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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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Where does it say that, we shouldn't refer to the Ulul Amre if he is appointed???? What is the point of the appointment, if you can't refer to him???How and in what would you obey him, if

You can't refer to him???

ou have to prove

Ahhhhhh....... Now you're getting desperate brother.

You've got to bring harder evidence than that!!

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During the Prophet's (pbuh) time people (like Abu Bakar, Umar, Usmaan etc) started to get influenced by Muhammad (pbuh) and started moving towards Islam and converting. How ever their parents were still Mushrik or Kafir. The parents tried to use their parenthood, to somehow get their children back to their forefathers religion and ways. So they tried to preasure and force their children back by using obedience towards the parents and that obedience should be a must for the children. It's to stop this why the verse was revealed that, " do not obey your parents in the following situation and condition. These days tell me, does this part of the verse apply to us??? Which parents would tell their children, to violate any part of the Sharia law??? For Gods sake, do some homework on verses before shooting off left, right and center. The part of the verses, fa in thanazathum etc and do not obey your parents etc, have conditions and circumstances attached to them and they have justification and reasoning.

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like i said before, and if you disagree, differ, quarrel or argue, (fee) meaning, with in this and (shayin) meaning, over anything, then refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), meaning, do not continue with the disagreement and difference, do not continue quarreling and arguing, do not take matters into your own hands, do not separate from each other, do not be the cause of division among yourselves and do not rebel or cause rebellion against your UlulAmre but continue to obey the Ulul Amre by referring the matter of disagreement back towards you know who??? And the only way this can be done is, that the Ulul Amre has to be infallible. And to be infallible you must have to be pure in every respect, way and manner. And there most certainly are a group of people , who have been purified to the state of purification, specifically for the purpose of being the Ulul Amre, mawla and the wali of the people but certain companions had obviously other plans, based on hidden agendas after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh).

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like i said before, and if you disagree, differ, quarrel or argue, (fee) meaning, with in this and (shayin) meaning, over anything, then refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), meaning, do not continue with the disagreement and difference' do not continue quarreling and arguing, do not take matters into your own hands, do not separate from each other, do not be the cause of division among yourselves and do not rebel or cause rebellion against your UlulAmre but continue to obey the Ulul Amre by referring the matter of disagreement back towards you know who??? And the only way this can be done is, that the Ulul Amre has to be infallible. And to be infallible you must have to be pure in every respect, way and manner.And there most certainly are a group of people , who have been purified to the state of purification, specifically for the purpose of being the Ulul Amre, mawla and the wali of the people but certain companions had obviously other plans, based on hidden agendas after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh).

Surah 4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT ADD YOUR OWN WORDS IN. ITS NOT CLEVER AND DEFINATELY NOT FUNNY.

DON'T YOU THINK IT'S TIME YOU GAVE IT UP AND ADMITTED LIKE A MAN THAT SURAH 4:59 IS NOT FOR IMAMATE.

GO AND FIND ANOTHER VERSE!!!!!

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My dear brother just the truth, you are the one, who is going in circles, chasing your own tail and accusing others. You are deliberately avoiding my questions and you are pointlessly hopping and skipping from one place to the other. The net is closing in on us??? It's more like the rope on your neck is tightening due to your arrogance and ignorance and the only way you can loosen that rope, is by accepting reality and facts.


Surah 4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT ADD YOUR OWN WORDS IN. ITS NOT CLEVER AND DEFINATELY NOT FUNNY.

DON'T YOU THINK IT'S TIME YOU GAVE IT UP AND ADMITTED LIKE A MAN THAT SURAH 4:59 IS NOT FOR IMAMATE.

GO AND FIND ANOTHER VERSE!!!!!

Excuse me??? Admit and go astray like you??? I don't think so. Why are you so scared to answer my questions??? What is the point of the Ulul Amre and their position, if they are to be disregarded and everything has to be referred back to the top bosses??? How and in what way does one obey the Ulul Amre, if everything has to be referred back to the top bosses??? How would obedience be carried out towards the Ulul Amre, if every single thing has to be referred back to the top bosses??? Refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Then what??? How are Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) exactly going to resolve the disagreement and difference??? In what way??? Please don't be a chicken or a duck and build up the strength and courage to answer the questions.

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My dear brother just the truth, you are the one, who is going in circles, chasing your own tail and accusing others. You are deliberately avoiding my questions and you are pointlessly hopping and skipping from one place to the other. The net is closing in on us??? It's more like the rope on your neck is tightening due to your arrogance and ignorance and the only way you can loosen that rope, is by accepting reality and facts.

Excuse me??? Admit and go astray like you??? I don't think so. Why are you so scared to answer my questions??? What is the point of the Ulul Amre and their position, if they are to be disregarded and everything has to be referred back to the top bosses??? How and in what way does one obey the Ulul Amre, if everything has to be referred back to the top bosses??? How would obedience be carried out towards the Ulul Amre, if every single thing has to be referred back to the top bosses??? Refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Then what??? How are Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) exactly going to resolve the disagreement and difference??? In what way??? Please don't be a chicken or a duck and build up the strength and courage to answer the questions.

Ok bro... I will now carry on this discussion with rasu, lets see if he can come up with something better

Allah HAFIZ

Sunnis claim that 'Ulul Amr' are people like (Ghaddafi and Asad) yet we see them (Sunnis) revolt against them. lol

My dear brother this is not true. If you studied our aqidah properly you wil know why.

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Ok bro... I will now carry on this discussion with rasu, lets see if he can come up with something better

Allah HAFIZ

My dear brother this is not true. If you studied our aqidah properly you wil know why.

 

 

Show us proof of that you just claimed. 

(salam)

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THE ISLAM HISTORY AND AMEEN

listen my dears the ulil amr for us has conditions and if he does not meet them he can kiss his throne good bye

You want to know why??

..... Because zayd ibn ali a.s fought the ulil amr of his time and was supported by abu hanifa.

 

Uli al amr are the 12 Imams. and the Khalifas after the prophet.

Zayed Ibn Ali? Which one are you talking about?

if your talking about the Brother of Imam al Baqir (s), Then he is the one fought against the oppression

of your Khalifas. 

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Salaam brother the Islam history. You are putting some excellent information forward, straight from the Ahle Sunnah authentic books. He just doesn't know what to do, this is why he has turned to constant denial, without any explanation and reasoning. He is then becoming sarcastic and abusive, just so he can turn the discussion into an arguement, so he can gain some weight and get some of his lost confidence back. Keep it up bro Islam history. Great work.

Ulul Amre for you has conditions???? Ok, so for crying out loud once again, what and where are those conditions?????????

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Salaam brother the Islam history. You are putting some excellent information forward, straight from the Ahle Sunnah authentic books. He just doesn't know what to do, this is why he has turned to constant denial, without any explanation and reasoning. He is then becoming sarcastic and abusive, just so he can turn the discussion into an arguement, so he can gain some weight and get some of his lost confidence back. Keep it up bro Islam history. Great work.

Ulul Amre for you has conditions???? Ok, so for crying out loud once again, what and where are those conditions?????????

 

Thank you brother/Sister Ameen, I try my best, to be honest, even My self I have gained a little of knowledge of Arguing with people on these issue, but my concern is that they don't seem to "like" what is being put forward to them. What I do not understand is if your going to constantly deny my opinions and Evidences, there is no use of you asking the Question?, Why are you here in the first place? Troll maybe? Who knows. But to be Honest Alhamdeollah Even though We get insults on our Mazhab and so on, I still respect everyone here, because I follow the School of Ahlul-bayt, And I hope with my heart that everyone is guided on the straight path. The Winner of this, is the one who learns from what he was or is given in these circumstances, and the loser is the one, Who will always Stop at Questioning His own beliefs and denies others.

and by the Way @Ameen I liked your Examples on the "Real meaning of Wali", I gained a thing or two from some of yours, I really Thank you.

And May Allah Reward you and bless you, for your Efforts.

(salam)      

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Thank you brother/Sister Ameen, I try my best, to be honest, even My self I have gained a little of knowledge of Arguing with people on these issue, but my concern is that they don't seem to "like" what is being put forward to them. What I do not understand is if your going to constantly deny my opinions and Evidences, there is no use of you asking the Question?, Why are you here in the first place? Troll maybe? Who knows. But to be Honest Alhamdeollah Even though We get insults on our Mazhab and so on, I still respect everyone here, because I follow the School of Ahlul-bayt, And I hope with my heart that everyone is guided on the straight path. The Winner of this, is the one who learns from what he was or is given in these circumstances, and the loser is the one, Who will always Stop at Questioning His own beliefs and denies others.

and by the Way @Ameen I liked your Examples on the "Real meaning of Wali", I gained a thing or two from some of yours, I really Thank you.

And May Allah Reward you and bless you, for your Efforts.

(salam)

My god I don't believe this!!! You both couldn't answer me straight yet you're claiming victory!! You know what I regret getting into a conversation with you two. Seriously what is it with you two.

Right here we go.

Lets put all the other threads to a side for now and us three discuss ulil amr. We will go back to them threads when we reach some sort of agreement. ISLAMIC history I can wait til after ulil amr to see your thread regarding prophets minor mistakes.

What do you two say??

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My god I don't believe this!!! You both couldn't answer me straight yet you're claiming victory!! You know what I regret getting into a conversation with you two. Seriously what is it with you two.

Right here we go.

ALL IM ASKING IS THAT IF THE ULIL AMR HAS THE SAME STATUS AS Allah AND HIS BLESSED MESSENGER THEN WHY SHOULDN'T WE REFER TO HIM.

 

 

Again I think the Audience Will be the judge of that.

Concerning the Question:

No doubt Allah is in the first position and he must be obeyed,

No doubt that the messenger of Allah Should be obeyed ( He Is infallible after All: If you do not believe he is, then there is no use in Arguing with you.)

And Uli Am amr Must be obeyed, Which Allah has Ordered us to, So My Question to you now is,

If the verse cam down in the time while the prophet was Life (pbuh), Then who were Ulu Al Amr?

And if the prophet Died (pbuh) how can we refer back to him?

(salam)

May Allah Guide you and me, Inshalla.

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Again I think the Audience Will be the judge of that.

Concerning the Question:

No doubt Allah is in the first position and he must be obeyed,

No doubt that the messenger of Allah Should be obeyed ( He Is infallible after All: If you do not believe he is, then there is no use in Arguing with you.)

And Uli Am amr Must be obeyed, Which Allah has Ordered us to, So My Question to you now is,

If the verse cam down in the time while the prophet was Life (pbuh), Then who were Ulu Al Amr?

And if the prophet Died (pbuh) how can we refer back to him?

(salam)

May Allah Guide you and me, Inshalla.

I will answer your questions but in your next reply please go step by step in the verse and explain each step and then I will do the sane.

1. During the life of the prophet (pbuh) the ulil amr were commanders etc etc

2. This question makes no sense

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1. Commanders that the prophet (pbuh) used to send to expeditions.

2. YOU SAID

And if the prophet Died how can we refer back to him?

MY ANSWER

You want a yes or no answer when this isn't a yes or no question. You asked how??

The answer is authentic hadith. Now you tell me what this verse means when it says refer back to messenger (pbuh).

Brother please run through verse 4:59 step by step then I will do the same.

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The question was " how do you refer back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) after the demise of the Messenger (pbuh)? " you said " the answer is authentic hadiths ", now there is a dispute here, which has been going on for sometime and that, who decides on which hadiths are authentic and which not??? To be continued.

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The question was " how do you refer back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) after the demise of the Messenger (pbuh)? " you said " the answer is authentic hadiths ", now there is a dispute here, which has been going on for sometime and that, who decides on which hadiths are authentic and which not??? To be continued.

Ok brother you tell me "how you refer back to Allah and messenger"??

Brother please run through verse 4:59 step by step then I will do the same.

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The Sunnah of the Rasool (pbuh) has two parts: the verbal side and the practical side. History tells us that the Sunnah has severely been tampered and altered with. The Ahle Sunnah have labelled certain books authentic and use references from these books to back their claims but when the Ahle Tashee use references from the same books to back their claims then there seems to be a problem. So in such a chaotic situation, how is it possible to refer back to the Messenger (pbuh)???

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1. Commanders that the prophet (pbuh) used to send to expeditions.

2. YOU SAID

And if the prophet Died how can we refer back to him?

MY ANSWER

You want a yes or no answer when this isn't a yes or no question. You asked how??

The answer is authentic hadith. Now you tell me what this verse means when it says refer back to messenger (pbuh).

Brother please run through verse 4:59 step by step then I will do the same.

(1) I Will Repeat My self Again, What do you mean by Who he sends Expeditions? 

The prophet (pbuh) sent many people to spread the Religion of Islam, So How must we obey them?

First you say Commanders, and now your referring to Messengers.

Please Identity the  Uli al Amr by Name. And Stop making up non sense.

(2) if your saying That We refer back to the messenger by Hadith, Then you Accept some of Non sesne in Bukhair which goes against the Quran ( if you like I can post a Whole page of pathetic Hadiths from Bukhari)

(3) and if your basing it on Entire Hadith, then Why in the Islamic World today, we have so many Fatwas, and at the end of each one it says "Allaho Al em" Meaning only god knows.

Yet today, We even Today there are things Which Have not been Identified as Haram and Halal because we do not have enough Evidence even with the Ahadith, We cannot Interpret  the Quran Fully. 

As the verse Mentions:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ 

 

 

 Yusuf Ali

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding  

Ok brother you tell me "how you refer back to Allah and messenger"??

Brother please run through verse 4:59 step by step then I will do the same.

Just say I cannot answer this Question.

So I can Give you a proper Explanation.

If you cannot Answer the Above.

(salam)

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In the situation of disagreement, one should refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), to get a solution. Now referring back would be, according to you, referring to hadiths, in which the Ummah have a severe disagreement to begin with. Now how do you resolve a disagreement, by referring back to another disagreement (hadiths)??? How do you resolve a disagreement, by pulling yourself out of one dispute and landing straight into another (hadiths)?????????????

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In the situation of disagreement, one should refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), to get a solution. Now referring back would be, according to you, referring to hadiths, in which the Ummah have a severe disagreement to begin with. Now how do you resolve a disagreement, by referring back to another disagreement (hadiths)??? How do you resolve a disagreement, by pulling yourself out of one dispute and landing straight into another (hadiths)?????????????

You tell me what we should do?? Please my brother

(1) I Will Repeat My self Again, What do you mean by Who he sends Expeditions?

The prophet (pbuh) sent many people to spread the Religion of Islam, So How must we obey them?

First you say Commanders, and now your referring to Messengers.

Please Identity the Uli al Amr by Name. And Stop making up non sense.

(2) if your saying That We refer back to the messenger by Hadith, Then you Accept some of Non sesne in Bukhair which goes against the Quran ( if you like I can post a Whole page of pathetic Hadiths from Bukhari)

(3) and if your basing it on Entire Hadith, then Why in the Islamic World today, we have so many Fatwas, and at the end of each one it says "Allaho Al em" Meaning only god knows.

Yet today, We even Today there are things Which Have not been Identified as Haram and Halal because we do not have enough Evidence even with the Ahadith, We cannot Interpret the Quran Fully.

As the verse Mentions:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

Yusuf Ali

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding

Just say I cannot answer this Question.

So I can Give you a proper Explanation.

If you cannot Answer the Above.

(salam)

YOU SAID

Just say I cannot answer this Question.

So I can Give you a proper Explanation.

If you cannot Answer the Above.

MY ANSWER

Finally..... please Proceed

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Salaam dear brother. Before we move ahead with this discussion, there is something very important, which i would like to put forward. I'm not here to discuss with a mind set. I'm not here just to protect and defend one school of faith and then look for any lame excuse i can find to degrade the others. I'm here with an open heart and a wide mind to learn about others, to increase my knowledge and information and to get to know the truth more better and to promote it. I'm not arrogant and ignorant. Anything which is based on reality and facts and is according to sense and logic and seems natural, i will accept it, no matter where it comes from. I will go by the best explanation and the most understandable reasoning, that fits. From there on wallaho a'alam, Allah knows better. Because brother all i am concerned about, is me and my grave, along with the here after. That's all that matters to me.

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Salaam dear brother. Before we move ahead with this discussion, there is something very important, which i would like to put forward. I'm not here to discuss with a mind set. I'm not here just to protect and defend one school of faith and then look for any lame excuse i can find to degrade the others. I'm here with an open heart and a wide mind to learn about others, to increase my knowledge and information and to get to know the truth more better and to promote it. I'm not arrogant and ignorant. Anything which is based on reality and facts and is according to sense and logic and seems natural, i will accept it, no matter where it comes from. I will go by the best explanation and the most understandable reasoning, that fits. From there on wallaho a'alam, Allah knows better. Because brother all i am concerned about, is me and my grave, along with the here after. That's all that matters to me.

Salams brother firstly if like to say that our concerns regarding the grave and the hereafter are the same. After all it's what we are striving for doesn't matter whether you're sunni shia wahabbi etc etc.

I'm not here to convert anybody, to be honest I think it's wrong of me to be on here in the first place. The Internet should be the last place we come to, to get ISLAMIC knowledge. There is always garbage on the Internet which we unfortunately take on the chin and blindly accept.

The best place to get islamic knowledge is by going directly to the ulema of both sects sitting down and going through everything step by step.

Brother these forums in my humble opinion have made matters a lot worse rather than better. I honestly before joining shia chat did not realise how much shia hated abu bakr umar uthman.

One could easily accuse me of being blind in the past because although I have shia cousins they never insulted the companions (maybe out of respect I don't know)..

All my life before joining shia chat I thought that the only difference was that you wanted ali a.s as a leader and we wanted abu bakr r.a. I didn't even know that you believed ali a.s was appointed.

Anyway I've come to a conclusion and that is, that after the ulil amr discussion between us three brothers I'm going to leave this forum and never return.

I have chosen a new route and that is to go directly to the ulema of both sects. At the end of the day it all boils down to this:

We don't know what will become of us whether we are sunni shia wahabbi etc. I think it's best to follow what your heart says and on the day of judgement leave it to Allah (swt).

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Salams brother firstly if like to say that our concerns regarding the grave and the hereafter are the same. After all it's what we are striving for doesn't matter whether you're sunni shia wahabbi etc etc. 

 

Of course with no doubt.

 

 

 

I'm not here to convert anybody, to be honest I think it's wrong of me to be on here in the first place. The Internet should be the last place we come to, to get ISLAMIC knowledge. There is always garbage on the Internet which we unfortunately take on the chin and blindly accept.

 

Yes there is Many Garbage on the Internet, But when I was Showing you those scanned proof books and Hadiths, I actually went through the Trouble of looking for the book printed PDF Form and picturing Each proof of Hadith.

 

 

 

The best place to get islamic knowledge is by going directly to the ulema of both sects sitting down and going through everything step by step.

 

If they are not Bias, towards other sects. Not problem.

 

 

 

Brother these forums in my humble opinion have made matters a lot worse rather than better. I honestly before joining shia chat did not realise how much shia hated abu bakr umar uthman.

 

 

because you deny every Crime they have committed When even, Showing you so much, proof, in your case its All garbage because Unable to accept and Denial of proof.

 

 

 

One could easily accuse me of being blind in the past because although I have shia cousins they never insulted the companions (maybe out of respect I don't know)..

Give me, One phrase were I Cursed in My answers? please give me one, Quote at least one. 

All I did is show your Evidence of their crimes with Clear Authentication. Is that Considered Insulting the Companions?

 

 

 

All my life before joining shia chat I thought that the only difference was that you wanted ali a.s as a leader and we wanted abu bakr r.a. I didn't even know that you believed ali a.s was appointed.

 

Whats Really Sad, is that the Amount of ahadith that the prophet (pbuh) said: "that Ali Wali of every believer After me" , "HE IS THE KHALIFA AFTER ME", and you keep Ignoring it, due to desire or belief that Abu Bakr is in a higher Status than Ali (as), when in reality We both Know Who is greater, Just like Whats Written on the Sword of Imam Ali (as):

" NO MAN, ONLY ALI, NOT SWORD, ONLY ZU'AL'FEQA'AR!"

   

 

 

Anyway I've come to a conclusion and that is, that after the ulil amr discussion between us three brothers I'm going to leave this forum and never return. 

 

 

May Allah Guide you and guide me, If I said anything harmful to you, or Out of context, please Forgive me.

 

 

 

I have chosen a new route and that is to go directly to the ulema of both sects. At the end of the day it all boils down to this:

  

Yes I advise you to speak to both Sides on these issues, 

And than do some Research about it, and Pray to Allah

For Guidance. 

Inshalla.

 

 

 

 

We don't know what will become of us whether we are sunni shia wahabbi etc. I think it's best to follow what your heart says and on the day of judgement leave it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. 

 

 

No brother its best to follow what you find through your Journey of Truth.

your Heart and My Heart are not the Deciders of Fate and they Will not be the one 

​Held accountable on the Day of Judgement, but it Will be our Brains and How We used them.

and than our Hearts Will come next.

I say this One more time.

I am sorry if You felt offended, Please Do not hate me,

I Would not Want it, brother, Yes in Some of My Responses,

I might seem a bit harsh, but Putting forward proof is not Harsh.

I will ask you Again to please forgive me my dear brother.

(salam)  

 

Concerning the verse:

The uli Al Amr are Imam Ali (as), in the time of the prophet.

And When we are told "IF WE DIFFER", It simple means on the case of

differing in Religious issues that are Islamic, so The prophet (pbuh) has passed Away, So who do we refer to?

the answer is Simple, its Ahlulbayt (as). How? because the prophet (pbuh) said, I have left you two things in you ( his Ummah)

which if you hold on to them you will never go astray, The book Of Allah and his Ahlulbayt (as), 

So how do we refer to Ahlulbayt (as)? Read there lives, read their journeys, Read their Sayings and by that I mean the Twelve Imams Also in this case,

And Compare them to the Rulers (Kholafa) Who sit on the Throne.

Who is Guiding us now? 

Imam Mahdi (A.F),

How?

he is Waiting for the Command of Allah.

and he to also, Prayers for us.

But how can he be Alive all these years?

Well Like prophets such as Moses and Noah, (as)

Who were able to live hundreds of years. 

And Like Prophet Idris, (as)  Who Hid Away from his people for two years and came back.

Like prophet Al Khuduir (s), Who is Alive at the moment and is Also Hidden.

So there is no Excuses to Why the Imam is not Alive as).

And as I proved Through Sunni Narrations,. He is from Ahlulbayt (s).

(salam)

 

Ask And I will go deeper.

 

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@JUSTHETRUTH

I highly Recommend you to See a Sunni Alem ( Imam of a Mosq)

and than See a Shia Alem Imam of the Mosq. Its better that way trust me.

and you Search for truth might Get to a conclusion.

May Allah guide us All.

Inshalla.

(salam)

I'm sorry for insulting you in the other posts. I intent to take your advice regarding visiting alims from both sides. May Allah (swt) bless you my dear brother. I'm writing my last and final reply and explaining to you what I believe for now. Maybe the shia alim will convince me or maybe he won't. You never know what the future holds for any of us.

Either way may Allah guide this whole ummah inshallah. My dear brother I also advice you to leave this website and go and visit alims on both sides, that way neither if us will have an excuse on the day when man will be in a state of shock and horror and only the ones who followed guidance will be successful.

My last reply will be with you very soon.

May Allah (swt) bless you me dear brother and guide us all.

Ameen

Summa ameen

Assalamu alaykum

Edited by Just the truth
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Salams brother firstly if like to say that our concerns regarding the grave and the hereafter are the same. After all it's what we are striving for doesn't matter whether you're sunni shia wahabbi etc etc.

I'm not here to convert anybody, to be honest I think it's wrong of me to be on here in the first place. The Internet should be the last place we come to, to get ISLAMIC knowledge. There is always garbage on the Internet which we unfortunately take on the chin and blindly accept.

The best place to get islamic knowledge is by going directly to the ulema of both sects sitting down and going through everything step by step.

Brother these forums in my humble opinion have made matters a lot worse rather than better. I honestly before joining shia chat did not realise how much shia hated abu bakr umar uthman.

One could easily accuse me of being blind in the past because although I have shia cousins they never insulted the companions (maybe out of respect I don't know)..

All my life before joining shia chat I thought that the only difference was that you wanted ali a.s as a leader and we wanted abu bakr r.a. I didn't even know that you believed ali a.s was appointed.

Anyway I've come to a conclusion and that is, that after the ulil amr discussion between us three brothers I'm going to leave this forum and never return.

I have chosen a new route and that is to go directly to the ulema of both sects. At the end of the day it all boils down to this:

We don't know what will become of us whether we are sunni shia wahabbi etc. I think it's best to follow what your heart says and on the day of judgement leave it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Salaam brother. Don't direct this to yourself. This is a general statement. It doesn't matter which Islamic sect you belong to, our concerns regarding the grave and here after aren't the same. If they were then, no one would be looking at the other as having an ill faith or belief, calling the other kafir or even considering them wajib ul qatal, openly calling for their murder or even committing it. Yes, we all belong to a different sect/group, school of thought within Islam and our thought, opinion and point of view is somewhat different than the other. We are all Muslims but it's a shame we don't all see ourselves this way. People have differences and they are always going to be there but it's not those differences that is the problem, it's our attitude and behaviour towards each other, it's how we look and treat each other, it's our intentions about each other and what we think of each other because of those differences, that is the problem.

 

Internet is a good source of information and knowledge as well as bad. It depends on how you take and handle it, then what you do with it. Discussions and debates make you get to know and learn about the other, as well as giving you the ability to think and look in to yourself, as long as the attitude is positive and the manner is pleasant.

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Salaam brother just the truth. There are alot of things out there, which are based on both, truthness as well as falsehood. It is our job to distinguish between, what is right and what is wrong. When one of our loved one, be it family, relative, friend, ally, companion, guardian, leader, supporter etc is wrong then, we just become too blind based on loyalty towards them that, we use what ever excuse we can find, to protect and defend them and just make them look good. Unfortunately we go with where our loyalties lie, rather than where the truth lies. I see that you have alot of misunderstanding about Ahle Tashee. I have turned towards all three Ulama, Ahle Tashee, Ahle Sunnah and Ahle Hadees, concerning various matters and you can tell to some extent by how they reply and compare that reply with each other. What makes sense and what doesn't. What is logical and what is not. Who has given a satisfactory answer and who hasn't. Their body language and confidence, when they are replying, all play a key role in searching for the truth and getting to the bottom of things.

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I'm sorry for insulting you in the other posts. I intent to take your advice regarding visiting alims from both sides. May Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì bless you my dear brother. I'm writing my last and final reply and explaining to you what I believe for now. Maybe the shia alim will convince me or maybe he won't. You never know what the future holds for any of us.

Either way may Allah guide this whole ummah inshallah. My dear brother I also advice you to leave this website and go and visit alims on both sides, that way neither if us will have an excuse on the day when man will be in a state of shock and horror and only the ones who followed guidance will be successful.

My last reply will be with you very soon.

May Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì bless you me dear brother and guide us all.

Ameen

Summa ameen

Assalamu alaykum

No infact I must say sorry for being so Forceful, I reread my Replies and I felt bad brother,

perhaps Forgive me and May Allah Reward you for doing so. I hope I have shed some light into your heart,

perhaps Question The reasons Why you and I are in these Particular sects?. So My Many thanks to you.

also maybe you should look at it from a person Who Converted Perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQkVzrOcj6g

and part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkB3kp6X0WQ

by the away, AhlulbaytTV is really a good channel.

(salam)

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