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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Salaam brother. You don't need to appologise and you haven't offended. I was just making a point and further more you are my brother, since we have more in much common and much less in difference but some of our people get carried away and let, the minor difference we have, get the better of us.

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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Listen brother, Allah didn't say "Obey the one you worship", because people worship different Gods and one could cause mischief or creat confusion. Allah made a specific command that "Obey Allah", which is crystal clear. Then Allah didn't say "Obey a Messenger", since people would differ and quarrel on, which Messenger needs to be obeyed. The current one or would obedience towards any of the previous ones do. Allah again made a specific command by saying "Obey the Messenger", which is crystal clear. Now here Allah doesn't make a specific command but a general one, by saying "Obey the Ulul Amre". Now Ulul Amre means those who are worthy of giving orders or command or worthy of passing judgement. This is a general statement, which Allah has made. To be continued.

,

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Listen brother, Allah didn't say "Obey the one you worship", because people worship different Gods and one could cause mischief or creat confusion. Allah made a specific command that "Obey Allah", which is crystal clear. Then Allah didn't say "Obey a Messenger", since people would differ and quarrel on, which Messenger needs to be obeyed. The current one or would obedience towards any of the previous ones do. Allah again made a specific command by saying "Obey the Messenger", which is crystal clear. Now here Allah doesn't make a specific command but a general one, by saying "Obey the Ulul Amre". Now Ulul Amre means those who are worthy of giving orders or command or worthy of passing judgement. This is a general statement, which Allah has made. To be continued.

,

Assalmu alaykum

So let me get this straight brother. Allah said obey Allah then he said obey "the" messenger to not cause confusion and he said obey "the" ulil amr.

So obviously we are not confused to who is Allah and messenger but we still don't know who ulil amr is unless there's a name in that verse that I've missed??

YOU SAID

Now Ulul Amre means those who are worthy of giving orders or command or worthy of passing judgement.

MY ANSWER

If they worthy of passing of passing judgment then why do we need to refer them to Allah and messenger???

Now the prophet (pbuh) was appointed to pass judgement obeying prophet was unconditional but we are told if we differ refer it to Allah and messenger (pbuh).

If the ulil amr was appointed to pass judgement and he was someone to refer to then why are we told to refer to Allah and messenger???

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Very simple brother, since the confusion is regarding the next verse: " If you quarrel, differ or disagree on anything, then refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger". Now my first point is, who is Allah speaking to here??? The people as well as the Ulul Amre or to the people excluding the Ulul Amre??? What do you say???

according to my point of view Allah is speaking to the people excluding the Ulul Amre because it wouldn't make sense and it wouldn't be logical. "And obey those who are worthy of giving orders among you". Who is Allah referring to or speaking to here??? Isn't it obvious that Allah is speaking to the people about the Ulul Amre??? And in the next verse Allah is referring to, speaking to both, the people and the Ulul Amre???

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You have your understanding and explanation regarding the verse and I have mine. Now we both can't be right, so why not go with the understanding and explanation, that fits better and is sensible and logical??? Pick up the English dictionary and take a look at what the meaning and definition is of OBEY. Then pick up an Arabic dictionary and take a look at what the meaning and definition is of ita'ath.

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Very simple brother, since the confusion is regarding the next verse: " If you quarrel, differ or disagree on anything, then refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger". Now my first point is, who is Allah speaking to here??? The people as well as the Ulul Amre or to the people excluding the Ulul Amre??? What do you say???

according to my point of view Allah is speaking to the people excluding the Ulul Amre because it wouldn't make sense and it wouldn't be logical. "And obey those who are worthy of giving orders among you". Who is Allah referring to or speaking to here??? Isn't it obvious that Allah is speaking to the people about the Ulul Amre??? And in the next verse Allah is referring to, speaking to both, the people and the Ulul Amre???

Assalmu alaykum

My dear brother lets stick with what you said, Allah (swt) is not talking to ulil amr in second part of verse.

Now il say what I've been saying from the start.

If the ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet (pbuh) ie; appointed, infalliable etc etc, then why can't we refer to the ulil amr?? But instead refer it to prophet (pbuh) and Allah (swt)?

What is the point of the ulil amr being appointed of he does not have that same quality as being referred to in the second part of the verse?

If what you say is correct then the verse should say;

If you differ ( normal people not ulil amr) then refer it to Allah messenger and ulil amr.

But instead the ulil amr does not have this status of being referred to, so what's the point of him being "appointed" if we have to refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) quran and hadith.

Why cant a falliable be referred to quran and hadith and if he refuses fight him like im zayd ibn ali (a.s) did and imam Hussein (a.s) did??? Which both imams were of course on HAQQ without a shadow of a doubt.

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"And if you quarrel, differ or disagree over anything" over what and with whom???? With the Ulul Amre??? But why would you quarrel, differ or disagree with the Ulul Amre??? You have just been given a direct order to obey them and obey means to submit and submit means give yourself up to a supreme authority and there is no question about conditions or circumstances, when it comes to submit.

tol

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"And if you quarrel, differ or disagree over anything" over what and with whom???? With the Ulul Amre??? But why would you quarrel, differ or disagree with the Ulul Amre??? You have just been given a direct order to obey them and obey means to submit and submit means give yourself up to a supreme authority and there is no question about conditions or circumstances, when it comes to submit.

tol

My brother this is what I'm trying to get at. If the ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet (pbuh) and he is the infallible imam after the prophet (pbuh) then we should refer everything to him. The whole point of having an "appointed" is so we can refer to him so why isn't he given the same status in the second part of the verse???

Why not if you differ refer to Allah (swt) messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr. This proves my point that ulil amr is fallible that's why we should refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh).

We believe that obeying ulil amr is conditional. We only need to obey ulil amr if he sticks with quran and hadith as soon as he does something wrong then we have to refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh).

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He is given an absolute and similar status to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), when it comes to obedience towards him. Now why don't you tell me that if one quarrels, differs or disagrees on anything, then how does one settle it??? By referring to Allah and his Messenger??? How??? How does this work??? What happens next??? How do you actually resolve???? What exactly are Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) going to do or say???

You believe that obeying Ul Amre is conditional??? Ok. What are the conditions and where are they mentioned in the verse??? If the Ulul Amre does something wrong??? Excuse me??? Allah has ordered you to obey the Ulul Amre by mentioning obedience towards the Ulul Amre, right alongside Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), then Allah has put you incharge to keep an eye on the Ulul Amre if he does anything wrong??? What if he does something wrong, what then??? What is your duty then???

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He is given an absolute and similar status to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), when it comes to obedience towards him. Now why don't you tell me that if one quarrels, differs or disagrees on anything, then how does one settle it??? By referring to Allah and his Messenger??? How??? How does this work??? What happens next??? How do you actually resolve???? What exactly are Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) going to do or say???

You believe that obeying Ul Amre is conditional??? Ok. What are the conditions and where are they mentioned in the verse??? If the Ulul Amre does something wrong??? Excuse me??? Allah has ordered you to obey the Ulul Amre by mentioning obedience towards the Ulul Amre, right alongside Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), then Allah has put you incharge to keep an eye on the Ulul Amre if he does anything wrong??? What if he does something wrong, what then??? What is your duty then???

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Brother I'm going to explain to you in detail what I believe regarding this verse and why I believe what I believe.

Now this verse is talking about obeying. Obeying Allah (swt) messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr.

The whole ummah agrees that obeying Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) is unconditional.

The issue the sunni and shia have is regarding ulil amr.

Now the verse continues and says:

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but shia believe that all these three have the same authority meaning unconditional obedience.

If this is true then why do we have to refer it to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh), why isn't the ulil amr given this status of being "referred to".

If ulil amr has same authority then shouldn't the verse finish the way it started?? I mean it would make more sense if it said;

Obey Allah (swt) messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr and if you differ refer it to Allah messenger and ulil amr.

But instead the ulil amr is excluded from this status of being referred to so this can only mean that he does not have the same authority.

I mean first we are told to obey him but then he is dropped in the last part of the verse.

My main question is that;

If, like shia say ulil amr has same authority as Allah (swt) and prophet (pbuh) then why isn't he referred to in the last part of the verse where we are told to refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh)??

If the ulil amr goes astray then you do what imam Hussein a.s and imam zayd ibn ali a.s did.... FIGHT THEM

We refer to Allah (swt) through the quran and to the prophet ( pbuh) via authentic hadith.

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Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Brother I'm going to explain to you in detail what I believe regarding this verse and why I believe what I believe.

Now this verse is talking about obeying. Obeying Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr.

The whole ummah agrees that obeying Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh) is unconditional.

The issue the sunni and shia have is regarding ulil amr.

Now the verse continues and says:

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but shia believe that all these three have the same authority meaning unconditional obedience.

If this is true then why do we have to refer it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh), why isn't the ulil amr given this status of being "referred to".

If ulil amr has same authority then shouldn't the verse finish the way it started?? I mean it would make more sense if it said;

Obey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr and if you differ refer it to Allah messenger and ulil amr.

But instead the ulil amr is excluded from this status of being referred to so this can only mean that he does not have the same authority.

I mean first we are told to obey him but then he is dropped in the last part of the verse.

My main question is that;

If, like shia say ulil amr has same authority as Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and prophet (pbuh) then why isn't he referred to in the last part of the verse where we are told to refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh)??

If the ulil amr goes astray then you do what imam Hussein a.s and imam zayd ibn ali a.s did.... FIGHT THEM

We refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì through the quran and to the prophet ( pbuh) via authentic hadith.

Thanks for putting your version forward. By the way have you looked up in the dictionary [English and Arabic] about the meaning and definition of obey and ita'ath??? Once you do then you will realize that, obey means to submit and submit is from submission and submission means absolute and total surrender. There are no conditions or circumstances. "Obey those, who are worthy of giving out command and orders, among you". This is the new message which is bring transmitted. This is the new authority which happens to be from among us. The next verse "If you quarrel, differ or disagree on anything", Ok lets go with your version, with the Ulul Amre then, what do you do??? "Refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger". Where does it say that you must fight the Ulul Amre??? Allah said "Refer the matter towards me and my Messenger". He didn't say "Take up arms against the ones you are given the command to obey". Imaam Hussain {as} didn't leave Madina towards Kufa to fight anyone. If his intentions were to fight then, why did he take his family along with him and why were there no soldiers with him??? Not even one.

Here is the Ahle Tashee version, with understanding and explanation: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those who are worthy of carrying out orders and giving out command among you because (Allah and his Messenger {pbuh} didn't want to leave the Quran and the Sunnah in uncapable and unreasonable hands and they also didn't want the Muslim Ummah to be left without further divine guidance regarding the Quran and the Sunnah), and if you quarrel differ or disagree on anything, (regarding who the Ulul Amre are among you or even if you develope any grievance or disappointment with the Ulul Amre, then do not disobey the Ulul Amre or take up arms and rebel against them but infact) refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger. If you believe in Allah and the last day and this is what is best for you.

If you take time out and read the history regarding the first eleven Shia Imaam, you will find that a lot of people, even some people in their camp, developed differences and disagreement with the Imaams. The matter sometimes went a bit further and turned into disappointment and grievance and due to this these individuals left the Imaams and joined the other camp.

In history the first to come about and develope were the religious Shia or Shia bil Aqeedah. These Shia sprung out during the incident of Sakeefa and later on the second to come about and develope were the political Shia or Shia bis Siyaasath. These Shia sprung out later on during Jamal and Safeen. The religious Shia or Shia Bil Aqeedah , who believed in Khilaafath Bilaa Fasal, always and I mean always remained loyal To Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Hassan (as), Hazrath Hussain (as) etc And such Shia were always just in a few numbers, where as the political Shias always looked at were the benefit lied. These political Shia were yesterday somebody else's Shia, today your Shia and tomorrow gone with the benefit and became someone else's Shia. These Shia were never loyal but only to the master that benefited them.

Brother just the truth, you spoke about the verse 5:55 or 5:56 was it??? Allah says "Absolutely, there is no doubt about it that Allah is you Wali and his Messenger and those people are also your Wali who have become believers, those people who pray and give the poor rate etc", Now if we go by your version that Wali means friend and Ally then, do you think this is sensible and logical that, Allah is your Wali (meaning friend and ally) and you worship him??? Does one worship their friend and ally?? The Messenger (pbuh) is your friend and ally and you take religion from him??? Does one take religion from a friend and ally??? If Wali means leader then you find it strange that Allah is your leader and the Messenger (pbuh) is your leader but how do you find what I have mentioned??? Do you not also find this strange??? To be continued!

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Thanks for putting your version forward. By the way have you looked up in the dictionary [English and Arabic] about the meaning and definition of obey and ita'ath??? Once you do then you will realize that, obey means to submit and submit is from submission and submission means absolute and total surrender. There are no conditions or circumstances. "Obey those, who are worthy of giving out command and orders, among you". This is the new message which is bring transmitted. This is the new authority which happens to be from among us. The next verse "If you quarrel, differ or disagree on anything", Ok lets go with your version, with the Ulul Amre then, what do you do??? "Refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger". Where does it say that you must fight the Ulul Amre??? Allah said "Refer the matter towards me and my Messenger". He didn't say "Take up arms against the ones you are given the command to obey". Imaam Hussain {as} didn't leave Madina towards Kufa to fight anyone. If his intentions were to fight then, why did he take his family along with him and why were there no soldiers with him??? Not even one.

Here is the Ahle Tashee version, with understanding and explanation: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those who are worthy of carrying out orders and giving out command among you because (Allah and his Messenger {pbuh} didn't want to leave the Quran and the Sunnah in uncapable and unreasonable hands and they also didn't want the Muslim Ummah to be left without further divine guidance regarding the Quran and the Sunnah), and if you quarrel differ or disagree on anything, (regarding who the Ulul Amre are among you or even if you develope any grievance or disappointment with the Ulul Amre, then do not disobey the Ulul Amre or take up arms and rebel against them but infact) refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger. If you believe in Allah and the last day and this is what is best for you.

If you take time out and read the history regarding the first eleven Shia Imaam, you will find that a lot of people, even some people in their camp, developed differences and disagreement with the Imaams. The matter sometimes went a bit further and turned into disappointment and grievance and due to this these individuals left the Imaams and joined the other camp.

In history the first to come about and develope were the religious Shia or Shia bil Aqeedah. These Shia sprung out during the incident of Sakeefa and later on the second to come about and develope were the political Shia or Shia bis Siyaasath. These Shia sprung out later on during Jamal and Safeen. The religious Shia or Shia Bil Aqeedah , who believed in Khilaafath Bilaa Fasal, always and I mean always remained loyal To Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Hassan (as), Hazrath Hussain (as) etc And such Shia were always just in a few numbers, where as the political Shias always looked at were the benefit lied. These political Shia were yesterday somebody else's Shia, today your Shia and tomorrow gone with the benefit and became someone else's Shia. These Shia were never loyal but only to the master that benefited them.

Brother just the truth, you spoke about the verse 5:55 or 5:56 was it??? Allah says "Absolutely, there is no doubt about it that Allah is you Wali and his Messenger and those people are also your Wali who have become believers, those people who pray and give the poor rate etc", Now if we go by your version that Wali means friend and Ally then, do you think this is sensible and logical that, Allah is your Wali (meaning friend and ally) and you worship him??? Does one worship their friend and ally?? The Messenger (pbuh) is your friend and ally and you take religion from him??? Does one take religion from a friend and ally??? If Wali means leader then you find it strange that Allah is your leader and the Messenger (pbuh) is your leader but how do you find what I have mentioned??? Do you not also find this strange??? To be continued!

I've got a full day at work will get back to you tonight. Inshallah.

Salams

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You claim that the whole Ummah agrees that obeying Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is unconditional. Now when this verse came down wasn't the Ummah aware that, they had to obey Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Before this verse who did the Ummah obey??? Did the Ummah not already show obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) before this verse was revealed??? Then why did the verse start off with obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), when the Ummah was already and absolutely aware of this command and were showing obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) to begin with???

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Who were the Ummah obeying and showing obedience to, before this verse was revealed??? I'm sure you will find it obvious that the Ummah was obeying and showing obedience towards Allah and his Messenger {pbuh}, before this verse was revealed. The command to obey Allah and his Messenger {pbuh} was already put in place, so why repeat something??? The first question would be, why set out a command, which is already being followed and carried out????

 

Was the command to obey the Ulul Amre already in place, before this verse was revealed??? Was Ulul Amre mentioned and introduced by Allah and his Messenger {pbuh} and recognised by the Ummah before this verse was revealed??? I'm sure the answers to these questions would be no. So there would be three things new here: 1, The addition to previous commands. 2, The mentioning of the Ulul Amre. 3, The command to obey the Ulul Amre.

 

Why didn't Allah just come out and say what he wanted to say and that is "Obey the Ulul Amre"??? Like I  said before, the only sensible and logical answer to this that, Allah wanted to set the standard and level of obedience he wanted, towards the Ulul Amre by the people. This is why Allah started off by himself and his Messenger {pbuh}. This also tells us that this isn't a separate command but an addition to the previous two commands.

 

The next part of the verse where Allah says "If you quarrel, disagree or differ among yourselves about anything, then refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)", What is going on here??? Is Allah speaking to the people and the Ulul Amre that, if you quarrel, disagree, or differ among yourselves over anything or is Allah just speaking to the people that, if you quarrel, disagree or differ among yourselves about anything regarding the Ulul Amre???

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If Allah is speaking to the people and the Ulul Amre that, if you (the people and the Ulul Amre) quarrel, disagree or differ over anything then, refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Now what is the point of the whole message, if the standard and level of the Ulul Amre is the same as the people??? Does it make sense that you are told to obey the Ulul Amre and then, you are allowed to quarrel, disagree and differ with them, basically over anything??? And if you do quarrel, disagree or differ with the Ulul Amre over anything then, refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, what is the whole point of the Ulul Amre, if it's going to go back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? If you are going to refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then what is the standard, level and importance of the Ulul Amre??? Why not stick with Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) to begin with, rather than going through this hassle of to quarrel, disagree and differ with yourselves and referring the matter back to them???

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Or do you think this understanding and explanation of the verse, is sensible and logical???

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger". Ok but we (people) already do this so why repeat??? Well we know you already do this but what I (Allah) mean by this is, just as you obey Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), I ((Allah) also want you to "Obey the Ulul Amre among you". Ok, so now we know the Ulul Amre are among us, so what's next??? "And if you quarrel, disagree or differ on anything". Sorry, if you??? You Who??? You the people ofcourse. Ok, so quarrel, disagree and differ with who??? With yourselves ofcourse, with each other. Not with the Ulul Amre because that wouldn't be right would it??? Why wouldn't it be right??? Because you have been given the command to obey them and if you quarrel, disagree or differ with Ulul Amre then, that would be disobeying them. Ok, so what do we do in the case of quarrel, disagreement or difference??? "Then refer the matter to Alah and his Messenger". So what do you exactly mean by this??? What I mean is, in the case of quarrel, disagreement or difference, do not cause division among yourselves, do not separate from each other and certainly do not rebel or cause rebellion against the Ulul Amre. Just refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Why??? Because "If you believe in Allah and the last day, this is better and very good in the end.

 

Go by the understanding and explanation, which is sensible and logical based on reality facts.

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Brother just the truth, the Messenger (pbuh) doesn't have the same status as Allah but the standard of obedience towards the Messenger (pbuh) is the same as obedience towards Allah. The status of the Ulul Amre is not the same as the staus of Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) but the standard of obedience towards the Ulul Amre is the same as obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and obedience doesn't come with conditions and circumstances. The matter isn't referred to the Ulul Amre but infact is referred towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)

Because the quarrel, disagreement or difference is comcerning and regarding the Ulul Amre, that is why the matter is referred towards those whom, there is no quarrel, disagreement or difference concerning or regarding with. Common basic sense.

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Brother just the truth, the Messenger (pbuh) doesn't have the same status as Allah but the standard of obedience towards the Messenger (pbuh) is the same as obedience towards Allah. The status of the Ulul Amre is not the same as the staus of Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) but the standard of obedience towards the Ulul Amre is the same as obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and obedience doesn't come with conditions and circumstances. The matter isn't referred to the Ulul Amre but infact is referred towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)

Because the quarrel, disagreement or difference is comcerning and regarding the Ulul Amre, that is why the matter is referred towards those whom, there is no quarrel, disagreement or difference concerning or regarding with. Common basic sense.

Then why wasn't the ulil amr mentioned in the last part of the verse when Allah says refer to........

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You are not going to refer a matter of disagreement or difference towards those who you have a disagreement or difference with or about are you???

The part of the verse "And if you quarrel, disagree or differ on anything", what is the quarrel, disagreement or difference about and with whom???? What would you say???

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You are not going to refer a matter of disagreement or difference towards those who you have a disagreement or difference with or about are you???

The part of the verse "And if you quarrel, disagree or differ on anything", what is the quarrel, disagreement or difference about and with whom???? What would you say???

Where it says "if you differ" it could be differing over "anything" like it says it in the verse.

Personally I think it's disagreement with the ulil amr but I'm willing to agree with you for now, with whatever you say regarding who is being differed with.

Who do you think Allah ( swt) is referring to??

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Where it says "if you differ" it could be differing over "anything" like it says it in the verse.

Personally I think it's disagreement with the ulil amr but I'm willing to agree with you for now, with whatever you say regarding who is being differed with.

Who do you think Allah ( swt) is referring to??

Where it says "if you differ"??? Take a look at the verse. If the disagreement is going to be between the people and the Ulul Amre then, where does the command to obey the Ulul Amre go??? By the way did you look up the meaning and definition of obey and ita'ath??? Now if we go by your version that if the Ulul Amre do something wrong then, the people should fight them, ok, would you mind telling me what the fourth Khalif of the Muslims did wrong that, Aisha (ra) and Ameer Muavia decided to fight the Ulul Amre of the time, where Allah put the command forward to obey the Ulul Amre and if you disagree over anything with the Ulul Amre then, refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Why didn't Aisha (ra) and Ameer Muavia just follow Allah's command and refer the matter of disagreement to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)???

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Where it says "if you differ"??? Take a look at the verse. If the disagreement is going to be between the people and the Ulul Amre then, where does the command to obey the Ulul Amre go??? By the way did you look up the meaning and definition of obey and ita'ath??? Now if we go by your version that if the Ulul Amre do something wrong then, the people should fight them, ok, would you mind telling me what the fourth Khalif of the Muslims did wrong that, Aisha (ra) and Ameer Muavia decided to fight the Ulul Amre of the time, where Allah put the command forward to obey the Ulul Amre and if you disagree over anything with the Ulul Amre then, refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Why didn't Aisha (ra) and Ameer Muavia just follow Allah's command and refer the matter of disagreement to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)???

My brother I said il agree with whoever you say.

So who do you say??

The rest of your reply is off the topic. If you want to talk about islamic civil wars my brother then open a new thread

Firstly we're still trying to figure out who ulil amr is!!

Salams

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We are still trying to figure out who the Ulul Amre is??? What, still after fourteen hundred years??? Never mind about who the Ulul Amre is, we are still trying to figure out the standard and status of the Ulul Amre and to what degree should we obey them. Some nation we are, aren't we???

My reply isn't off the topic, it's about the Ulul Amre (the fourth rightly guided khalif of the Muslims) and those people ( Aisha, Talah, Zubair, Muavia etc) who had a disagreement with the Ulul Amre and instead of referring the matter to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) decided to disregard Allah's command and rebel against the UlulAmre and cause division within the Ummah.

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We are still trying to figure out who the Ulul Amre is??? What, still after fourteen hundred years??? Never mind about who the Ulul Amre is, we are still trying to figure out the standard and status of the Ulul Amre and to what degree should we obey them. Some nation we are, aren't we???

My reply isn't off the topic, it's about the Ulul Amre (the fourth rightly guided khalif of the Muslims) and those people ( Aisha, Talah, Zubair, Muavia etc) who had a disagreement with the Ulul Amre and instead of referring the matter to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) decided to disregard Allah's command and rebel against the UlulAmre and cause division within the Ummah.

Yes, "some nation we are". So who do you think Allah is talking about when he says if you differ?

First lets figure out who the ulil amr are then we'll discuss the civil wars.

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Don't you think that one should at least follow their belief, faith and school of thought, when it comes to incidents and events??? What is the point of believing in something if you are hesitant to apply it??? According to Ahle Sunnah Ulul Amre is the person incharge and leading the country (hakim-e-waqth). Now it is obvious that the fourth rightly guided khalif of the Muslims was the Ulul Amre of the time. Those people who had a disagreement with him broke Allah's command on two occasions. One they disobeyed the Ulul Amre, two, they didn't refer the disagreement back to Allah. Why do the Ahle Sunnah go silent, on their own belief and faith, when it comes to incidents and events???? Why the double standard???

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Don't you think that one should at least follow their belief, faith and school of thought, when it comes to incidents and events??? What is the point of believing in something if you are hesitant to apply it??? According to Ahle Sunnah Ulul Amre is the person incharge and leading the country (hakim-e-waqth). Now it is obvious that the fourth rightly guided khalif of the Muslims was the Ulul Amre of the time. Those people who had a disagreement with him broke Allah's command on two occasions. One they disobeyed the Ulul Amre, two, they didn't refer the disagreement back to Allah. Why do the Ahle Sunnah go silent, on their own belief and faith, when it comes to incidents and events???? Why the double standard???

We will DEFINATELY come back to this when you tell me who Allah (swt) is referring to when he says "if you differ".

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yes ofcourse. Allah is speaking to the people, right from the very start and all the way through.

So if the ulil amr has the same status as the prophet ( pbuh) (according to shia belief) then why shouldn't we refer to ulil amr also???

Isn't the whole point of having an appointed infalliable so we can refer to them???

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So if the ulil amr has the same status as the prophet ( pbuh) (according to shia belief) then why shouldn't we refer to ulil amr also???

Isn't the whole point of having an appointed infalliable so we can refer to them???

 

 

Have I not answered you with the Hadith al Thaqalian where the prophet says "The TWO KHALIFAS AFTER ME."

????

 

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....and have I not answered you that you must prove imamate from quran before hadith?? Since its usul ad din??

 

I did, and I pointed out verses, and the problem is you just ignore it and take the words in English (No Where close to Arabic) in Literal sense.

You did not even reply to Hadith Al Taqlain in the type that it was said as "Khalifa".

(salam)  

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I did, and I pointed out verses, and the problem is you just ignore it and take the words in English (No Where close to Arabic) in Literal sense.

You did not even reply to Hadith Al Taqlain in the type that it was said as "Khalifa".

(salam)

The verses you pointed out were UNSPECIFIC and it says in surah 3:7 that the verses of the foundation are precise

Salams

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