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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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(1) and here you cease to even reply. In addition its Ironic how you call them theories, since you Reject your own Six Sahihs. brother, these are not theories genius. These are Authentic Hadiths I gave you from your own books. You either did not bother to read them, or You ignored them knowingly.

(2) Understand Wilaya before talking about Imamah.

(3) So its okay to to reject the Kholafa al Rashedoon?

Brother this is one of my last posts as I have made a firm intention of spending more time in worship.

Brother I never ceased to answer you I told you that you are not KAAFIR for rejecting khulafa rashideen. Brother I am not going to get into a full blown debate AGAIN with you all I am going to say is the below then leave it to you.

Brother Imamate according to you is an usul and an usul is an usul so one cannot accept part of an usul and reject the other half and expect to be classified as a Muslim.

Imate is believing ali a.s is the FIRST caliph/imam and that he is appointed by Allah (swt) and I reject both of the above. Imam ali a.s was the FOURTH caliph and was NOT appointed.

I totally reject Imamate of 12 imams yet you still call me a Muslim even after I reject an usul.

Here is my conclusion below which I have personally reached and I intend imam king this one of my last posts so there is no need for you to refute my conclusion as it believe whole heartedly In my conclusion.

MY CONCLUSION

If Imamate of 12 imams is PRECISELY mentioned in quran then the SUNNIS are DEFINATELY KAAFIR for rejecting a PRECISE verse of the quran.

If there is no precise verse then sunni are Muslims.

You can't have both ie; claim to have a PRECISE verse AND STILL call sunni Muslims for rejecting the precise verse.

Which posts are based on knowledge and information and which are based on accusations and sarcasm, people are fully aware.

Brother just the truth isn't stupid and daft either. He clearly knows the type of response he is giving, in a childish manner.

AMEEN my brother I have asked you time and time again to bring me a translation and tafsir to prove your stance that fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS. Yet you have time and time again failed to bring a tafsir to prove your stance on fee shayin. I have told you time and time again fee shayin means IN ANYTHING. You can get this verified from brother ISLAMIC history.

My dear brother it's ok. If you don't want to bring the translation and tafsir it no longer matters as I will not be here for much longer. Personally I think this is a total waste of valuable time. We should spend more time on praying etc etc.

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Brother just the truth, there is no reward for spending time in worship, if your faith and belief isn't correct. It doesn't matter if it's you, me or anyone else.

AMEEN personally I don't think that it's up to you who Allah ( swt) rewards.

Anyway brother you are still failing to bring a translation and tafseer to prove your stance my dear brother. So I will leave it here and I think the best thing to do is lets both leave it out and part ways.

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Brother this is one of my last posts as I have made a firm intention of spending more time in worship.

Brother I never ceased to answer you I told you that you are not KAAFIR for rejecting khulafa rashideen. Brother I am not going to get into a full blown debate AGAIN with you all I am going to say is the below then leave it to you.

Brother Imamate according to you is an usul and an usul is an usul so one cannot accept part of an usul and reject the other half and expect to be classified as a Muslim.

Imate is believing ali a.s is the FIRST caliph/imam and that he is appointed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and I reject both of the above. Imam ali a.s was the FOURTH caliph and was NOT appointed.

I totally reject Imamate of 12 imams yet you still call me a Muslim even after I reject an usul.

Here is my conclusion below which I have personally reached and I intend imam king this one of my last posts so there is no need for you to refute my conclusion as it believe whole heartedly In my conclusion.

MY CONCLUSION

If Imamate of 12 imams is PRECISELY mentioned in quran then the SUNNIS are DEFINATELY KAAFIR for rejecting a PRECISE verse of the quran.

If there is no precise verse then sunni are Muslims.

 

 

 

Dear JusTheTruth,

It is not doubt that you have ignored almost all of my Questions, Resources, facts, And the sunni works of your own Sect that I have put forward. At the moment your only Hujja you claim upon me is the illogical consensus of our sect in the principles of Islam. So far you have not answered my questions on the subject of Caliphs, Shura, Umar and Abu bakrs Atrocity and the fasle accusations and fabricated facts you have put forward. Nevertheless this does not mean anything to me, it is what you make of the truth and not I. Its very strange how a person from his own sect would ignore  most of the Authentic traditions from his own books such as the six sahihs and the books of the same authors who have wrote the six sahih. Do you now acknowledge them as your high ranked scholars? Or is it you belief that you take into priority without having to trace their origin? The infancy of these beliefs, which you hold on to without realization of the origin of what has determined it is in itself an act of ignorance. Now dear brother to you the foundations of Islam differs from what we believe, and out foundations differ from what you believe. There is no use of you criticizing what you have no faith in, nor does it Justify your point of view, and nor have you made a conclusion which we both agree on so you can made a reasonable criticism to justify your accusation that has no bases. Knowing the foundations of Islam is one thing, and having faith in them is another. Sadly, you without even justifying verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 you resort to claiming that you have, by putting it with the “only” optional choice for me to choose, when in the reality of this corrupted dialogue you have not justified your points about these two verses by any means, as I have given and asked you for evidence of such statements, you simply sidestep by analogy and analysis. You then make a false claim that Ayatollah al Tabtaba’i is contradicting him self, and how can you claim such a falsehood on the respected scholar, when he knows more than you, beyond your ignorance, as you have ignored half of the tafsir, you refuse to read the rest of it. Taking such out of context will not prove anything of your ideology (That Contradicts the Sunnah). Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever

 

 

in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a  Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams  is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t]   

 

 

To your false Conclusion which has no bases. You have not confronted the evidence we have provided:

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-8  (post 188#) - No refutation to the hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-5  (post 108#) - No refutation to the Hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-9  (post 201, 203, 204, 206, 207#) -No Refutations on the Hadiths Given...)

http://www.shiachat....-is-obligatory/  (This was post was made for you long time ago ) Yet I received no Replies.

http://www.shiachat....-of-12-caliphs/  ( page 2,3 and 4 ) -No Refutation to the Hadiths given so far.

and more as I cannot Locate them All.   

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Dear JusTheTruth,

It is not doubt that you have ignored almost all of my Questions, Resources, facts, And the sunni works of your own Sect that I have put forward. At the moment your only Hujja you claim upon me is the illogical consensus of our sect in the principles of Islam. So far you have not answered my questions on the subject of Caliphs, Shura, Umar and Abu bakrs Atrocity and the fasle accusations and fabricated facts you have put forward. Nevertheless this does not mean anything to me, it is what you make of the truth and not I. Its very strange how a person from his own sect would ignore most of the Authentic traditions from his own books such as the six sahihs and the books of the same authors who have wrote the six sahih. Do you now acknowledge them as your high ranked scholars? Or is it you belief that you take into priority without having to trace their origin? The infancy of these beliefs, which you hold on to without realization of the origin of what has determined it is in itself an act of ignorance. Now dear brother to you the foundations of Islam differs from what we believe, and out foundations differ from what you believe. There is no use of you criticizing what you have no faith in, nor does it Justify your point of view, and nor have you made a conclusion which we both agree on so you can made a reasonable criticism to justify your accusation that has no bases. Knowing the foundations of Islam is one thing, and having faith in them is another. Sadly, you without even justifying verse 4:59 and verse 5:55 you resort to claiming that you have, by putting it with the “only” optional choice for me to choose, when in the reality of this corrupted dialogue you have not justified your points about these two verses by any means, as I have given and asked you for evidence of such statements, you simply sidestep by analogy and analysis. You then make a false claim that Ayatollah al Tabtaba’i is contradicting him self, and how can you claim such a falsehood on the respected scholar, when he knows more than you, beyond your ignorance, as you have ignored half of the tafsir, you refuse to read the rest of it. Taking such out of context will not prove anything of your ideology (That Contradicts the Sunnah). Entirely for us we must believe in the five foundations of Islam to be a follower of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. To become a faithful at the highest level one must believe them. This is Where the Wilayat comes into the questions. Wilayat Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s). The one who ignores Imam Ali (a.s) To be caliph, he has already reached the highest of disbelief. Wilayat is Fundamental in Islam and Shura was what goes against the Allah’s Orders and the orders of the prophet peace be upon him. How can a group of people choose the guide of the Ummah? Is it not Allah who chooses to guide Humanity? This whole Religion is Allah’s Religion it is he whom he chooses, it is he who appoints, it is he who judges and not the people. Do you claim that the people have more knowledge than Allah in choosing whom to guide the Ummah of Rashoolallah? (istaghfarallah)? I have shown you many verses of Allah appointing Caliphs and choosing whom he should guide the nation in that particular time. So Whomever Allah Chooses you must accept him as your caliph. And My friend that is the Difference between you and I. At the time of the prophet We go with Ali, and you head to Abu bakr. You follow Umar, we follow Hassan. You then Follow Muwiayah and we follow Ali. You then Follow Yazid and we follow Hussain. And We follow the rest of the chosen caliphs. There is no reason for me to leave the path which I walk on today. As you have given me no single proof of Evidence to prove your Sunni Point of view dear brother. The Foundations of Islam must Be followed no doubt, but Rejecting the Twelve Caliphs does not mean you are no Muslim, nor does it mean you are a Disbeliever, if you reject them without knowing what they are you are held with no consequence whatsoever but the burden of ignorance. Our Scholars till today have not claimed that one who is from out of the Shia sect who has no faith In Imamah is a Disbeliever

in the terms of being “Muslim”, but on the terms of being a “Faithful” you are certainly not if you reject Imamah, this is argued among our scholars but agreed upon. a Just like there are levels of belief, there are also levels of disbelief, how do you think people will get ranked in the hells and heavens? Knowingly denying the wilayah of the Imams is Kufr. Compare it as such: Was it simply fisq of the Jews who denied the Prophethood, Messengership, and Wilayah of `Isa [as]? Or was it Kufr on their part? This does not equate non-Imamis to Kufaar. It is only after certainty has come to them regarding the Wilayah and they deny it have they committed kufr. In the Shar`i sense, they would still be considered Muslim (fiqh rulings). However, their affair on the Day of Judgement is with Allah [s.w.t]

To your false Conclusion which has no bases. You have not confronted the evidence we have provided:

Stop running around in circles my dear. An usul is an usul FULLSTOP.

Tell me if I rejected lets say.... Angels or any other usul would I be a momin or a Muslim??

Of course I would be neither but I would be a KAAFIR so stop acting desperate and face reality.

Remove your taqqiyah

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Stop running around in circles my dear. An usul is an usul FULLSTOP.

Tell me if I rejected lets say.... Angels or any other usul would I be a momin or a Muslim??

Of course I would be neither but I would be a KAAFIR so stop acting desperate and face reality.

Remove your taqqiyah

Not a very good Insult. 

My answer is on the Paragraph above.

your not Kafir.

(wasalam) 

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Not a very good Insult.

My answer is on the Paragraph above.

your not Kafir.

(wasalam)

More like you're totally lost, because your answer as usual makes no sense.

AN USUL IS AN USUL you have to believe it 100 per cent FULL STOP or you're a KAAFIR. So like I said, remove the mask of taqqiyah

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More like you're totally lost, because your answer as usual makes no sense.

AN USUL IS AN USUL you have to believe it 100 per cent FULL STOP or you're a KAAFIR. So like I said, remove the mask of taqqiyah

 

 

(1) No you don't. When we are talking about Imamah. Thats what you believe but you have no proof of such. So please stop Insulting.

(2) No one is doing Taqiyah. When will you read?

(wasalam)

 

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(1) No you don't. When we are talking about Imamah. Thats what you believe but you have no proof of such. So please stop Insulting.

(2) No one is doing Taqiyah. When will you read?

(wasalam)

1. Hold up. So what you're saying is that rejecting any usul is kufr BUT Imamate is an exception??

Subhanallah your taqqiyah is landing you I deep trouble friend

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1. Hold up. So what you're saying is that rejecting any usul is kufr BUT Imamate is an exception??

Subhanallah your taqqiyah is landing you I deep trouble friend

 

 

(1) I asked and Actually Your Misunderstanding between Our Foundations and your. No matter what Foundations they are, to be Entitled with "Muslim" is to Have faith in Allah and the prophet peace be upon him, but to me an Actual practicing Muslim is to Do the Criteria you are Obligated to do.

(2) Please stop Insulting me by saying I am doing Taqiya. Brother its a Shame if you compare my posts to yours any one can see who is being Idiotic. And No I am not doing Taqiya I gave an Answer At Page 27 and you did not Reply to the first and second Paragraph.

 

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(1) I asked and Actually Your Misunderstanding between Our Foundations and your. No matter what Foundations they are, to be Entitled with "Muslim" is to Have faith in Allah and the prophet peace be upon him, but to me an Actual practicing Muslim is to Do the Criteria you are Obligated to do.

(2) Please stop Insulting me by saying I am doing Taqiya. Brother its a Shame if you compare my posts to yours any one can see who is being Idiotic. And No I am not doing Taqiya I gave an Answer At Page 27 and you did not Reply to the first and second Paragraph.

See there you go again not making sense.

I can't believe that you believe that believing Allah and his apostle and carry out your "duties" but rejecting the usul is sufficient to call one a Muslim!!

Subhanallah it's time to take of the mask

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See there you go again not making sense.

I can't believe that you believe that believing Allah and his apostle and carry out your "duties" but rejecting the usul is sufficient to call one a Muslim!!

Subhanallah it's time to take of the mask

Time to take the Mask? brother I think you need to Respect your self. your making false claims and accusations That You claim that according to us your no a Muslim when you have not even proved it. To us and Our scholars you are as long as Believe the Caliphate of Imam Ali (a.s) but Rejecting the Caliphs after him is a form of Disbelief at a level. Second of all you are the one who has been Lying since the very start as you have not proven:

(1) concept of Shura.

(2) Caliphate of Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman.

(3) The justice of Muwaiyah.

(4) Nor have you proven the Identity of the Twelve Caliphs.

(5) your Idea of Imam Mahdi (which I rejected)

(6) your Rejection to the narrations of the of the Day of Ghadeer Khum ( the Appointment of Imam Ali (as).

And Much more.

(wasalam)   

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Time to take the Mask? brother I think you need to Respect your self. your making false claims and accusations That You claim that according to us your no a Muslim when you have not even proved it. To us and Our scholars you are as long as Believe the Caliphate of Imam Ali (a.s) but Rejecting the Caliphs after him is a form of Disbelief at a level. Second of all you are the one who has been Lying since the very start as you have not proven:

(1) concept of Shura.

(2) Caliphate of Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman.

(3) The justice of Muwaiyah.

(4) Nor have you proven the Identity of the Twelve Caliphs.

(5) your Idea of Imam Mahdi (which I rejected)

(6) your Rejection to the narrations of the of the Day of Ghadeer Khum ( the Appointment of Imam Ali (as).

And Much more.

(wasalam)

Subhanallah great work brother!! Don't answer just run away and change the subject!! Mashallah great tactic.... BUT IT WILL NOT WORK WITH ME!!!

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Subhanallah great work brother!! Don't answer just run away and change the subject!! Mashallah great tactic.... BUT IT WILL NOT WORK WITH ME!!!

how did I change the subject I just Answered you in the First Paragraph and then Above it I mentioned some of the Ideas you failed to prove during the Debate as you have called me by Insults. Why are you so worked up? Calm down. 

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how did I change the subject I just Answered you in the First Paragraph and then Above it I mentioned some of the Ideas you failed to prove during the Debate as you have called me by Insults. Why are you so worked up? Calm down.

Worked up?? Im not. But it's stressing when your opponent doesn't know the fact that rejecting an usul takes you outside the fold of islam

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Worked up?? Im not. But it's stressing when your opponent doesn't know the fact that rejecting an usul takes you outside the fold of islam

 

 

Not in the Case of Imamah. ( Refer Page 27# ) .And Ironic how you make claims without Actual Proof.

 

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Not in the Case of Imamah. ( Refer Page 27# ) .And Ironic how you make claims without Actual Proof.

So in simple terms what you're saying is that rejecting any other "usul" takes you outside the folds of islam except for imamah of 12 imams Edited by Just the truth

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So in simple terms what you're saying is that rejecting any other "usul" takes you outside the folds of islam except for imamah of 12 imams

 

You know very well I did not say that. Stop manipulating my sentences. Your not a Shia to Say what I believe and nor Am I a Sunni to say what you believe I made mt statement very clear. In your case, No, You would not be considered as a Kafir. Would it be fair to quote the Hanafi, Shafai Point of view in Shia? Would you like me to? I can show some of their Quotes on how they Criticize Shia. and Claim it upon you. So tell me brother, are Hanfai, maliki, Shafai?

   

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You know very well I did not say that. Stop manipulating my sentences. Your not a Shia to Say what I believe and nor Am I a Sunni to say what you believe I made mt statement very clear. In your case, No, You would not be considered as a Kafir. Would it be fair to quote the Hanafi, Shafai Point of view in Shia? Would you like me to? I can show some of their Quotes on how they Criticize Shia. and Claim it upon you. So tell me brother, are Hanfai, maliki, Shafai?

That is exactly what you're saying indirectly. The reason I'm bringing this up is not to cause trouble nor do I want you to call me a kafir.

What I want you to admit is that the reason shia scholars do not call us kafir is because we do not reject a PRECISE of the quran regarding Imamate. Look at the other precise verses for the other usul's ask yourself honestly would you call me a kafir if I rejected them verses ie; for angels, yawm al qiyamah, tawhid etc etc. Yes you would because anybody who rejects a precise verse of the quran is kafir FULL STOP. As for the unspecific verses denying them that they exist is outright kufr and the one who claims such is kafir, but as for interpretating them in a different manner this is not kufr as long as you don't interpretate them in a manner which goes against other quranic verses.

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That is exactly what you're saying indirectly. The reason I'm bringing this up is not to cause trouble nor do I want you to call me a kafir.

What I want you to admit is that the reason shia scholars do not call us kafir is because we do not reject a PRECISE of the quran regarding Imamate. Look at the other precise verses for the other usul's ask yourself honestly would you call me a kafir if I rejected them verses ie; for angels, yawm al qiyamah, tawhid etc etc. Yes you would because anybody who rejects a precise verse of the quran is kafir FULL STOP. As for the unspecific verses denying them that they exist is outright kufr and the one who claims such is kafir, but as for interpretating them in a different manner this is not kufr as long as you don't interpretate them in a manner which goes against other quranic verses.

 

 

(1) there are many Precise verses in the Quran that are very Precise about many Teachings, Pillars, Foundations of Islam. And yet today in the Muslim word we have many people who are Muslim but do not act accordingly to these precise verses and those which lead back to the Unspecific one. So you cannot call them complete Disbeliever. So in your logic every Precise verse about a certain thing an act or a Belief whom every Rejects them is a Disbeliever? In this case you exclude all Muslims from Islam due to their Sins, since it is against the Precise Commandments of Allah.

(2) you have not proven by any means the verses We mentioned about Imamah as such that are Unspecific, If you are able to provide us with Precise proof from our Well known Tafsir, I would be more than happy to take it. Other than that you have given us no Reference or source to refer on this issue that these verses are unspecific, even on your account (from your own Tafsir)  

(3) What is your School of thought? I would like to know? Maliki? Hanafi? Hanbali? Shafa'i? Since you haven't Informed us yet?

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Brother just the truth, winning and losing, suceeded or failed, victory or defeat, this is how you see this debate going. My advice to you is, leave it to the people and let them decide, rather than being judge, jury and executionar yourself, which you clearly love to be.

Bring you a translation and meaning??? How many times do you want me to put it forward to you??? Oh, you want a Shia link??? What's the point??? What next??? Are you going to accept it??? Or at least debate it??? Are you going to put up a decisive and constructive arguement??? No.

What you are going to do is, what you normally do and that is running around in circles, hopping and skipping from one place to the other, avoiding questions and comments, refusing to explain and respond etc.

Tell me what has brother Islam history not put forward to you??? The amount of material and references he has put forward to you, what has your response been??? It's all here for people to see.

You have accused me of tehreef and it is your job to prove it. Because of your accusation, i'm not guilty until i prove my self innocent. Let me mention this again, because you have accused me, now this doesn't mean i'm guilty until proven innocent.

Let me put this forward to you again, "Wa ulu amre minkum", now translation and meaning are two different things. The translation of "Wa ulul amre minkum" according to you is " And obey those who are in authority amongst you" now which words from, this part of the verse, mean obey, those and in???? Come on hot shot??? You claim to be Mr right, so stand up to your self claimed name.

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(1) there are many Precise verses in the Quran that are very Precise about many Teachings, Pillars, Foundations of Islam. And yet today in the Muslim word we have many people who are Muslim but do not act accordingly to these precise verses and those which lead back to the Unspecific one. So you cannot call them complete Disbeliever. So in your logic every Precise verse about a certain thing an act or a Belief whom every Rejects them is a Disbeliever? In this case you exclude all Muslims from Islam due to their Sins, since it is against the Precise Commandments of Allah.

(2) you have not proven by any means the verses We mentioned about Imamah as such that are Unspecific, If you are able to provide us with Precise proof from our Well known Tafsir, I would be more than happy to take it. Other than that you have given us no Reference or source to refer on this issue that these verses are unspecific, even on your account (from your own Tafsir)

(3) What is your School of thought? I would like to know? Maliki? Hanafi? Hanbali? Shafa'i? Since you haven't Informed us yet?

1. If you're implying that there are precise verses telling us to pray fast etc etc then believing in these is OBLIGATORY and rejecting BELIEF in them takes one without a shadow of a doubt outside the folds of islam.

As for not acting upon them but still BELIEVING in them then this person is a fasiq and not a kafir.

SUNNIS REJECT the imamah of the 12 imams. So stop confusing yourself.

2. When you answer me regarding WHY you call sunnis Muslims even though they according to you have still disbelieved in "precise" verse mentioning your "imams" you will then find your answer whether these verses are precise or not.

3. Irrelevant.

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1. If you're implying that there are precise verses telling us to pray fast etc etc then believing in these is OBLIGATORY and rejecting BELIEF in them takes one without a shadow of a doubt outside the folds of islam.

As for not acting upon them but still BELIEVING in them then this person is a fasiq and not a kafir.

SUNNIS REJECT the imamah of the 12 imams. So stop confusing yourself.

2. When you answer me regarding WHY you call sunnis Muslims even though they according to you have still disbelieved in "precise" verse mentioning your "imams" you will then find your answer whether these verses are precise or not.

3. Irrelevant.

 

 

 

(1) One Who does not act upon what is Obligatory is just as One who as not faith in it. So really the Difference your Implying is false, in this case you can go tell all the Muslims who are not committed to what is Obligatory that they are not of Islam. As with logic, one who does not preform a s certain act, is one who does not Acknowledge it. And therefore Rejects it. But does not Remove his Title as a Muslim.

(2) The verse of Uli al amr is very Precise as we explain what Uli al amr/Ahulbayt (as) are in this stance. Your Case cannot be taken Logically Right when We would ask who are the "Howareen" of Jesus (a.s). We all know who they were And yet they are not referred to by name but by one group as a whole (the 12 Successor of Jesus Peace be upon him) and the 12 Caliphs of Israel who are appointed by Allah, they in the Quran are referred as "Naqeeban", which we would surely know they are Caliphs.

(3) no Rejection of proof what so ever Regarding the verse and the 12 Successors of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

 

 

 

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-8  (post 188#) - No refutation to the hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-5  (post 108#) - No refutation to the Hadiths Given so far.

http://www.shiachat....uccessor/page-9  (post 201, 203, 204, 206, 207#) -No Refutations on the Hadiths Given...)

http://www.shiachat....-is-obligatory/  (This was post was made for you long time ago ) Yet I received no Replies.

http://www.shiachat....-of-12-caliphs/  ( page 2,3 and 4 ) -No Refutation to the Hadiths given so far.

and more as I cannot Locate them All.  Please the Dialogue.

 

(4) Why irreverent? You know my School of thought? So why are you hiding yours? Do you not want me to show your Scholars opinions on the Shia? And Their Reasons to do so? and the belief that you must believe that Abu bakr is the Caliph or ells you would be a total disbeliever?

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Brother just the truth, winning and losing, suceeded or failed, victory or defeat, this is how you see this debate going. My advice to you is, leave it to the people and let them decide, rather than being judge, jury and executionar yourself, which you clearly love to be.

Bring you a translation and meaning??? How many times do you want me to put it forward to you??? Oh, you want a Shia link??? What's the point??? What next??? Are you going to accept it??? Or at least debate it??? Are you going to put up a decisive and constructive arguement??? No.

What you are going to do is, what you normally do and that is running around in circles, hopping and skipping from one place to the other, avoiding questions and comments, refusing to explain and respond etc.

Tell me what has brother Islam history not put forward to you??? The amount of material and references he has put forward to you, what has your response been??? It's all here for people to see.

You have accused me of tehreef and it is your job to prove it. Because of your accusation, i'm not guilty until i prove my self innocent. Let me mention this again, because you have accused me, now this doesn't mean i'm guilty until proven innocent.

Let me put this forward to you again, "Wa ulu amre minkum", now translation and meaning are two different things. The translation of "Wa ulul amre minkum" according to you is " And obey those who are in authority amongst you" now which words from, this part of the verse, mean obey, those and in???? Come on hot shot??? You claim to be Mr right, so stand up to your self claimed name.

Subhanallah.

Now you've made matters EVEN worse for yourself.

Where on earth in any sunni translation does it's say "obey" in wa ulul amre minkum

Come on hot shot tell me.. YOURE REPRESENTING.

Secondly I don't understand your problem with the word " those"?? It's in shia translation to.

As for the word "in" then there is still nothing wrong with saying this because I've given you shia reference as to where they have also used the words "those in" so stop ignoring and start reading friend.

WHY ARE YOU NOT BRINGING A TRANSLATION AND TAFSIR?? To prove your stance on "FEE SHAYIN" which according to you means in anything WITHIN THIS, but to the rest of us means IN ANYTHING.

BRING ME A TRANSLATION AND TAFSIR TO PROVE YOUR CLAIMS

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Subhanallah.

Now you've made matters EVEN worse for yourself.

Where on earth in any sunni translation does it's say "obey" in wa ulul amre minkum

Come on hot shot tell me.. YOURE REPRESENTING.

Secondly I don't understand your problem with the word " those"?? It's in shia translation to.

As for the word "in" then there is still nothing wrong with saying this because I've given you shia reference as to where they have also used the words "those in" so stop ignoring and start reading friend.

WHY ARE YOU NOT BRINGING A TRANSLATION AND TAFSIR?? To prove your stance on "FEE SHAYIN" which according to you means in anything WITHIN THIS, but to the rest of us means IN ANYTHING.

BRING ME A TRANSLATION AND TAFSIR TO PROVE YOUR CLAIMS

 

 

Wali amr minkom is (wali al amr) : "Those in Authority amongst you" Which also can be said "Wali almr minkom" is if you translate it, Its Quiet  the same "from you" and "Amongst you". here we find the Definition of Wali cannot be Ally or Friend or any of that. We proved earlier its Mastership.    

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Now you have made matters even worse for yourself??? Really??? You sound like a clown. Are you serious??? Are you for real??? Take a look at yourself and how you sound.

Ok, translate "Wa ulul amre minkum" for me.

You said "where on earth, in any Sunni translation, does it say (obey) in Wa ulul amre minkum" Ok translate this part of the verse for me, before you decide to crawl off this site again.

I have to say this that your translations and meanings, about various Ayaath, are based on wordly will, wish and desires. You just love to twist and turn, the translation and meaning of various Ayaath, just to suit, justify and give seal of approval, to ceratin incidents and events, to gain self satisfaction and comfort.

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YOU SAID

One Who does not act upon what is Obligatory is just as One who as not faith in it.

MY ANSWER

You what?? Seriously bro go and learn basic islam. This is not true. REJECTING takes you out of islam but say for eg; out of laziness you don't pray salah then you are a faasiq and only become a kaafir if you REJECT salah ie; say that you don't have to pray it or you say salah does not exist in islam.

Please go and learn basic islam before commenting.

YOU SAID

So really the Difference your Implying is false

MY ANSWER

NO... The difference YOU'RE IMPLYING IS FALSE

YOU SAID

in this case you can go tell all the Muslims who are not committed to what is Obligatory that they are not of Islam

MY ANSWER

ERRR.... NO. You can take these words back because what you are speaking genius is a load of baseless none sense

YOU SAID

As with logic, one who does not preform a s certain act, is one who does not Acknowledge it.

MY ANSWER

AHHHHH.... Man. "As with logic".

What logic is that then?? If you do not act upon a certain act this does NOT mean you don't acknowledge it. Please try to talk sense.

YOU SAID

And therefore Rejects it. But does not Remove his Title as a Muslim.

MY ANSWER

No. Your theory is messed up. If somebody rejects an usul or furu then they are definately outside the folds of islam.

2. First sort your head out regarding point 1 then answer point two again.

3.

YOU SAID

(3) no Rejection of proof what so ever Regarding the verse and the 12 Successors of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

MY ANSWER

You're having a laugh right?? The hadith says QURAISH and not restricted to AHLE BAYT although AHLE BAYT are from QURAISH so were our caliphs.

Secondly we do not believe our caliphs were appointed. We do not believe in any imam who will go into occultation.

ANYWAY STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT WITH POINT 3. I ASKED YOU TO TELL ME WHY YOU CALL SUNNIS MUSLIMS ALTHOUGH THEY REJECT AN USUL.

4. We are discussing imamah so explain yourself instead of trying to carry out a counter attack. Personally I call that running away.

Now you have made matters even worse for yourself??? Really??? You sound like a clown. Are you serious??? Are you for real??? Take a look at yourself and how you sound.

Ok, translate "Wa ulul amre minkum" for me.

You said "where on earth, in any Sunni translation, does it say (obey) in Wa ulul amre minkum" Ok translate this part of the verse for me, before you decide to crawl off this site again.

I have to say this that your translations and meanings, about various Ayaath, are based on wordly will, wish and desires. You just love to twist and turn, the translation and meaning of various Ayaath, just to suit, justify and give seal of approval, to ceratin incidents and events, to gain self satisfaction and comfort.

Lol... You too funny. " clown" and "crawl away from this site" you give me these insults then claim that you're trying to show everyone how "sarcastic" I am.. You make me laugh.

Read the answer brother ISLAMIC history has given which proves what I've been saying. Look at ISLAMIC history previous reply regarding the words "those" and "in".

Now stop running in circles stop ducking and diving and bring proof for the below.

1. Where in sunni translation it says "obey"

2. Since you're so against the word "those" bring me a translation which does not have the word " those" in it.

3. Bring me a translation and tafsir to prove your stance on fee shayin.

Wali amr minkom is (wali al amr) : "Those in Authority amongst you" Which also can be said "Wali almr minkom" is if you translate it, Its Quiet the same "from you" and "Amongst you". here we find the Definition of Wali cannot be Ally or Friend or any of that. We proved earlier its Mastership.

Still doesn't change the fact that wali means friend ally Edited by Just the truth

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Statement: 

You what?? Seriously bro go and learn basic islam. This is not true. REJECTING takes you out of islam but say for eg; out of laziness you don't pray salah then you are a faasiq and only become a kaafir if you REJECT salah ie; say that you don't have to pray it or you say salah does not exist in islam.

 

(1) there is a Difference between fasiq and Kafir. 
​(2) That does not take you out of the Identityof being a Muslim.
(3) your Justification In all the Muslims when Rejecting one Precise verse it false, since there are many sects who have their own Interpretation and to your sect it would be a Rejection since to you theirs is False and is against the Origin of the verse that you Interpret.   

 

 
Statement:
Please go and learn basic islam before commenting. 
 
(1) respect others.
(2) learn proper Arabic.

(3) get back to me, when you start making proper sense in your statements 


Statement:
NO... The difference YOU'RE IMPLYING IS FALSE
 
Which Factors am I differentiating that are false brother? 


Statement:
ERRR.... NO. You can take these words back because what you are speaking genius is a load of baseless none sense 
 
This is not a proper reply brother Clearly I said: 
 

 

 

) One Who does not act upon what is Obligatory is just as One who as not faith in it. So really the Difference your Implying is false, in this case you can go tell all the Muslims who are not committed to what is Obligatory that they are not of Islam. As with logic, one who does not preform a s certain act, is one who does not Acknowledge it. And therefore Rejects it. But does not Remove his Title as a Muslim.
To not Commit what is Obligatory is to refuse its purpose which is Rejection of its necessity, therefore against such belief. 



Statement:
AHHHHH.... Man. "As with logic".
 
And your problem is?
 
Statement:
What logic is that then?? If you do not act upon a certain act this does NOT mean you don't acknowledge it. Please try to talk sense.
 
So According to you, when we do not preform something Deliberately, we Still believe that it is Obligatory and has a purpose? This is Illogical, please use common reasoning.


Statement:
No. Your theory is messed up. If somebody rejects an usul or furu then they are definately outside the folds of islam.
 
Concerning Furu or Arkan that would be another issue and Concerning Usul I gave an Explanation which you refused to reply to:

Post 671# (
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-27 




You're having a laugh right?? The hadith says QURAISH and not restricted to AHLE BAYT although AHLE BAYT are from QURAISH so were our caliphs. Secondly we do not believe our caliphs were appointed. We do not believe in any imam who will go into occultation. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT WITH POINT 3. I ASKED YOU TO TELL ME WHY YOU CALL SUNNIS MUSLIMS ALTHOUGH THEY REJECT AN USUL.
 
(1) false and Answered in the Given previous post, and yet not Rejection what so ever.
(2) if your Caliphs are not appointed how are they the Guides of the Ummah?
(3) I am not changing anything my friend, you bring old refuted objections.
(4) this is the Typical Reply when you have nothing to say. Fascinating.   
 
Statement:
4. We are discussing imamah so explain yourself instead of trying to carry out a counter attack. Personally I call that running away. 
 
In a debate its Important to Understand the School of thoughts of others, to justify my evidence and proof. and Sadly your failing to give me one proper answer, so friend be smart and tell me what is your school of thought please. And In fact you are the one Changing the Subject and Refuting claims without Evidence.

Y
Still doesn't change the fact that wali means friend ally

 

In the verse it does not mean Wali or Allay. You must be narrow minded here. Many words even in English have Double meanings, but we Identity them from the sentence they are being used in. So please have some sense. And we proved it was Mastership and your reply was mere "No". 

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Statement:

You what?? Seriously bro go and learn basic islam. This is not true. REJECTING takes you out of islam but say for eg; out of laziness you don't pray salah then you are a faasiq and only become a kaafir if you REJECT salah ie; say that you don't have to pray it or you say salah does not exist in islam.

(1) there is a Difference between fasiq and Kafir.

​(2) That does not take you out of the Identityof being a Muslim.

(3) your Justification In all the Muslims when Rejecting one Precise verse it false, since there are many sects who have their own Interpretation and to your sect it would be a Rejection since to you theirs is False and is against the Origin of the verse that you Interpret.

Statement:

Please go and learn basic islam before commenting.

(1) respect others.

(2) learn proper Arabic.

(3) get back to me, when you start making proper sense in your statements

Statement:

NO... The difference YOU'RE IMPLYING IS FALSE

Which Factors am I differentiating that are false brother?

Statement:

ERRR.... NO. You can take these words back because what you are speaking genius is a load of baseless none sense

This is not a proper reply brother Clearly I said:

To not Commit what is Obligatory is to refuse its purpose which is Rejection of its necessity, therefore against such belief.

Statement:

AHHHHH.... Man. "As with logic".

And your problem is?

Statement:

What logic is that then?? If you do not act upon a certain act this does NOT mean you don't acknowledge it. Please try to talk sense.

So According to you, when we do not preform something Deliberately, we Still believe that it is Obligatory and has a purpose? This is Illogical, please use common reasoning.

Statement:

No. Your theory is messed up. If somebody rejects an usul or furu then they are definately outside the folds of islam.

Concerning Furu or Arkan that would be another issue and Concerning Usul I gave an Explanation which you refused to reply to:

Post 671# (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-27

You're having a laugh right?? The hadith says QURAISH and not restricted to AHLE BAYT although AHLE BAYT are from QURAISH so were our caliphs. Secondly we do not believe our caliphs were appointed. We do not believe in any imam who will go into occultation. STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT WITH POINT 3. I ASKED YOU TO TELL ME WHY YOU CALL SUNNIS MUSLIMS ALTHOUGH THEY REJECT AN USUL.

(1) false and Answered in the Given previous post, and yet not Rejection what so ever.

(2) if your Caliphs are not appointed how are they the Guides of the Ummah?

(3) I am not changing anything my friend, you bring old refuted objections.

(4) this is the Typical Reply when you have nothing to say. Fascinating.

Statement:

4. We are discussing imamah so explain yourself instead of trying to carry out a counter attack. Personally I call that running away.

In a debate its Important to Understand the School of thoughts of others, to justify my evidence and proof. and Sadly your failing to give me one proper answer, so friend be smart and tell me what is your school of thought please. And In fact you are the one Changing the Subject and Refuting claims without Evidence.

In the verse it does not mean Wali or Allay. You must be narrow minded here. Many words even in English have Double meanings, but we Identity them from the sentence they are being used in. So please have some sense. And we proved it was Mastership and your reply was mere "No".

ISLAMIC history I don't have time to play your silly baseless games so I will get straight to the point.

Tell me if somebody rejects beliefs in angels is he a "Muslim" reject as in totally reject like SUNNIS reject the concept of imamah. We reject Allah (swt) appointed imams we reject your imamah.

don't come here telling me to learn "Arabic" when you don't know basic islam my friend. This is a baseless and a desperate accusation.

The "reply" you gave which I actually DID reply to makes zero sense friend.

Usul is an usul.

Our caliphs were guides just like your "ayatollah's are. Are your ayatollah's appointed?? NO.

What "fascinates" me more than anything is the fact that deep down you know rejecting an usul makes one a kafir. It since you're doing taqqiyah you can't say anything to me!!! Oh well..

Wali means many things. SO GET OVER IT.

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Statement:

ISLAMIC history I don't have time to play your silly baseless games so I will get straight to the point.

 

And this is how you Ignore us every single time. Not very Fancy, but merely Would One care.


Statement:

Tell me if somebody rejects beliefs in angels is he a "Muslim" reject as in totally reject like SUNNIS reject the concept of imamah. We reject Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì appointed imams we reject your imamah.

 

You cannot Disbelief in Angles as it is part of knowing that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him Received revelations and Commandments thought Gabrial (a.s) so such a Situation would not really come into or Exist in the first place, never heard of a School of thought, that has such beliefs, unless you can mention to us some. Your Foundations are not ours and nor ours is your, what we Include in it is are those of who become a follower of Ahlulbayt (a.s), so there is a Major Difference, to become a follower of Ahlulbayt you would need to have faith and Understanding in Imamah and to be Knowledgeable about it. but to become a mere Muslim is to have faith and understanding some of the Foundations, That is the difference between a Mere Muslim and those who are Faithful, as there are levels of belief, there are also levels of Disbelief.   

 

 

 

Statement:

don't come here telling me to learn "Arabic" when you don't know basic islam my friend. This is a baseless and a desperate accusation.

 

Very rude if I would not tell you that you would not know what Basic Islam is. You dear have no Evidence of your own beliefs and have failed to give them the Stance of To rise above what we have provided. Also I was not Kidding with you. You really should learn Arabic since you have no understanding if the context we are trying to Prove to you, as you have not refuted any of it. So knowing Arabic is Crucial when understanding the verses. 

 

 

Statement:

The "reply" you gave which I actually DID reply to makes zero sense friend.

 

(1) Not really, you made no Quotations of my statements and Ignored the Criteria I included.

 

And your reply yo mine was:

 

 

 

Stop running around in circles my dear. An usul is an usul FULLSTOP.

So dear brother you in the state of Denial-ism.  So don't claim that you have made a Response when you haven't

 

(2) if your Referring to the Narrations of Imamah. You have Rejected non so far, and have not proven your Caliphs, with no stance whatsoever.

 

Statement:

Our caliphs were guides just like your "ayatollah's are. Are your ayatollah's appointed?? NO. 

 

(1) your Caliphs Are not guides. They were not appointed nor chosen By Allah and his Prophet (pbuh).
(2) Our Ayatollahs are Scholars in Jurisprudence. Don't make a false analogy. The Readers are not blind.  

 

 

Statement:

What "fascinates" me more than anything is the fact that deep down you know rejecting an usul makes one a kafir. It since you're doing taqqiyah you can't say anything to me!!! Oh well..

 

your making Laugh at your behavior here. The Typical Excuses you people have is "your doing Taqiyah" brother go learn what TAqiyah is. And stop Ignoring Facts that are Authentic and proven. And Learn to Respect others During a debate, really we are mature and not barbaric. And one what bases I can't say anything to you? I am Constantly Proving to you Fact after fact. 
 

 

Statement:

Wali means many things. SO GET OVER IT. 

 

As we said:

 

 

 

In the verse it does not mean Wali or Allay. You must be narrow minded here. Many words even in English have Double meanings, but we Identity them from the sentence they are being used in. So please have some sense. And we proved it was Mastership and your reply was mere "No". 

 

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JustTheTruth Please stop giving me Excuses and tell what School of thought you follow thank you. Which Scholar do you Recognize? Or do you reject the four schools of thought in your sect?

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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