Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

[Ameen 510]

Everybody has their own belief and faith. Also one has the right to their thought, opinion and point of view. Imaamath is a principal of faith and to reject it, one falls out of the fold of Islam. Why do shias not call Sunnis Kafir???? It's plain and simple but to difficult for you to understand. And here is the answer. Shias do not accuse and abuse. We believe in brotherhood and collective interest. We also believe in unity. You being a Sunni, are you a Muslim or a kafir? My first statement tells you that. Now why I don't call you a kafir, my second statement should tell you that.

[Just the truth 117]

Everybody has their own belief and faith. Also one has the right to their thought, opinion and point of view. Imaamath is a principal of faith and to reject it, one falls out of the fold of Islam. Why do shias not call Sunnis Kafir???? It's plain and simple but to difficult for you to understand. And here is the answer. Shias do not accuse and abuse. We believe in brotherhood and collective interest. We also believe in unity. You being a Sunni, are you a Muslim or a kafir? My first statement tells you that. Now why I don't call you a kafir, my second statement should tell you that.

Thank you AMEEN for your honesty. I AM A KAFIR. AMEEN I swear on my sons life I am not angry with you for calling me a kafir I actually respect you for your honesty.

Now can you bring me translation of verse 4:59 along with its tafsir to prove your stance on fee shayin.

Also tell me where sunnis have said it says "obey" in wa ulil amre minkum.

Thank you.

Again I swear on my sons life I am not angry with you for calling me a kafir. I respect you for your honesty.

JustTheTruth Please stop giving me Excuses and tell what School of thought you follow thank you. Which Scholar do you Recognize? Or do you reject the four schools of thought in your sect?

You're doing taqqiyah AMEEN is an honest man while you are in a state of taqiyyah. How am I supposed to have a dialogue with someone who is in a state of taqiyyah.

[Ameen 510]

My dear brother just the truth, first of all did i call you a Kafir???? Have i called anybody a Kafir???? Let me explain, if you ask me what the definition of a Kafir is, i have given it to you and i will give it to you again, according to my thought, opinion and point of view. Everbody differs in thought opinion and point of view. Even people belonging to the same school of thought or sect differ in opinion. Members of the same household

differ in opinion. Offsprings of the same man differ in opinion. Sunnis of the same school of thought and sect differ in opinion for example, some consider Shias as Kafir or out of the fold of Islam, while others don't.

Brother Islam history isn't in the state of anything. He has a right to his opinion and to express that opinion and that is exactly what he is doing.

[TheIslamHistory 7]

Thank you AMEEN for your honesty. I AM A KAFIR. AMEEN I swear on my sons life I am not angry with you for calling me a kafir I actually respect you for your honesty.

Now can you bring me translation of verse 4:59 along with its tafsir to prove your stance on fee shayin.

Also tell me where sunnis have said it says "obey" in wa ulil amre minkum.

Thank you.

Again I swear on my sons life I am not angry with you for calling me a kafir. I respect you for your honesty.

You're doing taqqiyah AMEEN is an honest man while you are in a state of taqiyyah. How am I supposed to have a dialogue with someone who is in a state of taqiyyah.

this is your reply to my Well Constructed answer?

brother Where not doing Taqiyah. Stop Offending people. your not even Replying to the Questions. Absolutely Pathetic. and no One is calling you Kafir. Amen Did not make such a statement. What are you on about? Brother if you cannot Answer a Question your making it worse by Replying with Silly Insults.

 

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheIslamHistory

[Ameen 510]

Brother just the truth, i have asked you to translate and give me your meaning of verse 4:59 and we shall discuss it from there step by step, rather than getting all muddled up. I have given you my translation and meaning and here it is again.

[TheIslamHistory 7]

Brother just the truth, i have asked you to translate and give me your meaning of verse 4:59 and we shall discuss it from there step by step, rather than getting all muddled up. I have given you my translation and meaning and here it is again.

 

 

Well at any case, He Will Give the same Excuses that is according to him and not our or his Scholars.

[Ameen 510]

Well at any case, He Will Give the same Excuses that is according to him and not our or his Scholars.

The discussion/debate would definately become more exciting and healthy, if he gave a positive response to our posts.

[Ameen 510]

Verse 4:59, "Atee ullaha wa atee ur rasool wa ulul amre minkum, fa in tanazathum fee shay inn fa rud duho illallah heh wa rasoole hee". I will leave it here, since this is where the disagreement lies. The end bit you're familiar with. first the translation (outside brackets) and then the meaning (inside brackets).

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and (obey those) worthy of authority from among you, and if you fall into disagreement (amongst yourselves) in anything (with in this), then just return (the matter of disagreement) back towards Allah and his Messenger".

Edited October 17, 2013 by Ameen

[StrugglingForTheLight 1,630]

Ameen Ulul means more then simply Worthy. This authority can't ever be totally hidden no matter how many clouds and how intense the rain and thundery night we are going through. If all we have the moon with blurry image of Ali, we still have are able to somewhat see. Blindness are metaphors, but no one is ever totally blind.

 

Just the Truth. Ask yourself why you believe in Messengers? Ask yourself until you are true to yourself and truly know your Messenger. 

 

Being true to yourself is a very tall order sometimes and sometimes very simple order. Lying has it places, deception has it's places.

 

Don't ask to see fault. And be charitable to people's way of expressing themselves.

 

Just say maybe even those very people don't realize the significance of their advice and words, it's God talking to you. 

[Ameen 510]

The disagreement we have is in this part of the verse "Wa ulu amre minkum". According to me the meaning of "ulul amre" is "worthy of authority". The word "ulul" means "worthy" and the word "amre" means "authority". Both words put together mean "worthy of authority".

[StrugglingForTheLight 1,630]

Words have plethora of meanings. Pizza has a whole different meaning to a person it once tasted like evil and wasn't able to enjoy it (like me). Seeing a square pizza he might ask himself 'wow what is this' only to brought back to earth with a simply reply from a loving sister in a joyous loving manner "it's a square pizza".  Returning to suratal Ikhlaas is a tough task to a person in Abu lulu land.

 

You tried your best. It says refer it to God and his Messenger. Perhaps we have to learn how to refer things to God and his Messenger. Perhaps Suratal Nass has such a deep meaning. What are "Nass". Noon letter can resul person in coming to abululu land when a person attempts to hear it. Still it seems the Du'a to destroy the thick veil of Seher and Jibt and Taghut and the huge trial we are in with the sword of God according to what is said to defeat Seher by Imam Mahdi is one of the hard matters we must learn if we want to really obey Ulil-Amr in this day and age.  Still this Du'a against Seher is like a very complex explanation to untying the thick wraps and veils and clothes upon clothes we are in to hide the naked truth.

 

"God's hand is above their hands". What does this mean? Perhaps this is a more useful discussion, and we should start from where we agree.

Still, this maybe a trial of hadiths. Words of Ahlebayt maybe difficult to understand...but we have to learn to refer them to God and his Messenger. What is "reason". It's simply "the purpose of why you must do something in your current state of knowledge and ignorance". That's all it is.

Edited October 17, 2013 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Ameen 510]

one must keep this in mind that we are not talking about the language of people or letters, words and sentences concerning people because if we didn't then the example of pizza would make sense. also despite the pizza tasting good or bad and what ever effect it may have on the consumer, it will still remain a pizza and certainly wont change into anything else.

[StrugglingForTheLight 1,630]

The same is true of Ulil Amr and Nass. They are JUST humans like ourselves. Let's not make them into Gods before we set an impossible task of following their example.

 certainly wont change into anything else.

 

It can if you are insane (like me). Never say never in never land.

Edited October 17, 2013 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Just the truth 117]

Everybody has their own belief and faith. Also one has the right to their thought, opinion and point of view. Imaamath is a principal of faith and to reject it, one falls out of the fold of Islam. Why do shias not call Sunnis Kafir???? It's plain and simple but to difficult for you to understand. And here is the answer. Shias do not accuse and abuse. We believe in brotherhood and collective interest. We also believe in unity. You being a Sunni, are you a Muslim or a kafir? My first statement tells you that. Now why I don't call you a kafir, my second statement should tell you that.

AMEEN stop switching your stance and re read your own reply above.

You said:

Imaamath is a principal of faith and to reject it, one falls out of the fold of Islam.

You also said

You being a Sunni, are you a Muslim or a kafir? My first statement tells you that. Now why I don't call you a kafir, my second statement should tell you that.

Your first statement that rejecting Imamate takes you outside the fold of islam

Second statement you don't call me kafir because you believe in brotherhood and don't believe in cursing and insulting

Stop switching your stance.

Verse 4:59, "Atee ullaha wa atee ur rasool wa ulul amre minkum, fa in tanazathum fee shay inn fa rud duho illallah heh wa rasoole hee". I will leave it here, since this is where the disagreement lies. The end bit you're familiar with. first the translation (outside brackets) and then the meaning (inside brackets).

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and (obey those) worthy of authority from among you, and if you fall into disagreement (amongst yourselves) in anything (with in this), then just return (the matter of disagreement) back towards Allah and his Messenger".

AMEEN I'm not the slightest bit interested in your home made translation. Bring me a translation with tafseer for verse 4:59.

Well at any case, He Will Give the same Excuses that is according to him and not our or his Scholars.

ISLAMIC history I've used quran which is the main source to prove to you that verse 4:59 is not talking about any usul. If you still reject my answer then I believe we will never reach a conclusion and it's better that me and you end our discussion and you leave this thread to me and AMEEN. Also since you don't know that rejecting an usul makes you are KAAFIR then I'm Better of talking to a brick wall!!

Assalamu alaykum

Edited October 17, 2013 by Just the truth

[Ameen 510]

The same is true of Ulil Amr and Nass. They are JUST humans like ourselves. Let's not make them into Gods before we set an impossible task of following their example.

It can if you are insane (like me). Never say never in never land.

Let me just finish off what i need to say, then i will comment on your points. If a square pizza is put infront then, you will say what??? A square pizza??? Because pizzas are suppose to be round and this is square. The shape has changed, which has brought alarm but the origin is the same. You will still call it a pizza and just because the shape is changed, you wont call it anything else.

The same isn't true about Ulul Amre and Nass. The verses are Allah's words and nobody is turning anybody into Gods. It's just your misunderstanding and by the way others do exist apart from Allah and Nass in many ways, creation wise and authority wise. Allah isn't the only authority and Nass isn't the only creation.

Brother just the truth, i'm certainly not like you. I stick to what i say and show me where i said that you are a Kafir or i consider you as a Kafir??? Give me the exact words. I don't want you to put your meaning in my words. The definition of a Kafir would also be rejecting any principal of faith. Now what are you and how you exactly believe in Islam is down to you. That is between you and your Allah but yes, i agree with you that, rejecting a principal of faith and belief, would definately throw you out of the fold of Islam.

It doesn't bother me what you are interested in, home made or foreign made or what ever. I've put my understanding and explanation forward to you and it is open for debate. Now it's about time you brought at least something, rather than nothing what so ever.

Like i've said before that if someone doesn't believe in Allah, Quran and the Messenger (pbuh), how are you going to discuss and debate with them??? How are you going to try and convince them??? What method are you going to use??? Are you going to put references, from Quran and Sunnah forward??? The person doesn't believe in Quran and Sunnah to begin with. It's obvious that you will use sense and logic, reality and facts and use nature as your base.

Brother just the truth, leave bring me this and get me that out of this. Start to discuss and debate at basic level.

[Aliyulakbar 22]

No offence jst the truth you sound like a 10 year old?...you just keep asking the same questions.. Mashaallah boys on your work. Especially islam his .. Any tom dik harry would not find it hard to distinguish who is of higher calibre intellectually. Good stuff but i think you've said and endured enough with this brother, its suffice for him to contemplate on. And may Allah guide his heart to the truth.

Just the truth sorry but i dont mean to hurt ya bro. But instead of looking at the dish and criticizing just have a taste of the bulk and then you can play devils advocate, honestly from the beginning and 29 pages later its the same bloody questions on both ends. If want you to learn more i can send you a pdf file and it has numerous hadiths of ahlulbayt strictly from sunni narrations and if your sincere in you attitude and swallow this info with a heart of accceptance. You will have be happier than you are now guranteed!

Another thing is ask yourselves in this situation as we speak, what and how will our holy prophet and his family deal with just the truth??

This debate has to finish, its ridicoulous. We have our beliefs, you you have yours, with all due respect.

[Just the truth 117]

Let me just finish off what i need to say, then i will comment on your points. If a square pizza is put infront then, you will say what??? A square pizza??? Because pizzas are suppose to be round and this is square. The shape has changed, which has brought alarm but the origin is the same. You will still call it a pizza and just because the shape is changed, you wont call it anything else.

The same isn't true about Ulul Amre and Nass. The verses are Allah's words and nobody is turning anybody into Gods. It's just your misunderstanding and by the way others do exist apart from Allah and Nass in many ways, creation wise and authority wise. Allah isn't the only authority and Nass isn't the only creation.

Brother just the truth, i'm certainly not like you. I stick to what i say and show me where i said that you are a Kafir or i consider you as a Kafir??? Give me the exact words. I don't want you to put your meaning in my words. The definition of a Kafir would also be rejecting any principal of faith. Now what are you and how you exactly believe in Islam is down to you. That is between you and your Allah but yes, i agree with you that, rejecting a principal of faith and belief, would definately throw you out of the fold of Islam.

It doesn't bother me what you are interested in, home made or foreign made or what ever. I've put my understanding and explanation forward to you and it is open for debate. Now it's about time you brought at least something, rather than nothing what so ever.

Like i've said before that if someone doesn't believe in Allah, Quran and the Messenger (pbuh), how are you going to discuss and debate with them??? How are you going to try and convince them??? What method are you going to use??? Are you going to put references, from Quran and Sunnah forward??? The person doesn't believe in Quran and Sunnah to begin with. It's obvious that you will use sense and logic, reality and facts and use nature as your base.

Brother just the truth, leave bring me this and get me that out of this. Start to discuss and debate at basic level.

Ok fine you never called me a kafir, but you said rejecting Imamate which Is a fundamental makes you are kafir, so 1 add 1 is 2.

AMEEN how can we discuss this verse when we don't Agee on its translation!!!!!!

This is why I'm asking you to bring me translation and tafsir

Assalamu alaykum

Edited October 18, 2013 by Just the truth

[Aliyulakbar 22]

Just the truth, on quran majid on the iphone, flick through to the verse and you will find your answer in the english yusuf and the usmani transalation/tafsir NOTHING GOT TO DO WITH SHIA

^^ 4:59

[StrugglingForTheLight 1,630]

Let me just finish off what i need to say, then i will comment on your points. If a square pizza is put infront then, you will say what??? A square pizza??? Because pizzas are suppose to be round and this is square. The shape has changed, which has brought alarm but the origin is the same. You will still call it a pizza and just because the shape is changed, you wont call it anything else.

The same isn't true about Ulul Amre and Nass. The verses are Allah's words and nobody is turning anybody into Gods. It's just your misunderstanding and by the way others do exist apart from Allah and Nass in many ways, creation wise and authority wise. Allah isn't the only authority and Nass isn't the only creation.

Brother just the truth, i'm certainly not like you. I stick to what i say and show me where i said that you are a Kafir or i consider you as a Kafir??? Give me the exact words. I don't want you to put your meaning in my words. The definition of a Kafir would also be rejecting any principal of faith. Now what are you and how you exactly believe in Islam is down to you. That is between you and your Allah but yes, i agree with you that, rejecting a principal of faith and belief, would definately throw you out of the fold of Islam.

It doesn't bother me what you are interested in, home made or foreign made or what ever. I've put my understanding and explanation forward to you and it is open for debate. Now it's about time you brought at least something, rather than nothing what so ever.

Like i've said before that if someone doesn't believe in Allah, Quran and the Messenger (pbuh), how are you going to discuss and debate with them??? How are you going to try and convince them??? What method are you going to use??? Are you going to put references, from Quran and Sunnah forward??? The person doesn't believe in Quran and Sunnah to begin with. It's obvious that you will use sense and logic, reality and facts and use nature as your base.

Brother just the truth, leave bring me this and get me that out of this. Start to discuss and debate at basic level.

 

Thank you. I know what you are trying to say to me. I'm not going to nitpick your words. It's hard a test we in. 

 

Jebreil on shiachat helped me a lot because I scent that he had wisdom I may one day learn because I infact do agree with it.

 

I hope he learns one day to prove Ulil-Amr are Ahlebayt in the most clearest manner.

 

I been trying but ramble on too much often.

 

My summary what I'm trying to say is: Hadithal Thaqalain is clear to some not clear to others. The context of Ali Mawla is clear to some not clear to others. 

 

Those were meant to be the Balagha of Ali wilayah.

 

Why are you trying to push a person to recognize something that perhaps takes patience and time to see and understand? 

 

You did your best. Talk about and emphasize on what is clear to all Muslims or at least 99% of each sect. In the agreed upon teachings is the cure and way about to clarify what is less clear to people.

 

It's a thick veil the Quran has.  When you recognize our inability to express the simplest way possible and try to learn to eloquently and beautifully express your belief.

 

You are trying to show him.  Ok. I say said good try. But if a program doesn't work because it's too complex, you need to learn to make it concise. 

 

Simple words. Simple speech.

 

It's Ya Seen. O hearer of revelation. Remind people to work with what they know to clarify the unclear falsehoods they are in. Don't push him to a quick decision.

BTw- commercials, shows, TV, is changing our view on food. 

 

Still the word food in paradise is going to mean entirely different but at the same time, the same thing.

Edited October 18, 2013 by StrugglingForTheLight

[Aliyulakbar 22]

let us see what Ibn Taymiyah has said in Majmo’a al-Fatawa, Volume 5, page 391

الْإِمَامَ أَبَا بَكْرٍ مُحَمَّدَ بْنَ إسْحَاقَ بْنِ خُزَيْمَة يَقُولُ : مَنْ لَمْ يُقِرَّ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى عَرْشِهِ قَدْ سْتَوَى فَوْقَ سَبْعِ سَمَوَاتِهِ ؛ فَهُوَ كَافِرٌ بِهِ حَلَالُ الدَّمِ يُسْتَتَابُ فَإِنْ تَابَ ؛ وَإِلَّا ضُرِبَتْ عُنُقُهُ وَأُلْقِيَ عَلَى بَعْضِ الْمَزَابِلِ .

Imam Aba Bakr Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Khuzaima said: ‘Whoever does not admit that Allah is sitting on a throne above the seventh sky, is a Kafir and his blood must be shed. He must be made to repent. Otherwise his neck must be struck and thrown into the garbage.’

[TheIslamHistory 7]

AMEEN stop switching your stance and re read your own reply above.

You said:

Imaamath is a principal of faith and to reject it, one falls out of the fold of Islam.

You also said

You being a Sunni, are you a Muslim or a kafir? My first statement tells you that. Now why I don't call you a kafir, my second statement should tell you that.

Your first statement that rejecting Imamate takes you outside the fold of islam

Second statement you don't call me kafir because you believe in brotherhood and don't believe in cursing and insulting

Stop switching your stance.

AMEEN I'm not the slightest bit interested in your home made translation. Bring me a translation with tafseer for verse 4:59.

ISLAMIC history I've used quran which is the main source to prove to you that verse 4:59 is not talking about any usul. If you still reject my answer then I believe we will never reach a conclusion and it's better that me and you end our discussion and you leave this thread to me and AMEEN. Also since you don't know that rejecting an usul makes you are KAAFIR then I'm Better of talking to a brick wall!!

Assalamu alaykum

 

 

(1) your talking to a Human Being who has brought upon you Authentic Traditions form your own Sunni Literature.

(2) You cannot say "I used the Quran" When you are not a Scholar nor are you Above or below that. You do not know the Meanings behind all verses, we we do not accept assumptions, only what, which is from your or my Literature, which the the hujja.

(3) Concerning Usul I made a clear Response which you failed to Answer at page 27. And yet no Response.

(4) what is your School of thought? Please answer this Properly.

Edited October 18, 2013 by TheIslamHistory

[Aliyulakbar 22]

Cant wait to here the answer!^^

Hear*

[StrugglingForTheLight 1,630]

They are asking questions to learn to cure you and share their treasure bro. This all I can assure you.

[Just the truth 117]

(1) your talking to a Human Being who has brought upon you Authentic Traditions form your own Sunni Literature.

(2) You cannot say "I used the Quran" When you are not a Scholar nor are you Above or below that. You do not know the Meanings behind all verses, we we do not accept assumptions, only what, which is from your or my Literature, which the the hujja.

(3) Concerning Usul I made a clear Response which you failed to Answer at page 27. And yet no Response.

(4) what is your School of thought? Please answer this Properly.

The ISLAMIC history I used quran paak just like you have been using quran paak so if I'm not qualified to use it then neither are you.

Brother lets not beat around the bush if you don't know that rejecting any usul takes you outside the folds of islam then I'm sorry but you need to go and educate yourself.

Regarding my school of thought, this has nothing to do with the topic.

So like I said if you don't know basic islam then i rather talk to a brick wall. Basic islam meaning rejecting an usul makes you a kafir.

Cant wait to here the answer!^^

Hear*

...and who exactly are you?? Brother if you're not willing to contribute positively then don't contribute at all. Thank you.

Also brother to your disappointment I'm not a follower of ibn tamiyyah like the brothers on this forum know.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Just the truth

[Aliyulakbar 22]

...and who exactly are you?? Brother if you're not willing to contribute positively then don't contribute at all. Thank you.

Also brother to your disappointment I'm not a follower of ibn tamiyyah like the brothers on this forum know.

Hey i've been following this debate,

Bro just the truth, this is my positive contribution, just like islam history said:

A Muslim is one who testifies to the oneness of Allah swt and the Messengership of Prophet Muhammad(s)

Simplified analogy!

both islam history and just the truth are both Muslim and both intend to obey whatever the Messenger brought right?...

but the issue is that we differ on what he ordered, and if PROOF( from your own literature btw) comes to any of the two regarding the oppositions TRUTHfulness (islam history) and they reject, then they are kaffirs, be they Sunni or SHIA or whatever you wanna name it.

Cant get anymore simple

AND NO BRO dont even try accusing me of calling you a kafir.

Further more flick through the forum mate, islam history has got some fantastic input. Your missing out.

[TheIslamHistory 7]

The ISLAMIC history I used quran paak just like you have been using quran paak so if I'm not qualified to use it then neither are you.

Brother lets not beat around the bush if you don't know that rejecting any usul takes you outside the folds of islam then I'm sorry but you need to go and educate yourself.

Regarding my school of thought, this has nothing to do with the topic.

So like I said if you don't know basic islam then i rather talk to a brick wall. Basic islam meaning rejecting an usul makes you a kafir.

...and who exactly are you?? Brother if you're not willing to contribute positively then don't contribute at all. Thank you.

Also brother to your disappointment I'm not a follower of ibn tamiyyah like the brothers on this forum know.

 

 

(1) brother I gave you an Answer on Usul please no need for Insults and your Sarcasm. And no in your case it does not mean you are not a Muslim (check page 27).

(2) if you want reveal to us your school of thought, then there is no such thing as a debate. 

(3) you are at the state of denial and have no proof whatsoever of all that which you have stated.

(4) And you are wrong. (check page 27) at the moment no reply is given.

(5) respect others.

(wasalam)

[Just the truth 117]

(1) brother I gave you an Answer on Usul please no need for Insults and your Sarcasm. And no in your case it does not mean you are not a Muslim (check page 27).

(2) if you want reveal to us your school of thought, then there is no such thing as a debate.

(3) you are at the state of denial and have no proof whatsoever of all that which you have stated.

(4) And you are wrong. (check page 27) at the moment no reply is given.

(5) respect others.

(wasalam)

The ISLAMIC history you really need to understand that denying any usul takes you outside islam. BOTTOM LINE.

IF anyone rejected any other usul like angels you and I would call them kafir no questions asked. Don't reply saying "why would you deny angels". I'm not saying I would deny angels but what I am saying is IF IF IF I denied angels I would be a kafir so why is imamat an exception??

You can come here and use your baseless argument that "I havnt proven anything" because it means zero.

I showed you nahj ul balagah letter 6 and your reply is that ali a.s meant that he was using " there"method against "them". Well I'm sorry but where does ali a.s say such a statement in the letter??

Also what do you make of letter 58 in nahj ul balagah??

I've told you why I refuse the fact that verse 4:59 is talking specifically about your ims yet you close your eyes and simply ignore and go back to that baseless reason of yours saying I havnt "proven anything".

Il tell you one last time then I want you to tell me why Imamate is an exception when it comes to remaining a Muslim.

Verse 4:59.

First authority: Allah (swt)

Second authority: prophet (pbuh)

Third authority: ulil amr????? This is no special name as it only means those in/with authority. So I'm sorry it's not precisely talking about your "imams".

How you call somebody a Muslim even after they reject an usul is beyond me.

Hey i've been following this debate,

Bro just the truth, this is my positive contribution, just like islam history said:

A Muslim is one who testifies to the oneness of Allah swt and the Messengership of Prophet Muhammad(s)

Simplified analogy!

both islam history and just the truth are both Muslim and both intend to obey whatever the Messenger brought right?...

but the issue is that we differ on what he ordered, and if PROOF( from your own literature btw) comes to any of the two regarding the oppositions TRUTHfulness (islam history) and they reject, then they are kaffirs, be they Sunni or SHIA or whatever you wanna name it.

Cant get anymore simple

AND NO BRO dont even try accusing me of calling you a kafir.

Further more flick through the forum mate, islam history has got some fantastic input. Your missing out.

Assalamu alaykum

Bro don't say you're confused aswell regarding how one remains a Muslim even after rejecting an usul. Usul's (foundations) are in PRECISE verses as we are told in surah 3:7.

Assalamu alaykum

[Ameen 510]

Ok fine you never called me a kafir, but you said rejecting Imamate which Is a fundamental makes you are kafir, so 1 add 1 is 2.

AMEEN how can we discuss this verse when we don't Agee on its translation!!!!!!

This is why I'm asking you to bring me translation and tafsir

Assalamu alaykum

Listen brother just the truth, you have a basic definition of a Kafir, which every Muslim agrees on, regardless of which Islamic sect they belong to. Let me give you examples on the way. Anyone who doesn't agree that Muhammad (pbuh) is Allah's Messenger basically is a Kafir (non believer). Now it is obvious that who ever doesn't believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as Messenger of Allah, will also not believe in the Islam, Quran, Kaba etc etc, because it all cicks of from Muhammad (pbuh).

Now how does one become a Muslim??? It is well known through out the Muslim world that, one must testify. Testify what or in what??? The two testimonies and the first is, 1, I bear witness that their is nobody worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only kind and has no associate. 2, I bear witness that Muhammad (pbuh) is Allah's Messenger and he is Allah's last chosen spokesman.

Some people just keep the testimony in half, which is the actual important bit and believe that the second half of the testimony comes into attributes of Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). There is no third testimony to become a Muslim. Brother it mind sound difficult to understand but everything is difficult, when you are not certain and aware of it. Lack of knowledge, information and awareness is what causes confusion and it is confusion that causes problems.

To be continued!

[TheIslamHistory 7]

Statement:

The ISLAMIC history you really need to understand that denying any usul takes you outside islam. BOTTOM LINE. IF anyone rejected any other usul like angels you and I would call them kafir no questions asked. Don't reply saying "why would you deny angels". I'm not saying I would deny angels but what I am saying is IF IF IF I denied angels I would be a kafir so why is imamat an exception?? You can come here and use your baseless argument that "I havnt proven anything" because it means zero. I showed you nahj ul balagah letter 6 and your reply is that ali a.s meant that he was using " there"method against "them". Well I'm sorry but where does ali a.s say such a statement in the letter?? Also what do you make of letter 58 in nahj ul balagah??

 

 

(1) No it does not my dear friend I gave an Explanation on:
 

page 27, post 671#: (No reply at all )

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-27


Page 28, post 698#: (No reply at all )

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235018052-singing-in-shia-lecture/

 

page 25, post 603#: (No reply in logic or proof)

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-25

 

 

 

(2) Letter 6 and 58:

page 20, post 485#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-20

 

 

Page 20, post 497#; (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-20

 

 

Page 22, post 535#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-22

 

 

______________________________________________________________________

Your Insulting behavior has gone over the top dear friend. I hope that you are knowledgeable in knowing that this is not a form of debate anymore, but a repetition of rhetorical Questions. The given above are clear explanation of what you have repeated above, and yet the response is your hold is Denial and the emphasis of "no". Importing previous issues into the current subject you have manipulated, cannot be a logical response on your account. Please reply to the above and then we may proceed. As of now, the readers will clearly who is denying and who is debating with sensibility       



 

Statement:

I've told you why I refuse the fact that verse 4:59 is talking specifically about your ims yet you close your eyes and simply ignore and go back to that baseless reason of yours saying I havnt "proven anything".  Il tell you one last time then I want you to tell me why Imamate is an exception when it comes to remaining a Muslim.  Verse 4:59. First authority: Allah  Second authority: prophet (s). Third authority: ulil amr????? This is no special name as it only means those in/with authority.

 

(1) The issue has been proven through a number of Authentic Traditions and yet no refutation to such as been given, nor a refutation of the chain of the narrations:

 

 

 

 

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-8  (post 188#) - No refutation to the hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-5  (post 108#) - No refutation to the Hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-9  (post 201, 203, 204, 206, 207#) -No Refutations on the Hadiths Given...)

http://www.shiachat....-is-obligatory/  (This was post was made for you long time ago ) Yet I received no Replies.

http://www.shiachat....-of-12-caliphs/  ( page 2,3 and 4 ) -No Refutation to the Hadiths given so far.

and more as I cannot Locate them All.   

 

 

(2) Many of our Muslim brothers tend to interpret "Ulul-Amr Minkum”as the rulers from among yourselves, i.e., Muslims rulers. This interpretation is not based on any logical/Qur’anic reasoning; it is solely based on the twists of history. The majority of the Muslims have remained as a vassal of the monarchs and rulers, interpreting and reinterpreting Islam and the Qur’an to strengthen their own kingdom. The history of Muslims (like any other nations) is replete with the names of rulers whose injustice, debauchery and tyranny have tarnished the name of Islam. Such rulers have always been and will be. And we are told that they are the Ulul-Amr mentioned in this verse!

 

 

If Allah were to order us to obey such kings and rulers, an impossible situation would be created for Muslims. The wretched followers would be condemned to the displeasure of Allah, no matter what they do. If they obey these rulers, they have disobeyed the Command of Allah:

 

"Do not obey a sinner”(Qur’an 76:24).

 

And if they disobey such rulers, they have again disobeyed the Command of Allah: "Obey the Muslim rulers”(if it would mean so). Therefore if we accept this interpretation, Muslims are condemned to eternal disgrace whether they obey or disobey their fallible (sinful) Muslim rulers.

 

Also, there are Muslim rulers of different schools and persuasions. There are Shafi'is, Hanbalis, Malikis, Hanafis, as well as the Shi'a and Ibadis. Now, according to this interpretation the Sunnis residing under an Ibadi king (like in Amman) should follow Ibadi tenets; and those residing under a Shi'a ruler (like in Iran) should follow the Shi'a beliefs. Do these people have the conviction of courage to follow their professed interpretation to its logical end?

 

The famous Sunni scholar, Fakhr al-Razi, concluded in his Tafsir al-Kabir that this verse proves that Ulul-Amr must be infallible (Ma'sum). He argues that Allah has commanded people to obey Ulul-Amr unconditionally; therefore, it is essential for the Ulul-Amr to be infallible; because if there is any possibility of their committing sin (and sin is forbidden), it means that one has to obey them and also disobey them in that very action, and this is impossible! However, in order to dissuade his readers from the Ahlul-Bait, Fakhr al-Razi invented the theory that the Muslim community as a whole is infallible! (Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin Muhammad Ibn Umar al-Razi, v10, p144)

 

This interpretation is unique, and no Muslim scholar ever subscribed to this theory and it is not based on any tradition. It is quite surprising that Fakhr al-Razi accepts that each individual of the Muslim nation is fallible, yet claims that their sum total is infallible. Even a primary school student knows that 200 cows plus 200 cows makes 400 cows and not one horse. But Fakhr al-Razi says that 70 million fallible people plus 70 million fallible people will make one infallible! Does he want us to believe that if all the patients of a mental hospital join together they would be equal to one sane person? Obviously, with his knowledge of Qur’an, he was able to conclude that Ulul-Amr must be infallible; yet he did not pause to see that the verse contains the word "minkum”(from among you) which shows that Ulul-Amr should be part of Muslim community, not the whole Muslim nation. Moreover, if the whole Muslim nation is to be obeyed, then who is there left to obey? Moreover, the whole community have never had a single voice. Then who should we follow among them? Also, the opinion of majority is not a good criteria to distinguish the false from the truth. Looking at the Qur’an, one could see that Qur’an severely denounces the majority of by frequently saying that "the majority do not understand,”"the majority do not use their logic,”"the majority follow their whims"... since the vision of the majority of people is always impaired due to their tendencies.(see e.g. 6:116, 5:49, 10:92, 30:8) We now turn to the correct interpretation of the above verse, that is the interpretation of the verse by Ahlul-Bait. Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (the 6th Imam) said that this verse was revealed about ‘Ali, al-Hasan and al-Husain, peace be upon them. Upon hearing this, someone asked the Imam: "People say, why did Allah not mention the name of ‘Ali and his family in His Book?”Imam answered:

 

"Tell them that there came the command of Salat (prayer), but Allah did not mention whether three or four units to be performed; it was the Messenger of Allah who explained all the details. And (the command of) Zakat (religious tax) was revealed, but Allah did not say that it is one in every forty Dirhams; it was the Messenger of Allah who explained it; and Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was ordered but Allah did not say to perform Tawaf (turning around Ka'ba) seven times; it was the Messenger of Allah who explained it. Likewise, the verse was revealed: Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you, and it was revealed about ‘Ali and al-Hasan and al-Husain (who were the only living Imams at the time of the Prophet)."

 

It is quite obvious that if Allah would have ever mentioned the name of Imam ‘Ali a.s. in Qur’an explicitly, those who bore mountains of hatred against him would have attempted to alter the Qur’an. Thus this was the Grace of Allah that He codified all the branches of knowledge of religion in Qur’an to be understood only by the processors of the understanding mind. And in this way, Allah kept Qur’an intact. On the commentary of the verse 4:59 of Qur’an in which Allah orders us to obey Ulul-Amr, al-Khazzaz in his book, Kifayatul Athar, gives a tradition on the authority of the well-known companion of the Prophet (S), Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (ra):

 

 

When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (S): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"

 

The Prophet (S) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me. The first of them is ‘Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husain; then ‘Ali son of al-Husain; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali who has been mentioned 'al-Baqir' in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja'far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja'far; then ‘Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of ‘Ali; then ‘Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of ‘Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith."

 

Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know.”(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).

 

Now that we know who "those vested with authority”are, it is evident that the question of obeying tyrant and unjust rulers does not rise at all. Muslims are not required by the above verse to obey rulers who may be unjust, tyrannical, ignorant, selfish and sunk in debauchery. They are, in fact, ordered to obey the specified Twelve Imams, all of whom were sinless and free from evil thoughts and deeds. Obeying them has no risks whatsoever. Nay, it protects from all risks; because they will never give an order against the order of Allah and will treat all human beings with love, justice, and equity.

 

 

 

Dear brother its Crucial to inform us of your school of thought, otherwise why would you hide it? I think it would be helpful for you to mention so, so I am able to quote from your scholar that you follow.

 

في ايمان الله

Edited October 18, 2013 by TheIslamHistory

[Ameen 510]

This business (discussion/arguments/debates) is very time consuming and requires a lot of effort, commitment and hard work, putting everything together, looking up references etc, as you gentlemen are fully aware of, since you're in it. Lets carry on! I think the definition of, how to become a Muslim, is fully clear and if not then, please do not hesitate to put your opinion forward.

Now once somebody has entered Islam there are many many and many ways, where one can throw themselves straight out of the fold of Islam. Some situations and matters are agreed between all Islamic sects that, in such a situation and matter, one no longer remains a Muslim but in some situations and matters, there is a disagreement between sects and even between individuals, belonging to the same sect.

Lets me explain by example, brothers just the truth, Islam history and I all believe that, not having belief in angels and genes, that they are Allah's creation and exist just as we, not believing in the Bible that it was the book of Allah and Jesus (as) was his Messenger, not believing that Salah is wajib within Islam, will automatically throw you out of the fold of Islam.

I'm sure brothers all agree to this regardless of which sect or school of thought we are attached to. But in some matters we might and even do disagree. Sunnis of the same sect and school of thought disagree on the status of the Shia. Some consider them Muslims and others don't (Kafir). Some Sunnis believe they (Shias) are Muslims just as we are and have the right to follow their school of thought, just as us and others believe Shias are Muslims but are murtad or I'll faith (bad Aqeedah) due to certain views the Shia have.

To be continued!

[Ameen 510]

The same goes for the Shias. They all belong to Fiqah Jaffaria school of thought or the Ahlul Baith school of thought (both are the same but two different names) but they differ in thought opinion and point of view. Some even differ from the sixth Imaam (Jaffar Al Sadiq a.s) and take a different direction or root from Imaam Sadiq (as). Brother Islam history has his thought opinion and point of view and sometimes I might agree or differ in that thought opinion and point of view, even that we both belong to the same school of thought, just as the Sunnis.

But one thing we should understand is we need to respect and accept, each others thought opinion and point of view, rather than accusing and abusing each other of sometimes taqeya and other times Tehreef etc. I can openly say this that brother Islam history isn't in taqeya and he has a right to his opinion. Now if brother Islam history believes that, Imaamath is a principal of faith but if someone rejects it then, that doesn't throw one out of the fold of Islam or one doesn't become a Kafir by rejecting Shia version of Imamath, then he has a right to his opinion, if this is what he believes in.

Very interesting discussion/debate between brothers Islam history and Just the truth. A very important question and an important point raised by brother just the truth, about Shia version of Imaamath being a principal of faith and to reject it, what would ones position be according to Islam. Still a Muslim??? Or now a Kafir??? An excellent response by brother Islam history. I have gone and deeply looked in to this matter, with great detail and depth and I've come up with something interesting. Brother just the truth has his point but after looking into it in great detail, brother Islam history also has a very important point and a very strong case. Will share it with you.

To be continued!

Edited October 18, 2013 by Ameen

[TheIslamHistory 7]

This business (discussion/arguments/debates) is very time consuming and requires a lot of effort, commitment and hard work, putting everything together, looking up references etc, as you gentlemen are fully aware of, since you're in it. Lets carry on! I think the definition of, how to become a Muslim, is fully clear and if not then, please do not hesitate to put your opinion forward.

Now once somebody has entered Islam there are many many and many ways, where one can throw themselves straight out of the fold of Islam. Some situations and matters are agreed between all Islamic sects that, in such a situation and matter, one no longer remains a Muslim but in some situations and matters, there is a disagreement between sects and even between individuals, belonging to the same sect.

Lets me explain by example, brothers just the truth, Islam history and I all believe that, not having belief in angels and genes, that they are Allah's creation and exist just as we, not believing in the Bible that it was the book of Allah and Jesus (as) was his Messenger, not believing that Salah is wajib within Islam, will automatically throw you out of the fold of Islam.

I'm sure brothers all agree to this regardless of which sect or school of thought we are attached to. But in some matters we might and even do disagree. Sunnis of the same sect and school of thought disagree on the status of the Shia. Some consider them Muslims and others don't (Kafir). Some Sunnis believe they (Shias) are Muslims just as we are and have the right to follow their school of thought, just as us and others believe Shias are Muslims but are murtad or I'll faith (bad Aqeedah) due to certain views the Shia have.

To be continued!

 

 

 

Just would like to Add:

 

To them we have imported a Concept into the rest of the concepts, so technically we are Out of the fold of Islam since we have added (according to them) another criteria, which they reject (according to their belief, but their literature contradicts that), in the aspect taken, the foundations (prime), which both sides have in common are the same in concept (May differ in description though, but yet the same) are both fulfilled in both sides, but the one concept which we differ in is successorship, which depends on what literature is take from who and why. Therefore knowing that, that one criteria may differ, it yet does not take one out of (completely) from islam.

(wasalam)     

His case on verse 5:55 and verse 4:59 has yet not been proven to make "This" Case (In relation to Usul) an Authentic one,  to try and proceed to a further point which does not exist logically.

 

Edited October 18, 2013 by TheIslamHistory

[Just the truth 117]

The ISLAMIC history I am not the slightest bit interested in your long copy and pasted nor do I have the time to read them. Stick to the main point please. Thank you

I will ask you again. IF IF IF I reject angels or yawm al qiyamah would I remain Muslim?? Simple yes or no. Don't reply saying "why would you reject these two usul's" as I wouldn't but I'm saying what IF I did what would be the case.

Secondly you can bring them "hadith"/threads back not once not twice but 300 times it makes no difference because until you can prove that your twelve imams were appointed from quran through a precise verse they mean nothing. An usul has to be proven through a precise verse in the quran BEFORE we go to hadith.

You also bought this verse:

"Do not obey a sinner”(Qur’an 76:24).

You bought this verse to show that we should not obey a sinner well could you explain this verse to me as to who is a sinner?? Please.

The same goes for the Shias. They all belong to Fiqah Jaffaria school of thought or the Ahlul Baith school of thought (both are the same but two different names) but they differ in thought opinion and point of view. Some even differ from the sixth Imaam (Jaffar Al Sadiq a.s) and take a different direction or root from Imaam Sadiq (as). Brother Islam history has his thought opinion and point of view and sometimes I might agree or differ in that thought opinion and point of view, even that we both belong to the same school of thought, just as the Sunnis.

But one thing we should understand is we need to respect and accept, each others thought opinion and point of view, rather than accusing and abusing each other of sometimes taqeya and other times Tehreef etc. I can openly say this that brother Islam history isn't in taqeya and he has a right to his opinion. Now if brother Islam history believes that, Imaamath is a principal of faith but if someone rejects it then, that doesn't throw one out of the fold of Islam or one doesn't become a Kafir by rejecting Shia version of Imamath, then he has a right to his opinion, if this is what he believes in.

Very interesting discussion/debate between brothers Islam history and Just the truth. A very important question and an important point raised by brother just the truth, about Shia version of Imaamath being a principal of faith and to reject it, what would ones position be according to Islam. Still a Muslim??? Or now a Kafir??? An excellent response by brother Islam history. I have gone and deeply looked in to this matter, with great detail and depth and I've come up with something interesting. Brother just the truth has his point but after looking into it in great detail, brother Islam history also has a very important point and a very strong case. Will share it with you.

To be continued!

AMEEN my dear brother please STOP wasting time and bring a TRANLATION and tafseer of verse 4:59 to prove your stance on fee shayin also bring me a translation where SUNNIS have said the word "obey" exists in wa ulul re minkum. Please. Thank you.

[TheIslamHistory 7]

Statement:

The ISLAMIC history I am not the slightest bit interested in your long copy and pasted nor do I have the time to read them. Stick to the main point please. Thank you  I will ask you again. IF IF IF I reject angels or yawm al qiyamah would I remain Muslim?? Simple yes or no. Don't reply saying "why would you reject these two usul's" as I wouldn't but I'm saying what IF I did what would be the case. 

 

I gave an answer and now where is your response. A simple yes or no, will lead you to contradicting ones belief without knowing any of how he defines it, according to his school of thought. I gave a very high clear answer:

 

 

page 27, post 671#: (No reply at all )

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-27


Page 28, post 698#: (No reply at all )

 

http://www.shiachat....n-shia-lecture/

 

page 25, post 603#: (No reply in logic or proof)

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-25

 

 

 

(2) Letter 6 and 58:

page 20, post 485#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

 

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-20

 

 

Page 20, post 497#; (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-20

 

 

Page 22, post 535#: (reply: 'denial', Refutation: 'Literature & Context) 

 

http://www.shiachat....lil-amr/page-22

 

 

______________________________________________________________________

Your Insulting behavior has gone over the top dear friend. I hope that you are knowledgeable in knowing that this is not a form of debate anymore, but a repetition of rhetorical Questions. The given above are clear explanation of what you have repeated above, and yet the response is your hold is Denial and the emphasis of "no". Importing previous issues into the current subject you have manipulated, cannot be a logical response on your account. Please reply to the above and then we may proceed. As of now, the readers will clearly who is denying and who is debating with sensibility       

 

 

 

Statement:
Secondly you can bring them "hadith"/threads back not once not twice but 300 times it makes no difference because until you can prove that your twelve imams were appointed from quran through a precise verse they mean nothing. An usul has to be proven through a precise verse in the quran BEFORE we go to hadith.

 

(1) yes we have proven it, and you fail to acknowledge your own Sunni Literature:
 

 

 

 

 

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-8  (post 188#) - No refutation to the hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-5  (post 108#) - No refutation to the Hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-9  (post 201, 203, 204, 206, 207#) -No Refutations on the Hadiths Given...)

http://www.shiachat....-is-obligatory/  (This was post was made for you long time ago ) Yet I received no Replies.

http://www.shiachat....-of-12-caliphs/  ( page 2,3 and 4 ) -No Refutation to the Hadiths given so far.

and more as I cannot Locate them All.   

 

While you have not proven the following:

 

 

(1) Shura (not proven)
(2) Abu bakr Caliphate and the rest (Not proven)
(3) bukhari Hadith you mentioned on Uli al amr (contradicted)
(4) your definition of Imam Mahdi (Not proven)
(5) The wives are of ahlulbayt (not proven)
(6) Justice of Muwaiyah (not proven)
(7) Wali in your definition (not proven)
(8) your identities of the 12 Caliphs (not even given yet? no proof?)

and much more.

  

Statement:
You bought this verse to show that we should not obey a sinner well could you explain this verse to me as to who is a sinner?? Please.

 

The one Who goes against the Orders of Allah (The Quran) and the orders of Ahlulbayt (as).


 

[Just the truth 117]

Statement:

The ISLAMIC history I am not the slightest bit interested in your long copy and pasted nor do I have the time to read them. Stick to the main point please. Thank you I will ask you again. IF IF IF I reject angels or yawm al qiyamah would I remain Muslim?? Simple yes or no. Don't reply saying "why would you reject these two usul's" as I wouldn't but I'm saying what IF I did what would be the case.

I gave an answer and now where is your response. A simple yes or no, will lead you to contradicting ones belief without knowing any of how he defines it, according to his school of thought. I gave a very high clear answer:

Statement:

Secondly you can bring them "hadith"/threads back not once not twice but 300 times it makes no difference because until you can prove that your twelve imams were appointed from quran through a precise verse they mean nothing. An usul has to be proven through a precise verse in the quran BEFORE we go to hadith.

(1) yes we have proven it, and you fail to acknowledge your own Sunni Literature:

While you have not proven the following:

(1) Shura (not proven)

(2) Abu bakr Caliphate and the rest (Not proven)

(3) bukhari Hadith you mentioned on Uli al amr (contradicted)

(4) your definition of Imam Mahdi (Not proven)

(5) The wives are of ahlulbayt (not proven)

(6) Justice of Muwaiyah (not proven)

(7) Wali in your definition (not proven)

(8) your identities of the 12 Caliphs (not even given yet? no proof?)

and much more.

Statement:

You bought this verse to show that we should not obey a sinner well could you explain this verse to me as to who is a sinner?? Please.

The one Who goes against the Orders of Allah (The Quran) and the orders of Ahlulbayt (as).

The ISLAMIC history you are not answering but claiming I have not answered. Wow... Great work.

I will ask you again.

IF I reject angels will I remain a Muslim because according to your theory we can.

Please could you explain letter 58 and in letter 6 you get all the answers you need.

You still having told me the meaning if the verse "do not obey a sinner".

What do you exactly mean by this verse. "Do no obey a sinner".