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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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1. It was mere forgiveness?? Ok. Like that even makes sense.

2.you might aswell

3.imam ali yes but I reject that imam jafar was caliph and imam baqir etc etc. I reject Ny of then were appointed

4.so sunni are kafir then

5.when you start talking sense.. How can a person remain a Muslim if he rejects an usul

DO YOU WANT TO REACH A CONCLUSION. BECAUSE I WANT TO REACH A CONCLUSION IN THE NEXT 15 MINS BECAUSE THIS HAS GONE ON FOR TOO LONG

 

 

 

(1) Sunni are Not Kafir, please no False statements. 

(2) and even if you do that does not make you a Kafir.

(3) They are Appointed By Allah. (Proven from Hadith and Sunni works)

(4) You have a Different Usul to Us, so your point of view is Invalid. And in our Usul Its Wilayat that is meant by Imamah.

(wasalam)

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(1) Sunni are Not Kafir, please no False statements.

(2) and even if you do that does not make you a Kafir.

(3) They are Appointed By Allah. (Proven from Hadith and Sunni works)

(4) You have a Different Usul to Us, so your point of view is Invalid. And in our Usul Its Wilayat that is meant by Imamah.

(wasalam)

Bro you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

REJECTING AN USUL TAKES YOU OUT OF ISLAM

The truth is that you want two things

1. You want to say imamTe is usul and is precisely mentioned in quran

2. And at the same time you want to call sunni Muslims while they reject the twelve "appointed imams".

Sorry but it's not going to happen. Pick 1

You have

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Bro you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

REJECTING AN USUL TAKES YOU OUT OF ISLAM

The truth is that you want two things

1. You want to say imamTe is usul and is precisely mentioned in quran

2. And at the same time you want to call sunni Muslims while they reject the twelve "appointed imams".

Sorry but it's not going to happen. Pick 1

You have

Our Usul are out Usul but Two of them are the Shadatain which is what makes you a Muslim. And not it does not please give me a Scholar who says them.

(1) The Imams are mentioned Precisely through the narrations that are Authentic.

(2) Second of all stop Contradicting your self brother the Imamah is Wilyat. 

(3) Am I kafir for rejecting Umar and uthamn? and Abu Bakr? Since they are (According to you (Not even proven) ) that they are the Caliphs which we should obey In the verse 4:59. So am I kafir??

(wasalam)

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Our Usul are out Usul but Two of them are the Shadatain which is what makes you a Muslim. And not it does not please give me a Scholar who says them.

(1) The Imams are mentioned Precisely through the narrations that are Authentic.

(2) Second of all stop Contradicting your self brother the Imamah is Wilyat.

(3) Am I kafir for rejecting Umar and uthamn? and Abu Bakr? Since they are (According to you (Not even proven) ) that they are the Caliphs which we should obey In the verse 4:59. So am I kafir??

(wasalam)

Believing in abu bakr umar etc caliphate is not an usul so stop comparing apples to oranges.

IMAMATE is an USUL

If disobeying ulul amr was wrong then Allah (swt) would have sent a verse saying so, because there are verses condemning us if we disobey Allah (swt) and his messenger ( pbuh) and since you believe ulil amr is on the same evel then there should have been a verse condemning us if we disobeyed ulil amr too.

Edited by Just the truth

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Believing in abu bakr umar etc caliphate is not an usul so stop comparing apples to oranges.

IMAMATE is an USUL

If disobeying ulul amr was wrong then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì would have sent a verse saying so, because there are verses condemning us if we disobey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his messenger ( pbuh) and since you believe ulil amr is on the same evel then there should have been a verse condemning us if we disobeyed ulil amr too.

(1) You did not Answer my Question Am I kafir for Disbelieving in them? What if I believe they are Criminals? Am I kafir?

(2) The ULi al amr are the 12 Caliphs. And by Disobeying Ahlulbayt you Disobey the prophet and Allah. as we know we must hold on to them, so we wont go astray.

(3) That point of view has been rejected between page 16-18.

(Wasalam)  

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Stop beating around the bush??? Brother just the truth, that is what you are exactly doing. Don't you think it's about time, you started answering my questions and discussing my points??? Why are you so afraid to go head on with me??? Your response to me is almost just a few lines. What are you frightened of???

To complete your faith you must believe in the imam FULLSTOP

To complete your faith, one must believe in the 12 imams FULLSTOP[/quote

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT!

Brother Aliyul Akbar, you asked me to explain to you about Nabuwath and Imaamath. I will give you a full reply on this subject. You wont see me ducking and diving, avoiding and ignoring, asking instead of answering, shying and hiding and then eventually accusing and abusing, just because i can't answer. This is not me or my style but infact, this is exactly what brother just the truth is all about.

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(1) You did not Answer my Question Am I kafir for Disbelieving in them? What if I believe they are Criminals? Am I kafir?

(2) The ULi al amr are the 12 Caliphs. And by Disobeying Ahlulbayt you Disobey the prophet and Allah. as we know we must hold on to them, so we wont go astray.

(3) That point of view has been rejected between page 16-18.

(Wasalam)

1. You are not kafir for disbelieving them or cursing them or calling them criminals. It us not usul to believe in abu bakr and co but for you it is an USUL.

Now stop running away from my question and tell me why you are calling me and other SUNNIS Muslims while we are according to you and your sect rejecting an usul.

2. Again you believe ulil amr are the 12 imams and not me.

3. Err... No. You gave me your "theory " with no proof

Stop beating around the bush??? Brother just the truth, that is what you are exactly doing. Don't you think it's about time, you started answering my questions and discussing my points??? Why are you so afraid to go head on with me??? Your response to me is almost just a few lines. What are you frightened of???

To complete your faith you must believe in the imam FULLSTOP

To complete your faith, one must believe in the 12 imams FULLSTOP[/quote

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT!

Brother Aliyul Akbar, you asked me to explain to you about Nabuwath and Imaamath. I will give you a full reply on this subject. You wont see me ducking and diving, avoiding and ignoring, asking instead of answering, shying and hiding and then eventually accusing and abusing, just because i can't answer. This is not me or my style but infact, this is exactly what brother just the truth is all about.

AMEEN stop throwing your dummy out of your pram and tell me why you are not bringing a translation and tafsir of verse 4:59?? What you so scared of??

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786

 

From my reading and study of the Tafsir's of the Quran according to Shia Fuquha the interpretation/definition of verse 3:7 is very different then the one put forward to frame this discussion which is that it establishes the fact that all of the Usul al-deen must come from precise verses.  

 

So I looked at Sunni versions of Tafsir to see if they have this interpretation and I found it to be closer to the general Shia view.  The Tafsir below which comes from the ahlul-sunnah gives a very different interpretation/definition.  So this entire debate within the framework of verse 3:7 does not make any sense.  The discussion can only be a general debate upon Shia/Sunni beliefs.

 

From Sunni sources:

 

{He it is Who hath revealed unto thee Muhammad the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book. and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.}

Tafseer ayah 3:7
 

He it is Who revealed to you the Book, wherein are verses [that are] clear, lucid in proof, forming the Mother Book, the original basis for rulings, and others allegorical, whose meanings are not known, such as the opening verses of some sūras. He [God] refers to the whole [Qur’ān] as: 1) ‘clear’ [muhkam] where He says [A Book] whose verses have been made clear [Q. 11:1], meaning that it contains no imperfections; and as 2) ‘allegorical’ [mutashābih], where He says A Book consimilar [Q. 39:23], meaning that its parts resemble each other in terms of beauty and veracity. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, inclination away from truth, they follow the allegorical part, desiring sedition, among the ignorant of them, throwing them into specious arguments and confusion, and desiring its interpretation, its explanation, and none knows its interpretation, its explanation, save God, Him alone. And those firmly rooted, established and capable, in knowledge (al-rāsikhūna fī’l-‘ilm is the subject, the predicate of which is [what follows]) say, ‘We believe in it, the allegorical part, that it is from God, and we do not know its meaning; all, of the clear and the allegorical, is from our Lord’; yet none remembers (yadhdhakkar, the initial tā’ [of yatadhakkar] has been assimilated with the dhāl), that is, none is admonished, but people of pith, possessors of intellect, who, when they see those following that [allegorical part only], also say:

 

Links:

 

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=7

 

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(NOTE: The Shia belief that i understand concerning the question on what defines a muslim is as follows:  To be a Muslim you must recite the 2 Shahadat's.  To be a Momin you must accept the Wilayat of Imam Ali (as).  Not accepting the Wilayat of Imam Ali (as) and then subsequently his successors can ead you to perdition and hypocrisy)

 

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As a side note and for all of my muslim brothers/sisters to ponder on their own.  (I will not argue with anyone concerning what I put forward - It is for each person to contemplate on their own - If someone wants to ask a question they can PM me)

 

Since this discussion should come to an end, I believe that to any neutral party it is clear that their are enough references in the Quran that Allah (s.w.t.) has made it clear that their will be a guide for all time, that only Allah (s.w.t) chooses that guide (i.e. his representative and proof), that those who posses knowledge from Allah (s.w.t.) will have complete understanding of the Quran and be the guide and thus have authority over humankind, that the concept of Wilaya (Imamate) and vicegerency clearly exists within the Quran.  

 

If one does not have certain preconceived prejudice and accepts the above, then one must come to the conclusion that the Prophet did have a vicegerents, they were (are to be) 12 based upon the verses establishing 12 vicegerents for each Prophet (as), that the vicegerents are guides. to be a guide/vicegerent they must have complete understanding of the Quran and be vested in authority by Allah (s.w.t.) to guide the Ummah.  Without these merits, criteria a guide could potentially misguide or make mistakes which could have very negative consequences and goes against the Justice of Allah (s.w.t.).  

 

If one comes to these conclusions, then the question is who are these guides?  What are their names?  Based upon this and the above one has to turn to the Prophet to determine their names because Allah (s.w.t.) clearly established the office through these clear verses from the Quran but did not provide the names of the office bearers.  (NOTE: Allah (s.w.t.) did the same for the Seal of the Prophets in the other books (Torah, Bible, Psalms) i.e. foretold of the coming of the reformer (office) but not his name).  So we turn to Hadith and it becomes clear from both schools of thought that they must be 12 and Ali (a.s) is the first of the 12.  Then Hadith from the Shia make it clear who the other 11 are with their names and the Mahdi (a.s.) being the last of the 12 according to both schools.

 

Additionally from a logical/philosophical/mystic/gnostic perspective one must focus on the Justice of Allah (s.w.t.).  It is clear to all that Allah (s.w.t.) must be and is Just.  The Quran and verses quoted in this discussion clearly establish that fact.  

 

Furthermore, Allah (s.w.t.) has created everything in balance (night/day; men/women; Sun/moon; etc....).  We all believe that with Allah (s.w.t.) permission, shaytan will continue to exist and mislead humankind until the end of time.  One must ask him/herself, why would Allah (s.w.t.) not create a counterveiling force to ensure balance and maintain justice as he himself establishes as part of his attributes.  

 

Allah (s.w.t.) has established that he does not directly communicate with humankind because they could not handle it.  As Allah (s.w.t.) says the mountains would self destruct if he communicated directly with them, we all know that the Prophets passed out (Musa (as)) or had symptoms of fear, shock or extreme fatigue when Allah (s.w.t.) did communicate with them directly (Prophet Muhammad (saws) upon receiving Wahi).  He only communicates through his special creation (prophets, vicegerents, angels, etc...) to humankind.  He uses these functions to carry out his order (ex. angel of death and other angels)

 

Then through whom is Allah (s.w.t.) providing guidance?  Or put another way, through Allah (s.w.t.) permission, who is countering the Shaytan?  Who did it from the beginning of creation? Who provided help and support to the other Prophets (who did they seek help through? Who had been created before Shaytan?  Who was it that Shaytan acknowledged during his argument with Allah (s.w.t.)?  If you ponder on these things then some verses from the Quran become more clear (ex. Surah Qadr - Who does the Amr come to each year), some Hadith make more sense and some of the sayings of Imam Ali (as) and the other Imams (as) said make sense.  

 

Then you will understand why Allah (s.w.t.) declared our Prophet (saws) to be the greatest of his creation.  Otherwise, what did he do that the other Prophets did not?  What did he endure that the others did not?  Is Allah (s.w.t.) unjust to elevate him for no reason?  When you understand the greatness of our Prophet then you will understand the greatness of his vicegerents and their role. Because the vicegerents of each Prophet have to be able to execute everything within the mandate of the leader whom they represent and thus must have all of the capabilities, traits and knowledge on par with him.  The Prophet Muhammad (saws) vicegerents then must have all of the capabilities, knowledge and traits to fulfill his role as Guide to properly discharge their duties.  If you can come to this logical/philosophical/mystic/gnostic conclusion then many verses of the Quran such as Surah al-Qadr and the verses of Mubahillah, 33:33 make complete sense.

 

As the prayer goes which I have posted before and will paraphrase this time, Allah (s.w.t.) please help me understand yourself because if I do not understand you and then I can not understand your Prophet (saws).  Please help me understand your Prophet (saws) because if I do not then I can not understand your Proof (as).  If I do not understand your Proof (as) then I will lose my Deen.  (If you understand the Justice of Allah (s.w.t.) then you will understand the greatness of his Prophet (saws) and then the greatness of his Proofs (as) and realize that any normal human can not fulfill the complete mandate of the role.  

 

Again, some thoughts for people to ponder with an open heart.  May Allah (s.w.t.) guide us all and make/keep our intentions pure so we seek the light and guidance and not fall into the traps of Shaytan.  Again, I will not argue with anyone nor post anymore on this thread.  If anyone wants to seek clarification or have any further inquiries they can PM me.  

 

 

Was salaam 

Edited by :wayfarer786

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You seem angry brother ameen

No, i'm not angry at all. Just mentioning a few facts, which clearly can be seen. This is no sign of anger. If he can't answer my questions and doesn't have the ability to discuss my points, then why should i be angry???

Brother just the truth, it's about time you took your dummy out of your mouth and start discussing. You put a question to me and i answer. I question you and you start dancing around.

I've translated it for you many times over. You have your meaning and i have mine. I've discussed mine but you are afraid to discuss yours. May be you have too much to lose and that is why you don't want to get into a discussion with me.

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Brother just the truth. Please read this with a heart with the intention of acceptance and no prejudice or bias..

This is off another post just to let you know, im not worthy of the credit. Thank pureethics

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you." (Quran 4:59).

-Here it is Minkum not Minhum, meaning Allah chose not anyone else. Clearly Allah states there is authority after the prophet. The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Quran uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again. Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr. If you think it is talking about the people chosen in democracy according to you why would Allah state this:

"Do not obey a sinner" (Quran 76:24)

-Clearly everyone sins, besides those whom Allah has chosen. Therefore we shouldnt obey anyone, because everyone sins, except whom Allah has chosen.

May Allah guide all

And Allah knows best

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1. You are not kafir for disbelieving them or cursing them or calling them criminals. It us not usul to believe in abu bakr and co but for you it is an USUL.

Now stop running away from my question and tell me why you are calling me and other SUNNIS Muslims while we are according to you and your sect rejecting an usul.

2. Again you believe ulil amr are the 12 imams and not me.

3. Err... No. You gave me your "theory " with no proof

re you so afraid to go head on with me??? Your response to me is almost just a few lines. What are you frightened of???

AMEEN stop throwing your dummy out of your pram and tell me why you are not bringing a translation and tafsir of verse 4:59?? What you so scared of??

 

 

 

(1) and here you cease to even reply. In addition its Ironic how you call them theories, since you Reject your own Six Sahihs. brother, these are not theories genius. These are Authentic Hadiths I gave you from your own books. You either did not bother to read them, or You ignored them knowingly.

(2) Understand Wilaya before talking about Imamah.

(3) So its okay to to reject the Kholafa al Rashedoon? 

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I feel this topic must be locked now  27 pages and same thing happening again and again! :)

Lets move on guys. The thing is that we can't convince others. Let people live in their world.

 

 

If people took the time to read. We would not be on the 27th page.

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