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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Then again imam has several different meanings

Opinons differ through different marja's anyway.

May Allah hasten the reappearance of imam zamana and relieve us followers of ahlulbayt and have all our controversies answered with the truth.

Bro just thank your lord that we're born followers of ahlulbayt and part of this school of thought... Man... Phewww الحمدالله

صلوا على محمد وآل محمد

 

Yes it is a blessing and we truly do thank Allah. May Allah guide us all onto the straight path. Concerning the Positions of prophets and Imams. Our Marajah have come to a Consensus that Imamah has Ranks and Prophethood has Ranks. ( if you look at the previous page I explained it very well ) So For short The prophet peace be upon him no doubt is the greatest of beings and of prophets because of his high rank in all human aspects, and his Successors (Caliphs) are greater then those of all the previous prophets (a.s) before Muhammad Peace be upon him. 

 

Brother Aliyul Akbar, you're right but this is where you have to look at the verse and find out which meaning fits. This is all down to sense and logic, based on reality and facts. One can't deny what comes natural. Now you said "the word Imaam has several different meanings". Now if you chose a verse, which has the word Imaam in it then, it is obvious that all the meanings will not fit in there. Only one meaning will naturaly fit in and would be suited for that particular verse.

 

 

The Irony is with Ahlul-Sunnah Translators have all different terming for the word in that verse. While we in our School of thought we have come to a Consensus of one meaning.

(Wasalam) 

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Brother Aliyul Akbar, you're right but this is where you have to look at the verse and find out which meaning fits. This is all down to sense and logic, based on reality and facts. One can't deny what comes natural. Now you said "the word Imaam has several different meanings". Now if you chose a verse, which has the word Imaam in it then, it is obvious that all the meanings will not fit in there. Only one meaning will naturaly fit in and would be suited for that particular verse.

Ok bro ameen so what i understand from you and islam hist is the duty of the imam is harder or higher than our prophets? And the verse in the quran can only mean imaam in that context?

Is this right?

If it is, can you elaborate more, because i've heard several times but i just cant get it through my head. Maybe if you show me through a different angle. I might agree..

And im asking with full intention of learning not mocking.

Thanks

Brother Aliyul Akbar, you're right but this is where you have to look at the verse and find out which meaning fits. This is all down to sense and logic, based on reality and facts. One can't deny what comes natural. Now you said "the word Imaam has several different meanings". Now if you chose a verse, which has the word Imaam in it then, it is obvious that all the meanings will not fit in there. Only one meaning will naturaly fit in and would be suited for that particular verse.

Ok bro ameen so what i understand from you and islam hist is the duty of the imam is harder or higher than our prophets? And the verse in the quran can only mean imaam in that context?

Is this right?

If it is, can you elaborate more, because i've heard several times but i just cant get it through my head. Maybe if you show me through a different angle. I might agree..

And im asking with full intention of learning not mocking.

Thanks

Bro islam history, i agree with them being greater than past prophets. But that still doesnt relate to me about prophet ibrahim a.s getting promoted to imammate when he is already a nabi .. But when i have a spare time i will be looking into previous posts.

I dont know whats goin on with my iphone and shiachat. They dont seem to get along!

I wanted to ask something completely irrelavent to this topic.

Why dont i have access to chatroom and how do i get it.?

How do i become a real member on this site where i have a little more privileges?

Very much appreciated

By the way im from sydney, Australia

Where are you guys from?

Salaam

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Ohhh! ahahah same I asked that Question before actually. Well here you need to have more than 50 posts to become an Advanced member and enter the Chatroom. You have Currently 23 posts so 27 to go :)

(wasalam)

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Brother just the truth, you have accused me of tehreef, which you are now finding it difficult to prove. My advice to you is, think and be sure before you speak and when you do then, be ready to back it up and prove it.

For your information translation and meaning are two completely different things. If you accuse me of tehreef, just because of "with in" then i have said to you and i will say it again, bring me a translation where "wa ulul amre minkum" translates "and obey those who are in authority among you" and then explain and prove to me, which words from "wa ulul amre minkum" translate obey, those and in??? Come on budy!

And let me repeat my self again "ulul amre" means "worthy of authority". The word "ulul" means "worthy" and "amre" means "authority". In Urdu this would mean "sahib-e-amre" not "hakim-e-waqth". The term "sahib-e-amre" means "some one who is worthy of authority" and the term "hakim-e-waqth" means "someone who is in authority".

AMEEN stop beating around the bush and bring me a translation with tafseer. You are not a mufassireen so stop acting like one.

Bring me a translation WITH tafsir

Edited by Just the truth

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The ISLAMIC history you have this annoying habit of running to hadith to prove an usul !! Why??

In order to prove something is an "usul"

There has to be a specific precise verse as we are told in surah 3:7 that the FOUNDATIONS are in PRECISE verses. Before replying read the link I left you on the other thread for the tafsir of surah 3:7.

Also tell me one thing. If ulil amr was a verse that was "precisely" sent for your "imams" then why would Allah (swt) refer to them as "ulil amr" and not appointed imams?? The prophet (pbuh) of Allah (swt) is called a prophet the angels are described as angels the holy books are described as books Allah (swt) is described as one god...but when it comes to your imams they are not precisely described as "imams but ulil amr?? Why?? Why didn't Allah (swt) tell us that they are appointed imams (ulil amr) so im sorry it's unspecific??

I've asked you a question from day 1 which you have not even answered till this day??

Tell me.

If Belueving in your12 imams is an USUL then how are sunni Muslims??

Also tell me if I rejected angels would I remain Muslim??

DO NOT ignore the above points answering them with answers which make sense.

Also you should know when you say prophets a.s cannot commit mistakes then my friend there are verses in the quran to refute this exaggerated belief of yours.

Let me point a few verses out for you:

38:23

to top

Sahih International

Indeed this, my brother, has ninety-nine ewes, and I have one ewe; so he said, 'Entrust her to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

38:24

to top

Sahih International

[David] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that WE HAD TRIED HIM, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and TURNED IN REPENTANCE [to Allah ].

38:25

to top

Sahih International

So WE FORGAVE HIM THAT; and indeed, for him is nearness to Us and a good place of return.

So read the above verses. Dawud a.s committed a mistake and then repented then Allah ( swt) forgave him.

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! VERILY, I HAVE WRONGED MYSELF, SO FORGIVE ME THEN HE FORGAVE HIM verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

So look at the above verse. Musa a.s committed a mistake by killing someone but Allah (swt) forgave him.

Edited by Just the truth

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The ISLAMIC history you have this annoying habit of running to hadith to prove an usul !! Why??

In order to prove something is an "usul"

There has to be a specific precise verse as we are told in surah 3:7 that the FOUNDATIONS are in PRECISE verses. Before replying read the link I left you on the other thread for the tafsir of surah 3:7.

Also tell me one thing. If ulil amr was a verse that was "precisely" sent for your "imams" then why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì refer to them as "ulil amr" and not appointed imams?? The prophet (pbuh) of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is called a prophet the angels are described as angels the holy books are described as books Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is described as one god...but when it comes to your imams they are not precisely described as "imams but ulil amr?? Why?? Why didn't Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tell us that they are appointed imams (ulil amr) so im sorry it's unspecific??

I've asked you a question from day 1 which you have not even answered till this day??

Tell me.

If Belueving in your12 imams is an USUL then how are sunni Muslims??

Also tell me if I rejected angels would I remain Muslim??

DO NOT ignore the above points answering them with answers which make sense.

Also you should know when you say prophets a.s cannot commit mistakes then my friend there are verses in the quran to refute this exaggerated belief of yours.

Let me point a few verses out for you:

38:23

to top

Sahih International

Indeed this, my brother, has ninety-nine ewes, and I have one ewe; so he said, 'Entrust her to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

38:24

to top

Sahih International

[David] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that WE HAD TRIED HIM, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and TURNED IN REPENTANCE [to Allah ].

38:25

to top

Sahih International

So WE FORGAVE HIM THAT; and indeed, for him is nearness to Us and a good place of return.

So read the above verses. Dawud a.s committed a mistake and then repented then Allah ( swt) forgave him.

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! VERILY, I HAVE WRONGED MYSELF, SO FORGIVE ME THEN HE FORGAVE HIM verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

So look at the above verse. Musa a.s committed a mistake by killing someone but Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him.

 

 

 

 

(1) first of All before you claim anything Prophet Musa (as) did not commit a Mistake. Please read the verses with rationality:

 

And he entered the city at a time when its people were not aware [of his presence], and found therein two men fighting: one was from his party and the other was from his enemies. [When] the one who was his follower [saw Músa, he] cried out to him for help against the one who was from his enemies. So Músa [went and] struck him with his fist and killed him.

 

[Then Músa] said, “This is Shaytan's deed (عمل الشيطان); surely he is an open enemy who leads [others] astray.” [Músa] said, “My Lord! I surely have been (ظلمتُ نَفسي) unjust to myself; therefore (فاغفر لي) forgive me.” So [Allah] ( غَفَرَ) forgave him; He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.”

 

The common translation of the last verse combined with the statement about the Shaytan creates conflict with the concept of 'ismah, infallibility. When reading these verses, keep the following points in mind:

 

 

What Músa did was not a crime; he went to help an oppressed person and, in the process, struck a blow with his fist at the oppressor. This ended, unexpectedly, in the death of the oppressor. Helping an oppressed person is a praiseworthy act in itself. The death of the oppressor, at most, can be labeled as accidental death that is not a crime or a sin.

 

 

Músa's words that “This is Shaytan's deed” does not necessarily refer to his own action. Remember that the Shaytan himself knew his limits; he says to Allah,

 

 

“…I will certainly mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Your's from among them.” (38:82-83)

And Allah says to the Shaytan,

 

 

“…As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people….” (15:41)

And Músa surely was not among the misled servants of Allah!

 

 

So the sentence that “this is Shaytan's deed” refers to the mischief started by the oppressor himself.

 

As for the sentence that “My Lord I have surely been unjust to myself,” this must be interpreted in light of the meaning of dhulm explained in the case of Prophet Adam (a.s.). Its correct translation would be: “My Lord I surely have put myself into harm” — after the accidental death of the oppressor, Músa was pursued by the people of Fir'awn.

 

 

 

Then how do you explain the sentence after that which says that “ighfir li” which means “forgive me” and“ghafara” which means that Allah “forgave him”?

 

 

Again, the common meaning of ghafara (forgiving) is not applicable here. The word “ghafara” also means “to watch over someone” or “to guard someone” or “to cover something [i.e., protect it]”. This second meaning does not imply any sin; it just means that by accidentally killing the oppressor, Músa found himself in harm and trouble from the people of Fir'awn; and, therefore, he prays ”…therefore, guard me and Allah guarded him.”

 

 

 

This meaning of the last sentence is also supported by another verse of the Qur'an which quotes Allah saying to Músa that, “…when you killed an [Egyptian] man [accidentally and were being pursued by Fir'awn's people], We delivered you from the worry…” (20:40) So the dhulm is explained in this verse as “worry”; and “ghafara”is explained as “delivered”.

 

 

 

 

(2) our Usul al deen of Imamah is to believe that Imam Ali (a.s) is Caliph which I am sure you do.

(3) If you say the two Sahadas you are Muslim not Kafir.

(4) the verses I put Forward where precise and I replied to this with a more detailed in this thread Uli al amr.

  

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(1) first of All before you claim anything Prophet Musa (as) did not commit a Mistake. Please read the verses with rationality:

And he entered the city at a time when its people were not aware [of his presence], and found therein two men fighting: one was from his party and the other was from his enemies. [When] the one who was his follower [saw Músa, he] cried out to him for help against the one who was from his enemies. So Músa [went and] struck him with his fist and killed him.

[Then Músa] said, “This is Shaytan's deed (عمل الشيطان); surely he is an open enemy who leads [others] astray.” [Músa] said, “My Lord! I surely have been (ظلمتُ نَفسي) unjust to myself; therefore (فاغفر لي) forgive me.” So [Allah] ( غَفَرَ) forgave him; He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.”

The common translation of the last verse combined with the statement about the Shaytan creates conflict with the concept of 'ismah, infallibility. When reading these verses, keep the following points in mind:

What Músa did was not a crime; he went to help an oppressed person and, in the process, struck a blow with his fist at the oppressor. This ended, unexpectedly, in the death of the oppressor. Helping an oppressed person is a praiseworthy act in itself. The death of the oppressor, at most, can be labeled as accidental death that is not a crime or a sin.

Músa's words that “This is Shaytan's deed” does not necessarily refer to his own action. Remember that the Shaytan himself knew his limits; he says to Allah,

“…I will certainly mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Your's from among them.” (38:82-83)

And Allah says to the Shaytan,

“…As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people….” (15:41)

And Músa surely was not among the misled servants of Allah!

So the sentence that “this is Shaytan's deed” refers to the mischief started by the oppressor himself.

As for the sentence that “My Lord I have surely been unjust to myself,” this must be interpreted in light of the meaning of dhulm explained in the case of Prophet Adam (a.s.). Its correct translation would be: “My Lord I surely have put myself into harm” — after the accidental death of the oppressor, Músa was pursued by the people of Fir'awn.

Then how do you explain the sentence after that which says that “ighfir li” which means “forgive me” and“ghafara” which means that Allah “forgave him”?

Again, the common meaning of ghafara (forgiving) is not applicable here. The word “ghafara” also means “to watch over someone” or “to guard someone” or “to cover something [i.e., protect it]”. This second meaning does not imply any sin; it just means that by accidentally killing the oppressor, Músa found himself in harm and trouble from the people of Fir'awn; and, therefore, he prays ”…therefore, guard me and Allah guarded him.”

This meaning of the last sentence is also supported by another verse of the Qur'an which quotes Allah saying to Músa that, “…when you killed an [Egyptian] man [accidentally and were being pursued by Fir'awn's people], We delivered you from the worry…” (20:40) So the dhulm is explained in this verse as “worry”; and “ghafara”is explained as “delivered”.

(2) our Usul al deen of Imamah is to believe that Imam Ali (a.s) is Caliph which I am sure you do.

(3) If you say the two Sahadas you are Muslim not Kafir.

(4) the verses I put Forward where precise and I replied to this with a more detailed in this thread Uli al amr.

Yea kinda funny how you missed all the verses out regarding musa a.s:

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! Verily, I have WRONGED MYSELF SO FORGIVE ME Then He [Allah] FORGAVE HIM. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

It's pretty sad how you don't understand your own Imamate!!

You have to believe in all 12 and not 1 so I don't know what you're talking about

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Yea kinda funny how you missed all the verses out regarding musa a.s:

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! Verily, I have WRONGED MYSELF SO FORGIVE ME Then He [Allah] FORGAVE HIM. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

It's pretty sad how you don't understand your own Imamate!!

You have to believe in all 12 and not 1 so I don't know what you're talking about

 

 

(1) one who feels that he has done something wrong does not mean has has committed a Sin.

(2) can you tell me what is the sin in saving ones life? s0 according to you we should just watch someone kill someone and not do anything, while the person being killed is calling for help? Is that a Sin? 

(3) No I did not miss the verse I thought you knew what I was pointing at. Since your Statement was clear.

And I quote from the past answer I gave you on the verses you mentioned above:

 

 

statement:

1. Tawhid- surah 3:18 

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

DO I NEED 100 HADITH TO TELL ME THAT Allah IS ONE??? ....NO. Now I have a precise verse for tawhid I can go to hadith for additional information. CAN ME AND YOU DIFFER ON WHETHER Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì IS THE ONLY ONE GOD?? NO.

 

 

(1) In this Topic My dear friend We did not object whether Allah is One or not. the Main topic of this issue is the Identity of Uli Al amr and Who they are. We have been talking about this For a every longtime Now. No doubt There is No God But God and Prophet Muhammad is his Messenger. It is very Rude of you to make the topic Look like as if I question the Oneness of Allah (S.W.T) can you please state One Quote where I did so? Can you please give one statement from the previous Posts Where I have made an Objection to such? I advise you stop changing the Name of this topic. 

(2) For purpose For Specific reason did you mention this verse?

(3) And now that you have mentioned this Beautiful verse can you please tell me who are "Those of Knowledge" ? as you mentioned the verse above?

 

  

 

 

 

Statement:

 

2. Angels- 

“Say: the ANGEL OF DEATH put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls, then shall you be brought back to your Lord.” (Quran 32:11)

“Say: whoever is an enemy to GABRIEL for he brings down the (revelation) to your heart by God’s will confirming what was before it and a guidance and and glad tidings for the believers (Quran 2:97)

Surah 35:1

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the ANGELS MESSENGERS having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

DO I NEED HADITH TO PROVE THAT ANGELS EXIST??? NO. NOT ONLY ARE WE TOLD THEY EXIST BUT WE ARE TOLD THAT THERE ARE ANGELS WHO TAKE THE SOUL AND ANGELS WHO ARE MESSENGERS AND WE ARE ALSO TOLD THAT THEY HAVE WINGS TWO THREE OR FOUR.

now and only now can we go to hadith for additional information.

 

 

 

I again fail to understand What your trying put together here. Of course I believe in angels. Can you please give and state/Quote where I said I do not believe in Angels? No doubt that Angles are given certain Duties in this world and they must them selves obey Allah and the messenger, But you seem to Fail to keep your point of view together you put an Emphasis on what the name of Uli al amr was not mentioned, you again not only ignored my previous answer on this issue but you in fact tackle me with Something that has nothing to do with topic. This does not prove your stance by any point so far as we have many verse which do not mention the prophets names for example:

     

 

 

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ آمِنُوا بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ قَالُوا نُؤْمِنُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَيَكْفُرُونَ بِمَا وَرَاءَهُ وَهُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا مَعَهُمْ ۗ قُلْ فَلِمَ تَقْتُلُونَ أَنبِيَاءَ اللَّهِ مِن قَبْلُ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ
 

And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?" (2:91)

(1) Why was the Prophets Who Bani Isael killed there names were not mentioned? how do we know if it was not Prophet Mosa  (as)? (na'azo Billah )

also in another verse:

 

 

ضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الذِّلَّةُ أَيْنَ مَا ثُقِفُوا إِلَّا بِحَبْلٍ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَحَبْلٍ مِّنَ النَّاسِ وَبَاءُوا بِغَضَبٍ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَسْكَنَةُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَانُوا يَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ وَيَقْتُلُونَ الْأَنبِيَاءَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُوا يَعْتَدُونَ

 

Sahih International

They have been put under humiliation [by Allah ] wherever they are overtaken, except for a covenant from Allah and a rope from the Muslims. And they have drawn upon themselves anger from Allah and have been put under destitution. That is because they disbelieved in the verses of Allah and killed the prophets without right. That is because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed.

(3:112)

 

 

(2) We find here again Allah (SubahanhoWaTallah) as only Said: "prophets" and did not Mention them by name? Don't you think it was necessary? 

 

Again now in a Another verse:

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ اذْكُرُوا نِعْمَةَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ جَعَلَ فِيكُمْ أَنبِيَاءَ وَجَعَلَكُم مُّلُوكًا وَآتَاكُم مَّا لَمْ يُؤْتِ أَحَدًا مِّنَ الْعَالَمِين

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember the favor of Allah upon you when He appointed among you prophets and made you possessors and gave you that which He had not given anyone among the worlds. (5:20)

 

 

(3) Again Prohet Musa  (as) did not mention the names of the prophets ( Allah did not mention the names of the prophet (s) Who are appointed among them.

 

We take a look at anther important verse:

 

 

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
 
 
Sahih International
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (2:30)

 

(4) Here we Find that Allah did not mention and Reveal to the angels the Identity of Who will be the Successive Authority on earth. Lets not forget he Tells them I know that which you do not know. So do you not think it was necessary for Allah to mention them by name? or even Mention them Characteristics? this Contradicts your false claims on why he did not mention those of Uli al amr.|

 

In another very Important verse:

 

 

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ
Sahih International
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]. (5:55)

       

 

(5) We all know this verse cam down on Imam Ali  (as) I proved this to you in this topic and the previous topic "Appointing a Successor" Yet Allah Did not mention Him By name At Allah. So why not by his name? can you please explain Why?

 

 

 

_________________

Statement:

Surah 2:98

Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and GABRIAL and MICHAEL - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

NOW HERE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì HAS MENTIONED THE NAME OF TWO ANGELS WHEREAS IF YOUR IMAMS WERE SO IMPORTANT AND WERE AN USUL THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN MENTIONED BY NAME.

The excuse shia give that names are not needed because not all prophets (a.s) are mentioned, well this is not a good enough excuse because atleast some prophets (a.s) are mentioned whereas your imams are not.

Never mind names Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì hasn't once said it in the quran that he will send imams for this ummah

 

(1) you are Falsely mistaken you again fail to understand, Comprehend, or even reply to my previous Reply on this issue. the reason Why you emphasis on names is because after your previous claims have been rejected you have nothing but to claim something from the Quran. I would like to ask you again Why was Abu bakr names or the other Khalfias not mentioned yet to you as a Sunni they are so important because they are the ones who guide the Ummah of the prophet (s) yet whats so Ironic, they have not been mentioned as Khalifas in Hadith nor Quran, While Imam Ali (s) is mentioned in verse 5:55 and many more and many Ahadith ( I mentioned In appointing a successor ). Can you please give me one verse where an Imam is appointed by Shura? and explain how the Affairs of Allah can be Determined by The Fallible man? (society)? please.

Did you not read the verse I mentioned Earlier on:

 

 

(1) And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a Caliph, (2:30) 

(2) And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses. No choice have they in any matter. Glorified be Allah, and Exalted above all that they associate as partners with Him. - Noble Quran, 28:68

 

 

Therefore making the Concept of "shura" it self Invalid. So I don't Understand Why Till today you bring the same Question Again and Again with useless constancy.

Can you please give me A verse Where Shura is Mentioned for this Ummah?

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(1) one who feels that he has done something wrong does not mean has has committed a Sin.

(2) can you tell me what is the sin in saving ones life? s0 according to you we should just watch someone kill someone and not do anything, while the person being killed is calling for help? Is that a Sin?

(3) No I did not miss the verse I thought you knew what I was pointing at. Since your Statement was clear.

And I quote from the past answer I gave you on the verses you mentioned above:

Bro seriously STOP. Re read the verse

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! Verily, I have WRONGED MYSELF SO FORGIVE ME Then He [Allah] FORGAVE HIM. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

Allah (swt) forgave him.

If he a.s did nothing wrong then why would Allah (swt) "forgive him"??

Stop playing with verse it's not funny

Il ask you again regarding Imamate of 12 imams.

It's a usul so how are sunni Muslims

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Bro seriously STOP. Re read the verse

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! Verily, I have WRONGED MYSELF SO FORGIVE ME Then He [Allah] FORGAVE HIM. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him.

If he a.s did nothing wrong then why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì "forgive him"??

Stop playing with verse it's not funny

Il ask you again regarding Imamate of 12 imams.

It's a usul so how are sunni Muslims

 

 

If Prophet Musa (as) felt as if he has done something wrong so Allah Forgive him for what he claimed he has done. Allah forgives whom ever he wills, but that does not mean he or she has committed a sin. And how can saving ones life be a sin? Also he did it unintentionally, not knowing that he would die.

Its Usul al Deen but Who said that you had to accept it? for us yes as we acknowledge Imam Ali (a.s) to be the Successor. But that does not make you Kafir, if a Muslim ignores one foundation of Islam but yet believes that God is God and the prophet is the messenger of God, how does that make him a kafir?     

(wasalam)

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If Prophet Musa (as) felt as if he has done something wrong so Allah Forgive him for what he claimed he has done. Allah forgives whom ever he wills, but that does not mean he or she has committed a sin. And how can saving ones life be a sin? Also he did it unintentionally, not knowing that he would die.

Its Usul al Deen but Who said that you had to accept it? for us yes as we acknowledge Imam Ali (a.s) to be the Successor. But that does not make you Kafir, if a Muslim ignores one foundation of Islam but yet believes that God is God and the prophet is the messenger of God, how does that make him a kafir?

(wasalam)

1. Yes Allah (swt) forgives whom he wills no doubt. But musa a.s accidentally killed a man and alah (swt) forgave him. That was his mistake.

If it wasn't wrong then Allah (swt) would not have said we forgave him but instead would have said musa a.s you did nothing wrong. Don't make things more confusing for the ummah than they already are

2. Ehhh.... Hold up. So what you're saying is that to reject any other usul is ALL GOOD?? Bro where did you get your ISLAMIC knowledge from?? And that's a serious question btw

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1. Yes Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgives whom he wills no doubt. But musa a.s accidentally killed a man and alah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him. That was his mistake.

If it wasn't wrong then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì would not have said we forgave him but instead would have said musa a.s you did nothing wrong. Don't make things more confusing for the ummah than they already are

2. Ehhh.... Hold up. So what you're saying is that to reject any other usul is ALL GOOD?? Bro where did you get your ISLAMIC knowledge from?? And that's a serious question btw

 

 

(1) So saving ones life? Who the person is about to kill him is a Sin? i

(2) I did not say its okay, please Stop Manipulating my words. And Put in mind you to not believe in Such usul, therefore it does not mean to you anything or nor does it hold you account for your separate Ideology. And We all believe in Imam Ali (a.s) So no your not Kafir. And please this is not a Hujja upon us.

(wasalam) 

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(1) So saving ones life? Who the person is about to kill him is a Sin? i

(2) I did not say its okay, please Stop Manipulating my words. And Put in mind you to not believe in Such usul, therefore it does not mean to you anything or nor does it hold you account for your separate Ideology. And We all believe in Imam Ali (a.s) So no your not Kafir. And please this is not a Hujja upon us.

(wasalam)

1. Musa a.s killed somebody and repented and Allah (swt) FORGAVE HIM

2. Well if it's "precisely" mentioned in quran like you say then it's hujjah on the ummah.

So il give you two options.

Either ulil amr verse and 5:55 are precise and sunni are kafir for rejecting an usul

Or...

Verse 4:59 and 5:55 and unspecific and sunni are Muslims.

You can't have both verse 4:59/5:55 and still call us Muslims

Take your pick

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1. Musa a.s killed somebody and repented and Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì FORGAVE HIM

2. Well if it's "precisely" mentioned in quran like you say then it's hujjah on the ummah.

So il give you two options.

Either ulil amr verse and 5:55 are precise and sunni are kafir for rejecting an usul

Or...

Verse 4:59 and 5:55 and unspecific and sunni are Muslims.

You can't have both verse 4:59/5:55 and still call us Muslims

Take your pick

 

 

 

(1) Musa did not commit  a sin it was mere Forgiveness.

(2) I did not say you are Kafir Genius.

(3) verse 5:55 is for Imam Ali (a.s) So do you not believe that Imam Ali is the Caliph?

(4) your point is Invalid, Bother verses 4:59 and 5:55 are clear and towhat the prophet said we know who it was for.

(5) your trying so hard to Want me to say that you are Kafir. When are you going to cut the baseless play?

 

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(1) Musa did not commit a sin it was mere Forgiveness.

(2) I did not say you are Kafir Genius.

(3) verse 5:55 is for Imam Ali (a.s) So do you not believe that Imam Ali is the Caliph?

(4) your point is Invalid, Bother verses 4:59 and 5:55 are clear and towhat the prophet said we know who it was for.

(5) your trying so hard to Want me to say that you are Kafir. When are you going to cut the baseless play?

1. It was mere forgiveness?? Ok. Like that even makes sense.

2.you might aswell

3.imam ali yes but I reject that imam jafar was caliph and imam baqir etc etc. I reject Ny of then were appointed

4.so sunni are kafir then

5.when you start talking sense.. How can a person remain a Muslim if he rejects an usul

DO YOU WANT TO REACH A CONCLUSION. BECAUSE I WANT TO REACH A CONCLUSION IN THE NEXT 15 MINS BECAUSE THIS HAS GONE ON FOR TOO LONG

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1. It was mere forgiveness?? Ok. Like that even makes sense.

2.you might aswell

3.imam ali yes but I reject that imam jafar was caliph and imam baqir etc etc. I reject Ny of then were appointed

4.so sunni are kafir then

5.when you start talking sense.. How can a person remain a Muslim if he rejects an usul

DO YOU WANT TO REACH A CONCLUSION. BECAUSE I WANT TO REACH A CONCLUSION IN THE NEXT 15 MINS BECAUSE THIS HAS GONE ON FOR TOO LONG

 

 

 

(1) Sunni are Not Kafir, please no False statements. 

(2) and even if you do that does not make you a Kafir.

(3) They are Appointed By Allah. (Proven from Hadith and Sunni works)

(4) You have a Different Usul to Us, so your point of view is Invalid. And in our Usul Its Wilayat that is meant by Imamah.

(wasalam)

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(1) Sunni are Not Kafir, please no False statements.

(2) and even if you do that does not make you a Kafir.

(3) They are Appointed By Allah. (Proven from Hadith and Sunni works)

(4) You have a Different Usul to Us, so your point of view is Invalid. And in our Usul Its Wilayat that is meant by Imamah.

(wasalam)

Bro you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

REJECTING AN USUL TAKES YOU OUT OF ISLAM

The truth is that you want two things

1. You want to say imamTe is usul and is precisely mentioned in quran

2. And at the same time you want to call sunni Muslims while they reject the twelve "appointed imams".

Sorry but it's not going to happen. Pick 1

You have

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Bro you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

REJECTING AN USUL TAKES YOU OUT OF ISLAM

The truth is that you want two things

1. You want to say imamTe is usul and is precisely mentioned in quran

2. And at the same time you want to call sunni Muslims while they reject the twelve "appointed imams".

Sorry but it's not going to happen. Pick 1

You have

Our Usul are out Usul but Two of them are the Shadatain which is what makes you a Muslim. And not it does not please give me a Scholar who says them.

(1) The Imams are mentioned Precisely through the narrations that are Authentic.

(2) Second of all stop Contradicting your self brother the Imamah is Wilyat. 

(3) Am I kafir for rejecting Umar and uthamn? and Abu Bakr? Since they are (According to you (Not even proven) ) that they are the Caliphs which we should obey In the verse 4:59. So am I kafir??

(wasalam)

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Our Usul are out Usul but Two of them are the Shadatain which is what makes you a Muslim. And not it does not please give me a Scholar who says them.

(1) The Imams are mentioned Precisely through the narrations that are Authentic.

(2) Second of all stop Contradicting your self brother the Imamah is Wilyat.

(3) Am I kafir for rejecting Umar and uthamn? and Abu Bakr? Since they are (According to you (Not even proven) ) that they are the Caliphs which we should obey In the verse 4:59. So am I kafir??

(wasalam)

Believing in abu bakr umar etc caliphate is not an usul so stop comparing apples to oranges.

IMAMATE is an USUL

If disobeying ulul amr was wrong then Allah (swt) would have sent a verse saying so, because there are verses condemning us if we disobey Allah (swt) and his messenger ( pbuh) and since you believe ulil amr is on the same evel then there should have been a verse condemning us if we disobeyed ulil amr too.

Edited by Just the truth

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Believing in abu bakr umar etc caliphate is not an usul so stop comparing apples to oranges.

IMAMATE is an USUL

If disobeying ulul amr was wrong then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì would have sent a verse saying so, because there are verses condemning us if we disobey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his messenger ( pbuh) and since you believe ulil amr is on the same evel then there should have been a verse condemning us if we disobeyed ulil amr too.

(1) You did not Answer my Question Am I kafir for Disbelieving in them? What if I believe they are Criminals? Am I kafir?

(2) The ULi al amr are the 12 Caliphs. And by Disobeying Ahlulbayt you Disobey the prophet and Allah. as we know we must hold on to them, so we wont go astray.

(3) That point of view has been rejected between page 16-18.

(Wasalam)  

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Stop beating around the bush??? Brother just the truth, that is what you are exactly doing. Don't you think it's about time, you started answering my questions and discussing my points??? Why are you so afraid to go head on with me??? Your response to me is almost just a few lines. What are you frightened of???

To complete your faith you must believe in the imam FULLSTOP

To complete your faith, one must believe in the 12 imams FULLSTOP[/quote

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT!

Brother Aliyul Akbar, you asked me to explain to you about Nabuwath and Imaamath. I will give you a full reply on this subject. You wont see me ducking and diving, avoiding and ignoring, asking instead of answering, shying and hiding and then eventually accusing and abusing, just because i can't answer. This is not me or my style but infact, this is exactly what brother just the truth is all about.

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(1) You did not Answer my Question Am I kafir for Disbelieving in them? What if I believe they are Criminals? Am I kafir?

(2) The ULi al amr are the 12 Caliphs. And by Disobeying Ahlulbayt you Disobey the prophet and Allah. as we know we must hold on to them, so we wont go astray.

(3) That point of view has been rejected between page 16-18.

(Wasalam)

1. You are not kafir for disbelieving them or cursing them or calling them criminals. It us not usul to believe in abu bakr and co but for you it is an USUL.

Now stop running away from my question and tell me why you are calling me and other SUNNIS Muslims while we are according to you and your sect rejecting an usul.

2. Again you believe ulil amr are the 12 imams and not me.

3. Err... No. You gave me your "theory " with no proof

Stop beating around the bush??? Brother just the truth, that is what you are exactly doing. Don't you think it's about time, you started answering my questions and discussing my points??? Why are you so afraid to go head on with me??? Your response to me is almost just a few lines. What are you frightened of???

To complete your faith you must believe in the imam FULLSTOP

To complete your faith, one must believe in the 12 imams FULLSTOP[/quote

ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT!

Brother Aliyul Akbar, you asked me to explain to you about Nabuwath and Imaamath. I will give you a full reply on this subject. You wont see me ducking and diving, avoiding and ignoring, asking instead of answering, shying and hiding and then eventually accusing and abusing, just because i can't answer. This is not me or my style but infact, this is exactly what brother just the truth is all about.

AMEEN stop throwing your dummy out of your pram and tell me why you are not bringing a translation and tafsir of verse 4:59?? What you so scared of??

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786

 

From my reading and study of the Tafsir's of the Quran according to Shia Fuquha the interpretation/definition of verse 3:7 is very different then the one put forward to frame this discussion which is that it establishes the fact that all of the Usul al-deen must come from precise verses.  

 

So I looked at Sunni versions of Tafsir to see if they have this interpretation and I found it to be closer to the general Shia view.  The Tafsir below which comes from the ahlul-sunnah gives a very different interpretation/definition.  So this entire debate within the framework of verse 3:7 does not make any sense.  The discussion can only be a general debate upon Shia/Sunni beliefs.

 

From Sunni sources:

 

{He it is Who hath revealed unto thee Muhammad the Scripture wherein are clear revelations. They are the substance of the Book. and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.}

Tafseer ayah 3:7
 

He it is Who revealed to you the Book, wherein are verses [that are] clear, lucid in proof, forming the Mother Book, the original basis for rulings, and others allegorical, whose meanings are not known, such as the opening verses of some sūras. He [God] refers to the whole [Qur’ān] as: 1) ‘clear’ [muhkam] where He says [A Book] whose verses have been made clear [Q. 11:1], meaning that it contains no imperfections; and as 2) ‘allegorical’ [mutashābih], where He says A Book consimilar [Q. 39:23], meaning that its parts resemble each other in terms of beauty and veracity. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, inclination away from truth, they follow the allegorical part, desiring sedition, among the ignorant of them, throwing them into specious arguments and confusion, and desiring its interpretation, its explanation, and none knows its interpretation, its explanation, save God, Him alone. And those firmly rooted, established and capable, in knowledge (al-rāsikhūna fī’l-‘ilm is the subject, the predicate of which is [what follows]) say, ‘We believe in it, the allegorical part, that it is from God, and we do not know its meaning; all, of the clear and the allegorical, is from our Lord’; yet none remembers (yadhdhakkar, the initial tā’ [of yatadhakkar] has been assimilated with the dhāl), that is, none is admonished, but people of pith, possessors of intellect, who, when they see those following that [allegorical part only], also say:

 

Links:

 

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=7

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

(NOTE: The Shia belief that i understand concerning the question on what defines a muslim is as follows:  To be a Muslim you must recite the 2 Shahadat's.  To be a Momin you must accept the Wilayat of Imam Ali (as).  Not accepting the Wilayat of Imam Ali (as) and then subsequently his successors can ead you to perdition and hypocrisy)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As a side note and for all of my muslim brothers/sisters to ponder on their own.  (I will not argue with anyone concerning what I put forward - It is for each person to contemplate on their own - If someone wants to ask a question they can PM me)

 

Since this discussion should come to an end, I believe that to any neutral party it is clear that their are enough references in the Quran that Allah (s.w.t.) has made it clear that their will be a guide for all time, that only Allah (s.w.t) chooses that guide (i.e. his representative and proof), that those who posses knowledge from Allah (s.w.t.) will have complete understanding of the Quran and be the guide and thus have authority over humankind, that the concept of Wilaya (Imamate) and vicegerency clearly exists within the Quran.  

 

If one does not have certain preconceived prejudice and accepts the above, then one must come to the conclusion that the Prophet did have a vicegerents, they were (are to be) 12 based upon the verses establishing 12 vicegerents for each Prophet (as), that the vicegerents are guides. to be a guide/vicegerent they must have complete understanding of the Quran and be vested in authority by Allah (s.w.t.) to guide the Ummah.  Without these merits, criteria a guide could potentially misguide or make mistakes which could have very negative consequences and goes against the Justice of Allah (s.w.t.).  

 

If one comes to these conclusions, then the question is who are these guides?  What are their names?  Based upon this and the above one has to turn to the Prophet to determine their names because Allah (s.w.t.) clearly established the office through these clear verses from the Quran but did not provide the names of the office bearers.  (NOTE: Allah (s.w.t.) did the same for the Seal of the Prophets in the other books (Torah, Bible, Psalms) i.e. foretold of the coming of the reformer (office) but not his name).  So we turn to Hadith and it becomes clear from both schools of thought that they must be 12 and Ali (a.s) is the first of the 12.  Then Hadith from the Shia make it clear who the other 11 are with their names and the Mahdi (a.s.) being the last of the 12 according to both schools.

 

Additionally from a logical/philosophical/mystic/gnostic perspective one must focus on the Justice of Allah (s.w.t.).  It is clear to all that Allah (s.w.t.) must be and is Just.  The Quran and verses quoted in this discussion clearly establish that fact.  

 

Furthermore, Allah (s.w.t.) has created everything in balance (night/day; men/women; Sun/moon; etc....).  We all believe that with Allah (s.w.t.) permission, shaytan will continue to exist and mislead humankind until the end of time.  One must ask him/herself, why would Allah (s.w.t.) not create a counterveiling force to ensure balance and maintain justice as he himself establishes as part of his attributes.  

 

Allah (s.w.t.) has established that he does not directly communicate with humankind because they could not handle it.  As Allah (s.w.t.) says the mountains would self destruct if he communicated directly with them, we all know that the Prophets passed out (Musa (as)) or had symptoms of fear, shock or extreme fatigue when Allah (s.w.t.) did communicate with them directly (Prophet Muhammad (saws) upon receiving Wahi).  He only communicates through his special creation (prophets, vicegerents, angels, etc...) to humankind.  He uses these functions to carry out his order (ex. angel of death and other angels)

 

Then through whom is Allah (s.w.t.) providing guidance?  Or put another way, through Allah (s.w.t.) permission, who is countering the Shaytan?  Who did it from the beginning of creation? Who provided help and support to the other Prophets (who did they seek help through? Who had been created before Shaytan?  Who was it that Shaytan acknowledged during his argument with Allah (s.w.t.)?  If you ponder on these things then some verses from the Quran become more clear (ex. Surah Qadr - Who does the Amr come to each year), some Hadith make more sense and some of the sayings of Imam Ali (as) and the other Imams (as) said make sense.  

 

Then you will understand why Allah (s.w.t.) declared our Prophet (saws) to be the greatest of his creation.  Otherwise, what did he do that the other Prophets did not?  What did he endure that the others did not?  Is Allah (s.w.t.) unjust to elevate him for no reason?  When you understand the greatness of our Prophet then you will understand the greatness of his vicegerents and their role. Because the vicegerents of each Prophet have to be able to execute everything within the mandate of the leader whom they represent and thus must have all of the capabilities, traits and knowledge on par with him.  The Prophet Muhammad (saws) vicegerents then must have all of the capabilities, knowledge and traits to fulfill his role as Guide to properly discharge their duties.  If you can come to this logical/philosophical/mystic/gnostic conclusion then many verses of the Quran such as Surah al-Qadr and the verses of Mubahillah, 33:33 make complete sense.

 

As the prayer goes which I have posted before and will paraphrase this time, Allah (s.w.t.) please help me understand yourself because if I do not understand you and then I can not understand your Prophet (saws).  Please help me understand your Prophet (saws) because if I do not then I can not understand your Proof (as).  If I do not understand your Proof (as) then I will lose my Deen.  (If you understand the Justice of Allah (s.w.t.) then you will understand the greatness of his Prophet (saws) and then the greatness of his Proofs (as) and realize that any normal human can not fulfill the complete mandate of the role.  

 

Again, some thoughts for people to ponder with an open heart.  May Allah (s.w.t.) guide us all and make/keep our intentions pure so we seek the light and guidance and not fall into the traps of Shaytan.  Again, I will not argue with anyone nor post anymore on this thread.  If anyone wants to seek clarification or have any further inquiries they can PM me.  

 

 

Was salaam 

Edited by :wayfarer786

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You seem angry brother ameen

No, i'm not angry at all. Just mentioning a few facts, which clearly can be seen. This is no sign of anger. If he can't answer my questions and doesn't have the ability to discuss my points, then why should i be angry???

Brother just the truth, it's about time you took your dummy out of your mouth and start discussing. You put a question to me and i answer. I question you and you start dancing around.

I've translated it for you many times over. You have your meaning and i have mine. I've discussed mine but you are afraid to discuss yours. May be you have too much to lose and that is why you don't want to get into a discussion with me.

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Brother just the truth. Please read this with a heart with the intention of acceptance and no prejudice or bias..

This is off another post just to let you know, im not worthy of the credit. Thank pureethics

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you." (Quran 4:59).

-Here it is Minkum not Minhum, meaning Allah chose not anyone else. Clearly Allah states there is authority after the prophet. The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Quran uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again. Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr. If you think it is talking about the people chosen in democracy according to you why would Allah state this:

"Do not obey a sinner" (Quran 76:24)

-Clearly everyone sins, besides those whom Allah has chosen. Therefore we shouldnt obey anyone, because everyone sins, except whom Allah has chosen.

May Allah guide all

And Allah knows best

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1. You are not kafir for disbelieving them or cursing them or calling them criminals. It us not usul to believe in abu bakr and co but for you it is an USUL.

Now stop running away from my question and tell me why you are calling me and other SUNNIS Muslims while we are according to you and your sect rejecting an usul.

2. Again you believe ulil amr are the 12 imams and not me.

3. Err... No. You gave me your "theory " with no proof

re you so afraid to go head on with me??? Your response to me is almost just a few lines. What are you frightened of???

AMEEN stop throwing your dummy out of your pram and tell me why you are not bringing a translation and tafsir of verse 4:59?? What you so scared of??

 

 

 

(1) and here you cease to even reply. In addition its Ironic how you call them theories, since you Reject your own Six Sahihs. brother, these are not theories genius. These are Authentic Hadiths I gave you from your own books. You either did not bother to read them, or You ignored them knowingly.

(2) Understand Wilaya before talking about Imamah.

(3) So its okay to to reject the Kholafa al Rashedoon? 

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I feel this topic must be locked now  27 pages and same thing happening again and again! :)

Lets move on guys. The thing is that we can't convince others. Let people live in their world.

 

 

If people took the time to read. We would not be on the 27th page.

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It's not about getting to convince people, like brother just the truth, it's about keeping ahead in the discussion/arguement/debate. As you can see all brother just the truth has got left is sarcasm and accusations. That's all he can respond with. Dummy out of the pram, you are not a mufasir, the accusation of tehreef etc and this is what i want people to see.

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Which posts are based on knowledge and information and which are based on accusations and sarcasm, people are fully aware.

Brother just the truth isn't stupid and daft either. He clearly knows the type of response he is giving, in a childish manner.

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