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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Just as in school, college or university you have a subject, then a text book and a teacher concerning that subject, you have religion (Islam), a text book (Quran) and a teacher (Muhammad, pbuh), concerning that religion (Islam).

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Please Don't make a false Statement, Can you please Quote some of "The Bad things We Say" Dear brother?

 

please provide Hard Evidence? No lies please.  

 

Here you go:

 Grand Ayatollah Al Khoei, he goes on to say that non-12rs are Muslims in the Dunya and kaffirs in the Akhira:

"We had already spoke about The Najasah(uncleanliness) of all the teams who differ with the Twelver Shias and their Tahara. And in brief that denying the Wilayah for ''all'' the Imams PBUT or ''some of them'''' is like denying the message and it brings Kufr and Najasah? Or that Denying The Wilayah necessarily means leaving Iman (Belief) with the Hukm of his Islam and Tahara. What is popular amongst the scholars Is the Tahara of those who differ with us Although the author of the book "Al Hada'eq" May Allah sanctify his secret has attributed to the modern scholars like al Sayyed al murtada that it was popular amongst them That those who differ are Kouffar and Najis even the ''other'' Shia teams(1). What we can use to prove the Najasah of those who differ with us is divided into three parts, Firstly what we Read in Countless and plenty of Narrations that those who differ with the Imams are Kouffar."

"And thus Other Shia teams like Zaidiyah, Kisaniyah, Ismaliyah and others their ruling is the same as that of those who differ with us because there is no difference between denying Wilayah of the Imams altogether and between accepting it for ''some ''Imams and denying it for other Imams, and it was mentioned that he who denies'' one'' denies'' all'', and I know that Denying this Wilayah does not mean Kufr or Najasah nor does denying Wilayah for some of the Imams, What is correct is The Tahara of all those who differ with the Twelver Shia and their Islam Based on what is ''Apparent'' Although ÍN REALITY They are All Kouffar and we have called them Muslims in The Dunyah and Kaffirs on The Day of judgement."

-Source: kitab al tahara, Khoei, 2/87.

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ISLAMIC history and AMEEN I will answer you both tomorrow.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear bros Just the Truth,

1. Read the difference of meaning in Emaan and Muslim as explained by Bro Ameen in post no 753 and your response was like stop derailing the threat in post 754. I think you just ignored the exact relationship between the two verses which Bro Ameen has tried to point out. Can you please give your version of understanding on this issue?

2. Bro Ameen has quoted the verse 49:14 in context of your question regarding how one does not gets out of the folds of Islam, If someone rejects Imamaat as Usol e Din? And exactly the same way Surat Al Hujraat verse 14 talks about the difference of momin and muslim. So you can be a muslim but to become a momin you have to accept the wilayah of Imam Ali (as) and Imamaat of all other 11 Imam (as). But if you don't then you can at best can only be termed as muslim, So a muslim can be a momin or just simple muslim or even can be a munfiq as whole surah is there addressing the same creed of muslims termed as munafiqeen.

3. Now, considering your point of view, regarding the second part, which says if you differ on anything (according to you) refer back to Allah SWT and Prophet (pbuh). So brother how can we refer back, we do not have the capability to talk and listen directly with/from Allah SWT and nor we have Prophet (pbuh) among us in Human form, and to our worse equation we are differing with each other on translation and understanding of a word of Quran, so we are left with what sunnah as per your understanding. If you differ on this please let us know.

4. Foregoing the para 3, if only thing we are left is sunnah (not shia version as we have Ahle Bait), lets seek the answer than from sunnah. And what Bro Islam History has provided you are so many hadiaaths on the same verse throughout this whole 30 pages and so that it really took a lot of time to read all of them. But still you have not refuted anyone of the hadiaath.

5. Well your argument is based on Quran verse 4 : 59, but the same verse over which, you and bro Islam History and Bro Ameen are differing is saying if you differ in anything (according to your accepted version of translation) please refer it back to Allah SWT and Prophet (pbuh). Bro Just the Truth, once Bro Islam History refer back to Prophet (pbuh) as per para 3, you come up with an excuse please bring a Quran verse, and once Bro Ameen refers you verse 49 : 14, you yet again finds another excuse please do not derail the threat....

6. Seriously bro what is your logic i have failed to understand. Kindly if you can explain how to refer back to Allah SWT and Prophet (pbuh) in a case where the difference is about the understanding of a verse of Holy Quran. And if your answer is sunnah of Prophet (pbuh) as explained earlier then kindly first refute all the hadiaaths posted by Bro Islam History and if Quran is the source than can you please explain the meaning of words Alif Lam Meem, And all other questions raised by Bro Islam History and Bro Ameen on the issue in hand from Quraan. Thanks in advance.

7. Anyways you brought up a healthy discussion and because of the same very discussion i have read / received (courtesy Bro Islam History), so many hadiaaths from Ahle Sunnah confirming our stance on the verse. JazakAllah all of you for keeping this threat alive for over two months and so.

Bro keep following the thread and everything will become apparent. Inshallah. I'm not here for amusement but have a lot to bring to the table brother and as for someone who's been sitting on the sidelines and watching this thread "flow" I don't think you have much of a right to judge me.

Having said this please keep following this thread. Also I don't know how you defend and speak highly of AMEEN since he has done blatant tehreef. He says FEE SHAYIN in verse 4:59 means in anything WITHIN THIS when it means IN ANYTHING. He has tried to justify his stance by saying that "within this" means the appoinent of the ulil amr ie; if you differ in this. When me you and any sane human know this is wrong and changing the meaning of a verse is blatant tehreef.

Edited by Just the truth

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Dear brother Just the Truth, in the Sh'afa'i School of thought, Imam Al Sha'afa'i Describes the Shia as heretics and people of Falsehood:

We read in "Minhaj Al Sunnah al Nabawiya" - Ibn Taymiyah (page 29)

وقال الإمام الشافعي- رحمه الله-:"لم أر أحدا أشهد بالزور من الرافضة".

Imam Ash-Shafi'i: On one occasion Imam Shafi'ee said concerning the Shia, "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Raafidi*

proof8.JPG proof7.JPG

So my dear brother if we are considered as hypocrites in the Sha'afa'i School of thought, then we are definitely out of the Islam (according to the Sunnah) does this sound logical to you?!

THE ISLAMIC HISTORY YOU ARE BRINGING BOOKS which I will you show you that our imams have either made a mistake as they are fallible or or could have a different meaning to them. Let me explain.

Maybe imam Shafi made a mistake of stereo typing against all shia when seeing some shia committing kufr. I mean like look nowadays when you see a Muslim bomb a building don't people say look at these "Muslim" terrorist instead of calling them terrorist. Or if we see some Pakistani do something wrong we say "these Pakistanis are trouble makers".

As for imam abu hanifa then he DEFINATELY made a mistake because denying abu bakr caliphate is not kufr. Look at the eg of Malik bin nuwayrah r.a when Khalid r.a killed him umar said to Khalid I will stone you to death for spilling the blood of a "Muslim", and we all know mil. In nuwayrah did not accept the caliphate of abu bakr r.a. So if Malik r.a was not considered a kafir by our great caliphs then neither are you and maybe abu hanifa made an emotional mistake.

You bought me none sense as "proof" I will proof through logic and sense that we are kafir according to shia islam. Wait for my reply. Inshallah

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Wa'alaikum Assalaam dear brother. Thanks for the questions and unlike brother Just the truth, i'm going to, directly and straightly answer them.

I really don't understand why you're not bringing a translation and tafsir. I've asked you 10 plus times, what's wrong. Instead you're trying to lecture me in momin and Muslim while you don't realise you are surprise surprise misunderstanding momin and Muslim. Muslim is a person who believes in ALL Usul's and furus while a momin is a practicing Muslim.

Imamah is higher than salah right?? Then tell me if I reject salah am I a Muslim?? Obviously NO. So if rejecting salah which is below Imamate takes me outside islam then how does rejecting the greater (Imamate) keep in islam??

Actually let me explain to you why brother. We have been ordered by Allah (swt) to pray salah so it's now hujjah on us. Tell me where it says believe/follow imams?? If such a verse exists then sunni are kafir for rejecting it if not then Imamate is not an usul. Take your pick. Now have I answered you DIRECTLY.

Now you answer me directly by bringing me a translation and tafseer for verse 4:59.

Edited by Just the truth

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY YOU ARE BRINGING BOOKS which I will you show you that our imams have either made a mistake as they are fallible or or could have a different meaning to them. Let me explain.

Maybe imam Shafi made a mistake of stereo typing against all shia when seeing some shia committing kufr. I mean like look nowadays when you see a Muslim bomb a building don't people say look at these "Muslim" terrorist instead of calling them terrorist. Or if we see some Pakistani do something wrong we say "these Pakistanis are trouble makers".

As for imam abu hanifa then he DEFINATELY made a mistake because denying abu bakr caliphate is not kufr. Look at the eg of Malik bin nuwayrah r.a when Khalid r.a killed him umar said to Khalid I will stone you to death for spilling the blood of a "Muslim", and we all know mil. In nuwayrah did not accept the caliphate of abu bakr r.a. So if Malik r.a was not considered a kafir by our great caliphs then neither are you and maybe abu hanifa made an emotional mistake.

You bought me none sense as "proof" I will proof through logic and sense that we are kafir according to shia islam. Wait for my reply. Inshallah

 

 

(1) These are from your very own Scholars My dear brother, and MY conclusion here, is that these both schools of thought are making it is 'Mandatory' To Believe in Abu bakr, Umr, Uthman, and so on, So in this issue I ask you whether How can they make such a statement, where is the proof from The Quran That it is Mandatory to believe in the Caliphs, if you follow these schools of thought, then Do you accept them? Do you Reject them? If you Do Which school of thought do you accept?

(2) please bring your proof from our Scholars and not mere  people that are Extremist.

​ekhs and    

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Here you go:

 Grand Ayatollah Al Khoei, he goes on to say that non-12rs are Muslims in the Dunya and kaffirs in the Akhira:

"We had already spoke about The Najasah(uncleanliness) of all the teams who differ with the Twelver Shias and their Tahara. And in brief that denying the Wilayah for ''all'' the Imams PBUT or ''some of them'''' is like denying the message and it brings Kufr and Najasah? Or that Denying The Wilayah necessarily means leaving Iman (Belief) with the Hukm of his Islam and Tahara. What is popular amongst the scholars Is the Tahara of those who differ with us Although the author of the book "Al Hada'eq" May Allah sanctify his secret has attributed to the modern scholars like al Sayyed al murtada that it was popular amongst them That those who differ are Kouffar and Najis even the ''other'' Shia teams(1). What we can use to prove the Najasah of those who differ with us is divided into three parts, Firstly what we Read in Countless and plenty of Narrations that those who differ with the Imams are Kouffar."

"And thus Other Shia teams like Zaidiyah, Kisaniyah, Ismaliyah and others their ruling is the same as that of those who differ with us because there is no difference between denying Wilayah of the Imams altogether and between accepting it for ''some ''Imams and denying it for other Imams, and it was mentioned that he who denies'' one'' denies'' all'', and I know that Denying this Wilayah does not mean Kufr or Najasah nor does denying Wilayah for some of the Imams, What is correct is The Tahara of all those who differ with the Twelver Shia and their Islam Based on what is ''Apparent'' Although ÍN REALITY They are All Kouffar and we have called them Muslims in The Dunyah and Kaffirs on The Day of judgement."

-Source: kitab al tahara, Khoei, 2/87.

 

 

 

(1) A book with the Title "Kitab Al Tahara" Does not Exist. Your sources are Obviously Wrong, Here is the Official book of List Of Sayed Al Khoei (Qas):     http://alkhoei.net/arabic/khlib/index.php   and In List form: http://alkhoei.net/arabic/khlib/index.php

 

 

(2) Kitab "Al Tahara" is a Section in the book 'التنقيح في شرح العروة الوثقى' ( AlTanqe'eh F'e Shr'e'h Al'Orwat al Withqa

 

(3) In This In Volume 2; Page 87, The Context which you mentioned, Does not Exist:

http://alkhoei.net/arabic/khlib/viewbook/view.php?bid=59

(4) here is the PDF Version The book: 

http://alkhoei.net/arabic/khlib/BookFiles/pdf/PDF-Moso3e-G02.pdf

And we find the Context you used Does not Exist.

(5) your using Fabricated sources or You have Given Wrong Reference.

(wasalam)

 

 

 

 

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I really don't understand why you're not bringing a translation and tafsir. I've asked you 10 plus times, what's wrong. Instead you're trying to lecture me in momin and Muslim while you don't realise you are surprise surprise misunderstanding momin and Muslim. Muslim is a person who believes in ALL Usul's and furus while a momin is a practicing Muslim.

Imamah is higher than salah right?? Then tell me if I reject salah am I a Muslim?? Obviously NO. So if rejecting salah which is below Imamate takes me outside islam then how does rejecting the greater (Imamate) keep in islam??

Actually let me explain to you why brother. We have been ordered by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to pray salah so it's now hujjah on us. Tell me where it says believe/follow imams?? If such a verse exists then sunni are kafir for rejecting it if not then Imamate is not an usul. Take your pick. Now have I answered you DIRECTLY.

Now you answer me directly by bringing me a translation and tafseer for verse 4:59.

Brother Just the truth, for the 11th plus time, i have given you a translation plus meaning of verse 4:59. What's wrong??? Let me tell you what is wrong, it's you who in return isn't putting his translation and meaning forward. This is what's wrong.

I've put my translation and meaning forward, now it's about time you put yours, so we can move forward and discuss things.

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Also brother Just the Truth, If you Reject the Jurisprudence given from the Hanafi school and the Sha'afi'e School, then if both of those scholars were alive, they would reject you from their Schools. So now Does this mean you follow the Malaki school of thought? or the Hanbali school of thought? It would be easier if you Identified your self so we are able to quote from the Works of your Own scholars, so you can accept it.

(wasalam)  

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(1) These are from your very own Scholars My dear brother, and MY conclusion here, is that these both schools of thought are making it is 'Mandatory' To Believe in Abu bakr, Umr, Uthman, and so on, So in this issue I ask you whether How can they make such a statement, where is the proof from The Quran That it is Mandatory to believe in the Caliphs, if you follow these schools of thought, then Do you accept them? Do you Reject them? If you Do Which school of thought do you accept?

(2) please bring your proof from our Scholars and not mere people that are Extremist.

​ekhs and

1. Following a fallible blindly is not part of islam, so I disagree with imam abu hanifa. As for imam Shafi it looks to me like he may have mistakenly Stereo typed.

2. I have not bought anything my brother so I don't know what you're talking about.

Also brother Just the Truth, If you Reject the Jurisprudence given from the Hanafi school and the Sha'afi'e School, then if both of those scholars were alive, they would reject you from their Schools. So now Does this mean you follow the Malaki school of thought? or the Hanbali school of thought? It would be easier if you Identified your self so we are able to quote from the Works of your Own scholars, so you can accept it.

(wasalam)

.... And why would they reject me?? If they were alive today I would say to them that in my humble opinion I strongly disagree with you and disagreeing with a fallible means nothing.

Brother Just the truth, for the 11th plus time, i have given you a translation plus meaning of verse 4:59. What's wrong??? Let me tell you what is wrong, it's you who in return isn't putting his translation and meaning forward. This is what's wrong.

I've put my translation and meaning forward, now it's about time you put yours, so we can move forward and discuss things.

AMEEN I've given you my translation numerous times, please stop wasting time and bring a translation and tafseer from scholars to prove your stance on fee shayin

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Statement:

1. Following a fallible blindly is not part of islam, so I disagree with imam abu hanifa. As for imam Shafi it looks to me like he may have mistakenly Stereo typed.

 

.... And why would they reject me?? If they were alive today I would say to them that in my humble opinion I strongly disagree with you and disagreeing with a fallible means nothing.

 

If you Reject Those Schools Of thought, Then Which School of thought do you follow? The Malki? Or Hanbali? They Would Reject you because according to them What they are saying is True (To them) So in your Position You Rejecting them, they would Reject you out of their Schools.

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1. Following a fallible blindly is not part of islam, so I disagree with imam abu hanifa. As for imam Shafi it looks to me like he may have mistakenly Stereo typed.

2. I have not bought anything my brother so I don't know what you're talking about.

.... And why would they reject me?? If they were alive today I would say to them that in my humble opinion I strongly disagree with you and disagreeing with a fallible means nothing.

AMEEN I've given you my translation numerous times, please stop wasting time and bring a translation and tafseer from scholars to prove your stance on fee shayin

Brother Just the truth, you want me to bring you translation and tafseer of a scholar??? Tell me which scholar do you accept and aprove??? In this very post you have said that, you disagree with Imam Abu Hanifa, on this particular matter and you think that Imaam Shafi made a mistake, on that particular matter. So what is the point of me bringing in anything, from any heavy weight, when you are openly going to disagree with it.

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So dear brothers and sisters, you have a subject, for example chemistry. You also have a book and a teacher. Now if a pupil, be it school college or university, disregarded the subject, didn't bother with the text book and was not interested in the teacher and his lessons (verbal or practical) then, it would be obvious that, the pupil would be expelled from the school, college or uni.

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Now if a pupil is interested in the subject, is bothered about what's in the text book and does care about the teacher and his lessons but the pupil isn't interested in tuition, is not bothered about the extra classes and doesn't care what the tutor has to say then, it is down to the pupil. It is the pupils loss but will the pupil be expelled from school, college or uni???

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If the pupil of a school or a student of college or university, isn't interested in tuition, isn't bothered about the extra classes (evening classes), doesn't care about the the tutor and what he has to say then, that is down to the pupil or student. It is their loss and if they believe they can and want to go it alone or want to figure out, anything additional or confusing for themselves or want to rely on other means instead of, what the school, college or university has arranged for them, then that is down to them but they still will remain a pupil of the school or a student of college or university.

Now lets look at this from another angle. We have a subject (Islam). We also have a book (Quran) and a teacher as well (Muhammad, pbuh). Now if a pupil or student isn't interested in or anything related to the subject (Islam) or the book (Quran) or the teacher (Muhammad, pbuh) then, it is obvious that, you no longer remain a pupil or student of this particular school, college or university.

Now the incharge (Allah) along with the administration (Angels) of this particular university have their subject (Islam). They also have arranged tuition (Imaamath) and have tutors (Imaams), for the benefit and interest of the students (Muslims) that, if there is anything additional or extra they (Muslims) want to know or anything they (Muslims) are confused or quarrel about, or if they're not sure about something, regarding the subject (Islam) or the book (Quran) or the teachers (Muhammad, pbuh) teachings (Sunnah) then, they car refer to tuition (Imaamath) and turn to tutors (Imaams) arranged by the management and administration of this particular university itself.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

ULIL AMR

Firstly brother id like to start of by saying that if you had ONE precise verse regarding Imamate of your 12 imams you wouldn't reply with such a long reply. You can keep claiming that I havnt proven anything if that helps you sleep better.

In the near future could you please keep your replies a bit shorter, as you may have bags of time on your hands but some of us have a life outside shia chat forum.

Brother ISLAMIC history you need to understand that I definately do not enjoy being on this forum all the time

And intention was never to get dragged into such a long and lengthy dialogue. You leave people no choice as you go from thread to thread insulting sunnis by saying we runaway. This is not a nice thing to say brother and by saying such things you probably don't realise but you actually make us angry. This is the reason I am stubbornly sticking to this dialogue/debate otherwise brother I have no interest in long and lengthy debates nor do I have the time.

Id like to begin by apologising if I've offended you in anyway.

YOU SAID

If your Saying that not verse Requires Tafsir, you must be At ignorance, No matter how simple the verse is in the Book of Allah, It still has a sea of meanings and Knowledge to take from, for What Allah says is beyond what Human Mouth at the extent of indescribable. Brother Having knowledge of the history of revelation of the verses offers us a clearer understanding of the meaning of each verse.

MY ANSWER

My brother you're missing my point. When it comes to a precise verse then obviously Allah (swt) is telling us precisely what he (swt) wants us to believe or do. We should not need a scholar to tell us exactly what Allah (swt) is saying. Let's see what shia tafseer has to say about this:

Most of the verses of the Quran are CLEAR and DECISIVE. There is NO AMBIGUITY in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can NEITHER BE CHANGED NOR MODIFIED. ANY MAN OF AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE can understand and follow them.

ANY man of average intelligence can understand them, ie; we don't need scholars or ali a.s to interpretate them for us.

"So they cannot be changed nor modified". So let's see if verse 5:55 cannot be modified. The word wali has several meanings.

Ulil amr. Anybody can claim this position as all it means is "those in authority" ie; parents scholars leaders etc etc.

Also when it comes to ulul amr, since Allah (swt) never told us specifically who they are ie; imams (according to shia brothers) then if Allah (swt) had atleast given us one verse condemning is if we disobey them like there are verses condemning us if we disobey Allah (swt) and prophet (pbuh) then the sunni argument would have fallen apart.

As for the unspecific verses then I have never till this day doubted that ali a.s was very knowledgable regarding quran paak, but this does not mean other sahaba were clueless.

http://quran.al-islam.org

YOU SAID

“(He - Allah - turned in mercy also) to the three who were left behind; (they felt guilty) to such a degree that the Earth seemed constrained to them for all its spaciousness, and their souls seemed straitened to them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from Allah (and no refuge), but to Him. Then He turned to them that they might repent, for Allah is Oft-Returning, the Most Merciful.”

There is no doubt that the meaning of the verse is clear, however a person would definitely have, in regards to the (deeper) meaning of this verse, the desire to know the following things:

MY ANSWER

I find it rather insulting how you have hand picked this verse just because it refers to three sahaba who obviously made a mistake and begged for forgiveness.

Also you have massively misunderstood the tafsir to verse 3:7

Lets read again.

Most of the verses of the Quran are CLEAR and DECISIVE. There is NO AMBIGUITY in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can NEITHER BE CHANGED NOR MODIFIED. ANY MAN OF AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE can understand and follow them.

The flaw to your argument is that this verse is not talking about any foundations or furus but here Allah (swt) is merely telling us what some sahaba had done. So there is really no need for it to be precise to the extent as to which you want it.

YOU SAID

The Twelve Caliphs are higher then All the prophets Before prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).

MY ANSWER

How you say this and yet still call SUNNIS Muslims is totally beyond me. If indeed this is true then how can one remain a Muslim for denying Any of the prophets a.s yet stay Muslim for denying your 12 imams.

Also obeying a prophet (pbuh) is absolutely a must when it comes to religious teachings whereas you say obeying your 12 imams is not a must and one can still remain a Muslim even if they deny what imams had to say ie; they are appointed, infallible, true caliphs.

If this is still your stance then my brother you need to understand that the ulil amr cannot be your imams because on one hand you say obedience to ulul amr is a must just like obedience to prophet (pbuh) (unconditional) but then you on the other hand my brother turn around and say one can remain a Muslim even if you ignore the message of the imams.

Obedience to Ibrahim a.s was a must whereas to your imams it's not. So then how can imam in verse 2:124 be a "promotion". It's rather a demotion.

YOU SAID

When Allah 'Intends' to do something, does that mean he Will not/Cannot do it? (istaghfrallah)

MY ANSWER

My dear brother please stop repeating the same accusation at me time and time again. You know why I asked that question:

If Allah (swt) INTENDED to PURIFY then how can imams and fatimah r.a be born infallible.

By the way brother I don't expect you to reply as this has become a game of cat and mouse and a tit for tat. Like I said before I had no interest in getting caught up in a long and lengthy debate but certain circumstances have put me in this situation. I am literally forcing myself to stay on this forum because I know the likes of AMEEN and yourself will accuse me of running away and this is unacceptable.

Edited by Just the truth

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إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى.

Those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar uthman and now ali are referred to as momineen, as you can see above.

When you say sunni are not momineen they are Muslims. Now we all know momineen are true believers so how can them sahaba be true believers just like us SUNNIS today when they rejected wilayah of ali a.s

Like I said brother read the letter with an open heart and stop accusing me of being ignorant.

Now if a pupil is interested in the subject, is bothered about what's in the text book and does care about the teacher and his lessons but the pupil isn't interested in tuition, is not bothered about the extra classes and doesn't care what the tutor has to say then, it is down to the pupil. It is the pupils loss but will the pupil be expelled from school, college or uni???

AMEEN brother bring any reliable translation and tafseer even from shia reference to defend your stance on fee shayin.

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

Firstly brother id like to start of by saying that if you had ONE precise verse regarding Imamate of your 12 imams you wouldn't reply with such a long reply. You can keep claiming that I havnt proven anything if that helps you sleep better.

 

(1) If your Refusing to read, then Why bother Debating? There is no limit to ones Reply, in this case you can never cope with such Detailed Comprehension. 

(2) Your claim that the verses I mentioned about the the concept of Imamat, that they are not precise is indeed false, as you have not shown any illiterately Evidence of such.

(3) It will help you along the track to read the in detail what the opposition is trying to say to you.

(4) it is invalid to have a "yes" or "no" answer, When have to deal with verses that are by the Creator, as they are in great in depth and meaning, and when we look at Narration and Historical facts it is impossible to have a simple "yes or No" Short answer.

 

 

 

Statement:

 

 

 

My brother you're missing my point. When it comes to a precise verse then obviously Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is telling us precisely what he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wants us to believe or do. We should not need a scholar to tell us exactly what Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is saying. Let's see what shia tafseer has to say about this:

Most of the verses of the Quran are CLEAR and DECISIVE. There is NO AMBIGUITY in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can NEITHER BE CHANGED NOR MODIFIED. ANY MAN OF AVERAGE INTELLIGENCE can understand and follow them.

ANY man of average intelligence can understand them, ie; we don't need scholars or ali a.s to interpretate them for us.

"So they cannot be changed nor modified". So let's see if verse 5:55 cannot be modified. The word wali has several meanings.

Ulil amr. Anybody can claim this position as all it means is "those in authority" ie; parents scholars leaders etc etc.

Also when it comes to ulul amr, since Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì never told us specifically who they are ie; imams (according to shia brothers) then if Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì had atleast given us one verse condemning is if we disobey them like there are verses condemning us if we disobey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and prophet  (pbuh) then the sunni argument would have fallen apart. 

As for the unspecific verses then I have never till this day doubted that ali a.s was very knowledgable regarding quran paak, but this does not mean other sahaba were clueless.

 

 

 

 Dear brother let us first start with understanding the Obedience to the prophet Peace be upon him :
 

The chain of the Divine Wilāyat extends from the noble Prophets (a.s), the Imams (a.s) and also consist of the Nawwāb ul Khassa during the period of Minor occultation. Discussing this the Qur’an says,
 
“Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah...”
(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:80).
 
And also,
 
“and whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil).”
 
(Surah al-Hashr 59:7)
 
Further Allah (S.w.T.) says,
 
“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those who have authority among you.”
(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:59
 
 
In Obedience to Allah, that is Obedience to the prophet peace be upon him, and if Allah wants you to obey a certain figure then surely that figure must be infallible because when Allah is Ordering to to obey the prophet peace be upon him, then this mean through the prophet peace be upon him you Obey Allah, and if Allah is telling you to Obey Uli al amr, then through them you obey Allah, because they are the people who have Authority, over us. If we take for example the Narration of al Thaqalain, We must obey the Book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt peace be upon them all, so I ask you with logic, how do we obey the Ahlulbayt? Don't we have to follow their commandments?, Don't we have to follow in that they say? so tell me Why is it we find this constant War between the Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the Umr, Abu bakr, uthman, Muwiyah and Yazid? We cannot obey both sides, and nor can they all be Uli al amr at the same time, because Allah is Referring to a Precise group "Uli al amr", We are ordered to obey them, which then they must be at agreement with each other and not at war and Conflict.
 
 
Concerning the “Ūli’ l-’Amr” the opinion of the Ahl ul-Sunna is unsupported by proofs. They claim that Ūli’ l-’Amr means the ruler! What if the ruler is unjust? What if he is not an expert in religious affairs? What if he is a slave of material desires? Is obedience obligatory towards him even if he himself disobeys his Lord? Such a situation creates contradictions. However, all these things are beyond the scope of our discussion.
 
As Umar ibn al-Khattab said, “Two muta’as (Muta’a of Hajj and Muta’a of women) were permitted in the time of the Holy Prophet (S), I prohibit both.” Hence those who consider Allah (S.w.T.) and the Prophet (S) as Ūli’ l-’Amr would regard Muta’a as Halāl. But if they also wish to obey Umar ibn al-Khattab, it will create a contradiction.
 
 
Dear brother Where is your logic? Muawiya considered it obligatory to fight ‘Ali (a.s) whereas the Holy Prophet (S) had made it Harām. The Prophet (S) said, “War against ‘Ali (a.s.) is war against me.” Muawiya used to order people to hate ‘Ali (a.s.) while the Holy Prophet (S) made ‘Ali’s love obligatory and Allah (S.w.T.) made the love of ‘Ali (a.s.) the compensation of the Prophetic message. The Holy Qur’an says,
 
“Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but the love of my near relatives.”
(Surah Ash-Shūrā 42:23)
 
On the basis of this, the result of the obedience of Allah (S.w.T.) and His Prophet (S) would be love for ‘Ali (a.s.). To consider Muawiya as Ūli’ l-’Amr would necessitate hatred for ‘Ali (a.s.), and in this case too a contradictory situation would arise.
 
 
The Term ‘Ūli’ l-’Amr’ Is Not Restricted to a Particular Group, To consider the command of obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr to be restricted to a particular group is against the import of the Qur’anic ayat. This is because Allah (S.w.T.) has not ordered the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr separately: He has included the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr alongwith that of the Holy Prophet (S). Thus the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr is the obedience of the Holy Prophet (S). There is no difference between the obedience of the Prophet (S) and the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr. The obedience of the Holy Prophet (S) and the Ūli’ l-’Amr is compulsory upon everyone. It is not restricted to a few people. If we consider Ūli’ l-’Amr to include all types of rulers it would not be correct. Ūli’ l-’Amr are those who are purified from every kind of mistakes and sins: So that they could be obeyed without any reservations.
 
Are the Religious Scholars Ūli’ l-’Amr? We Discussed this Earlier brother Some scholars claim that by Ūli’ l-’Amr is meant the religious leaders (Ālims). But, the Ālims are not infallible (Masūm). All the Ālims are prone to commit mistakes. That is the reason why there are differences in the religious rulings. Secondly infallibility is an inward quality which cannot be perceived by the people. That is the reason why the Ūli’ l-’Amr could only be designated by Allah (S.w.T.) and appointed by the Holy Prophet (S).
 
 
 
The Twelve Imams Are Ūli’ l-’Amr As I said. Numerous books of the Sunnis as well as Shia record traditions that the Ūli’ l-’Amr are the Twelve Imams. The following tradition is regarded as authentic by the Sunnis as well as the Shias.
 
 
What the Holy Prophet (S) Says Regarding Ūli’ l-’Amr
 
Jabir ibn Abdullah Ansari (a.r.) reports, “I asked the Holy Prophet (S) that I know Allah (S.w.T.) and His Prophet (S), but I do not know the Ūli’ l-’Amr.” The Holy Prophet (S) replied,
 
“They are my Caliphs, O! Jabir, and Imams of the Muslims after me. The first of them is ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.), then Hasan, then Husain, then ‘Ali ibn Husain, then Muhammad bin ‘Ali known in the Tawrat as Al-Baqir, thou wilt shortly meet him O Jabir; so when you meet him, convey to him my Salām; then Ja’far ibn Muhammad, then Musa bin Ja’far, then ‘Ali bin Musa, then Muhammad bin ‘Ali, then ‘Ali ibn Muhammad, then Hasan bin ‘Ali, then my name sake and one having my kunniyat. They are the decisive argument of Allah on this earth and the mainstay of His religion among mankind. The last of them is the one whom Allah will give victory over the east of the earth and the west; and it is he who will disappear from his Shias and friends. A long concealment, during which no one will remain firm in the belief of his Imamat except those whose hearts Allah has tested for faith.” Jabir (a.r.) asked, “Will his Shias derive benefit from him during his concealment?” “Yes”, said the Apostle of Allah, “By him Who raised me up with Prophethood,verily they will obtain light from his ‘Nūr’ and will benefit by his Wilāyat during his concealment, like people derive benefit from the sun when it is covered with clouds.”
 
(Yanabiul Mawaddah)
 
 
So, it could be concluded from this tradition that the obedience of the Holy Ahl ul-Bayt (a.s.) is equivalent to the obedience of Allah (S.w.T.). Those interested in more details can refer to the book ‘Ghayatul Marām’. In the fifty-ninth chapter of this book, four traditions from the Sunni sources and fourteen from the Shia sources are mentioned. In the same book, in the 121st chapter, four traditions from the Sunni books and twenty-eight from the Shia sources are recorded.
 
Obedience of the Just Mujtahid.Now we can say that during the Major occultation the obedience of a qualified Mujtahid is also compulsory. His obedience is actually the obedience of Imam az-Zaman (a.s.). Imam (a.s.) says,
 
“Look carefully at those people who relate our traditions with deliberation upon our permitted and prohibited things, and know our precepts and commandments. Select one of them for adjudication, since I have appointed such a person for the said task. If his verdict is rejected then it is as if the command of Allah is deemed light and our ordinance refuted. Certainly the one who refutes our ordinance has refuted the ordinance of Allah. Verily such a person has stepped into the
boundary of Shirk (Polytheism).”
 
(al-Kāfi)
 
The Faqih Who Deserves to Be Followed
 
One of the conditions of a Faqih is that he should be free from worldly desires. He should not be in pursuit of material benefits and worldly honour. The Faqih who is free from such weaknesses is fit to be followed even if there are people more pious (in performing good deeds) than him. In this regard the great scholar Shaykh Ansari quotes a tradition from Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.) in his book ‘Ihtijāj’.
 
“And among jurists (Fuqaha) those who protect themselves (from sins), guard their religion, defy their carnal desires and are obedient to their Master, it is incumbent upon the people to follow them. Such characteristics are found only in a few of them and not all.”
 
   
 
Obeying Parents Is Obeying Allah (S.W.T.) (since you claim they are also Uli al amr) ,Obedience to parents is obedience to Allah (S.w.T.). To obey parents and not to cause them any kind of distress or discomfort is of extreme importance. This importance can be judged by the fact that in the Holy Qur’an, Allah (S.w.T.)’s command to serve Him is immediately followed by His command to treat parents with gentleness and humility.
 
“And your Lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but Him; and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) ‘Uff’ nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little.”
(Surah al-‘Isrā’, 17:23-24)
 
 
Parents Cannot Restrain from Obligatory Acts Nor Can They Compel You to Commit the Prohibited.
 
It should be known that the parents are not the absolute authority upon all the affairs of Harām and Halāl. Their authority is restricted by the dual dictum, that they must not prohibit a Wajib thing and nor should order something Harām. If a situation demands the parents have to be disobeyed in absolute obedience to the commands of Allah (S.w.T.) and His Prophet (S).
 
“And We have enjoined on man goodness to his parents, and if they contend with you that you should associate (others) with Me, of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them; to Me is your return, so I will inform you of what you did.”
(Surah Al-’Ankabūt 29:8)
 
Obedience to parents is highly stressed so that they may not be caused even the slightest discomfort by the disobedience of their children. It is totally prohibited by the Qur’an. Thus if the disobedience of the parents would incur their wrath then it is compulsory for the children to obey them.
 
 
Sometimes the parents may disallow something or order their children to do something. But if the child does not obey they are not angry. In such cases it is permitted for the child to follow his choice. For example the parents refrain their son to proceed on a journey that would cause hardship. But they do not mind if he insists on it. In this case it is Mubah for the son to go on this journey. However if this journey would cause the anger of one’s parents, it is a journey of sin and during this journey one has to pray Salāt as complete (not Qasr) and also observe the obligatory fasts.
 
Obedience of the Husband Is Wajib upon the Wife
 
The Almighty Allah (S.w.T.) and the Holy Prophet (S) have commanded the wife to obey her husband. The Holy Qur’an informs,
 
“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded.”
(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:34)
 
Allah, the Almighty has given men superiority over women and appointed them as the protectors of women. This is due to the fact that men have been provided by Allah (S.w.T.) with many qualities in great measure as compared to women, like strength, bravery etc. Further they spend their wealth upon their women. So the best women are those who are loyal to their husbands and obedient to their commands. They protect his property and their own chastity in the absence of their husbands. The Holy Prophet (S) has also said,
 
“Prostration of a human for another human being is not permitted. (If it had been) I would have ordered the wife to prostrate before her husband.”
(Wasa’il ul-Shia)
 
 
 
Numerous traditions emphasise that women should be obedient to their husbands. Apart from this, women should know that it is highly recommended that they please their husbands in all matters. It is the best worship of a woman. However to satisfy the sexual desires of the husband is absolutely Wajib according to the consensus of the scholars.
 
Similarly the husband’s permission is required by the wife if she intends to go out. Even if she goes to visit her relatives or parents it is obligatory for her to seek the husband’s permission. If she leaves the husband’s house without his permission, the angels curse her till she returns.
 
Non-Essential Expenses Should Have the Prior Sanction of the Husband
 
Apart from the necessary expenses, the wife should obtain the husband’s permission for other things even if she wants to spend from her personal wealth. But in case of obligatory expenses she does not need the husband’s permission: For example, Hajj, Zakat, Khums and even for spending upon her parents. Even if the husband restrains her she must carry out these obligations. If a woman obeys her husband to please Allah (S.w.T.), she has undoubtedly obeyed the Divine commands and the instructions of the Holy Prophet (S). It is certainly the best worship for a woman.
 
Referring to the Unjust Ruler Is Not Allowed
 
So far, we have seen that obedience to Allah (S.w.T.) is obligatory and so is the obedience to the Holy Prophet (S) and his Twelve Successors (Imams a.s). and whoever else Allah (S.w.T.) has ordered to obey. Their obedience is also a must i.e. of the Fuqaha, in case of religious matters. It is absolutely ‘Harām’ to appeal for justice in the courts of the unjust rulers. Referring to them is the same as seeking the help of Satan. Whatever benefit is derived through such cases is also Harāmeven if one is the rightful claimant. Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) says,
 
“If one files a suit of law in the court of a ruler, even if the plaintiff is on the right, his claim would tantamount to his making Satan (false deity) his judge. And whatever he gets through this Judgement is Harām even though it was from his rights.”
 
 
“...then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle...”
(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:59)
 
 The Religious Scholar Who Does Not Practise Piety is Not to Be Followed
 
Like it is prohibited to seek the counsel of the unjust ruler even if one is on the right; in the same way it is not allowed to seek religious advice from the scholars who pursue material wealth and worldly honour. The qualifications of a Faqih have been mentioned in the foregoing pages. Anyone who does not fulfill these qualities is not to be followed. It is Harām to refer to them. A couple of traditions are quoted below in this regard.
 
 
 Religious Leaders Who Worship the World are Bandits On the Highway to Allah (S.w.T.)
 
It is narrated from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.): “When you see a religious scholar in love of this world, do not consider him religious. Certainly one who loves an object, his condition and disposition is like that of his beloved. (It means that one who loves this world will not care for the Hereafter). Allah revealed upon Hazrat Dawūd (a.s.) :
 
“O Dawūd do not make an Ālim an intermediary between you and Me, who is involved in the love of this world. He will hinder you from My path (i.e. he will make you too a worshipper of the world like himself). Certainly such Ālims are bandits who waylay the people approaching My abode. The least that I would do to them is that I shall remove from their hearts the love of conversation with Me and sweetness too.”
(al-Kāfi)
 
A Faqih Should Only Be for Allah (S.w.T.) (And this is a Crucial point) 
 
Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) states,
 
“If one obtains knowledge in order to become conceited or to argue with the foolish people or to obtain wealth or to attract people towards himself then he has certainly made the Fire his abode. Verily, acquisition of wealth is not permitted but for ones own family (needs).”
(al-Kāfi)
 
The Common People Are ‘Deficient’
 
People who leave aside the scholars of Ahl ul-Bayt(a.s.) and refer to others in order to satisfy their selfish desires, are termed as ‘deficient’ (which means those who willfully neglect the Divine commands). They are mentioned in the following verse of the Holy Qur’an:
 
“Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god.”
 
 
 
 
I hope that clear your mind. 

 
 
Statement:

 

 

My dear brother please stop repeating the same accusation at me time and time again. You know why I asked that question:

If Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì INTENDED to PURIFY then how can imams and fatimah r.a be born infallible.

 

Brother I ask you When Allah Intends to do something, Will he do it? yes or no? The Answer is yes. So we ask When did he Purify the prophet and his Households peace be upon them? We find that prophet peace be upon him is Infallible since birth, so did Allah not Purify him? yes or No? The answer yes, Therefore If he is purified since birth, then this goes out for the rest of his Ahlulbayt (a.s).

now Your argument on Why there names are not mentioned in the Quran, It is possible that one may ask, that although at times the Ahl Bayt and specially Imam Ali has been pointed out, but why still did not Allah mention it even once in the Quran, which would have made life easier for a lot of the Muslim nation?

 

  • The Quran is a Universal book, which does not mention the minute details, therefore God has sent a prophet along with the book who shall teach the people the book and speak of its secrets, and convey his messages, and point out the facts. So what the prophet mentions is the authority for the Muslim nation
 
 
 
Abu Basir says: he narrates from Imam Sadiq regarding the ayah surah nisa verse 59,
 
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الأمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ...
 
004.059 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you…
 
That Imam Sadiq says, Olil Amr is Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Hassan and Hussain, I said: the people say why the names of Ali and his progeny are not mentioned in the Quran? He said: “it is revealed in the Quran to offer prayer every day, but does it mention the amount of Rak’at in the Quran? The numbers of Rakats were told to the prophet and he narrated it to the people. Likewise Khums, when Allah mentions that the Muslims have to pay the Zakat, but does it mention the amount of the money to be paid, that too was told by the prophet to the people, the Ayah of Hajj was revealed and nowhere in the Quran does it mention on how many times do we have to circumambulate the Kabah, no, that too was told the people by the prophet. So the ayah mentioned was revealed in affirmation of the Imamatee of Ali, Hassan and Husain and the prophet defined and told the people the meaning of the verse, and he told about Ali: Who ever I am the leader of; Ali too is the leader of them.
 
Prophet (PBUH) said: I recommend you not to let go off any of these two, the book of God and the Ahl Bayt.
 
سنن الترمذي ج5/ص662
باب مناقب أهل بيت النبي (ص)عن جابر بن عبد الله قال رأيت رسول الله (ص)في حجته ... يقول يا أيها الناس إني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي
الجامع الصحيح سنن الترمذي، تأليف: محمد بن عيسى أبو عيسى الترمذي السلمي، دار النشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي - بيروت
 
 
Had the Prophet not mentioned in the traditions who the Ahl bayt? Yes he did. Allah affirms the word of his Prophet in the holy book in the 33rd verse of the 33rd Sur’ ah.  Thus only Ali, Hassan, Husain and Fatima were the Ahl Bayt, and also at another place the Prophet gathered with them under a cloak saying: O Lord! For every prophet there have been companions and confidantes, these are my progeny and my people.
 
 
الدر المنثور ج6/ص604
وأخرج ابن جرير وابن أبي حاتم والطبراني عن أبي سعيد الخدري رضي الله عنه قال قال رسول الله  صلى الله عليه وسلم  نزلت هذه الآية في خمسة في وفي علي وفاطمة وحسن وحسين   إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا  
الدر المنثور، تأليف: عبد الرحمن بن الكمال جلال الدين السيوطي، دار النشر: دار الفكر - بيروت - 1993 الدر المنثور، تأليف: عبد الرحمن بن الكمال جلال الدين السيوطي، دار النشر: دار الفكر - بيروت - 1993
 
 
One of the reasons of not mentioning the names of the Ahl Bayt maybe that God wanted to test the Muslim nation with this and wanted to see who comes out successful in the end. To explain this we need to explain a few points:
 
1.        God has promised, I shall test all people and all nations, and has also pointed out to this fact in different places of the Quran.
 
2.        The way God tests his creations had been different in different cases, for instance sometimes with the creation of Adam God asked the Angels to prostrate and so they were tested in this manner, and then some were tested by ordering not to fish on Sundays like in the case of Jews, and so in the end God shall test every one with different conditions.
 
3.        One of the ways that God test his people is by how they follow their Prophet. There are some ways God tests the people:
 
 
  • The prophet is introduced to the people from God, his rank his position, and the respect and authority he has been granted by God
 
  • And then God commands the people to abide by the teaching of the prophet
 
4. By not mentioning the names of the Imams in the Quran, Allah has tested the Muslims to see how many of them are the real abiders to the word of their lord and which of them are the misguided
 
 
  • The late Syed Abdul Husain Sharf-udeen in his book ‘Falsafe al misaaq wal wilayah’, when answering this question mentions, ‘Arabs or to be specific Quraysh had understood the fact that when the Prophet of Islam wanted Islam to progress into different parts of the society, he had no option to kill a few of the people who were in his way, and for this act he had used Ali in more than one places, now the Arabs were looking for a payback and who better than Ali, when the Prophet has passed away the people had taken their revenge by trying to destroys Ali’s social life.
 
On the other hand, when they had seen how close Imam Ali was to the prophet, it was only but natural that they become jealous, after the Prophet passed away was the time when they could easily seek their revenge. The Arabs were well aware that when the prophet passes away, the caliphate would be handed over to the household of the prophet, i.e. the Bani Hashim and in it shall to proceed, this was to many of the Arabs not acceptable and they long before the prophet died had planned to snatch this right form the Ahl bayt, on one of the occasions we find Umar as saying to ibn abbas “Quraysh does not wish that prophet-hood and Imamatee both be granted to Bani Hashim”.
 
By having understood these matters we understand that the concept of Imamatee was a very difficult concept for the prophet to convey to the people, on one side it was part of the basis of religion, because the prophet had to leave a successor behind and on the other hand we had people who were influential in Quraysh and were not ready to swear allegiance to Ali Ibn Abi Talib. Allah had known that these people would do anything they possibly could to get their way done, be it even editing the Quran, and erase from it even the most basic of verses. So in this case we understand that the Prophet during his life time had insisted on the caliphate of Ali after his demise, but Allah had not bought the names of the Ahl bayt in the Quran to protect it from harm of the people.
 
The signs of them turning their faces away from the prophet were visible in the last days of the prophets life, first when a group had planned to kill the prophet on the night of the Aqabah, on Thursday a few days before the passing away of the prophet, certain people did not allow the prophet to write his will because they believed that if the prophet were to write the will he would clearly state Ali as his successor and his household to be the rightful heirs. The third event where we can clearly see is that when the prophet had asked a certain few to go with Osama and join Zaid to fight against the Romans, they wouldn’t leave just because they thought that in their absence the caliphate shall be granted to Ali and they would miss the chance of ruling the growing Islamic empire.
 
So when Allah had decided not to mention the names of the Ahl Bayt in the Quran, the task was left upon the Prophet of Islam to pass this message to the true followers, and show the people his descendant, in the 23 years of Islamic propagation the Prophet would introduce Imam Ali as his heir and the caliph of Muslims after him. The example which we have here to show is when the Prophet had invited his near kin for dinner on the 3rd night of propagation, the prophet clearly mentioned that: “This Ali – my brother is my successor therefore listen to what he has to say and obey him.”
This is the procedure how the prophet conveyed the message of Allah about the caliphate of the Holy house hold, this way the message was also conveyed and the Quran was also protected from the vice of the evil.
 
 
Holy Quran says:

016: 44 with clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). and we have also sent down unto You (O Muhammad ) the Reminder and the advice (the Qur'ân), that You may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.    

 

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Now if someone doesn't believe in tuition (Imaamath), doesn't accept and care about, what the tutor (Imaam) has to say or when it comes to matters and issues, regarding the text book (Quran), the teacher (Muhammad, pbuh) and his teachings (Sunnah), if people want to resolve them on their own or go it alone or search for other means or select and refer to a different sort of tuition and tutor than, what the incharge (Allah) and his administration (Angels) have arranged, then that is down to them and their loss, in this life and the life after. But they still will remain students (Muslims) of this subject (Islam). They will not be expelled (become Kafir).

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aSalaam Aleykum

Isn't the Quran our guide? Isn't the Prophet (saw) and his Sunnah our guide?

If you claim there must be a divinely appointed figure after Prophet (saw) to guide people then where is your guide today?

Brother you said "isn't the Quran our guide???" My answer is, absolutely yes, it is. You said " isn't the Prophet (pbuh) and his Sunnah our guides???" My answer again is, absolutely yes, they are. But my question to you would be, do we have the ability and wisdom to understand the Quran and Sunnah by ourselves??? If yes then, why are we different??? Do we have the ability and wisdom to resolve issues and matters, regarding the Quran and Sunnah, ourselves??? If yes then, why do we argue and quarrel??? If we have the ability and wisdom, to understand the meaning of Quran and Sunnah ourselves then, why do we differ??? I can go on and on and on. Why??? Because we have disregarded the tuition (Imaamath) and rejected each and every tutor (Imaam) that the head master (Allah) and his teacher (Muhammad, pbuh) had arranged for us. That's why we differ, quarrel, argue and disagree.

Brother you further on said "if there is a divinely appointed figure after Muhammad (pbuh) to guide people then, where is that guide today???" brother before i answer this, here is what i have to say, Allah sent many Messengers after Hazrath Moses (as), as further guidance for mankind and the people of Israel (Bani Isra'eel). Was Hazrath Moses (as) and his book, not enough as guidance??? But what did the people of Israel (Bani Isra'eel) do to those Messengers???

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Statement:

Firstly brother id like to start of by saying that if you had ONE precise verse regarding Imamate of your 12 imams you wouldn't reply with such a long reply. You can keep claiming that I havnt proven anything if that helps you sleep better.

(1) If your Refusing to read, then Why bother Debating? There is no limit to ones Reply, in this case you can never cope with such Detailed Comprehension.

(2) Your claim that the verses I mentioned about the the concept of Imamat, that they are not precise is indeed false, as you have not shown any illiterately Evidence of such.

(3) It will help you along the track to read the in detail what the opposition is trying to say to you.

(4) it is invalid to have a "yes" or "no" answer, When have to deal with verses that are by the Creator, as they are in great in depth and meaning, and when we look at Narration and Historical facts it is impossible to have a simple "yes or No" Short answer.

Statement:

Dear brother let us first start with understanding the Obedience to the prophet Peace be upon him :

The chain of the Divine Wilāyat extends from the noble Prophets (a.s), the Imams (a.s) and also consist of the Nawwāb ul Khassa during the period of Minor occultation. Discussing this the Qur’an says,

“Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah...”

(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:80).

And also,

“and whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil).”

(Surah al-Hashr 59:7)

Further Allah (S.w.T.) says,

“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those who have authority among you.”

(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:59

In Obedience to Allah, that is Obedience to the prophet peace be upon him, and if Allah wants you to obey a certain figure then surely that figure must be infallible because when Allah is Ordering to to obey the prophet peace be upon him, then this mean through the prophet peace be upon him you Obey Allah, and if Allah is telling you to Obey Uli al amr, then through them you obey Allah, because they are the people who have Authority, over us. If we take for example the Narration of al Thaqalain, We must obey the Book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt peace be upon them all, so I ask you with logic, how do we obey the Ahlulbayt? Don't we have to follow their commandments?, Don't we have to follow in that they say? so tell me Why is it we find this constant War between the Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the Umr, Abu bakr, uthman, Muwiyah and Yazid? We cannot obey both sides, and nor can they all be Uli al amr at the same time, because Allah is Referring to a Precise group "Uli al amr", We are ordered to obey them, which then they must be at agreement with each other and not at war and Conflict.

Concerning the “Ūli’ l-’Amr” the opinion of the Ahl ul-Sunna is unsupported by proofs. They claim that Ūli’ l-’Amr means the ruler! What if the ruler is unjust? What if he is not an expert in religious affairs? What if he is a slave of material desires? Is obedience obligatory towards him even if he himself disobeys his Lord? Such a situation creates contradictions. However, all these things are beyond the scope of our discussion.

As Umar ibn al-Khattab said, “Two muta’as (Muta’a of Hajj and Muta’a of women) were permitted in the time of the Holy Prophet (S), I prohibit both.” Hence those who consider Allah (S.w.T.) and the Prophet (S) as Ūli’ l-’Amr would regard Muta’a as Halāl. But if they also wish to obey Umar ibn al-Khattab, it will create a contradiction.

Dear brother Where is your logic? Muawiya considered it obligatory to fight ‘Ali (a.s) whereas the Holy Prophet (S) had made it Harām. The Prophet (S) said, “War against ‘Ali (a.s.) is war against me.” Muawiya used to order people to hate ‘Ali (a.s.) while the Holy Prophet (S) made ‘Ali’s love obligatory and Allah (S.w.T.) made the love of ‘Ali (a.s.) the compensation of the Prophetic message. The Holy Qur’an says,

“Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but the love of my near relatives.”

(Surah Ash-Shūrā 42:23)

On the basis of this, the result of the obedience of Allah (S.w.T.) and His Prophet (S) would be love for ‘Ali (a.s.). To consider Muawiya as Ūli’ l-’Amr would necessitate hatred for ‘Ali (a.s.), and in this case too a contradictory situation would arise.

The Term ‘Ūli’ l-’Amr’ Is Not Restricted to a Particular Group, To consider the command of obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr to be restricted to a particular group is against the import of the Qur’anic ayat. This is because Allah (S.w.T.) has not ordered the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr separately: He has included the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr alongwith that of the Holy Prophet (S). Thus the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr is the obedience of the Holy Prophet (S). There is no difference between the obedience of the Prophet (S) and the obedience of Ūli’ l-’Amr. The obedience of the Holy Prophet (S) and the Ūli’ l-’Amr is compulsory upon everyone. It is not restricted to a few people. If we consider Ūli’ l-’Amr to include all types of rulers it would not be correct. Ūli’ l-’Amr are those who are purified from every kind of mistakes and sins: So that they could be obeyed without any reservations.

Are the Religious Scholars Ūli’ l-’Amr? We Discussed this Earlier brother Some scholars claim that by Ūli’ l-’Amr is meant the religious leaders (Ālims). But, the Ālims are not infallible (Masūm). All the Ālims are prone to commit mistakes. That is the reason why there are differences in the religious rulings. Secondly infallibility is an inward quality which cannot be perceived by the people. That is the reason why the Ūli’ l-’Amr could only be designated by Allah (S.w.T.) and appointed by the Holy Prophet (S).

The Twelve Imams Are Ūli’ l-’Amr As I said. Numerous books of the Sunnis as well as Shia record traditions that the Ūli’ l-’Amr are the Twelve Imams. The following tradition is regarded as authentic by the Sunnis as well as the Shias.

What the Holy Prophet (S) Says Regarding Ūli’ l-’Amr

Jabir ibn Abdullah Ansari (a.r.) reports, “I asked the Holy Prophet (S) that I know Allah (S.w.T.) and His Prophet (S), but I do not know the Ūli’ l-’Amr.” The Holy Prophet (S) replied,

“They are my Caliphs, O! Jabir, and Imams of the Muslims after me. The first of them is ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.), then Hasan, then Husain, then ‘Ali ibn Husain, then Muhammad bin ‘Ali known in the Tawrat as Al-Baqir, thou wilt shortly meet him O Jabir; so when you meet him, convey to him my Salām; then Ja’far ibn Muhammad, then Musa bin Ja’far, then ‘Ali bin Musa, then Muhammad bin ‘Ali, then ‘Ali ibn Muhammad, then Hasan bin ‘Ali, then my name sake and one having my kunniyat. They are the decisive argument of Allah on this earth and the mainstay of His religion among mankind. The last of them is the one whom Allah will give victory over the east of the earth and the west; and it is he who will disappear from his Shias and friends. A long concealment, during which no one will remain firm in the belief of his Imamat except those whose hearts Allah has tested for faith.” Jabir (a.r.) asked, “Will his Shias derive benefit from him during his concealment?” “Yes”, said the Apostle of Allah, “By him Who raised me up with Prophethood,verily they will obtain light from his ‘Nūr’ and will benefit by his Wilāyat during his concealment, like people derive benefit from the sun when it is covered with clouds.”

(Yanabiul Mawaddah)

So, it could be concluded from this tradition that the obedience of the Holy Ahl ul-Bayt (a.s.) is equivalent to the obedience of Allah (S.w.T.). Those interested in more details can refer to the book ‘Ghayatul Marām’. In the fifty-ninth chapter of this book, four traditions from the Sunni sources and fourteen from the Shia sources are mentioned. In the same book, in the 121st chapter, four traditions from the Sunni books and twenty-eight from the Shia sources are recorded.

Obedience of the Just Mujtahid.Now we can say that during the Major occultation the obedience of a qualified Mujtahid is also compulsory. His obedience is actually the obedience of Imam az-Zaman (a.s.). Imam (a.s.) says,

“Look carefully at those people who relate our traditions with deliberation upon our permitted and prohibited things, and know our precepts and commandments. Select one of them for adjudication, since I have appointed such a person for the said task. If his verdict is rejected then it is as if the command of Allah is deemed light and our ordinance refuted. Certainly the one who refutes our ordinance has refuted the ordinance of Allah. Verily such a person has stepped into the

boundary of Shirk (Polytheism).”

(al-Kāfi)

The Faqih Who Deserves to Be Followed

One of the conditions of a Faqih is that he should be free from worldly desires. He should not be in pursuit of material benefits and worldly honour. The Faqih who is free from such weaknesses is fit to be followed even if there are people more pious (in performing good deeds) than him. In this regard the great scholar Shaykh Ansari quotes a tradition from Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.) in his book ‘Ihtijāj’.

“And among jurists (Fuqaha) those who protect themselves (from sins), guard their religion, defy their carnal desires and are obedient to their Master, it is incumbent upon the people to follow them. Such characteristics are found only in a few of them and not all.”

Obeying Parents Is Obeying Allah (S.W.T.) (since you claim they are also Uli al amr) ,Obedience to parents is obedience to Allah (S.w.T.). To obey parents and not to cause them any kind of distress or discomfort is of extreme importance. This importance can be judged by the fact that in the Holy Qur’an, Allah (S.w.T.)’s command to serve Him is immediately followed by His command to treat parents with gentleness and humility.

“And your Lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but Him; and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) ‘Uff’ nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little.”

(Surah al-‘Isrā’, 17:23-24)

Parents Cannot Restrain from Obligatory Acts Nor Can They Compel You to Commit the Prohibited.

It should be known that the parents are not the absolute authority upon all the affairs of Harām and Halāl. Their authority is restricted by the dual dictum, that they must not prohibit a Wajib thing and nor should order something Harām. If a situation demands the parents have to be disobeyed in absolute obedience to the commands of Allah (S.w.T.) and His Prophet (S).

“And We have enjoined on man goodness to his parents, and if they contend with you that you should associate (others) with Me, of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them; to Me is your return, so I will inform you of what you did.”

(Surah Al-’Ankabūt 29:8)

Obedience to parents is highly stressed so that they may not be caused even the slightest discomfort by the disobedience of their children. It is totally prohibited by the Qur’an. Thus if the disobedience of the parents would incur their wrath then it is compulsory for the children to obey them.

Sometimes the parents may disallow something or order their children to do something. But if the child does not obey they are not angry. In such cases it is permitted for the child to follow his choice. For example the parents refrain their son to proceed on a journey that would cause hardship. But they do not mind if he insists on it. In this case it is Mubah for the son to go on this journey. However if this journey would cause the anger of one’s parents, it is a journey of sin and during this journey one has to pray Salāt as complete (not Qasr) and also observe the obligatory fasts.

Obedience of the Husband Is Wajib upon the Wife

The Almighty Allah (S.w.T.) and the Holy Prophet (S) have commanded the wife to obey her husband. The Holy Qur’an informs,

“Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded.”

(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:34)

Allah, the Almighty has given men superiority over women and appointed them as the protectors of women. This is due to the fact that men have been provided by Allah (S.w.T.) with many qualities in great measure as compared to women, like strength, bravery etc. Further they spend their wealth upon their women. So the best women are those who are loyal to their husbands and obedient to their commands. They protect his property and their own chastity in the absence of their husbands. The Holy Prophet (S) has also said,

“Prostration of a human for another human being is not permitted. (If it had been) I would have ordered the wife to prostrate before her husband.”

(Wasa’il ul-Shia)

Numerous traditions emphasise that women should be obedient to their husbands. Apart from this, women should know that it is highly recommended that they please their husbands in all matters. It is the best worship of a woman. However to satisfy the sexual desires of the husband is absolutely Wajib according to the consensus of the scholars.

Similarly the husband’s permission is required by the wife if she intends to go out. Even if she goes to visit her relatives or parents it is obligatory for her to seek the husband’s permission. If she leaves the husband’s house without his permission, the angels curse her till she returns.

Non-Essential Expenses Should Have the Prior Sanction of the Husband

Apart from the necessary expenses, the wife should obtain the husband’s permission for other things even if she wants to spend from her personal wealth. But in case of obligatory expenses she does not need the husband’s permission: For example, Hajj, Zakat, Khums and even for spending upon her parents. Even if the husband restrains her she must carry out these obligations. If a woman obeys her husband to please Allah (S.w.T.), she has undoubtedly obeyed the Divine commands and the instructions of the Holy Prophet (S). It is certainly the best worship for a woman.

Referring to the Unjust Ruler Is Not Allowed

So far, we have seen that obedience to Allah (S.w.T.) is obligatory and so is the obedience to the Holy Prophet (S) and his Twelve Successors (Imams a.s). and whoever else Allah (S.w.T.) has ordered to obey. Their obedience is also a must i.e. of the Fuqaha, in case of religious matters. It is absolutely ‘Harām’ to appeal for justice in the courts of the unjust rulers. Referring to them is the same as seeking the help of Satan. Whatever benefit is derived through such cases is also Harāmeven if one is the rightful claimant. Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) says,

“If one files a suit of law in the court of a ruler, even if the plaintiff is on the right, his claim would tantamount to his making Satan (false deity) his judge. And whatever he gets through this Judgement is Harām even though it was from his rights.”

“...then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle...”

(Surah an-Nisā’ 4:59)

The Religious Scholar Who Does Not Practise Piety is Not to Be Followed

Like it is prohibited to seek the counsel of the unjust ruler even if one is on the right; in the same way it is not allowed to seek religious advice from the scholars who pursue material wealth and worldly honour. The qualifications of a Faqih have been mentioned in the foregoing pages. Anyone who does not fulfill these qualities is not to be followed. It is Harām to refer to them. A couple of traditions are quoted below in this regard.

Religious Leaders Who Worship the World are Bandits On the Highway to Allah (S.w.T.)

It is narrated from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.): “When you see a religious scholar in love of this world, do not consider him religious. Certainly one who loves an object, his condition and disposition is like that of his beloved. (It means that one who loves this world will not care for the Hereafter). Allah revealed upon Hazrat Dawūd (a.s.) :

“O Dawūd do not make an Ālim an intermediary between you and Me, who is involved in the love of this world. He will hinder you from My path (i.e. he will make you too a worshipper of the world like himself). Certainly such Ālims are bandits who waylay the people approaching My abode. The least that I would do to them is that I shall remove from their hearts the love of conversation with Me and sweetness too.”

(al-Kāfi)

A Faqih Should Only Be for Allah (S.w.T.) (And this is a Crucial point)

Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) states,

“If one obtains knowledge in order to become conceited or to argue with the foolish people or to obtain wealth or to attract people towards himself then he has certainly made the Fire his abode. Verily, acquisition of wealth is not permitted but for ones own family (needs).”

(al-Kāfi)

The Common People Are ‘Deficient’

People who leave aside the scholars of Ahl ul-Bayt(a.s.) and refer to others in order to satisfy their selfish desires, are termed as ‘deficient’ (which means those who willfully neglect the Divine commands). They are mentioned in the following verse of the Holy Qur’an:

“Have you then considered him who takes his low desire for his god.”

I hope that clear your mind.

Statement:

Brother I ask you When Allah Intends to do something, Will he do it? yes or no? The Answer is yes. So we ask When did he Purify the prophet and his Households peace be upon them? We find that prophet peace be upon him is Infallible since birth, so did Allah not Purify him? yes or No? The answer yes, Therefore If he is purified since birth, then this goes out for the rest of his Ahlulbayt (a.s).

now Your argument on Why there names are not mentioned in the Quran, It is possible that one may ask, that although at times the Ahl Bayt and specially Imam Ali has been pointed out, but why still did not Allah mention it even once in the Quran, which would have made life easier for a lot of the Muslim nation?

  • The Quran is a Universal book, which does not mention the minute details, therefore God has sent a prophet along with the book who shall teach the people the book and speak of its secrets, and convey his messages, and point out the facts. So what the prophet mentions is the authority for the Muslim nation

Abu Basir says: he narrates from Imam Sadiq regarding the ayah surah nisa verse 59,

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الأمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ...

004.059 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you…

That Imam Sadiq says, Olil Amr is Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Hassan and Hussain, I said: the people say why the names of Ali and his progeny are not mentioned in the Quran? He said: “it is revealed in the Quran to offer prayer every day, but does it mention the amount of Rak’at in the Quran? The numbers of Rakats were told to the prophet and he narrated it to the people. Likewise Khums, when Allah mentions that the Muslims have to pay the Zakat, but does it mention the amount of the money to be paid, that too was told by the prophet to the people, the Ayah of Hajj was revealed and nowhere in the Quran does it mention on how many times do we have to circumambulate the Kabah, no, that too was told the people by the prophet. So the ayah mentioned was revealed in affirmation of the Imamatee of Ali, Hassan and Husain and the prophet defined and told the people the meaning of the verse, and he told about Ali: Who ever I am the leader of; Ali too is the leader of them.

Prophet (PBUH) said: I recommend you not to let go off any of these two, the book of God and the Ahl Bayt.

سنن الترمذي ج5/ص662

باب مناقب أهل بيت النبي (ص)عن جابر بن عبد الله قال رأيت رسول الله (ص)في حجته ... يقول يا أيها الناس إني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي

الجامع الصحيح سنن الترمذي، تأليف: محمد بن عيسى أبو عيسى الترمذي السلمي، دار النشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي - بيروت

Had the Prophet not mentioned in the traditions who the Ahl bayt? Yes he did. Allah affirms the word of his Prophet in the holy book in the 33rd verse of the 33rd Sur’ ah. Thus only Ali, Hassan, Husain and Fatima were the Ahl Bayt, and also at another place the Prophet gathered with them under a cloak saying: O Lord! For every prophet there have been companions and confidantes, these are my progeny and my people.

الدر المنثور ج6/ص604

وأخرج ابن جرير وابن أبي حاتم والطبراني عن أبي سعيد الخدري رضي الله عنه قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم نزلت هذه الآية في خمسة في وفي علي وفاطمة وحسن وحسين إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا

الدر المنثور، تأليف: عبد الرحمن بن الكمال جلال الدين السيوطي، دار النشر: دار الفكر - بيروت - 1993 الدر المنثور، تأليف: عبد الرحمن بن الكمال جلال الدين السيوطي، دار النشر: دار الفكر - بيروت - 1993

One of the reasons of not mentioning the names of the Ahl Bayt maybe that God wanted to test the Muslim nation with this and wanted to see who comes out successful in the end. To explain this we need to explain a few points:

1. God has promised, I shall test all people and all nations, and has also pointed out to this fact in different places of the Quran.

2. The way God tests his creations had been different in different cases, for instance sometimes with the creation of Adam God asked the Angels to prostrate and so they were tested in this manner, and then some were tested by ordering not to fish on Sundays like in the case of Jews, and so in the end God shall test every one with different conditions.

3. One of the ways that God test his people is by how they follow their Prophet. There are some ways God tests the people:

  • The prophet is introduced to the people from God, his rank his position, and the respect and authority he has been granted by God
  • And then God commands the people to abide by the teaching of the prophet

4. By not mentioning the names of the Imams in the Quran, Allah has tested the Muslims to see how many of them are the real abiders to the word of their lord and which of them are the misguided

  • The late Syed Abdul Husain Sharf-udeen in his book ‘Falsafe al misaaq wal wilayah’, when answering this question mentions, ‘Arabs or to be specific Quraysh had understood the fact that when the Prophet of Islam wanted Islam to progress into different parts of the society, he had no option to kill a few of the people who were in his way, and for this act he had used Ali in more than one places, now the Arabs were looking for a payback and who better than Ali, when the Prophet has passed away the people had taken their revenge by trying to destroys Ali’s social life.

On the other hand, when they had seen how close Imam Ali was to the prophet, it was only but natural that they become jealous, after the Prophet passed away was the time when they could easily seek their revenge. The Arabs were well aware that when the prophet passes away, the caliphate would be handed over to the household of the prophet, i.e. the Bani Hashim and in it shall to proceed, this was to many of the Arabs not acceptable and they long before the prophet died had planned to snatch this right form the Ahl bayt, on one of the occasions we find Umar as saying to ibn abbas “Quraysh does not wish that prophet-hood and Imamatee both be granted to Bani Hashim”.

By having understood these matters we understand that the concept of Imamatee was a very difficult concept for the prophet to convey to the people, on one side it was part of the basis of religion, because the prophet had to leave a successor behind and on the other hand we had people who were influential in Quraysh and were not ready to swear allegiance to Ali Ibn Abi Talib. Allah had known that these people would do anything they possibly could to get their way done, be it even editing the Quran, and erase from it even the most basic of verses. So in this case we understand that the Prophet during his life time had insisted on the caliphate of Ali after his demise, but Allah had not bought the names of the Ahl bayt in the Quran to protect it from harm of the people.

The signs of them turning their faces away from the prophet were visible in the last days of the prophets life, first when a group had planned to kill the prophet on the night of the Aqabah, on Thursday a few days before the passing away of the prophet, certain people did not allow the prophet to write his will because they believed that if the prophet were to write the will he would clearly state Ali as his successor and his household to be the rightful heirs. The third event where we can clearly see is that when the prophet had asked a certain few to go with Osama and join Zaid to fight against the Romans, they wouldn’t leave just because they thought that in their absence the caliphate shall be granted to Ali and they would miss the chance of ruling the growing Islamic empire.

So when Allah had decided not to mention the names of the Ahl Bayt in the Quran, the task was left upon the Prophet of Islam to pass this message to the true followers, and show the people his descendant, in the 23 years of Islamic propagation the Prophet would introduce Imam Ali as his heir and the caliph of Muslims after him. The example which we have here to show is when the Prophet had invited his near kin for dinner on the 3rd night of propagation, the prophet clearly mentioned that: “This Ali – my brother is my successor therefore listen to what he has to say and obey him.”

This is the procedure how the prophet conveyed the message of Allah about the caliphate of the Holy house hold, this way the message was also conveyed and the Quran was also protected from the vice of the evil.

Holy Quran says:

016: 44 with clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). and we have also sent down unto You (O Muhammad ) the Reminder and the advice (the Qur'ân), that You may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

Like I said I don't have time to read your long copy and paste . Re read my reply and answer it directly without copy and pasting too much. This is your problem you never seem to get to the point but beat around the bush with your long copy and paste. Stick to the point.

Also tell me how you explain letter 6 where those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar uthman and now ali are referred to as momineen

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Like I said I don't have time to read your long copy and paste . Re read my reply and answer it directly without copy and pasting too much. This is your problem you never seem to get to the point but beat around the bush with your long copy and paste. Stick to the point.

Also tell me how you explain letter 6 where those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar uthman and now ali are referred to as momineen

 

 

(1) Copied and past? Please give me the site where I used, on this Particular post please.

(2) You are Blind even in English, Did you not read my reply? Imam Ali (A.s) was Explaining to Muwaiyah how his stance on Caliph is Incorrect, read the letter properly, Where does he say I approve of the Caliphs?

(3) your being narrow here. 

(4) The Narration I use are they not Clear? Who is being Ignorant here?

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(1) Copied and past? Please give me the site where I used, on this Particular post please.

(2) You are Blind even in English, Did you not read my reply? Imam Ali (A.s) was Explaining to Muwaiyah how his stance on Caliph is Incorrect, read the letter properly, Where does he say I approve of the Caliphs?

(3) your being narrow here.

(4) The Narration I use are they not Clear? Who is being Ignorant here?

Il answer you tonight as I'm off to work. Like I said in my original post, why has imam ali called those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar usman and now him momineen

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Il answer you tonight as I'm off to work. Like I said in my original post, why has imam ali called those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar usman and now him momineen

 

 

Start reading and Stop Ignoring he never " Said Momieneed" Read brother, its not hard, He never Referred to those who gave allegiance to them as "Mo'omineen" and in the letter he never approved of Umar, Abu bakr, or uthman, he is clearly Explaining the issue of Caliphate and therefore the Caliphate of Muaiyah Would be wrong, that is the Hujja.

 

 

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There is something i would like to add to this brothers. Why did Hazrath Ali (as) miss out on being the third Khalif of the Muslims??? What was the condition, set out by the committee arranged by the second Khalif, which Hazrath Ali (as) refused and therefore rejected Khilaafath on such grounds???

One of the conditions set out by the committee, to chose the next Khalif was that, you must live up to and govern according to the Seerath and ways of the Shaikhain (the previous two Khalifs). Hazrath Ali (as) refused to accept this and disapproved the ways of the Shaikhain. Hazrath Ali (as) said "i will rule according to Quran and Sunnah and live up to and govern, according to the Seerath and way of the Prophet (pbuh) and pass judgement by my own understanding of Quran and Sunnah, since i have far greater and better knowledge and information of the two (Quran and Sunnah) than anyone after the Messenger".

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There is something i would like to add to this brothers. Why did Hazrath Ali (as) miss out on being the third Khalif of the Muslims??? What was the condition, set out by the committee arranged by the second Khalif, which Hazrath Ali (as) refused and therefore rejected Khilaafath on such grounds???

One of the conditions set out by the committee, to chose the next Khalif was that, you must live up to and govern according to the Seerath and ways of the Shaikhain (the previous two Khalifs). Hazrath Ali (as) refused to accept this and disapproved the ways of the Shaikhain. Hazrath Ali (as) said "i will rule according to Quran and Sunnah and live up to and govern, according to the Seerath and way of the Prophet (pbuh) and pass judgement by my own understanding of Quran and Sunnah, since i have far greater and better knowledge and information of the two (Quran and Sunnah) than anyone after the Messenger".

 

 

yes Indeed, In Puts a Question Mark on How Where did the "Shaykhain" Sharia come from? What was its Origin? We only know the Sharia of Rasul Allah. Its Also Ironic, Since Imam Ali (a.s) is the most Knowledgeable and they make their Own Laws according to what they want to believe.

 

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Start reading and Stop Ignoring he never " Said Momieneed" Read brother, its not hard, He never Referred to those who gave allegiance to them as "Mo'omineen" and in the letter he never approved of Umar, Abu bakr, or uthman, he is clearly Explaining the issue of Caliphate and therefore the Caliphate of Muaiyah Would be wrong, that is the Hujja.

Are you blind or in a total state of denial??

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى.

Those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar uthman and now ali are referred to as momineen, as you can see above.

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Are you blind or in a total state of denial??

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى.

Those who swore allegiance to abu bakr umar uthman and now ali are referred to as momineen, as you can see above.

 

 

 

 

 

(bismillah)

 

 

 

(1) I advise you first to learn Some Arabic:

 

 

(2) 

 

 

 

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away. By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

 

 

 
إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى
 
 
 
وَلَعَمْرِي، يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، لَئِنْ نَظَرْتَ بِعَقْلِكَ دُونَ هَوَاكَ لَتَجِدَ نِّي أَبْرَأَ النَّاسِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَلَتَعْلَمَنَّ أَنِّي كُنْتُ فِي عُزْلَة عَنْهُ، إِلاَّ أَنْ تَتَجَنَّى ; فَتَجَنَّ مَا بَدَا لَكَ! وَالسَّلاَمُ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

 

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

 

 

In This Light we find Our Imam Ali (a.s) was Talking about the Decision, Which the Muhajreen and the Ansar made on the basis (according to 'THEM' the Muhajreen and the Ansar) to satisfy Allah, and this does not show that Imam Ali (a.s) Approved of it, or claimed it was righteous, He used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah since he was appointed by Umar. 

_________________

Adding to what I said Earlier, He is not Referring to Ansar, nor Muhajreen, nor Uthman, nor Abu bakr, Nor Umar, but he is referring to the All the Muslim Believers as a Whole as he is Stating the "way of Thinking"  of the Ansar on how "They" sought Shura, and Imam Ali (a.s) used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah. Brother This is very clear, Read it for your self and use your logic. In One who reads Arabic can see this. its really that simple.

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(bismillah)

(1) I advise you first to learn Some Arabic:

(2)

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away. By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى

وَلَعَمْرِي، يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، لَئِنْ نَظَرْتَ بِعَقْلِكَ دُونَ هَوَاكَ لَتَجِدَ نِّي أَبْرَأَ النَّاسِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَلَتَعْلَمَنَّ أَنِّي كُنْتُ فِي عُزْلَة عَنْهُ، إِلاَّ أَنْ تَتَجَنَّى ; فَتَجَنَّ مَا بَدَا لَكَ! وَالسَّلاَمُ.

When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

In This Light we find Our Imam Ali (a.s) was Talking about the Decision, Which the Muhajreen and the Ansar made on the basis (according to 'THEM' the Muhajreen and the Ansar) to satisfy Allah, and this does not show that Imam Ali (a.s) Approved of it, or claimed it was righteous, He used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah since he was appointed by Umar.

_________________

Adding to what I said Earlier, He is not Referring to Ansar, nor Muhajreen, nor Uthman, nor Abu bakr, Nor Umar, but he is referring to the All the Muslim Believers as a Whole as he is Stating the "way of Thinking" of the Ansar on how "They" sought Shura, and Imam Ali (a.s) used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah. Brother This is very clear, Read it for your self and use your logic. In One who reads Arabic can see this. its really that simple.

I advise YOU learn Arabic. The word used is momineen. If you read the letter without the brackets you will see the truth. Also read the letter without the bias tafsir below it.

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Yours and ameen's interpretation of momin and Muslim is hilarious lol. For your information Muslim is he who believes in ALL usul's and furus and a momin is a true practicing believer.

If we can reject an usul and still remain Muslim it beats the purpose of it being an usul!!! Lol.

Oh well.... Some people are and will always be deluded and ignorant

Edited by Just the truth

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Yours and ameen's interpretation of momin and Muslim is hilarious lol. For your information and Muslim is he who believes in ALL usul's and furus and a momin is a true practicing believer.

If we can reject an usul and still remain Muslim it beats the purpose of it being an usul!!! Lol.

Oh well.... Some people are and will always be deluded and ignorant

 

 

(1) First of all I am not concerned about what M'omin means, Look at where its been used brother.

(2) I gave you an explanation on Usul Very well, and here you made a once sentence statement, What is your Objection?

(3) yes brother People who Ignore their own , Narrations, books, Scholars, And Refuse to give Information about Which school of thought they follow are Ignorant.  

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What did the people of Israel (Bani Isra'eel) do??? They killed, one after the other, every single Messenger, that was sent for further guidance, after Hazrath Moses (as). And how did they (Bani Isra'eel) treat Hazrath Jesus (as) and the bible???

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