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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Yeah I agree, I started Continuing it again on "Appointing An Imam" Post. 

The reason Why I stopped for a While is because he Ignored Some of the Stances I gave him, and claimed it was no true, 

yet I even gave Scanned paper proof. Well at the end of the day, the one who looses is the one who didn't Want to learn anything.

 

Btw, I'm Continuing on with the thread "Appointing an Imam" Again =)

Ignoring you, constant denial, going off topic, starting another thread before finishing the previous, asking but not answering, asking a question in response to a question, accusing and abusing, putting words in some bodies mouth etc, these are some of the techniques and tactics used on H.C.Y. Forum. Anyways, keep it up. Believe me people are watching. One doesn't know who's actually had the last laugh.

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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Ignoring you, constant denial, going off topic, starting another thread before finishing the previous, asking but not answering, asking a question in response to a question, accusing and abusing, putting words in some bodies mouth etc, these are some of the techniques and tactics used on H.C.Y. Forum. Anyways, keep it up. Believe me people are watching. One doesn't know who's actually had the last laugh.

 

Agreed. It seems to always be that way =)

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According to the Ahle Sunnah the Ulul Amre is actually, the person who is leading the country. The leader of the country (hakim-e-waqth). It doesn't matter if he is the prime minister, president, king or any other type of ruler. If the leader of the country is corrupt, sinner, vagabond or anything else, as long as he doesn't tamper or alter Shariath then, one must not rebel against their leader. Why??? Because this weakness Islamic nations.

Now Bashar Al Assad is the leader of Syria, basically the Ulul Amre of the Syrian nation. What is his crime??? Why is there a rebellion against him??? And most astonishing, the leading Ahle Sunnah clerics in the middle east have issued a fatwa and have urged, not only the Syrian people but also others in the Middle East, to do jihad against the Syrian leadership.

My question is to the Ahle Sunnah clerics, is your belief and faith just verbal and words only???

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I have replied to your question many times over but it seems to me that, your the one whos going in circles and accusing me of it. Anyways, here we go again!

Allah has early said " Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also the Ulul Amre from among you ". Now i don't know if you've bothered to look up the meaning of obey in the dictionary. Obey means, to submit and submit is from submission and this means, absolute and total surrender.

Also Allah has straight forwardly said " Obey the Ulul Amre ". Allah didn't put down any condition or lay down any circumstances. If he has or i'm missing something here then, please enlighten me about what those conditions and circumstances are.

Allah next says " And if you disagree ", here Allah is telling you of a situation that, if you find yourself in this situation (disagreement) then, the following applies. If you don't find yourself in this situation (disagreement) then, it is obvious my friend that, the following does not apply.

Allah next says " fee-shay-inn " meaning, on anything within this. If Allah said " ala-kule-shay-inn ", then this would mean, on everything. For example Allah has said " zalikal-kithabo-la-raiba-fee ", meaning, this is that book, there is no fault WITHIN THIS. As you can see " fee " has been used, meaning, within this.

In other words " And if you disagree on anything within this ", within this meaning, about the announcement that has been made, the message that has been delivered. If there is any confusion, misunderstanding or doubt about this or

regarding or concerning the Ulul Amre, then in such a case only and not in every case or not in anything, what do we do??? " Refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger ".

Only in such a case/matter/thing, not in every case/matter/thing. In all of the rest case/matter/things you refer to and obey the Ulul Amre. Otherwise if every case/matter/thing has to be referred back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, what is the point of the Ulul Amre???? What is the need of the Ulul Amre??? What is the position of the Ulul Amre??? What is the point of the Ulul Amre??? And most of all, how would you obey the Ulul Amre??? You obey someone in some case, matter or thing. So if everything has to be referred back then, in what or which case, matter or thing are you going to obey and show obedience towards the Ulul Amre in???

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I have replied to your question many times over but it seems to me that, your the one whos going in circles and accusing me of it. Anyways, here we go again!

Allah has early said " Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also the Ulul Amre from among you ". Now i don't know if you've bothered to look up the meaning of obey in the dictionary. Obey means, to submit and submit is from submission and this means, absolute and total surrender.

Also Allah has straight forwardly said " Obey the Ulul Amre ". Allah didn't put down any condition or lay down any circumstances. If he has or i'm missing something here then, please enlighten me about what those conditions and circumstances are.

Allah next says " And if you disagree ", here Allah is telling you of a situation that, if you find yourself in this situation (disagreement) then, the following applies. If you don't find yourself in this situation (disagreement) then, it is obvious my friend that, the following does not apply.

Allah next says " fee-shay-inn " meaning, on anything within this. If Allah said " ala-kule-shay-inn ", then this would mean, on everything. For example Allah has said " zalikal-kithabo-la-raiba-fee ", meaning, this is that book, there is no fault WITHIN THIS. As you can see " fee " has been used, meaning, within this.

In other words " And if you disagree on anything within this ", within this meaning, about the announcement that has been made, the message that has been delivered. If there is any confusion, misunderstanding or doubt about this or

regarding or concerning the Ulul Amre, then in such a case only and not in every case or not in anything, what do we do??? " Refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger ".

Only in such a case/matter/thing, not in every case/matter/thing. In all of the rest case/matter/things you refer to and obey the Ulul Amre. Otherwise if every case/matter/thing has to be referred back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, what is the point of the Ulul Amre???? What is the need of the Ulul Amre??? What is the position of the Ulul Amre??? What is the point of the Ulul Amre??? And most of all, how would you obey the Ulul Amre??? You obey someone in some case, matter or thing. So if everything has to be referred back then, in what or which case, matter or thing are you going to obey and show obedience towards the Ulul Amre in???

Bro now you're having a laugh. You're playing with the words. Nowhere in Arabic does it says "in this" you've just added your own bit. Pull out any quranic translation there is no words "in this". If you're going to start adding your own bits in then I refuse to talk to you.

All the way you've been ok with everything and now because you're cornered you're adding your own bits in "in this".

If this is your game then may Allah guide you

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Translate the following for me: " Zalikal-kithabo-la-raiba-fee ", what does " fee " mean here???

Now translate the following: " Fa-inn-nazathum-fee-shay-inn ", what does " fee" mean here???

Now i can also say the following " if this is your game then, may Allah also guide you ". Sunshine, if you disagree then, at least comment on my points by giving me your version, with a detailed explanation like i have, rather than constant denial then accusing me of getting it wrong and playing mr right then running off.

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Translate the following for me: " Zalikal-kithabo-la-raiba-fee ", what does " fee " mean here???

Now translate the following: " Fa-inn-nazathum-fee-shay-inn ", what does " fee" mean here???

Now i can also say the following " if this is your game then, may Allah also guide you ". Sunshine, if you disagree then, at least comment on my points by giving me your version, with a detailed explanation like i have, rather than constant denial then accusing me of getting it wrong and playing mr right then running off.

Lol... Me running away.. Never

Now fee shayin

If you look in your post you said " fee-shay-inn " meaning, on anything within this

Sorry you're wrong and you're using the words back to front, just so you can try and win. It's fee shayin and not shayin fee

If it said shayin fee then yea this means "anything in it"but the fee comes before the shayin and shayin means anything and fee can mean in or in it.

Get any translation of the quran literally any you want and show me what you've said??

fee-shay-inn " meaning, on anything within this

You've deliberately used the words back to front when you know very well it says fee shayin (in anything) and not shayin fee which would translate (anything in it).

YOU SAID

zalikal-kithabo-la-raiba-fee ", meaning, this is that book, there is no fault WITHIN THIS

YES THIS IS CORRECT BECAUSE THE FEE CONES AT THE END SO THAT'S OK

YOU SAID

Fa-inn-nazathum-fee-shay-inn ", what does " fee" mean here???

Il translate this for you word for word for arguments sake

Fa inn means "then if"

It's not "nazathum" it's THAnazathum so that's another mistake youve made itmeans "you disagree"

Fee meaning in or in it

And shayin means anything

Now go to any translation of the quran and see that in Arabic fee can mean "in" and it also means "in it" depending on which order it's used in and when it is used "sunshine".

So before you call me "sunshine" and accuse me of running away get your story straight.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY AND AMEEN.

Bro's we both can't be right. So you ask me a question regarding this verse and how I believe the ulil amr is not appointed??

Then we'll see if I reply back with an essay like you or run round in circles or i give you a straight up easy answer

 

THE ISLAMIC HISTORY AND AMEEN.

Bro's we both can't be right. So you ask me a question regarding this verse and how I believe the ulil amr is not appointed??

Then we'll see if I reply back with an essay like you or run round in circles or i give you a straight up easy answer

 

 

Inshalla (salam)

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Calm down matee and take it easy. Keep your shirt on and please don't start pulling your hair out. It's thanazathum and not nazathum. Yes ofcourse but it's not a mistake that i've made, it's just a typing error. Take a look at my previous posts. Did i say " nazathum " or " thanazathum??? The way in and the manner how you've mentioned this is, if i've committed the crime of the century and as though you've scored your first goal ever, in the champions league. Sunshine, is this a fault finding mission for you or a fact finding mission???? You've used the word win, in your post. Do you see this as some sort of game, where you either win or loose??? You're turning this, from a healthy discussion, into something else.

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Calm down matee and take it easy. Keep your shirt on and please don't start pulling your hair out. It's thanazathum and not nazathum. Yes ofcourse but it's not a mistake that i've made, it's just a typing error. Take a look at my previous posts. Did i say " nazathum " or " thanazathum??? The way in and the manner how you've mentioned this is, if i've committed the crime of the century and as though you've scored your first goal ever, in the champions league. Sunshine, is this a fault finding mission for you or a fact finding mission???? You've used the word win, in your post. Do you see this as some sort of game, where you either win or loose??? You're turning this, from a healthy discussion, into something else.

Sorry bro if it sounded harsh but you try to make me look stupid by sarcastically calling me "sunshine".

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You go through my posts and only answer those questions and comment on those points, that suit you. The rest you disregard or ignore. Why don't you give me a detailed answer, to all my questions and a full comment on all my points, with a thorough explanation???

I am not being sarcastic, just being friendly but if it disappoints you that much then, i wont use the word or anything similar. By the way, good discission.

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You go through my posts and only answer those questions and comment on those points, that suit you. The rest you disregard or ignore. Why don't you give me a detailed answer, to all my questions and a full comment on all my points, with a thorough explanation???

I am not being sarcastic, just being friendly but if it disappoints you that much then, i wont use the word or anything similar. By the way, good discission.

Assalamu alaykum

Ok brother I'm out at the moment and when I get home tonight I will right you a detailed answer. Regarding obey and all the other points you raised and yea I've actually enjoyed this discussion jazakallah brother

Salams

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Assalamu alaykum

Ok brother I'm out at the moment and when I get home tonight I will right you a detailed answer. Regarding obey and all the other points you raised and yea I've actually enjoyed this discussion jazakallah brother

Salams

 

 

(salam) 

No problem. 

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Assalamu alaykum

AMEEN AND ISLAM HISTORY

As promised I am below going to give my detailed answer. Inshallah.

Brothers we need to understand that we both can't be right so we need to get to the bottom of this blessed verse. Inshallah.

Now the main argument that brother AMEEN was using, was the word obey. Now this word if we look at it from one angle then indeed it means obedience unconditionally.

Now if we turn the tables we will see that Allah (swt) has also said we should obey our parents so what's going on??

When Allah (swt) says obey your parents are their any conditions??

Yes there are. We are only to obey our parents until they tell us to do something against sharia. So you see not every time Allah (swt) says obey does it mean obey and that's it no questions asked. I will use the quran to prove my example;

Surah 29:8

And We have enjoined upon man goodness to parents. But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them. To Me is your return, and I will inform you about what you used to do.

So here Allah (swt) says do not obey them (parents) so if he's saying do not obey them then that can only mean that we must have been obeying them.

So you see my brothers the word obey does not always mean that you must always unconditionally obe, except for Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh ) as we see;

Surah 3:32

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

Now here we are told but if they turn away then indeed Allah does not like the disbelievers.

So this verse tells us that disobeying Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh) is unconditional and one cannot call himself a believer until he obeys Allah (swt)and his messenger (pbuh).

So now we have confirmed the unconditional obedience to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh ) we now can move to the ulil amr.

Surah 4:59

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Right so at the start of the verse we are told obey Allah (swt) obey messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr.

So here we are told obey ulil amr but why??

Is he an appointed??

Is he infalliable??

Lets read on.

And if you disagree over anything

So we see if we disagree over anything

We read.....

refer it to Allah and the Messenger

So if you had an infallible imam "amongst you" then say you didn't agree with one of your friends regarding the number of prayers are in a day.

The first thing you would do is go to the ulil amr because you are told to obey him.

So now we're told that "obey ulil amr (according to shia who is appointed and infallible) so if obedience to ulil amr is unconditional ( as shia say) then we can't disagree with him.

So now we have to work out why Allah (swt) has said "if you differ refer to Allah (swt) and messenger ( pbuh) if the ulil amr is appointed and infallible and his obedience Is unconditional then surely we wouldn't be differing after the answer given by the ulil amr, after all the ulil amr (according to shia) is an appointed infallible who's purpose to be there is to guide the ummah.

There can only be one answer and that is the differing continued and reached a new level of differing with the ulil amr (don't forget I started this with disagreement between two friends).

So if the ulil amr had a right decision and unconditional obedience then under no circumstances would Allah ( swt) cut through the ulil amr and say refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger ( pbuh).

Why would Allah ( swt) appoint an infallible who's purpose is to be referred to then cut straight through him and say refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger (pbuh)?? What would be the beauty behind appointing an (ulil amr) if we still have to refer everything to Allah (swt) and messenger ( pbuh). (Quran and hadith).

So it's pretty obvious now that these two friends do not agree with the answer given to them by the ulil amr so Allah (swt) has given them a way out.... Refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh).

So since Allah (swt) has given them two friends the way out of refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger ( pbuh) where does this leave the authority of the appointed infallible imam?? He's just been put to one side!! So what's the point of him being appointed??

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

Also I find it rather funny how shia pen and al islam have only quoted half of surah 4:59!!

Obey Allah (swt) obey the messenger (pbuh) and the ulil amr

They know that the rest of the verse is a big fat slap in their faces so they deliberately leave the rest of the verse out and misguide people.

This is exactly why I tell you to not trust google too much my dear brother.

Visit well educated sunni and shia alims ask all your questions then make a decision, because shia pen and al islam lie and misguide and deliberately hide the truth.

http://en.shiapen.com/comprehensive/imamate/obeying-ulil-amr.html

http://www.al-islam.org/a-short-treatise-on-the-guardianship-of-the-jurist-mansour-leghaei/5.htm

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

Also I find it rather funny how shia pen and al islam have only quoted half of surah 4:59!!

Obey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì obey the messenger (pbuh) and the ulil amr

They know that the rest of the verse is a big fat slap in their faces so they deliberately leave the rest of the verse out and misguide people.

This is exactly why I tell you to not trust google too much my dear brother.

Visit well educated sunni and shia alims ask all your questions then make a decision, because shia pen and al islam lie and misguide and deliberately hide the truth.

http://en.shiapen.com/comprehensive/imamate/obeying-ulil-amr.html

http://www.al-islam.org/a-short-treatise-on-the-guardianship-of-the-jurist-mansour-leghaei/5.htm

 

 

*Face Palm*

I quoted the Whole Verse, 

And I explained it With a Hadith from the Ahlul-Sunnah books, and Investigated by Albani and Al-Ana'o'ot . *refer back* to (Appointing a Successor)

 

Don't Claim I trust google, you will find I even Acquired the books and provided you with a Full  Copies + Cover. 

Give me a Decent answer for post 118# on this Topic. 

 

Another Question, can you please tell me how we are to hold on to Ahlulbayt (s)?

 

(salam)

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Salaam brother, just the truth. Thanx for the reply. Very nicely put forward. This is all i expect from you, to promote a healthy discussion and a good debate. I am working at the moment but will be commenting on all of your points, especially the serious allegation of, deliberately lie to misguide people, regarding the Shia and how the second part of the verse (ulul amre), is a slap in their face.

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*Face Palm*

I quoted the Whole Verse,

And I explained it With a Hadith from the Ahlul-Sunnah books, and Investigated by Albani and Al-Ana'o'ot . *refer back* to (Appointing a Successor)

Don't Claim I trust google, you will find I even Acquired the books and provided you with a Full Copies + Cover.

Give me a Decent answer for post 118# on this Topic.

Another Question, can you please tell me how we are to hold on to Ahlulbayt (s)?

(salam)

Assalamu alaykum

Sorry brother you sound offended. I was only giving you some friendly advice and I said them websites quoted half a verse and not you. I know you've quoted a full verse my dear brother. You want to know:

"Another Question, can you please tell me how we are to hold on to Ahlulbayt (s)?"

MY ANSWER.

Well it can't be by making them leaders because bibi fatimah r.a is also mentioned as the AHLE BAYT, was she also an infallible imam??

I'm sorry brother but the posts arnt numbered what was the question?

Also please try to stick to the verse 4:59 and give a direct answer brother.

You and AMEEN will get your answers today for the other threads. I'm in the process of typing as we speak. May take a couple of hours because you have asked a lot questions.

Assalamu alaykum.

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Assalamu alaykum

Sorry brother you sound offended. I was only giving you some friendly advice and I said them websites quoted half a verse and not you. I know you've quoted a full verse my dear brother. You want to know:

"Another Question, can you please tell me how we are to hold on to Ahlulbayt (s)?"

MY ANSWER.

Well it can't be by making them leaders because bibi fatimah r.a is also mentioned as the AHLE BAYT, was she also an infallible imam??

I'm sorry brother but the posts arnt numbered what was the question?

Also please try to stick to the verse 4:59 and give a direct answer brother.

You and AMEEN will get your answers today for the other threads. I'm in the process of typing as we speak. May take a couple of hours because you have asked a lot questions.

Assalamu alaykum.

 

 

Fatima AL Zahra (as) is Infallible also, According or Quran and Our Narrations and some of yours Which I can pin point.

Each post has a number on the top right Conner of each post.

Yes, We are not looking for answers, you are the one who imposed the Question so Technically we are having a debate, But at the moment it does not look like so, but rather and Argument. At any case, No I was not offended a All.

(salam)       

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Fatima AL Zahra (as) is Infallible also, According or Quran and Our Narrations and some of yours Which I can pin point.

Each post has a number on the top right Conner of each post.

Yes, We are not looking for answers, you are the one who imposed the Question so Technically we are having a debate, But at the moment it does not look like so, but rather and Argument. At any case, No I was not offended a All.

(salam)

Assalamu alaykum

I'm still typing your answers up for the other thread so il make this quick.

The verse of "infallibility" is still under discussion so you haven't proven a thing.

I wasn't asking you regarding the infallibility of FATIMA but told you how can you interpretate the hadith you pointed out as leadership when bibi fatimah wasn't an imam

First thing we need to do is find out if anybody was made infallible.

... But we will get back to that verse later. I'm here and I ain't going nowhere for a long time so we've got all the time in the world.

I promise you all the verses where we differ will be debated in great detail like we have with ulil amr, but for now ulil amr is stage 1 and then we can move onto 33:33 and 13:7.

Brother please give me an answer for this verse 4:59

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Assalamu alaykum

I'm still typing your answers up for the other thread so il make this quick.

The verse of "infallibility" is still under discussion so you haven't proven a thing.

I wasn't asking you regarding the infallibility of FATIMA but told you how can you interpretate the hadith you pointed out as leadership when bibi fatimah wasn't an imam

First thing we need to do is find out if anybody was made infallible.

... But we will get back to that verse later. I'm here and I ain't going nowhere for a long time so we've got all the time in the world.

I promise you all the verses where we differ will be debated in great detail like we have with ulil amr, but for now ulil amr is stage 1 and then we can move onto 33:33 and 13:7.

Brother please give me an answer for this verse 4:59

 

 

No its not under Discussion, you chose to leave it a side.

Mashalla, Move on to 33:33?

very Strange, What a waste of time putting forward valuable information. 

Answer post 118#

 

Who are 12 Khalifas please?

Who did the prophet leave behind to guide the Ummah? 

 

please with Quran and Ahadith.

(salam)

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THE ISLAMIC HISTOR

Y

 

 

 

Is There are more better word that says "Completely illogical"?

First of All Allah is saying That "if" the parents make an associate with me, they you can disobey them, and they he says follow those who are righteous on my path. So this is a condition where you are allowed to Disobey your parents. This has no relation to the Ul'i Am ar as they " MUST " be obeyed, and then Allah says Refer back to the prophet and to Allah. So Now that we are in a time where the prophet (pnuh) past away, can you please tell me who are we to Refer to? In the today world we have many Fataws based on Quran and Hadith, But they are not absolute. So to get the full complete answer we must go back to the prophet. But even so it tells us obey the prophet and Uli am ar, if obey them, Why are we coming to a Disagreement? We cannot see the prophet (pbuh) nor Allah For he cannot be senses by the five senses nor Do we know ( in your case) Who are Ul'i Al amr. So no doubt Allah has left a Guide and a Khalifa after the prophet (pbuh) and he the prophe t(pbuh) said I left the Quran and Ahulbayt, so We must REFER to the Quran and Ahllulbayt after the prophets Death, and the verse 4:59 Came in the time of the prophet While he was living. So cannot say "HE is trying to cut right through the Infallibles" because they are the guide after the prophet (pbuh) and he has put them in charge of the Ummah.

I am still waiting for your answer For Post 118#

Who are the 12 Righteous Khalifas? Who are ALL From QURIASH.

How can we hold on to Ahlulbayt (as)? 

Who has the prophet (pbuh) left in charge to guide the Ummah after his Death?

Allah has been sending Prophets And Imams For the start of the Creation Of Adam, 

​you think his going to Suddenly leave the Earth with our a Prophet or Imam on it?

 

(salam)

     

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Is There are more better word that says "Completely illogical"?

First of All Allah is saying That "if" the parents make an associate with me, they you can disobey them, and they he says follow those who are righteous on my path. So this is a condition where you are allowed to Disobey your parents. This has no relation to the Ul'i Am ar as they " MUST " be obeyed, and then Allah says Refer back to the prophet and to Allah. So Now that we are in a time where the prophet (pnuh) past away, can you please tell me who are we to Refer to? In the today world we have many Fataws based on Quran and Hadith, But they are not absolute. So to get the full complete answer we must go back to the prophet. But even so it tells us obey the prophet and Uli am ar, if obey them, Why are we coming to a Disagreement? We cannot see the prophet (pbuh) nor Allah For he cannot be senses by the five senses nor Do we know ( in your case) Who are Ul'i Al amr. So no doubt Allah has left a Guide and a Khalifa after the prophet (pbuh) and he the prophe t(pbuh) said I left the Quran and Ahulbayt, so We must REFER to the Quran and Ahllulbayt after the prophets Death, and the verse 4:59 Came in the time of the prophet While he was living. So cannot say "HE is trying to cut right through the Infallibles" because they are the guide after the prophet (pbuh) and he has put them in charge of the Ummah.

I am still waiting for your answer For Post 118#

Who are the 12 Righteous Khalifas? Who are ALL From QURIASH.

How can we hold on to Ahlulbayt (as)?

Who has the prophet (pbuh) left in charge to guide the Ummah after his Death?

Allah has been sending Prophets And Imams For the start of the Creation Of Adam,

​you think his going to Suddenly leave the Earth with our a Prophet or Imam on it?

(salam)

ISLAM HISTORY

Assalamu alaykum

If you had read my post properly you wouldn't have bought this as your evidence. I don't enjoy repeating myself its not on my favourite list.

I said there is also a condition with the ulil amr "IFyou differ in anything".

So now we have to work out why Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has said "if you differ refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger ( pbuh) if the ulil amr is appointed and infallible and his obedience Is unconditional then surely we wouldn't be differing after the answer given by the ulil amr, after all the ulil amr (according to shia) is an appointed infallible who's purpose to be there is to guide the ummah.

There can only be one answer and that is the differing continued and reached a new level of differing with the ulil amr (don't forget I started this with disagreement between two friends).

So if the ulil amr had a right decision and unconditional obedience then under no circumstances would Allah ( swt) cut through the ulil amr and say refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger ( pbuh).

Why would Allah ( swt) appoint an infallible who's purpose is to be referred to then cut straight through him and say refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger ?? What would be the beauty behind appointing an (ulil amr) if we still have to refer everything to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger ( pbuh). (Quran and hadith).

So it's pretty obvious now that these two friends do not agree with the answer given to them by the ulil amr so Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has given them a way out.... Refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger .

So since Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has given them two friends the way out of refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger ( pbuh) where does this leave the authority of the appointed infallible imam?? He's just been put to one side!! So what's the point of him being appointed??

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No its not under Discussion, you chose to leave it a side.

Mashalla, Move on to 33:33?

(salam)

You're having a laugh, right?? No seriously?

I NEVER NEVER NEVER RUN AWAY FROM ANY THREAD. AMEEN accused me of this in this thread but earlier on and I showed him that I never ever run away. I came back hard with a solid answer regarding "fee shayin".

Don't make the same mistake because I've read the verse 33:33 deeply with Arabic understanding.

You want to debate it then bring it.

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Salaam brother (just the truth). If a command has been given to obey someone then, such obedience is unconditional and without any circumstances, unless conditions have been mentioned and circumstances have been put down. If we read and examine the Ulul Amre verse, with a wide mind and an open heart, we can clearly see and find that, no conditions have mentioned and no circumstances have been put down, concerning obedience towards the Ulul Amre. This is crystal clear. You are only twisting and turning, the next part of the verse, according to your own understanding, to argue this. To be continued!

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Salaam brother (just the truth). If a command has been given to obey someone then, such obedience is unconditional and without any circumstances, unless conditions have been mentioned and circumstances have been put down. If we read and examine the Ulul Amre verse, with a wide mind and an open heart, we can clearly see and find that, no conditions have mentioned and no circumstances have been put down, concerning obedience towards the Ulul Amre. This is crystal clear. You are only twisting and turning, the next part of the verse, according to your own understanding, to argue this. To be continued!

Hold up hold up... Easy tiger.

How am I "twisting and turning" the second part of the verse??

I'm just taking the whole verse as a whole unlike al islam and shiapen.

Tell me exactly how am I "twisting and turning" anything??

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Continued. Brother just the truth, i've read your recent posts and due to a couple of remarks you have made in them, you seem like a person who loves to blow his own trumpet and you sound like a parrot who loves to dance to his own tune. I am working at the moment, so therefore responding in intervals. You will have to be a little patient. How??? I will definately tell you. To be continued!

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Hold up hold up... Easy tiger.

How am I "twisting and turning" the second part of the verse??

I'm just taking the whole verse as a whole unlike al islam and shiapen.

Tell me exactly how am I "twisting and turning" anything??

For the last time either answer post 118#

and Considering the verse I Will tell you again, Why did Allah no just tell us " Obey Allah and the prophet"

Why did he mention Ul'i AL Amr at the start?

   

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Continued. You are not taking the whole verse but infact you are only taking those bits and pieces, that just suit your theory and completely blanking everything else. You have the whole verse infront of you, now tell me those terms and conditions, in which one can only show obedience towards the Ulul Amre??? Can you show me a direct command, where Allah says you must obey your parents??? The verse you have used to justify obedience towards parents, where does it say in that verse, that one must obey their parents??? Where are the words " obey your parents " (atee ul walidain)??? I said " if you disagree, (fee) meaning " within this " and " shay'in " meaning " about anything ", i gave you the example of " zalikal kithabo la raiba fee ", where (fee) means " with in ". You said " here (fee) has been used at the end, where as in the Ulul Amre verse, it has been used before the end, so this is a different story. You wanted me to give you a verse, where (fee) has been used before the end and gives the meaning " with in ". Well here are two verses: la tufsedu fil arz and fis samawate wal arz. Can you translate them for me??? Here (fee), in both verses, means " with in ". To be continued!

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Continued. You are not taking the whole verse but infact you are only taking those bits and pieces, that just suit your theory and completely blanking everything else. You have the whole verse infront of you, now tell me those terms and conditions, in which one can only show obedience towards the Ulul Amre??? Can you show me a direct command, where Allah says you must obey your parents??? The verse you have used to justify obedience towards parents, where does it say in that verse, that one must obey their parents??? Where are the words " obey your parents " (atee ul walidain)??? I said " if you disagree, (fee) meaning " within this " and " shay'in " meaning " about anything ", i gave you the example of " zalikal kithabo la raiba fee ", where (fee) means " with in ". You said " here (fee) has been used at the end, where as in the Ulul Amre verse, it has been used before the end, so this is a different story. You wanted me to give you a verse, where (fee) has been used before the end and gives the meaning " with in ". Well here are two verses: la tufsedu fil arz and fis samawate wal arz. Can you translate them for me??? Here (fee), in both verses, means " with in ". To be continued!

Bro seriously just stop...

You're going round and round and getting nowhere.

I've explained to you the verse from start to end step by step.

Refer to my previous posts. The verse regarding not obeying parents says do not obey them... So in order for Allah swt to say do not obey them we must have been obeying them.

I've asked you one question regarding ulil amr and you've come back with lengthy replies which don't even come anywhere near the verse.

WHY SHOULDN'T WE REFER TO THE ULIL AMR IF HE IS APPOINTED??

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You are an empty vessle, that is making alot of noise. If you are told not to obey someone, then that simply means not to obey them. How does this mean, you must have been obeying them??? In the verse you have mentioned, Allah says " show goodness towards your parents ", meaning, be good and kind towards your parents. How does this mean obey??? Allah also says " wa bil walidaine ehsanan ", meaning, do favours to your parents. Now if Allah has commanded to obey your parents, then where is that command??? If people have been obeying their parents, on their own behalf then, that has got nothing to do with Allah. Do you even know the purpose to this verse??? People were obeying their parents, on their own behalf and parents. To be continued!

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You are an empty vessle, that is making alot of noise. If you are told not to obey someone, then that simply means not to obey them. How does this mean, you must have been obeying them??? In the verse you have mentioned, Allah says " show goodness towards your parents ", meaning, be good and kind towards your parents. How does this mean obey??? Allah also says " wa bil walidaine ehsanan ", meaning, do favours to your parents. Now if Allah has commanded to obey your parents, then where is that command??? If people have been obeying their parents, on their own behalf then, that has got nothing to do with Allah. Do you even know the purpose to this verse??? People were obeying their parents, on their own behalf and parents. To be continued!

WHY SHOULDN'T WE REFER TO THE ULIL AMR IF HE IS APPOINTED??

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