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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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It's not about getting to convince people, like brother just the truth, it's about keeping ahead in the discussion/arguement/debate. As you can see all brother just the truth has got left is sarcasm and accusations. That's all he can respond with. Dummy out of the pram, you are not a mufasir, the accusation of tehreef etc and this is what i want people to see.

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Which posts are based on knowledge and information and which are based on accusations and sarcasm, people are fully aware.

Brother just the truth isn't stupid and daft either. He clearly knows the type of response he is giving, in a childish manner.

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(1) and here you cease to even reply. In addition its Ironic how you call them theories, since you Reject your own Six Sahihs. brother, these are not theories genius. These are Authentic Hadiths I gave you from your own books. You either did not bother to read them, or You ignored them knowingly.

(2) Understand Wilaya before talking about Imamah.

(3) So its okay to to reject the Kholafa al Rashedoon?

Brother this is one of my last posts as I have made a firm intention of spending more time in worship.

Brother I never ceased to answer you I told you that you are not KAAFIR for rejecting khulafa rashideen. Brother I am not going to get into a full blown debate AGAIN with you all I am going to say is the below then leave it to you.

Brother Imamate according to you is an usul and an usul is an usul so one cannot accept part of an usul and reject the other half and expect to be classified as a Muslim.

Imate is believing ali a.s is the FIRST caliph/imam and that he is appointed by Allah (swt) and I reject both of the above. Imam ali a.s was the FOURTH caliph and was NOT appointed.

I totally reject Imamate of 12 imams yet you still call me a Muslim even after I reject an usul.

Here is my conclusion below which I have personally reached and I intend imam king this one of my last posts so there is no need for you to refute my conclusion as it believe whole heartedly In my conclusion.

MY CONCLUSION

If Imamate of 12 imams is PRECISELY mentioned in quran then the SUNNIS are DEFINATELY KAAFIR for rejecting a PRECISE verse of the quran.

If there is no precise verse then sunni are Muslims.

You can't have both ie; claim to have a PRECISE verse AND STILL call sunni Muslims for rejecting the precise verse.

Which posts are based on knowledge and information and which are based on accusations and sarcasm, people are fully aware.

Brother just the truth isn't stupid and daft either. He clearly knows the type of response he is giving, in a childish manner.

AMEEN my brother I have asked you time and time again to bring me a translation and tafsir to prove your stance that fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS. Yet you have time and time again failed to bring a tafsir to prove your stance on fee shayin. I have told you time and time again fee shayin means IN ANYTHING. You can get this verified from brother ISLAMIC history.

My dear brother it's ok. If you don't want to bring the translation and tafsir it no longer matters as I will not be here for much longer. Personally I think this is a total waste of valuable time. We should spend more time on praying etc etc.

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Brother just the truth, there is no reward for spending time in worship, if your faith and belief isn't correct. It doesn't matter if it's you, me or anyone else.

AMEEN personally I don't think that it's up to you who Allah ( swt) rewards.

Anyway brother you are still failing to bring a translation and tafseer to prove your stance my dear brother. So I will leave it here and I think the best thing to do is lets both leave it out and part ways.

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Brother this is one of my last posts as I have made a firm intention of spending more time in worship.

Brother I never ceased to answer you I told you that you are not KAAFIR for rejecting khulafa rashideen. Brother I am not going to get into a full blown debate AGAIN with you all I am going to say is the below then leave it to you.

Brother Imamate according to you is an usul and an usul is an usul so one cannot accept part of an usul and reject the other half and expect to be classified as a Muslim.

Imate is believing ali a.s is the FIRST caliph/imam and that he is appointed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and I reject both of the above. Imam ali a.s was the FOURTH caliph and was NOT appointed.

I totally reject Imamate of 12 imams yet you still call me a Muslim even after I reject an usul.

Here is my conclusion below which I have personally reached and I intend imam king this one of my last posts so there is no need for you to refute my conclusion as it believe whole heartedly In my conclusion.

MY CONCLUSION

If Imamate of 12 imams is PRECISELY mentioned in quran then the SUNNIS are DEFINATELY KAAFIR for rejecting a PRECISE verse of the quran.

If there is no precise verse then sunni are Muslims.

 

 

 

Dear JusTheTruth,

It is not doubt that you have ignored almost all of my Questions, Resources, facts, And the sunni works of your own Sect that I have put forward. At the moment your only Hujja you claim upon me is the illogical consensus of our sect in the principles of Islam. So far you have not answered my questions on the subject of Caliphs, Shura, Umar and Abu bakrs Atrocity and the fasle accusations and fabricated facts you have put forward. Nevertheless this does not mean anything to me, it is what you make of the truth and not I. Its very strange how a person from his own sect would ignore  most of the Authentic traditions from his own books such as the six sahihs and the books of the same authors who have wrote the six sahih. Do you now acknowledge them as your high ranked scholars? Or is it you belief that you take into priority without having to trace their origin? The infancy of these beliefs, which you hold on to without realization of the origin of what has determined it is in itself an act of ignorance. Now dear brother to you the foundations of Islam differs from what we believe, and out foundations differ from what you believe. There is no use of you criticizing what you have no faith in, nor does it Justify your point of view, and nor have you made a conclusion which we both agree on so you can made a reasonable criticism to justify your accusation that has no bases. Knowing the foundations of Islam is one thing, and having faith in them is another. Sadly, you without even justifying verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 you resort to claiming that you have, by putting it with the “only” optional choice for me to choose, when in the reality of this corrupted dialogue you have not justified your points about these two verses by any means, as I have given and asked you for evidence of such statements, you simply sidestep by analogy and analysis. You then make a false claim that Ayatollah al Tabtaba’i is contradicting him self, and how can you claim such a falsehood on the respected scholar, when he knows more than you, beyond your ignorance, as you have ignored half of the tafsir, you refuse to read the rest of it. Taking such out of context will not prove anything of your ideology (That Contradicts the Sunnah). Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever

 

 

in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a  Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams  is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t]   

 

 

To your false Conclusion which has no bases. You have not confronted the evidence we have provided:

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-8  (post 188#) - No refutation to the hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-5  (post 108#) - No refutation to the Hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-9  (post 201, 203, 204, 206, 207#) -No Refutations on the Hadiths Given...)

http://www.shiachat....-is-obligatory/  (This was post was made for you long time ago ) Yet I received no Replies.

http://www.shiachat....-of-12-caliphs/  ( page 2,3 and 4 ) -No Refutation to the Hadiths given so far.

and more as I cannot Locate them All.   

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Dear JusTheTruth,

It is not doubt that you have ignored almost all of my Questions, Resources, facts, And the sunni works of your own Sect that I have put forward. At the moment your only Hujja you claim upon me is the illogical consensus of our sect in the principles of Islam. So far you have not answered my questions on the subject of Caliphs, Shura, Umar and Abu bakrs Atrocity and the fasle accusations and fabricated facts you have put forward. Nevertheless this does not mean anything to me, it is what you make of the truth and not I. Its very strange how a person from his own sect would ignore most of the Authentic traditions from his own books such as the six sahihs and the books of the same authors who have wrote the six sahih. Do you now acknowledge them as your high ranked scholars? Or is it you belief that you take into priority without having to trace their origin? The infancy of these beliefs, which you hold on to without realization of the origin of what has determined it is in itself an act of ignorance. Now dear brother to you the foundations of Islam differs from what we believe, and out foundations differ from what you believe. There is no use of you criticizing what you have no faith in, nor does it Justify your point of view, and nor have you made a conclusion which we both agree on so you can made a reasonable criticism to justify your accusation that has no bases. Knowing the foundations of Islam is one thing, and having faith in them is another. Sadly, you without even justifying verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 you resort to claiming that you have, by putting it with the “only” optional choice for me to choose, when in the reality of this corrupted dialogue you have not justified your points about these two verses by any means, as I have given and asked you for evidence of such statements, you simply sidestep by analogy and analysis. You then make a false claim that Ayatollah al Tabtaba’i is contradicting him self, and how can you claim such a falsehood on the respected scholar, when he knows more than you, beyond your ignorance, as you have ignored half of the tafsir, you refuse to read the rest of it. Taking such out of context will not prove anything of your ideology (That Contradicts the Sunnah). Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever

in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t]

To your false Conclusion which has no bases. You have not confronted the evidence we have provided:

Stop running around in circles my dear. An usul is an usul FULLSTOP.

Tell me if I rejected lets say.... Angels or any other usul would I be a momin or a Muslim??

Of course I would be neither but I would be a KAAFIR so stop acting desperate and face reality.

Remove your taqqiyah

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Stop running around in circles my dear. An usul is an usul FULLSTOP.

Tell me if I rejected lets say.... Angels or any other usul would I be a momin or a Muslim??

Of course I would be neither but I would be a KAAFIR so stop acting desperate and face reality.

Remove your taqqiyah

Not a very good Insult. 

My answer is on the Paragraph above.

your not Kafir.

(wasalam) 

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Not a very good Insult.

My answer is on the Paragraph above.

your not Kafir.

(wasalam)

More like you're totally lost, because your answer as usual makes no sense.

AN USUL IS AN USUL you have to believe it 100 per cent FULL STOP or you're a KAAFIR. So like I said, remove the mask of taqqiyah

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More like you're totally lost, because your answer as usual makes no sense.

AN USUL IS AN USUL you have to believe it 100 per cent FULL STOP or you're a KAAFIR. So like I said, remove the mask of taqqiyah

 

 

(1) No you don't. When we are talking about Imamah. Thats what you believe but you have no proof of such. So please stop Insulting.

(2) No one is doing Taqiyah. When will you read?

(wasalam)

 

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