came to see him the Imam said: "Our child has died." However, once again he sent Ibrahim two sheep with a letter in which the Imam instructed Ibrahim:

 

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Sacrifice these sheep for your master's ceremony of
'aqiqa
and eat the meat with your family.

 

Ibrahim carried out the order. But when he came to see the Imam the latter did not mention anything about it.

Imam Sadiq had also taken similar precautions in his last will. He had appointed five persons as executors of his will, including the 'Abbasid caliph Mansur, Muhammad b. Sulayman, the governor of Madina, his two sons, 'Abd Allah and Musa, and his wife Hamida, Musa's mother.By doing so he saved the life of his son Musa from imminent danger, because he knew that if his Imamate and legateship became known to the caliph, Mansur would have tried to get rid of his son. As a matter of fact events did happen exactly as Imam Sadiq had thought, because the caliph ordered that if the legatee of the Imam Sadiq was a specific person, then he should be killed.

 

 

 

__________________________________

 

  1. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 431.
  2. Kamal al-din, p. 105.
  3. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 433 and Vol. 7, p. 20.
  4. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 432.
  5. Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 52, p. 23.
  6. Ibid., Vol. 52, p. 25.
  7. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 311,
  8. Ibid., Vol. 7, p. 20.
  9. Ibid., Vol. 6, p. 425.
  10. Ibid., Vol. 7, p. 16.
  11. Yanabi' al-mawadda, Bab 82, p. 461.
  12. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 344; Ithbat al-wasiyya, p. 198; Yanabi' al-mawadda, Bab 82, p. 461.
  13. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 323; Yanabi' al-mawadda, p. 461.
  14. Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 52, p. 78 and 86.
  15. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 18; Ithbat al-wasiyya, p. 197.
  16. Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 356. For detailed information on the birth of the twelfth Imam see: Sayyid Hashim Bahrani, Tabsirat al-wali fiman ra'a al-qa'im al-mahdi and Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, Bab 1; and Vol. 52, Bab 17 and 19.
  17. Usul al-kafi, Bab mawlid Abi Muhammad al-Hasan b. 'Ali.
  18. Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 22.

 

 

Statements:
Why am I a liar?? Bring the hadith il research them and get back to you.


No problem. Mentioned All My Ahadith Which I have mentioned in "Appoiting A Succesor"
And Refute them One by one.





You give the Following Video.
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=AP1ELOT3Drc

(1) no Proof.
(2) As I clicked I shows "Anti Majos" thank you my Brother For Disrespecting me Once more. Very Ironic that you follow theses Extremist.

(3) Still no Proof Provided.

 

 

 

 

Statement:

Why did Allah not say he intends on keeping them "purified" if they were born sinless???

They are Purified Before time, But It is mentioned In THe Quran for the Ummah to know.
I porved you this issue, and I Now know what you do not read my posts Fully.




you then mentioned:
http://islamistruth....im-to-leave-it/


I look:

(1) MisTraslated, Becasue The Imam Is Not Adding to his prayers that makes his Prayers False.
(2) He did not Reject his Father? There was no Reply in the Initial.
(3) Like you We do not say Al KAfi is 100% Auhethentic. While you not only say Bukhair and Muslim is 100% Authentic
But Claim its the Second book after the Quran, the Irony here is that the book it self Opposes the Quran.
(4) He was Advising him, and not Claiming that it is Wrong. Thus your Proof Falls a part.





Statement:
Revise previous answer.


Which one? Reference please.



Statements:
Why??? If you want to believe occultation then go ahead like I care. No skin of my nose.       
  

Thats no An Answer.

(salam)

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Statement:

Yes he is. This is the opinion of all AHLE sunnah feel free to go and ask any alim from AHLE sunnah.

And Till Today You have given us no Proof. I have provided you on the "Who are the Blind" With Proof that

The Uli Al amr is AHlulbayt (s), Can you please give me a Hadith where the prophet (s) says that Abu Bakr is Uli Al Mar?

Can you please give me a Hadith Where the prophet (s) ordered Abu Bbakr and Ummar to go to Saqifa and choose a Khalifa?

Can you please give me a Hadith Which the prophet (s) says that Abu Bakr is The one We Should Follow?

Can you please state a Verse that came down on Abu Bbakr, and the prophet (s) said obey Abu bakr?

as I have given you the verse Where Imam Ali (s) did Ruku and gave his ring, and Allah Says Obey him.

Statement:

I've been through this verse step by step in previous posts I don't mind repeating if you want me to.

Like the one Where you gave no Proper Answer with any proof? Sure Go a Head and I will Repost the same

Questions Concerning it, Which You Failed to Answer.

Statement:

Also you said that we cannot refer to prophet (p uh) because he isn't here when in nahj ul balagah ali a.s has said otherwise:

Nahj ul balagah letter 53

, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide. The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the CLEARand EXPLICIT ORDERS given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of HIS ORDERS about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.

This is exactly what I've been saying but you and AMEEN have been adamantly saying that you cannot refer to prophet (s) because he is not here whereas ali a.s says different.

Whats ver Surpising is that you did not state the Whole Lettter: Here is the Full Letter ( please Stop Quoting things Out of Context ) In additon I could not Fine the Paragraph Which You have stated

First and Formost:

(1) Imam Ali (s) Told Him To Refer back to The Quran and the Orders of the prohet (s).

(2) I told you How Can We Refer To the prophet Entirely as a person, Since in the World today We Still have issues.

(3) after the Death of the prophet he left two Khalifas: A) Ahlulbayt B.) Quran. Explain to me How we must obey both.

(4) if Imam Ali (s) appointed Malik Al Ashtar as the governer of Eygpt. Why did he not do Shura? Why did he Appoint him?

(5) again no sense in what you stated. Merely Basless.

(6) if he is saying Obey the prophet, then that means Obey Ali (s) as Proven from Mustadrak Al Hakim ( your Book) in Appointing a Successor (page 8-12) I presume.

(7) Why did Malik al Ashtar Take Orders from Imam Ali (s)? I thought Abu Bakr is the Khalifa?

Statement:

It was you who said in your previous reply that you cannot access your twelfth imam and the scholars are the ones to turn to for ISLAMIC knowledge !!! Well if this is not authority for the scholars then what is it??

Ulmar are Refer Too For Islamic Law Issues. And Do not have Entire Authoirty over All beings and Nations.

The Imams Do. There is a Difference. Between Asking Someone For and Issue, and Refering back to Who He has Authroity over you.

Statement:

Excuse me..... But my none sense??

Il tell you what's none sense. None sense is making something usul ad din without being able to prove it using the guidelines of surah 3:7. That's none sense.

And Who Said Its based on only this verse? Can you please Provide Proof For that statement.

And yes In addtion We have proved it Earlier. But I revieved no Proper Reply.

Statement:

Well that, Brings us back to who exactly is AHLE BAYT and why have shia restricted it to twelve only. When I told you a mans bloodline/family means all his descendants and any one can confirm this for you.

Again I will Repat My self, This is illogical.

(1) Your saying Anyone Who is from the line of Fatima and Commits Sins is Purified (verese of Purifications)

(2) We must Follow Anyone Who is From the Line of Fatima. (hadith Al Thaqlain), But What if they Disagree on something.

(3) THerefore everyone from the Line of Fatima is a Khalifa? ( since the prophet said I left Two Khalifas?) nosense.

(4) In the Time of the prophet There where people from the same blood as the prophet yet they went against him, so

how can they be Considered as Ahlulbayt>

(5) you are Simply Denying.

Statement:

I'm fully aware of what's in our books and I have studied them.

Is that why When you came to My Hadiths from your books you Rejected them?

Am I Talking to a Scholar? Wow. Great.

Statement:

Since when do we regard yazid the laanti as our caliph?? We hate him so I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you're confusing me with the ahle hadith. Hazrath abdullah bin Zubair r.a and other SUNNIS fought against him because we hate him.

Muwaiiah Is Considered Caliph and So is Yazid, and According to the Sunnah they are Chaliphs.

(1) They Faught Ahlulabyt (s)

(2) They are Chosen by the Previous Caliphs.

Statement:

If ahle BAYT hadith is talking about IMAMATE then is bibi FATIMA an infalliable imam??

(1) Fatima'at al Zahra (as) is Infailable.

(2) The Imams Are InFailable.

(3) no she is not an Imam, she is of the Ahlulbayt (s).

Statement:

if there was a precise verse then the ummah would never have split.

There are Precise verses, But Who Do we take our Knowldge from?

People Who Love Ahlulbayt? or people Who Fought against and hate Ahlulbayt (s)?

Statements:

I will do my research regarding the hadiths you pointed out please list them.

Refer to Page 6-12 Appoiting a Successor and Analyzse the given and Refute them Over there.

Statements:

That site was running through hadiths from AHLE BAYT so your claims that we think EVERYTHING from AHLE BAYT is fabricated is useless and baseless. So you can keep your useless baseless arguments to yourself.

(1) you mentioned Sites Which I have taken into Analogy and found most of it was Wrong as I proved Earlier.

(2) The Sites you gave Call us Unbelievers. ( thank you so much)

(3) you gave me a link to a Video Made by An Extremist Who Call us "Majos" ( again you Disrespect me)

and can you please give me a site where it has the three Charaterstics Above, Where I mentioend it to you.

Statements:

If you had bothered reading the beginning of what was written on that site it said "the most authentic books". He never said all books but he specifically was talking about the most authentic books for us both.

(1) We want Clear proof, and not Facts bases on opinions.

(2) proved Wrong as Mentioned:

"(1) Please Revise Musnad Fatima in Al Kafi.

(2) We have many narrations about and from Fatima In Bihar al Anwar."

Statement:

Why should I??? It's your job to prove your usul ad din from quran, which was the very reason for the split. We have hadiths where prophet (s) said follow the caliphs then we were told caliphate will last 30 years and then will become kingship.

So common sense tells us that if we add up all the years that the 5 caliphs ruled it adds upto 30 years. After that all we know is that imam mahdi a.s will come It's usul ad din for you yet you can't prove it from quran.

(1) My Job? sorry thats not an Answer.

(2) give me a Hadith From our Books That Khilafa is only Limited to 30 years.

(3) We have made a guide for All people. So are you saying That there was a Guide for only 30 years?

(4) Common sense. Simple.

Statements:

What's the difference??? He is still hidden isn't he so he is hiding.

I Will Repeat my Self Once again:

"No he is not Hiding, There is a Difference between Occultation by the Power Of Allah and Hiding by your Own free Will.

No need to Repeat the Question.

Statements:

No he is not. Why are you lying?? I guess you're referring to surah 13:7. Well I've told you the words used are kowmin HADI. It doesn't say "there is". The words "there is" are in brackets.

Are you a Spammer? No really? becasue We agreed on this, I believe it was page 9-10 "appointing a Successor.

No need To Repeat my self Twice.

(1) Who is Our guide today?

(2) The Prohet is a Wanrer, and Imam ALi (s) is the guide.

Proved from the Hadith I think page 6-7 "appoiting a Successor".

Statements:

They came declared their leadership tried to guide. Whereas imam mahdi a.s was under "taqqiyah" and never declared himself as being appointed. So how were people supposed to know he was appointed. I believe this is under discussion on another thread from brother ugly jinn.

You are Wrong once more:

Imam Mahid (s) Declared his Imamate Before He Went to Occultation.

1) Among those who were present at the birth of the twelfth Imam and who reported the event in great detail was Hakima Khatun, the daughter of Imam Muhammad Taqi and the aunt of Imam Hasan 'Askari. The story in brief is recounted by her as follows:

(2) The two maids at Imam 'Askari's residence have related that when the Imam of the Age was born he sat on his legs and raised his finger toward the sky [bearing witness to the Unity of God]. Then he sneezed and said: "Praise be to God, the Lord of the universe."On the third day, I came back to Imam 'Askari's house and straight away I went to Sawsan's room to see the child. But I did not see him. I went to the Imam's room. but hesitated to ask about the infant. The Imam at once informed me: "O aunt, my son is in concealment in God's protection. When I depart from this world and when you see my followers in dispute about my successor, tell those trustworthy among them what you have witnessed in connection with his birth. However, make sure that the event is guarded in secrecy because my son will be in occultation."

All of a sudden Sawsan's condition started changing. I asked her if everything was alright. She said that she was feeling some discomfort. I began to prepare things that were needed for delivery and took charge of the situation. Within a short while God's friend was born, all clean and pure. Just then Imam 'Askari said: "O Aunt, bring my son to me." When I took him to the Imam he held him close to himself and stroked his tongue over the infant's eyes. The eyes of the infant opened immediately. Then he stroked his mouth and ears with his tongue, and his head with his hand. At that time the infant began to recite verses from the Qur'an. Then he gave the infant back to me and asked me to take him back to his mother. I brought him to his mother and went home.

One day I was visiting Imam 'Askari's house. At night, which happened to be the fifteenth night of Sha'ban (255 AH/29th July, 870), when I wanted to return to my home, the Imam said: "Aunt, stay with us tonight, because God's friend and my successor will be born this night." I asked: "Which one of your slave-girls is expecting?" He said: "Sawsan." Hence, I started looking at her to see if there were any signs of pregnancy in her. I could not see any. After breaking the fast and finishing prayers, I slept in the same room as Sawsan. After a while I woke up from my sleep and began to think about what Imam 'Askari had predicted. Then I started performing the midnight prayers. Sawsan also woke up and prepared to perform her prayers. It was getting close to the dawn. But there was no sign of child-birth in her. I was beginning to doubt what the Imam had predicted when he said from his room: "Aunt dear, do not doubt. The time for my son's birth is approaching."

(3) Abu Ghanim, the servant at Imam 'Askari's house, relates that a son was born to Imam Hasan 'Askari, whom he named Muhammad. "On the third day he showed him to his companions and said: 'This son of mine will be your master and Imam after me. He is the Qa'im who is being awaited by everyone. When the earth is filled with injustice and tyranny, he will rise, and fill it with justice and equity.'"

(4) Abu 'Ali Khayzarani relates from the slave girl he had presented to Imam 'Askari that she was present at the time when the twelfth Imam was born. His mother's name was Sayqal.

(5) Hasan b. Husayn 'Alawi said: "I personally went to see Imam Hasan 'Askari in Samarra to congratulate him on the occasion of his son's birth." A similar tradition has been related by 'Abd Allah b. 'Abbas 'Alawi.

(6) Hasan b. Mundhir reports that one day Hamza b. Abu al-Fath came to see him and informed him: "Last night God granted Imam 'Askari a son. However, he has asked us to keep the matter secret. I asked him his name. He said it is Muhammad."

(7) Ahmad b. Ishaq relates that one day he came to see Imam Hasan 'Askari with the intention of asking about his successor. The Imam began the conversation. He said:

At that juncture Ahmad asked the Imam about his successor. The Imam went in the private quarters of his house and returned carrying a three year old boy whose face was shining like the fourteenth night moon and said:O Ahmad b. Ishaq, from the time God created Adam until the Day of Resurrection, God has not and will not leave the earth without His proof. It is because of the existence of this person that calamity is removed from earth and rain falls on it, through which the earth brings forth blessings.

(8) Mu'awiya b. Hakim, Muhammad b. Ayyub and Muhammad b. 'Uthman 'Amri related the following account:O Ahmad, if you had not been close to the Imams and highly respected by them I would not have shown my son to you. Know that this boy's name and patronymic are the same as the Prophet's name and patronymic. He is the one who will fill the earth with justice and equity.

We were forty people who had come together in Imam Hasan 'Askari's house. The Imam presented his son to us and said: "This is your Imam and my successor. After me you must obey him. Do not get into a dispute on this matter, otherwise you will be destroyed. However, you must remember that after this you will not be able to see him."

(9) Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Malik was among the group of the prominent members of the Shi'a that included 'Ali b. Bilal, Ahmad b. Hilal, Muhammad b. Mu'awiya b. Hakim and Hasan b. Ayyub. He relates the following occasion:

We were all gathered at the Imam 'Askari's house to find out about his successor. We were some forty people there. At that time 'Uthman b. 'Amr stood up and asked: "O son of the Prophet, we have come to ask you about something of which you have better knowledge." The Imam said: "Please be seated." He then left the room asking everyone to remain there. He returned after an hour, having brought with him a small boy whose face was shining like the moon. He then announced: "This is your Imam. Obey him. And also know that you will no more see him after today."

(10) Abu Harun reports that he saw the twelfth Imam when his face was shining like the full moon.

(11) Ya'qub relates that one day he went to visit Imam 'Askari. On the right side of the Imam he saw a room with a curtain hanging on its entrance. He asked the Imam as to who was the Master of the Age. The Imam said: "Raise the curtain!." When he raised the curtain, a boy appeared and came and sat on the Imam's lap. At that time, the Imam told Ya'qub: "This is your Imam."

(12) 'Amr Ahwazi reported that Imam 'Askari showed him his son and told him that he was the Imam after him.

(13) A Persian servant related the following:

I was standing at Imam Hasan 'Askari's door when I saw a maid leaving the house with something covered in her hands. The Imam said to her: "Reveal that which you have in your hands." The maid uncovered a beautiful boy. The Imam told me: "This is your Imam." After that one time I never saw that boy again.

(14) Abu Nasr, the servant, and Abu 'Ali Mutahhar relate that they saw the son of Imam Hasan 'Askari.

(15) Kamil b. Ibrahim relates that he saw the twelfth Imam in the house of Imam Hasan 'Askari. He was four years old and his face was as beautiful as the full moon. The Imam answered his questions before he asked him.

(16) Sa'd b. 'Abd Allah recounts: "I saw the Master of the Age as his face was bright like the full moon. He was sitting on his father's lap and responded to the questions I asked."

(17) Hamza b. Nusayr, Imam 'Ali Naqi's slave relates from his father: When the twelfth Imam was born the family members in the household of Imam Hasan 'Askari were congratulating each other. When the Imam had grown a little older I was asked to buy daily meat with some bone and it was said that the meat was for "our younger master."

(18) Ibrahim b. Muhammad relates:

Once because of fear of the governor I decided to escape from Samarra. I came to Imam Hasan 'Askari's house in order to bid him farewell. I saw a beautiful child next to him. I asked him: "O son of the Prophet, who is this child?" The Imam replied: "He is my son and successor."

This was the list of the trustworthy associates, relatives, and servants of Imam Hasan 'Askari who had seen his son in his childhood and who had testified to his existence. When one puts this testimony along side the information given by the Prophet and the Imams, then certainty about the existence of the son of Imam Hasan 'Askari is attained.

Imam Hasan 'Askari intentionally kept his son's name off his last will so that he would remain immune from all the danger that could come to him from the ruler of the time. In fact, he was so careful in this matter and was so fearful about his son's birth being uncovered that at times, out of necessity, he would employ precautionary dissimulation in the matter of his son with his close associates to obscure the situation for them.

One of the companions of Imam Hasan 'Askari by the name of Ibrahim b. Idris relates that the Imam sent him a sheep with a message that he should sacrifice it for the latter's having performed the ceremony of shaving off his son's birth hair ('aqiqa), and share the meat with his family. Ibrahim carried out the Imam's order. But when he came to see him the Imam said: "Our child has died." However, once again he sent Ibrahim two sheep with a letter in which the Imam instructed Ibrahim:

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Sacrifice these sheep for your master's ceremony of 'aqiqa and eat the meat with your family.

Ibrahim carried out the order. But when he came to see the Imam the latter did not mention anything about it.

Imam Sadiq had also taken similar precautions in his last will. He had appointed five persons as executors of his will, including the 'Abbasid caliph Mansur, Muhammad b. Sulayman, the governor of Madina, his two sons, 'Abd Allah and Musa, and his wife Hamida, Musa's mother.By doing so he saved the life of his son Musa from imminent danger, because he knew that if his Imamate and legateship became known to the caliph, Mansur would have tried to get rid of his son. As a matter of fact events did happen exactly as Imam Sadiq had thought, because the caliph ordered that if the legatee of the Imam Sadiq was a specific person, then he should be killed.

__________________________________

  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 431.
  • Kamal al-din, p. 105.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 433 and Vol. 7, p. 20.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 432.
  • Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 52, p. 23.
  • Ibid., Vol. 52, p. 25.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 6, p. 311,
  • Ibid., Vol. 7, p. 20.
  • Ibid., Vol. 6, p. 425.
  • Ibid., Vol. 7, p. 16.
  • Yanabi' al-mawadda, Bab 82, p. 461.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 344; Ithbat al-wasiyya, p. 198; Yanabi' al-mawadda, Bab 82, p. 461.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 323; Yanabi' al-mawadda, p. 461.
  • Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 52, p. 78 and 86.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 18; Ithbat al-wasiyya, p. 197.
  • Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 356. For detailed information on the birth of the twelfth Imam see: Sayyid Hashim Bahrani, Tabsirat al-wali fiman ra'a al-qa'im al-mahdi and Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, Bab 1; and Vol. 52, Bab 17 and 19.
  • Usul al-kafi, Bab mawlid Abi Muhammad al-Hasan b. 'Ali.
  • Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 22.

Statements:

Why am I a liar?? Bring the hadith il research them and get back to you.

No problem. Mentioned All My Ahadith Which I have mentioned in "Appoiting A Succesor"

And Refute them One by one.

You give the Following Video.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=AP1ELOT3Drc

(1) no Proof.

(2) As I clicked I shows "Anti Majos" thank you my Brother For Disrespecting me Once more. Very Ironic that you follow theses Extremist.

(3) Still no Proof Provided.

Statement:

Why did Allah not say he intends on keeping them "purified" if they were born sinless???

They are Purified Before time, But It is mentioned In THe Quran for the Ummah to know.

I porved you this issue, and I Now know what you do not read my posts Fully.

you then mentioned:

http://islamistruth....im-to-leave-it/

I look:

(1) MisTraslated, Becasue The Imam Is Not Adding to his prayers that makes his Prayers False.

(2) He did not Reject his Father? There was no Reply in the Initial.

(3) Like you We do not say Al KAfi is 100% Auhethentic. While you not only say Bukhair and Muslim is 100% Authentic

But Claim its the Second book after the Quran, the Irony here is that the book it self Opposes the Quran.

(4) He was Advising him, and not Claiming that it is Wrong. Thus your Proof Falls a part.

Statement:

Revise previous answer.

Which one? Reference please.

Statements:

Why??? If you want to believe occultation then go ahead like I care. No skin of my nose.

Thats no An Answer.

(salam)

I tell you one thing "brother" you're one hell of a trouble maker. In my previous post when I posted that video I told you ignore the anti shia comments and concentrate on wgat the two shaykh's are talking about, but obviously you're adamant on making me look bad.

Anyway replying to you is like talking to a brick wall so you can talk to yourself from now on.

You ask for proof of caliphate when I told you caliphate is not usul ad din and the prophet (pbuh) did not leave behind a successor.

Right from day one you haven't been able to prove the two things which hold up your aqidah:

1. Imamate from quran using the guidelines of surah 3:7

2. Infallibility of AHLE BAYT. Allah. (Swt) says he "intends" to "purify" them when according to shia they were born purified. You come out with every lame excuse under the sun but it still doesn't change the fact that Allah (swt) "intends" to "purify" them.

If they were born purified Allah (swt) would have said he (swt) intends to keep you "purified".

You are also very ignorant because you ignore rock solid evidence from the quran that prophets a.s can commit minor mistakes.

I don't know why you turn a blind eye to them verses and instead trust al islam and shiapen.

Anyways I'm done with you and I will not be wasting anymore time on you.

Goodbye.

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Salaam brother just the truth. I have a few questions, you said "the Prophet (pbuh) did not leave behind a successor", Ok! So according to the Ahle Suunah, what did the Prophet (pbuh) leave behind??? What did he advise on leadership (any criteria/procedure)???

Brother just the truth, is evidence and proof only required and can only be asked for, regarding Usool-e-Deen??? What does "le-yuzhiba" and "yo-tahiro-kum" from Ayath-e-Tatheer mean????

Brother just the truth, you said "i can prove sakeefa was wrong but the decision was right", if the whole process was wrong how can the outcome be right??? If the base is wrong how can the build be right???

Salaam brothers and sisters. According to the Ahle Sunnah, Ulul Amre is Hakim-e-Waqth (leader of the country). It doesn't matter how the person became leader of the country or what ever his character and personality is, it doesn't matter what ever he says and does or what ever he gets involved in or gets up to, he is the Ulul Amre. To be continued.

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I tell you one thing "brother" you're one hell of a trouble maker. In my previous post when I posted that video I told you ignore the anti shia comments and concentrate on wgat the two shaykh's are talking about, but obviously you're adamant on making me look bad.

Anyway replying to you is like talking to a brick wall so you can talk to yourself from now on.

You ask for proof of caliphate when I told you caliphate is not usul ad din and the prophet (pbuh) did not leave behind a successor.

Right from day one you haven't been able to prove the two things which hold up your aqidah:

1. Imamate from quran using the guidelines of surah 3:7

2. Infallibility of AHLE BAYT. Allah. ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says he "intends" to "purify" them when according to shia they were born purified. You come out with every lame excuse under the sun but it still doesn't change the fact that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì "intends" to "purify" them.

If they were born purified Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì would have said he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì intends to keep you "purified".

You are also very ignorant because you ignore rock solid evidence from the quran that prophets a.s can commit minor mistakes.

I don't know why you turn a blind eye to them verses and instead trust al islam and shiapen.

Anyways I'm done with you and I will not be wasting anymore time on you.

Goodbye.

 

 

 

(1) opinion is not what we are looking for here, We are Looking for Actual Logical Proof. And Concerning the Video, Who is Anti-Shia, I ask where is the Evidence?

(2) My pleasure.

(3) So the prophet did not leave behind a Successor? As you claim, but therefore your saying haron Was never an Imam at time of moses? 

I am sorry, But through out this Argument I gave you logical and Evidence Which you can Refer back to, but I do not understand Why you Would Reject Imamah? thus The Sunnah believe in Abu Bakr as an Imam of the Ummah? and the other 2, Again I ask Who are the 12 Khalifas Mentioned in Bukhari?

(4) No one Said that Imamah Is Restricted  to one verses. and Concerning 3:7 You did not give me a logical Refutation you simply left it to be and moved on.

(5) I believe We have been through this. And Excuse me, but my "lame" Excuses as you claimed are Ahadith from your own books and Corrected by your own scholars, its not fair to Offend them, for their "Lame" Excuses.

(6) And No Prophets Do not Commit Minor Sins. I will inshalla make a post and I Will tag you along, as soon as I get the Chance inshalla.

(7) Excuse me My brother, but not everything is From Shiapen, but even so if was, Would you not bother to Check if its wrong or Right? like how you gave me the Bias Sites and I Went over them? And your Mistaken I did not base My Entire Knowledge on Websites, I my self have knowledge in theses things Before, And I have books to refer to, Sorry again but What Kind of Excuse are you trying to Point out?

(8) (salam) May Allah Guide you and Guide me on the Straight path Inshalla.

  

 

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AMEEN

Wrong wrong wrong... You are wrong.

The main thing the prophet (pbuh) left behind as a guide was the quran which is still guiding us whereas your imam isn't. The quran is accessible whereas your imam isn't.

So you tell me who is a better guide??? Quran or an imam who is inaccessible??

The prophet (pbuh) also left behind his AHLE BAYT and when you can tell me why AHLE BAYT is restricted to twelve only then we can talk.

You point out the verse of purification. Well answer me this why does Allah (swt) say he "intends" to "purify" them if they were born pure??

It's a bit like Allah (swt) saying he "intends" to make paradise when really he already has.

Imagine there was a verse where Allah (swt) says he "intends" on making paradise. The Christian missionaries would slaughter is saying hold up we thought that Allah (swt) has already made paradise so why is he saying he "intends" to make it???

We would get slaughtered by them.

The process in which abu bakr was chosen was wrong and it wasn't shura but the outcome was good because abu bakr r.a was a good man.i don't know which part of that is confusing!!!

You talk about AHLE sunnah like you know us.... YOU DON'T.

We believe we are allowed to fight the ulil amr just like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought the ulil amr of his time and we hold him in high esteem for his revolt because the ulil amr was corrupt.

Now maybe you can tell me why bibi fatimah r.a was infallible??

Don't say because she was from AHLE BAYT because I know this. I want to know what was the reason behind her infallibility??

The imams were made "infallible" (according to shia) because Allah (swt) chose them as his representatives on earth but why bibi fatimah r.a???

She wasn't going to become an infallible imam so what is the purpose of her infallibility.

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Continued. So according to the Ahle Suunah people like Yazeed are UlulAmre. He was Hakim-e-Waqth, Khalifatul-Muslimeen of his time. He was accepted by the vast majority. Now this means Allah hasn't put anybody specific and worthy alongside himself and his Messenger (pbuh) and in the same sequence but left the position open to anybody that comes along, how ever they come along and what ever they get up to. Allah has told us to obey the Ulul Amre but according to the Ahle Ahle Sunnah, he also has given us the option to openly disagree with them. And not only disagree with the Ulul Amre in some matters but in any matter what so ever. So basically you can come up with any lame excuse, creat a disagreement and cick the Ulul Amre on oneside and totally disregard him. Wow! Doesn't this sound great???

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Continued. So according to the Ahle Suunah people like Yazeed are UlulAmre. He was Hakim-e-Waqth, Khalifatul-Muslimeen of his time. He was accepted by the vast majority. Now this means Allah hasn't put anybody specific and worthy alongside himself and his Messenger (pbuh) and in the same sequence but left the position open to anybody that comes along, how ever they come along and what ever they get up to. Allah has told us to obey the Ulul Amre but according to the Ahle Ahle Sunnah, he also has given us the option to openly disagree with them. And not only disagree with the Ulul Amre in some matters but in any matter what so ever. So basically you can come up with any lame excuse, creat a disagreement and cick the Ulul Amre on oneside and totally disregard him. Wow! Doesn't this sound great???

Answer the previous post.

...and yazid was a laanti and by him martyring imam Hussein a.s hazrath abdullah bin Zubair revolted against him. Wow beautiful I like the way you said any lame excuse!!! If this was a lame excuse for the revolt of abdullah bin Zubair r.a thrn may Allah ( swt) guide you!!!!

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I will answer all your questions but first i advise you to stick to the principal and that is we are discussing the Ulul Amre verse. This is the topic and lets stick to it and ask and answer, what is related to it.

I have given you my explanation regarding verse 4:59 a million times please refute it then we will move forward.

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statement:

The main thing the prophet (s) left behind as a guide was the quran which is still guiding us whereas your imam isn't. The quran is accessible whereas your imam isn't.

Questions:

(1) How Do We hold on To Ahlulbayt (s) Please Explain.

(2) Give me a A Hadith Where the prophet (s) said All The Decedents is Considered as Ahlulbayt.
(3) Hadith Al Thaqalian as Also been said by the prophet (s) many times, and one of them was in the Style of "Khalifa". Explain.



Statement:

So you tell me who is a better guide??? Quran or an imam who is inaccessible??

The prophet said I have left you Two Things, Hold on To them and you Will Never Go on astray, Ahlulbayt and the Quran.
 

 

Statements:
The prophet (s) also left behind his AHLE BAYT and when you can tell me why AHLE BAYT is restricted to twelve only then we can talk.


(1) can you tell me Why The Successors of Jesus (s) were Only twelve?

(2) can you tell me Why Prophethood is only Restricted to 124,000?
(3) through Sunni Narrations In page 6-8 Appointing a Successor We have proved the 12 issues.
(4) Why is the Number of Khalifs Mentioned in Hadith (Sahih Bukhair & Muslims and Our books) but not in the Quran? please Explain.

 

 

Statements:

You point out the verse of purification. Well answer me this why does Allah  say he "intends" to "purify" them if they were born pure??

What Kind of Question is this? How are We suppose to Question What Allah says?
And keep in mind that When Allah Intends, He wants, and When he Wants he has been done.
are you saying that What Allah Wants will not get? (Istaghfarallah)

 

Sorry but you make no sense let us Examine the following:
 

وَلَا تُعْجِبْكَ أَمْوَالُهُمْ وَأَوْلَادُهُمْ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُعَذِّبَهُم بِهَا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَتَزْهَقَ أَنفُسُهُمْ وَهُمْ كَافِرُونَ

 " And let not their wealth and their children impress you. Allah only intends to punish them through them in this world and that their souls should depart [at death] while they are disbelievers. " - 9:85

We can see here very Clearly that Allah is telling not to care about the Wealth and Children of others of Certain people, and that Allah INTENTS only to punish them through them. So here you cannot say, that Allah has Punished them before, But he does this TO THEM, To punish them, and this goes Vise-verse to the Purification verse. Allah INTENDS to Remove "Rijs" From Alhulbayt to Purify them, from All that is "Rijs" (sin).


Again lets take another look at another verse:

_______


 

وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَن يَفْتِنُوكَ عَن بَعْضِ مَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُصِيبَهُم بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ

"And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient." - 5:49 

We see the same issue here, that if they the people Turn away from What Allah has Revealed to them, then Allah Well Intend to Afflict them With their own sins, and keep reading and he says "Many people are Defiantly Disobedient, to assure this issue stated. But When We Compare this verse to the Purification verse we see, that in the Purification Allah is being Direct That he "Only Intends", and no Factors for that intention is Required to make the "Intention" happen, but it is Direct and a Must. Same with the Above verse.   


there are many more verses I can mention Also on this issue.



  

Statement:

The process in which abu bakr was chosen was wrong and it wasn't shura but the outcome was good because abu bakr r.a was a good man.i don't know which part of that is confusing. 


(1) A good Faithful Muslim to the prophet (s) Would not Threaten Fatima (s).
(2) he made Fatima (s) angry.
(3) They joined and he also in the Burning of the house of Fatima (s).

(4) forced Ali (s) into B'aya While the being Threatened.
(5) Abounded the Funereal of the prophet (s).
(6) much more  presume.
(7) Likewise Umar Stopped the prophet from Writing his own Will. What Kind Companion opposes the Orders of the prophet (s)?
Which are the Orders of Allah?


  

Statement: 

You talk about AHLE sunnah like you know us.... YOU DON'T.

Vise-verse & Don't be Quick to Judge.

 

Statement:

We believe we are allowed to fight the ulil amr just like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought the ulil amr of his time and we hold him in high esteem for his revolt because the ulil amr was corrupt.

(1) Allah Tells you to Obey Uli al Amr.
(2) uli Al Amr are not the Pen and paper Khalifas.
(3) yes Zaid Fought against the oppression ob Bani Ummayah. but they were not Uli Al Amr.
(4) your Telling me that Allah Tells us That Everyone Who has Authority of a territory even though he is 
and oppressor? When Allah Tells us to Obey him after the prophet (s)? you make no sense. Can you please 
Give a verse that States Uli Al Amr in Evil Terms, from the Quran please.

 

 
Statements:
Now maybe you can tell me why bibi fatimah r.a was infallible??

 

I think its very Clear:

 

one of Fatima Zahra's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã names was "At Taherah" (the virtuous or pure). This meaning is related to the verse:  

  
 

"And Allah only wished to remove all abomination from you, ye member of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless." (33: 33)  
  

 

The above-mentioned verse is of great importance because of its subtle meaning and significance.  
  

 

This verse is considered the main source of virtues granted to Ahlul-Bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã; around it various debates and many writings took place. It might be more appropriate to say that this verse was the field of debates, contradicting viewpoints and inconsistent opinions. This is especially true when it comes to who was meant by "the Family," or Ahlul-Bayt.  
  

 

Nevertheless, it is indisputable that this verse, known as "the verse of purification" concerns Fatima At-Taherah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and both Shiite and Sunni scholars agree on this, except a very small number. This established fact has been reached in light of the traditions, which unanimously state that the said verse includes Ali, Fatima, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Yet some hold the viewpoint that the verse includes the Prophet's wives-because of the word "Family" and the sequence of the surrounding verses that include a speech to them; however, he (S) prohibited even his wife, Umme Salama, from joining them under the cloak prior to the revelation of this verse.  
  

 

Although the number of narrators who report that the "verse of purification" was revealed regarding Ali, Fatima, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã reach several hundreds, it will be useful to include narrations and sources which are reported by prominent Sunni scholars about this subject. I would like to point out that this list should be satisfying for any clear conscience.  
  

 

1. Baghdadi in his history book Tareekh Baghdad, v. 10, mentioned that Abu Sa'id Al-Khudari remarked regarding the verse: 

 

'And Allah only wished to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family and to make you pure and spotless," 
  

 

that the Messenger of Allah gathered Ali, Fatima, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain under a cloak and said: 

 

"These are my Ahlul-Bayt (i.e., Family), O Allah; remove all abominations from them and make them pure and spotless " 
  

 

Umme Salama, who was standing near the door, said:  
  

 

"Am I not one of them, O Messenger of Allah?" 
  

 

He said: "You are (up to a) good ending." 
  

 

2. Zamakhshari in Al-Kashaf, v.1, p. 193 narrated on the account of Aisha, that Allah's Messenger came out wearing an embroidered, ornamented cloak of woven black hair, when Al-Hassan Ibn Ali came to him and went under it; then Al-Hussain followed him, then Fatima, then Ali. At that moment (S) quoted the verse:  
  

 

"And Allah only wished to remove all abominations from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless." 
  

 

3. Razi in his interpretation of the Quran v. 2, p. 700, (printed in Istanbul), writes: 

 

"When he (the Prophetcame out wearing the black cloak, and A1 Hassan came under it and Al-Hussain, and Fatima and Ali the Prophet said: 'And Allah only wishes......" 
  

 

4. Ibn Al-Athir Al-Jazari reported in his book Usd al-Ghaba Fi Maarefat As-Sahabah v. 2, p. 12, that Omar Ibn Abu Salamah, the Prophet's stepson, said: 

 

"When the verse And Allah only wishes...' was revealed to the Prophet (S) he had gathered Fatima, Hassan and Hussain under his cloak, while Ali was behind him, and said:

 

`This is my family, therefore, remove all abomination from them, and make them pure and spotless.'

 

Umme Salama said: Am I one of them, Messenger of Allah?' He said: 'You will be in good condition." 
  

 

5. Sebt Ibn al-Jawzi reported in Tazkerah al-Aemah, p.244, that Wathelah Ibn Asqa' said:  
  

 

"I went to ask Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã about Ali; she told me to go to the Messenger of Allah (S) and ask him, so I went and sat down to wait for him; I then saw the Prophet coming in the company of Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain. He held their hands until they entered the room. He then sat Al-Hassan on his right leg and Al-Hussain on his left leg and ordered Ali and Fatima to sit near him. The Prophet (S) covered them with his cloak (or garment) and read: And Allah only wishes... than he (S)) supplicated to Allah and said:

 

"O Allah, truly these are my Ahlul-Bayt (Family)." 
  

 

6. Imam Wahedi reported in his book Asbab An-Nozul that Umme Salama, the Prophet's wife, narrated that Allah's Messenger (S)was present in her house when Fatima brought him an earthenware pot filled with wheat cooked with milk. He (S) said: "Call in your husband and two sons for me." Thus, Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain came and joined him in eating the food. Meanwhile, he (S) sat on a bench, covered with a Khairban cloak.  
  

 

Umme Salama added: "I was in my room performing prayers when the Arch-Angel Gabriel revealed: 
  

 

"O Allah, these are my Family and Kin; therefore, remove all abomination from them and make them pure and spotless."  
  

 

At hearing that, I looked in the house and said: "Am I one of them, O Apostle of Allah?' 
  

 

Moreover, Tirmadhi reported in his "Sahih" that Allah's Messenger since the time this verse was revealed and for six months thereafter, stood by Fatima's house (door) and said: 

 

"(Time for) prayers Ahlul-Bayt; Allah only wished to remove all abomination from you and make you pure and spotless." 
  

 

7. Ibn Sabagh al-Maliki in his book al-Fosoul al-Muhemah p.7, narrated a tradition similar to the one already mentioned by Wahidi; but he added: Some poets said the following in this regard:

 

Surely Muhammad and his successor and

Their two sons, and his virtuous and pure daughter;

are the people of the cloak who in adhering to them, I long for

peace and success on the Last Day. 
  

 

8. Abu Bakr Suyuti narrated this tradition on the authority of Umme Salama, Aisha, Abu Sa'id Al-Khudari, Zeid Ibn Arqam, Ibn Abbas, Dahak Ibn Muzahim, Abu al-Hamra, Omar Ibn Salama and others in his books: al-Durr al-Manthur v. 5, p. 198, Al-Khasaes al-Kubra v. 2, p. 264, and Al-Itqan v. 2, p. 200.  
  

 

They all reported that the Prophet (S) gathered Fatima, Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain, when the verse 'And Allah only wishes to remove... " and covered them with a cloak.  
  

 

He then said: "By Allah, these are my Ahlul-Bayt, therefore remove all abomination from them pure and spotless." 
  

 

9. Tabari in Dhakhaer al-Uqbi p. 21, declared that this verse was revealed in regard to the purified five (the Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain), relying on Omar Ibn Abu Salama's narration.  
  

 

He also reported that Umme Salama said: 

 

"Allah's Messenger covered Fatima, Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain, including himself with a garment and read this verse:

 

"And Allah only wished to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless." (33: 33) 
  

 

She then added: "So I came to join them when the Prophet (S) said: 'Stay where you are, you will have a good conclusion." 
  

 

In another narration, she was quoted as saying: 

 

"Allah's Messenger said to Fatima: 'Bring your bright cloak; and put his hands on them and said:

 

'O Allah, these are the progeny of Muhammad, thus bless and praise them for surely you are praiseworthy and Exalted."' 
  

 

Umme Salama added: 

 

"I then lifted the cloak to join them, but he pulled it away and said: You are alright. " 
  

 

10. Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Al-Ghoutroubi reported that this verse was revealed in regard to Ahlul-Bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in his book Al-Jame' Li Ahkam al-Quran v.14, p.182.  
  

 

11. Ibn al-Arabi in his book Ahkam al-Quran v. 2, p. 166. 
  

 

12. Ibn Abd al-Bir al-Ondolosi in his book al-Esti'ab v. 2, p. 460. 
  

 

13. Al-Bihaqi in his book As Sunan al-Kubra v., p. 149. 
  

 

14Al-Hakim al-Nishaburi in his book al-Mustadrak al- Sahihain v.2, p.416.  
  

 

He narrated a tradition on the authority of Umme Salama similar to what has already been mentioned and...  
  

 

He (S) said: "O Allah, this is my family (Ahlul-Bayt)." 
  

 

Umme Salama then said:  
  

 

"Messenger of Allah, am I not from Ablul-Bayt?" 
  

 

The Prophet answered:  
  

 

"You are alright, but these are my Ahlul-Bayt..." 
  

 

15. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in Musnad v. 1, p. 331.  
  

 

16. Nisaee in Khasa'es p. 4.  
  

 

17. Muhammad Ibn Jarir At Tabari in his interpretation of the Quran, v. 22, p. 5.  
  

 

18. A1-Khawarazmi in Kitab al-Manaqib p. 35.  
  

 

19. Al-Haithami in Majma' al-Zawaed v. 9, p. 166.  
  

 

20. Ibn Hajar al-Haithami in al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa p. 85.  
  

 

It is necessary to further elaborate on this subject, since the verse of purification declares, beyond doubt, that Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã is pure. Nevertheless, it may be beneficial to explain the meaning of the word "Rijs" or abomination mentioned in the verse.  
  

 

"Rijs" means that Allah purified her from the monthly menstruation in addition to all abomination and depravities. "Rijs" is all that is deemed impure by human nature, conforms with evil doings, deserves punishment, detracts from one's good reputation, brings about sins, rejected by nature or mars any of the knightly virtues.  
  

 

Ibn Al-Arabi also said in Al-Futouhat al-Makkiah, Chapter 29, that Rijs is "anything which detracts from one's character." 
  

 

The definition that Al-Arabi gave for the word Rijs, is the definition for the word "infallible" which the Shiites believe is an inseparable character of all Prophets, Imams, and Lady Fatima Zahra Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. It is indeed an excellent virtue and a great honor that Allah has bestowed upon some of his servants.  
  

 

It is worthy to mention that infallibility is an inseparable trait of those who propagate divine laws; yet, because infallibility is a prerequisite for prophets and Imams in their roles of propagating divine rules, it does not mean that others, who also propagate, are safeguarded from sins.  
  

 

Imam Ali  proved Fatima's infallibility using the verse of purification in his argument with Abu Bakr.  
  

 

The Imam (s) : "Abu Bakr, do you read Allah's book?" 
  

 

He answered: "yes" 
  

 

Imam Ali (s) "Then tell me about whom was the following verse revealed?

 

'And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and make you pure and spotless.'

 

"Was it not revealed in regard to us, Ahlul-Bayt?" 
  

 

Abu Bakr said: "Yes, it was revealed regarding you" 
  

 

He Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: "If some men testify that Fatima, the Messenger's daughter, committed an abomination what would you do?" 
  

 

He answered: "I would administer the legal punishment to her, just like any other Muslim woman!' 
  

 

He Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã then said: "If you did so, you would be an infidel in the eyes of Allah." 
  

 

Abu Bakr said: "Why?" 
  

 

Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã replied: "Because you would have rejected Allah's testimony of her purity and virtue (infallibility), and surpassed people's testimony over it..."
  

 

A manifestation of this purity, is safeguarding the person from impurity upon death, regardless of the fact that any human being-no matter how pious and obedient to Allah he is-becomes intensely impure upon passing away, making it obligatory to perform ablution (Ghusl) when touching his body. The dead person, himself, only becomes pure after being washed by others.  
  

 

Contrarily, the infallibles are purified before and after death. Al-Hassan Ibn Ubaid said in Al-Wasa'el: 
  

 

I wrote to Imam Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and asked him:  
  

 

"Did the Commander of the Faithful perform ablution (Ghusl) after abluting the Messenger of Allah (S) upon his death?" 
  

 

His answer was:  
  

 

"The Prophet was pure and safeguarded all impurities; yet the Commander of the Faithful Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã did so and this became a customary practice (Sunnah)." 
  

 

We will elaborate on Fatima's ablution at the end of the book if Allah wills.  

References: Bihar al Anwar Volume 10.



 


I have given you my explanation regarding verse 4:59 a million times please refute it then we will move forward.

I gave you a Refutation Many times, 
You never gave once Single Proof from our books nor your 
Nor from any book or Tafsir Which Proves your point.


 


_________________________________________________________

In addition you do not need, to be an Imam To become Infallible, its Clear,
Who Ahlulbayt (s) are, its Clear Allah Removed All "Rajis" (sins) from them.
According to us Followers Of Ahlulbayt (s) the 12 Imams, Prophet, and Fatima are Infallible.


(salam   

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Okay okay.....

This is getting silly now. We will come back to the verse 33:33. Lets get back to the original debate(ulil amr).

So il give you my explanation then you give me yours and then we will leave it to everybody to decide which makes more sense.

Verse4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

1. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you

So here we are told to obey Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) which all the ummah agree on is unconditional. Then we are told to obey ulil amr which we differ on regarding obedience.

We move on...

2. And if you differ in anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger,

Now here is where we get "confused". Now Allah says if you differ in anything. So now you tell me if ulil amr was appointed then why has Allah (swt) not said refer it to ulil amr??? Why has Allah (swt) said refer to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh)???? Why did Allah (swt) not say refer it to ulil amr??? If he was appointed.

My belief is that the reason we "differ" with each other is because the ulil amr is not appointed and his judgement could be wrong so that is why Allah (swt) has restricted it only to Allah ( swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

Also in letter 53 nahj ul balagah ali a.s has said that refer to Allah (swt) through the quran and refer to the prophet (pbuh) through his sunnah obviously the quran being most important.

We also have issues with ulil amr because Allah (swt) has not told us that the ulul amr will be an imam, whereas Allah (swt) has said that the prophet (pbuh) is the apostle of Allah (swt). There is not one single precise verse where Allah (swt) has said that he will send imams after prophet (pbuh) even though its an usul (according to shia).

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Nahj ul balagah letter 53

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter53.htm

The part which I'm pointing out is in the 43rd paragraph of the actual letter.

When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide. The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the CLEAR and EXPLICIT orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his orders about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.

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statement:

So here we are told to obey Allah and messenger (s) which all the ummah agree on is unconditional. Then we are told to obey ulil amr which we differ on regarding obedience.

 

The verse does not say If We differ In Uli Al amr, it just mentions everything we differ in, and does not Go Directly at Uli Al amr.

(1) Who are the Uli al amr at the time of the prophet (s)?
(2) If You mention who they are at the time of the prophet (s), can you 
Please tell me Where the prophet (s) says Obey them? and if so, how can
We differ on this issue?

 

 

Statement:

My belief is that the reason we "differ" with each other is because the ulil amr is not appointed and his judgement could be wrong so that is why Allah  has restricted it only to Allah ( swt) and his messenger (s)

Makes not sense, as Explained above and even if your saying that We differ in Uli Al amr, we are told to Refer to the prophet (s) and Allah on THIS ISSUE (ULi Al amr ), So are they? 


Statement:
Also in letter 53 nahj ul balagah ali a.s has said that refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì through the quran and refer to the prophet (s)
 through his sunnah obviously the quran being most important.

I explained this Earlier? Where is the proper Reply?


 

 

 

Whats ver Surpising is that you did not state the Whole Lettter: Here is the Full Letter ( please Stop Quoting things Out of Context ) In additon I could not Fine the Paragraph Which You have stated
First and Formost:

(1) Imam Ali (s) Told Him To Refer back to The Quran and the Orders of the prohet (s).
(2) I told you How Can We Refer To the prophet Entirely as a person, Since in the World today We Still have issues.
(3) after the Death of the prophet he left two Khalifas: A) Ahlulbayt B.) Quran. Explain to me How we must obey both.
(4) if Imam Ali (s)  appointed Malik Al Ashtar as the governer of Eygpt. Why did he not do Shura? Why did he Appoint him?
(5) again no sense in what you stated. Merely Basless.
(6) if he is saying Obey the prophet, then that means Obey Ali (s) as Proven from Mustadrak Al Hakim ( your Book) in Appointing a Successor (page 8-12) I presume.
(7) Why did Malik al Ashtar Take Orders from Imam Ali (s)? I thought Abu Bakr is the Khalifa? 

 

 In addition If he is Told to Refer back to the messenger (s) can you please tell me how? 
And if he is Told to Refer back to the Book of Allah (quran), Then It Will say in the Quran We have made a Warner an guide for each nation.
Now the prophet made clear he is the Warner and Ali is the guide.


Statement:

We also have issues with ulil amr because Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has not told us that the ulul amr will be an imam, whereas Allah has said that the prophet (s) is the apostle of Allah . There is not one single precise verse where Allah has said that he will send imams after prophet (s) even though its an usul 

 

Therefore Uli Al amr is not Abu Bakr. 
And In Refutation to this, please look above.


are you blind?

it The Verse Which says We have made a guide For All people/nations???????




 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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AMEEN

Wrong wrong wrong... You are wrong.

The main thing the prophet (pbuh) left behind as a guide was the quran which is still guiding us whereas your imam isn't. The quran is accessible whereas your imam isn't.

So you tell me who is a better guide??? Quran or an imam who is inaccessible??

The prophet (pbuh) also left behind his AHLE BAYT and when you can tell me why AHLE BAYT is restricted to twelve only then we can talk.

You point out the verse of purification. Well answer me this why does Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì say he "intends" to "purify" them if they were born pure??

It's a bit like Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì saying he "intends" to make paradise when really he already has.

Imagine there was a verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says he "intends" on making paradise. The Christian missionaries would slaughter is saying hold up we thought that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has already made paradise so why is he saying he "intends" to make it???

We would get slaughtered by them.

The process in which abu bakr was chosen was wrong and it wasn't shura but the outcome was good because abu bakr r.a was a good man.i don't know which part of that is confusing!!!

You talk about AHLE sunnah like you know us.... YOU DON'T.

We believe we are allowed to fight the ulil amr just like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought the ulil amr of his time and we hold him in high esteem for his revolt because the ulil amr was corrupt.

Now maybe you can tell me why bibi fatimah r.a was infallible??

Don't say because she was from AHLE BAYT because I know this. I want to know what was the reason behind her infallibility??

The imams were made "infallible" (according to shia) because Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì chose them as his representatives on earth but why bibi fatimah r.a???

She wasn't going to become an infallible imam so what is the purpose of her infallibilityerate .

Salaam brother. You come out with a lot of points and questions, which are unrelated to the subject we are discussing and you totally disregard the points and questions that, you should be commenting on and answering. You probably do this to gain lost weight in this discussion, so you can save yourself from commenting on points mentioned and answering questions that are put forward to you. I would say a deliberate and desperate attempt, by you, to derail the subject.

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