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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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1.5 billion Muslims believe as such???? Well sunshine, why don't you prove it??? You're talking big but that's all you're seem to be doing. No back up what so ever. You're just an empty vessel making alot of noise.

If it's hujja on me to prove my claim then, it is also hujja on you to prove yours and also it is hujja on you to justify your accusations against me. You just love to talk BIG but you can't answer, respond or discuss BIG.

I will not bring you a translation??? Sunshine, you couldn't, even if your life depended on it. It's not something you wont do, it's just something you can't do.

If the Ulul Amre are fallible then, why are we told to obey them??? And if the obedience is conditional then, what are the terms and conditions??? These are just your assumptions, unless you full fill the hujja upon you and start proving your claims.

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1.5 billion Muslims believe as such???? Well sunshine, why don't you prove it??? You're talking big but that's all you're seem to be doing. No back up what so ever. You're just an empty vessel making alot of noise.

If it's hujja on me to prove my claim then, it is also hujja on you to prove yours and also it is hujja on you to justify your accusations against me. You just love to talk BIG but you can't answer, respond or discuss BIG.

I will not bring you a translation??? Sunshine, you couldn't, even if your life depended on it. It's not something you wont do, it's just something you can't do.

If the Ulul Amre are fallible then, why are we told to obey them??? And if the obedience is conditional then, what are the terms and conditions??? These are just your assumptions, unless you full fill the hujja upon you and start proving your claims.

Listen "sunshine" I WILL NOT BRING A TRANSLATION OF VERSE 4:59.

Fee shayin means IN ANYTHING

FEE MEANS (IN)

SHAYIN MEANS (ANYTHING)

YOU BRING ME A TRANSLATION WHERE:

Fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS

Soo what if we're told to obey a fallible?? Islam tells us to obey our parents yet they're fallible so what you talking about.

Edited by Just the truth

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786

 

Salaams brothers - I just wanted to add the following information and then offer some brotherly advice.  If you choose to ignore it then go ahead and continue your discussion specifically regarding Verse 4:59.  

 

The proof of Imamate from the Quran is as follows from Shia scholars:

 

"

Question:

Is there any mention of the concept of “Imamah” (Divine Leadership) in the Holy Qur’an?

Answer:

The Imams are definitely mentioned in the Holy Qur’an.

It is firstly interesting to note that the word ‘Imam’ is used 12 times in the Holy Qur’an, with different meanings.

The following ayat of the Holy Qur’an deal with the issue of Imamah:
“And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), “Verily, I am going to make you an Imam”. [ibrahim) said, "And of my offspring (to make Imams?” (Allah) said, "My Covenant (of Imamat) includes not the Zalimun (wrongdoers)”

This ayah succinctly proves the following points:
• The status of Imamah is higher than the status of Prophethood because Prophet Ibrahim was already a Prophet but he then became an Imam.
• An Imam is appointed by God, not by people.
• A person who is Dhalim (one who has a wrong belief or is a wrongdoer), cannot be appointed as an Imam.

“And We made them Imams, guiding by Our Command, and We revealed to them the doing of good deeds, performing Salat and the giving of Zakat and of Us they were worshippers.”

This ayah shows that:
• The Imams are appointed by God
• All their actions are done under the Command of God and with knowledge of the Reality of (Amr of God)
• All their actions are done in consonance with the Revelation from God, i.e. they do not act independently and all their actions are guided by revelation and inspiration

“And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.”

The ‘Guide’ mentioned in this ayah is Imam Ali (as). All the other possibilities that have been suggested for ‘Guide’ in this ayah do not make sense. The following narration from a major Sunni source confirms this:

“The Messenger of Allah (P) called for a purifier (water) and Ali Bin Abi Talib was with him. After he performed his Wudu, he took the hand of Ali and put it on his chest saying: “You are only a warner” meaning himself. He then put his hand on Ali’s chest saying to him: “and for every group of people there is a guide”. O Ali! You are the beacon of people…” [al-Mostadrak 3:129]

There are many other ayat which talk about the concept of Imam, as there are many other ayat in relation to Imam Ali (as). Although these ayat do not mention Imam Ali (as) by name, they are clearly indicating him.

Answered by: Dr Ali Alsamail

Certified by: Sheikh Mansour Leghaei

 

Before anyone comes here to say it, yes this a classic cut/paste because I would rather trust scholars on the subject then add something from myself.  This is a brief reply and all of the other material provided by brother The Islam History would support it.  

On another note as an observer I would like to add the following:  

 

Brother Just the Truth - If you are really interested in learning about the Shia beliefs and the concept of Imamate you should discuss it with an Islamic Shia scholar.  When you started, that is what I believed you were truly seeking.  Then unfortunately, you made it a personal quest to defend the Ahlul-Sunna and this thread has slipped into something terrible.  The insults, the accusations and the display of "personal pride" has turned a beautiful discussion into something ugly.  I am sorry that my note in another thread may have been responsible for this (May Allah (s.w.t.) forgive us all). 

I recommend to all 3 brother that this discussion end now.  The view provided above is for clarity only.  There are no winners/losers.  We all have our own beliefs and Allah (s.w.t.) will sort it all out when the Mahdi (a.s.) comes or when we go to meet him.  Until then each one of us will have to either continue blindly in our path or open our hearts for true guidance and be blessed with it.  I will not make a judgement, to each his own (Lakum-deenakum waliyadeen).

 

Was salaam

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Salaam brother Wayfarer 786. Very nicely put forward. Now brother just the truth you said "I will not bring a translation for verse 4:59" and my reply once again

"why??? What are you afraid of???

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Salaam brother Wayfarer 786. Very nicely put forward. Now brother just the truth you said "I will not bring a translation for verse 4:59" and my reply once again

"why??? What are you afraid of???

I'm not afraid of anything. I just want you to continue so the people of this forum can see your tehreef.

786

Salaams brothers - I just wanted to add the following information and then offer some brotherly advice. If you choose to ignore it then go ahead and continue your discussion specifically regarding Verse 4:59.

The proof of Imamate from the Quran is as follows from Shia scholars:

" Question:

Is there any mention of the concept of “Imamah” (Divine Leadership) in the Holy Qur’an? Answer:

The Imams are definitely mentioned in the Holy Qur’an.

It is firstly interesting to note that the word ‘Imam’ is used 12 times in the Holy Qur’an, with different meanings.

The following ayat of the Holy Qur’an deal with the issue of Imamah:

“And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), “Verily, I am going to make you an Imam”. [ibrahim) said, "And of my offspring (to make Imams?” (Allah) said, "My Covenant (of Imamat) includes not the Zalimun (wrongdoers)”

This ayah succinctly proves the following points:

• The status of Imamah is higher than the status of Prophethood because Prophet Ibrahim was already a Prophet but he then became an Imam.

• An Imam is appointed by God, not by people.

• A person who is Dhalim (one who has a wrong belief or is a wrongdoer), cannot be appointed as an Imam.

“And We made them Imams, guiding by Our Command, and We revealed to them the doing of good deeds, performing Salat and the giving of Zakat and of Us they were worshippers.”

This ayah shows that:

• The Imams are appointed by God

• All their actions are done under the Command of God and with knowledge of the Reality of (Amr of God)

• All their actions are done in consonance with the Revelation from God, i.e. they do not act independently and all their actions are guided by revelation and inspiration

“And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.”

The ‘Guide’ mentioned in this ayah is Imam Ali (as). All the other possibilities that have been suggested for ‘Guide’ in this ayah do not make sense. The following narration from a major Sunni source confirms this:

“The Messenger of Allah (P) called for a purifier (water) and Ali Bin Abi Talib was with him. After he performed his Wudu, he took the hand of Ali and put it on his chest saying: “You are only a warner” meaning himself. He then put his hand on Ali’s chest saying to him: “and for every group of people there is a guide”. O Ali! You are the beacon of people…” [al-Mostadrak 3:129]

There are many other ayat which talk about the concept of Imam, as there are many other ayat in relation to Imam Ali (as). Although these ayat do not mention Imam Ali (as) by name, they are clearly indicating him.

Answered by: Dr Ali Alsamail

Certified by: Sheikh Mansour Leghaei

Before anyone comes here to say it, yes this a classic cut/paste because I would rather trust scholars on the subject then add something from myself. This is a brief reply and all of the other material provided by brother The Islam History would support it.

On another note as an observer I would like to add the following:

Brother Just the Truth - If you are really interested in learning about the Shia beliefs and the concept of Imamate you should discuss it with an Islamic Shia scholar. When you started, that is what I believed you were truly seeking. Then unfortunately, you made it a personal quest to defend the Ahlul-Sunna and this thread has slipped into something terrible. The insults, the accusations and the display of "personal pride" has turned a beautiful discussion into something ugly. I am sorry that my note in another thread may have been responsible for this (May Allah (s.w.t.) forgive us all).

I recommend to all 3 brother that this discussion end now. The view provided above is for clarity only. There are no winners/losers. We all have our own beliefs and Allah (s.w.t.) will sort it all out when the Mahdi (a.s.) comes or when we go to meet him. Until then each one of us will have to either continue blindly in our path or open our hearts for true guidance and be blessed with it. I will not make a judgement, to each his own (Lakum-deenakum waliyadeen).

Was salaam

Salams bro.

I totally agree, this should end now but I find it rather disturbing how you havnt condemned AMEEN for his tehreef of verse 4:59.

Regarding the verses you've bought forward then I would love to refute them BUT there isn't really any point because we will only end up in this situation we are in regarding verse 4:59.

I just want to make 1 quick point regarding Imamate and nubuwwah.

Imamate is not higher than nubuwwah bro you're mistaken. In what way is "imamah " higher in status than nubuwwah?? What do your imams have "extra" that prophets a.s don't?? They actually have less!!

Bro a rasul is higher than a nabi because a rasul has a lot more work and responsibility and at most an imam has the same quality as a nabi because your imams did not bring anything new just like nabis.

So common sense tells us that the qualities of an imam and nabi are the same but a rasul is higher than a nabi so he is higher than an imam.

Ibrahim a.s was not "promoted" to be an "imam". There was no promotion involved but he was made a leader/imam just like any other prophet was the leader of his people.

Why would Allah (swt) "promote" a rasul to an imam when a rasul is higher than an imam??

The job of a rasul cannot be done by an imam.

PS. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN IMAMATE ABOVE IS JUST AN EXPLANATION FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING.

So sorry the CONCEPT of shia Imamate does not exist in quran.

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Brother just the truth, take a look at how stupid and silly this sounds,

You accuse me of tehreef then, you want me to continue, so that you can show people, about my tehreef???

What is the law here, both religious and law of the land????

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Brother just the truth, take a look at how stupid and silly this sounds,

You accuse me of tehreef then, you want me to continue, so that you can show people, about my tehreef???

What is the law here, both religious and law of the land????

No no no no no. The only person who sounds silly is YOU. I will continue letting you believe fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS.

I don't know what you mean regarding law of land??

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Statement:

I totally agree, this should end now but I find it rather disturbing how you havnt condemned AMEEN for his tehreef of verse 4:59.

 

What TAhreef? Did he Change a verse in the Quran? I find it disturbing our you accuse me and other people of being ignorant, whilst you have not proven a single Ideals of your school of thought. 


Statement:
Regarding the verses you've bought forward then I would love to refute them BUT there isn't really any point because we will only end up in this situation we are in regarding verse 4:59.

 

Which, you have not proven from the:

(1) Fact Aspect.
(2) Literature Aspect.
(3) the oppositions aspect.

Sorry so whats your point replying? tell me what is a debate to you? Can you give your Definition of a Proper debate?   

 

Statement:
Imamate is not higher than nubuwwah bro you're mistaken. In what way is "imamah " higher in status than nubuwwah?? What do your imams have "extra" that prophets a.s don't?? They actually have less!! Bro a rasul is higher than a nabi because a rasul has a lot more work and responsibility and at most an imam has the same quality as a nabi because your imams did not bring anything new just like nabis. So common sense tells us that the qualities of an imam and nabi are the same but a rasul is higher than a nabi so he is higher than an imam. Ibrahim a.s was not "promoted" to be an "imam". There was no promotion involved but he was made a leader/imam just like any other prophet was the leader of his people. 
Statement:

Why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì "promote" a rasul to an imam when a rasul is higher than an imam??

 

Justthetruth, According to the definition given by out ulama, the Imamate or Vicegerency of Allah, is one of the fundamentals of Islam. We believe that the Imamate is the Vicegerency of Allah for all of creation and the Khilafat al-Rasul (successors of the Prophet) for this world and the hereafter. Therefore, it is obligatory for all mankind to follow its tenants in all matters, temporal as well as spiritual.

 

My statement is not confined to the Imamate of the Shi’as. Even your great ulama’ have the same belief. One of them is your famous commentator Qazi Baidhawi, who says in his ‘Minhaju'l-Usul’ in connection with the discussion on narrations of hadith, "The Imamate is one of the fundamental principles of the faith, whose denial and opposition leads to infidelity and innovation."

 

Mulla ‘Ali Qushachi says in ‘Sharh al-Tajrid’, "The Imamate is the general vicegerent of Allah for both the affairs of this world and religion, like the caliphate of the Prophet." And Qazi Ruzbahan, one of the most fanatical of your ulama’, points to the same meaning. He says: "The Imamate, according to the followers of Abu'l-Hasan Ash'ari, is the vicegerency of the Prophet of Islam for establishing the faith and safeguarding the interests of the Muslim community.

 

 

All the followers are bound in duty to comply with its dictates. Had the Imamate not been a part of the articles of the practice of the faith, the Prophet would not have said that 'Whosoever dies not knowing the Imam of his age, dies the death of ignorance.'"

 

 

This has been quoted by your distinguished ulama’, like Hamidi in ‘Jam'i-Bainu's-Sahihain’ and Mulla As'ad Taftazani in ‘Sharhe Aqa'id al-Nasafi’. Not knowing a single article of the practice of the faith would not be equivalent to ignorance stated by Baidhawi about not knowing the fundamentals, namely that ignorance of them is the cause of infidelity. Therefore, the Imamate is one of the fundamentals of the faith and is the completing stage of prophethood.

 

 

Hence, there is a vast difference between the concept of our Imamate, and those interpreted by you. You call your ‘ulama’ Imams, such as Imam Azam, and Imam Maliki. But, this is in the verbal sense. We also use the terms ‘Imam al-Juma'a, and ‘Imam al-Jama'at.

 

So there may be hundreds of Imams at one time, but in the technical sense in which we use the word "Imam," it means vicegerency of Allah. In this sense there is only one Imam at one time. The noble qualities of knowledge, magnanimity, valor, devotion to Allah, and piety have been perfected in him.

 

He surpasses humanity in all merits and occupies a state of infallibility. The world shall not be without such an Imam until the Day of Judgement. An Imam of such excellence is at the highest stage of spiritual attainment. Such an Imam is divinely commissioned and is appointed by the Holy Prophet. He surpasses all creation, including the prophets of the past.

 

 

 

You have not yet asked on what grounds I have made this statement, and therefore you say it is without reason. The best proof for my statement is the Holy Quran, which, narrating the life of the Prophet Abraham, says that, after giving him three tests (of life, wealth, and sons), Allah intended to make his rank more exalted.

 

Since prophethood and the title of Khalil (Friend) did not apparently warrant a higher rank, the office of Imamate was the only office of a higher order to which even a Prophet of Allah could be entrusted.

The Holy Qur'an says:

 

 

"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: 'Surely I will make you an Imam of men.' Abraham said: 'And of my offspring?' 'My covenant does not include the unjust,' He said." (2:124)

 

 

This verse, which indicates the position of the Imamate, also proves that the rank of the Imamate is superior to that of prophethood, since the position of the Prophet Abraham was raised from prophethood to the Imamate.

 

 

And now your going to tell me that I am Concluding that Imam Ali (a.s) is higher than the prophet Peace be upon him. Well I am not.  I do not mean what you have concluded brother. As you know, there is a great difference between general prophethood, and special prophethood. The rank of the Imamate is higher than the rank of general prophethood, but lower than special prophethood. The last Prophet is the highest stage of special prophethood.

 

Is a prophet who was sent to guide 1,000 people equal to one who sent to guide 30,000 people or to one sent to guide all of humanity? Let's take an example. Is the teacher of first-grade students equal to a teacher of fourth-grade students? Are the teachers of higher classes equal to professors or university teachers?

 

 

All belong to the same administration and work under the same general program, their aim being to educate students. Yet, in view of the teacher's knowledge, they are not equal.

 

 

Each is different from the other according to his learning, ability, and achievement. From the point of view of the aim of prophethood, all the prophets of Allah are equal. However, because of differences in rank and knowledge, they are different. The Holy Qur'an says:

 

 

"We have made some of these Apostles to excel the others; among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank." (2:253)

 

 

Your own Jarullah Zamakhshari says in his Tafsir al-Kushshaf that the above verse means that our Prophet was superior in rank to all others because of his special merits, the most important of which was that he was the last of the prophets.

 

The perfection of humanity lies in the perfection of the soul. Moral and spiritual perfection cannot be attained without purifying the soul. This purification is impossible unless one is guided by the power of wisdom. One is then able to rise higher and higher with the force of knowledge, and right action until he reaches the acme of humanity, as has been explained by ‘Ali. He said: "Man has been created with the power of speech, which is the essence of humanity.

 

 

If speech is adorned with knowledge and action, it resembles the existence of the ethereal realm, which is the origin of man's creation.When his speech reaches the place of temperance and is cleared of all physical matter; it becomes one with the ethereal realm. Then it leaves the animal world and reaches the highest stage of humanity."

 

Man's power of articulation renders him superior to all existence. But there is one condition attached to it: that he cleanse his soul of all impurities with knowledge and right action. These two factors in man are like two wings of a bird, which fly higher according to the strength of the wings. Similarly, man's level of human attainment rises according to his knowledge, and right action. To pass beyond the province of animality and to reach the sphere of humanity depends upon the perfection of the soul.

 

 

The man who combines in himself the faculties of knowledge and right action and reaches the third of three classes of men (the common people, the elite, and the most elite), arrives at the lowest stage of prophethood. When such a man becomes the object of Allah's special attention, he becomes a prophet. Of course prophethood also has different stages. A prophet may reach the highest point in the highest of these three classes.

 

 

This rank is the highest in the sphere of possibility, which the sages call the First Wisdom, and which is the First Effect or the First Consequence. There is no rank higher than this in the realm of existence. This position is occupied by the last of the prophets, who is second to none except the First Cause. When the Prophet was raised to this highest stage, prophethood was concluded.

The Imamate is a stage lower than the highest stage of prophethood, but it is a stage higher than all other ranks of prophethood. Since ‘Ali was raised to the stage higher than prophethood and was one in spirit with the Holy Prophet, he was endowed with the office of the Imamate and was thus superior to all previous prophets.

 

 

Statement:
The job of a rasul cannot be done by an imam.

 

This is Invalid. So what your saying, when Allah Appointed Twelve Khalifas for Bani Israel, you as saying the people should not follow them. You are also concluding that they have no knowledge what so ever about the Religion. Therefore how can they Guide their Ummah? If a prophet dies, he must put someone in his place to guide the Ummah as he did. And Why would this be Difficult for Imam Ali (a.s)? when the prophet Appinted him? The prophet Also Says who ever Disobeys him, Disobeys me. So does that not make it clear that he is the guide after the prophet and the Wali of every Muslim? and If Wali is master or Ally, then what better way to refer to the prophet, by referring to his successor? and who he the prophet peace be upon him, told us to hold on to? 

    


Statement:
So sorry the CONCEPT of shia Imamate does not exist in quran. 

 

(1) No Proof of your statement what so ever.
(2) You have not Refuted the verses, no the Hadiths I mentioned about them.
(3) can you please tell me what Khalifa means? When Allah Mentions it in the Quran?
​(4) You Ignored more than enough of my Question to make this false statement. 
(5) Please stop making false accusations.

(wasalam) 

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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No no no no no. The only person who sounds silly is YOU. I will continue letting you believe fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS.

I don't know what you mean regarding law of land??[/quote

What i mean is, according to both laws, religious and wordly, the one who accuses, has to justify and put evidence forward, not the accused. You are innocent until you are proven guilty. So sunshine, step up to the mark. You have seriously accused me, now you're running like hell and making excuses to hide behind. Prove to me through Quran and Sunnah, about your claim that, according to Islam, one must obey their parents.

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Brother just the truth, one question i already asked you and here it is again "wa ulul amre minkum" which words, from this part of the verse, mean, obey, those and in??? It's about time you stopped letting the Ahle Sunnah down, by starting to answer and discuss.

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Ok brother just the truth, was Abraham (as) put through a test by his Lord???

Did he pull through (pass) that test??

Was he not made the Imaam of the people???

Now there are 3 steps here,

Step 1: Abraham (as) was put through a test.

Step 2: Abraham (as) pulled through that test

Step 3: Abraham (as) was made Imaam.

Now brother tell me this, after being put through a test then, passing that test, was Abraham (as) promoted??? Was he Demoted??? Or was he given another title/grade/status of a similar level???

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Statement:

I totally agree, this should end now but I find it rather disturbing how you havnt condemned AMEEN for his tehreef of verse 4:59.

What TAhreef? Did he Change a verse in the Quran? I find it disturbing our you accuse me and other people of being ignorant, whilst you have not proven a single Ideals of your school of thought.

Statement:

Regarding the verses you've bought forward then I would love to refute them BUT there isn't really any point because we will only end up in this situation we are in regarding verse 4:59.

Which, you have not proven from the:

(1) Fact Aspect.

(2) Literature Aspect.

(3) the oppositions aspect.

Sorry so whats your point replying? tell me what is a debate to you? Can you give your Definition of a Proper debate?

Statement:

Imamate is not higher than nubuwwah bro you're mistaken. In what way is "imamah " higher in status than nubuwwah?? What do your imams have "extra" that prophets a.s don't?? They actually have less!! Bro a rasul is higher than a nabi because a rasul has a lot more work and responsibility and at most an imam has the same quality as a nabi because your imams did not bring anything new just like nabis. So common sense tells us that the qualities of an imam and nabi are the same but a rasul is higher than a nabi so he is higher than an imam. Ibrahim a.s was not "promoted" to be an "imam". There was no promotion involved but he was made a leader/imam just like any other prophet was the leader of his people. Statement:

Why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì "promote" a rasul to an imam when a rasul is higher than an imam??

Justthetruth, According to the definition given by out ulama, the Imamate or Vicegerency of Allah, is one of the fundamentals of Islam. We believe that the Imamate is the Vicegerency of Allah for all of creation and the Khilafat al-Rasul (successors of the Prophet) for this world and the hereafter. Therefore, it is obligatory for all mankind to follow its tenants in all matters, temporal as well as spiritual.

My statement is not confined to the Imamate of the Shi’as. Even your great ulama’ have the same belief. One of them is your famous commentator Qazi Baidhawi, who says in his ‘Minhaju'l-Usul’ in connection with the discussion on narrations of hadith, "The Imamate is one of the fundamental principles of the faith, whose denial and opposition leads to infidelity and innovation."

Mulla ‘Ali Qushachi says in ‘Sharh al-Tajrid’, "The Imamate is the general vicegerent of Allah for both the affairs of this world and religion, like the caliphate of the Prophet." And Qazi Ruzbahan, one of the most fanatical of your ulama’, points to the same meaning. He says: "The Imamate, according to the followers of Abu'l-Hasan Ash'ari, is the vicegerency of the Prophet of Islam for establishing the faith and safeguarding the interests of the Muslim community.

All the followers are bound in duty to comply with its dictates. Had the Imamate not been a part of the articles of the practice of the faith, the Prophet would not have said that 'Whosoever dies not knowing the Imam of his age, dies the death of ignorance.'"

This has been quoted by your distinguished ulama’, like Hamidi in ‘Jam'i-Bainu's-Sahihain’ and Mulla As'ad Taftazani in ‘Sharhe Aqa'id al-Nasafi’. Not knowing a single article of the practice of the faith would not be equivalent to ignorance stated by Baidhawi about not knowing the fundamentals, namely that ignorance of them is the cause of infidelity. Therefore, the Imamate is one of the fundamentals of the faith and is the completing stage of prophethood.

Hence, there is a vast difference between the concept of our Imamate, and those interpreted by you. You call your ‘ulama’ Imams, such as Imam Azam, and Imam Maliki. But, this is in the verbal sense. We also use the terms ‘Imam al-Juma'a, and ‘Imam al-Jama'at.

So there may be hundreds of Imams at one time, but in the technical sense in which we use the word "Imam," it means vicegerency of Allah. In this sense there is only one Imam at one time. The noble qualities of knowledge, magnanimity, valor, devotion to Allah, and piety have been perfected in him.

He surpasses humanity in all merits and occupies a state of infallibility. The world shall not be without such an Imam until the Day of Judgement. An Imam of such excellence is at the highest stage of spiritual attainment. Such an Imam is divinely commissioned and is appointed by the Holy Prophet. He surpasses all creation, including the prophets of the past.

You have not yet asked on what grounds I have made this statement, and therefore you say it is without reason. The best proof for my statement is the Holy Quran, which, narrating the life of the Prophet Abraham, says that, after giving him three tests (of life, wealth, and sons), Allah intended to make his rank more exalted.

Since prophethood and the title of Khalil (Friend) did not apparently warrant a higher rank, the office of Imamate was the only office of a higher order to which even a Prophet of Allah could be entrusted.

The Holy Qur'an says:

"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: 'Surely I will make you an Imam of men.' Abraham said: 'And of my offspring?' 'My covenant does not include the unjust,' He said." (2:124)

This verse, which indicates the position of the Imamate, also proves that the rank of the Imamate is superior to that of prophethood, since the position of the Prophet Abraham was raised from prophethood to the Imamate.

And now your going to tell me that I am Concluding that Imam Ali (a.s) is higher than the prophet Peace be upon him. Well I am not. I do not mean what you have concluded brother. As you know, there is a great difference between general prophethood, and special prophethood. The rank of the Imamate is higher than the rank of general prophethood, but lower than special prophethood. The last Prophet is the highest stage of special prophethood.

Is a prophet who was sent to guide 1,000 people equal to one who sent to guide 30,000 people or to one sent to guide all of humanity? Let's take an example. Is the teacher of first-grade students equal to a teacher of fourth-grade students? Are the teachers of higher classes equal to professors or university teachers?

All belong to the same administration and work under the same general program, their aim being to educate students. Yet, in view of the teacher's knowledge, they are not equal.

Each is different from the other according to his learning, ability, and achievement. From the point of view of the aim of prophethood, all the prophets of Allah are equal. However, because of differences in rank and knowledge, they are different. The Holy Qur'an says:

"We have made some of these Apostles to excel the others; among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank." (2:253)

Your own Jarullah Zamakhshari says in his Tafsir al-Kushshaf that the above verse means that our Prophet was superior in rank to all others because of his special merits, the most important of which was that he was the last of the prophets.

The perfection of humanity lies in the perfection of the soul. Moral and spiritual perfection cannot be attained without purifying the soul. This purification is impossible unless one is guided by the power of wisdom. One is then able to rise higher and higher with the force of knowledge, and right action until he reaches the acme of humanity, as has been explained by ‘Ali. He said: "Man has been created with the power of speech, which is the essence of humanity.

If speech is adorned with knowledge and action, it resembles the existence of the ethereal realm, which is the origin of man's creation.When his speech reaches the place of temperance and is cleared of all physical matter; it becomes one with the ethereal realm. Then it leaves the animal world and reaches the highest stage of humanity."

Man's power of articulation renders him superior to all existence. But there is one condition attached to it: that he cleanse his soul of all impurities with knowledge and right action. These two factors in man are like two wings of a bird, which fly higher according to the strength of the wings. Similarly, man's level of human attainment rises according to his knowledge, and right action. To pass beyond the province of animality and to reach the sphere of humanity depends upon the perfection of the soul.

The man who combines in himself the faculties of knowledge and right action and reaches the third of three classes of men (the common people, the elite, and the most elite), arrives at the lowest stage of prophethood. When such a man becomes the object of Allah's special attention, he becomes a prophet. Of course prophethood also has different stages. A prophet may reach the highest point in the highest of these three classes.

This rank is the highest in the sphere of possibility, which the sages call the First Wisdom, and which is the First Effect or the First Consequence. There is no rank higher than this in the realm of existence. This position is occupied by the last of the prophets, who is second to none except the First Cause. When the Prophet was raised to this highest stage, prophethood was concluded.

The Imamate is a stage lower than the highest stage of prophethood, but it is a stage higher than all other ranks of prophethood. Since ‘Ali was raised to the stage higher than prophethood and was one in spirit with the Holy Prophet, he was endowed with the office of the Imamate and was thus superior to all previous prophets.

Statement:

The job of a rasul cannot be done by an imam.

This is Invalid. So what your saying, when Allah Appointed Twelve Khalifas for Bani Israel, you as saying the people should not follow them. You are also concluding that they have no knowledge what so ever about the Religion. Therefore how can they Guide their Ummah? If a prophet dies, he must put someone in his place to guide the Ummah as he did. And Why would this be Difficult for Imam Ali (a.s)? when the prophet Appinted him? The prophet Also Says who ever Disobeys him, Disobeys me. So does that not make it clear that he is the guide after the prophet and the Wali of every Muslim? and If Wali is master or Ally, then what better way to refer to the prophet, by referring to his successor? and who he the prophet peace be upon him, told us to hold on to?

Statement:

So sorry the CONCEPT of shia Imamate does not exist in quran.

(1) No Proof of your statement what so ever.

(2) You have not Refuted the verses, no the Hadiths I mentioned about them.

(3) can you please tell me what Khalifa means? When Allah Mentions it in the Quran?

​(4) You Ignored more than enough of my Question to make this false statement.

(5) Please stop making false accusations.

(wasalam)

ULIL AMR

YOU SAID

What TAhreef? Did he Change a verse in the Quran? I find it disturbing our you accuse me and other people of being ignorant, whilst you have not proven a single Ideals of your school of thought

MY ANSWER

You're having a laugh, right?? If you read with your eyes wide open YES he is changing the verse. I know he's your shia brother but there's no need to defend him when he's doing tehreef. So don't even bother trying to defend him.

YOU SAID

Which, you have not proven from the:

(1) Fact Aspect.

(2) Literature Aspect.

(3) the oppositions aspect.

Sorry so whats your point replying? tell me what is a debate to you? Can you give your Definition of a Proper debate?

MY ANSWER

1. It's a fact that it does NOT say refer to ulil amr and since your "imams" were "appointed" so we could refer to them then this verse does NOT help you.

2. Literature aspect. Read nahj ul balagah letter 6. Actually let's run through it!!

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me.

SO THIS OBVIOUSLY MEANS SAHABA

Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me.

THIS IS VERY TRUE

And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.

SO HERE ALI a.s IS TELLING THEM THAT SHURA IS THE WAY TO CHOOSE A CALIPH AND IT IS THE APPROVAL AND PLEASURE OF Allah (swt).

If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him

SO THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ABU BAKR r.a DID SO WHATS WITH THE DOUBLE STANDARDS. IF ABU BAKR r.a WAS WRONG TO DECLARE WAR ON HIS OPPONENTS THEN SO IS ALI a.s.

ALSO DO YOU NOT FIND IT RATHER WIERD THAT ALI a.s FOUGHT FOR CALIPHATE AND NOT IMAMATE.

and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims , Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

HERE ALI a.s is telling Muawwiyah r.a that this is the right course to follow and if he refuses then Allah ( swt) WILL LET HIM WANDER IN HIS SCHISM.

SO THERE YOU GO. THOSE WHO FOLLOW ANOTHER COURSE WILL BE LEFT TO WANDER IN THERE SCHISM.

O Mu'awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-aggrandizement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like.

AND THE REST OF THE LETTER AMIR AL MOMINEEN a.s EXHONERATES HIMSELF AND REBUKES MUAWWIYAH r.a

3. Opposition aspect. Letter 6 and the fact that ayatollahs call themselves wali al amr ul MUSLIMEEN.

YOU SAID

Sorry so whats your point replying? tell me what is a debate to you? Can you give your Definition of a Proper debate?

MY ANSWER

1. Actually what's the point in you replying

2. A debate is a discussion between two or more parties.

On a serious note I don't know why you bothered replying regarding imamah and nubuwwah because you NEVER answered any questions BUT just repeated what was said by brother (wayfarer 786).

Bro lets start from scratch and work our way towards a "conclusion".

So first tell me which prophets a.s are your "imams" higher than? And why??

Dont copy and paste 200 pages just give me quick and simple answers.

I SAID THE FOLLOWING:

Statement:

The job of a rasul cannot be done by an imam.

YOU ANSWERED

This is Invalid. So what your saying, when Allah Appointed Twelve Khalifas for Bani Israel, you as saying the people should not follow them. You are also concluding that they have no knowledge what so ever about the Religion. Therefore how can they Guide their Ummah?..........................

MY ANSWER

You misunderstood my point. I will explain as this chat goes on.first tell me the difference between a:

Rasul

Nabi

Imam.

YOU SAID

(1) No Proof of your statement what so ever.

(2) You have not Refuted the verses, no the Hadiths I mentioned about them.

(3) can you please tell me what Khalifa means? When Allah Mentions it in the Quran?

​(4) You Ignored more than enough of my Question to make this false statement.

(5) Please stop making false accusations.

MY ANSWER

Oh!! Don't you worry we will see who has proof and who doesn't as this chat goes on.

As for what caliph means in quran then it's simple. It means leader and in quran prophets are referred to as caliphs.

No no no no no. The only person who sounds silly is YOU. I will continue letting you believe fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS.

I don't know what you mean regarding law of land??[/quote

What i mean is, according to both laws, religious and wordly, the one who accuses, has to justify and put evidence forward, not the accused. You are innocent until you are proven guilty. So sunshine, step up to the mark. You have seriously accused me, now you're running like hell and making excuses to hide behind. Prove to me through Quran and Sunnah, about your claim that, according to Islam, one must obey their parents.

AMEEN you're seriously a very lost individual. I can't believe that you don't believe obeying parents is something in islam.

Now read the below link and open up your brain

http://www.al-islam.org/greater_sins_complete/11.htm

Step up to the mark "sunshine" you're representing!!

Brother just the truth, one question i already asked you and here it is again "wa ulul amre minkum" which words, from this part of the verse, mean, obey, those and in??? It's about time you stopped letting the Ahle Sunnah down, by starting to answer and discuss.

Okay clever clog you tell me what you think wa ulil amre minkum means.

Ok brother just the truth, was Abraham (as) put through a test by his Lord???

Did he pull through (pass) that test??

Was he not made the Imaam of the people???

Now there are 3 steps here,

Step 1: Abraham (as) was put through a test.

Step 2: Abraham (as) pulled through that test

Step 3: Abraham (as) was made Imaam.

Now brother tell me this, after being put through a test then, passing that test, was Abraham (as) promoted??? Was he Demoted??? Or was he given another title/grade/status of a similar level???

I think it's better you stick to verse 4:59 before you make a mess of this verse too.

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Salaam,

If replies to a question begin to be given from all sides, every reply will raise another question and thus open the door for arguing.

And as the number of replies will further necessitate search for the real truth, detection of the correct reply will become more and more arduous, because everyone will try to have his reply accepted as correct as a result of which he will try to collect arguments from here and there to have his reply accepted as correct.

As a result of which the whole matter will become confused and this DEBATE will turn into an aimless one because of the multiplicity of interpretations!

423. Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib (a) said: One should endure like free people; otherwise, one should keep quite like the ignorant. Nahjul balagha - page 917

Correct if i an wrong salaam brothers

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Oh Mr just the truth, you are seriously one hell of a clown. My brain is already open and it's about time, you switched yours on, if you actually have one that is. I want you to back your claim through Quran and Sunnah that, according to Islam one should obey their parents. I want a precise verse from the Quran that, Allah has given a command to obey your parents. Come on hot shot, step up to the mark and back your claims or admit that you got it wrong.

You have accused me of tehreef but still haven't put the slightest evidence forward, to back your claim. So come on Mr, you have put an accusation forward but we're waiting to here your case. So when are you going to proceed??? And the rest is on the questions i asked you, which people can clearly see you just can't answer. You're really making yourself look very good here, aren't you??? You're right exactly where i want you and that is exactly where i want people to see you. You have to start answering and discussing, otherwise people will see you go down.

Salaam,

If replies to a question begin to be given from all sides, every reply will raise another question and thus open the door for arguing.

And as the number of replies will further necessitate search for the real truth, detection of the correct reply will become more and more arduous, because everyone will try to have his reply accepted as correct as a result of which he will try to collect arguments from here and there to have his reply accepted as correct.

As a result of which the whole matter will become confused and this DEBATE will turn into an aimless one because of the multiplicity of interpretations!

423. Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: One should endure like free people; otherwise, one should keep quite like the ignorant. Nahjul balagha - page 917

Correct if i an wrong salaam brothers

As you can see for yourself that, brother just the truth is starting to turn into a clown and he wants to turn this discussion, into a circus. The man is so stuck that, he is trying his best to survive in this discussion, by hanging on a thread. He has started to accuse and abuse to divert attention and has changed to sarcasm and insults because the poor fella has been hit with, so many questions and points that, he just can't answer and discuss. It's obvious he has to gain incredibly lost weight and the only way he can do that is, by the method he is using and that is, sarcasm, insults, divert attention, change subject, refuse to answer, making fun etc. Take a look for yourself. Has he answered??? Is he answering??? Witness it for yourself. This is exactly what i want people to see.

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Oh Mr just the truth, you are seriously one hell of a clown. My brain is already open and it's about time, you switched yours on, if you actually have one that is. I want you to back your claim through Quran and Sunnah that, according to Islam one should obey their parents. I want a precise verse from the Quran that, Allah has given a command to obey your parents. Come on hot shot, step up to the mark and back your claims or admit that you got it wrong.

You have accused me of tehreef but still haven't put the slightest evidence forward, to back your claim. So come on Mr, you have put an accusation forward but we're waiting to here your case. So when are you going to proceed??? And the rest is on the questions i asked you, which people can clearly see you just can't answer. You're really making yourself look very good here, aren't you??? You're right exactly where i want you and that is exactly where i want people to see you. You have to start answering and discussing, otherwise people will see you go down.

As you can see for yourself that, brother just the truth is starting to turn into a clown and he wants to turn this discussion, into a circus. The man is so stuck that, he is trying his best to survive in this discussion, by hanging on a thread. He has started to accuse and abuse to divert attention and has changed to sarcasm and insults because the poor fella has been hit with, so many questions and points that, he just can't answer and discuss. It's obvious he has to gain incredibly lost weight and the only way he can do that is, by the method he is using and that is, sarcasm, insults, divert attention, change subject, refuse to answer, making fun etc. Take a look for yourself. Has he answered??? Is he answering??? Witness it for yourself. This is exactly what i want people to see.

Listen mr bean the only reason I'm replying to you is because more than anything else you're entertaining that's all, you're just someone to make a good fool of.

Anyway I gave you the link so.....READ IT.

There is no PRECISE verse because obeying parents is not a FOUNDATION ie usul. So have that smarty pants.

First tell me why it does not say the word "those" in verse 4:59 then I PROMISE I WILL BRING YOU TRANSLATIONS OF VERSE 4:59.

Come on Sherlock step up your game

You also say you've got me exactly where you want to me!!

Where have you exactly got me?? Enlighten me!!

The only one whose got someone is me. I've got you on fee shayin and ther is no way out for you!!

AMEEN say what you like. YOU ARE GUILTY OF TEHREEF.

The only reason why I answer you in a sarcastic manner is because you're guilty of tehreef.

You do tehreef then call me the clown!!! WOW... You've got a nerve.

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You've accused me of tehreef and instead of proving it, you're making a fool out of yourself. Take a look at your posts and you will see your own reflection in it.

Edited by Ameen

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Oh no matee, i don't have the nerve. You accuse me of tehreef, you badly fail to prove then, you turn into a clown.

I'm guilty of tehreef and that's why you're sarcastic towards me. Wow! You love dancing to your own tune, don't you???

You haven't got me anywhere sunshine. "fee shay inn" means " in anything within this". Allah is saying that "if you disagree/differ in anything within this". Allah is speaking to the people right from the very start and that is exactly what he is doing here. He is speaking to the people. If the people disagree/differ with each other among themselves about the Ulul Amre. Use your head before you talk, think before you speak.

The place where i've exactly got you is, where you are unable to answer because you've been hit by questions, which have nocked your socks off. If not then, start answering because people what to know if you are a man or a mouse.

Here are some of the questions again, which have really frightened you, out of your witts. Was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or given a title of a similar level/grade??? Give me proof from Quran and Sunnah, where it says one must obey parents??? "Wa uUul Amre minkum"'which words mean obey, those and in??? Come on Mr Ahle Sunnah, show us what you're really made off.

Sunshine, you're all talk. You've just got a big mouth and that's just about it. You're just too big for your own boots.

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Oh no matee, i don't have the nerve. You accuse me of tehreef, you badly fail to prove then, you turn into a clown.

I'm guilty of tehreef and that's why you're sarcastic towards me. Wow! You love dancing to your own tune, don't you???

You haven't got me anywhere sunshine. "fee shay inn" means " in anything within this". Allah is saying that "if you disagree/differ in anything within this". Allah is speaking to the people right from the very start and that is exactly what he is doing here. He is speaking to the people. If the people disagree/differ with each other among themselves about the Ulul Amre. Use your head before you talk, think before you speak.

The place where i've exactly got you is, where you are unable to answer because you've been hit by questions, which have nocked your socks off. If not then, start answering because people what to know if you are a man or a mouse.

Here are some of the questions again, which have really frightened you, out of your witts. Was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or given a title of a similar level/grade??? Give me proof from Quran and Sunnah, where it says one must obey parents??? "Wa uUul Amre minkum"'which words mean obey, those and in??? Come on Mr Ahle Sunnah, show us what you're really made off.

Sunshine, you're all talk. You've just got a big mouth and that's just about it. You're just too big for your own boots.

Lol..... You're too funny!!

Now let's see your "questions"

1. Ibrahim a.s "promoted" "demoted"?? What is this none sense lol.

You tell me what's higher a rasul or an imam and I want to know why you think which one is higher??

2. Brain box did you read that link regarding obeying parents which is conditional yes or no?? And did you read my previous answer??

3. Firstly I never said it says "obey" so talk to the hand

Secondly are you really telling me that it dies not say "those" in that verse??

Thirdly you can say "in" or "with" it does not matter because the meaning of the verse does not change. So if I said "those in authority" or "those with authority" it's the same meaning because all we are told is that it says and those with/in authority. Just like you can say "in anything" or "about anything" the meaning doesn't change whereas you are changing the meaning if the verse by saying "WITHIN THIS".

I think the time has come to bring you proof from shia reference because YOU HAVE BORED ME OUT.

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and THOSE IN authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you (min kum).” (Qur’an 4:59).

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/imamate/obeying-ulil-amr.html

Read and weep friend lol.

Edited by Just the truth

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Sweety pie, never mind about reading and weeping, i don't need to do anything. I've asked you simple questions and you're constantly running away. What was Abraham (as) before he was put through the test???? Let me do you a favour and start answering them for you, as we go along because you are absolutely nothing but a bloody time waster. He was a Messenger and a Prophet.

Now Messengerhood is the first degree, lets call it B.A. Then he was also a Prophet. Would you agree that Prophecy is a higher status than Messengerhood??? Ofcourse you would because you've got no bloody choice. Now was Abraham (as) also an Imaam before he was put through the test??? The answer is no. Would you agree??? Yes you would because you've got no bloody choice. If you had a choice you would be answering and discussing like wild fire.

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Statement:
You're having a laugh, right?? If you read with your eyes wide open YES he is changing the verse. I know he's your shia brother but there's no need to defend him when he's doing tehreef. So don't even bother trying to defend him.

 

Your very Ignorant. One who has An opinion on a Particular verse is not Tahreef. Stop Lying brother. if this is your reasoning and logic, then everyone who gives their Opinion about a Particular verse is Tahreef. Infact to your false accusations this would mean the Sunni Translators who have different translations of a particular a verse, they are too doing Tahreef? your very Narrow. Tahreef of Quran is when a verse is Changed totally. That is Tahreef. You know very Well there is no Tahreef in the Quran. Use your logic brother.     


Statement:
Sorry so whats your point replying? tell me what is a debate to you? Can you give your Definition of a Proper debate? 

 

When a Form of Two parties apply them selves/ Engage into a Discussion based on rules and principles justified by the two opponents to acquire what we both parties desire, a consensus. My reason dear friend is to gain experience and not ignorance.      


Statement:
1. It's a fact that it does NOT say refer to ulil amr and since your "imams" were "appointed" so we could refer to them then this verse does NOT help you.

 

This is the same statement you made between page 17-19.  I gave you a reply on this issue and My Question to you was considering Hadith al Thaqlain and Manzila. I believe it was the Following:

 

 

 

 

I have explained this before. In My Stance, I do not claim that we cant refer to the Quran ( totally ) we can but we need  the prophet which we cannot refer in total form, Nor the ( Imams Totally) while you on the other hand claim that we should, so that is why I countered by imposing the same Question on you. Now Even if we have so much Ahadith about Certain verses and such, It is well known that we take most of our Ahadith from Ahlulbayt and you from the Companions, Now there is a major Difference. The prophet  (pbuh) has left his Ahlulbayt  (as) and the Quran as the two main Things which we should hold on to. Meaning that if we want to refer to that the prophet  (pbuh) said we must refer to Ahlulbayt (s) because they have the knowledge of the prophet (s), and this is clear then the prophet (s) said: " I am the City of knowledge and Ali (s) is its gate" can you not understand this? Ayone would understand that if we want the knowledge/or refer to the prophet through knowledge we must go through its Door, who we all know is Imam Ali (s), and Look at how many Haidths the prophet (s) said on Ali (s).

 
 

 

The prophet  (pbuh) Left two things that have complete Authority over us. The First is The book of Allah, and His Ahlulbayt  (as). So How can you prefer A So called Chosen Commander over Ahlullbayt  (as), And as I mentioned Earlier that The prophet  (pbuh) said, that Ali  (as) is the Wali of every Believer, So how can you prefer bukhari Over a Hadith which I mentioned that is not only Sahih but Mu[Edited Out]ir?


your second claim was that the Uli al amr were those who where chosen as commanders in the Wars the prophet  (pbuh) fought. And non other than Imam Ali  (as). You then seem to Switch tactics and go far by saying the Commander of Syriaa'n is the Uli al amr. Therefore now you claim the verse is limited, and obeying Allah and the prophet  (pbuh) is limited to that time? The verse no doubted is For All times, therefore you conclusion is false.

Don't forget the "WALI" has Authority over you and he is to be obeyed. 

 

how many Ahadith Where I mentioned that Imam Ali  (as) is the wali? you did/Were not even able to refute them.

I would like to see Good Refutations to the 5 points I made Earlier and the Previous reply.

and On http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016692-verse-459-ulil-amr/page-18   (post 432#, Post 434#, Post 436#, Post 441#)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Statement:

2. Literature aspect. Read nahj ul balagah letter 6. Actually let's run through it!!

 

I rejected this and your still Repeating the same Conclusion as you put forward before? What is your Logic behind this? Ironic, Let us take a look:  


Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me.  SO THIS OBVIOUSLY MEANS SAHABA Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. THIS IS VERY TRUE And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah.  SO HERE ALI a.s IS TELLING THEM THAT SHURA IS THE WAY TO CHOOSE A CALIPH AND IT IS THE APPROVAL AND PLEASURE OF Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him 
SO THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ABU BAKR r.a DID SO WHATS WITH THE DOUBLE STANDARDS. IF ABU BAKR r.a WAS WRONG TO DECLARE WAR ON HIS OPPONENTS THEN SO IS ALI a.s. ALSO DO YOU NOT FIND IT RATHER WIERD THAT ALI a.s FOUGHT FOR CALIPHATE AND NOT IMAMATE. and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims , Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism. HERE ALI a.s is telling Muawwiyah r.a that this is the right course to follow and if he refuses then Allah ( swt) WILL LET HIM WANDER IN HIS SCHISM. SO THERE YOU GO. THOSE WHO FOLLOW ANOTHER COURSE WILL BE LEFT TO WANDER IN THERE SCHISM. O Mu'awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-aggrandizement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like. AND THE REST OF THE LETTER AMIR AL MOMINEEN a.s EXHONERATES HIMSELF AND REBUKES
MUAWWIYAH r.a

 

 

 

Before I answer your Question, and don't worry I am not changing the subject like you always accuse me of

 

You cannot claim to love Imam Ali (a.s) and love the very person who fought against him and curses him as well. This show how much you respect the Ummiyah line. Very sad indeed just the truth. You love the very person who Who Fought the father of Imam Hussain (a.s),  Ra? Seriously? No brother. The prophet peace be upon him said: 

 

"Loving Ali is the sign of belief, and hating Ali is the sign of hypocrasy."

 

 

 

 

Sunni references:
- Sahih Muslim, v1, p48;
- Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643;
- Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142;
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128
- Tarikh al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 1, p202
- Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p185
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v14, p462

This tradition of Prophet was popular to the extent that some of the
companions used to say:

"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali."

Sunni references:
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition #1086
- al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p47
- al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v3, p242
- Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p91

 

 

 

 

So you love the person Who Abuses And fights Ahlulbayt (A.s) This how that you do not understand the position of Ahlulbayt nor will you acknowledge but you will refuse. 

 

Before I answer your Question on Letter 6, let me Continue:

 

 

Also Muslim in his Sahih narrated on the authority of Zirr that:

Ali ® said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a
promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.

- Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter XXXIV, p46, Tradition #141

 

 

So tell me just the Truth, What does this make Muwiayah? Does this make him Innocent or Guilty for fighting the Ahlulbayt? Who the prophet peace be upon him said if you hold on to them you will never go astray, the book of Allah and my Ahlulbayt. Tell me brother justthetruth, Did he tell us to fight Ahulbayt? or Hold on to them? Where is your logic? where is your Common reasoning? are they abandoned just to accept Muwayah as a Khalifa? tell me which side would you join? Muwiyah or Imam Ali (a.s)?

 

 

Abu Huraira narrated:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) looked toward Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husain, and Fatimah, and said: "I am in the state of war with those who will fight you, and in the state of peace with those who are peaceful to you."



Sunni references:
(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699
(2) Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52
(3) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149
(5) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p169
(6) al-Kabir, by Tabarani, v3, p30, also in al-Awsat
(7) Jamius Saghir, by al-Ibani, v2, p17
(8) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p137
(9) Sawai'q al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p221
(10) Talkhis, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p149
(11) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p25
(12) Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition #6145
(13) Others such as Ibn Habban, etc.

 
 
 
So brother Do we love the people who the prophet peace be upon him is in a state at war with them? When Muaiawiyah fought Imam Ali (a.s) He fought the prophet Peace be upon him and his Ahlulbayt. So how can you have the Guts to you R.a? To a Killer and a Mass Murder? Tell me? Give me a proper Answer and Stop Running.  So you love Muwiyah and hate Yazid? Brother if you love Muwiyah then you love Yaizd (LA). Tell me Who Put yazid On the Throne? Did his Father think he was the right one to lead the Ummah? Pathetic.
 
 
It is the well-known fact in the history that Muawiyah fought Imam Ali (S). And based on the above tradition of the Prophet(PBUH&HF) the Prophet has declared war on Muawiyah. How can we still love a person whom the Prophet has declared war on him?

The Messenger of Allah said:

"Whoever hurts Ali, has hurt me"


Sunni references:
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, p483
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p580, Tradition #981
- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p129
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p263
- Ibn Habban, Ibn Abd al-Barr, etc.


The Messenger of Allah said:

"Whoever reviles/curses Ali, has reviled/cursed me"


Sunni reference:
- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p121, who mentioned this tradition is
Authentic.
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, p323
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p594, Tradition #1011
- Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p130
- Mishkat al-Masabih, English version, Tradition #6092
- Tarikh al-Khulafa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p173
- and many others such as Tabarani, Abu Ya'la, etc.

 

 

 

Concerning Letter 6:

 

The First is the Imam Ali (a.s) Used this as a Hujja on Muwiyahia Concerning the Ba'aya for Imam Ali (a.s) as he Disproved of it, and this was during the war of Suffin. And Remember All of this was done to prevent it in the First Place. So in fact this does not prove that Shura was a Correct Method or that it was the right way.  So Muwiahya had no Hujja on Imam Ali (a.s) Since even some of the Ansar the Muhajreen gave Alliance to him, and even with the method of Shura, they did this is a manner which they thought was correct, and yt Muwiaiyah had not stance against this since his appointment is Invalid, since the Muhajareen and the Asnar (some of them) gave Alliance to Imam Ali (a.s). Yet no where in the letter did Imam Ali (a.s) say I approve of the Previous Khailafa of the three, not does he sau that he claims that Allah has approved of it. His Explaining to Muwiayah how to Muhajreen and the Asnar his appointment would be invalid compare to Imam Ali (a.s) where he is Righteous. if you Actually take the time and read the letter You find all that you have said is false as we read:

 

 

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

 

O Mu'awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-aggrandizement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like.

 

This Was Exactly the Hujja On Muwiyah which he cannot Ignore since Shura was done in that bases. That Allah Supposedly approve it. That's What the Muhajereen and the Ansar based upon and did on. So Imam Ali (a.s) did not say "It is Approved by Allah" or anything. he is stating the position of the Muhajreen and that ansar on what bases they did it on. So please stop taking things out of Context Dear brother, and you lets not forget Sunshine, you have not proved to be the Concept of Shura to Elect a Guide for the Ummah and the Quran? While Successorship is there and Shura is not. 

 


For Arabic readers ( To understand Why I mean..)

 وأما النص الذي يقول: ((فانه قد بايعني القوم...الخ))، فهو كتاب كان قد بعثه الإمام (ع) إلى معاوية وتحدث فيه وفق قاعدة الالزام، وهي القاعدة التي تستعمل في مقام الاحتجاج على الخصوم وإلزامهم بما ألزموا به أنفسهم من قبل..

بمعنى: إن كان معاوية يرى صحة الذين سبقوا الإمام (ع) بأن المسلمين قد بايعوهم، فما يكون لمعاوية بعد هذا إلا الانصياع للأمر الذي ألزم به نفسه ويبايع للإمام (ع) لأنه قد بايع الإمام (ع) القوم الذين بايعوا السابقين عليه، والا يكون حال معاوية ممن يتبع هواه وليس له أساس يستند عليه فيما يقول أو يفعل.
وهذا الكلام الصادر عن الإمام (ع) قد جرى وفق مقتضى الحال، وهي القاعدة البلاغية التي تلزم بالاتيان للمنكر بكل الوسائل الممكنة للإثبات، وقاعدة الالزام هنا هي أحدى الوسائل النافعة في المقام، بل وجدنا من يذكر هذا الإلزام بصريح العبارة عنه(ع). فقد روى الخطيب الخوارزمي الحنفي في كتابه (المناقب ص202) قائلاً: ومن كتب أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب (ع)، قبل نهضته إلى صفين، إلى معاوية، لأخذ الحجة عليه: أما بعد.. فإنه لزمتك بيعتي بالمدينة وأنت بالشام، لأنه بايعني القوم الذين...الخ.
وكذا قوله: ((إنما الشورى للمهاجرين والانصار...)) لا يتصور أحد أن هذا خلاف ما يعتقده (ع) أو تعتقده شيعته عن الخلافة بأنها تتم بالنص الالهي دون الشورى، وإنما كلامه (ع) قد ورد هنا وفق القاعدة التي أشرنا إليها قبل قليل. فكأن كلامه (ع) هنا هو: ان كنت يا معاوية لا ترى الخلافة بالنص الالهي، وإنها تتم عندك بالاختيار واجتماع أهل الحل والعقد، فأمرها لا يعدو المهاجرين والأنصار، فهم أهل الشورى، وها هم قد بايعوني كما بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان من قبل، فما كان لك يا معاوية أن ترد هذه البيعة أو تحتال عليها بأي حال.
وأما قوله (ع): ((فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسمّوه إماماً، كان ذلك لله رضا..)) فهو يشتمل على دلالة لطيفة، وهو أقرب للتعريض منه بالإقرار. فمن المعلوم أنه (ع) قد ناهض الخلفاء الثلاثة الذين سبقوه جمع كبير من المهاجرين والأنصار، كما هو الثابت تاريخياً في هذه القضية (انظر تاريخ الطبري 2: 445، وتاريخ ابن الأثير 2: 325، وتاريخ ابن كثير 5: 265).
ويشير (ع) إلى أنه الوحيد الذي اجتمع عليه المهاجرون والأنصار بأغلبية غالبة في المدينة، وقد قال (ع) يصف هذه الحالة في خطبة له: (( فما راعني إلا والناس كعرف الضبع إليَّ ينثالون عليَّ من كل جانب حتى لقد وطئ الحسنان، وشقَّ عطفاي، ومجتمعين حولي كربيضة الغنم)) (نهج البلاغة 1: 36).
ويقول في نص آخر: ((وبسطتم يدي فكففتها، ومددتموها فقبضتها، ثم تداككتم عليَّ تداك الإبل الهيم على حياضها يوم ورودها، حتى انقطعت النعل وسقط الرداء ووطئ الضعيف، وبلغ من سرور الناس ببيعتهم إياي أن ابتهج بها الصغير، وهدج إليها الكبير، وتحامل نحوها العليل، وحسرت إليها الكعاب)) (نهج البلاغة 2: 222).
قال أبو جعفر الاسكافي المعتزلي ـ المتوفى سنة 220هـ ـ في كتابه (المعيار والموازنة ص50): ((فلما قتل عثمان تداك الناس على علي بن أبي طالب بالرغبة والطلب له بعد أن أتوا مسجد رسول الله(ص) وحضر المهاجرون والأنصار واجمع رأيهم على علي بن أبي طالب بالاجماع منهم أنه أولى بها من غيره ، وأنه لا نظير له في زمانه، فقاموا إليه حتى استخرجوه من منزله، وقالوا له: أبسط يدك نبايعك. فقبضها ومدّوها، ولمّا رأى تداكهم عليه واجتماعهم، قال: لا أبايعكم إلا في مسجد النبي(ص) ظاهراً، فإن كرهني قوم لم أبايع، فأتى المسجد وخرج الناس إلى المسجد، ونادى مناديه.
فيروى عن ابن عباس أنّه قال: إنّي والله لمتخوّف أن يتكلم بعض السفهاء، أو من قتل عليّ أباه أو أخاه في مغازي رسول الله (ص)، فيقول: لا حاجة لنا بعلي بن أبي طالب، فيمتنع عن البيعة.
قال: فلم يتكلم أحد إلا بالتسليم والرضا)). (انتهى).
فكما ترى أن البيعة الوحيدة التي اجتمع عليها المهاجرون والأنصار بأغلبية غالبة كانت بيعته (ع) فهي الوحيدة التي لله فيها رضى ـ بحسب هذا النص الذي جئت به من (نهج البلاغة) ـ وهو الوحيد من الخلفاء الذي كان يسمى (إماماً).فتدبر.

;

 

 
 

 

 

Statement:
3. Opposition aspect. Letter 6 and the fact that ayatollahs call themselves wali al amr ul MUSLIMEEN.

 

(1) concerning Letter Six I replied to, before and above.
(2) Since you ignore My reply on this issue I will state it again:
 

 

 


According to this statement ('bayan') by Sayyid Haeri, Sayyid Khamenei is not the Wali of the people of Iraq:


السؤال الثالث : هل من الصحيح ما قد يقال من أنّ قائد الثورة الإسلاميّة في إيران سماحة آية الله العظمى السيّد عليّ الخامنئي"حفظه الله" قد تصدّى لممارسة الولاية بالفعل لشؤون الاُمة العراقيّة عن طريق نصب وليّ للعراق؟ 

الجواب : قد راجعناه ـ دام ظلّه ـ وسألناه عن ذلك فقال: "لم ولن اُعيّن وليّاً للعراق".


[source: http://www.alhaeri.o...at/bayan23.html]


This roughly translates to:

Question 3: Is it correct to say that the Leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran Ayatullah Al-Udhma Sayyid Ali Khamenei has established his Guardianship in the affairs of the Iraqi nation through his designation as Guardian of Iraq?

Answer: We consulted him and asked him about this and he said: 'I am not and have not been designated as Guardian of Iraq'.


so he cannot be Wali al amr For the Whole of Muslims, he is Wali al amr of the people who take him as a "marja" who knows Jurisprudence, and people When they want to know a certain law in Jurisprudence they would go back to him. Sins he is Higher then a Scholar. And the Title on his book, is for the People who Take him has a "marja" in Iran, or any where ells. Wali al amr in this aspect and not the Whole Ummah. He him self Acknowledges Imam Mahdi (a.s) to be the Imam of this Ummah. And Lets not forget you have not Brought any statement where he said " am the Wali of All Muslims" , so your Reasoning is Invalid.





Statement:
On a serious note I don't know why you bothered replying regarding imamah and nubuwwah because you NEVER answered any questions BUT just repeated what was said by brother (wayfarer 786).

 

(1) I have answered your Questions which proof.
(2) you claim this because you are not able to prove what is Authentic in your own book.
​(3) Your statements are Repeated throughout this Entire Dialogue.
 
 


Statement:
Bro lets start from scratch and work our way towards a "conclusion".

 

I said this long time ago, and you Ignored me by Continuing the Argument without proof. So to you there is not Conclusion unless it suits your beliefs.  

 

 

Statement:
So first tell me which prophets a.s are your "imams" higher than? And why??

 

I would not know so Really. But Surely many The Successor of the prophet Peace be upon him is Greater then Rest of the prophets Previous.

 

 

Statement:
Dont copy and paste 200 pages just give me quick and simple answers.

 

everything is Copied and pasted When it is long. yes? Well That is no reason to not to read brother.







Statement:
You misunderstood my point. I will explain as this chat goes on.first tell me the difference between a: Rasul Nabi  Imam.

 

And this is how we end up with "Skipped Questions". 

 

Statement:
Oh!! Don't you worry we will see who has proof and who doesn't as this chat goes on. As for what caliph means in quran then it's simple. It means leader and in quran prophets are referred to as caliphs.

 

(1) Where is your proof then?
(2) So to your Logic, The Word khalifa is used for prophets (a.s) Only? So this means, The Successor of Prophet Jesus Where not Khalifas? This means the Twelve Khalifas of Prophey Moses where not Khalifa? In the Quran they are Termed as "Caliphs" according to the Sunni translations. So this means That Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman are prophets? because they were khalfias? brother stop making up non sense.

 

 

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Sweety pie, never mind about reading and weeping, i don't need to do anything. I've asked you simple questions and you're constantly running away. What was Abraham (as) before he was put through the test???? Let me do you a favour and start answering them for you, as we go along because you are absolutely nothing but a bloody time waster. He was a Messenger and a Prophet.

Now Messengerhood is the first degree, lets call it B.A. Then he was also a Prophet. Would you agree that Prophecy is a higher status than Messengerhood??? Ofcourse you would because you've got no bloody choice. Now was Abraham (as) also an Imaam before he was put through the test??? The answer is no. Would you agree??? Yes you would because you've got no bloody choice. If you had a choice you would be answering and discussing like wild fire.

AMEEN first of stop running away from ulil amr verse I've replied to you WITH PROOF where it says THOSE and IN in the verse 4:59 now refute me OR get over yourself.

Also regarding Ibrahim a.s you don't have the slightest clue so it's best you don't talk about this verse.

You claim "imamah" is higher than nubuwwah WITHOUT any evidence.

Explain deeper and in order as to who is highest from the below 3.

Rasul

Nabi

Imam

Tell me in order 1, 2 and 3 as to who is higher and why.

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AMEEN first of stop running away from ulil amr verse I've replied to you WITH PROOF where it says THOSE and IN in the verse 4:59 now refute me OR get over yourself.

Also regarding Ibrahim a.s you don't have the slightest clue so it's best you don't talk about this verse.

You claim "imamah" is higher than nubuwwah WITHOUT any evidence.

Explain deeper and in order as to who is highest from the below 3.

Rasul

Nabi

Imam

Tell me in order 1, 2 and 3 as to who is higher and why.

 

 

 

We believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely- appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership. Note that here we are comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of persons. As such, two divinely appointed Imams which both have the highest possible position from Allah, may have different ranks. For instance, out of the twelve Imams of Ahlul-Bayt, Imam Ali (A.S) is the most virtuous. Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is more virtuous than Imam Ali (A.S) thought they were both appointed by Allah as leaders.

In other words, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is has the highest rank among mankind, and is the most virtuous creature of God and the most honored before Allah. The above belief does not undermine his position since Prophet Muhammad was an Imam during his time as well!

However, comparing the * duty * of prophet and Imam is like comparing apples and oranges or is like comparing the duty of a physician and an engineer. Imamat and prophethood are totally different functions though they may gather in one person such as Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Abraham,

peace be upon them.

Evidence from Quran

People who are familiar with Quran to some extent, know that this belief is not a weird-thing. In fact, Quran testifies that the position of Imamat is higher than the position of prophethood and messengership. Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said:

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind."

(Quran 2:124).

As we can see, Prophet Abraham was further tested by Allah during his prophethood, and when he successfully passed the tests (which were the test on his life, leaving his wife, sacrificing his son), he was granted the position of Imamat. This shows position of Imamat is higher in degree than prophethood which has been given to him later after acquiring more qualifications. Degrees are always granted in ascending order. We have not seen any person who got his Ph.D. degree first, and then gets his highschool diploma. At least in the administration of God there is no such mess! The first degree of Abraham, may the blessing of Allah be upon him, was becoming a servant of Allah ('Abd), then he became Prophet (Nabi), then he became Messenger (Rasul), then he became a Confident (Khalil), and then he finally became Imam.

By The Way, the above verse of Quran (2:124) proves that Allah assigns Imam, and the designation of Imam is not the business of people.

Below is the Sunni commentary of Yusuf Ali on the above verse (2:124):

Kalimat, literally "words", here used in the mystic sense of God's Will or Decree or Purpose. This verse may be taken to be the sum of the verses following. In everything Abraham fulfilled God's wish: he purified God's house; he built the sacred refuge of the Kaba; he submitted his will to God's (referring to sacrifice of his son)

He was promised the leadership of the world; he pleaded for his progeny, and his prayer was granted, with the limitation that if his progeny was false to God, God's promise did not reach the people who proved themselves false.

As we see, Quran clearly justifies the Shi'ite point of view in this matter. But again, since Prophet Abraham, Prophet Muhammad, and few others were also Imams, such belief (i.e., Imamat higher than prophethood) does not undermine their position.

Imam means a person who is appointed by God as a leader and as a guide (see Quran 21:73 and 32:24) to whom obedience is due, and whom people should follow. Messengers are Warners and Imams are Guides (13:7). Imams are the Stars of Guidance (6:97).

Muhammad (PBUH&HF) was a Prophet, a Messenger, and an Imam. By His death the door of prophethood and messengership was closed for ever. But the door of Imamat (leadership) remained open because he had successors (Caliphs; deputies). Successor means a person who succeeds the position of the previous one. It is the obvious that successors of Prophet Muhammad did not share anything about his position of prophethood and messengership. What remained for them was Imamat (leadership). And the number of these Imams are twelve as the Prophet himself testified. Also note that Quran clearly says that Imam and Caliph is assigned by God and this designation has nothing to do with people. For more evidence in the assignment of Imam by Allah, see the following verses of Quran: 38:20 (about David), 2:124 (about Abraham), 2:30 (about Adam), and 7:142, 20:29-36, 25:35 (about Aaron).

A Wahhabi contributor implied that the Shia are non-Muslims because they believe the above thing (Imamat higher than Messengership) while he did not present any single evidence from Quran and authentic Hadith against it. But I have presented a proof from Quran, and as such, better better be their own judge as to whether you are a Muslims or not. 

 

As for Angels, Muslims agree that the level of the prophets are higher than that of angels. Quran states that all angels prostrated Adam. This is enough to prove that the rank of the prophets is higher than that of angels. And based on the previous conclusion that the position of Imamat is

higher than that of prophethood, the position of Imamat will be higher than the rank of angels as well.

Evidence from Sunni Collections of Traditions

We further believe that the twelve Imams of the House of Prophet Muhammad have the rank higher than that of ALL the messengers (be Imam or

not) except Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). In other words, the Status of the successors of the Seal of the Prophets is higher than that of the

successors of all the previous prophets. (Note that the sucessors of the previous Prophets were themselves prophets). Need Sunni reference? Here are

some:

- Imam Ali (A.S) having the highest virtues of the early great Messengers:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "He who wants to see Noah (A.S) in his determination, Adam (A.S) in his knowledge, Abraham (A.S) in his clemency, Moses (A.S) in his intelligence and Jesus (A.S) in his religious devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib (A.S)."

Sunni references:

- Sahih al-Bayhaqi

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in

- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v2, p449

- Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the

Verse of Impreciation (Mubilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition

has been accpeted as all genuine.

- Ibn Batah has recorded it as a tradition related by Ibn Abbas as is

stated in the book "Fat'h al-Mulk al-Ali bi Sihah Hadith-e-Bab-e-

Madinat al-Ilm", p34, by Ahmed Ibn Muhammad Ibn Siddiq al-Hasani al-

Maghribi.

- Among those who have admitted that Imam Ali (A.S) is the store house

of the secrets of all the Prophets is the Chief of Gnostics, Muhi al-

Din al-Arabi, from whom al-Arif al-Sha'arni has copied it in his al-

Yuwaqit wa al-Jawahir (p172, topic 32).

- The Light (Noor) of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and Ali (A.S) preceded the

creation of Adam (A.S):

Salman al-Farsi (RA) narrated that:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: "I myself, and Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years

(14,000) before He created Adam (A.S). When Allah created Adam (A.S) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one

part Ali."

Sunni References:

- Mizan Al-Ei'tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235 (This is the same Person you used to reject the two Khalifas Hadith Remember?) @JusttheTurth.

- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154

- History of Ibn Asakir

 

 

Remark: "hand of Allah" means His power. The phrase "within the hands

of Allah" means in His presence, domain, realm, kingdom.

This clearly shows that the rank of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and Imam Ali (A.S) are better than any human being ever created by Allah.

- No one crosses the Path except by a passport from Ali (A.S):

Anas Ibn Malik narrated:

"When Abu Bakr neared death,..., Abu Bakr said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: That there is an obstacle on the Path which no one crosses unless with a passport (permission) from Ali Ibn Abi Talib (A.S). And I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: "I am the seal of the prophets and you, Ali, the seal of the Awliyaa."

Sunni references:

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v10, p356

- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195

Imam Ali (A.S) narrated:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: When Allah gathers the first-ones and the last-ones on the Day of Judgment, and the Path has been erected on the bridge of Hell, no one can cross it unless he had along proof of allegiance (Wilaya) to Ali Ibn Abi

Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2,

p172

- Ali (A.S) is the divider of People to Paradise and Hell:

"The prophet (PBUH&HF) said to Ali (A.S): You are the divider of Paradise and Hell on the Day of Judgment, you say to Hell: This one for me and that one for you."

Sunni reference: al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9,

subheading 2, p195

"Ali (A.S) said: I am the alloter/divider of Hell."

Sunni references:

- Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p402

- Radd al-Shams, by Shathan Al-Fudhaily

"The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) has said: Ali is the divider of

Hell."

Sunni reference: Kunooz Al-Haqa'iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92

And here is a poem from al-Shafi'i (one of the four Sunni Imams):

 

 

"Ali will judge mankind and allot them either paradise or hell.

He was the leader of men and Jinns, the true Testator of the Holy

Prophet. If the followers of Ali are 'Rafidhi' verily I am one of

that sect. Ali at the time of breaking of the symbols in the

Ka'ba put his feet on that shoulder where God had put his hand on

the 'Night of Mi'raj' and verily Ali was that into whose eyes

shone the light of God."

 

Do I need to comment?! Now look at what your master Umar said on the virtue of Imam Ali (A.S):

Umar Ibn al-Khattab said: "If all the seven planets, and the all the seven heavens are put in one scale of balance and the faith of Ali in the other, Ali's pan will turn the scales."

Sunni References:

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari

- Izalat al-Khifa Maqsad

- Ali (A.S) the best of people after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF):

"...Jabir said: The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: Ali is the best of humanity (after me), so whoever has doubt is a Kafir."

Sunni references:

- Kinooz Al-Haqa'iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p421

Here is another one:

...Zar quoting Abdullah, quoting Ali (A.S), that the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Whoever does not say that Ali is the best in my people, is a Kafir."

Sunni references:

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, p19

- Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p419

also Barida narrated:

The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said to Fatimah (A.S) that: "I gave you in marriage to the best in my Ummah, the most knowledgeable in them, the best in patience in them, and the first Muslim among them."

Sunni reference: Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p398

Now, let us now look at a future episode on the appearance of Imam Mahdi (A.S) (the last Imam of the House of the Prophet(PBUH&HF)). Sunnis have narrated in their authentic books that when Imam Mahdi (A.S) comes, Prophet Jesus (A.S) will descent and will pray behind him. This clearly shows that the rank of Imam Mahdi (A.S) is higher than that of Prophet Jesus who was one of the five greatest messengers of Allah. It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (RA) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them."

Sunni reference:

- Sahih Muslim, Arabic, part 2, p193

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 45,384

- Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p251

- Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p57

- Musnad, by Abu Ya'ala which provides another version of the tradition

with more clear words on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of

Allah said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to fight for the truth

until Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the Imam of them will

ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus replies:

 

"You have more right to it and verily Allah has honored some of you over others in this Ummah."

Ibn Abu Shaybah, another Sunni traditionist, and the mentor of al-Bukhari and Muslim, has reported several traditions about Imam al-Mahdi (A.S). He has also reported that the Imam of the Muslims who will lead Prophet Jesus in prayer is Imam al-Mahdi himself.

Jalaluddin al-Suyuti mentioned that: "I have heard some of the deniers of (truth) deny what has been conveyed about Jesus that when he descends will pray the Fajr prayer behind al-Mahdi. They say, Jesus has higher status than to pray behind a non-Prophet. This is a bizarre opinion since the issue of prayer of Jesus behind al-Mahdi has been proven strongly via numerous authentic traditions from the Messenger of Allah, who is the most truthful." And then al-Suyuti goes on narrating some of the traditions in this regard. (See Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al- Suyuti, p56).

Also al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned that:

"The Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus (PBUH&HF) will come down and pray behind him."

Sunni reference: Fat'h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362

This is also mentioned by another scholar, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, who

wrote:

"The Ahlul-Bayt are like the stars through whom we are guided in the right direction, and if the starts are taken away (or hidden) we would come face to face with the signs of the Almighty as promised (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). This will happen when the Mahdi will come, as mentioned in the traditions, and the Prophet Jesus will say his prayers behind him, the Dajjal will be slain, and then the signs of the Almighty will appear one after another."

Sunni reference: Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch 11, p91

All these clearly show that the rank of Imam Mahdi (A.S) is higher than that of Prophet Jesus (A.S) who was one of the five greatest messengers of Allah.

Are the Imams Inspired

There is no doubt that when the verse:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

the religion completed. Allah revealed Quran as well as the Shari'ah (Divine law) ONLY to the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and non of such things was revealed to Imam Ali (A.S). If Imam Ali was inspired (ILHAM) it had nothing to do with religious commandments; it was rather about what happened and what will happen.

There are many methods that Allah may inform His servants of something. One way is revelation (WAHY). The other way is inspiration (ILHAM). By inspiration, Allah induces the knowledge into the heart of His servant. This is unanimously held by the all the Islamic Schools.

But do you really think revelation (WAHY) is only for the prophets and the messengers? If yes, then you have contradicted Quran, for Quran confirms that Allah sent revelation (WAHY) to the mother of Moses. The mother of Moses was neither a prophet nor a messenger. Agreed? Allah revealed to her to leave her son in the river so that Pharaoh's soldier could take it to the Palace:

And We REVEALED to the mother of Moses: Suckle (thy child) but when

thou hast fears about him cast him into the river but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee and We shall make

him one of Our apostles. (Quran 28:7)

Notice that Quran straightforwardly uses the word WAHY (revelation). Here, Yusuf Ali has translated the word WAHY into inspiration. But Quran uses WAHY (revelation), and not ILHAM (inspiration). WAHY and ILHAM are two different things. However one thing which is clear is that the revelations to those who were neither prophet nor messenger, did NOT have anything to do with Shari'ah (divine law). It did NOT have anything to do with religious practices etc. Rather, It was an order to what way to choose at the time of confusion and/or informing what has happened or what will happen. So we can conclude that even revelation has different types. Only the revelation to Prophets and messengers is related to Shari'ah (divine law) and new religious practices, while others do NOT receive this type of revelation.

Remark: Quran also uses the word WAHY for non-human beings, but I am not concerned about that. I was focusing on different types of WAHY for human being only.

 

About our Imams: There are twelve Imams (Guides) after Prophet Muhammad

(PBUH&HF). Prophet mentioned that the number of his successors are twelve,

and al-Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad, ... recorded that.

The first of them, Imam Ali, got his knowledge of religion and the Divine Laws from Prophet Muhammad DIRECTLY. Later Imams got it from the preceding Imams. There was NO revelation of Divine Law (concerning oneself or people) after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). Allah may inform something to his appointed Imam, but the information is NOT any how related to Divine Law since the religion is complete. The information is only related to what happened and what will happen.

Do Imams Meet Angels? 

Also, according to Quran, talking to angels is NOT exclusive to prophets and messengers. Allah mentioned in Quran that Mary (the mother of Jesus) talked to angels, and angels talked to him. Look at Quran, to see the conversation of Mary and the angels:

"Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus the son of Mary held in

honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (Quran 3:45)"

There is a whole conversation between Mary and the angel. See a couple of verses before and after the above verse. Mary (A.S) was neither a prophet nor a messenger, yet she talked to angels. However the communication of Mary with angels had nothing to do with Shari'ah (Divine Law). It did not have anything to do with religious practices. Rather it was a news to what is about to happen, and instructions of what to do.

In this connection, also see verses 11:69-73 where angels talked to the wife of Abraham and gave her the glad tiding that she is pregnant of

prophet Isaac (A.S).

Even Sunnis claim that Imran Ibn al-Husayn al-Khuza'i (d. 52/672) who was one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF), was VISITED by angels, greeted by angels, SHOOK HANDS with angels and saw them, only being left by them for a short period after which the angels returned to him till the end of his life.

Sunni references:

(1) Sahih Muslim, V4, pp 47-48

(2) Also commentaries of Sahih Muslim by al-Nabawi, V8, P206, and by al-Abi

and al-Sanusi, V3, P361.

(3) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V4, PP 427-428

(4) Sunan Darimi, V2, P305

(5) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, V3, P472

(6) Tabaqat, by Ib Sa'd, V7, part 1, P6

(7) al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, V3, P1208

(8) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, V4, P138

(9) Jami'ul Usul, by Ibn Athir, V7, P551

(10) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V3, PP 26-27

(11) Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V8, P126

(12) Fathul al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V12, P261

(13) Sharh al-Mawahib, by al-Qastalani, V7, P133

There is no shadow of doubt that Imam Ali (A.S) was "Muhaddath" which means "a person who has been spoken to". Not only him, but also, all the twelve Imams as well as Lady Fatimah (A.S) were Muhaddath/Muhaddathah.

Based on the authentic Sunni traditions, it is narrated by Abu Huraira and Aisha that:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.675 (Arabic-English Version)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be ] 'Muhaddathun' (i.e. persons who can guess things that come true later on, like those persons have been inspired by a divine power), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.38 (Arabic-English Version)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Also:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "Verily among the nations before your time there have been Muhaddathoon (those who have been

spoken to), and if there is one among my people it is ..." Also the Messenger of Allah said: "Verily among the Children of Israel before your time there have been men who have been spoken to (rijalun yukallamoon) who were NOT prophets and if there is one among my people

it is ..."

Sunni reference:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic version, v4, p211, v5, p15, and also its

commentaries:

- Fat'h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v7, p324, v8, pp 49-51

- Umdatul Qari, by al-Ayni, v16, pp 55,198-199

- Irshad al-Sari, by Qastalani, v6, p103

- Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, part 7, p115, and its commentaries:

- Sharh Nawawi (sahih Muslim), part 15, p166

- Sharh al-Abi, part 6, pp 203-205

- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p622, and its commentaries:

- Aridah al-Ahwadhi, by Ibn al-Arabi, v13, pp 149-150

- Tuhfah al-Ahwadhi, by al-Mubarak Furi, v10, pp 182-183

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, p55

NOTE: I have deleted the name of the companion of the Prophet mentioned in

the above traditions since his being Muhaddath is not confirmed by the

Shia. Concerning the opinion of the Shia see al-Ghadir, by al-Amini, v5, pp

42-54, v8, pp 90-91.

It is mentioned in the above Sunni commentaries that the meaning of Muhaddath here is a person who is divinely inspired, who meets the angels

and is spoken to by them, and who is informed of the news of Ghayb (not to be confused with the knowledge of Ghayb which belongs to Allah only) which

is the information about the present time and the future, and that the companions who are mentioned in those traditions had these attributes!!!

The conclusion is that the existence of Muhaddathoon (those who are spoken to) is a matter attested by ALL Muslims and that it is not something

contrary to the fundamentals of Islam. The above Sunni documents also give evidence to the fact that Muhaddathoon are NOT prophets and they did NOT bring Shari'ah (divine law) from Allah to people.

Here are the defenitions of messenger, prophet, and Imam:

1. A Prophet (Nabi) is a person to whom the Divine Law (Shari'ah) descends;

this divine law may be concerned with beliefs (`aqa-id) or with

practical activities (Ibadat, like prayer). This Divine Law either

deals with the Nabi's OWN life or with that of his community; or both.

This is the fundamental definition of prophethood, though the prophet

may also be informed of other things. The descent of the Divine Law

(Shari'ah) may be direct, or through an intermediary like an angel.

2. A Human Messenger/Apostle (Rasool) is a Prophet who receives a Divine

Law that concerns himself AND people other than himself.

3. Imam means a person who is appointed by God as a leader and as a guide

(see Quran 21:73 and 32:24) to whom obedience is due, and whom people

should follow. Messengers are Warners and Imams are Guides (13:7). Imams

are the Stars of Guidance (6:97).

It is also interesting to remark about the time when the verse of the

completeness of religion was revealed. It should be quite surprising that

many Sunni scholars of Tafsir have confirmed that the verse:

"Today I have completed your religion and my bounty upon you, and I

was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

Was revealed in Ghadir Khum when the Messenger of Allah declared his

successor. Some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the

above verse of Quran in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

(1) al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19

(2) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra

(3) Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19

(4) History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75

(5) al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13

(6) Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80

(7) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213

(8) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115

(9) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authority

Abu Sa'id Khudri.

... and more.

The above verse clearly indicates that Islam without announcing the

leadership of Imam Ali was not complete, and perfection of religion was

due to announcement of the Prophet's immediate successor.

 

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We believe that the rank of Imamat (the position of a divinely- appointed leader) is higher than that of prophethood and messengership. Note that here we are comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of persons. As such, two divinely appointed Imams which both have the highest possible position from Allah, may have different ranks. For instance, out of the twelve Imams of Ahlul-Bayt, Imam Ali (A.S) is the most virtuous. Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is more virtuous than Imam Ali (A.S) thought they were both appointed by Allah as leaders.

In other words, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is has the highest rank among mankind, and is the most virtuous creature of God and the most honored before Allah. The above belief does not undermine his position since Prophet Muhammad was an Imam during his time as well!

However, comparing the * duty * of prophet and Imam is like comparing apples and oranges or is like comparing the duty of a physician and an engineer. Imamat and prophethood are totally different functions though they may gather in one person such as Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Abraham,

peace be upon them.

Evidence from Quran

People who are familiar with Quran to some extent, know that this belief is not a weird-thing. In fact, Quran testifies that the position of Imamat is higher than the position of prophethood and messengership. Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said:

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind."

(Quran 2:124).

As we can see, Prophet Abraham was further tested by Allah during his prophethood, and when he successfully passed the tests (which were the test on his life, leaving his wife, sacrificing his son), he was granted the position of Imamat. This shows position of Imamat is higher in degree than prophethood which has been given to him later after acquiring more qualifications. Degrees are always granted in ascending order. We have not seen any person who got his Ph.D. degree first, and then gets his highschool diploma. At least in the administration of God there is no such mess! The first degree of Abraham, may the blessing of Allah be upon him, was becoming a servant of Allah ('Abd), then he became Prophet (Nabi), then he became Messenger (Rasul), then he became a Confident (Khalil), and then he finally became Imam.

By The Way, the above verse of Quran (2:124) proves that Allah assigns Imam, and the designation of Imam is not the business of people.

Below is the Sunni commentary of Yusuf Ali on the above verse (2:124):

Kalimat, literally "words", here used in the mystic sense of God's Will or Decree or Purpose. This verse may be taken to be the sum of the verses following. In everything Abraham fulfilled God's wish: he purified God's house; he built the sacred refuge of the Kaba; he submitted his will to God's (referring to sacrifice of his son)

He was promised the leadership of the world; he pleaded for his progeny, and his prayer was granted, with the limitation that if his progeny was false to God, God's promise did not reach the people who proved themselves false.

As we see, Quran clearly justifies the Shi'ite point of view in this matter. But again, since Prophet Abraham, Prophet Muhammad, and few others were also Imams, such belief (i.e., Imamat higher than prophethood) does not undermine their position.

Imam means a person who is appointed by God as a leader and as a guide (see Quran 21:73 and 32:24) to whom obedience is due, and whom people should follow. Messengers are Warners and Imams are Guides (13:7). Imams are the Stars of Guidance (6:97).

Muhammad (PBUH&HF) was a Prophet, a Messenger, and an Imam. By His death the door of prophethood and messengership was closed for ever. But the door of Imamat (leadership) remained open because he had successors (Caliphs; deputies). Successor means a person who succeeds the position of the previous one. It is the obvious that successors of Prophet Muhammad did not share anything about his position of prophethood and messengership. What remained for them was Imamat (leadership). And the number of these Imams are twelve as the Prophet himself testified. Also note that Quran clearly says that Imam and Caliph is assigned by God and this designation has nothing to do with people. For more evidence in the assignment of Imam by Allah, see the following verses of Quran: 38:20 (about David), 2:124 (about Abraham), 2:30 (about Adam), and 7:142, 20:29-36, 25:35 (about Aaron).

A Wahhabi contributor implied that the Shia are non-Muslims because they believe the above thing (Imamat higher than Messengership) while he did not present any single evidence from Quran and authentic Hadith against it. But I have presented a proof from Quran, and as such, better better be their own judge as to whether you are a Muslims or not.

As for Angels, Muslims agree that the level of the prophets are higher than that of angels. Quran states that all angels prostrated Adam. This is enough to prove that the rank of the prophets is higher than that of angels. And based on the previous conclusion that the position of Imamat is

higher than that of prophethood, the position of Imamat will be higher than the rank of angels as well.

Evidence from Sunni Collections of Traditions

We further believe that the twelve Imams of the House of Prophet Muhammad have the rank higher than that of ALL the messengers (be Imam or

not) except Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). In other words, the Status of the successors of the Seal of the Prophets is higher than that of the

successors of all the previous prophets. (Note that the sucessors of the previous Prophets were themselves prophets). Need Sunni reference? Here are

some:

- Imam Ali (A.S) having the highest virtues of the early great Messengers:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "He who wants to see Noah (A.S) in his determination, Adam (A.S) in his knowledge, Abraham (A.S) in his clemency, Moses (A.S) in his intelligence and Jesus (A.S) in his religious devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib (A.S)."

Sunni references:

- Sahih al-Bayhaqi

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in

- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v2, p449

- Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the

Verse of Impreciation (Mubilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition

has been accpeted as all genuine.

- Ibn Batah has recorded it as a tradition related by Ibn Abbas as is

stated in the book "Fat'h al-Mulk al-Ali bi Sihah Hadith-e-Bab-e-

Madinat al-Ilm", p34, by Ahmed Ibn Muhammad Ibn Siddiq al-Hasani al-

Maghribi.

- Among those who have admitted that Imam Ali (A.S) is the store house

of the secrets of all the Prophets is the Chief of Gnostics, Muhi al-

Din al-Arabi, from whom al-Arif al-Sha'arni has copied it in his al-

Yuwaqit wa al-Jawahir (p172, topic 32).

- The Light (Noor) of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and Ali (A.S) preceded the

creation of Adam (A.S):

Salman al-Farsi (RA) narrated that:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: "I myself, and Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years

(14,000) before He created Adam (A.S). When Allah created Adam (A.S) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one

part Ali."

Sunni References:

- Mizan Al-Ei'tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235 (This is the same Person you used to reject the two Khalifas Hadith Remember?) @JusttheTurth.

- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154

- History of Ibn Asakir

Remark: "hand of Allah" means His power. The phrase "within the hands

of Allah" means in His presence, domain, realm, kingdom.

This clearly shows that the rank of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and Imam Ali (A.S) are better than any human being ever created by Allah.

- No one crosses the Path except by a passport from Ali (A.S):

Anas Ibn Malik narrated:

"When Abu Bakr neared death,..., Abu Bakr said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: That there is an obstacle on the Path which no one crosses unless with a passport (permission) from Ali Ibn Abi Talib (A.S). And I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: "I am the seal of the prophets and you, Ali, the seal of the Awliyaa."

Sunni references:

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v10, p356

- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195

Imam Ali (A.S) narrated:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: When Allah gathers the first-ones and the last-ones on the Day of Judgment, and the Path has been erected on the bridge of Hell, no one can cross it unless he had along proof of allegiance (Wilaya) to Ali Ibn Abi

Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2,

p172

- Ali (A.S) is the divider of People to Paradise and Hell:

"The prophet (PBUH&HF) said to Ali (A.S): You are the divider of Paradise and Hell on the Day of Judgment, you say to Hell: This one for me and that one for you."

Sunni reference: al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9,

subheading 2, p195

"Ali (A.S) said: I am the alloter/divider of Hell."

Sunni references:

- Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p402

- Radd al-Shams, by Shathan Al-Fudhaily

"The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) has said: Ali is the divider of

Hell."

Sunni reference: Kunooz Al-Haqa'iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92

And here is a poem from al-Shafi'i (one of the four Sunni Imams):

"Ali will judge mankind and allot them either paradise or hell.

He was the leader of men and Jinns, the true Testator of the Holy

Prophet. If the followers of Ali are 'Rafidhi' verily I am one of

that sect. Ali at the time of breaking of the symbols in the

Ka'ba put his feet on that shoulder where God had put his hand on

the 'Night of Mi'raj' and verily Ali was that into whose eyes

shone the light of God."

Do I need to comment?! Now look at what your master Umar said on the virtue of Imam Ali (A.S):

Umar Ibn al-Khattab said: "If all the seven planets, and the all the seven heavens are put in one scale of balance and the faith of Ali in the other, Ali's pan will turn the scales."

Sunni References:

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari

- Izalat al-Khifa Maqsad

- Ali (A.S) the best of people after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF):

"...Jabir said: The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: Ali is the best of humanity (after me), so whoever has doubt is a Kafir."

Sunni references:

- Kinooz Al-Haqa'iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p421

Here is another one:

...Zar quoting Abdullah, quoting Ali (A.S), that the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Whoever does not say that Ali is the best in my people, is a Kafir."

Sunni references:

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, p19

- Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p419

also Barida narrated:

The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said to Fatimah (A.S) that: "I gave you in marriage to the best in my Ummah, the most knowledgeable in them, the best in patience in them, and the first Muslim among them."

Sunni reference: Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p398

Now, let us now look at a future episode on the appearance of Imam Mahdi (A.S) (the last Imam of the House of the Prophet(PBUH&HF)). Sunnis have narrated in their authentic books that when Imam Mahdi (A.S) comes, Prophet Jesus (A.S) will descent and will pray behind him. This clearly shows that the rank of Imam Mahdi (A.S) is higher than that of Prophet Jesus who was one of the five greatest messengers of Allah. It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (RA) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them."

Sunni reference:

- Sahih Muslim, Arabic, part 2, p193

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 45,384

- Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p251

- Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p57

- Musnad, by Abu Ya'ala which provides another version of the tradition

with more clear words on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of

Allah said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to fight for the truth

until Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the Imam of them will

ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus replies:

"You have more right to it and verily Allah has honored some of you over others in this Ummah."

Ibn Abu Shaybah, another Sunni traditionist, and the mentor of al-Bukhari and Muslim, has reported several traditions about Imam al-Mahdi (A.S). He has also reported that the Imam of the Muslims who will lead Prophet Jesus in prayer is Imam al-Mahdi himself.

Jalaluddin al-Suyuti mentioned that: "I have heard some of the deniers of (truth) deny what has been conveyed about Jesus that when he descends will pray the Fajr prayer behind al-Mahdi. They say, Jesus has higher status than to pray behind a non-Prophet. This is a bizarre opinion since the issue of prayer of Jesus behind al-Mahdi has been proven strongly via numerous authentic traditions from the Messenger of Allah, who is the most truthful." And then al-Suyuti goes on narrating some of the traditions in this regard. (See Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al- Suyuti, p56).

Also al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned that:

"The Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus (PBUH&HF) will come down and pray behind him."

Sunni reference: Fat'h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362

This is also mentioned by another scholar, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, who

wrote:

"The Ahlul-Bayt are like the stars through whom we are guided in the right direction, and if the starts are taken away (or hidden) we would come face to face with the signs of the Almighty as promised (i.e., the Day of Resurrection). This will happen when the Mahdi will come, as mentioned in the traditions, and the Prophet Jesus will say his prayers behind him, the Dajjal will be slain, and then the signs of the Almighty will appear one after another."

Sunni reference: Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch 11, p91

All these clearly show that the rank of Imam Mahdi (A.S) is higher than that of Prophet Jesus (A.S) who was one of the five greatest messengers of Allah.

Are the Imams Inspired

There is no doubt that when the verse:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

the religion completed. Allah revealed Quran as well as the Shari'ah (Divine law) ONLY to the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and non of such things was revealed to Imam Ali (A.S). If Imam Ali was inspired (ILHAM) it had nothing to do with religious commandments; it was rather about what happened and what will happen.

There are many methods that Allah may inform His servants of something. One way is revelation (WAHY). The other way is inspiration (ILHAM). By inspiration, Allah induces the knowledge into the heart of His servant. This is unanimously held by the all the Islamic Schools.

But do you really think revelation (WAHY) is only for the prophets and the messengers? If yes, then you have contradicted Quran, for Quran confirms that Allah sent revelation (WAHY) to the mother of Moses. The mother of Moses was neither a prophet nor a messenger. Agreed? Allah revealed to her to leave her son in the river so that Pharaoh's soldier could take it to the Palace:

And We REVEALED to the mother of Moses: Suckle (thy child) but when

thou hast fears about him cast him into the river but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee and We shall make

him one of Our apostles. (Quran 28:7)

Notice that Quran straightforwardly uses the word WAHY (revelation). Here, Yusuf Ali has translated the word WAHY into inspiration. But Quran uses WAHY (revelation), and not ILHAM (inspiration). WAHY and ILHAM are two different things. However one thing which is clear is that the revelations to those who were neither prophet nor messenger, did NOT have anything to do with Shari'ah (divine law). It did NOT have anything to do with religious practices etc. Rather, It was an order to what way to choose at the time of confusion and/or informing what has happened or what will happen. So we can conclude that even revelation has different types. Only the revelation to Prophets and messengers is related to Shari'ah (divine law) and new religious practices, while others do NOT receive this type of revelation.

Remark: Quran also uses the word WAHY for non-human beings, but I am not concerned about that. I was focusing on different types of WAHY for human being only.

About our Imams: There are twelve Imams (Guides) after Prophet Muhammad

(PBUH&HF). Prophet mentioned that the number of his successors are twelve,

and al-Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad, ... recorded that.

The first of them, Imam Ali, got his knowledge of religion and the Divine Laws from Prophet Muhammad DIRECTLY. Later Imams got it from the preceding Imams. There was NO revelation of Divine Law (concerning oneself or people) after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). Allah may inform something to his appointed Imam, but the information is NOT any how related to Divine Law since the religion is complete. The information is only related to what happened and what will happen.

Do Imams Meet Angels?

Also, according to Quran, talking to angels is NOT exclusive to prophets and messengers. Allah mentioned in Quran that Mary (the mother of Jesus) talked to angels, and angels talked to him. Look at Quran, to see the conversation of Mary and the angels:

"Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus the son of Mary held in

honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (Quran 3:45)"

There is a whole conversation between Mary and the angel. See a couple of verses before and after the above verse. Mary (A.S) was neither a prophet nor a messenger, yet she talked to angels. However the communication of Mary with angels had nothing to do with Shari'ah (Divine Law). It did not have anything to do with religious practices. Rather it was a news to what is about to happen, and instructions of what to do.

In this connection, also see verses 11:69-73 where angels talked to the wife of Abraham and gave her the glad tiding that she is pregnant of

prophet Isaac (A.S).

Even Sunnis claim that Imran Ibn al-Husayn al-Khuza'i (d. 52/672) who was one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF), was VISITED by angels, greeted by angels, SHOOK HANDS with angels and saw them, only being left by them for a short period after which the angels returned to him till the end of his life.

Sunni references:

(1) Sahih Muslim, V4, pp 47-48

(2) Also commentaries of Sahih Muslim by al-Nabawi, V8, P206, and by al-Abi

and al-Sanusi, V3, P361.

(3) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V4, PP 427-428

(4) Sunan Darimi, V2, P305

(5) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, V3, P472

(6) Tabaqat, by Ib Sa'd, V7, part 1, P6

(7) al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, V3, P1208

(8) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, V4, P138

(9) Jami'ul Usul, by Ibn Athir, V7, P551

(10) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V3, PP 26-27

(11) Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V8, P126

(12) Fathul al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V12, P261

(13) Sharh al-Mawahib, by al-Qastalani, V7, P133

There is no shadow of doubt that Imam Ali (A.S) was "Muhaddath" which means "a person who has been spoken to". Not only him, but also, all the twelve Imams as well as Lady Fatimah (A.S) were Muhaddath/Muhaddathah.

Based on the authentic Sunni traditions, it is narrated by Abu Huraira and Aisha that:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.675 (Arabic-English Version)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be ] 'Muhaddathun' (i.e. persons who can guess things that come true later on, like those persons have been inspired by a divine power), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.38 (Arabic-English Version)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Also:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "Verily among the nations before your time there have been Muhaddathoon (those who have been

spoken to), and if there is one among my people it is ..." Also the Messenger of Allah said: "Verily among the Children of Israel before your time there have been men who have been spoken to (rijalun yukallamoon) who were NOT prophets and if there is one among my people

it is ..."

Sunni reference:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic version, v4, p211, v5, p15, and also its

commentaries:

- Fat'h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v7, p324, v8, pp 49-51

- Umdatul Qari, by al-Ayni, v16, pp 55,198-199

- Irshad al-Sari, by Qastalani, v6, p103

- Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, part 7, p115, and its commentaries:

- Sharh Nawawi (sahih Muslim), part 15, p166

- Sharh al-Abi, part 6, pp 203-205

- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p622, and its commentaries:

- Aridah al-Ahwadhi, by Ibn al-Arabi, v13, pp 149-150

- Tuhfah al-Ahwadhi, by al-Mubarak Furi, v10, pp 182-183

- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, p55

NOTE: I have deleted the name of the companion of the Prophet mentioned in

the above traditions since his being Muhaddath is not confirmed by the

Shia. Concerning the opinion of the Shia see al-Ghadir, by al-Amini, v5, pp

42-54, v8, pp 90-91.

It is mentioned in the above Sunni commentaries that the meaning of Muhaddath here is a person who is divinely inspired, who meets the angels

and is spoken to by them, and who is informed of the news of Ghayb (not to be confused with the knowledge of Ghayb which belongs to Allah only) which

is the information about the present time and the future, and that the companions who are mentioned in those traditions had these attributes!!!

The conclusion is that the existence of Muhaddathoon (those who are spoken to) is a matter attested by ALL Muslims and that it is not something

contrary to the fundamentals of Islam. The above Sunni documents also give evidence to the fact that Muhaddathoon are NOT prophets and they did NOT bring Shari'ah (divine law) from Allah to people.

Here are the defenitions of messenger, prophet, and Imam:

1. A Prophet (Nabi) is a person to whom the Divine Law (Shari'ah) descends;

this divine law may be concerned with beliefs (`aqa-id) or with

practical activities (Ibadat, like prayer). This Divine Law either

deals with the Nabi's OWN life or with that of his community; or both.

This is the fundamental definition of prophethood, though the prophet

may also be informed of other things. The descent of the Divine Law

(Shari'ah) may be direct, or through an intermediary like an angel.

2. A Human Messenger/Apostle (Rasool) is a Prophet who receives a Divine

Law that concerns himself AND people other than himself.

3. Imam means a person who is appointed by God as a leader and as a guide

(see Quran 21:73 and 32:24) to whom obedience is due, and whom people

should follow. Messengers are Warners and Imams are Guides (13:7). Imams

are the Stars of Guidance (6:97).

It is also interesting to remark about the time when the verse of the

completeness of religion was revealed. It should be quite surprising that

many Sunni scholars of Tafsir have confirmed that the verse:

"Today I have completed your religion and my bounty upon you, and I

was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

Was revealed in Ghadir Khum when the Messenger of Allah declared his

successor. Some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the

above verse of Quran in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

(1) al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19

(2) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra

(3) Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19

(4) History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75

(5) al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13

(6) Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80

(7) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213

(8) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115

(9) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authority

Abu Sa'id Khudri.

... and more.

The above verse clearly indicates that Islam without announcing the

leadership of Imam Ali was not complete, and perfection of religion was

due to announcement of the Prophet's immediate successor.

Firstly reply to ulil amr. I will reply to your above "copy and paste" later when I get the chance

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He's always looking for some kind of excuse not to reply or answer.

I've asked, just the truth, so many questions but all you get is excuses. He will either turn things around or just turn the subject.

AMEEN stop running away. I've given you a reply regarding ulil amr and you havnt replie. STOP BLOWING YOUR OWN TRUMPET.

I will repost the reply below

Lol..... You're too funny!!

Now let's see your "questions"

1. Ibrahim a.s "promoted" "demoted"?? What is this none sense lol.

You tell me what's higher a rasul or an imam and I want to know why you think which one is higher??

2. Brain box did you read that link regarding obeying parents which is conditional yes or no?? And did you read my previous answer??

3. Firstly I never said it says "obey" so talk to the hand

Secondly are you really telling me that it dies not say "those" in that verse??

Thirdly you can say "in" or "with" it does not matter because the meaning of the verse does not change. So if I said "those in authority" or "those with authority" it's the same meaning because all we are told is that it says and those with/in authority. Just like you can say "in anything" or "about anything" the meaning doesn't change whereas you are changing the meaning if the verse by saying "WITHIN THIS".

I think the time has come to bring you proof from shia reference because YOU HAVE BORED ME OUT.

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and THOSE IN authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you (min kum).” (Qur’an 4:59).

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/imamate/obeying-ulil-amr.html

Read and weep friend lol.

AMEEN reply to the above

The ISLAMIC history I'm writing your reply stay patient. Your reply was long so it will take me till tomorrow or Monday to reply

Edited by Just the truth

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i've made it very clear to you that Allah is speaking to the people, all the way through the ulul amre verse and he is speaking about the ulul amre to the people.

Here we go again, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who are worthy of authority among you".

If you pay close attention and take an even closer look, then you will find that "wa ulul amre minkum" means "and those who are worthy of authority among you".

If the meaning was "and those who are in authority among you then "fee" would have been used and this part of the verse would have been as follow "wa fil amre minkum".

My dear sarcastic brother "ulul amre" means "worthy of authority" and "fil amre" means "in authority".

I sugest you shake off your arogance and ignorance and start using sense and logic, rather than what you have been told by your school of thought and that is not using your brain, since it will confuse and mislead you.

Once again "fee" would mean "in" and "fil amre" would mean "in authority" therefore "wa fil amre minkum" would mean "and those who are in authority among you" but we don't have that, do we?? What we have is "ulul amre" and this

means "sahib-e-amre", "worthy of authority".

Edited by Ameen

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i've made it very clear to you that Allah is speaking to the people, all the way through the ulul amre verse and he is speaking about the ulul amre to the people.

Here we go again, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who are worthy of authority among you".

If you pay close attention and take an even closer look, then you will find that "wa ulul amre minkum" means "and those who are worthy of authority among you".

If the meaning was "and those who are in authority among you then "fee" would have been used and this part of the verse would have been as follow "wa fil amre minkum".

My dear sarcastic brother "ulul amre" means "worthy of authority" and "fil amre" means "in authority".

I sugest you shake off your arogance and ignorance and start using sense and logic, rather than what you have been told by your school of thought and that is not using your brain, since it will confuse and mislead you.

Once again "fee" would mean "in" and "fil amre" would mean "in authority" therefore "wa fil amre minkum" would mean "and those who are in authority among you" but we don't have that, do we?? What we have is "ulul amre" and this

means "sahib-e-amre", "worthy of authority".

Stop beating round the bush and bring me a translation which says:

In anything WITHIN THIS for fee shayin

and....

Where it says "worthy".

Bring me a translation from a reliable link.

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Brother islam history and ameen. I praise you for your efforts. But what would the holy 14 reply to just the truth and how?

By the way i dont agree with immamate being a higher status then our prophets. But in saying that, they do have a high stature amongst our followers but not as high as prophets of Allah swt...it makes sense bro...with all due respect..

But everything else i agree with you guys.

NOW

There are some people where you can turn and switch all the lights on in the room but the HEART remains dark. May god guide all of us on the right path.

Now lets see a few hadiths that can liven up this forum and make it a little tasty. And lets not go too far, we will narrate from just the truths books.

The Messenger of Allah ( Pbuh&HF) said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate."

Sunni references:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226, Chapter of the Virtues of Ali, narrated on the authority of two reliable reporters: one, Ibn Abbas, whose report has been transmitted through two different but chain of authorities, and the other, Jabir Ibn Abdullah al-Ansari. He said this tradition is Authentic (Sahih).

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081

Jami' al-Saghir, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v1, pp 107,374; Also in Jami' al-Jawami'; Also in Tarikh al-Khulafaa, p171. He said this tradition is accepted (Hasan).

al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani (d. 360); Also in al-Awsat

Ma'rifah al-Sahaba, by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani

Ihyaa al-Ululm, by al-Ghazzali

History of Ibn Kathir, v7, p358

History of Ibn Asakir

Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v2, p337; v4, p348; v7, p173; v11, pp 48-50; v13, p204

Abu Huraira narrated:

The Prophet ( Pbuh&HF) looked toward Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husain, and Fatimah, and said: "I am in the state of war with those who will fight

you, and in the state of peace with those who are peaceful to you."

Sunni references:

(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699

(2) Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52

(3) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350

(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149

(5) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p169

(6) al-Kabir, by Tabarani, v3, p30, also in al-Awsat

(7) Jamius Saghir, by al-Ibani, v2, p17

(8) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p137

(9) Sawai'q al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p221

(10) Talkhis, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p149

(11) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p25

(12) Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition #6145 (13) Others such as Ibn Habban, etc.

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

Sunni References:

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700 (2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71

(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12

(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174

(5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16

(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

The Messenger of Allah ( pbuh&HF) said: "He who wants to see Noah

in his determination, Adam in his knowledge, Abraham in

his clemency, Moses in his intelligence and Jesus in his religious

devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib ." Sunni references:

Sahih al-Bayhaqi

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in

Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v2, p449

Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the Verse of Imprecation (Mubahilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition has been accepted as all

And theres many more..

Hope i shed some light on all.

Salaam

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Brother islam history and ameen. I praise you for your efforts. But what would the holy 14 reply to just the truth and how?

By the way i dont agree with immamate being a higher status then our prophets. But in saying that, they do have a high stature amongst our followers but not as high as prophets of Allah swt...it makes sense bro...with all due respect..

But everything else i agree with you guys.

NOW

There are some people where you can turn and switch all the lights on in the room but the HEART remains dark. May god guide all of us on the right path.

Now lets see a few hadiths that can liven up this forum and make it a little tasty. And lets not go too far, we will narrate from just the truths books.

The Messenger of Allah ( Pbuh&HF) said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate."

Sunni references:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226, Chapter of the Virtues of Ali, narrated on the authority of two reliable reporters: one, Ibn Abbas, whose report has been transmitted through two different but chain of authorities, and the other, Jabir Ibn Abdullah al-Ansari. He said this tradition is Authentic (Sahih).

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081

Jami' al-Saghir, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v1, pp 107,374; Also in Jami' al-Jawami'; Also in Tarikh al-Khulafaa, p171. He said this tradition is accepted (Hasan).

al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani (d. 360); Also in al-Awsat

Ma'rifah al-Sahaba, by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani

Ihyaa al-Ululm, by al-Ghazzali

History of Ibn Kathir, v7, p358

History of Ibn Asakir

Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v2, p337; v4, p348; v7, p173; v11, pp 48-50; v13, p204

Abu Huraira narrated:

The Prophet ( Pbuh&HF) looked toward Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husain, and Fatimah, and said: "I am in the state of war with those who will fight

you, and in the state of peace with those who are peaceful to you."

Sunni references:

(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699

(2) Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52

(3) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350

(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149

(5) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p169

(6) al-Kabir, by Tabarani, v3, p30, also in al-Awsat

(7) Jamius Saghir, by al-Ibani, v2, p17

(8) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p137

(9) Sawai'q al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p221

(10) Talkhis, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p149

(11) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p25

(12) Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition #6145 (13) Others such as Ibn Habban, etc.

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

Sunni References:

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700 (2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71

(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12

(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174

(5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16

(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

The Messenger of Allah ( pbuh&HF) said: "He who wants to see Noah

in his determination, Adam in his knowledge, Abraham in

his clemency, Moses in his intelligence and Jesus in his religious

devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib ." Sunni references:

Sahih al-Bayhaqi

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in

Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v2, p449

Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the Verse of Imprecation (Mubahilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition has been accepted as all

And theres many more..

Hope i shed some light on all.

Salaam

 

Brother islam history and ameen. I praise you for your efforts. But what would the holy 14 reply to just the truth and how?

By the way i dont agree with immamate being a higher status then our prophets. But in saying that, they do have a high stature amongst our followers but not as high as prophets of Allah swt...it makes sense bro...with all due respect..

But everything else i agree with you guys.

NOW

There are some people where you can turn and switch all the lights on in the room but the HEART remains dark. May god guide all of us on the right path.

Now lets see a few hadiths that can liven up this forum and make it a little tasty. And lets not go too far, we will narrate from just the truths books.

The Messenger of Allah ( Pbuh&HF) said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate."

Sunni references:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226, Chapter of the Virtues of Ali, narrated on the authority of two reliable reporters: one, Ibn Abbas, whose report has been transmitted through two different but chain of authorities, and the other, Jabir Ibn Abdullah al-Ansari. He said this tradition is Authentic (Sahih).

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081

Jami' al-Saghir, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v1, pp 107,374; Also in Jami' al-Jawami'; Also in Tarikh al-Khulafaa, p171. He said this tradition is accepted (Hasan).

al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani (d. 360); Also in al-Awsat

Ma'rifah al-Sahaba, by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani

Ihyaa al-Ululm, by al-Ghazzali

History of Ibn Kathir, v7, p358

History of Ibn Asakir

Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v2, p337; v4, p348; v7, p173; v11, pp 48-50; v13, p204

Abu Huraira narrated:

The Prophet ( Pbuh&HF) looked toward Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husain, and Fatimah, and said: "I am in the state of war with those who will fight

you, and in the state of peace with those who are peaceful to you."

Sunni references:

(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699

(2) Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52

(3) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350

(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149

(5) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p169

(6) al-Kabir, by Tabarani, v3, p30, also in al-Awsat

(7) Jamius Saghir, by al-Ibani, v2, p17

(8) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p137

(9) Sawai'q al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p221

(10) Talkhis, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p149

(11) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p25

(12) Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition #6145 (13) Others such as Ibn Habban, etc.

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

Sunni References:

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700 (2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71

(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12

(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174

(5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16

(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

The Messenger of Allah ( pbuh&HF) said: "He who wants to see Noah

in his determination, Adam in his knowledge, Abraham in

his clemency, Moses in his intelligence and Jesus in his religious

devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib ." Sunni references:

Sahih al-Bayhaqi

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in

Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v2, p449

Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the Verse of Imprecation (Mubahilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition has been accepted as all

And theres many more..

Hope i shed some light on all.

Salaam

 

 

We meant actually higher in (Duty) and not in Status. No doubt That Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is greater Then All. I thank you for your Efforts as well. Understanding whats Fundamental in Islam is a Crucial aspect.

(wasalam)   

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Brother just the truth, you have accused me of tehreef, which you are now finding it difficult to prove. My advice to you is, think and be sure before you speak and when you do then, be ready to back it up and prove it.

For your information translation and meaning are two completely different things. If you accuse me of tehreef, just because of "with in" then i have said to you and i will say it again, bring me a translation where "wa ulul amre minkum" translates "and obey those who are in authority among you" and then explain and prove to me, which words from "wa ulul amre minkum" translate obey, those and in??? Come on budy!

And let me repeat my self again "ulul amre" means "worthy of authority". The word "ulul" means "worthy" and "amre" means "authority". In Urdu this would mean "sahib-e-amre" not "hakim-e-waqth". The term "sahib-e-amre" means "some one who is worthy of authority" and the term "hakim-e-waqth" means "someone who is in authority".

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Then again imam has several different meanings

Opinons differ through different marja's anyway.

May Allah hasten the reappearance of imam zamana and relieve us followers of ahlulbayt and have all our controversies answered with the truth.

Bro just thank your lord that we're born followers of ahlulbayt and part of this school of thought... Man... Phewww الحمدالله

صلوا على محمد وآل محمد

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Brother Aliyul Akbar, you're right but this is where you have to look at the verse and find out which meaning fits. This is all down to sense and logic, based on reality and facts. One can't deny what comes natural. Now you said "the word Imaam has several different meanings". Now if you chose a verse, which has the word Imaam in it then, it is obvious that all the meanings will not fit in there. Only one meaning will naturaly fit in and would be suited for that particular verse.

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