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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Brother Ameen you said:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-31#entry2640704

 

 

Dear brothers and sisters, there is no way that, the Prophet  (pbuh) would die, pass away, leave this world, without naming and nominating his successor. Without pointing out towards a new form of leadership. Without introducing a guide for the Ummah. Without leaving the Quran and Sunnah, in safe, secure, reliable and capable hands. It's just not possible and this is what Ahle Tashee is all about.

 

 

I said where is your guide today. 

 

You then said:

 the divinely appointed figure is Hazrath Imaam Mahdi  (as). Where is your guide??? He is in occultation. 

 

Brother don't you think you contradicted yourself. 

 

You said how can the Prophet (saw) leave without appointing someone to guide the Ummah. 

 

I ask you how can 12th Imam leave the Ummah in darkness for over 1200 years and go in occultation? 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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Brother Ameen you said:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-31#entry2640704

 

 

I said where is your guide today. 

 

You then said:

 

Brother don't you think you contradicted yourself. 

 

You said how can the Prophet (saw) leave without appointing someone to guide the Ummah. 

 

I ask you how can 12th Imam leave the Ummah in darkness for over 1200 years and go in occultation? 

 

 

 

 

(1) Holding onto Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the book of Allah (Authentic Narration) we will not go astray. And the Mahdi (A.F) is Of Ahlulbayt (a.s) (Authentic Narration).

(2) Having Faith in him, and following the Orders he left before going into the Major Occultation.

(3) Can you pleas explain to me how do we hold on to Ahlulbayt (a.s)?

___________________

 

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Brother Ameen you said:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-31#entry2640704

I said where is your guide today.

You then said:

Brother don't you think you contradicted yourself.

You said how can the Prophet (saw) leave without appointing someone to guide the Ummah.

I ask you how can 12th Imam leave the Ummah in darkness for over 1200 years and go in occultation?

First of all Salaam brother and welcome back. It's nice of you to eventually show yourself again. I honestly thought that was the end of you. Now lets get straight to your question, before you accuse me of, never getting to the point again.

Your question "brother don't you think you contradicted yourself?". My answer is, no i didn't contradict my self.

Your second question "how can the 12th Imaam leave the Ummah in darkness, for over 1200 years and go into occultation?".

My answer followed by examples and details. The 12th Imaam did not leave the Ummah. I repeat "did not leave the Ummah". It is the Ummah that neglected the 12th Imaam, just as they neglected the previous 11.

Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) left 12 Leaders/Khalifs/Imaams for the guidance of the Muslim Ummah and left Quran and Sunnah in their hands, for safeguarding and safekeeping. There are many hadiths that prove this and the Ahle Sunnah also accept this and are 12rs too.

Like i said that the Ahle Sunnah are also Isna Ashar meaning that they also believe in the hadith regarding the 12 leadres/Khalifs/Imaams. The dispute is not about the 12 but the dispute is about who those 12 exactly are. If Allah, the Messenger (pbuh) or both mentioned anyone or any personalty that, would appear in the future then, if this is not divine guidance or divine appointment then, tell me what is???

The Ahle Sunnah also believe in the coming of Mahdi. The coming of this saviour, who is going to free the world of unjustice and unfairness, wickedness and cruelty etc. If this isn't divine appointment then, tell me what is??? Now tell me that we already have the Quran and Sunnah, so why are we going to have unjustice, unfairness, wickedness, cruelty etc to such a state that, we are going to have an individual called Mahdi turning up out of the blue or being born out of the blue, to get rid of the world from this and that??? Why??? We have the Quran and Sunnah, are they not enough???

I thought Islam had been completed "Al yauma akmaltho lakum deenokum" meaning "today l have completed your religion for you". So who, what and why is this Mahdi, who both Ahle Tashee and Ahle Sunnah believe, who is going to turn up or be born out of the blue and whos job is going to be the saviour (super man) of the world??? The religion has been completed and perfected, so what's going to happen here??? Allah also says "Wa atmamtho alaikum namathy" meaning "And i have fullfilled my favours upon you", so who and what is this new favour (Mahdi) that, has yet to come???

There were also 12 leaders who followed Hazrath Moses (as) and what and how did the Ummah of Moses (as) welcome and treat them??? How did Bani Isra'eel welcome and treat them???

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Brother Abul Hussain Hassani, Hazrath Imaam Mahdi (as) didn't leave the Ummah behind but infact was told to part from the Ummah, due to their continious neglect of this divine appointment and their horrific behaviour and attitude, towards this divine selection. Because how the Ummah behaved and treated 11 out of the magnificent 12.

Magnificent??? Yes and excellent, also brilliant 11. Why??? Because the entire Islamic history is there for you, which clearly tells you about the character, performance and achievement, of these 11 and the 12 is still outstanding (Qaim) until (Waqth-e-maloom). Yes, this term has also been used in the Quran, which is something separate and different, than the day of judgement.

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Now brother about occultation, this is not something new and niether is being in occultation something either. We already have, not one but, two individuals who are in occultation and they are Hazrath Jesus (as) and Hazrath Khizar (as). So like i said occultation and being in it isn't something new or something to be surprised about.

Hazrath Imaam Mahdi (as) did not go into occultation but was infact sent into occultation, by the almighty and all powerful Allah, just as Hazrath Jesus (as) and Hazrath Khizar (as). My dear brother you have two things here: 1, prediction. 2, confirmation. The first has to do with the future, where as the second has to do with the past. Now here is a question that, if Hazrath Imaam Mahdi (as) is really in occultation then, why hasn't Allah mentioned all this in the Quran??? A very important question and most definately needs to be answered.

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I only the quote the relevant part:

My answer followed by examples and details. The 12th Imaam did not leave the Ummah. I repeat "did not leave the Ummah". It is the Ummah that neglected the 12th Imaam, just as they neglected the previous 11.

 

Does it make any difference? No. The point is he is not present to guide and the Ummah is in darkness for over 1200 years. So just like you said how can the Prophet (saw) leave the Ummah without a guide the same can be said about the 12th Imam. 

 

P.S. Don't bring the example of Isa (as). It has nothing to do with what I am asking. Moreover, Isa (as) was not divinely appointed leader after Prophet (saw) to guide people the deen. If he was in occultation like 12th Imam then there was no need for last Prophet (saw) to come.   You see the contradictions here. And according to Shia, Imams job is different and important than Prophets.


(salam)

 

I said: 

  

Brother Ameen you said:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-31#entry2640704

 

 

I said where is your guide today. 

 

You then said:

 

Brother don't you think you contradicted yourself. 

 

You said how can the Prophet (saw) leave without appointing someone to guide the Ummah. 

 

I ask you how can 12th Imam leave the Ummah in darkness for over 1200 years and go in occultation? 

 

 

You replied:

 

(1) Holding onto Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the book of Allah (Authentic Narration) we will not go astray. And the Mahdi (A.F) is Of Ahlulbayt (a.s) (Authentic Narration).
(2) Having Faith in him, and following the Orders he left before going into the Major Occultation.

(3) Can you pleas explain to me how do we hold on to Ahlulbayt (a.s)?
___________________

 

My reply: 

 

(1) Holding on to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) we will not go astray. 

(2) Having faith in the Prophet (saw), following his Sunnah and the orders he left before leaving the world. 

 

Why not follow the Prophet (saw) then?

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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I only the quote the relevant part:

 

Does it make any difference? No. The point is he is not present to guide and the Ummah is in darkness for over 1200 years. So just like you said how can the Prophet (saw) leave the Ummah without a guide the same can be said about the 12th Imam. 

 

P.S. Don't bring the example of Isa (as). It has nothing to do with what I am asking. Moreover, Isa (as) was not divinely appointed leader after Prophet (saw) to guide people the deen. If he was in occultation like 12th Imam then there was no need for last Prophet (saw) to come.   You see the contradictions here. And according to Shia, Imams job is different and important than Prophets.

(salam)

 

I said: 

  
 

 

You replied:

 

 

My reply: 

 

(1) Holding on to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) we will not go astray. 

(2) Having faith in the Prophet (saw), following his Sunnah and the orders he left before leaving the world. 

 

Why not follow the Prophet (saw) then?

 

 

(1) We know the Sunnah are the Orders. But I ask you; Did the prophet peace be upon him says The Book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt? or did he say the book of Allah and my Sunnah? Which one?

(2) Following in the Prophet (s) means Following Ahlulbayt (a.s) and his Orders to us is to follow Ahlulbayt (a.s).

We do Follow The prophet (s).

 

(3) if it can be said so as you claim, There is a Huge difference on Whom we follow that lead us to the Straight path. Either the 12 Caliphs, or your caliphs who made them selves Caliphs with Shura. And not a Consensus of the Whole Society as you people claim so . 

______________

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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My dear brother Abul Hussain Hassani, you said "I only quote the relevant part". My dear brother on what basis have you decided, which part of my post is relevant and which is irrelevant??? How did you come about to such a decision??? And why have you disregarded the rest of my entire post???

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Brother Abul Hussain Hassani, first of all the majority of the Muslim Ummah do not believe that, they are in any kind of darkness what so ever. The majority do not believe in divine appointment, after the Messenger (pbuh) to begin with. They just believe in Quran and Sunnah, after the Messenger (pbuh) and they take Quran and Sunnah from Aaimah-e-Arbaa or God knows who else. They also believe in Hakim-e-Waqth to take care of their states affairs. What criteria or procedure do they believe in, to select this Hakim-e-Waqth, only they or their God knows best.

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Since the Prophet's (pbuh) death certain members of the Ummah have followed there own will, wish and desire. They totally disregarded 11 of the 12 Imaams. How these 11 were treated and what their family, relatives, friends, supporters and followers went through, is not a secret or isn't unkown. The majority of the Ummah just hasn't cared and either remained silent or gone with the flow. Divine guidance and divine appointment is only there and usefull if the Ummah requires and backs it. Otherwise "La ikraha fid deen" meaning there is no force (push and shove) when it comes to religion. It's the loss of the Ummah and if they are too blind to accept and realise it, then that is down to them.

Be it Imaam Mahdi (as) or the Messenger (pbuh), they didn't leave the Ummah without divine guidance and appointment. They didn't leave the Ummah in darkness. They didn't leave the Ummah to separate and divide, infact it's the Ummah who has been arrogant and ignorant and not acted with responsibility and consideration, when it came to the successor of the Messenger (pbuh) and onwards. Blame the Ummah, blame yourself for the separation, division, chaos and mess the Ummah is in today. Don't try to put the blame on the Messenger (pbuh) or the divine guides. This is what the Ummah wanted and this is what the Ummah got.

Brother Abul Hussain Hassani you said "according to the Shia an Imaam's job is different and IMPORTANT than the Prophets". I would definately like to see you put forward some reference to back your claim. If the Quran and Sunnah are our guides and why not follow the Prophet (pbuh) full stop, then why is the Ummah in such division and mess today???

Why are we taking Quran and Sunnah from different or multiple sources??? Why do we have minor as well as major differences, when it comes to practices of religion. Why is religion being preeched and practiced differently???

Edited by Ameen

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Occultation and being in it is what were discussing here. So Hazrath Jesus (as) is related to this topic. Like i said there are two things here: 1, prediction where one predicts about the future. Is there a verse in the Quran, where Allah predicts about Hazrath Mahdi (as) going and being in occultation???

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For our brothers who have doubts concerning the Imams of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) I would assert that we have other proofs besides the ones already mentioned.

I would encourage our brothers of Ahl Sunnah to read and study some of the works produced by Imams(a.s) such as Nahjul Balagha, Mufatih Al Jinan, and the fiqh of Imam Sadiq(a.s), which all the Imams of Ahl Al Sunnah took from to create their own works. If our Sunni brothers, especially the ones who know Arabic, would read and consider these books and then ask themselves if there is anyone, other than an Imam, who could produce such spotless brilliance and insight which is not found in any other book on earth, with the exception of the Holy Quran. 

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Well one would need to ask themselves that, is there a clear verse in the Bible, where Allah predicts about Hazrath Jesus (as) will eventually go into occultation, due to extreme circumstances??? Why didn't Allah mention in the Bible, what was going to happen to Hazrath Jesus (as) and how Allah would lift him up into occultation, for safe keeping for a future mission???

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For our brothers who have doubts concerning the Imams of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) I would assert that we have other proofs besides the ones already mentioned.

I would encourage our brothers of Ahl Sunnah to read and study some of the works produced by Imams(a.s) such as Nahjul Balagha, Mufatih Al Jinan, and the fiqh of Imam Sadiq(a.s), which all the Imams of Ahl Al Sunnah took from to create their own works. If our Sunni brothers, especially the ones who know Arabic, would read and consider these books and then ask themselves if there is anyone, other than an Imam, who could produce such spotless brilliance and insight which is not found in any other book on earth, with the exception of the Holy Quran.

Imam ar-Ridha [a] said: “May the mercy of Allah be upon the servant who keeps alive our commandment (Wilayah).”

Then the person attending the Imam asked him [a] how their commandment could be kept alive and he [a] replied: “He can learn our sciences and teach them to people. Verily, if people knew the merits of our statements, they would surely follow us.”

(‘Uyoon Akhbar ar-Ridha, vol.1, p. 207)

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For our brothers who have doubts concerning the Imams of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) I would assert that we have other proofs besides the ones already mentioned.

I would encourage our brothers of Ahl Sunnah to read and study some of the works produced by Imams(a.s) such as Nahjul Balagha, Mufatih Al Jinan, and the fiqh of Imam Sadiq(a.s), which all the Imams of Ahl Al Sunnah took from to create their own works. If our Sunni brothers, especially the ones who know Arabic, would read and consider these books and then ask themselves if there is anyone, other than an Imam, who could produce such spotless brilliance and insight which is not found in any other book on earth, with the exception of the Holy Quran. 

 

 

 

I would also Recommend Mesba'ah Al Sharia (Lantern of the path) By Imam Ja'afar al saidiq (as), Compiled by his Students. The Amount of Virtues you will find are priceless, some even I did not know before. Highly Recommend it.

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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What you've put forward is right gentlemen but if there is an issue with the persons status then, mentioning and putting forward that particular persons sayings, doings, books etc will not have any effect. The issue is our brothers do not accept the status and position of the 12 Imaams. They do not consider them as divinely appointed. According to them they definately were pious and good people but they were not divinely appointed. This is the issue. So putting forward books relating to the Imaams or mentioning their sayings, is going to have very little or no effect at all. It's like mentioning and putting forward hadiths to an individual, whos arguement is that, i do not believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was the Messenger of Allah. Convince me that he was. He definately was a pious and good man.

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How are you going to convince or what method of discussion are you going to use, with such an individual, who does not believe in the Messenger status of Muhammad (pbuh) and who does not accept the Quran as the book of Allah???? Are you going to put various verses and hadiths. Infront of such an individual????

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How are you going to convince or what method of discussion are you going to use, with such an individual, who does not believe in the Messenger status of Muhammad (pbuh) and who does not accept the Quran as the book of Allah???? Are you going to put various verses and hadiths. Infront of such an individual????

 

 

At such Cases, One would use Logic and reasoning. 

 

 

(salam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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At such Cases, One would use Logic and reasoning.

(salam)

Well said brother. Take a look at your own posts. The amount of information that you have put forward, is absolutely remarkable and your work is absolutely outstanding but what have we got in return??? Oh, i'm not interested or i do not have time, in your long copy paste articles or the words garbage and rubbish have been used. To be continued!

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Brother Islam history, your articles and posts are worth more than pounds and dollars, worth more than silver and gold, infact worth more than diamonds and jewels. But the information is still denied by certain brothers, who raise suspicion and cast doubt.

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Well said brother. Take a look at your own posts. The amount of information that you have put forward, is absolutely remarkable and your work is absolutely outstanding but what have we got in return??? Oh, i'm not interested or i do not have time, in your long copy paste articles or the words garbage and rubbish have been used. To be continued!

 

 

 

(1) Copy and past Number One Excuse.

(2) Not making Sense, Second Excuse.

___________

Yes brother It really Depends on how people see things, If for example people around that Particular person Put an Ideology in a persons mind or so, they will Only Hover around and deny to accept anything that Opposes it, In other Terms its a Well known part of Denialism that has many chaning natures, depending on how a person reacts when being Opposed by. When Socrates or Plato won a debate against the Worldly Ideologies of others, they never, not even once claimed that they have "One", rather they Surmised the debate and ended it with the Conclusion of what "came" from the argument. They did not wont to "Win" or become "Victorious", No, They rather wanted Show Righteousness from the Truth when Coming to a Consensus on these matters, and therefore they actually Never claimed They "Won" They only claimed they "proved" but not For the Whole of time, only for that The present time.

(wasalam)     

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(1) Copy and past Number One Excuse.

(2) Not making Sense, Second Excuse.

___________

Yes brother It really Depends on how people see things, If for example people around that Particular person Put an Ideology in a persons mind or so, they will Only Hover around and deny to accept anything that Opposes it, In other Terms its a Well known part of Denialism that has many chaning natures, depending on how a person reacts when being Opposed by. When Socrates or Plato won a debate against the Worldly Ideologies of others, they never, not even once claimed that they have "One", rather they Surmised the debate and ended it with the Conclusion of what "came" from the argument. They did not wont to "Win" or become "Victorious", No, They rather wanted Show Righteousness from the Truth when Coming to a Consensus on these matters, and therefore they actually Never claimed They "Won" They only claimed they "proved" but not For the Whole of time, only for that The present time.

(wasalam)

Jazakallah brother. May Allah bless you and keep you in his hifz o aman. Keep up the brilliant work. Allah will definately reward you for it, in this life and the here after.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

With due respect to my sunni brothers who raised the question on Usool e Din, i have seen posts where sunni especially from Pakistan aka deoband school majority claim that not believing in the Caliphhood of first three Caliphs you are out of folds of Islam. Now i already know that this is not in your article of faith i.e Usool e Deen but since some sunni brothers claims as such than may i reverse the question which has been asked about Imamaat which has been repeatedly asked by some of our brothers like Just The Truth

Specific verse on Caliphhood as part of Usool e Deen and if there is none than how come sunni (aka deobands or salafs) declare us out of folds of Islam.

Looking for replies from our sunni brothers especially who are keen to declare us out of folds of Islam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

With due respect to my sunni brothers who raised the question on Usool e Din, i have seen posts where sunni especially from Pakistan aka deoband school majority claim that not believing in the Caliphhood of first three Caliphs you are out of folds of Islam. Now i already know that this is not in your article of faith i.e Usool e Deen but since some sunni brothers claims as such than may i reverse the question which has been asked about Imamaat which has been repeatedly asked by some of our brothers like Just The Truth

Specific verse on Caliphhood as part of Usool e Deen and if there is none than how come sunni (aka deobands or salafs) declare us out of folds of Islam.

Looking for replies from our sunni brothers especially who are keen to declare us out of folds of Islam

 

(salam)

I actually posted some statements from the four schools of thought on this issue and asked them but they said they refuted such statements, so I asked what School they followed, and they have not Answered me since then...They refused to reveal to me the School of thought they were from for some Unknown reason.

(wasalam) 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Lol !!! Brother that is what is exactly called double standards and a kind of their own kind of taqia  :realangery:

 

 

The Irony, at the same Time when I was asking such a Question, I was being called: A lair, "You are doing Taqiyyaa!!", and so on.....Very Strange...it makes you think who is doing Taqiya here.....

(wasalam)

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(salam)

I actually posted some statements from the four schools of thought on this issue and asked them but they said they refuted such statements, so I asked what School they followed, and they have not Answered me since then...They refused to reveal to me the School of thought they were from for some Unknown reason.

(wasalam)

 

They accuse others of taqeya but like to keep themselves silent and hidden. How strange! What is the joy in this and where is the pride in this that, you don't have the ability, strength and courage to, declare and discuss who you actually are and what school of faith you follow and why. Makes me wonder!

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I would like to bump this topic.

 

I think we have to distinguish between the two notions, "those followed/obeyed" type authority, and "those who should be obeyed/followed" type authority. 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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