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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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For example, the Quran state the unjust would not be made leaders. At other times, it talks about God making leaders who call to the fire like the Pharaoh. 

 

 

Correction:

 

The arabic word for "leaders" there is Imam in that verse and it is what God said. God appoints true Imams.

 

Nowhere it says that God made them Imam who invite to the fire. Thus, these are man made fake and unGodly "Imams".

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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SORRY THIS POST IS TO AMEEN

Salams my dear brother. So by reading your post I see you have said that by reading the kalimah one is a Muslim, which is totally true, BUT my dear brother let me ask you this one question.

If I reject salah, I'm not saying dont pray it I'm saying totally reject it then am I still Muslim?

Your point you made between momin and Muslim makes no real sense in the debate we are having.

Now if a person is momin by accepting Imamate (usul ad din) and only a Muslim by rejecting imamat (usul adin) then isn't it fair by using your logic to say a person who prays salah is a momin but a person who rejects salah is Muslim??

When I say reject salah I mean totally reject it like we SUNNIS reject Imamate totally in every kind of way.

A person who does not pray salah out of some lame excuseis a Muslim BUT a person who totally rejects salah is a kafir, right?? And we SUNNIS reject the concept of Infalliables coming after prophey(pbuh) which is usul ad din.

Why different rules for one and a different rule for another??

 

 

Yes, I agree, and I did not disagree with you there brother, but Salah is a Pillar and not Uso'ul.

Usoul al deen:

 

1. Tawheed.(oneness)

2. Al Adl (justice)

3. Nuwbuwa (prophethood)

4. Imamah (leadership) (for us)

5. Youm Al Qiyama (Day of judgement).

 

And when we have look at the Pillars of Islam which are:

 

1) Faith

2) Prayer

3) Zakar

3) Fast

5) and Pillagrimaige 

 

Now these are the Five Pillars which make "You" A Muslim, so when one says "There is no God but God And Muhammad Prophet (pbuh) is his messenger"

They are Ordered to follow these Five pillars which "makes" them a General Good Muslim. But If one even by doing the 5 Pillars but rejecting Usool al deen,

you cannot be Considered as a Mo'omen, since you only have Four Usool which are the most Crucial, And Nubuwa (prophethood) which is one of them, then by believing In Nuwbuwa you must believe In Imamah and Sunni & Shia believe In Imamah, but we according our logic is religion and History and Ahadith, that Imamah is part of Usool al deen, and to you its not, All In All we both believe Imamah as in Khilafa is a "MUST" for the Islamic Ummah. So where do we depart?

Well Ahlul-sunnah say: Abu Bakr is the Imam (khalifa, leader) which was done in Saqifa by pen and paper, and We Shia (Followers of Ahlulbayt (s)) believe,

that Imam Ali (s) is the Imam (khalifa), according to both Sunni and Shia Traditions.

        

 

 

 

Correction:

 

The arabic word for "leaders" there is Imam in that verse and it is what God said. God appoints true Imams.

 

Nowhere it says that God made them Imam who invite to the fire. Thus, these are man made fake and unGodly "Imams".

 

 

False my Dear friend. Allah has pointed them and Stated Clearly that each Ummah has An Imam (guide) and If you read the Quran, Allah has made Imams for every Nations. Please revise. And Ul'u al Amr cannot be Fallible, so how can Allah tell you to Obey someone who makes mistakes. Your reason does not make sense. 

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Yes, I agree, and I did not disagree with you there brother, but Salah is a Pillar and not Uso'ul.

Usoul al deen:

1. Tawheed.(oneness)

2. Al Adl (justice)

3. Nuwbuwa (prophethood)

4. Imamah (leadership) (for us)

5. Youm Al Qiyama (Day of judgement).

And when we have look at the Pillars of Islam which are:

1) Faith

2) Prayer

3) Zakar

3) Fast

5) and Pillagrimaige

Now these are the Five Pillars which make "You" A Muslim, so when one says "There is no God but God And Muhammad Prophet (pbuh) is his messenger"

They are Ordered to follow these Five pillars which "makes" them a General Good Muslim. But If one even by doing the 5 Pillars but rejecting Usool al deen,

you cannot be Considered as a Mo'omen, since you only have Four Usool which are the most Crucial, And Nubuwa (prophethood) which is one of them, then by believing In Nuwbuwa you must believe In Imamah and Sunni & Shia believe In Imamah, but we according our logic is religion and History and Ahadith, that Imamah is part of Usool al deen, and to you its not, All In All we both believe Imamah as in Khilafa is a "MUST" for the Islamic Ummah. So where do we depart?

Well Ahlul-sunnah say: Abu Bakr is the Imam (khalifa, leader) which was done in Saqifa by pen and paper, and We Shia (Followers of Ahlulbayt (s)) believe,

that Imam Ali (s) is the Imam (khalifa), according to both Sunni and Shia Traditions.

False my Dear friend. Allah has pointed them and Stated Clearly that each Ummah has An Imam (guide) and If you read the Quran, Allah has made Imams for every Nations. Please revise. And Ul'u al Amr cannot be Fallible, so how can Allah tell you to Obey someone who makes mistakes. Your reason does not make sense.

I will reply to you in four hours when I finish work, I will also reply to you regarding your answer to darth vader

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Yes, I agree, and I did not disagree with you there brother, but Salah is a Pillar and not Uso'ul.

Usoul al deen:

1. Tawheed.(oneness)

2. Al Adl (justice)

3. Nuwbuwa (prophethood)

4. Imamah (leadership) (for us)

5. Youm Al Qiyama (Day of judgement).

And when we have look at the Pillars of Islam which are:

1) Faith

2) Prayer

3) Zakar

3) Fast

5) and Pillagrimaige

Now these are the Five Pillars which make "You" A Muslim, so when one says "There is no God but God And Muhammad Prophet (pbuh) is his messenger"

They are Ordered to follow these Five pillars which "makes" them a General Good Muslim. But If one even by doing the 5 Pillars but rejecting Usool al deen,

you cannot be Considered as a Mo'omen, since you only have Four Usool which are the most Crucial, And Nubuwa (prophethood) which is one of them, then by believing In Nuwbuwa you must believe In Imamah and Sunni & Shia believe In Imamah, but we according our logic is religion and History and Ahadith, that Imamah is part of Usool al deen, and to you its not, All In All we both believe Imamah as in Khilafa is a "MUST" for the Islamic Ummah. So where do we depart?

Well Ahlul-sunnah say: Abu Bakr is the Imam (khalifa, leader) which was done in Saqifa by pen and paper, and We Shia (Followers of Ahlulbayt (s)) believe,

that Imam Ali (s) is the Imam (khalifa), according to both Sunni and Shia Traditions.

False my Dear friend. Allah has pointed them and Stated Clearly that each Ummah has An Imam (guide) and If you read the Quran, Allah has made Imams for every Nations. Please revise. And Ul'u al Amr cannot be Fallible, so how can Allah tell you to Obey someone who makes mistakes. Your reason does not make sense.

My dear brother you're seriously missing my point here. I used salah as an example.

ehat ive gayhered from your answer is this;

once you believe in kalimah thats it youre a mudlim even though you reject an usul ad in ( imamate) but to save time answer this;

If I reject yawm al qiyamah just like I reject imamat will I be Muslim??

If no then why am I a Muslim for rejecting imamat and not a Muslim for rejecting yawm al qiyamah??

They are both USUL AD DIN.

Regarding your answer that each nation will have a guide then you are wrong because who is our guide??

Who is guiding us?? If there was a guide then the ayatollahs in Iran wouldn't have had to do a shura to select a guide!!

Regarding ulil amr then here is your answer;

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Firstly this verse is not precise as the ulil amr can be anyone. Army leader etc. it does not say that the ulil amr will come after the prophet(pbuh).

Also if you look into the second part of the verse;

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

When Allah says "if you disagree over anything" who is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talking about?? Disagree with who??

Allah?

Messenger?

Or ulil amr?

I think as you and me know here Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about disagreeing with ulil amr.

So when shia argue that ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet this is not true, because we are not allowed to disagree with the prophet as he is appointed by Allah.

On the other hand "if we disagree" with ulil amr refer it to Allah and messenger. In other words quran and hadith.

My question to you is that if we differ with ulil amr and then have to refer it back to Allah swt and messenger then why can't a falliable to such a thing.

What is the point of having an appointed infalliable imam if we have to go back to square one and refer it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger ??

Why can't we refer an falliable leader back to quran and hadith?? ... And if he refuses to rectify himself then he should be fought like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought and was backed by abu hanifah.

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Salaam brother (just the truth). Lets get straight to your questions and points. If one rejects salah (prayers) then, would one still remain a Muslim? Well brother it depends on what you actually mean by rejection. Let me break it down to you in simple terms and discuss this in more detail.

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if you mean by rejection that one prays (salah) occasionally and not on a regular basis then, one hasn't thrown themselves out of the fold of Islam. Yes one still is a Muslim but will be a sinner (gunegar in Urdu) because prayers (salah) in Islam is compulsory (wajib).

If you mean by rejection that one doesn't pray (salah) at all or was has never prayed in their life or one is not in the habbit of praying then, one still hasn't thrown themselves out of the fold of Islam. Yes one still remains a Muslim but this would be a major sin or shall we say a constant sin (gunah-jaria) and one will be questioned and punished accordingly.

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If you mean by rejection that one doesn't consider prayers (salah) to be a part of their belief and faith, one doesn't consider prayers to be compulsory (wajib) within Islam or one believes that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't introduce prayers and made it obligatory on the Muslims then, obviously one has thrown themselves straight out of the fold of Islam. Then one would be considered as a kafir because the definition of a kafir is someone who rejects Islam or any part or piece of Islam. Hope that this answers your first question.

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O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

 

Did you read my reply on Ahlulbayt (s)? I have explained earlier, that the Prophet (S) Left Ahlulbayt (s) in His position, and I showed you many narration of the Authentic Hadith of the Two Weighy things. Its clear that the prophet (s) left two Khalifas, 1) Ahlulbayt and 2) the Book of Allah Quran. I not have only proved this, but also proved:

1) uli Al Amr are the Ahlulbayt (s)

2) Imamate you must believe in.

3) The prophet (s) After his passing he left 2 Weighty things in his position.

So Refer back To Ahlulbayt (s) and the Quran. 

If You Doubt in Ahlulbayt (s), Mind telling me how can we refer back to the prophet (s) at the moment?

Who is guiding us right now? Simple. Imam Mahdi (s), and I explained this in a post which you never replied to.

​Considering your point about about Rejecting Imamate, You cannot, becuase both Sunni and Shia must believe,

In the Khalifas in your Case. If not Perhaps you should go to a Sunnah Forum and ask what happens id you

reject Abu bakr ad the rest if the Khailfas.

Other than that your making the same Question over and over.

    

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If you mean by rejection that one doesn't consider prayers (salah) to be a part of their belief and faith, one doesn't consider prayers to be compulsory (wajib) within Islam or one believes that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't introduce prayers and made it obligatory on the Muslims then, obviously one has thrown themselves straight out of the fold of Islam. Then one would be considered as a kafir because the definition of a kafir is someone who rejects Islam or any part or piece of Islam. Hope that this answers your first question.

Assalmu alaykum now my dear brother we are getting somewhere. So you agree that be rejecting and when I say rejecting I mean totally rejecting and saying something is not usul ad din and that usul ad din has nothing to do with islam.

So we both agree that rejecting any usul ad din or furu ad din takes one out of the folds of islam, right?

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Did you read my reply on Ahlulbayt (s)? I have explained earlier, that the Prophet (S) Left Ahlulbayt (s) in His position, and I showed you many narration of the Authentic Hadith of the Two Weighy things. Its clear that the prophet (s) left two Khalifas, 1) Ahlulbayt and 2) the Book of Allah Quran. I not have only proved this, but also proved:

1) uli Al Amr are the Ahlulbayt (s)

2) Imamate you must believe in.

3) The prophet (s) After his passing he left 2 Weighty things in his position.

So Refer back To Ahlulbayt (s) and the Quran.

If You Doubt in Ahlulbayt (s), Mind telling me how can we refer back to the prophet (s) at the moment?

Who is guiding us right now? Simple. Imam Mahdi (s), and I explained this in a post which you never replied to.

​Considering your point about about Rejecting Imamate, You cannot, becuase both Sunni and Shia must believe,

In the Khalifas in your Case. If not Perhaps you should go to a Sunnah Forum and ask what happens id you

reject Abu bakr ad the rest if the Khailfas.

Other than that your making the same Question over and over.

1. No you haven't proven that AHLE BAYT are ulil amr all you said was that you shia believe it, so no I'm sorry but that's not "proof" but rather your opinion.

2.

YOU SAID

Imamate you must believe in

MY ANSWER

Exactly my point my dear brother. So I you must believe in it because it is usul ad din then how are sunni Muslims??

3.

YOU SAID

The prophet (s) After his passing he left 2 Weighty things in his position.

MY ANSWER

Firstly you have misinterpreted the hadith secondly I've asked you the same question a million times yet you don't answer;

HOW CAN YOU PROVE THAT ONLY YOUR IMAMS ARE AHLE BAYT AND NOT ANY OTHER IMAMS ARE AHLE BAYT FROM OTHER SECTS OF SHIA ISLAM. THEY LIKE YOU ALSO CLAIM THAT THEIR IMAMS ARE AHLE BAYT??

4.

YOU SAID

So refer to ahle bayt and quran

MY ANSWER

Firstly that's back to front it's first quran then prophet there is no mention of AHLE BAYT in verse 4:5. Even lets say for stgent sake ulil amr are AHLE BAYT THEN THE VERSE CLEARLY SAYS:

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the MESSENGER if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

So refer to Allah and messenger NOT Allah AND ULIL AMR

So stop adding your own boys into the quran.

5.

YOU SAID:

If You Doubt in Ahlulbayt (s), Mind telling me how can we refer back to the prophet (s) at the moment?

MY ANSWER

Actually you're asking the wrong question here the real question is:

HOW CAN WE REFER IT TO AHLE BAYT??

6.

YOU SAID:

Who is guiding us right now? Simple. Imam Mahdi (s), and I explained this in a post which you never replied to.

MY ANSWER

Excuse me..... I never replied?? Hold your horses bro but I'm sure if the dear viewers of this forum scroll back a few posts they will see how I answered you but you never answered me. My answer was:

How is imam mahdi leading us??

If we were being lead by imam mahdi why would the ayatollahs in Iran need to do a shura and select their own leader???????

If imam mahdi is "leading" us then why select a leader of your own??

The whole purpose of a guide is to guide us so if imam mahdi is our guide how is he guiding us??

If we have been left without an imam then what's the difference between sunni and shia now?? We all ended up on the same place at the end didn't we??? We have to refer to quran and hadith.

7.

YOU SAID

​Considering your point about about Rejecting Imamate, You cannot, becuase both Sunni and Shia must believe,

In the Khalifas in your Case. If not Perhaps you should go to a Sunnah Forum and ask what happens id you

reject Abu bakr ad the rest if the Khailfas.

MY ANSWER.

You are obviously seriously confused my dear brother because no SUNNIS don't believe in the concept of Imamate ie; divinely appointed infalliables after prophet (pbuh). SUNNIS believe in worldly caliphs who are neither "appointed" nor are they "infallible".

I'm sorry dear brother but maybe you've been visiting those wahabbi forums where they have exaggerated the status of sahaba.

But the real belief of AHLE sunnah is that caliphate in a neither usul ad din nor is it furu ad din so if one REJECTS our caliphs they are still Muslims because we call shia Muslims even though they reject our caliphs because it is not usul or furu ad din to believe in our caliphs.

Maybe you should stop visiting those wahabbi fors and please don't confuse us with the wahabbis.

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Assalamu alaykum AMEEN

Firsrly I would like to thank you for attempting to answering my questions may Allah bless you and guide you. Ameen.

Brother firstly you need to understand that I'm not asking for names of your imams in the quran nor am I asking for a specific number as to how many imams there will be.

There is something by brother you need to understand is and that is that when someone claims that such a such thing is usul ad din in islam then the first thing you would do is put forward this challenge to them:

Surah 3:7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So as you can see at the start of this verse the two words in block capital have to be met otherwise that usul ad din is null.

I have in recent posts in this thread pointed out PRECISE verses where we are told other usul ad dins.(foundations) precisely.

YOU SAID

The Quran is the large print and the Sunnah is the small print. Both are very much connected and need and rely on each other.

MY ANSWER

My dear brother before we jump onto the "small print" we need to meet the criteria given in the "large print" in surah 3: 7 and that is we first need to find a PRECISE verse where Allah says for eg;

After the prophet there will be imams who should follow.

This is what you call PRECISE my dear brother.

My dear brother when we talk about ulil amr we should look at he whole verse and try to understand it deeply otherwise we will go astray.

Now surah 4:59

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Firstly this verse is not precise as the ulil amr can be anyone. Army leader etc. it does not say that the ulil amr will come after the prophet(pbuh).

Also if you look into the second part of the verse;

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

When Allah says "if you disagree over anything" who is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talking about?? Disagree with who??

Allah?

Messenger?

Or ulil amr?

I think as you and me know here Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about disagreeing with ulil amr.

So when shia argue that ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet (pbuh) this is not true, because we are not allowed to disagree with the prophet (pbuh) as he is appointed by Allah.

On the other hand "if we disagree" with ulil amr refer it to Allah and messenger. In other words quran and hadith.

My question to you is that if we differ with ulil amr and then have to refer it back to Allah swt and messenger then why can't a falliable to such a thing.

What is the point of having an appointed infalliable imam if we have to go back to square one and refer it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh)??

Why can't we refer an falliable leader back to quran and hadith?? ... And if he refuses to rectify himself then he should be fought like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought and was backed by abu hanifah.

YOU SAID

Calling somebody a Kafir??? Accusing somebody of Kufar??? This is not the way of Ahle Tashee and has never been

MY ANSWER

So i take it you don't classify qadianis kafir??

Well lets be honest here bro they only rejecting finality of prophethood so are crashing head on into nubuwwah which is usul ad din. Imamat and nubuwwah are both usul ad din my dear brother according to shia.

Also what do you think your scholars would say to someone who rejected lets say..... Yawm al qiyamah??

Muslim or kafir ??

Why one rule for one usul ad din and then a different rule for another usul ad din??

Salams my dear brother.

 

Salaam brother. Yes, lets talk about the large print [Quran] first. I am again going to put two verses infront of you. 1st verse: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those who are worthy of giving orders among you". The third part of the verse is the new addition, the new principal and the new authority that has been put into place. one can dispute/discuss and talk about who this third authority is but one can't argue on the third authority being in the sequence, being put in place. One can't argue on the fact that there is no third supreme authority that has been put in place, apart from Allah and his Messenger.

 

Now you mentioned about the next part of this verse: "And if you disagree over anything", Excuse me??? "Disagree over anything"??? Disagree with whom and over what??? I thought the command was to obey the [ulul Amre] just as you have to obey Allah and his Messenger. If obeying the first two supreme authorities [Allah and his Messenger] is unconditional, then why the condition regarding the Ulul Amre and what condition??? To be continued!

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No infact you did not reply to the Topic I made for you concerning Imam Mahdi (AF)

I think there is no use in Arguing sense I mentioned the Ahadith about the 12 Imams being a part of ahlulbayt.
and proving the Authenticity of Hadith al Taqalian and Manzila.


Your know going to the same Questions and left my side comments out.

you basically want the answer you desire and not the answer which Reveals.

Therefore, Wa al salam. Nice Talking to you.

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Salaam brother. Yes, lets talk about the large print [Quran] first. I am again going to put two verses infront of you. 1st verse: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those who are worthy of giving orders among you". The third part of the verse is the new addition, the new principal and the new authority that has been put into place. one can dispute/discuss and talk about who this third authority is but one can't argue on the third authority being in the sequence, being put in place. One can't argue on the fact that there is no third supreme authority that has been put in place, apart from Allah and his Messenger.

Now you mentioned about the next part of this verse: "And if you disagree over anything", Excuse me??? "Disagree over anything"??? Disagree with whom and over what??? I thought the command was to obey the [ulul Amre] just as you have to obey Allah and his Messenger. If obeying the first two supreme authorities [Allah and his Messenger] is unconditional, then why the condition regarding the Ulul Amre and what condition??? To be continued!

Assalamu alaykum my dear brother firstly I asked you a question.

If rejecting an usul ad din takes you out of islam then why are SUNNIS not considered kafir.

Now lets my dear move to the (large) print.

Now ulil amr

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Now we read in many other verses in the quran where Allah says obey Allah and messenger and we all Muslims agree this is unconditional

But if you read the second part of the verse my dear brother Allah (swt) says "if you differ" this proves that obeying ulil amr is conditional.

Let me make this more clear my dear brother what would your view be if Allah sent a verse saying obey Allah and messenger and "if you differ" refer back to Allah??

What kind of authority would that give to the "appointed" if we have to refer it to Allah.

The whole point Allah "appoints" individuals is so they can refer everything to the "appointed".

If we had to refer everything back to Allah (swt) then this would be an

Insult to the appointed (prophet) this would undermine the "authority" of the "appointed".

Now similarly if we have to refer the ulil amr (according to shia appointed imam) back to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) then what kind of authority has he actually got??

No infact you did not reply to the Topic I made for you concerning Imam Mahdi (AF)

I think there is no use in Arguing sense I mentioned the Ahadith about the 12 Imams being a part of ahlulbayt.

and proving the Authenticity of Hadith al Taqalian and Manzila.

Your know going to the same Questions and left my side comments out.

you basically want the answer you desire and not the answer which Reveals.

Therefore, Wa al salam. Nice Talking to you.

Assalamu alaykum

My dear brother you still haven't answered can prophets make minor mistakes yes or no??

Secondly if you go back to the posts you will see I answered all your questions but you want to make me look like I'm dodging your questions.

My dear brother you spoke about hadith manzilah and I answered you twice with the same answer which you totally ignored.

You bought forward quranic verses talking about the appointment of harun a.s and I said you cannot use them verses for ali (a.s) because harun a.s was a temporary leader and ali a.s according to shia was PERMENANT leader.

If the quranic evidence you bought forward was talking about PERMENANT successorship then you are seriously questioning Allah's (swt) knowledge because you are indirectly saying;

The verses of harun a.s talk about PERMENANT successorship when we all know he passed away BEFORE musa a.s

So how can harun a.s be referred to in the quranic verses as a PERMENANT leader when he died BEFORE the one he was supposed to succeed???

This was my answer and you were cornered so your only answer is by accusing me of not answering you when I clearly have. As all the viewers of this forum can see.

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Assalamu alaykum my dear brother firstly I asked you a question.

If rejecting an usul ad din takes you out of islam then why are SUNNIS not considered kafir.

Now lets my dear move to the (large) print.

Now ulil amr

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Now we read in many other verses in the quran where Allah says obey Allah and messenger and we all Muslims agree this is unconditional

But if you read the second part of the verse my dear brother Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says "if you differ" this proves that obeying ulil amr is conditional.

Let me make this more clear my dear brother what would your view be if Allah sent a verse saying obey Allah and messenger and "if you differ" refer back to Allah??

What kind of authority would that give to the "appointed" if we have to refer it to Allah.

The whole point Allah "appoints" individuals is so they can refer everything to the "appointed".

If we had to refer everything back to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì then this would be an

Insult to the appointed (prophet) this would undermine the "authority" of the "appointed".

Now similarly if we have to refer the ulil amr (according to shia appointed imam) back to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh) then what kind of authority has he actually got??

Assalamu alaykum

My dear brother you still haven't answered can prophets make minor mistakes yes or no??

Secondly if you go back to the posts you will see I answered all your questions but you want to make me look like I'm dodging your questions.

My dear brother you spoke about hadith manzilah and I answered you twice with the same answer which you totally ignored.

You bought forward quranic verses talking about the appointment of harun a.s and I said you cannot use them verses for ali (a.s) because harun a.s was a temporary leader and ali a.s according to shia was PERMENANT leader.

If the quranic evidence you bought forward was talking about PERMENANT successorship then you are seriously questioning Allah's ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì knowledge because you are indirectly saying;

The verses of harun a.s talk about PERMENANT successorship when we all know he passed away BEFORE musa a.s

So how can harun a.s be referred to in the quranic verses as a PERMENANT leader when he died BEFORE the one he was supposed to succeed???

This was my answer and you were cornered so your only answer is by accusing me of not answering you when I clearly have. As all the viewers of this forum can see.

 

 

Yep here you go again to Haron and Musa. 

Sorry I can't Answer the Questions Which you made on Earlier while you did not reply to the following:

1) hadihs in Sahiheehain.

2) Imam MAhdi (A.F)

3) time lenght between jesus and Muhammad (pbuh)

4) Manzial reply.

And many more

concerning harun. Refer to the post on Appointing a successor:

between 6-7 I presume.

ohhh don't worry the Viewers will see very clearly.

 

And you have not read peshawar nights as you claim to, 

beause I gave you some answers from their and you replied as if it was just written.

No prophets cannot do mistakes

 

Wa al salam.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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Yep here you go again to Haron and Musa.

Sorry I can't Answer the Questions Which you made on Earlier while you did not reply to the following:

1) hadihs in Sahiheehain.

2) Imam MAhdi (A.F)

3) time lenght between jesus and Muhammad (pbuh)

4) Manzial reply.

And many more

concerning harun. Refer to the post on Appointing a successor:

between 6-7 I presume.

ohhh don't worry the Viewers will see very clearly.

And you have not read peshawar nights as you claim to,

beause I gave you some answers from their and you replied as if it was just written.

No prophets cannot do mistakes

Wa al salam.

I'm sorry brother but have I been talking to a brick wall for the past week or so??

1. What hadith?? What hadith?? What hadith??? You COP AND PASTED over 100 hadith in the past week or so. How am I supposed to know which hadith you talking about?? I don't read minds as a personal hobby trust me.

2. What about imam mahdi a.s?? What do you want to know?? If you mean hadith of 12 successors then I've answered to you READ ABOUT SELF FULLFILLING PROPHECT for the 100th time, god sake.

3. Oh my god, ya Allah give me strength pleeeeaaase. If you jog your memory back my dear brother I think you may remember those hadith YOU COPY AND PASTED from that book and I told you to read the preface which CLEARLY SAID THAT NOT ALL THE HADITHS CAN BE CONFIRMED AS SAHIH.

So I asked you to prove to me each and every hadith is sahih because YOUR source (the book) could not verify the hadiths.

4. Ahhhhh.... Now you're just having a laugh. Seriously for crying out loud look at my post before this one I just answered you.

5. You're referring me to "Peshawar nights" where as I'm proving to you from the quran using verse 11:73 that wives are AHLE BAYT. Before any hadith or book quran comes first.

6. Ohhhhh really.... You still adamant that prophets cannot make mistakes. Then how do you answer the verses I have you where prophet dawud a.s and Muhammad (pbuh) were rebuked????????

Just by simply saying "I do not believe prophets can make mistakes means zero you need proof like I've given you from the quran to backup your claims.

Your opinion next to the words of the quran mean ZERO my friend

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Salaam brother (just the truth). You haven't asked me just one question but many and i am answering them one by one. I can't answer them altogether because of shortage of time.

Now brother the answer to your second question, according to Ahle Tashee and the Fiqah Jaffaria school of thought, religion (Deen) has two parts. To be continied.

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Continued. Now if one doesn't accept and believe in any one of these five principals of religion (usool-e-deen), then that person is not only out of the fold of Shiaism but is also out of the fold of Islam. Let me make it more clearer, if one doesn't consider Imaamath (divine guidance) as a principal of religion (usool-e-deen) and one doesn't believe in Imaamath being direct from Allah then, yes one is straight out of the fold of Islam. To be continued.

Continued. I am not going to avoid questions and I am not going to ask questions as a response to questions, in order to avoid answering questions. Yes, there aren't and there shouldn't be double standards, two sides, hypocricy etc of any sort. The matter is crystal clear and straight from the Quran. Yes' it is straight and direct from Allah that, there is a third supreme authority, in sequence and in line with Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), the first and second main supreme authorities. There should be no doubt, what so ever, regarding the third supreme authority, put in place by Allah and introduced by the Messenger (pbuh). To be continued.

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Continued. Now if one doesn't accept and believe in any one of these five principals of religion (usool-e-deen), then that person is not only out of the fold of Shiaism but is also out of the fold of Islam. Let me make it more clearer, if one doesn't consider Imaamath (divine guidance) as a principal of religion (usool-e-deen) and one doesn't believe in Imaamath being direct from Allah then, yes one is straight out of the fold of Islam. To be continued.

Continued. I am not going to avoid questions and I am not going to ask questions as a response to questions, in order to avoid answering questions. Yes, there aren't and there shouldn't be double standards, two sides, hypocricy etc of any sort. The matter is crystal clear and straight from the Quran. Yes' it is straight and direct from Allah that, there is a third supreme authority, in sequence and in line with Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), the first and second main supreme authorities. There should be no doubt, what so ever, regarding the third supreme authority, put in place by Allah and introduced by the Messenger (pbuh). To be continued.

Sorry brother but Imamate is not an usul ad do for us SUNNIS you can ask any sunni alim this is because we are not told in the quran to follow any appointed imams after prophet.

Please answer to my answer to ulil amr directly brother

Now we read in many other verses in the quran where Allah says obey Allah and messenger and we all Muslims agree this is unconditional

But if you read the second part of the verse my dear brother Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says "if you differ" this proves that obeying ulil amr is conditional.

Let me make this more clear my dear brother what would your view be if Allah sent a verse saying obey Allah and messenger and "if you differ" refer back to Allah??

What kind of authority would that give to the "appointed" if we have to refer it to Allah.

The whole point Allah "appoints" individuals is so they can refer everything to the "appointed".

If we had to refer everything back to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì then this would be an

Insult to the appointed (prophet) this would undermine the "authority" of the "appointed".

Now similarly if we have to refer the ulil amr (according to shia appointed imam) back to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger then what kind of authority has he actually got??

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Now answer to your next question brother just the truth. Are Sunni kafir because they do not belive in Imaamath (divine guidance) as a principal of faith and do not consider it from Allah??? My dear brother the Ahle Tashee and the Fiqah Jaffaria school of thought do not believe in pointing fingers, accusing and abusing or naming and shaming. It not their way and certainly not their style. To be continued.

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Don't worry, I will answer all of your questions and I will comment on all of your points. I have my understanding and explanation of the verse containing Ulul Amre and you have yours. Now which understanding fits better and which explanation is more accurate remains to be seen and decided by the people. To be continued.

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Continued. I am going to mention a couple of points here, one step at a time. This point, which i have briefly mentioned, i am going to comment on it again, with more detail. Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) were known to the Muslims and the people of that time, when the Quran was in the period and time of when it was being revealed. Also obedience, towads Allah and his Messenger, was a well know fact for the people of that time. To be continued.

What was new on the

Continued. What was knew, on Allah's agenda, was the introduction and recognition of this new supreme authority that, Allah wanted to put into place. Why??? Because Allah did't want to leave the Muslim nation, without further divine guidance and assistance, because Allah didn't want to leave the Quran and the Sunnah, in uncapable and uncertain hands, after the demise and departure of his Messenger (pbuh). To be continued.

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Continued. Allah wanted to declare this new supreme authority, to the people of that period and time and there on. Also the sign of this new supreme authority is going to be Ul Amre and the meaning in Urdu is, sahib amar and in English is, those who are worthy of giving command/orders. Now one question arises that why didn't Allah just come straight out with it by saying "Oh people of faith, obey those who are worthy of giving command/orders among you"??? Because then one could raise questions such as, what sort of obedience towards the Ulul Amre and to what standard, level and limit should this obedience be??? To be continued.

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Allah started off by mentioning the command and order, regarding obedience towards him and his Messenger, so he could set down the standard and level and to put down the limit of obedience, he wants towards the Ulul Amre from the people. This is why Allah started off with "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those who are worthy of giving command/orders amongst you". Now Allah has made it absolutely clear, to what standard, level and limit he wants obedience towards the Ulul Amre. The sequence and order tells you that. Now brother just the truth has made a point that, obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is unconditional, where as obedience towards the Ulul Amre is conditional. How??? Where are and what are the conditions??? To be continued.

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Continued. Allah wanted to declare this new supreme authority, to the people of that period and time and there on. Also the sign of this new supreme authority is going to be Ul Amre and the meaning in Urdu is, sahib amar and in English is, those who are worthy of giving command/orders. Now one question arises that why didn't Allah just come straight out with it by saying "Oh people of faith, obey those who are worthy of giving command/orders among you"??? Because then one could raise questions such as, what sort of obedience towards the Ulul Amre and to what standard, level and limit should this obedi

ence be??? To be continued.

I've got answers and questions already but il wait till you finish

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They will be the same because you can't answer them.

If you can't handle debating with sunni on a sunni shia website maybe you should join a shia only website and all hold hands and agree and live happily ever after

Salams

 

 

Do you think debating is about who wins? you are blind.

its about seeing whats right and whats wrong.

The reason I did not continue talking to you.

is because you lack in understanding what I provided you, or did not read it at all.

your excuses are either " Theorist" or "Copy and paste"

Wa al salam

Peace be upon you.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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Do you think debating is about who wins? you are blind.

its about seeing whats right and whats wrong.

The reason I did not continue talking to you.

is because you lack in understanding what I provided you, or did not read it at all.

your excuses are either " Theorist" or "Copy and paste"

Wa al salam

Peace be upon you.

You are right it's not about winning its about what's right and wrong but no offence bro but what you provided was a load of copy and paste from books which you never even read the preface off. You randomly copy and paste without knowing what it is you're copy and pasting.

At times you pointed me to hadith on sahih Muslim which didn't even exist.

You pointed out hadith from tgat book when it clearly said on that preface of the book that the hadith in that book are not 100 percent authentic and to make matters worse you didn't even bother attempting to prove their authencity!!!!!

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Continued. Now brother just the truth mentions the next part of the verse to back his claim, "Then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and his Messenger". Quarrel or differ or disagree with whom??? Brother claims with the Ulul Amre. Now my question is if the command is to obey someone then, how could you quarrel or differ or disagree with them??? Because if you quarrel or differ or disagree with someone then, that is not obedience. Then you are not obedient towards them. To quarrel, to differ or to disagree is being disobedient. Where is the sense and logic here??? Pick up the dictionary and look up the meaning and definition of obey. The word obey means, to submit without any conditions or circumstances to commands and/or orders, to instructions and/or directions, to a set of principals, rules or regulations be it concerning religious law or law of the land. To be continued.

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Continued. Now brother just the truth mentions the next part of the verse to back his claim, "Then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and his Messenger". Quarrel or differ or disagree with whom??? Brother claims with the Ulul Amre. Now my question is if the command is to obey someone then, how could you quarrel or differ or disagree with them??? Because if you quarrel or differ or disagree with someone then, that is not obedience. Then you are not obedient towards them. To quarrel, to differ or to disagree is being disobedient. Where is the sense and logic here??? Pick up the dictionary and look up the meaning and definition of obey. The word obey means, to submit without any conditions or circumstances to commands and/or orders, to instructions and/or directions, to a set of principals, rules or regulations be it concerning religious law or law of the land. To be continued.

Exactly my point now you're making more sense how can we disagree with ulil amr(shia view as appointed imams) if they're "appointed" and sinless. So who is Allah talking about then in your view when he (swt) says "if you differ"????? Differ with who????

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Continued. You will clearly find that brother just the truth has clearly misunderstood this part of the verse "and if you quarrel about anything". Why would you quarrel, differ or disagree with the one/s who you have just been given a direct command to obey??? Allow me to clear the misunderstanding here by giving you my explanation, concerning this part of the verse and let you decide which understanding is sensible, logical and gives you a more accurate explanation. "And if you quarrel, differ or disagree on anything then refer it back to Allah and his messemger", what Allah means here is, And if you quarrel, differ or disagree, amongst yourselves, about the Ulul Amre, not with the Ulul Amre. If you fail to recognise the Ulul Amre or if someone causes a fuss, dispute or confusion about who the Ulul Amre are or if you're not sure about them then, in this case or in such a scenario refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger. To be continued.

Brother it's "if you differ about the Ulul Amre" not "if you differ with the Ulul Amre" because "if you differ with the Ulul Amre" then you are being disobedient. Then you are not following the direct command and that is to OBEY the Ulul Amre, not to quarrel, differ or disagree with them because that wouldn't be obeying now would it??? That would disobeying.

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Continued. You will clearly find that brother just the truth has clearly misunderstood this part of the verse "and if you quarrel about anything". Why would you quarrel, differ or disagree with the one/s who you have just been given a direct command to obey??? Allow me to clear the misunderstanding here by giving you my explanation, concerning this part of the verse and let you decide which understanding is sensible, logical and gives you a more accurate explanation. "And if you quarrel, differ or disagree on anything then refer it back to Allah and his messemger", what Allah means here is, And if you quarrel, differ or disagree, amongst yourselves, about the Ulul Amre, not with the Ulul Amre. If you fail to recognise the Ulul Amre or if someone causes a fuss, dispute or confusion about who the Ulul Amre are or if you're not sure about them then, in this case or in such a scenario refer the matter back to Allah and his Messenger. To be continued.

Brother it's "if you differ about the Ulul Amre" not "if you differ with the Ulul Amre" because "if you differ with the Ulul Amre" then you are being disobedient. Then you are not following the direct command and that is to OBEY the Ulul Amre, not to quarrel, differ or disagree with them because that wouldn't be obeying now would it??? That would disobeying.

I'm sorry dear AMEEN but you can't "add" your own words in. It doesn't say if you disagree who ulil amr is, it simply says if you disagree over anything.

Secondly like I said before what Kind of authority would an "appointed" have if he had to be "referred"??

What is the point of having an appointed if all he had to do was be referred.

Plus the ulil amr can be anyone army leader etc, it doesn't say he is an appointed so it fails the challenge in surah 3:7.

Whereas we have numerous verses regarding Allah saying he is one god and numerous verses where the prophet (pbuh) is referred to as the prophet (pbuh) of Allah.

But the ulil amr is mentioned once and even when he is mentioned it says refer back to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) so how can that prove that he is an "appointed".

Like I mean seriously what is the point of an "appointed" if we have to still refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) quran and hadith.

If there was one verse in the quran that fitted the criteria given in surah 3:7 then this debate wouldn't be taking place and this whole sunni shia thing wouldn't have happened.

This is why the quran is a rope from the heavens to the earth so we should hold this rope tight. When it says PRECISE verse then Allah (swt) means PRECISE verse

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Salaam brother. If you can accuse me of adding my own words then, brother i can accuse you of the same thing. So this wouldn't be sensible and it wouldn't lead any where. So lets keep the accusations out of our conversation. You respect my explanation and understanding, regarding the verse and i will respect yours, keeping our disagreement and difference in opinion in a pleasant manner. According to you Ulul Amre can be anybody. Well i respect your opinion but i strongly disagree and here is the reason why, Ulul Amre can't be anybody because Allah simply just can't associate anybody and put them in sequence, put them in line along with him and his Messenger. Allah is pure to the state of purification, so we must obey him. His Messenger (pbuh) is pure to the state of purification, so we must obey him, so the Ulul Amre must also be pure to the similar and exact state in order for us to obey, since they have been put in the same line and are in the same sequence. To be continued.

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Salaam brother. If you can accuse me of adding my own words then, brother i can accuse you of the same thing. So this wouldn't be sensible and it wouldn't lead any where. So lets keep the accusations out of our conversation. You respect my explanation and understanding, regarding the verse and i will respect yours, keeping our disagreement and difference in opinion in a pleasant manner. According to you Ulul Amre can be anybody. Well i respect your opinion but i strongly disagree and here is the reason why, Ulul Amre can't be anybody because Allah simply just can't associate anybody and put them in sequence, put them in line along with him and his Messenger. Allah is pure to the state of purification, so we must obey him. His Messenger (pbuh) is pure to the state of purification, so we must obey him, so the Ulul Amre must also be pure to the similar and exact state in order for us to obey, since they have been put in the same line and are in the same sequence. To be continued.

AMEEN

I'm sorry brother if I've offended you please forgive me my dear brother.

Now if you look at the verse it says refer it to Allah and messenger, why??

Why not refer it to ulil amr if he's infalliable like my shia brothers say. The whole reason Allah ( swt) sent infalliables (according to shia) was so that the ummah could refer to them. So my question is, what is the point of having an appointed imam if we have to refer to Allah and messenger (pbuh)?

Also if ulil amr was infallible then the verse would have made much more sense if it finished with;

Refer it to Allah his messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr, because my dear brother don't forget the whole reason the infallibles were sent was so the ummah could refer to them.

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