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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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I clearly never accused you of anything brother, there is no doubt if you look hard enough that many people blindly argue each other on this forum.

 

 

Yes I agree, No doubt, I guess it Depends on the Goal of the person, If he wants to Understand or Prove (to Earn a status that does not Exist.)

 

By the way I see your a Fan Of assassins creed III, Nice =) 

 

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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........

 

HADITH OF TWO SUCCESSORS

The command to obey is infinite-total obedience in all material, religious and spiritual matters, therefore, as this verse clearly signifies, the ulil amr must also be as just, wise and merciful as Allah and the Holy Prophet are, and he who - administers the affairs of mankind should be the khalifatullah (vicegerent of Allah) and the waliallah (representative of Allah whom He chooses after equipping him with His wisdom). Please refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 30 to 39 and 124; and al-Ma-idah: 55 and 56 and 3 and 67 with reference to the event at Ghadir Khum; and al-Rad: 43; and al-Hud: 17. A careful study of the above references discloses that Ali, and after him, the remaining eleven Imams, in the progeny of the Holy Prophet, Ali and FATIMAH, are the true successors of the Holy Prophet who have been REFFERED TO AS ULIL AMR in this verse. So the Shias obey and follow the Holy Prophet and the twelve Imams.

Tafseer verse 4:59

http://quran.al-islam.org

Al pooya says FATIMA is also successor so how can this be talking in terms if leadership??

Imamate is believing in 12 imams who lead the ummah so where does bibi fatima fit into this?? No by Allah we should take this hadith In its literal sense and not do injustice with it.

 

Bro, while you are away, maybe take some english comprehension lesson's. If you are unable to grasp basic english, what hope is there for you? He is saying the remaining 11 Imams are the successors whom we are to follow and they are from the progeny of the Holy Prophet saww, Imam Ali a.s & Fatima a.s.

 

The rest of our post i couldn't be bothered to read, which no doubt contained more mistakes.....

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Bro, while you are away, maybe take some english comprehension lesson's. If you are unable to grasp basic english, what hope is there for you? He is saying the remaining 11 Imams are the successors whom we are to follow and they are from the progeny of the Holy Prophet saww, Imam Ali a.s & Fatima a.s.

 

The rest of our post i couldn't be bothered to read, which no doubt contained more mistakes.....

 

 

I am answering the Post Currently. And May Allah Reward you.

(wasalam) 

(bismillah)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Statement:

I would also like to mention that you claim to be unbias and one with an open heart. I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. There are many reasons why I have left AMEEN in his misguided ways and have not tried to correct his behaviour regarding "fee shayin" in verse 4:59. One of them many reasons is that I wanted to see if you were willing to correct him but instead of correcting him or staying neutral you did the total opposite and tried to defend him knowing full well that he was bang out of order

 

 

Dear brother, Before going around can calling everyone misguided as you claim, I have not see anything wrong with what Ameen is saying, Whether it is Fee Shain, Or whatever you like to put around. In the Holy verse, Fee Sahin, means "In something", If you Translate it In Arabic with the correct literature. As we said Earlier it does not make a Difference, because the opinion (Disagreement) of the people is not a Holy Law, or a command from Allah, its what "They Disagree" in, and this has nothing to do with Allah Appointing Whom he want to guide Humanity on earth.   

 

 

Statement:

AMEEN is going round this thread saying FEE SHAYIN means in anything WITHIN THIS when really it means IN ANYTHING.

 

(1) Dear brother, Its exactly the same, Within Something, also means Fe Shai'a, Or in anything Within.

(2) I would Really Advise you to learn Arabic. I am sure there Are many sites or Resources you can use.

 

 

Statement:

AMEEN is roaming around in this thread with his tehreef and the sad thing is, not once has anybody rebuked him on this thread but instead either voiced support for him like "malang" or whatever his name is and "aliyulakbar" and "struggling for the light" or they have just defended him like yourself. You have left him to it as though the quran is nothing.

 

(1) Please brother, Respect others, How can you claim I have left the Quran as if it is Nothing (Na'azo'billah)

(2) And Brother, there was no Tahreef in this Thread, I think you have a misunderstanding on the Meaning of Tahreef

(3) Giving a Translation is not Tahreef dear brother. 

(4) I assure you its better if you give your time into learning Arabic.

 

Now coming to your reply I strongly disagree with you in verse 13:7 I do not understand how you can sit there and say the prophet (s) is not the guide after departing this worldly life. I know you have bought "hadith". You should know that I am not a person who is very clued up regarding the science of hadith. Having said this I can assure you that ahle sunnah do not interpretate these "hadith" even IF they are "authentic" as you claim, in the manner in which you are interpretating them.  There may be some misguided scholars who I am at this time unaware of (from ahle sunnah) who believe what you say, but to say the prophet (s) is no longer the guide is unacceptable. To help me prove my claim I have tafseer from your scholar: "All schools of Islam agree that the whole Quran was sent to baytul ma-mur and thereafter it was revealed to the Holy Prophet on suitable occasions during a period of 23 years. Bayt ul ma-mur is said to be the celestial counterpart of the holy Kabah. It is an allegorical term used for the heart of the Holy Prophet. The book of Allah and its connection with the Holy Prophet has been explained in detail in the commentary of verse 2 of this surah. The readers are requested to please study it carefully to know that the divinely chosen HOLY PROPHET was commissioned to GUIDE the WHOLE MANKIND TILL ETERNITY after he had received the whole guidance and wisdom (the Quran), and that he delivered it to the people gradually whenever he received the divine command".  Who's guidance was ali and eleven imams following?? Exactly your imams were themselves following the guidance of rasolallah (s)  SO THE PROPHET  is number 1 and ANYBODY ELSE IS AFTER

 

 

(1) Dear brother I did not claim, that the prophet peace be upon him is not the Guide nor did I claim he is the only Guide, and nor did I claim that there is no guide. In the light of this verse, and According to the Arabic Literature as it is, we see that Nazeer and ha'ad are Two separated terms, and are not made in that way that they should be with each other. They cannot both Refer to one person, As I showed on the Analysis I made on the last page for you. (Not Copied and pasted if you claim so, please Give a link). The Authentic narrations, Which I used to prove my stance from the Sunni Works, Proves that the prophet peace be upon him said that Ali is the guide after him of the Ummah. This is very clear in terms of the saying that was said by the prophet Peace be upon him. You cannpt say that your scholars are misguided dear brother, I even mentioned the Scholar which you use to Reject my previous narrations (Imam Dhabai) So I advise you to learn what are the Sunni Books that the sunni Sect have, and accept, and I advise you to learn at least on how a Sahih and weak narrations work. And Concerning the Issue of the guide, Allah (S.W.T) Will always guide humanity, no matter what period of time, I would like to ask, Why Were their Successor in the first place? Why not Just prophets? I would also like to ask you, why did prophet Jesus peace be upon him leave Twelve Successor for his nation? can you please explain why? If Jesus at the time was the only guide for the nation, why did he Order the people To follow the people whom he appointed? This is the Hujja upon you brother, When Allah Says "Khalifa" How can you say he only means "prophets"? if so, if it was limited to such, Why did not just say" I will put on this earth a Prophet?" When Allah says Khalifa, that means Those who have Authority over the Ummah In accordance to the Law of Allah, Who you should Follow. And you cannot Deny this, When Prophet Solomon (a.s) Appointed his Successor, Why did he do so? If We assume that Prophet Solomon (a.s) is the only guide? And keep in mind, when a prophet Does something to guide his nation, he does on the basis of what Allah tells Orders him to do. I would also Like to ask you, Why did the prophet say, that we have to hold on to the book of Allah and his Ahlulbayt (a.s) can you pelase tell me why? if The prophet was the only guide, then does that mean we leave his Ahlulbayt (a.s)? Which he Order us to Follow them? Does that mean we have to leave the book of Allah? (Na'azoBillah)? No dear brother, This is clear proof, that the prophet peace be upon him Left In the Ummah The book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt (a.s) as a guide, for us to follow, so I ask you here, at the time of the prophets Death, Who do we follow? Abu bakr? or Imam Ali? Imam hassan? or Muwaiyah? Imam Hussain? or Yazid? (L.A)? Do we follow the Ahlulbayt (a.s)? Or the three Caliphs Who appointed them Selves? Use your logic and reasoning, and please face it with Honesty. Allah knows best. The guidance of Allah is Continuous till this very moment. Imam Ali (A.s) ad the eleven Caliphs peace be upon them all, And only them Knew The Religion of Islam Fully, and no one on earth Knew best other than them. Do you think after the death of the prophet peace be upon him, all the people Knew what Islam is? Do you think they all knew between what is Forbidden and what is not? Do you think all being who accept Islam, knew the True meaning of the verses of the Book of Allah? Who will they ask? Who do they need to go to? Who will judge between them Justly? That is why it is important to have a guide after the prophet, Why do you think Allah gave the Knowledge of his book to the Ahlulbayt and the prophets? And the successors? Did he just give it to them for no reason? Please use your logic, as we know if the prophet peace be upon him tells you to follow a certain person, whom he trusts, then that could only mean it is from the Command of Allah, For as we have prove to you earlier on, No one appoints Accept Allah. yes or no? So if we only need the prophet? Then tell why did the People do Shura? Can you pleas Answer me? because they Needed a person to be the guide, to guide their Ummah, but as we know and according to History, That Whole concept of Shura has nothing to do with Islam and it is Invalid and till to this very day you have failed to prove it to us, and that is why we have not been able to come to a Conclusion as you have ignored many Questions on the Day  of Ghadeer Khum and the Day of Mubahala. One must only ask him self, Why did the verse "Today I have completed your Religion" came down on the day of Ghadeer khum? The prophet peace be upon him Clearly Made that with the Wilayat of Imam Ali (a.s) The Religion of Islam is Complete, by appointing Him as Successor, And today if you can tell me why don't we have verses that mention Abu bakr? Umar? Uthman? and the rest of the Misguided Caliphs? Why do we only have verses On Imam Ali (a.s)? Care to tell me why? Why is there a verse On Ahlulbayt (a.s) and not the Three Caliphs? Who is the guide brother? can you please tell me Who is after the prophet the Real Caliph? if you cannot or Refuse to Answer this Question, then there is no appoint in your making a reply or a false statement made up of Accusation, which have no bases.

 

 

 

 

 

VERSE 4:59

You then try to tried to prove Imamate of your 12 imams using this blessed verse. If you're going to use this verse as your precise verse as we are told foundations are in precise verses in surah 3:7

"Most of the verses of the Quran are clear and decisive. There is no ambiguity in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the fundamentals of the faith, such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can neither be changed nor modified. Any man of average intelligence can understand and follow them".

Verse 3:7

Source: http://quran.al-islam.org

Now open your heart and tell me why can't we use "ulil amr" for leaders, governors, scholars. Ulil amr is NOT talking about a group of people precisely. Ie; imams. All it means is "those in/with authority.Now tell me when ali a.s appointed governors ie; Malik ashtar, what were the people supposed to do, obey him disobey him ignore him?? What ?? Of course obey him since he r.a was one of "those in/with authority". Simply put Malik ashtar was ulil amr while he was governer and people had to OBEY him and "if they differed in anything" refer to Allah and messenger as we are told in letter 53 nahj ul balagah.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't Know why you have Simply Ignored My previous Reply and think its okay to just repeat what you say But on the previous page I clearly said/Stated the following:

"Now here I see you are Quoting this in the means to Justify your view that verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 are not Precise. First of all according to the Analysis I made Up the top, you will now find that verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 are very Precise, because of the Evidence I put Forward, "any man with of Average intelligence can understand and follow them." and When we say average intelligence these are people who have read will into Islam. But Whether or not they are Precise that does not mean they are not a foundation of Islam, till today you have shown us no Context out of the Ordinary to prove this, to you, you view anything in according to your beliefs and that is why the perspective you look at it from is from the Blind spot of things. in Tafsir al Tabtaba'i (our Tafsir) is very clear on verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 that they are Precise on the Successors of the prophet peace be upon him, so you cannot use this is a Hujja upon us, In addition your theory of both verses have not been proven factually or Literary. "

 

 

Adding to what I said, its clear When we see, For example: "The Hawarin" Are those Successor of Jesus (a.s) and as we read for example the Successor of prophet Solomon (a.s) Who Appointed a Successor and moved the thorn was Identified by the "The one who has the knowledge of the Scriptures", Given that with what your Assumptions say, is that anyone can have the "knowledge of the Scriptures", but in the Context of the verse we see clearly it is been Referred to the Successor of prophet Solomon (a.s). Mind also telling me how he moved the Throne? Why Did the prophet not do it him self? Why did he tell his successor? Do you know why? because to prove it as a Hujja upon his nation so they have no doubt that he is the true Successor after the prophet Solomon (a.s). In terms of the verse its Clear who Uli al amr, are as we have mentioned many narrations showing that the prophet peace be upon him said, in your false Analogy to verse 3:7, you cannot claim, nor prove to us that verse 5:55 and verse 4:59 are Un-precise because in the light of those two verses, we are told who our "Masters" are. Meaning those who have Authority over us in the accordance of the Law of Allah. When Allah tells you to obey someone, he must be appointed. Because in the light of the verse, he mentions that we Must obey him, the prophet, and Uli al amr. And now if your saying they are parents, Scholars, or leaders chosen by People, you are mistaken and I have proved it to you here on the following post 891# on the previous page, so Unless you are able to Quote or give an Understanding according to what I said, I will be more than happy to Read your Replies what might be worth reading. So here brother, your Certain analogy which you hold on to is Incorrect.

 

 

 

 

Statement:

Now tell me when ali a.s appointed governors ie; Malik ashtar, what were the people supposed to do, obey him disobey him ignore him?? What ?? Of course obey him since he r.a was one of "those in/with authority". Simply put Malik ashtar was ulil amr while he was governer and people had to OBEY him and "if they differed in anything" refer to Allah and messenger as we are told in letter 53 nahj ul balagah.

 

 

(1) Concerning Letter 53 I have Given an Explanation on page 30, post #748, Please Learn Arabic, Because Imam Ali (a.s) said the Sunnah is With him, In this mean We have to obey him. Please use your logic, We all have a certain amount of some.

(2) Malik al Ashtar is appointed by the Wali, if people know that he was appointed by the Imam Ali (a.s) they would follow him to follow Imam Ali (a.s) as to how the prophet appointed Imam Ali (a.s) and Hamza (R.a) When Engaging War with the enemies, they had Authority over the Army, but that is not divine appointment by Allah.

(3) What the people Differ in, does make Prophet, Nor Imam Ali (a.s) wrong, can you please tell me how the peoples Opinions are Justified more than the justice of the prophet and his Ahlulbayt (a.s) Peace be upon them all. ? how can this be? If Two sides had to to Differ in something l 

 

Statement:

Now why in verse 83 are we told refer to "ulil amr" and not in 59? In order to understand this we need to understand that verse 4:59 and 4:83 were sent at different times. So in 4:83 it's clear that the differing cannot be with the "ulil amr" because we are told to refer to them. But then why not refer to ulil amr in verse 4:59?? Now let's use "sense" and "logic".  We are not told exactly who the ulil amr are

Secondly in this verse we are not told to refer to them If Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wanted us to refer to the ulil amr as they will be the guides after prophet (s) (AS YOU SHIA SAY) then why did Allah(swt) refrain from mentioning "refer" to them?? Simple answer. The differing is with the ulil amr. Otherwise why not refer to him?? Do you have a single verse where we are condemned for disobeying ulil amr?? NO YOU DONT. Do we have verses condemning us if we disobey Allah  and his prophet (s) ?? YES WE DO. Alhamdulillah. Would it not have been justice that there was a verse condemning us for disobeying ulil amr since the ulil amr has the same authority as prophet (s) (according to shia). If a non Muslim read this verse do you think he would understand without reading tafseer hadith that this verse is talking about "infallible imams"?? NO. Because ulil amr means "those in authority". You shouldn't need to go to hadith to understand WHAT Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is telling us in a precise verse. Ie; Allah is one, Muhammad (s) is an apostle, belief in holy books etc Etc. 

 

 

(1) First of all, To understand a Certain verse Whether it is Specific or Unspecific, you need to look at What the narrations say, to Understand it, From Inside out, and as Brother @Rasul Mentioned In Sunan Dawud:

 

 

 

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(2) 

 

 

 

    وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُواْ بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُولِي الأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لاَتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً

 

And when there comes to them news of security or fear, they spread it; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who (can) draw out the truth in it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Satan, save a few.

(4:83)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to the Tafsir of Al TabaTaba'i:

 

"The opinion that it refers to the 'rightly guided' caliphs (Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and 'Ali) is more baseless. First of all, there is no proof for it in the Book of Allah or a definitely accepted tradition. Secondly, we have a right to ask: Was the order given in this verse limited to the time of the Prophet (s.a.w.)? Or, was it general - for his time as well as after him? If it was meant for his time only, then the four personalities should have been known as the people of authority to all the people and particularly to the Companions of the Prophet; but the history and traditions do not record any such especial status for them at all. In case it was valid for the post-Prophetic era too, then its validity was bound to expire after those four caliphs had passed away. If so, then the verse should have contained some indication to that effect as is the case with other verses which announce some especial rules for the Prophet (s.a.w.); but the verse does not hint at any such limitation."

 

 

And later on, he mentions them as the 12 Caliphs. So brother your False view, that the Shia are not on a Consensus on Uli al amr I s False, In the Math'hab/School of thought of Ahlulbayt (a.s) we have to an agreement, that Uli al amr can only mean the 12 caliphs. And I have mentioned Many Reasons in, So as I have said Dear brother, If they if they (The people) come to a Disagreement, (the people) Who are they to judge that Uli al amr are not to bey Obey or not? When Allah is saying "obey" them?, It is Known though out the history of man, that When a prophet comes with a message, there are people who will accept and people who will not accept, and that is the differing among people, but that does not mean that the prophet's message is wrong, now does it? If your stating that the opinion of the people is more justified, then that of the prophets peace be upon him, then that is False and Incorrect, sense the people have no Knowledge whatsoever given by Allah, nor do have they received in sort of Revelation to have a Hujja upon the Choices of the prophet peace be upon him, and whom he chooses as Successor. I will tell you to ask your self again,  how can we refer to the prophet? Did he not say I have left in My Ummah two Weighy things Which if you hold on to them you "Will Never" go astray? The book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt? did he not say that? and if we want to Refer to the book of Allah Do we not neeed a prophet Interpretation from an Authentic hadiths? And Who knows The Quran better than Ahlulbayt (s)? your making up a baseless Excuses here; The Ahlulbayt (s) have knowledge of the prophet (s) and the Book Of Allah. And When the verse says "if you Differ" in "anything" that does not mean the Uli al amr are of bad. How can this be so? When in a another verse Allah is telling them the people to Refer To the prophet (s) and Uli al amr, and Allah says it Would be better? Where is your logic? Your Making a Silly assumption but when "People read it" they would not understand. And what type of Logic Is this brother its Clearly If one is well Found of the English and the Arabic Language and is able to Distinguish between them in meaning and concept, then one surely will understand what it means, Sadly, when one listens to another's opinion, they feel it is unnecessarily to check whether it is true or not, and that is why people fail to understand these clear verses. In verse 4:83 it is Advising them to Refer what has Come to them from Righteousness and Falsehood to the Prophet (a.s) and Uli al amr, It is possible that the verse may have come at Different times, but when we say "Uli al amr, That cannot Mean a another Group Different to the one mentioned in verse 4:59, Uli al amr are those who have Authority among us, and it is they who are appointed by Allah, and that we should refer to them, because they are the ones who know the knowledge of the book of Allah, you seem to be Missing the narration of Al Thaqlain on purpose, and why so? Are you narrow to admit that you should be following Ahlulbayt (a.s) or have you not yet looked at the evidence that we have provide? Knowing Who are Uli al amr is the Most Crucial and Critical point of this issue Dear brother, and you have constantly denied and Ignored this with any clarification or claims, or even telling us with simply words, that you prefer to ignore this issue so at the least we are able to see what aspect your refusing and,which you are not. In the light of this Holy verse (4:83) We read in Tafsir Ibn Kathir  & Tafsir al Qurtubi on the verse 4:83:

Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Volume 4, page 177: 

 

وفي سنن أبي داود أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال : " بئس مطية الرجل زعموا عليه " .

وفي الصحيح : " من حدث بحديث وهو يرى أنه كذب فهو أحد الكاذبين " . ويذكر هاهنا حديث عمر بن الخطاب المتفق عليه ، حين بلغه أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم طلق نساءه ، فجاءه من منزله حتى دخل المسجد فوجد الناس يقولون ذلك ، فلم يصبر حتى استأذن على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فاستفهمه : أطلقت نساءك ؟ قال : " لا " . فقلت : الله أكبر . وذكر الحديث بطوله .

وعند مسلم : فقلت : أطلقتهن ؟ فقال : " لا " فقمت على باب المسجد فناديت بأعلى صوتي : لم يطلق رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم نساءه . ونزلت هذه الآية : ( وإذا جاءهم أمر من الأمن أو الخوف أذاعوا به ولو ردوه إلى الرسول وإلى أولي الأمر منهم لعلمه الذين يستنبطونه منهم ) فكنت أنا استنبطت ذلك الأمر .

 

 

 

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According to Tafsir ibn Kathir the following verse (83) in Surat al Nisa, has come down on the issue of "Divorce" and he uses Sahih Muslim as Reference in the book of Divorce, Narration Number 40 :

 

 

 

حَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ يُونُسَ الْحَنَفِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا عِكْرِمَةُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، عَنْ سِمَاكٍ أَبِي زُمَيْلٍ، حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَبَّاسٍ، حَدَّثَنِي عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ، قَالَ لَمَّا اعْتَزَلَ نَبِيُّ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم نِسَاءَهُ - قَالَ - دَخَلْتُ الْمَسْجِدَ فَإِذَا النَّاسُ يَنْكُتُونَ بِالْحَصَى وَيَقُولُونَ طَلَّقَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم نِسَاءَهُ وَذَلِكَ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُؤْمَرْنَ بِالْحِجَابِ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ فَقُلْتُ لأَعْلَمَنَّ ذَلِكَ الْيَوْمَ قَالَ فَدَخَلْتُ عَلَى عَائِشَةَ فَقُلْتُ يَا بِنْتَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ أَقَدْ بَلَغَ مِنْ شَأْنِكِ أَنْ تُؤْذِي رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ مَا لِي وَمَا لَكَ يَا ابْنَ الْخَطَّابِ عَلَيْكَ بِعَيْبَتِكَ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَدَخَلْتُ عَلَى حَفْصَةَ بِنْتِ عُمَرَ فَقُلْتُ لَهَا يَا حَفْصَةُ أَقَدْ بَلَغَ مِنْ شَأْنِكِ أَنْ تُؤْذِي رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَاللَّهِ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتِ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لاَ يُحِبُّكِ ‏.‏ وَلَوْلاَ أَنَا لَطَلَّقَكِ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏ فَبَكَتْ أَشَدَّ الْبُكَاءِ فَقُلْتُ لَهَا أَيْنَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَتْ هُوَ فِي خِزَانَتِهِ فِي الْمَشْرُبَةِ ‏.‏ فَدَخَلْتُ فَإِذَا أَنَا بِرَبَاحٍ غُلاَمِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَاعِدًا عَلَى أُسْكُفَّةِ الْمَشْرُبَةِ مُدَلٍّ رِجْلَيْهِ عَلَى نَقِيرٍ مِنْ خَشَبٍ وَهُوَ جِذْعٌ يَرْقَى عَلَيْهِ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَيَنْحَدِرُ فَنَادَيْتُ يَا رَبَاحُ اسْتَأْذِنْ لِي عِنْدَكَ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏ فَنَظَرَ رَبَاحٌ إِلَى الْغُرْفَةِ ثُمَّ نَظَرَ إِلَىَّ فَلَمْ يَقُلْ شَيْئًا ثُمَّ قُلْتُ يَا رَبَاحُ اسْتَأْذِنْ لِي عِنْدَكَ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏.‏ فَنَظَرَ رَبَاحٌ إِلَى الْغُرْفَةِ ثُمَّ نَظَرَ إِلَىَّ فَلَمْ يَقُلْ شَيْئًا ثُمَّ رَفَعْتُ صَوْتِي فَقُلْتُ يَا رَبَاحُ اسْتَأْذِنْ لِي عِنْدَكَ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَإِنِّي أَظُنُّ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ظَنَّ أَنِّي جِئْتُ مِنْ أَجْلِ حَفْصَةَ وَاللَّهِ لَئِنْ أَمَرَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِضَرْبِ عُنُقِهَا لأَضْرِبَنَّ عُنُقَهَا ‏.‏ وَرَفَعْتُ صَوْتِي فَأَوْمَأَ إِلَىَّ أَنِ ارْقَهْ فَدَخَلْتُ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهُوَ مُضْطَجِعٌ عَلَى حَصِيرٍ فَجَلَسْتُ فَأَدْنَى عَلَيْهِ إِزَارَهُ وَلَيْسَ عَلَيْهِ غَيْرُهُ وَإِذَا الْحَصِيرُ قَدْ أَثَّرَ فِي جَنْبِهِ فَنَظَرْتُ بِبَصَرِي فِي خِزَانَةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَإِذَا أَنَا بِقَبْضَةٍ مِنْ شَعِيرٍ نَحْوِ الصَّاعِ وَمِثْلِهَا قَرَظًا فِي نَاحِيَةِ الْغُرْفَةِ وَإِذَا أَفِيقٌ مُعَلَّقٌ - قَالَ - فَابْتَدَرَتْ عَيْنَاىَ قَالَ ‏"‏ مَا يُبْكِيكَ يَا ابْنَ الْخَطَّابِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ يَا نَبِيَّ اللَّهِ وَمَا لِي لاَ أَبْكِي وَهَذَا الْحَصِيرُ قَدْ أَثَّرَ فِي جَنْبِكَ وَهَذِهِ خِزَانَتُكَ لاَ أَرَى فِيهَا إِلاَّ مَا أَرَى وَذَاكَ قَيْصَرُ وَكِسْرَى فِي الثِّمَارِ وَالأَنْهَارِ وَأَنْتَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَصَفْوَتُهُ وَهَذِهِ خِزَانَتُكَ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ يَا ابْنَ الْخَطَّابِ أَلاَ تَرْضَى أَنْ تَكُونَ لَنَا الآخِرَةُ وَلَهُمُ الدُّنْيَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ بَلَى - قَالَ - وَدَخَلْتُ عَلَيْهِ حِينَ دَخَلْتُ وَأَنَا أَرَى فِي وَجْهِهِ الْغَضَبَ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَا يَشُقُّ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ شَأْنِ النِّسَاءِ فَإِنْ كُنْتَ طَلَّقْتَهُنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَكَ وَمَلاَئِكَتَهُ وَجِبْرِيلَ وَمِيكَائِيلَ وَأَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ مَعَكَ وَقَلَّمَا تَكَلَّمْتُ وَأَحْمَدُ اللَّهَ بِكَلاَمٍ إِلاَّ رَجَوْتُ أَنْ يَكُونَ اللَّهُ يُصَدِّقُ قَوْلِي الَّذِي أَقُولُ وَنَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ آيَةُ التَّخْيِيرِ ‏{‏ عَسَى رَبُّهُ إِنْ طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَنْ يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِنْكُنَّ‏}‏ ‏{‏ وَإِنْ تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلاَهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلاَئِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ‏}‏ وَكَانَتْ عَائِشَةُ بِنْتُ أَبِي بَكْرٍ وَحَفْصَةُ تَظَاهَرَانِ عَلَى سَائِرِ نِسَاءِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَطَلَّقْتَهُنَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنِّي دَخَلْتُ الْمَسْجِدَ وَالْمُسْلِمُونَ يَنْكُتُونَ بِالْحَصَى يَقُولُونَ طَلَّقَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم نِسَاءَهُ أَفَأَنْزِلُ فَأُخْبِرَهُمْ أَنَّكَ لَمْ تُطَلِّقْهُنَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ نَعَمْ إِنْ شِئْتَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَلَمْ أَزَلْ أُحَدِّثُهُ حَتَّى تَحَسَّرَ الْغَضَبُ عَنْ وَجْهِهِ وَحَتَّى كَشَرَ فَضَحِكَ وَكَانَ مِنْ أَحْسَنِ النَّاسِ ثَغْرًا ثُمَّ نَزَلَ نَبِيُّ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَنَزَلْتُ فَنَزَلْتُ أَتَشَبَّثُ بِالْجِذْعِ وَنَزَلَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَأَنَّمَا يَمْشِي عَلَى الأَرْضِ مَا يَمَسُّهُ بِيَدِهِ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّمَا كُنْتَ فِي الْغُرْفَةِ تِسْعَةً وَعِشْرِينَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّ الشَّهْرَ يَكُونُ تِسْعًا وَعِشْرِينَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فقُمْتُ عَلَى بَابِ الْمَسْجِدِ فَنَادَيْتُ بِأَعْلَى صَوْتِي لَمْ يُطَلِّقْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم نِسَاءَهُ ‏.‏ وَنَزَلَتْ هَذِهِ الآيَةُ ‏{‏ وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُولِي الأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ‏}‏ فَكُنْتُ أَنَا اسْتَنْبَطْتُ ذَلِكَ الأَمْرَ وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ آيَةَ التَّخْيِيرِ ‏.

 

 

 

Umar b. al-Khattab reported:

When Allah's Apostle (s) kept himself away from his wives, I entered the mosque, and found people striking the ground with pebbles and saying: Allah's Messenger (s) has divorced his wives, and that was before they were commanded to observe seclusion 'Umar said to himself: I must find this (actual position) today. So I went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said (to her): Daughter of Abu Bakr, have you gone to the extent of giving trouble to Allah's Messenger (s)? Thereupon she said: Son of Khattab, you have nothing to do with me, and I have nothing to do with you. You should look to your own receptacle. He ('Umar) said: I visited Hafsa daughter of 'Umar, and said to her: Hafsa, the (news) has reached me that you cause Allah's Messenger () trouble. You know that Allah's Messenger (s) does not love you, and had I not been (your father) he would have divorced you. (On hearing this) she wept bitterly. I said to her: Where is Allah's Messenger (s)? She said: He is in the attic room. I went in and found Rabah, the servant of Allah's Messenger (s), sitting on the thresholds of the window dangling his feet on the hollow wood of the date-palm with the help of which Allah's Messenger (s) climbed (to the apartment) and came down. I cried: 0 Rabah, seek permission for me from Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him). Rabah cast a glance at the apartment and then looked toward me but said nothing. I again said: Rabah, seek permission for me from Allah's Messenger (s). Rabah looked towards the apartment and then cast a glance at me, but said nothing. I then raised my voice and said: O Rabah, seek permission for me from Allah's Messenger (s). I think that Allah's Messenger (s) is under the impression that I have come for the sake of Hafsa. By Allah, if Allah's Messenger (s) would command me to strike her neck, I would certainly strike her neck. I raised my voice and he pointed me to climb up (and get into his apartment). I visited Allah's Messenger (s), and he was lying on a mat. I sat down and he drew up his lower garment over him and he had nothing (else) over him, and that the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked with my eyes in the store room of Allah's Messenger (s). I found only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal quantity of the leaves of Mimosa Flava placed in the nook of the cell, and a semi-tanned leather bag hanging (in one side), and I was moved to tears (on seeing this extremely austere living of the Holy Piophet), and he said: Ibn Khattab, what wakes you weep? I said: Apostle of Allah, why should I not shed tears? This mat has left its marks on your sides and I do not see in your store room (except these few things) that I have seen; Ceasar and Closroes are leading their lives in plenty whereas you are Allah's Messenger. His chosen one, and that is your store! He said: Ibn Khattab, aren't you satisfied that for us (there should be the prosperity) of the Hereafter, and for them (there should be the prosperity of) this world? I said: Yes. And as I had entered I had seen the signs of anger on his face, and I therefore, said: Messenger of Allah, what trouble do you feel from your wives, and if you have divorced them, verily Allah is with you, His angels, Gabriel, Mika'il, I and Abu Bakr and the believers are with you. And seldom I talked and (which I uttered on that day) I hoped that Allah would testify to my words that I uttered. And so the verse of option (Ayat al-Takhyir) was revealed. Maybe his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you..." (Ixv. 5). And if you back up one another against him, then surely Allah is his Patron, and Gabriel and the righteous believers, and the angels after that are the aidera (lvi. 4). And it was 'A'isha, daughter of Abu Bakr, and Hafsa who had prevailed upon all the wives of Allah's Prophet (way peace be upon him) for (pressing them for mote money). I said: Messenger of Allah, have you divorced them? He said: No. I said: Messenger of Allah, I entered the mosque and found the Muslims playing with pebbles (absorbed in thought) and saying: Allah's Messenger has divorced his wives. Should I get down and inform there that you have not divorced them? He said: Yes, if you so like. And I went on talking to him until I (found) the signs of anger disappeared on his face and (his seriousness was changed to a happy mood and as a result thereof) his face had the natural tranquillity upon it and he laughed and his teeth were the most charming (among the teeth) of all people. Then Allah's Apostle () climbed down and I also climbed down and catching hold of the wood of the palm-tree and Allah's Messenger () came down (with such ease) as if he was walking on the ground, not touching anything with his hand (to get support). I said: Messenger of Allah, you remained in your apartment for twenty-nine days. He said: (At times) the month consists of twenty-nine days. I stood at the door of the mosque and I called out at the top of my voice: The Messenger of Allah () has not divorced his wives (and it was on this occasion that this) verse was revealed:" And if any matter pertaining to peace or alarm comes within their ken, they broadcast it; whereas, if they would refer it to the Apostle and those who have been entrusted with authority amongst them, those of them who are engaged in obtaining intelligence would indeed know (what to do with) it" (iv 83). And it was I who understood this matter, and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to option (given to the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him in regard to the retaining or divorcing of his wives).

 

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Before we Criticize Ibn Kathir for his Interpretation of the verse, let look at the Fabricated narration ( I will tell you why later):

(1) First of all, How can the people Know Think that the prophet Divorced? Did his Wives do anything? did they talk about the prophets Affairs in Public? this would be Impossible.

(2) And here we see the Irony in Umar ibn Al Khattab, as He Goes to Hafsa (The Wife of the prophet ) and Threatens her and then making her sad, and then later on he has the thought that he wants to cut her neck? And this very Interesting Indeed, later on he cries because of the Mat that the prophet sits/Sleeps on is very Rough? So he Cries for the mat, but Would like to Kill the wive of the prophet? Why kind of Narration is this? If it is Sahih to the Sunnah then we can see the Hypocrisy of Umar very clearly.

 

(3) it would be No Surprise Ibn kathir read this and at least thought Whether it is Authentic or not, but sadly it is according to them, so how can a verse That mentions The Good news/bad news/ Happenings, be revealed about an Issue about divorce? can you please tell me how dear brother, But wait! whats more Ironic, Ibn Kathir Ignores the issue of "Uli al amr"? How does the narration he mentions from Sahih Muslim be Right about the verse? If Uli al amr is only Umar ibn al Khattab, then why not "Wali al amr" (One person) Rather than "uli al amr" (group of persons)?

 

 

 

Lets read what Tafsir al Qurtubi says, In Volume 6, page  479:

 

 

 

قوله تعالى: « ولو ردوه إلى الرسول وإلى أولي الأمر منهم » أي لم يحدثوا به ولم يفشوه حتى يكون النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم هو الذي يحدث به ويفشيه. أو أولو الأمر وهم أهل العلم والفقه؛ عن الحسن وقتادة وغيرهما. السدي وابن زيد: الولاة. وقيل: أمراء السرايا. « لعلمه الذين يستنبطونه منهم » أي يستخرجونه، أي لعلموا ما ينبغي أن يفشى منه وما ينبغي أن يكتم. والاستنباط مأخوذ من استنبطت الماء إذا استخرجته. والنبط: الماء المستنبط أول ما يخرج من ماء البئر أول ما تحفر. وسمي النبط نبطا لأنهم يستخرجون ما في الأرض. والاستنباط في اللغة الاستخراج، وهو يدل على الاجتهاد إذا عدم النص والإجماع كما تقدم.

 

 

 

According to tafsir al Qurtubi The Verse (83) in surah al Nisa when it mentions "Uli al amr", They are those the people of Knowledge (ilm) and Jurisprudence (Fiqh).........."   

 

 

 

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As we said earlier on the Analysis that we madeon post 891#:

"Some scholars claim that by Ūli’ l-’Amr is meant the religious leaders (Ālims). But, the Ālims are not infallible (Masūm). All the Ālims are prone to commit mistakes. That is the reason why there are differences in the religious rulings. Secondly infallibility is an inward quality which cannot be perceived by the people. That is the reason why the Ūli’ l-’Amr could only be designated by Allah (S.w.T.) and appointed by the Holy Prophet (S)." So on the bases of Obey someone and giving them news About whats false and whats right, Scholars are not the first in line. We are to Refer to Ahlulbayt (a.s) and Them alone, and Ask the Scholars who Follow the right path of Ahlulbayt (a.s), for as the prophet peace be upon him said, I have left in my Ummah Two Weighy things, Hold on to them and you will never go astray, the Book of Allah an My Ahlulbayt (a.s). 

 

 

 

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Statement:

 So the Shias obey and follow the Holy Prophet and the twelve Imams. So you still want to use this verse to prove Imamate?? Well if this verse is talking PRECISELY about your imams then I take it you have 13 infallible imams and NOT 12. (Bibi fatima r.a being one too according to pooya). Even shia mufassireen can't agree on one verse which talks PRECISELY about 12 imams, you know why?? Simple, because the verse is not precise. We are not told PRECISELY who the ulil amr are.

 

 

As you mentioned:

"careful study of the above references discloses that Ali, and after him, the remaining eleven Imams, in the progeny of the Holy Prophet, Ali and Fatimah, are the true successors of the Holy Prophet who have been referred to as ulil amr in this verse. So the Shias obey and follow the Holy Prophet and the twelve Imams."

 

 

(1) If you actually stop scan-reading and read carefully he means The Successor From the line of Fatima (a.s), at the first sentence he mentions Ali and after him the Eleven Imams, and Fatima (A.s) has a high status, as we know that whom every makes her angry makes prophet Angry. And Now doubt the Narration of the Khalifatan (you failed to Reject) says it all, The Two Successors are the Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the book of Allah, brother, Does that not tell you anything? please use your logic with Respect to the topic.

 

 

 

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Statement:
You really think Allah  would use this manner to talk about imam ali a.s being referred to as a future leader?? By using the word wali and not even mentioning his name nor saying he will be leader after prophet (s).Sorry but that's unacceptable. If you read in the tafsir I gave you regarding surah 3:7 it clearly said that a precise verse cannot be changed. 

 

(1) According to the Analysis I made on the previous page, Post 891# Wali means Mastership. (proven, and we have use all the terms, which we proved they ar Invalid.) Please go Reply to Analysis I made.

(2) The Analogy you made was False as Proven Above ^.
 

(3) We did not claim that we can Change Precise verses (N'aozbillah)

(4) your Denial is Getting you No where.
  

 

 

Statement:
Oh really!! Well what's wrong with the word ally or friend in there?? Are we not allies of Allah messenger and ali?? YES WE ARE. So sorry this verse can EASILY be changed.

 

(1) On the Day of Ghadeer Khum, wali means Successor (proven on post 891#)
(2) Ally and Friend is Invalid (post 891#) Please Reply to the Analysis.
(3) You Seem to Want the Word (Wali) To look the way you want it to be, and yet you have given us no proof that it means Ally or Friend, While I have given you Clear proof that it means MasterShip. 

 

 

Statement:
Now if Allah  "appointed ali a.s the why not use the same method as was used for talut r.a??? 

 

(1) Making that Comparison is Absurd, I now would ask you why did Allah Did not mention the names of the Successor Of Jesus (a.s)? Why did he say "Al-Hawareen"? Why not their names? Why did he not mention the name of the Successor of Prophet Solomon (a.s)? Why was he just mentioned as "The one who has the knowledge of the Scriptures?" Why not my by his name? Allah yet mentioned Him by his action and same with Imam Ali (a.s) who was mentioned by His action While giving his ring During Ruku. Can you tell me Where in the Quran it says prophet Luqman (a.s) is a "Nabi"? and yet we both agree Sunni & Shia that he is a prophet. So dear brother his is a false accusation and a failed Analogy.

(2) I have made a very clear Analysis in Why some names are not Mentioned in the Quran, please refer to post 891# (Proven, and no refutation Given So far)     

 

 

Statement:
Have you seen the verse where talut r.a is appointed and then look at 5:55. Do you honestly feel the same powerful message. NO 

 

(1) you are very Mistaken. First of all what has The "Powerful message" got to do with this? Do not make an Excuse.s
(2) The prophet Peace be upon him is Greater then all the prophets, And Imam Ali (a.s) and Allah and the  prophet are mentioned in the same verse as your Wali (mastership) is that not Good Enough for you? is this your Silly Excuse? very baseless Indeed.

 

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Statement:
I'm not going to even bother going into this too much. Any unbias person who reads the quran with an open heart can see it says INTENDS to PURIFY. Why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì INTEND to PURIFY AHLE BAYT from al rijz if they were BORN infallible?? Also in the dua/hadith the prophet (s) says PURIFY THEM. Which proves that prophet was infallible before this verse and this verse was sent for the other 4 personalities.  You can keep this verse if you want but it doesn't help you!! Just the words INTEND and PURIFY are sufficient to prove your imams were not BORN infallible. Which is a big hit to your aqidah. On the thread "did the prophet appoint a successor" I used a different method with you regarding verse 33:33. I asked you if the prophet (s) was born infallible why would Allah INTEND TO PURIFY him (s). You replied by saying the verse was sent for the other 4 personalities And you fell straight into my trap. I then cane at a different angle and asked you if the other 4 personalities were born infallible why would Allah INTEND TO PURIFY them. You then realised my trap and quickly switched your stance saying this verse was sent for all 5. I then posed the question again if the prophet (s) and the other 4 were born infallible then why did Allah INTEND TO PURIFY THEM. Knowing you were stuck you answered it means they were already purified.

 

 

"Trust me Brother, you don't even have a trap to begin With"

 

 

First of all you said in the Dua, The prophet said "Purify them, Which according to you meaning, that he was Purified before them So before I explain this Falsehood let me first mention the Narration of the Kisa:

 

 




فَلَّمَا ٱكْتَمَلْنَا جَمِيْعاً تَحْتَ ٱلْكِسَاءِ، اخَذَ ابِي رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ بِطَرَفَيِ ٱلْكِسَاءِ، وَاوْمَا بِيَدِهِ ٱلْيُمْنَىٰ إِلَىٰ ٱلسَّمَاءِ وَقَالَ: ” ٱللَّهُمَّ إِنَّ هٰؤُلاَءِ اهْلُ بَيْتِي وَخَاصَّتِي وَحَامَّتِي؛ لَحْمُهُمْ لَحْمِي، وَدَمُهُمْ دَمِي، يُؤْلِمُنِي مَا يُؤْلِمُهُمْ، وَيَحْزُنُنِيْ مَا يَحْزُنُهُمْ. انَا حَرْبٌ لِمَنْ حَارَبَهُمْ، وَسِلْمٌ لِمَن سَالَمَهُمْ، وَعَدُوُّ لِمَنْ عَادَاهُمْ، وَمُحِبٌّ لِمَنْ احَبَّهُمْ. إِنَّهُم مِنِّي، وَانَا مِنْهُمْ، فَٱجْعَلْ صَلَوَاتِكَ، وَبَرَكَاتِكَ، وَرَحْمَتَكَ،

وَغُفْرَانَكَ، وَرِضْوَانَكَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَيْهِمْ، وَاذْهِبْ عَنْهُمُ ٱلرِّجْسَ وَطَهِّرهُمْ تَطْهِيراً."

فَقَالَ ٱللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ: ”يَا مَلائِكَتِي! وَيَا سُكَّانَ سَمَاوَاتِي! إِنِّي مَا خَلَقْتُ سَمَاءً مَبْنِيَّةً، وَلاَ ارْضاً مَدْحِيَّةً، وَلاَ قَمَراً مُنِيراً، وَلاَ شَمْساً مُضِيئَةً، وَلاَ فَلَكاً يَدُوْرُ، وَلاَ بَحْراً يَجْرِي، وَلاَ فُلْكاً يَسْرِي إِلاَّ فِي مَحَبَّةِ هٰؤُلاَءِ ٱلْخَمْسَةِ ٱلَّذِيْنَ هُمْ تَحْتَ ٱلْكِسَاءِ.“

 

 

 

 

Getting together underneath the cloak, my father, the Prophet of Allah, held the two ends of the cloak and raised his right hand towards the heavens and prayed :
"O Allah, these are the people of my Household (Ahlul-Bayt). They are my confidants and my supporters.
Their flesh is my flesh and their blood is my blood.
Whoever hurts them, hurts me too.
Whoever displeases them, displeased me too.
I am at war with those at war with them.
I am at peace with those at peace with them.
I am the enemies of their enemies and
I am the friend of their friends.
They are from me and I am from them.
O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings, Benevolence, Forgiveness and Your pleasure upon me 
and upon them.
And remove impurity from them and keep them thoroughly pure"


Then the Lord, Almighty Allah said :"O My angels! O Residents of My Heavens, verily, I have not created the erected Sky, the stretched earth, the illuminated moon, the bright sun, the rotating planets, the flowing seas and the sailing ships, but for the love of these Five lying underneath the cloak"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) First of all dear brother Please Learn Arabic and learn the Definition of "Ahlulbayt", You must know that we a person says "My Ahlulbayt" that means him and his Close Members of the "Bayt" (house). And at the start of the Narration, The prophet peace be upon him asked For a Cloak as he Was feeling Iill, and in the same Dua that he was Saying, he also mentioned Him self, and then Allah Says " "O My angels! O Residents of My Heavens, verily, I have not created the erected Sky, the stretched earth, the illuminated moon, the bright sun, the rotating planets, the flowing seas and the sailing ships, but for the love of these Five lying underneath the cloak". Allah has Purified All the Individuals Under the cloak, and clearly if you at least have some Arabic Knowledge Ahlulabyt means the father and his Close members. And in They are Five who were under the cloak and not Four. So please Stop Contradicting your self Constantly.

(2) Second of all, is it Difficult to Understand that Allah what "He" Intends to do, He will do it? and that it has been Done? If your going to say, that Allah has not Purified them, you must have Trouble Reading or Knowing that the Actions of Allah, are done, and there can be no Limits to it, or any form of "Impossibility", if we said so, then that would be "Shirk". For it is clear when Allah (S.W.T) intends to do something we know that it Will be done, or it has been done. So now the Question Arises, When Where they Purified from all Uncleanness/Sins (Rijs)? Its clear to us that if we say that they Were Infallible at the time of the Cloak, this would mean the prophet was Fallible during the first steps in giving his message, and this would be impossible to think so, as he (we All agree upon) is Infallible Since birth. And if you Don't know very Well, According to Sahih Al Bukhari, One Who Angers Fatima, has Angered the prophet and Allah, So I ask you how can Allah get angry for the Angry of Fatima (a.s), This proves to us the High Position of Fatima, and no doubt that only such an Infallible Would Earn Such a Position, And Its clear that the Caliph after the prophet must be Infallible, and that is why the prophet peace be upon him said, That the Two Caliphs after him are/is the book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt (a.s), So dear brother all this proves to us the Infallibility of Ahlulbayt (a.s). You cannot have One Infallible and one Fallible under the same clock, and If you read the Dua of al Kisa, Allah says he has not created the the Sun, the Sky, The moon, the earth, Only with the love of the Five Under the cloak. and brother the prophet peace be upon him is at the state of war with those who Want/Commit War against Ahlulbayt (a.s), let us have a look at the Authentic narrations:
 

 
 
(1)
 
Narrated ibn Abi Shaiba, Ahmad, Al-Tirmidhi and said it is reliable, and ibn Jarir, ibn Munzir, Al-Tabarani, Al-Hakim and has authenticated it and ibn Mardawaih from Anas ibn Malik who said: "The Messenger of Allah (saw) used to stand by the door of the House of Bibi Faatima (s.a) whenever he was coming out for the morning prayers for six months saying":' {Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household(Ahlulbayt), and purify you, a thorough purification}.'
 
 
Source: Tafsir Durr Al-Mansoor. Vol. 12, Pg.# 42.
 
 
(2)
 
Narrated ibn Mardawaih from Abi Sa’eed Al Khudri who said: "When Imam Alee (a.s) entered upon Bibi Faatima (s.a) the Prophet (saw) came fourty mornings behind her door saying: "Asalamo Alaikom O Ahlulbayt wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu, prayers!, may Allah (swt) shower his mercy upon you! { Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household (Ahlulbayt), and purify you, a thorough purification }. I am in war with those who are in war with you, and I am in peace with those who are in peace with you."
 
(3)
 
Narrated ibn Jarir and ibn Mardawaih from Abi Al-Hamra who said: "I remember eight months in Madina that the Messenger of Allah (saw) came out of his house for morning prayers and even one time he did not miss to go to the door of Alee’s house, putting his hand on the side of the door saying: Prayers! Prayers! { Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household (Ahlulbait), and purify you, a thorough purification}.
 
 
(4)
 
Narrated ibn Mardawaih from ibn Abbas who said: "We witnessed the Messenger of Allah (swt) for nine months that he (saw) came everyday to the door of Imam Alee ibn Abi Taalib before every morning prayer saying: "Asalamo Alaikom wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu O Ahlulbayt!, '{ Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household (Ahlulbayt), and purify you, a thorough purification }', prayers! may Allah (swt) shower his mercy upon you!' everyday five times."
 
(5)
 
Narrated Al-Tabarani from Abi Al-Hamra who said: "I saw the Messenger of Allah (saw) for six months, coming to the door of Imam Alee (a.s) and Bibi Faatima (s.a) and reciting: '{ Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household (Ahlulbayt), and purify you, a thorough purification}.'"
 
Source: Tafsir Durr Al-Mansoor. Vol. 12, Pg. # 44.
 
 
 
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VERSE 9:100

All the commentators unanimously agree that "the first of the foremost" among women was Khadijah, wife of the Holy Prophet, and among men was Ali ibn abi Talib.

http://quran.al-islam.org

Talk about doing injustice to the verse and the sahaba!! 

What about ammar bin yasir r.a bilal r .a, hamza bin mutallib r.a etc etc. 

Truth is shia mufassireen know for a fact that if they start getting to deep into names they get twisted into their own web. Now let's see WHO also were the early converts ie; the forerunners AMONG the emigrants;

Most of the EARLY CONVERTS to Islam were “poor and weak.” But there were a few rich Muslims also like Hudhayfa bin Utba and Arqam bin Abil-Arqam. And all those men whom Abu Bakr brought into Islam – Uthman, Talha, Zubayr, Abdur Rahman ibn Auf, Saad ibn Abi Waqqas and Abu Obaidah ibn al-Jarrah – were also rich and powerful. They were members of the various clans of the Quraysh.

http://www.al-islam....islam-and-their

Ashra mubashra right there for ya!!!

Subhanallah. 

 

 

 

First and for most the verse:

وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

 

 

(1) first of all this does not mean all The Sahabah and the Ansar as you claim, Its Holy verses says "Min" meaning "From", and this puts a Restriction, and Limit, and now we know that Allah is referring to A certain amount of people "From" The Muhajreen and the Ansar.

(2) you have Failed to read the full text:

 

 

 

"his verse clearly proclaims the equality of muhajirs and ansar in general sense. The preference given to one individual over another by Allah or the Holy Prophet was due to the degree of submission to Allah and taqwa (piety). So the argument put forward by Umar bin Khattab at the time of deciding the issue of taking hold of the reins of power in the conference hall of Saqifa bani Sa-ada by reciting this verse without wa after ansar to establish the superiority of muhajirs over ansar (if wa is dropped it means the ansar should obey or follow the muhajirs) was unislamic or contrary to the teachings of the Quran. It is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari that when Obay ibn Ka-ab pointed out this omission Umar replied that he always thought this verse to be a proof of the muhajir's superiority over the ansar.

 

 

 

This verse and other verses like it in praise of the companions of the Holy Prophet, whether muhajirs or ansar, are applicable only to those who were sincere in faith. The hypocrites, who were also "companions" (sahabah) as per its definition laid down by the Muslim scholars, cannot be accepted as those praised by the Quran. So to say that all the companions, even the deserters, were true believers is illogical and contrary to historical facts.

 

 

All the commentators unanimously agree that "the first of the foremost" among women was Khadijah, wife of the Holy Prophet, and among men was Ali ibn abi Talib.

 

 

Hakim Nayshapuri, in his Mustadrak Alal Sahihayn, writes on page 22 of kitab al Ma-rafat:

"There is no difference of opinion among the historians that Ali ibn abi Talib was the first Muslim."

 

 

Ibn Abd al Bar, Qartabi, Suyuti, Tabarani, Bayhaqi and others also have confirmed it.

 

 

 

Please refer to the event of dawat dhil ashirah on page 4. Among others refer to Tarikh Tabari vol. 2, page 63, for authenticity of the tradition, according to which Ali was the first Muslim, and his faith was not only accepted by the Holy Prophet but also he was declared by him, whose words were always revelation revealed (Najm: 4), to be his brother, lieutenant and successor-and on that day obedience to him was made obligatory by the Holy Prophet for all the believers. Whosoever raises the issue of his age either does not know that whomsoever Allah wills He makes him His representative even if he is a baby in the cradle (Ali Imran: 46-Isa was a messenger of Allah in the cradle just as he was a messenger of Allah in maturity), or with ulterior motives, wants to introduce some one else as the first Muslim.

The Holy Prophet said:

"Ali prayed with me seven years before the other Muslims. He is the siddiq al akbar (the greatest truthful) and the faruq al azam (the greatest distinguisher of truth from falsehood). Whoso claims either of these titles is a liar."

 
 
 
 
 
________________________________

So dear brother, He is not saying the verse "Only" refer to Imam Ali (a.s) and Khadiji, also But Refering to the Those Companions who were Truthful and sincere to the prophet peace be upon him, so here you have no Hujja upon no one dear brother. Also the Article which you mentioned and that people who you mentioned that abu bakr brought to Faith, (And how is this True) so lets assume its True Let us took at the Figures you mentioned:

(1) Abu Obaidah ibn al-Jarrah (ابو عبيدة بن الجراح ): one of the people who Contributed to Shura, And gave Allegiance to Abu bakr and Umar and not Imam Ali (a.s), one of the people who took the right of Imam Ali (a.s).

 
(2) Saad ibn Abi Waqqas (سعد بن ابي وقاص): He is one of the Killers of Imam Hussain (a.s) he is one of those who Were the Generals in the Army of Yazeed so may Allah curse him. ِAnd he stood Against Imam Ali (a.s) on the Khilafa.

(3)  Abdur Rahman ibn Auf (عبد الرحمن بن عوف): "Was against Imam Ali (a.s) on the Day of Shura, he Opposed him and Support the Shaykhain, and Hated him, also Tried to Trick him, and did on the day of Shura, and chose Umar ibn al Khattab.

(4) Talha (طلحـة بن عبيد الله) : He Fought against Imam Ali (a.s) on the War of Jamal, and Went against the Caliph of his time who was Imam Ali (a.s). Also When Umar Became Caliph, He gave many Wealth of the Muslims To Talha without Judgement. Against the Caliphate of Imam Ali (a.s), and Was the reason of Uthmans death.

(5) Zubyr ( الزبير بن العوام): He was against the Khilafa of Imam Ali (a.s) and was against him in the War of Jamal with Talha, against the Caliph of his time Imam Ali (a.s), and was joined Was Talha in the killing of Uthman. And many other Crimes.

(6) Uthman (عثمان بن عفان): The Traitor who gave great amounts of Money to Bani Ummai'y'ah without judgement, Uthman torched Ammar Yasir and Abu Dhurr (The close Shabah to the prophet and Imam Ali (a.s), he was against Imam Ali (a.s) in the Caliphate.

_______________________________

So these are the people who Aby bakr Brought to Islam, Murders and the Oppressors, if you have knowledge about  the identity of the Companions Perhaps go and do your Research Brother, so now tell me how does this raise the Status of Abu bakr? tell me? Not one single bit. these people were the reason of Oppression of the Muslims, they were all against Ahlulbayt (a.s) who the prophet said, Hold on to them, and the book of Allah.

______________________________

(1) The narrations about the Ten Promised Paradise is Fabricated and even you should know this how can the killers of Imam Hussain (a.s) and the people who fought Imam Ali (A.s) go with him to heaven? Do you not know that who ever Fights against Imam Ali (A.s) has Fought against the prophet peace be upon him?        

And this narration has been Rejected many times please refer to the page (click here) 

 

 

 
 

 

 

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Statement:
Firstly it says QURAISH. Abu bakr umar usman bani Umayyad Abbasids etc were all from QURAISH  When they all rose to power they used this hadith saying caliphate is from QURAISH. If the holy prophet (s) was talking about his AHLE BAYT he would have said AHLE BAYT and not QURAISH. AHLE BAYT are QURAISH but so were many others as I have stated above.

 

 

First of all dear brother, Your Sadly trying to Avoid the fact that the Ahlulbayt are the true Khalifas after the prophet first of all and foremost the narration about the Two Successor is Authentic, I repeat: "Authentic" even correct by Al-Albani. Second of all dear brother, When the prophet said the Twelve Caliphs are from Quriah, that also does not mean that they are not Ahlulbayt (a.s). Third of all dear brother we all agree that Imam Mahdi (a.f) is the last Caliph, and according to the narrations I mentioned the Imam Mahdi (a.f) is from Ahlulbayt (a.s) yes or no? yes of course and we both agree on this. First of all let us take a look at some of the Authentic Narrations from Some of the Sunni Works:

 

 

The Prophet (s) said: “The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.” 

Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010, Tradition #4483; Sahih Muslim (Arabic), Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Saudi Arabian Edition, v3, p1453, Tradition #10

 

 

 

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Al-Juwayni (محمد بن حمويه الجويني الشافعي) in his Farai’d as-Simtayn,(فرائد السمطين) , reports the Following Volume 2, page 313:

 



The Prophet (s) said: “I am the chief of the Prophets and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al Mahdi.”

 

 الجويني(1) عن عبد الله بن عباس، قال: قال رسول الله (ص): "أنا سيّد النبيّين وعليّ بن أبي طالب سيّد الوصيّين، وأنّ أوصيائي بعدي اثنا عشر، أوّلهم عليّ بن أبي طالب وآخرهم المهدي".

ب ـ الجويني ـ أيضاً ـ بسنده عن ابن عباس، قال: قال رسول الله (ص): "إنّ خلفائي وأوصيائي وحجج الله على الخلق بعدي الاثني عشر أوّلهم أخي وآخرهم ولدي".

 

 

 

 

 

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We read in . Kanz al-umal, volume 14, page 588

 

 

Ali (as) said, “When a voice will come from skies that Truth is in the Family of Muhammad, Imam Madhi will come”

 

 

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I also Would like to add that:

 

 

 

Also Imam Al Dhabi mentioned in his book Tathkerat Al-Hafeth page 1505, that Imam Al-Juwayni: "The Imam, The One narrator, the most complete, pride of Islam, 'sadr al deen Ibrahem bn Muhammad bn homeya, Al-Juwayni al Shafe'i. Sheikh Suffi. And he was careful and strict on Narrations and demanding for Volumes (Parts of books), "Ghaz' The king became Muslim on his hands". 

 

 

 قال الذهبي في ترجمة شيوخه بتذكرة الحفاظ ص1505: الإمام، المحدّث الأوحد، الأكمل، فخر الإسلام، صدر الدين إبراهيم بن محمد بن حمويه الجويني الشافعي، شيخ الصوفية. وكان شديد الاعتناء بالرواية وتحصيل الأجزاء. أسلم على يده غازان الملك.

 

 

 

 

post-83202-0-13896100-1382740049_thumb.jpost-83202-0-50273100-1382740051_thumb.jpost-83202-0-59291300-1382740053_thumb.j

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

So dear brother with this proven facts and evidence, We know that the Twelve Caliphs must star with Imam Ali (a.s) and must end with Imam Mahdi (a.s) and no doubt, that the Ahlulbayt (a.s) are the Caliphs are they not? You still habe not rejected the narrations of the Two Successors. And this is an Authentic Narration. If your going to say that the Twelve Caliphs are Unjust, this would be impossible because first of all Imam Ali (a.s) was never Unjust and nor will Imam Mahdi (A.f) be as such. If your going to Claim that Abu bakr, Uthman, umar are on of the twelve Caliphs, Mind explaining to us, how they are appointed by Allah? because we have proven to you on post 891# on the previous page that only Allah has the right to Appoint whom he will to guide his servants. Also the Narration in sahih Muslim tells us that For long span of time, the world will not end until their are Twelve Caliphs Ruling so please tell me who is our Caliph of today? According to this narration he must b alive and living so please tell us with perfect Details. Also You seem to have been ignoring The Following:

(1) Who are Twelve Caliphs?

(2) Who is our Caliph today, at this time of the World?

(3) How are the Three Caliphs (Abu bakr, umar, Uthman) appointed by Allah?        

_____________________________________________


 

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@Just the Truth, 

 

Why did you spread rumours about me? I am sure you know for a fact that I am not a Quranist and there is a plethora of ahadith concerning Imamat in the Sunni collection.

 

I have in many instances refuted your arguments, my position is very simple there is no clear verse on Imamat in the Quran does that make me Sunni? 

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(bismillah)

 

 

Continuing my Sources about the Identity of Twelve Caliphs:
 

 

 

We read in Ya Nabi al-Muwaddat Volume 3, chapter 78:

 

The Prophet of Allah said that I am the Chief of Prophets, Ali is the Chief of Wasi, after me there will be 12 Wasi, 1st of them is Ali (a.s), last of them is Mahdi.

 

 

 

قوله (ص ) : " أنا سيد النبيين و علي سيد الوصيين و إن أوصيائي بعدي إثنى عشر أولهم علي و آخرهم المهدي "

 

المصادر : ينابيع الموده ج3 ، باب 78

 

 

 

 

 

post-83202-0-66407300-1382784327_thumb.jpost-83202-0-91483900-1382784330_thumb.j

 

 

 

 

And the Original Source of this as we mentioned in  Farai’d as-Simtayn,(فرائد السمطين).

 

 

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My dear brother Just the truth, i don't want you to leave me in my misguided ways and yes i would like you to correct my beahviour, if that's how you feel but you need to discuss and debate things.

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(bismillah)

Continuing my Sources about the Identity of Twelve Caliphs:

We read in Ya Nabi al-Muwaddat Volume 3, chapter 78:

The Prophet of Allah said that I am the Chief of Prophets, Ali is the Chief of Wasi, after me there will be 12 Wasi, 1st of them is Ali (a.s), last of them is Mahdi.

قوله (ص ) : " أنا سيد النبيين و علي سيد الوصيين و إن أوصيائي بعدي إثنى عشر أولهم علي و آخرهم المهدي "

المصادر : ينابيع الموده ج3 ، باب 78

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And the Original Source of this as we mentioned in Farai’d as-Simtayn,(فرائد السمطين).

Dear brother, there are certainly people out there that, when ever it comes to narrations, hadiths or sayings regarding the Ahlul Baith or the 12 Shia Imaam, they will object.

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Dear brother, there are certainly people out there that, when ever it comes to narrations, hadiths or sayings regarding the Ahlul Baith or the 12 Shia Imaam, they will object.

 

 

 

I know my dear brother, but Source Where I quoted that from, Was one of the Sunni scholars that were approved By Imam al Dhab'i (also known for correcting Mustadrak al Hakim). If they have knowledge in the Science of Narrations they would not refuse, their Objection would be Chain, Well the Chain is Perfect and checked. Also Ahlul-Sunnah have many Different Opinions On Who are the Twelve Imams, and that is why when you ask them, Their Answer is Either Nothing or Invalid.  

May Allah Reward you For your Efforts, In reality, this is only a small portion of what I can put up, due to my time limit, as I don't have time to put them all up, but I will try as soon as Possible to do so Inshall'a.

 (Wasalam)

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But brother Islam History, when it comes to the Sahaba, especially the first three Khulafaa, anything (narrations, hadiths or sayings) regarding them will be accepted without any hesitation, suspicion, objection or doubt. Even things that don't even make sense, will be accepted.

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But brother Islam History, when it comes to the Sahaba, especially the first three Khulafaa, anything (narrations, hadiths or sayings) regarding them will be accepted without any hesitation, suspicion, objection or doubt. Even things that don't even make sense, will be accepted.

 

 

I agree, that is why on page 32-33 post 819# I posted narrations from Abu bakr and Umar, Saying that Ali (a.s) is Our Muwala, on the day of Ghadeer Khum, and our Master. And they even Congratulated him for that. So There are many Narrations Really.

(wasalam) 

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This is something beyond my understanding that, when it comes to the Sahaba, especially the first three Khulafaa, everything is automatically accepted and used as examples but when it comes to the Ahlul Baith and the Shia 12 Imaam then, suspicion and doubt just automatically cicks in.

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This is something beyond my understanding that, when it comes to the Sahaba, especially the first three Khulafaa, everything is automatically accepted and used as examples but when it comes to the Ahlul Baith and the Shia 12 Imaam then, suspicion and doubt just automatically cicks in.

 

 

The Irony also, is that When you look at the Companions they Narrate from, Little do they Narrate from Abu thar, Al Miqdad, Ammar ibn yasir, Salman al Farisi, and others who have Refused to pledge Allegiance to Abu bakr and Umar. You Will only find 2-7 Narrations from Salman in Bukhari, While we have 1000+ narrations from Salman, Abu thar...and etc. Ironic really.

 

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Brother Islam History, i have been accused of tehreef. I never ever said that, the translation of "fa inn tanazathum fee shay inn" is "and if you disagree on anything within this". I said the meaning, according to my point of view, is " and if you disagree (amongst yourselves) on anything (within this)". Now if brother Just the truth isn't interested in my opinion then, he has to put forward who he is interested in and who he accepts. But then one can easily say that, i do not agree with this Mufassir, Mufti, Maulana, Ayatullah, Musannif, Molvi etc. Then where do we go from here???

The best thing is that you put your thought, opinion and point of view forward and have respect and regard for the other, just as you want for yourself, then discuss the matter, with a positive attitude and a pleasant manner. This is exactly what i wanted and expected, from brother Just the truth.

The Irony also, is that When you look at the Companions they Narrate from, Little do they Narrate from Abu thar, Al Miqdad, Ammar ibn yasir, Salman al Farisi, and others who have Refused to pledge Allegiance to Abu bakr and Umar. You Will only find 2-7 Narrations from Salman in Bukhari, While we have 1000+ narrations from Salman, Abu thar...and etc. Ironic really.

Some of the Ahle Sunnah, especially Sipa-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Janghvi, boast and brag about, being so loyal towards the Sahaba and have a very extreme way of showing that loyalty. But when it comes to the likes of Abu Zar, Miqdad, Salmaan, Ammar, Avais etc, suddenly their loyalty towards the Sahaba vanishes. It makes you wonder how much they really are in love with the Sahaba. They are just using Sahabiath as a platform and an excuse to launch attacks on Shiaism based on absolute and baseless hatred.

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Thanks for your support brother

Thanks for what support??? For accusing others, then not being able to stand your ground??? In what way has he supported you??? By presenting something??? By taking part in a discussion??? By putting something constructive and positive forward??? In exactly what way has he supported you???

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Brother Islam History, i have been accused of tehreef. I never ever said that, the translation of "fa inn tanazathum fee shay inn" is "and if you disagree on anything within this". I said the meaning, according to my point of view, is " and if you disagree (amongst yourselves) on anything (within this)". Now if brother Just the truth isn't interested in my opinion then, he has to put forward who he is interested in and who he accepts. But then one can easily say that, i do not agree with this Mufassir, Mufti, Maulana, Ayatullah, Musannif, Molvi etc. Then where do we go from here???

The best thing is that you put your thought, opinion and point of view forward and have respect and regard for the other, just as you want for yourself, then discuss the matter, with a positive attitude and a pleasant manner. This is exactly what i wanted and expected, from brother Just the truth.

Some of the Ahle Sunnah, especially Sipa-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Janghvi, boast and brag about, being so loyal towards the Sahaba and have a very extreme way of showing that loyalty. But when it comes to the likes of Abu Zar, Miqdad, Salmaan, Ammar, Avais etc, suddenly their loyalty towards the Sahaba vanishes. It makes you wonder how much they really are in love with the Sahaba. They are just using Sahabiath as a platform and an excuse to launch attacks on Shiaism based on absolute and baseless hatred.

 

 

yea I noticed, that's Why Included the Issue of Tahreef in my reply on the previous page, All in all, if people want to learn, they are more than welcome, but those who prefer to Deny and us Excuses to Accuse others, then time as passed by without reason. 

Knowing the Identity of the Companions is a Crucial issue, and one that is most of the time side-stepped and skipped for no reason, due to the fact of one Failing to reflect upon history and Authentic Traditions.

(wasalam)    

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Those who fight against the truth will perish, its about time the veils of hypocrisy will be lifted! 

 

May Allah hasten the appearance of Qaim Aale Muhammad Imam Al-Mahdi (as) :)

 

 

 

Allahum'a Aje'l Le'Walye'ika al Far'aj, be Haqi Muhammad wa Al'e Muhammad!

 

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If you look at replies of JusttheTruth and IslamHistory you will see how the latter replies with copy-paste of long articles, mostly irrelevant text.

As for brother Ameen; he never gets to the point. If you ask him one thing he gives ten different replies without addressing the main point.

Brother i'm still waiting for you to come and address these accusations. Or are you one of those who accuses and then runs for it???

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Brother Ameen where is your answer. I asked to give a link to your answer so I can read it.

I've just given you your post. You accused me of never getting to the point. I've asked you for an explanation and an example.

Take a look at your post on the 24th of October at 7:23pm.

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Brother Ameen you are not understanding what I am saying. 

 

I said you didn't get to the point when I asked you a question in this thread: 

Check this:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/?p=2640708

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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Brother Ameen you are not understanding what I am saying. 

 

I said you didn't get to the point when I asked you a question in this thread: 

Check this:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/?p=2640708

 

 

 

Yes The Quran is Our Guide and the Ahlulbayt (a.s) is our Guide and no doubt we must follow the Orders of the prophet (pbuh)

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aSalaam Aleykum

Isn't the Quran our guide? Isn't the Prophet (saw) and his Sunnah our guide?

If you claim there must be a divinely appointed figure after Prophet (saw) to guide people then where is your guide today?

There are 3 questions that you have asked, which i have not just answered but also addressed in detail but here we go again.

Question 1, isn't the Quran our giude??? Answer 1, yes it is. Question 2, isn't the Prophet (pbuh) and his Sunnah our guides??? Answer 2, yes they are. Question 3, if you claim that there is a divinely appointed figure after the Prophet (pbuh), to guide the people then, where is yoir guide??? Answer 3, the divinely appointed figure is Hazrath Imaam Mahdi (as). Where is your guide??? He is in occultation.

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Ok brother Abul Hussain Hassani, are you satisfied with the simple answers??? I gave you the answers in great detail before but you didn't seem to be happy. So i hope you are happy with the simple answers now, or do we still have a problem????

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I don't think their going to reply.

Me nietherbrother but it's worth a try. He accused me of never getting to the point, when i gave him a detailed response. Now he doesn't want to explain his accusation or discuss my answers to his questions, which he cried out that, he didn't recieve.

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