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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Statement:

IF I reject angels will I remain a Muslim because according to your theory we can.

 

False I never claimed such ( this proves that you do not read at all)  I clearly said:

You cannot Disbelief in Angles as it is part of knowing that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him Received revelations and Commandments thought Gabrial (a.s) so such a Situation would not really come into or Exist in the first place, never heard of a School of thought, that has such beliefs, unless you can mention to us some. Your Foundations are not ours and nor ours is your, what we Include in it is are those of who become a follower of Ahlulbayt (a.s), so there is a Major Difference, to become a follower of Ahlulbayt you would need to have faith and Understanding in Imamah and to be Knowledgeable about it. but to become a mere Muslim is to have faith and understanding some of the Foundations, That is the difference between a Mere Muslim and those who are Faithful, as there are levels of belief, there are also levels of Disbelief.   

 

And:

 

 Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever


in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t] 

Statement:

Please could you explain letter 58 and in letter 6 you get all the answers you need. 
 

 

page 20, post 485#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

 

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-20

 

 

Page 20, post 497#; (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-20

 

 

Page 22, post 535#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

 

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-22

 

 

Statement:

You still having told me the meaning if the verse "do not obey a sinner"

 

Don't Obey them.
 

Statement:

What do you exactly mean by this verse. "Do no obey a sinner". 

 

Simple. Don't obey those who sin.

(wasalam)

 


 

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Statement:

IF I reject angels will I remain a Muslim because according to your theory we can.

False I never claimed such ( this proves that you do not read at all) I clearly said:

You cannot Disbelief in Angles as it is part of knowing that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him Received revelations and Commandments thought Gabrial (a.s) so such a Situation would not really come into or Exist in the first place, never heard of a School of thought, that has such beliefs, unless you can mention to us some. Your Foundations are not ours and nor ours is your, what we Include in it is are those of who become a follower of Ahlulbayt (a.s), so there is a Major Difference, to become a follower of Ahlulbayt you would need to have faith and Understanding in Imamah and to be Knowledgeable about it. but to become a mere Muslim is to have faith and understanding some of the Foundations, That is the difference between a Mere Muslim and those who are Faithful, as there are levels of belief, there are also levels of Disbelief.

And:

Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever

in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t]

Statement:

Please could you explain letter 58 and in letter 6 you get all the answers you need.

page 20, post 485#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context)

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-20

Page 20, post 497#; (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context)

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-20

Page 22, post 535#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context)

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-22

Statement:

You still having told me the meaning if the verse "do not obey a sinner"

Don't Obey them.

Statement:

What do you exactly mean by this verse. "Do no obey a sinner".

Simple. Don't obey those who sin.

(wasalam)

You obviously don't read or you do read and you don't understand.

I was giving you an example yet you have still not answered the question or you are deliberately running in circles brother.

Il ask you again and this time please try to atleast understand what I'm saying.

Firstly I never said that you said I don't believe in angels. The point I'm getting at is that IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I reject angels would you regard me a Muslim yes or no .

Don't answer back with a long reply telling me why I can't reject angels because I know I can't but let's say IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I did would you consider me a Muslim.

I can't find your reply regarding letter 58 please could you expand on it. Thank you. You still havnt proven your stance on letter 6 please could you expand on it.

So in that verse we are told not to obey "sinners". Could you define "sinners" for me. Ie; who is considered a sinner??

Assalamu alaykum

Edited by Just the truth

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I have given you the translation and meaning, not once but many times over. Now it's about time you put your self in the next gear and start moving, rather than being stuck in the first gear. And for your information i'm not wasting time. There is nothing in my posts to sugest that.

You've asked brother Islam History the same questions many times over and he has replied to you, according to his own thought opinion and point of view but it seems to me you're not satisfied. Why don't you come on over and ask me the same question and see what you get out of me??? You never know, you might be surprised.

Brother just the truth, tell me are you an Isna Ashar??? Meaning do you believe in the Hadith of the 12 Khalifs??? Do you believe in the coming of Mahdi???? I know you're extremely terrible at answering but if you do find the courage and strength to answer, then I shall take it from there.

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I have given you the translation and meaning, not once but many times over. Now it's about time you put your self in the next gear and start moving, rather than being stuck in the first gear. And for your information i'm not wasting time. There is nothing in my posts to sugest that.

You've asked brother Islam History the same questions many times over and he has replied to you, according to his own thought opinion and point of view but it seems to me you're not satisfied. Why don't you come on over and ask me the same question and see what you get out of me??? You never know, you might be surprised.

Brother just the truth, tell me are you an Isna Ashar??? Meaning do you believe in the Hadith of the 12 Khalifs??? Do you believe in the coming of Mahdi???? I know you're extremely terrible at answering but if you do find the courage and strength to answer, then I shall take it from there.

Brother AMEEN like I said I'm not interested in your home made translation. Bring me a translation with a tafsir

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When it comes to us normal humans, everything is home made my friend. You have your books, which your scholars label authentic from A to Z then, you totally reject bits and pieces from those books. You want a translation and tafseer?? Who's??? You haven't translated verse 4:59 for me and discussed it's meaning. What are you really afraid of??? Getting caught up in a discussion??? Are you afraid that you might end up, where you can't get yourself out off???

I asked you about the Hadith of the 12 Khalifs and a few questions relating to it. Once again you haven't responded. There is definately something that, you are very afraid of. If there is nothing about the 12 Shia Imaam in the Quran and there is plenty in the Sunnah and is accepted by the Ahle Sunnah as authentic, then why do you reject it??? Either completely deny the Hadiths and accept them as not true and completely disregard your authentic books and then, become an absolute Quranist and start taking everything from the Quran and if you can't get a precise verse, what ever the hell that means, then disregard everything or get your act together.

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Ok fine you never called me a kafir, but you said rejecting Imamate which Is a fundamental makes you are kafir, so 1 add 1 is 2.

AMEEN how can we discuss this verse when we don't Agee on its translation!!!!!!

This is why I'm asking you to bring me translation and tafsir

Assalamu alaykum

I don't think the disagreement has much to do with the translation but it rather has more to do with the meaning. Why don't you put your understanding and explanation forward and we can discuss on it.

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I don't think the disagreement has much to do with the translation but it rather has more to do with the meaning. Why don't you put your understanding and explanation forward and we can discuss on it.

Why don't you put your translation and tafsir forward so we can discuss it.

When it comes to us normal humans, everything is home made my friend. You have your books, which your scholars label authentic from A to Z then, you totally reject bits and pieces from those books. You want a translation and tafseer?? Who's??? You haven't translated verse 4:59 for me and discussed it's meaning. What are you really afraid of??? Getting caught up in a discussion??? Are you afraid that you might end up, where you can't get yourself out off???

I asked you about the Hadith of the 12 Khalifs and a few questions relating to it. Once again you haven't responded. There is definately something that, you are very afraid of. If there is nothing about the 12 Shia Imaam in the Quran and there is plenty in the Sunnah and is accepted by the Ahle Sunnah as authentic, then why do you reject it??? Either completely deny the Hadiths and accept them as not true and completely disregard your authentic books and then, become an absolute Quranist and start taking everything from the Quran and if you can't get a precise verse, what ever the hell that means, then disregard everything or get your act together.

AMEEN bring a translation and tafsir of verse 4:59 to prove your stance.

You said.

become an absolute Quranist and start taking everything from the Quran and if you can't get a precise verse, what ever the hell that means, then disregard everything or get your act together

MY ANSWER

Subhanallah. If I'm a quranist for following the guidelines of surah 3:7 then I'm a proud quranist. Alhamdulillah.

"Whatever the hell that means"

Wow beautiful so you don't even know that foundations should be in precise verses. Mashallah.

Edited by Just the truth

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I have put the translation and meaning forward and it is open for discussion.

So you're a very proud Quranist??? Really??? What??? For having absolute disregard for what the Prophet (pbuh) has to say??? And you call certain books, not just by their name but you put sehih at the begining and label them authentic.

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Where does it say that foundation have to be in precise verses??? And what is precise according to you and what isn't??? You haven't answered or commented on anything till yet but lets see.

The 12 Khalifs, the coming of Mahdi, give me a precise verse or a clear Hadith that, one has to obey their parents. I have had absolutely nothing from you on these issues.

Anyways brother just the truth, what is your opinion on Islam and Eeman??? Can you define them and elaborate??? I know i'm not making it easy for you but it's just a matter of time that, soon you will eventually disappear to save your skin from these questions.

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I have put the translation and meaning forward and it is open for discussion.

So you're a very proud Quranist??? Really??? What??? For having absolute disregard for what the Prophet (pbuh) has to say??? And you call certain books, not just by their name but you put sehih at the begining and label them authentic.

Like I said. I have no interest in your home made translation and tafseer please bring me a reliable translation and tafseer.

Where does it say that foundation have to be in precise verses??? And what is precise according to you and what isn't??? You haven't answered or commented on anything till yet but lets see.

The 12 Khalifs, the coming of Mahdi, give me a precise verse or a clear Hadith that, one has to obey their parents. I have had absolutely nothing from you on these issues.

Anyways brother just the truth, what is your opinion on Islam and Eeman??? Can you define them and elaborate??? I know i'm not making it easy for you but it's just a matter of time that, soon you will eventually disappear to save your skin from these questions.

AMEEN firstly stop bouncing from verse to hadith then hadith to verse then back to verse to hadith.

Secondly read surah 3:7.

Thirdly you want to know my opinion on islam and eeman. Well islam is a beautiful religion and eeman is belief.

Fourthly. Actually AMEEN you've made my life ten times easier and I'm enjoying this "debate" with you (if that's what it's called).

Fifth. Don't worry yourself I AM NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!!!

Sixth. Obeying parents is not an usul so it does not need to be in a "precise verse"

Edited by Just the truth

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Give me a reliable translation and tafseer??? Excuse me??? What exactly is reliable according to you??? Care to elaborate??? Stop bouncing??? Excuse me??? It's not easy to chase you and it isn't difficult either. If you stop running from questions and comments then, may be i wouldn't need to bounce after you.

Islam is a beautiful religion and Eeman is belief??? What??? Is that it??? Come on tiger, you can do better than that. You have Muslim and Momin. What's the difference???

You're enjoying the debate??? Really??? Well you're not answering, you aren't commenting and neither explaining, so you really must be enjoying it. If that's what you call it???? Well we could call it much more, if you stopped your sarcastic behaviour and your childish attitude and started discussing and debating, like a true and sensible adult but i guess you're into dummy, prams and bibs and got knows what else. Yes mate, it really is fun discussing, excuse me i mean, playing with you.

Excuse me??? You're not going anywhere??? Yippee doo daa! Well you left before and you decided to leg it again, so there is no certainty about you then. Obeying parents isn't an Usool, so there is no need for a precise verse for this??? Ok hot shot, then give me a command or order, from Allah or his Messenger (pbuh), about obeying parents??? You made a claim so either back it or just run for it again. The choice is yours. No answer or comment from you, about the 12 Khalifs or the coming of Mahdi then???? What a shame.

Edited by Ameen

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Give me a reliable translation and tafseer??? Excuse me??? What exactly is reliable according to you??? Care to elaborate??? Stop bouncing??? Excuse me??? It's not easy to chase you and it isn't difficult either. If you stop running from questions and comments then, may be i wouldn't need to bounce after you.

Islam is a beautiful religion and Eeman is belief??? What??? Is that it??? Come on tiger, you can do better than that. You have Muslim and Momin. What's the difference???

You're enjoying the debate??? Really??? Well you're not answering, you aren't commenting and neither explaining, so you really must be enjoying it. If that's what you call it???? Well we could call it much more, if you stopped your sarcastic behaviour and your childish attitude and started discussing and debating, like a true and sensible adult but i guess you're into dummy, prams and bibs and got knows what else. Yes mate, it really is fun discussing, excuse me i mean, playing with you.

Excuse me??? You're not going anywhere??? Yippee doo daa! Well you left before and you decided to leg it again, so there is no certainty about you then. Obeying parents isn't an Usool, so there is no need for a precise verse for this??? Ok hot shot, then give me a command or order, from Allah or his Messenger (pbuh), about obeying parents??? You made a claim so either back it or just run for it again. The choice is yours. No answer or comment from you, about the 12 Khalifs or the coming of Mahdi then???? What a shame.

Lol.

Stop wasting time and bring a translation and tafseer to prove your stance on fee shayin. I also gave you a link to shia reference regarding obedience to parents.

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

You obviously don't read or you do read and you don't understand.

 

Really? can you please explain to me or at least show me my own irrationality on this issue brother? on what concept did I fail to sight and explore your questioning?

Statement:
I was giving you an example yet you have still not answered the question or you are deliberately running in circles brother.

 

example? brother the Answer is right above you, and the issues you mentioned, yet you haven't refuted any of my well comprehended analyses's whatsoever. Can you please at least make proper statement with some of my own statements where you find that I seem to be to 'running around in circles' as you say?

 

 

Statement:

Firstly I never said that you said I don't believe in angels. The point I'm getting at is that IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I reject angels would you regard me a Muslim yes or no Don't answer back with a long reply telling me why I can't reject angels because I know I can't but let's say IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I did would you consider me a Muslim.
 
 
 
First and foremost dear bother I really wish in at least one of your recent replies that you uses some rationality and proper manners so we are able to get along, although it seems to you this is some sort of massive debate to know who is wrong and who is right, in reality its not. You are mistaken since from the very first till to day, you have no proof or evidence in any form/space whatsoever. Now, in both sects Sunni and Shia we have the four Common Usul, which we agree upon although we have different descriptions of it. To become a Muslim one must acknowledge theses four foundations without any doubt. We have five Usul, so in your question whether you are Muslim or not, yes you are as long as you believe in the four foundations (When Believing in the two 'Shahadatain' the rest of the other two principles will follow, (3) The angels and (4) the Day of judgement, so I did not claim that only the two 'Shahdatain' are Obligatory, as you have falsely accused me of such false). For us on the other hand leaving Imamah our does not mean you are not a Muslim believer, but you are not a 'faithful' Nor a 'follower of Ahlulbayt (a.s), to become a follower of 'Ahlulbayt (a.s)' you must Believe in Imamah to become a 'Faithful' Leaving one principle out that is in accordance to use, does not interfere with your beliefs, nor does your interfere with your in the manner to reject your Identity as a Muslim Believer. To become a 'Faithful' At the highest ranks of beliefs then it is mandatory upon you to believe in Imam Ali (a.s) as your first Caliph and the Caliphs after him (a.s). So in Simpler way Let me Lay it out for you in a Diagram, since most of this period of time you have shown your self not be fond of reading at all:

The Usuls of both the Sunnah and the Shia in Total:

1. Belief there is not God but God: ( Believing this you then are obligated to believe in (1) his prophet (3) Angels & (4) Day of Judgement ) ------->

 
-----> This is Mandatory upon all Believers of The One Creator to become a 'Muslim (believer of God and his Message)' :(Normal/low Rank in Faith)
 
2. Prophet Muhammad is his Messenger: ( Believing this you then are obligated to believe in (3) Angels & (4) Day of Judgement and (5) When you come to the Recognition that Ahlulbayt are the path of Truth and they are the Guide after the prophet, you are 'Then' Obligated to follow Them. Rejecting this Take yous out of being a Follower Of Ahlulbayt (Faithful), but does not take you out of being a mere Muslim.  
 
 
 
3. Angels of Allah (All must believe) -----> (Obligatory Upon All)
 
4. Day of Judgement: (All must Believe) -----> (Obligatory Upon All)
 
5. Imamah (Believe in the Twelve Imams and the Successors (Imams) and All of successors previously from the time of man) - In the Clarity of this the Guide to being a Total Faithful are the Highest Rank (This Includes Sticking the Arkan/Forro'a) One Must Follow & Obey Ahlulbayt Peace be upon them.
 
 
- The prophet Clearly said and we all Acknowledge his : " I have left in you (Ummah) Two Weighy Things, Hold on to them and you will 'Never' Go astray, The Book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt....."  ( To Hold on, is to Follow and obey therefore to Obey them and Follow them is Obligatory upon you) 
 
 
 
There is a major difference between the mere 'Muslim' and the 'Faithful Muslim' as Allah says in the Quran Surat Al hujraat verse 14:
 
 

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا ۖ قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَٰكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَا يَلِتْكُم مِّنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

 

 


The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."


 

In the light of this verse we find there is a Difference in the Rank of Faith between the one who merely Submits to Allah, and the one who faiths enters his heart fully. So that is in our school of thought to become a 'Faithful' you must Obey the Twelve Caliphs after the the prophet peace be upon him, as he as told us to follow his Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the previous thread we have proven to you their Identity.

 

 



Now your Recent Arguments of been the true Identity of the Ahlulbayt peace be upon them all. Now you must now or Well you do very well know who they are, as we have not 'Failed' To bring upon you your own sunni Literature and have given you clear proof, which till today, you have not made any Sense of and failed to Refute them, and in most cases you never responded to them at all, causing you to go around other threads claiming false claims, when your ideology has not been proven. This is why you forced me to reply to you at most of the threads in the Sunni' Shia Dialogue. We now here Come to the verse 4:59, we you have 'At all' and I mean ' never at all' Proven its so called 'Unspecific-ness' which you dearly hold on to sadly. If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma'sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter. Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community). Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable. Besides, if it would be possible for an Imam to commit sin, it would be the duty of other people to prevent him from doing so. (Because every Muslim is obliged to forbid other people from unlawful acts.) In such a case, Imam will be held in contempt, and instead of being the leader of community, he will become their followers, and his leadership will be of no use as far as religion is concerned. Imam is the defender of divine law, and this work can not be entrusted to fallible hands, nor can any such person maintain this task properly. Thus infallibility is an indispensable condition for a divinely appointed Imam or Caliph who is the protector and interpreter of the religious law. Allah, Exalted, stated in Qur’an In verse 4:59. This verse obliges the Muslims to obey two things: First, to obey Allah; second, to obey Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr). The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Qur’an uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again.
 

Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr.

 

It is also clear from the above verse that Ulul-Amr are not restricted to messengers otherwise Allah would only have said: "Obey Allah, and Obey Messenger only.”But He added Ulul-Amr (those who are given authority by Allah). This is one of the places where the concept of Imams and the necessity of obedience to them come from.

 

 

Also from the verse 4:59 we concluded that Ulul-Amr have been given exactly the same authority over Muslims as of Messenger, and that the obedience of Ulul-Amr has the same standing as the obedience of the Messenger.

 

It naturally follows that Ulul-Amr must also be sinless (Ma'sum) and free from any type of error, otherwise, their obedience would not have been joined with the obedience of the Prophet and without any condition. The Commander of Believers, Imam ‘Ali a.s., said:

 

 

The one who disobeys Allah is not to be obeyed; and "verily obedience is for Allah and of His Messenger and those vested with authority.”Verily, Allah ordered (people) to obey the Messenger because he was sinless and clean (pure), who would not tell people to disobey Allah; and verily He ordered (people) to obey those vested with authority because they are sinless and clean (pure), and would not tell people to disobey Allah.”(Ilal al-Sharaye', by Shaikh al-Saduq, v1, p123).

 

 

 

 

 

____________________

Concerning Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha:

 

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away. By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

 

 

 
إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى
 
 
 
وَلَعَمْرِي، يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، لَئِنْ نَظَرْتَ بِعَقْلِكَ دُونَ هَوَاكَ لَتَجِدَ نِّي أَبْرَأَ النَّاسِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَلَتَعْلَمَنَّ أَنِّي كُنْتُ فِي عُزْلَة عَنْهُ، إِلاَّ أَنْ تَتَجَنَّى ; فَتَجَنَّ مَا بَدَا لَكَ! وَالسَّلاَمُ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

 

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

 

 

In This Light we find Our Imam Ali (a.s) was Talking about the Decision, Which the Muhajreen and the Ansar made on the basis (according to 'THEM' the Muhajreen and the Ansar) to satisfy Allah, and this does not show that Imam Ali (a.s) Approved of it, or claimed it was righteous, He used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah since he was appointed by Umar. 



_________


Letter 53:

 

I have no Objection to this brother? What what is your problem? in the light of this No doubt as a whole Muslim Community, We follow the prophet peace be upon him and obey his orders (the Sunnah) but you are very Blind brother you did not read the whole Letter (As Typically) we site the following two Paragraphs from the letter:

 

 

 

Know that the people consist of classes who prosper only with the help of one another, and they are not independent of one another. Among them are the army of Allah, then the secretarial workers of the common people and the chiefs, then the dispensers of justice, then those engaged in law and order, then the payers of head tax (jizyah) and land tax (kharaj) from the protected unbelievers and the common Muslims, then there are the traders and the men of industry and then the lowest class of the needy and the destitute. Allah has fixed the share of every one of them and laid down His precepts about the limits of each in His Book (Qur'an) and the sunnah of His Prophet by way of of a settlement which is preserved with us.

 

 

 

 

 
وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الرَّعِيَّةَ طَبَقَاتٌ لاَ يَصْلُحُ بَعْضُهَا إلاَّ بِبَعْض، وَلاَ غِنَى بِبَعْضِهَا عَنْ بَعْض: فَمِنْهَا جُنُودُ اللهِ،مِنْهَا كُتَّابُ الْعَامَّةِ وَالْخَاصَّةِ، وَمِنْهَا قُضَاةُ الْعَدْلِ، وَمِنهَا عُمَّالُ الاْنْصَافِ وَالرِّفْقِ، وَمِنْهَا أَهْلُ الْجِزْيَةِ وَالْخَراجِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ وَمُسْلِمَةِ النَّاسِ، وَمِنْهَا التُّجَّارُ وَأَهْلُ الصِّنَاعَاتِ، وَمِنهَا الطَّبَقَةُ السُّفْلَى مِنْ ذَوِي الْحَاجَةِ وَالْمَسْكَنَةِ، وَكُلٌّ قَدْ سَمَّى اللهُ سَهْمَهُ، وَوَضَعَ عَلَى حَدِّهِ وَفَرِيضَتِهِ فِي كِتَابِهِ أَوْ سُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله)عَهْداً مِنْهُ عِنْدَنَا مَحْفُوظاً.

 

 

_______________

 

Its clear Imam Ali (a.s) is telling Malik al ashtar (r.a) that The Sunnah (The Orders of the prophet) is Preserved with them (Imam Ali (a.s)), and this shows that the orders from Ahlulbayt (a.s) are to be followed brother. In today's World we all follow the orders of the prophet as we claim, but yet we have different methods of prayers, Wudu, Dua's, aspects and jurisprudence, so who should we take from brother? Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman? Or should we be talking from Imam Ali (a.s)? since he preserved the Commandments of the prophet peace be upon him. Brother your Justification are false.
______________

 

 

 

 

 


   


Statement:

So in that verse we are told not to obey "sinners". Could you define "sinners" for me. Ie; who is considered a sinner??

 

This verse is ver clear brother, Allah is Ordering you to now obey those who sin, Against the prophets Commandments and His Ahlulbayt peace be upon them All. One who Disobeys Allah, we cannot take him as a guide or Obey him. So brother how can a prophet Sin? When Allah has sent him down to Humanity to guide his servants? So This not only proves that prophets Must be Infallible, but Uli al amr must be to. Allah would never tell us to obey those who sin. He clearly said do not obey those who sin.

 

 

في ايمان الله و عليكم السلام

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Statement:

You obviously don't read or you do read and you don't understand.

Really? can you please explain to me or at least show me my own irrationality on this issue brother? on what concept did I fail to sight and explore your questioning?

Statement:

I was giving you an example yet you have still not answered the question or you are deliberately running in circles brother.

example? brother the Answer is right above you, and the issues you mentioned, yet you haven't refuted any of my well comprehended analyses's whatsoever. Can you please at least make proper statement with some of my own statements where you find that I seem to be to 'running around in circles' as you say?

Statement:

Firstly I never said that you said I don't believe in angels. The point I'm getting at is that IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I reject angels would you regard me a Muslim yes or no Don't answer back with a long reply telling me why I can't reject angels because I know I can't but let's say IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I did would you consider me a Muslim.

First and foremost dear bother I really wish in at least one of your recent replies that you uses some rationality and proper manners so we are able to get along, although it seems to you this is some sort of massive debate to know who is wrong and who is right, in reality its not. You are mistaken since from the very first till to day, you have no proof or evidence in any form/space whatsoever. Now, in both sects Sunni and Shia we have the four Common Usul, which we agree upon although we have different descriptions of it. To become a Muslim one must acknowledge theses four foundations without any doubt. We have five Usul, so in your question whether you are Muslim or not, yes you are as long as you believe in the four foundations (When Believing in the two 'Shahadatain' the rest of the other two principles will follow, (3) The angels and (4) the Day of judgement, so I did not claim that only the two 'Shahdatain' are Obligatory, as you have falsely accused me of such false). For us on the other hand leaving Imamah our does not mean you are not a Muslim believer, but you are not a 'faithful' Nor a 'follower of Ahlulbayt (a.s), to become a follower of 'Ahlulbayt (a.s)' you must Believe in Imamah to become a 'Faithful' Leaving one principle out that is in accordance to use, does not interfere with your beliefs, nor does your interfere with your in the manner to reject your Identity as a Muslim Believer. To become a 'Faithful' At the highest ranks of beliefs then it is mandatory upon you to believe in Imam Ali (a.s) as your first Caliph and the Caliphs after him (a.s). So in Simpler way Let me Lay it out for you in a Diagram, since most of this period of time you have shown your self not be fond of reading at all:

The Usuls of both the Sunnah and the Shia in Total:

1. Belief there is not God but God: ( Believing this you then are obligated to believe in (1) his prophet (3) Angels & (4) Day of Judgement ) ------->

-----> This is Mandatory upon all Believers of The One Creator to become a 'Muslim (believer of God and his Message)' :(Normal/low Rank in Faith)

2. Prophet Muhammad is his Messenger: ( Believing this you then are obligated to believe in (3) Angels & (4) Day of Judgement and (5) When you come to the Recognition that Ahlulbayt are the path of Truth and they are the Guide after the prophet, you are 'Then' Obligated to follow Them. Rejecting this Take yous out of being a Follower Of Ahlulbayt (Faithful), but does not take you out of being a mere Muslim.

3. Angels of Allah (All must believe) -----> (Obligatory Upon All)

4. Day of Judgement: (All must Believe) -----> (Obligatory Upon All)

5. Imamah (Believe in the Twelve Imams and the Successors (Imams) and All of successors previously from the time of man) - In the Clarity of this the Guide to being a Total Faithful are the Highest Rank (This Includes Sticking the Arkan/Forro'a) One Must Follow & Obey Ahlulbayt Peace be upon them.

- The prophet Clearly said and we all Acknowledge his : " I have left in you (Ummah) Two Weighy Things, Hold on to them and you will 'Never' Go astray, The Book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt....." ( To Hold on, is to Follow and obey therefore to Obey them and Follow them is Obligatory upon you)

There is a major difference between the mere 'Muslim' and the 'Faithful Muslim' as Allah says in the Quran Surat Al hujraat verse 14:

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا ۖ قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَٰكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَا يَلِتْكُم مِّنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

In the light of this verse we find there is a Difference in the Rank of Faith between the one who merely Submits to Allah, and the one who faiths enters his heart fully. So that is in our school of thought to become a 'Faithful' you must Obey the Twelve Caliphs after the the prophet peace be upon him, as he as told us to follow his Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the previous thread we have proven to you their Identity.

Now your Recent Arguments of been the true Identity of the Ahlulbayt peace be upon them all. Now you must now or Well you do very well know who they are, as we have not 'Failed' To bring upon you your own sunni Literature and have given you clear proof, which till today, you have not made any Sense of and failed to Refute them, and in most cases you never responded to them at all, causing you to go around other threads claiming false claims, when your ideology has not been proven. This is why you forced me to reply to you at most of the threads in the Sunni' Shia Dialogue. We now here Come to the verse 4:59, we you have 'At all' and I mean ' never at all' Proven its so called 'Unspecific-ness' which you dearly hold on to sadly. If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma'sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter. Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community). Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable. Besides, if it would be possible for an Imam to commit sin, it would be the duty of other people to prevent him from doing so. (Because every Muslim is obliged to forbid other people from unlawful acts.) In such a case, Imam will be held in contempt, and instead of being the leader of community, he will become their followers, and his leadership will be of no use as far as religion is concerned. Imam is the defender of divine law, and this work can not be entrusted to fallible hands, nor can any such person maintain this task properly. Thus infallibility is an indispensable condition for a divinely appointed Imam or Caliph who is the protector and interpreter of the religious law. Allah, Exalted, stated in Qur’an In verse 4:59. This verse obliges the Muslims to obey two things: First, to obey Allah; second, to obey Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr). The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Qur’an uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again.

Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr.

It is also clear from the above verse that Ulul-Amr are not restricted to messengers otherwise Allah would only have said: "Obey Allah, and Obey Messenger only.”But He added Ulul-Amr (those who are given authority by Allah). This is one of the places where the concept of Imams and the necessity of obedience to them come from.

Also from the verse 4:59 we concluded that Ulul-Amr have been given exactly the same authority over Muslims as of Messenger, and that the obedience of Ulul-Amr has the same standing as the obedience of the Messenger.

It naturally follows that Ulul-Amr must also be sinless (Ma'sum) and free from any type of error, otherwise, their obedience would not have been joined with the obedience of the Prophet and without any condition. The Commander of Believers, Imam ‘Ali a.s., said:

The one who disobeys Allah is not to be obeyed; and "verily obedience is for Allah and of His Messenger and those vested with authority.”Verily, Allah ordered (people) to obey the Messenger because he was sinless and clean (pure), who would not tell people to disobey Allah; and verily He ordered (people) to obey those vested with authority because they are sinless and clean (pure), and would not tell people to disobey Allah.”(Ilal al-Sharaye', by Shaikh al-Saduq, v1, p123).

____________________

Concerning Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away. By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ

، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى

رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى

وَلَعَمْرِي، يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، لَئِنْ نَظَرْتَ بِعَقْلِكَ دُونَ هَوَاكَ لَتَجِدَ نِّي أَبْرَأَ النَّاسِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَلَتَعْلَمَنَّ أَنِّي كُنْتُ فِي عُزْلَة عَنْهُ، إِلاَّ أَنْ تَتَجَنَّى ; فَتَجَنَّ مَا بَدَا لَكَ! وَالسَّلاَمُ.

When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

In This Light we find Our Imam Ali (a.s) was Talking about the Decision, Which the Muhajreen and the Ansar made on the basis (according to 'THEM' the Muhajreen and the Ansar) to satisfy Allah, and this does not show that Imam Ali (a.s) Approved of it, or claimed it was righteous, He used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah since he was appointed by Umar.

_________

Letter 53:

I have no Objection to this brother? What what is your problem? in the light of this No doubt as a whole Muslim Community, We follow the prophet peace be upon him and obey his orders (the Sunnah) but you are very Blind brother you did not read the whole Letter (As Typically) we site the following two Paragraphs from the letter:

Know that the people consist of classes who prosper only with the help of one another, and they are not independent of one another. Among them are the army of Allah, then the secretarial workers of the common people and the chiefs, then the dispensers of justice, then those engaged in law and order, then the payers of head tax (jizyah) and land tax (kharaj) from the protected unbelievers and the common Muslims, then there are the traders and the men of industry and then the lowest class of the needy and the destitute. Allah has fixed the share of every one of them and laid down His precepts about the limits of each in His Book (Qur'an) and the sunnah of His Prophet by way of of a settlement which is preserved with us.

وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الرَّعِيَّةَ طَبَقَاتٌ لاَ يَصْلُحُ بَعْضُهَا إلاَّ بِبَعْض، وَلاَ غِنَى بِبَعْضِهَا عَنْ بَعْض: فَمِنْهَا جُنُودُ اللهِ،مِنْهَا كُتَّابُ الْعَامَّةِ وَالْخَاصَّةِ، وَمِنْهَا قُضَاةُ الْعَدْلِ، وَمِنهَا عُمَّالُ الاْنْصَافِ وَالرِّفْقِ، وَمِنْهَا أَهْلُ الْجِزْيَةِ وَالْخَراجِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ وَمُسْلِمَةِ النَّاسِ، وَمِنْهَا التُّجَّارُ وَأَهْلُ الصِّنَاعَاتِ، وَمِنهَا الطَّبَقَةُ السُّفْلَى مِنْ ذَوِي الْحَاجَةِ وَالْمَسْكَنَةِ، وَكُلٌّ قَدْ سَمَّى اللهُ سَهْمَهُ، وَوَضَعَ عَلَى حَدِّهِ وَفَرِيضَتِهِ

فِي كِتَابِهِ أَوْ سُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله)عَهْداً مِنْهُ عِنْدَنَا مَحْفُوظاً

.

_______________

Its clear Imam Ali (a.s) is telling Malik al ashtar (r.a) that The Sunnah (The Orders of the prophet) is Preserved with them (Imam Ali (a.s)), and this shows that the orders from Ahlulbayt (a.s) are to be followed brother. In today's World we all follow the orders of the prophet as we claim, but yet we have different methods of prayers, Wudu, Dua's, aspects and jurisprudence, so who should we take from brother? Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman? Or should we be talking from Imam Ali (a.s)? since he preserved the Commandments of the prophet peace be upon him. Brother your Justification are false.

______________

Statement:

So in that verse we are told not to obey "sinners". Could you define "sinners" for me. Ie; who is considered a sinner??

This verse is ver clear brother, Allah is Ordering you to now obey those who sin, Against the prophets Commandments and His Ahlulbayt peace be upon them All. One who Disobeys Allah, we cannot take him as a guide or Obey him. So brother how can a prophet Sin? When Allah has sent him down to Humanity to guide his servants? So This not only proves that prophets Must be Infallible, but Uli al amr must be to. Allah would never tell us to obey those who sin. He clearly said do not obey those who sin.

في ايمان الله و عليكم السلام

I will reply tonight there's a lot to read and I'm off to work. Will get back to you tonight inshallah

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JustTheTruth It would be helpful to tell us your school of thought So I am able to quote from my your own Scholar which you follow. Can you please Do this? if you refuse to, then you must accept what ever I bring from the Four schools of thought of AhlulSunnah.

(wasalam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Brother just the truth, once again i have given you the translation and meaning of verse 4:59, now you need to put yours forward, for us to move on with our discussion. Or tell me who's translation and tafseer do you accept??? I don't need links, provide me with a verse or hadith that, one should obey their parents, otherwise your claim is false. I'm still waiting for answers and comments on all my questions and points. What is your shcool of thought, so you can be provided with material, concerning your school of thought, so this way you have no excuses to hide behind.

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Assalaamo-Alaikum dear brothers and sisters. I asked a question to brother Just the truth, about Islam and Eemaan. What are the two and what is the difference between them??? Muslim and Momin, who are the two and what is the difference between them??? Who is Muslim and who is a Momin??? But you all know by now, who brother Just the truth is and what he actually stands for. You can't get anything out of him.
 
It is obvious that Islam and Eemaan are two completely different things. Islam means "to submit" and Eemaan means "to believe". Islam is the first stage and Eemaan is the second stage. It would be obvious that, Eemaan is a higher stage then Islam. If you submit to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, that would mean you are and have become a Muslim, since you have just accepted Islam. How would one be a Muslim?
 
You would obviously have to say and give the two testimonies and that would be; 1, I bear witness that there is nobody worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one and has no associate. 2, I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is Allah's messenger and is Allah's last and final spokesman. Now a serious question remains that, how does one become a Momin??? There has to be a way for you to become a Momin.
 
What is Eemaan??? who is a Momin??? how do you become a Momin??? Do we need a testimony for this??? Well you need two testimonies to become a Muslim, so there has to be a testimony, for you to become a Momin. You've submitted to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and you have just become a Muslim. If we only go by the first testimony and submit to Allah but we leave the second testimony and disregard the Messenger (pbuh), would we still become a Muslim??? Have we accepted Islam, in such a case??? would we still be recognized as Muslims, by doing so???
 
Take a look at the following verse and examine it. This clearly tells you that, we have, not one, but two things. Islam and Eemaan. Take a look.
 
49_14.png

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 
 
This verse clearly tells you that, Islam is not enough and there is something else apart from it, which is connected to Islam and is the next stage. Every Momin is undoubtedly a Muslim but every Muslim is not a Momin, as you can see that, this verse clearly tells you.
 
To be continued!

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Statement:

You obviously don't read or you do read and you don't understand.

Really? can you please explain to me or at least show me my own irrationality on this issue brother? on what concept did I fail to sight and explore your questioning?

Statement:

I was giving you an example yet you have still not answered the question or you are deliberately running in circles brother.

example? brother the Answer is right above you, and the issues you mentioned, yet you haven't refuted any of my well comprehended analyses's whatsoever. Can you please at least make proper statement with some of my own statements where you find that I seem to be to 'running around in circles' as you say?

Statement:

Firstly I never said that you said I don't believe in angels. The point I'm getting at is that IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I reject angels would you regard me a Muslim yes or no Don't answer back with a long reply telling me why I can't reject angels because I know I can't but let's say IF IF IF IF IF IF IF I did would you consider me a Muslim.

First and foremost dear bother I really wish in at least one of your recent replies that you uses some rationality and proper manners so we are able to get along, although it seems to you this is some sort of massive debate to know who is wrong and who is right, in reality its not. You are mistaken since from the very first till to day, you have no proof or evidence in any form/space whatsoever. Now, in both sects Sunni and Shia we have the four Common Usul, which we agree upon although we have different descriptions of it. To become a Muslim one must acknowledge theses four foundations without any doubt. We have five Usul, so in your question whether you are Muslim or not, yes you are as long as you believe in the four foundations (When Believing in the two 'Shahadatain' the rest of the other two principles will follow, (3) The angels and (4) the Day of judgement, so I did not claim that only the two 'Shahdatain' are Obligatory, as you have falsely accused me of such false). For us on the other hand leaving Imamah our does not mean you are not a Muslim believer, but you are not a 'faithful' Nor a 'follower of Ahlulbayt (a.s), to become a follower of 'Ahlulbayt (a.s)' you must Believe in Imamah to become a 'Faithful' Leaving one principle out that is in accordance to use, does not interfere with your beliefs, nor does your interfere with your in the manner to reject your Identity as a Muslim Believer. To become a 'Faithful' At the highest ranks of beliefs then it is mandatory upon you to believe in Imam Ali (a.s) as your first Caliph and the Caliphs after him (a.s). So in Simpler way Let me Lay it out for you in a Diagram, since most of this period of time you have shown your self not be fond of reading at all:

The Usuls of both the Sunnah and the Shia in Total:

1. Belief there is not God but God: ( Believing this you then are obligated to believe in (1) his prophet (3) Angels & (4) Day of Judgement ) ------->

-----> This is Mandatory upon all Believers of The One Creator to become a 'Muslim (believer of God and his Message)' :(Normal/low Rank in Faith)

2. Prophet Muhammad is his Messenger: ( Believing this you then are obligated to believe in (3) Angels & (4) Day of Judgement and (5) When you come to the Recognition that Ahlulbayt are the path of Truth and they are the Guide after the prophet, you are 'Then' Obligated to follow Them. Rejecting this Take yous out of being a Follower Of Ahlulbayt (Faithful), but does not take you out of being a mere Muslim.

3. Angels of Allah (All must believe) -----> (Obligatory Upon All)

4. Day of Judgement: (All must Believe) -----> (Obligatory Upon All)

5. Imamah (Believe in the Twelve Imams and the Successors (Imams) and All of successors previously from the time of man) - In the Clarity of this the Guide to being a Total Faithful are the Highest Rank (This Includes Sticking the Arkan/Forro'a) One Must Follow & Obey Ahlulbayt Peace be upon them.

- The prophet Clearly said and we all Acknowledge his : " I have left in you (Ummah) Two Weighy Things, Hold on to them and you will 'Never' Go astray, The Book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt....." ( To Hold on, is to Follow and obey therefore to Obey them and Follow them is Obligatory upon you)

There is a major difference between the mere 'Muslim' and the 'Faithful Muslim' as Allah says in the Quran Surat Al hujraat verse 14:

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا ۖ قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَٰكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ ۖ وَإِن تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَا يَلِتْكُم مِّنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

In the light of this verse we find there is a Difference in the Rank of Faith between the one who merely Submits to Allah, and the one who faiths enters his heart fully. So that is in our school of thought to become a 'Faithful' you must Obey the Twelve Caliphs after the the prophet peace be upon him, as he as told us to follow his Ahlulbayt (a.s) and the previous thread we have proven to you their Identity.

Now your Recent Arguments of been the true Identity of the Ahlulbayt peace be upon them all. Now you must now or Well you do very well know who they are, as we have not 'Failed' To bring upon you your own sunni Literature and have given you clear proof, which till today, you have not made any Sense of and failed to Refute them, and in most cases you never responded to them at all, causing you to go around other threads claiming false claims, when your ideology has not been proven. This is why you forced me to reply to you at most of the threads in the Sunni' Shia Dialogue. We now here Come to the verse 4:59, we you have 'At all' and I mean ' never at all' Proven its so called 'Unspecific-ness' which you dearly hold on to sadly. If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma'sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter. Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community). Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable. Besides, if it would be possible for an Imam to commit sin, it would be the duty of other people to prevent him from doing so. (Because every Muslim is obliged to forbid other people from unlawful acts.) In such a case, Imam will be held in contempt, and instead of being the leader of community, he will become their followers, and his leadership will be of no use as far as religion is concerned. Imam is the defender of divine law, and this work can not be entrusted to fallible hands, nor can any such person maintain this task properly. Thus infallibility is an indispensable condition for a divinely appointed Imam or Caliph who is the protector and interpreter of the religious law. Allah, Exalted, stated in Qur’an In verse 4:59. This verse obliges the Muslims to obey two things: First, to obey Allah; second, to obey Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr). The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Qur’an uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again.

Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr.

It is also clear from the above verse that Ulul-Amr are not restricted to messengers otherwise Allah would only have said: "Obey Allah, and Obey Messenger only.”But He added Ulul-Amr (those who are given authority by Allah). This is one of the places where the concept of Imams and the necessity of obedience to them come from.

Also from the verse 4:59 we concluded that Ulul-Amr have been given exactly the same authority over Muslims as of Messenger, and that the obedience of Ulul-Amr has the same standing as the obedience of the Messenger.

It naturally follows that Ulul-Amr must also be sinless (Ma'sum) and free from any type of error, otherwise, their obedience would not have been joined with the obedience of the Prophet and without any condition. The Commander of Believers, Imam ‘Ali a.s., said:

The one who disobeys Allah is not to be obeyed; and "verily obedience is for Allah and of His Messenger and those vested with authority.”Verily, Allah ordered (people) to obey the Messenger because he was sinless and clean (pure), who would not tell people to disobey Allah; and verily He ordered (people) to obey those vested with authority because they are sinless and clean (pure), and would not tell people to disobey Allah.”(Ilal al-Sharaye', by Shaikh al-Saduq, v1, p123).

____________________

Concerning Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away. By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ

، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى

رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى

وَلَعَمْرِي، يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، لَئِنْ نَظَرْتَ بِعَقْلِكَ دُونَ هَوَاكَ لَتَجِدَ نِّي أَبْرَأَ النَّاسِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَلَتَعْلَمَنَّ أَنِّي كُنْتُ فِي عُزْلَة عَنْهُ، إِلاَّ أَنْ تَتَجَنَّى ; فَتَجَنَّ مَا بَدَا لَكَ! وَالسَّلاَمُ.

When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

In This Light we find Our Imam Ali (a.s) was Talking about the Decision, Which the Muhajreen and the Ansar made on the basis (according to 'THEM' the Muhajreen and the Ansar) to satisfy Allah, and this does not show that Imam Ali (a.s) Approved of it, or claimed it was righteous, He used this as a Hujja upon Muwiyah since he was appointed by Umar.

_________

Letter 53:

I have no Objection to this brother? What what is your problem? in the light of this No doubt as a whole Muslim Community, We follow the prophet peace be upon him and obey his orders (the Sunnah) but you are very Blind brother you did not read the whole Letter (As Typically) we site the following two Paragraphs from the letter:

Know that the people consist of classes who prosper only with the help of one another, and they are not independent of one another. Among them are the army of Allah, then the secretarial workers of the common people and the chiefs, then the dispensers of justice, then those engaged in law and order, then the payers of head tax (jizyah) and land tax (kharaj) from the protected unbelievers and the common Muslims, then there are the traders and the men of industry and then the lowest class of the needy and the destitute. Allah has fixed the share of every one of them and laid down His precepts about the limits of each in His Book (Qur'an) and the sunnah of His Prophet by way of of a settlement which is preserved with us.

وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الرَّعِيَّةَ طَبَقَاتٌ لاَ يَصْلُحُ بَعْضُهَا إلاَّ بِبَعْض، وَلاَ غِنَى بِبَعْضِهَا عَنْ بَعْض: فَمِنْهَا جُنُودُ اللهِ،مِنْهَا كُتَّابُ الْعَامَّةِ وَالْخَاصَّةِ، وَمِنْهَا قُضَاةُ الْعَدْلِ، وَمِنهَا عُمَّالُ الاْنْصَافِ وَالرِّفْقِ، وَمِنْهَا أَهْلُ الْجِزْيَةِ وَالْخَراجِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ وَمُسْلِمَةِ النَّاسِ، وَمِنْهَا التُّجَّارُ وَأَهْلُ الصِّنَاعَاتِ، وَمِنهَا الطَّبَقَةُ السُّفْلَى مِنْ ذَوِي الْحَاجَةِ وَالْمَسْكَنَةِ، وَكُلٌّ قَدْ سَمَّى اللهُ سَهْمَهُ، وَوَضَعَ عَلَى حَدِّهِ وَفَرِيضَتِهِ

فِي كِتَابِهِ أَوْ سُنَّةِ نَبِيِّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله)عَهْداً مِنْهُ عِنْدَنَا مَحْفُوظاً

.

_______________

Its clear Imam Ali (a.s) is telling Malik al ashtar (r.a) that The Sunnah (The Orders of the prophet) is Preserved with them (Imam Ali (a.s)), and this shows that the orders from Ahlulbayt (a.s) are to be followed brother. In today's World we all follow the orders of the prophet as we claim, but yet we have different methods of prayers, Wudu, Dua's, aspects and jurisprudence, so who should we take from brother? Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman? Or should we be talking from Imam Ali (a.s)? since he preserved the Commandments of the prophet peace be upon him. Brother your Justification are false.

______________

Statement:

So in that verse we are told not to obey "sinners". Could you define "sinners" for me. Ie; who is considered a sinner??

This verse is ver clear brother, Allah is Ordering you to now obey those who sin, Against the prophets Commandments and His Ahlulbayt peace be upon them All. One who Disobeys Allah, we cannot take him as a guide or Obey him. So brother how can a prophet Sin? When Allah has sent him down to Humanity to guide his servants? So This not only proves that prophets Must be Infallible, but Uli al amr must be to. Allah would never tell us to obey those who sin. He clearly said do not obey those who sin.

في ايمان الله و عليكم السلام

The ISLAMIC history in your long reply I seem to have gathered that what you're trying to say is that if I rejected any other usul ad din I'm a kafir but if I reject imamat then I am not a kafir. Could you clarify this for me. Also could you tell me which prophets a.s imam ali is higher than in status, no long reply just names.

YOU SAID

It is quite obvious that if Allah would have ever mentioned the name of Imam ‘Ali a.s. in Qur’an explicitly, those who bore mountains of hatred against him would have attempted to alter the Qur’an.

MY ANSWER

Getting desperate are we?? This is absolutely pathetic and baseless. Allah (swt) promised to preserve the quran. Tell me why aisha r.a did not take out the verses of when her r.a and hafsa r.a were rebuked.

YOU SAID

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

MY ANSWER

.....and what is this?? The sun has many benefits even behind the clouds. We still get light, plants carry out photosynthesis etc etc. How exactly are we benefitting from your imam in seclusion.

Brother lets not waste time we've been here for over two months. Now il give you verses for a few usul's then we will compare them to the ulil amr verse which apparently according to you is supposed to be proving an usul!!!

Tawheed

That is Allah, your Lord!. There is no god but He, the Creator of all things. Then worship Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs [Al-An’am 6:102]

Indeed, We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people and he said: “O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day[Al-A’raf 7: 59]

And I (Allah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me. [Az-Zariyat 51:56]

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him…” [Al-Isra’ 17:23]

And many many many more verses regarding tawhid. They are all clear as day to the fact that Allah (swt) is one, worship him alone etc etc.

Do we need hadith to know what Allah (swt) is talking about here?? NO.

Yawm al qiyamah

Alhamdulillah there is a surah called yawm al qiyamah along with numerous other verses. Alhamdulillah.

Allah swt says: “And who believe in ( which has been sent down to you (pbuh) and in that which we sent down before and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter” [2:4]

Allah swt also says: “Those who perform As-Salat and give Zakat and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter” [surah an-Naml: v3]

DO we need hadith to know Allah (swt) is talking about the day of reckoning?? NO.

Holy books

Verily, We did send down the TORAH [to Musa], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah’s Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the TORAH after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah'S BOOK, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers." (5:44)

"And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Eesaa, son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the TORAH that had come before him. And We gave him the Injeel, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tauraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for the Allah-fearing." (5:46)

"[it is] He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad «peace be upon him») with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the TORAH and the INJEEL. Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind, And He sent down the Furqaan (The Criterion) [of judgment between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]." (3:3-4)

36:1

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Sahih International

Ya, Seen.

36:2

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Sahih International

By the wise QURAN.

36:3

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Sahih International

Indeed you, [O Muhammad], are from among the messengers,

36:4

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Sahih International

On a straight path.

36:5

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Sahih International

[This is] a revelation of the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,

Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of PSALMS) (ZABOOR).7

Do we need to run to hadith or tafsir to understand what Allah (swt) is talking about.

Etc etc.

Now let's take a look at verse 4:59 and see if we feel the same vibe.

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Ask yourself honestly!! Do you feel the same powerful message here as you do for the other verses. This verse is not precise. Sorry. Authority 1 and 2 clearly described. Authority 3????

Also just imagine for a split second I'm a Christian looking into islam.

I start reading into quran and trying to understand islam. I read all other usul's and as Allah (swt) says in surah 3:7they are as clear as day and precise. So I read them verses regarding the usul's and gather what Allah (swt) wants me to believe without going to hadith or tafsir. Tawhid messengers a.s, (although all names are not present we are told messenger(s) books etc etc.

Now I've come across the fact that we need to believe in ims after prophet (pbuh) so since it's an usul I'm expecting to be told that I should believe in imams after prophet (pbuh). Lost and confused I confront a shia to tell me where such a verse exists and he directs me to verse 4:59. Well I'm sorry where does it precisely say imams?? And why when we differ shouldn't we refer to the ulil amr since he's Allah (swt) representative on earth??

I am then directed to verse 5:55. I start reading and the first flaw I come across is the word wali??

Second flaw is where am I told that there will be "imams"

Don't forget we shouldn't need hadith and tafsir TO KNOW WHAT Allah (swt) IS TALKING ABOUT. Look at the other verses did I use hadith and tafsir to prove that Allah (swt) was talking about tawhid or yawm al qiyamah or books etc etc.

Please understand we shouldn't need hadith or tafsir to prove WHAT Allah (swt) is talking about in a precise verse.

Letter 6.

Stop being biased and get rid off those words in the brackets then read it again.

Letter 58

YOU SAID

I have no Objection to this brother? What what is your problem? in the light of this No doubt as a whole Muslim Community, We follow the prophet peace be upon him and obey his orders (the Sunnah) but you are very Blind brother you did not read the whole Letter (As Typically) we site the following two Paragraphs from the letter:

MY ANSWER

Thank you and il take it as a compliment being called "blind" from somebody who can't tell the difference between 53 and 58. Re read my previous post I asked for letter 58 not 53

Tell me. Is a sinner somebody who sins without repentance or somebody who sins with repentance.

Also if you read surah luqman:

14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.

15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience. Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.

If you are not to obey parents against anything in islam then common sense tells us that we must obey them in any other aspect. Thus this proves obedience can be conditional in islam.

Also to help me further I ask you to show me a verse in the quran where we are condemned if we disobey ulil amr. We have verses of condemnation for Allah (swt) and prophet (pbuh) then why not ulil amr since according to you he deserves the same obedience as the prophet (pbuh). It would only be fair that a verse of condemnation was also sent condemning us if we disobey ulil amr

Assalaamo-Alaikum dear brothers and sisters. I asked a question to brother Just the truth, about Islam and Eemaan. What are the two and what is the difference between them??? Muslim and Momin, who are the two and what is the difference between them??? Who is Muslim and who is a Momin??? But you all know by now, who brother Just the truth is and what he actually stands for. You can't get anything out of him.

It is obvious that Islam and Eemaan are two completely different things. Islam means "to submit" and Eemaan means "to believe". Islam is the first stage and Eemaan is the second stage. It would be obvious that, Eemaan is a higher stage then Islam. If you submit to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, that would mean you are and have become a Muslim, since you have just accepted Islam. How would one be a Muslim?

You would obviously have to say and give the two testimonies and that would be; 1, I bear witness that there is nobody worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one and has no associate. 2, I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is Allah's messenger and is Allah's last and final spokesman. Now a serious question remains that, how does one become a Momin??? There has to be a way for you to become a Momin.

What is Eemaan??? who is a Momin??? how do you become a Momin??? Do we need a testimony for this??? Well you need two testimonies to become a Muslim, so there has to be a testimony, for you to become a Momin. You've submitted to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and you have just become a Muslim. If we only go by the first testimony and submit to Allah but we leave the second testimony and disregard the Messenger (pbuh), would we still become a Muslim??? Have we accepted Islam, in such a case??? would we still be recognized as Muslims, by doing so???

Take a look at the following verse and examine it. This clearly tells you that, we have, not one, but two things. Islam and Eemaan. Take a look.

49_14.png

The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

This verse clearly tells you that, Islam is not enough and there is something else apart from it, which is connected to Islam and is the next stage. Every Momin is undoubtedly a Muslim but every Muslim is not a Momin, as you can see that, this verse clearly tells you.

To be continued!

AMEEN stop trying to derail the thread and talk about verse 4:59 please. Thankyou. Bring a translation and tafseer to prove your stance on fee shayin. Edited by Just the truth

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Also ISLAMIC history you talk about "sense" and "logic" yet when it comes to your turn to use "sense" and "logic" you totally switch off. Mashallah.

I can't believe how you can say that when Allah (swt) intends to do something he has already done it. Mashallah. Beautiful thinking.

Edited by Just the truth

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

Statement:
Getting desperate are we?? This is absolutely pathetic and baseless. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì promised to preserve the quran. Tell me why aisha r.a did not take out the verses of when her r.a and hafsa r.a were rebuked.
 
No one is getting desperate brother, you insulting Behavior shows your immoral accusations, you have taken this from the Previous Analysis and you quoted it out of the Analyses I made brother. Second of all don't ignorantly and claim that I claimed the Quran would be in the state of Tahreef. You need to stop lying claiming that I make such useless statements brother, When clearly I did not. If so I did can you please Quote where I said such Atrocity of the Quran? If not brother need to lie upon others. And What do you mean With Aisha an Hafsa? Which statement are you replying to? The Tahreef verses in Bukhari My Aisha? or which one? please Clarify your self Dear brother and use your logic when your in a proper debate, but as we see you have turned it into a baseless argument.
 
 
 
Statement:
..and what is this?? The sun has many benefits even behind the clouds. We still get light, plants carry out photosynthesis etc etc. How exactly are we benefitting from your imam in seclusion.
 
You must Ignorantly blind brother, do you read? If you read and use your logic, the Audience Will know your Acting to ignore our statements And Analysis So here is where you took it from, and look at your Insulting Sarcasm above comparing to what we are proving:

 


 On the commentary of the verse 4:59 of Qur’an in which Allah orders us to obey Ulul-Amr, al-Khazzaz in his book, Kifayatul Athar, gives a tradition on the authority of the well-known companion of the Prophet (S), Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari  (ra):
 
 
When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (S): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"
 
The Prophet (S) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me. The first of them is ‘Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husain; then ‘Ali son of al-Husain; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali who has been mentioned 'al-Baqir' in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja'far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja'far; then ‘Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali; then ‘Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of ‘Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith."
 
Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).
 
Now that we know who "those vested with authority”are, it is evident that the question of obeying tyrant and unjust rulers does not rise at all. Muslims are not required by the above verse to obey rulers who may be unjust, tyrannical, ignorant, selfish and sunk in debauchery. They are, in fact, ordered to obey the specified Twelve Imams, all of whom were sinless and free from evil thoughts and deeds. Obeying them has no risks whatsoever. Nay, it protects from all risks; because they will never give an order against the order of Allah and will treat all human beings with love, justice, and equity.

   
 
 
Statement:
Brother lets not waste time we've been here for over two months. Now il give you verses for a few usul's then we will compare them to the ulil amr verse which apparently according to you is supposed to be proving an usul!!!

 
 
​As I said Earlier


"It is no doubt that you have ignored almost all of my Questions, Resources, facts, And the sunni works of your own Sect that I have put forward. At the moment your only Hujja you claim upon me is the illogical consensus of our sect in the principles of Islam. So far you have not answered my questions on the subject of Caliphs, Shura, Umar and Abu bakrs Atrocity and the fasle accusations and fabricated facts you have put forward. Nevertheless this does not mean anything to me, it is what you make of the truth and not I. Its very strange how a person from his own sect would ignore most of the Authentic traditions from his own books such as the six sahihs and the books of the same authors who have wrote the six sahih. Do you now acknowledge them as your high ranked scholars? Or is it you belief that you take into priority without having to trace their origin? The infancy of these beliefs, which you hold on to without realization of the origin of what has determined it is in itself an act of ignorance. Now dear brother to you the foundations of Islam differs from what we believe, and out foundations differ from what you believe. There is no use of you criticizing what you have no faith in, nor does it Justify your point of view, and nor have you made a conclusion which we both agree on so you can made a reasonable criticism to justify your accusation that has no bases. Knowing the foundations of Islam is one thing, and having faith in them is another. Sadly, you without even justifying verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 you resort to claiming that you have, by putting it with the “only” optional choice for me to choose, when in the reality of this corrupted dialogue you have not justified your points about these two verses by any means, as I have given and asked you for evidence of such statements, you simply sidestep by analogy and analysis. You then make a false claim that Ayatollah al Tabtaba’i is contradicting him self, and how can you claim such a falsehood on the respected scholar, when he knows more than you, beyond your ignorance, as you have ignored half of the tafsir, you refuse to read the rest of it. Taking such out of context will not prove anything of your ideology (That Contradicts the Sunnah). Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever



in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t] "
 
 
Statement:
Do we need to run to hadith or tafsir to understand what Allah is talking about. Now let's take a look at verse 4:59 and see if we feel the same vibe. Ask yourself honestly!! Do you feel the same powerful message here as you do for the other verses. This verse is not precise. Sorry. Authority 1 and 2 clearly described. Authority 3???? Also just imagine for a split second I'm a Christian looking into islam.  I start reading into quran and trying to understand islam. I read all other usul's and as Allah ì says in surah 3:7they are as clear as day and precise. So I read them verses regarding the usul's and gather what Allah wants me to believe without going to hadith or tafsir. Tawhid messengers a.s, (although all names are not present we are told messenger(s) books etc etc.Now I've come across the fact that we need to believe in ims after prophet (s) so since it's an usul I'm expecting to be told that I should believe in imams after prophet (s). Lost and confused I confront a shia to tell me where such a verse exists and he directs me to verse 4:59. Well I'm sorry where does it precisely say imams?? And why when we differ shouldn't we refer to the ulil amr since he's Allah  representative on earth?? I am then directed to verse 5:55. I start reading and the first flaw I come across is the word wali?? Second flaw is where am I told that there will be "imams" Don't forget we shouldn't need hadith and tafsir TO KNOW WHAT AllahIS TALKING ABOUT. Look at the other verses did I use hadith and tafsir to prove that Allah  was talking about tawhid or yawm al qiyamah or books etc etc.  Please understand we shouldn't need hadith or tafsir to prove WHAT Allah  is talking about in a precise verse.

 

 

 

First of all In the light of the verses you mentioned, Allah, Prophet, Quran (book of Allah, and Jinn so On, you basic Ideology here is that verse 5:55 and 4:59 Are and have no precise in the them, and you claim. Your Falsehood brother  is that all of what you said has no Proof, Context, Or even a mere logical Justification by a Scholar know to us. What you claim about both verses is not justified by Any means, your Denial is Expected due to your failure and refuting the narrations we have put Forward. Second of all, In all verses, There is always an outside meaning and inner meaning, and no one knows the Inner meaning Expect Allah and the prophets and Ahlulbayt (Peace be upon them all). You Quote one verse after another, but your Rejection to Imamah as made you Fail to Quote any verses on the Concept of Imamah Unfortunately you have not even considered the verse we put Foward Dear brother. If your Saying that not verse Requires Tafsir, you must be At ignorance, No matter how simple the verse is in the Book of Allah, It still has a sea of meanings and Knowledge to take from, for What Allah says is beyond what Human Mouth at the extent of indescribable. Brother Having knowledge of the history of revelation of the verses offers us a clearer understanding of the meaning of each verse. However, this does not mean that without knowing the history of revelation we are unable to go forth and explain the Qur`an. Rather, since the verses of the Qur`an are a source of guidance, clear proofs, and the distinguisher between right and wrong, just as we are told that:     

 

 

 

...هُدىً لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَـيِّـنَاتٍ مِّنَ الْهُدى وَالْفُرْقَانِ

“…(this Qur`an is a) guide to mankind, and also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgement (between right and wrong)…

Suratul Baqarah (2), Verse 185

 

 

And:


 

.....وَأَنْـزَلْنَا إِلَيْكُمْ نُوراً مُّبِيناً

 

“…and We have sent down to you the manifest light (the Noble Qur`an)…” Suratul Nisa (4), Verse 174

 

 

 

thus naturally, this is exactly what has been meant and even without referring to the history of revelation of the verses, we are able to clearly understand their meaning. However, with shifting our attention to the history of revelation of the verses, their meaning will become clearer and even more manifest. At this point, we present an example that proves what we have just stated. It is mentioned in Suratul Tawbah (9) that:

 

 

 

وَعَلى الثَّلاَثَةِ الَّذِينَ خُلِّفُوا حَـتَّى إِذَا ضَاقَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الأَرْضُ بِمَا رَحُبَتْ وَضَاقَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ أَنْفُسُهُمْ وَظَنُّوا أَنْ لاَّ مَلْجَأَ مِنَ اللٌّهِ إِلاَّ إِلَيْهِ ثُمَّ تَابَ عَلَيْهِمْ لِيَتُوبُوا إِنَّ اللٌّهَ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ

 

 

“(He - Allah - turned in mercy also) to the three who were left behind; (they felt guilty) to such a degree that the Earth seemed constrained to them for all its spaciousness, and their souls seemed straitened to them, and they perceived that there is no fleeing from Allah (and no refuge), but to Him. Then He turned to them that they might repent, for Allah is Oft-Returning, the Most Merciful.”

 

-Suratul Tawbah (9), Verse 118

 

 

 

There is no doubt that the meaning of the verse is clear, however a person would definitely have, in regards to the (deeper) meaning of this verse, the desire to know the following things:

 

1. Who are the three people referred to in this verse?

 

2. Why were they left behind?

 

3. How did the Earth become constrained for them?

 

4. How did their chests become straitened in regards to the life of this world and how did their souls face pressure?

 

5. How did they realize that other than Allah (awj), there is no other source of refuge?

 

6. What is the meaning of the ability or opportunity given by Allah (awj) to humans (Tawfiq) in relation to these people?

 

The answers to each of these questions can easily be achieved by referring to the history of revelation of this verse.

 

At this stage, it would not be out of place to remind ourselves of the following point which is that any narration which details the history of revelation of a particular verse of the Qur`an can not automatically be accepted. Rather, in regards to the trustworthiness of a tradition which contains the history of revelation (of a verse), there must be some measurements in place through which the correct and incorrect narrations can be weighed.

 

This is especially true when it comes to the history of revelation of the verses of the Qur`an which relate the stories of the previous prophets and the past generations of people as in this area of review, precaution must not be neglected as many of the narrations which discuss the history of revelation (of these types of instances) have been related from unknown and unfamiliar sources and as we know, we can never (blindly) accept historical narrations from such sources.

 

Unfortunately, many of the commentaries of the Qur`an do not take this point into consideration and therefore, some commentators have gone forth to relate any narration which accounts the history of revelation – even from people who are not trustworthy or reliable!?

 

 

 

_______________

Brother No Doubt Imamat Comes from God and The Nobel Quran Says This. Just as we previously showed in the story of Abraham, peace be upon him, the Qur’an refers to the state of imamate and leadership of Abraham, peace be upon him, to follow the stage of prophethood, Divine mission and passing the difficult tests presented to him. It says:

 

 

 

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

 

 

“And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands which he filled. He said, ‘I will make you an Imam to the nations......” (2:124)
 

 

 

 

The Holy Qur’an and various histories show that he attained this stage after struggling with the idol worshippers of Babel, his migration to Damascus, his building of the Ka’bah and taking his child, Isma’yl, to the place of sacrifice. If prophethood and the Divine mission must be determined by God, imamate and leadership must also be determined by God for it relates to all aspects of the human being and it is to help direct them towards perfection. This is not something that the people may do. The Holy Qur’an says:

 

“I will make You an Imam to the nations.” (2:124)

In another verse it says,

 

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ الْخَيْرَاتِ وَإِقَامَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءَ الزَّكَاةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا لَنَا عَابِدِينَ

 

“And We made them leaders guiding (men) by Our Command and We send them Inspiration “(21:73)

 

 

 

Similar, to this, it can be shown in other verses of the Qur’an that God must select Imam and beyond this, at the time when we read that Abraham asked that his offspring be included, he was told:

 

 

 

“But My promise is not Within the reach of wrong doers.” (2:124)

It says that his prayer will be answered but those who had committed oppression would never reach this high station.

Noting the fact that an oppressor, both in the meaning of the word as well as the logic of Qur’an, has an extensive meaning, including the clear and hidden sins of polytheism and any kind of oppression against other people and noting that only God can know this in a complete and perfect way, because only God is aware of what goes on inside people, it is clear that only God can select the person for this stage.

   

 

Let us take a look at the verses Preaching Mention:



 

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ ۖ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

 

“O, Prophet, Proclaim the (Message) which has been sent to thee from your Lord. If you do not, you would not have fulfilled and proclaimed His Mission. And God will defend you from men (who corrupt) for God guides not those who reject Faith.” (5:67)
 

 

 

 

The tone of this verse shows that the assignment is a heavy one which has been placed upon the Prophet’s shoulders. He was anxious about the mission which might possibly meet up with opposition from the people.

 

 

Thus the verse tells the Prophet that God commands the endeavors to have Islam be better understood and give him security and that he will be protected.

 

 

This important issue clearly does not relate to monotheism and polytheism in the struggle with the enemies from among the Jews and hypocrites, etc. because at the time of the revealing of this verse, this issue had been completely solved.

 

And, also, the announcing of the normal precepts of Islam did not have these dangers. From the external interpretation of the verse, it can be seen that it was a command which was of the same weight as the Divine mission. That is, if endeavors were not made, the truth of the Divine mission would not have been expressed.

 

Can this command, then, be anything other than the selection of the successor to the Prophet? In particular, since the verse was revealed at the end of life of the Holy Prophet and it relates to the issue of the caliphate, which is the continuation of the issue of prophethood and the Divine mission of the Holy Prophet.

 

 

In addition, there are many Traditions recorded from a large group of the Companions of the holy Prophet including Zayd ibn Arqam, Abu Sa’id Khudri, ibn ‘Abbas, Jabir Abdallah Ansari, Abu Hurayrah, Hudaifah and ibn Ma’sud.

 

 

Some of these Traditions have come to us through eleven ways and a large number of them are from the Sunni scholars, both - these who transmit the Traditions, historians as well as recorders which say that the above verse was about ‘Ali, peace be upon him, and that it was revealed on the day of Ghadir. (For further information, see the books Ahqaq al-Haqq, al-Qadir, al-Marja‘at and Dalail al-Sadaq).

 

 

 

So Brother Why did Allah Send This verse on the Day of Ghadir Khum? can you peas explain? If your saying there is not Significance to Ghadir Khum you are Mistaken and Ignorant.  

 

 

 

Now Dear brother Concerning verse 4:59:
 

“O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Prophet and those charged with authority among you...” (4:59)

 

Here, the command to obey ‘those charged with authority’ directly follows the obedience to God and the Holy Prophet Does it mean ‘those charged with authority’ as leaders and rulers in every age and in every environment? But are Muslims of each age and in each country obliged to follow the commands of the leaders without question (as some of the Sunnis say)? This does not agree with any kind of logic because most of the leaders, in the various ages, were deviated, polluted, affiliated and oppressive. Does this verse say to obey the rulers upon the condition that they are not rulers against the precepts of Islam? This also does not fit with the generalization of the verse. Does it mean that they are only to obey the Companions of the Prophet? This also does not agree with the extensiveness mentioned in the Holy Qur’an to include all ages and times. Thus we can conclude that which is meant by the infallible leaders who exist in every age and in every era, obedience of whom is unconditional and obligatory and his commands, like the commands of God and the Prophet, must be carried out There are many Traditions in Islam in this area and the fact that those charged with authority has been related to ‘Ali or the infallible Imams is further proof of this. (For further information see the Tafsir Nemunah, vol. 3, p.435).

 

We Find with now Doubt Brother This cannot simply mean rulers as you claim. If Allah is telling you to "Obey" a certain Person, then that person must be appointed by Allah Him self, it would be illogical and Irrational to say that he is chosen by the people (Shura) if This is so, then who do we follow? There are many rulers chosen by their own people? So Can this be justified dear brother? Its illogical because it would contradict the Arabic literature of the verses. Also brother the Successor of Jesus (a.s) are not mentioned name by name, but simply as the "Hawareen", so in the time of our prophet Jesus (a.s), Would you deny the "Hawareen"? Simply because They are not mentioned by name? What about the Successor of prophet Solomon (a.s) who Moved the throne? He is not motioned by name, but as "The one who has the knowledge of the Scriptures" So will you deny the Successor of prophet Solomon? And Go with the people? at the time from where would you take your Knowledge from brother? the people? Or The Successor of the prophet Solomon (a.s)? What about the Successor of Prophet Moses (a.s)? Would you go to the people to ask about the book of Allah? or Haron? So dear brother We are your Justified views on this issue?

 

 

And Concerning the verse:

 

 

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

 

 

“Your (real) leaders are (no less than) God, His Apostle and the (fellowship of) believers those who establish regular prayers and regular charity when they bow down humbly (in worship).” (5:55)   

 

 

 

 

The Qur’an relies upon the word innamah which in Arabic refers to exclusiveness: the Wali and leader of the Muslims is exclusive to three people: God, the Holy Prophet and those who have found faith and who pay the zakat at the time of the ruku’. There is no doubt that what is meant by leadership is not the friendship of Muslims with one another because friendship with one another does not need to have the word unconditional added to it. All Muslims are friends with each other even though, at the time of the ruku’, zakat is not paid. Thus wilayat’ here means the spiritual and material leadership, in particular, since it is placed along side the wilayat of God and the wilayat of the Prophet. This point is also clear that the above verse, with the situation in which it appears, refers to a particular person who has paid the zakat while in the state of ruku’ because otherwise it is not necessary that one pay the zakat while in that state; this is a sign, not a description. The totality of this, then, shows that the above verse refers to the meaningful story of ‘Ali, peace be upon him, in particular, since he was in the midst of the ruku’ when a needy person came to the mosque of the Prophet to seek help. No one answered the needy person but in that state, ‘Ali, peace be upon him, with his right hand, indicated his finger with a ring on it. The needy person took the valuable ring. The Prophet saw what was going on with the corner of his eye. After his ritual prayer ended, he raised his head and said, “God! The brother of Moses has asked that you extend his spirit and make things easy for him and cut the difficulty of his tongue, and have Aaron be his helper and assistant...

 

O God! I am Muhammad, the Prophet, and the person you selected, opened my chest and made my work easy and from among my family, have ‘Ali be my helper so that through him, my back will be strong and firm...”

 

The Prayer of the Holy Prophet had not as yet ended when Gabriel appeared and revealed the verse above.

 

It is interesting to note that many of the recorders of the Traditions who are famous Sunnis, and their historians and commentators, say that this verse refers to Hazrat ‘Ali and more than 10 of the Companions of the Holy Prophet.  

 

 

 

Statement:

Stop being biased and get rid off those words in the brackets then read it again.

 

Do not be ignorant my dear brother, anyone with simply English can Understand this letter, Why do you fail to admit?

 

Statement:

Thank you and il take it as a compliment being called "blind" from somebody who can't tell the difference between 53 and 58. Re read my previous post I asked for letter 58 not 53
 

Sorry Was I mistaken? Did you not say 53? In your previous posts you have been over the top and Irrational on letter 53, so now lets take a look at

 

letter 58: Written to the people of various localities deseribing what took place between him and the people of Siffin

 

 

 

The whole thing began thus that we and the Syrians met in an encounter although we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet, and our message in Islam is the same. We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger (Allah bless him and his descendants) nor did they want us to add any such thing. In fact, there was complete unity except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it. We suggested to them to appease the situation by calming the temporary irritation and pacifying the people till matters settled down and stabilized when we would gain strength to put matters right.

 

 

 

وَكَانَ بَدْءُ أَمْرِنَا أَنَّا الْتَقَيْنَا وَالْقَوْمُ مِنْ أَهْلِ الشَّامِ، وَالظَّاهِرُ أَنَّ رَبَّنَا وَاحِدٌ، وَنَبِيَّنَا وَاحِدٌ، وَدَعْوَتَنَا فِي الاْسْلاَمِ وَاحِدَةٌ، لاَ نَسْتَزِيدُهُمْ فِي الاْيمَانِ باللهِ وَالتَّصْدِيقِ بِرَسُولِهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله)، وَلاَ يَسْتَزِيدُونَنَا، الاْمْرُ وَاحِدٌ، إِلاَّ مَا اخْتَلَفْنَا فِيهِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَنَحْنُ مِنْهُ بَرَاءٌ! فَقُلْنَا: تَعَالَوْا نُدَاوِ مَا لاَ يُدْرَكُ الْيَوْمَ بِإِطْفَاءِ النَّائِرَةِ، وَتَسْكِينِ الْعَامَّةِ، حَتَّى يَشْتَدَّ الاْمْرُ وَيَسْتَجْمِعَ، فَنَقْوَى عَلَى وَضْعِ الْحَقِّ مَوَاضِعَهُ.

 

 

They however said that they would settle it by war. Thus, they refused our offer and consequently war spread its wings and came to stay. Its flames rose and became strong. When the war had bitten us as well as them and pierced its talons into us as well as them, they accepted what we had proposed to them.

So, we agreed to what they suggested and hastened to meet their request. In this way, the plea became clear to them and no excuse was left to them. Now, whoever among them adheres to this will be saved by Allah from ruin, and whoever shows obstinacy and insistence (on wrong) is the reverser whose heart has been blinded by Allah and evils will encircle his head.

 

فَقَالُوا: بَلْ نُدَاوِيهِ بِالْمُكَابَرَةِ! فَأَبَوْا حَتَّى جَنَحَتِ الْحَرْبُ وَرَكَدَتْ، وَوَقَدَتْ نِيرَانُهَا وَحَمِشَتْ. فَلَمَّا ضَرَّسَتْنَا وَإِيَّاهُمْ، وَوَضَعَتْ مَخَالِبَهَا فِينَا وَفِيهِمْ، أَجَابُوا عِنْدَ ذلِكَ إِلَى الَّذي دَعَوْنَاهُمْ إِلَيْهِ، فَأَجَبْنَاهُمْ إِلَى مَا دَعَوْا، وَسَارَعْنَاهُمْ إِلَى مَا طَلَبُوا، حَتَّى اسْتَبَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الْحُجَّةُ، وَانْقَطَعَتْ مِنْهُمُ الْمَعْذِرَةُ. فَمَنْ تَمَّ عَلَى ذلِكَ مِنْهُمْ فَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنْقَذَهُ اللهُ مِنَ الْهَلَكَةِ، وَمَنْ لَجَّ وَتَمَادَى فَهُوَ الرَّاكِسُ الَّذِي رَانَ اللهُ عَلَى قَلْبِهِ، وَصَارَتْ دَائِرَةُ السَّوْءِ عَلَى رَأْسِهِ.

 

 

(1) So what is wrong with this? What is your Objection in this letter? Can you please explain?


Statement:
Tell me. Is a sinner somebody who sins without repentance or somebody who sins with repentance.

 

Anyone Who sins, you cannot Obey them in terms of Following them In knowing the Law of Allah and Obeying him. Its Simple. Do you have Difficulty in understanding This brother?


Statement:

If you are not to obey parents against anything in islam then common sense tells us that we must obey them in any other aspect. Thus this proves obedience can be conditional in islam.

 

 

In the verses you mentioned Allah is telling you in the case of Obeying your Parents, and you cannot compare this to the Obedience of Allah, Both are two Different Ranks, and Obedience to Allah is Higher and beyond, and Allah is telling you if they are against Allah, then Son/Daughter has the right to Disobey them, While in verse 4:59, Your Told to obey and full stop, in the verse it does not say if you Differ in Uli al amr, It says if the people Differ amongst them selves they should refer back to Allah and the Messenger, and when ask who will we refer after the prophets Death? So here we find the prophet peace be upon him as put Two Khalfias after him, The book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt (a.s). If you disobey Ahlulbayt, you Disobey the prophet and Allah. 

 


Statement:

Also to help me further I ask you to show me a verse in the quran where we are condemned if we disobey ulil amr. We have verses of condemnation for Allah  and prophet (s) then why not ulil amr since according to you he deserves the same obedience as the prophet (s). It would only be fair that a verse of condemnation was also sent condemning us if we disobey ulil amr

 

Brother, How do we Disobey the prophet in the first place? if the prophet is leaving in his Ummah, And they 'Must' hold on to, so they can never go astray the book of Allah and his Ahlulbayt (a.s) if we disobey both them Don't we disobey the prophet peace be upon him? Do we need a verse for this? Tell me how do we disobey the prophet?


Statement:

Also ISLAMIC history you talk about "sense" and "logic" yet when it comes to your turn to use "sense" and "logic" you totally switch off. Mashallah. I can't believe how you can say that when Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì intends to do something he has already done it. Mashallah. Beautiful thinking. 

 

Its sad to see you Questioning the Intention of Allah. You must be Manipulating your assumptions into Falsehood. When Allah (s.w.t) 'intends' to do something, he will do it. And that is where 'Actions' comes from, can you please tell me Where action comes from dear brother? Does it not come from Intention? When Allah 'Wants' to do something, he will Intend to do it. So tell me are you saying:

(1) When Allah 'Intends' to do something, does that mean he Will not/Cannot do it? (istaghfrallah)
(2) When we Intend to do something, Does that mean No action is made of it?
(3) are you saying Allah cannot Do what he Intends to do? (Na'ozoBillah)

 


statement:
The ISLAMIC history in your long reply I seem to have gathered that what you're trying to say is that if I rejected any other usul ad din I'm a kafir but if I reject imamat then I am not a kafir. Could you clarify this for me. Also could you tell me which prophets a.s imam ali is higher than in status, no long reply just names.

 

(1) I said it very Clearly brother, do you have trouble understanding the Diagram? For us To be a mere Muslim and Submit your self to Allah, you are Required to accept the four Usul, but to become a follower of Ahlulabyt (a.s) and a "Mo'omin"  you must accept The 12 Caliphs and Follow Ahlulabyt.

(2) The Twelve Caliphs are higher then All the prophets Before prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).  

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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The ISLAMIC history in your long reply I seem to have gathered that what you're trying to say is that if I rejected any other usul ad din I'm a kafir but if I reject imamat then I am not a kafir. Could you clarify this for me. Also could you tell me which prophets a.s imam ali is higher than in status, no long reply just names.

YOU SAID

It is quite obvious that if Allah would have ever mentioned the name of Imam ‘Ali a.s. in Qur’an explicitly, those who bore mountains of hatred against him would have attempted to alter the Qur’an.

MY ANSWER

Getting desperate are we?? This is absolutely pathetic and baseless. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì promised to preserve the quran. Tell me why aisha r.a did not take out the verses of when her r.a and hafsa r.a were rebuked.

YOU SAID

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

MY ANSWER

.....and what is this?? The sun has many benefits even behind the clouds. We still get light, plants carry out photosynthesis etc etc. How exactly are we benefitting from your imam in seclusion.

Brother lets not waste time we've been here for over two months. Now il give you verses for a few usul's then we will compare them to the ulil amr verse which apparently according to you is supposed to be proving an usul!!!

Tawheed

That is Allah, your Lord!. There is no god but He, the Creator of all things. Then worship Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs [Al-An’am 6:102]

Indeed, We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people and he said: “O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. Certainly, I fear for you the torment of a Great Day[Al-A’raf 7: 59]

And I (Allah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me. [Az-Zariyat 51:56]

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him…” [Al-Isra’ 17:23]

And many many many more verses regarding tawhid. They are all clear as day to the fact that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is one, worship him alone etc etc.

Do we need hadith to know what Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about here?? NO.

Yawm al qiyamah

Alhamdulillah there is a surah called yawm al qiyamah along with numerous other verses. Alhamdulillah.

Allah swt says: “And who believe in ( which has been sent down to you (pbuh) and in that which we sent down before and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter” [2:4]

Allah swt also says: “Those who perform As-Salat and give Zakat and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter” [surah an-Naml: v3]

DO we need hadith to know Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about the day of reckoning?? NO.

Holy books

Verily, We did send down the TORAH [to Musa], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah’s Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the TORAH after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah'S BOOK, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers." (5:44)

"And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Eesaa, son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the TORAH that had come before him. And We gave him the Injeel, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tauraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for the Allah-fearing." (5:46)

"[it is] He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad «peace be upon him») with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the TORAH and the INJEEL. Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind, And He sent down the Furqaan (The Criterion) [of judgment between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]." (3:3-4)

36:1

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Sahih International

Ya, Seen.

36:2

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Sahih International

By the wise QURAN.

36:3

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Sahih International

Indeed you, [O Muhammad], are from among the messengers,

36:4

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Sahih International

On a straight path.

36:5

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Sahih International

[This is] a revelation of the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,

Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of PSALMS) (ZABOOR).7

Do we need to run to hadith or tafsir to understand what Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about.

Etc etc.

Now let's take a look at verse 4:59 and see if we feel the same vibe.

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Ask yourself honestly!! Do you feel the same powerful message here as you do for the other verses. This verse is not precise. Sorry. Authority 1 and 2 clearly described. Authority 3????

Also just imagine for a split second I'm a Christian looking into islam.

I start reading into quran and trying to understand islam. I read all other usul's and as Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says in surah 3:7they are as clear as day and precise. So I read them verses regarding the usul's and gather what Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wants me to believe without going to hadith or tafsir. Tawhid messengers a.s, (although all names are not present we are told messenger(s) books etc etc.

Now I've come across the fact that we need to believe in ims after prophet (pbuh) so since it's an usul I'm expecting to be told that I should believe in imams after prophet (pbuh). Lost and confused I confront a shia to tell me where such a verse exists and he directs me to verse 4:59. Well I'm sorry where does it precisely say imams?? And why when we differ shouldn't we refer to the ulil amr since he's Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì representative on earth??

I am then directed to verse 5:55. I start reading and the first flaw I come across is the word wali??

Second flaw is where am I told that there will be "imams"

Don't forget we shouldn't need hadith and tafsir TO KNOW WHAT Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì IS TALKING ABOUT. Look at the other verses did I use hadith and tafsir to prove that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì was talking about tawhid or yawm al qiyamah or books etc etc.

Please understand we shouldn't need hadith or tafsir to prove WHAT Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about in a precise verse.

Letter 6.

Stop being biased and get rid off those words in the brackets then read it again.

Letter 58

YOU SAID

I have no Objection to this brother? What what is your problem? in the light of this No doubt as a whole Muslim Community, We follow the prophet peace be upon him and obey his orders (the Sunnah) but you are very Blind brother you did not read the whole Letter (As Typically) we site the following two Paragraphs from the letter:

MY ANSWER

Thank you and il take it as a compliment being called "blind" from somebody who can't tell the difference between 53 and 58. Re read my previous post I asked for letter 58 not 53

Tell me. Is a sinner somebody who sins without repentance or somebody who sins with repentance.

Also if you read surah luqman:

14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.

15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience. Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.

If you are not to obey parents against anything in islam then common sense tells us that we must obey them in any other aspect. Thus this proves obedience can be conditional in islam.

Also to help me further I ask you to show me a verse in the quran where we are condemned if we disobey ulil amr. We have verses of condemnation for Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and prophet (pbuh) then why not ulil amr since according to you he deserves the same obedience as the prophet (pbuh). It would only be fair that a verse of condemnation was also sent condemning us if we disobey ulil amr

AMEEN stop trying to derail the thread and talk about verse 4:59 please. Thankyou. Bring a translation and tafseer to prove your stance on fee shayin.

Once again brother Just the truth, is that it??? Is that all you've got??? Is this all you are capable??? Why don't you engage in discussion??? What are you afraid off??? Give me a better response, rather than a few words, as an excuse to hide behind.

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Once again brother Just the truth, is that it??? Is that all you've got??? Is this all you are capable??? Why don't you engage in discussion??? What are you afraid off??? Give me a better response, rather than a few words, as an excuse to hide behind.

 

he still has not given us the School of thought he is from, so the Discussion at hand is baseless. 

 

 

AMEEN stop trying to derail the thread and talk about verse 4:59 please. Thankyou. Bring a translation and tafseer to prove your stance on fee shayin. 

 

 

Dear just the truth, your Questioning the Arabic Literature of the verse? it makes not difference, in whatever your trying to point out "fee shayin". Make a proper reply.

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Dear brothers and sisters, according to Ahle Tashee, Allah has sent 124,000 Messengers for the guidance of manking. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent as a guide for mankind, right? Now Allah is so concerned about mankind that, he sends a guide but wouldn't care about the Muslim Ummah, to have a guide? There is no way that Allah would leave the Muslim Ummah, without a guide, without the direct appointment of a guide. There is no way that Allah would leave Quran and Sunnah in less capable hands or with those who have far less knowledge and information, about Quran and Sunnah.

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Dear brother Just the truth, a humble request, if you could kindly put forward, which school of thought you follow, so material relating to that school of thought, can and will definately be put forward to you, in the face of references, as evidence and proof to back our claims.This way the discussion and debate, will be more exciting and fruitful. Please do not hesitate or be afraid.

Dear brothers and sisters, there is no way that, the Prophet (pbuh) would die, pass away, leave this world, without naming and nominating his successor. Without pointing out towards a new form of leadership. Without introducing a guide for the Ummah. Without leaving the Quran and Sunnah, in safe, secure, reliable and capable hands. It's just not possible and this is what Ahle Tashee is all about.

Dear brothers and sisters, i say lets settle on something, then we can discuss and debate on that and from that. What ever brother Just the truth desires. I say it is his call and his call only and this is what i mean,

Did Allah appoint someone or some leadership to govern after Muhammad (pbuh) and the Prophet (pbuh) introduced that someone or that leadership???

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Dear brothers and sisters, according to Ahle Tashee, Allah has sent 124,000 Messengers for the guidance of manking. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent as a guide for mankind, right? Now Allah is so concerned about mankind that, he sends a guide but wouldn't care about the Muslim Ummah, to have a guide? There is no way that Allah would leave the Muslim Ummah, without a guide, without the direct appointment of a guide. There is no way that Allah would leave Quran and Sunnah in less capable hands or with those who have far less knowledge and information, about Quran and Sunnah.

 

aSalaam Aleykum

 

Isn't the Quran our guide? Isn't the Prophet (saw) and his Sunnah our guide?

 

If you claim there must be a divinely appointed figure after Prophet (saw) to guide people then where is your guide today?

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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Since our brother 'Just the Truth' is bringing our Usul and trying to Justify that according to us his Kafir (which we have rejected), let us see what the Schools of thought of Ahlul-Sunnah Think about us, According to The school of Thought of Abu Hanafi, if you Reject Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman, you are a Kafir and your not allowed to pray behind us? So tell me brother JustheTruth, How is this Obligatory to believe in the khalifas Abu bakr, Umar? Is there a verse?

We read in the book "Sawa'iq, Al Mohreqa, by Ibn Hijir, page 359,



المنقول عن العلماء فمذهب أبي حنيفة رضي الله عنه أن من أنكر خلافة الصديق أو عمر فهو كافر على خلاف حكاه بعضهم وقال الصحيح أنه كافر والمسالة مذكورة في كتبهم في الغاية للسروجي والفتاوى الظهيرية والأصل لمحمد بن الحسن وفي الفتاوى البديعية فإنه قسم الرافضة إلى كفار وغيرهم وذكر الخلاف في بعض طوائفهم وفيمن أنكر إمامة أبي بكر وزعم ان الصحيح أنه يكفر و في المحيط أن محمدا لا يجوز الصلاة خلف الرافضة ثم قال لأنهم أنكروا خلافة ابي بكر وقد اجتمعت الصحابة على خلافته و في الخلاصة من كتبهم أن من أنكر خلافة الصديق فهو كافر و في تتمة الفتاوى والرافضي المتغالي الذي ينكر خلافة أبي بكر يعني لا تجوز الصلاة خلفه ).

 

 

Narrated from the Uluma, For Mathhab Abi Hanifa, that whom ever Disbelieves in the Khalifa of the Truth (meaning abu bakr) or Umar, For he is Kafir on Khilaf (Dispute), for some of them said, and said 'Sahih' for he is Kafir and the issue is present in their books 'Al Ghayat L'Lsroje' and 'Alfatawi alThahera' and 'Alasel lahamad bn alhasan' and in 'Fatawi albde'a'e' for encountered the section of 'Rafida' to Kufar and others, and mentioned some of the differs among them and whom disbelieves the Imamah of Abi Bakr and claimed that its 'Sahih' that he 'Disbelieves' and in the 'Muhe'eet' that 'Muhamada', Its not allowed to pray behind a 'Rafidi', then he said because they disbelieve in the Khilafa of Abi bakr......and so on.
 

 

post-83202-0-97405300-1382286336_thumb.jpost-83202-0-95780700-1382286324_thumb.jpost-83202-0-85813900-1382286331_thumb.j

 

 

 

 

 

 

So brother How is it Mandatory to believe them? Can you please explain?





 


aSalaam Aleykum

 

Isn't the Quran our guide? Isn't the Prophet (saw) and his Sunnah our guide?

 

If you claim there must be a divinely appointed figure after Prophet (saw) to guide people then where is your guide today?

 

 

Yes not Doubt he is the Guide, but the prophet Peace be upon him said: I have left in You (Ummah) Two things, Hold on to them and you will Never go Astray, The book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt..." 

So you have to Obey the Quran and the Ahlulbayt of the prophet (pbuh)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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aSalaam Aleykum

Isn't the Quran our guide? Isn't the Prophet (saw) and his Sunnah our guide?

If you claim there must be a divinely appointed figure after Prophet (saw) to guide people then where is your guide today?

Wa'alaikum Assalaam dear brother. Thanks for the questions and unlike brother Just the truth, i'm going to, directly and straightly answer them.

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Now brother you said isn't the Quran our guide??? Isn't the Prophet (pbuh) and his Sunnah our guide???

Let me give you an example before i answer your questions. Lets take a subject, for example mathematics. You have a text book and then you have a teacher. The teacher gives you your first lesson from the book. After school anything you aren't sure of, anything you get confused about, you have extra classes, held by tutors.

The teachers job is to give you a thorough explanation from what ever it is, that is being covered from the text book, in the form of a lesson. The tutors job is to give you extra clarification, about what the teacher has covered, from the text book and about the teachers lesson.

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Dear brother Just the Truth, in the Sh'afa'i School of thought, Imam Al Sha'afa'i Describes the Shia as heretics and people of Falsehood:

 

 

We read in "Minhaj Al Sunnah al Nabawiya" - Ibn Taymiyah (page 29)

 

 

وقال الإمام الشافعي- رحمه الله-:"لم أر أحدا أشهد بالزور من الرافضة". 

 

 

Imam Ash-Shafi'i: On one occasion Imam Shafi'ee said concerning the Shia, "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Raafidi*

 

 

 

 

 

post-83202-0-29493500-1382295796_thumb.jpost-83202-0-70599800-1382295791_thumb.j

 

 

 

 

So my dear brother if we are considered as hypocrites in the Sha'afa'i School of thought, then we are definitely out of the Islam (according to the Sunnah)  does this sound logical to you?!

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Dear brother Just the Truth, in the Sh'afa'i School of thought, Imam Al Sha'afa'i Describes the Shia as heretics and people of Falsehood:

 

 

We read in "Minhaj Al Sunnah al Nabawiya" - Ibn Taymiyah (page 29)

 

 

وقال الإمام الشافعي- رحمه الله-:"لم أر أحدا أشهد بالزور من الرافضة". 

 

 

Imam Ash-Shafi'i: On one occasion Imam Shafi'ee said concerning the Shia, "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Raafidi*

 

 

 

 

 

attachicon.gifproof8.JPGattachicon.gifproof7.JPG

 

 

 

 

So my dear brother if we are considered as hypocrites in the Sha'afa'i School of thought, then we are definitely out of the Islam (according to the Sunnah)  does this sound logical to you?!

 

Shia say the same thing, even worse than this, about the Sunnis. 

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Shia say the same thing, even worse than this, about the Sunnis. 

 

 

Please Don't make a false Statement, Can you please Quote some of "The Bad things We Say" Dear brother?

 

please provide Hard Evidence? No lies please.  

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Shia say the same thing, even worse than this, about the Sunnis.

Really??? Would you mind putting a reference forward, as evidence and proof, to back your claim, just as brother Islam History has done???

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear bros Just the Truth,

1.  Read the difference of meaning in Emaan and Muslim as explained by Bro Ameen in post no 753 and your response was like stop derailing the threat in post 754. I think you just ignored the exact relationship between the two verses which Bro Ameen has tried to point out. Can you please give your version of understanding on this issue?

2.  Bro Ameen has quoted the verse 49:14 in context of your question regarding how one does not gets out of the folds of Islam, If someone rejects Imamaat as Usol e Din? And exactly the same way Surat Al Hujraat verse 14 talks about the difference of momin and muslim. So you can be a muslim but to become a momin you have to accept the wilayah of Imam Ali  (as) and Imamaat of all other 11 Imam  (as). But if you don't then you can at best can only be termed as muslim, So a muslim can be a momin or just simple muslim or even can be a munfiq as whole surah is there addressing the same creed of muslims termed as munafiqeen. 

3.  Now, considering your point of view, regarding the second part, which says if you differ on anything (according to you) refer back to Allah SWT and Prophet  (pbuh). So brother how can we refer back, we do not have the capability to talk and listen directly with/from Allah SWT and nor we have Prophet  (pbuh) among us in Human form, and to our worse equation we are differing with each other on translation and understanding of a word of Quran, so we are left with what sunnah as per your understanding. If you differ on this please let us know.

4.  Foregoing the para 3, if only thing we are left is sunnah (not shia version as we have Ahle Bait), lets seek the answer than from sunnah. And what Bro Islam History has provided you are so many hadiaaths on the same verse throughout this whole 30 pages and so that it really took a lot of time to read all of them. But still you have not refuted anyone of the hadiaath.

5.  Well your argument is based on Quran verse 4 : 59, but the same verse over which, you and bro Islam History and Bro Ameen are differing is saying if you differ in anything (according to your accepted version of translation) please refer it back to Allah SWT and Prophet  (pbuh). Bro Just the Truth, once Bro Islam History refer back to Prophet  (pbuh) as per para 3, you come up with an excuse please bring a Quran verse, and once Bro Ameen refers you verse 49 : 14, you yet again finds another excuse please do not derail the threat.... 

6. Seriously bro what is your logic i have failed to understand. Kindly if you can explain how to refer back to Allah SWT and Prophet  (pbuh) in a case where the difference is about the understanding of a verse of Holy Quran. And if your answer is sunnah of Prophet  (pbuh) as explained earlier then kindly first refute all the hadiaaths posted by Bro Islam History and if Quran is the source than can you please explain the meaning of words Alif Lam Meem, And all other questions raised by Bro Islam History and Bro Ameen on the issue in hand from Quraan. Thanks in advance.

7. Anyways you brought up a healthy discussion and because of the same very discussion i have read / received (courtesy Bro Islam History), so many hadiaaths from Ahle Sunnah confirming our stance on the verse. JazakAllah all of you for keeping this threat alive for over two months and so.

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