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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Continued! So i gave you the example of "la tufsedu fil arz", where "fee" has been used before the end and means "within". You've completely ran away from responding to anything else and just you're just circling around this.

I've asked you time and time over that, if you are allowed to disagree and differ, with the Ulul Amre, when ever and what ever you feel like then, what is the point of the Ulul Amre??? If you can disagree and differ with the Ulul Amre, "fee shay inn" basically over anything and everything then, in such a case you have to refer the matter, back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, what is the point of the Ulul Amre??? What is the point of this third authority??? This third authority is just baseless and useless. You might as well just stick to Allah (Quran) and the Messenger (pbuh, the Sunnah) to begin with.

How and in what way would you obey the Ulul Amre??? You said " one must obey the Ulul Amre in all matters and only challenge him, when he goes against Quran and Sunnah". Now tell me which Ulul Amre, be it Hakim-e-Waqth, parents or any other source in authority, being Muslims, would go against Quran and Sunnah????

you said "one must obey the Ulul Amre apart from him going against Quran and Sunnah". Now according to your statement, you yourself have categorised all matters, some are related to Quran and Sunnah but the others aren't. So you must obey the Ulul Amre in all matters but there is an exception that, if the Ulul Amre goes against those matters, which are connected to the Quran and Sunnah then, the command of obedience is suspended and one must not obey.

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Now i further asked you to give me examples of, which matters are religious (come under or are connected to Quran and Sunnah) and which are not and you said "all matters come under the umbrella of Islam and therefore are connected to Quran and Sunnah. So this would mean all disagreements and differences with the Ulul Amre, would be religious and that means the Ulul Amre is going against Quran and Sunnah, so must be challenged???

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(bismillah)

Statement:

1. That article is saying that in the absence of an infallible imam the jurists are in authority to look after the affairs of Muslims!! So if they're in charge of the affairs then what's the big hoo haa about?? They have authority over you because they are your jurists. So stop being plain ignorant and just admit it!!

Brother? When you come with Evidence from our scholars for example I would be more than happy to take it, but this was a mere Article, and it was not claiming that it is, it was simply putting forward and option. Second of All I am not ignoring you. You are the one who has Skipped half of my Questions from previous post Genius. Third of All The jurist cannot be Uli al amr of this "Islamic Ummah", When I mean The Islamic Ummah I mean the Whole Of Muslims in this World. When we talk about verse 4:59, Allah we have to obey (Every Human being worldwide) And the prophet peace be upon him we have to obey (Every Human being World Wide ) and Uli al amr Which we have to obey (Every Human Being world Wide Must obey them). The Holy verse is not talking about a certain place or time, but it is talking about the Whole of time. So to have a Jurist as our Uli al lamr would be Invalid. Because did we need jurist at the time of the prophet?

Statement:

So in this case it's all good for a Muslim to deny any other usul or furu but just as long as we believe in shahadah!!

No, but one who says the two shahadas And Works on the Furu & Arkan al deen he is a Muslim. The Usul of course he must believe in. Our Concept of Imamah is that there must be a Successor after the prophet. And of course all literate Muslims believe there should be a Successor after the prophet peace be upon him. But we Depart at the identity and that is up to you to choose. So please stop Making up non sense and claiming that I claim that your not a Muslim. Its very Silly.

Statement:

Also just because you found some website which says one who rejects abu bakr is kafir.. THIS MEANS NOTHING..

Genius, I was not referring to the site, Did you read the sources of each narration/Statement by the scholar? It was with book reference. According to your scholars and some of your Tafsirs, that one who denies abu bakr as caliph is a Kafir.

Statement :

Believing in caliphate of abu bakr is NOT an usul but believing in your 12 imams is.

To the Sunnah you have to believe in Abu bakr as the Caliph. And what your problem? your trying so hard to claim that I claim that your not a Muslim.? When are you going to use your logic?

Statement:

IF ANY MUSLIMS REJECTS ANY USUL HE IS OUTSIDE THE FOLD OF ISLAM. (Obviously you have to prove that usul) from quran using 3:7.

Who said that Usul al deen is only based on 3:7? And Who said if you reject any of them your not a Muslim? Where is your evidence of this statement?

Statement:

THIS IS WHY VERSE 3:7 SAYS THAT THE USULS ARE IN PRECISE VERSES. SO NOBODY WILL HAVE AN EXCUSE WHEN THEY WILL BE DOOMED FOREVER FOR REJECTING AN USUL. Verse 4:59 and 5:55 are not precise enough to prove imamat.. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SKULL.

Sunshine, You haven't given me any proof that verse 5:55 and verse 4:59 is Unspecific yet. Not even from our own Tafsir. And in our Tafsir it says they are precise on Wilyat. So whats your Hujja?

Statement:

1. I can interpretate the word wali to friend ally protector etc etc.

So does that mean any word in the Quran you have interpret it to your own meaning? your not a Scholar. And second of all you can contradict your self by bringing specific verses from the Quran and Claim that each word haas 3 to 10 meanings. I can do the same, since in the Arabic language each word has two, to 10 meanings. So your still not making any sense.

Statement:

2. We are not told who the ulil amre are all it says is those in authority. Also we are not told to refer to the ulil amr if we differ, so what authority dies he have?? This only means that the differing is with the ulil amr.

Brother, The differing is not in Uli am amr. Stop making up false assumption and at least support it with some proof. if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" precisely? and who said we have to refer to them? But We have to refer to the prophet and and the book of Allah, and to refer to the prophet then we must refer to him through Ahulbayt peace be upon them. Unless your going to Ignorantly exclude Ahlulbayt and say only the Quran which then would make you the person who goes astray, since the prophet peace be upon him said, only on to my Ahlulbayt and the book of Allah.

Statement:

To further prove my claim there are no verses in quran condemning us if we disobey ulil amr and it's only fair that there should have been if the ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet ( pbuh) ( according to shia).

So if I disobey Imam Ali (a.s) don't I disobey the prophet? And does that not mean Disobeying Allah? So tell me its okay to Disobey Ahlulabyt? yes or no?

Statement:

Tell me was talut r.a infallible

R.a? Which Talut are you talking about? The prophet? or some sahabah I don't know? since your saying R.a?

Statement:

4. So what if I believe that there must be a successor?? You believe he is appointed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì whereas I don't so I've according to you rejected a direct order from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

So you don't believe that Imam Ali is one of the Khalfias?

Statement:

Also what is your problem I've shown you a book where an ayatollah says he's the wali alamr ul muslimeen so what's your problem. You said your ayatollahs dont claim this position !! So what's your problem?? Can't you handle it

I don't know why you ignore my Answers. Brother Uli al amr is for the people who take him as a Marja'a, so he is Wali al amr in there Jurisprudence but not in their Religion. Please give me a statement of his where he says I am wali al amr of All Muslims. I did not ignore it genius, but your ignoring my Statements Constantly.

(wasalam)

You need to start Respecting others. have some manners Brother. Thank you.

The ISLAMIC history I'm sorry but you're totally lost. You're comparing apples to oranges and monkeys to giraffes.

Tell me how on earth is sunni caliphate and shia imamat the same??

You're deliberately running away from the fact that shia Imamate and sunni caliphate are not the same. Deep down you know you're stuck in a corner so you're coming out with the most lame excuse ever.

1. The only reason I "skipped half of your questions" are because they are not helping the situation we're in but actually making it a lot worse.

Also I don't know what on earth you're talking about when you say your jurist cannot be the ulil amr of the Muslim ummah, because on that book cover he seems to think the opposite of what you're saying so how about you stop contradicting yourself and face reality.

YOU SAID YOUR AYATOLLAH'S DO NOT CLAIM TO BE WALI AL AMR AL MUSLIMEEN and it is only "extremist" sunni websites who spread this propaganda.

Obviously "genius" it says on that book cover wali al amr ul MUSLIMEEN. Do you understand what that means or do I have to spoon feed you everything??

If I want to I can finish this right now BUT I'm going to deliberately prolong it so I can make you dig the hole you're digging for yourself deeper and deeper. It would be better for you to admit that your "concept" of Imamate does not exist in quran but if you don't then no problem CARRY ON.

.... And what is this??

YOU SAID

Because did we need jurist at the time of the prophet

MY ANSWER

I'm sorry but you call me sarcastically a "genius" well listen up EINSTEIN why would we need jurist in the time of the prophet (pbuh)?? but we need to rely on jurist now because they can guide us.

YOU SAID

No, but one who says the two shahadas And Works on the Furu & Arkan al deen he is a Muslim. The Usul of course he must believe in. Our Concept of Imamah is that there must be a Successor after the prophet. And of course all literate Muslims believe there should be a Successor after the prophet peace be upon him. But we Depart at the identity and that is up to you to choose. So please stop Making up non sense and claiming that I claim that your not a Muslim. Its very Silly.

MY ANSWER

You actually crack me up, no seriously you do. Your thinking is totally twisted or is it the fact that you can't face reality??

Ok let me use your theory. YOU tell me if what I'm about to write below would be acceptable.

... Believing in Muhammad (pbuh) as a prophet is usul. Just like believing ali is divinely appointed!! (According to shia) is an usul.

If all I have to believe is that the prophet (pbuh) had to have a successor and it did not have to be ali a.s then isn't this the same as saying I believe in a prophet but not Muhammad (pbuh)?? (Astagfirullah)

Tell me if believing in the prophet (pbuh) is an usul and so is believing in Imamate why are you degrading imamah??

YOU SAID

Genius, I was not referring to the site, Did you read the sources of each narration/Statement by the scholar? It was with book reference. According to your scholars and some of your Tafsirs, that one who denies abu bakr as caliph is a Kafir.

MY ANSWER

You actually think you've got something with this site don't you??

This site us totally and utterly wrong because they lie when they claim that there is "consensus" between SUNNIS that shia are KAAFIR. If such a consensus existed we would not marry your women nor would we give our sisters to you, we would also ban you from going to hajj as the qadianis are banned.

So there's his first flaw.. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS regarding shia being KAAFIR. Some "scholars" say yes and some say no.

If the references on that site actually meant something then we would not have sunni scholars speaking with different opinions regarding shia. SO THAT WEBSITE HAS LIED. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS.

YOU SAID

To the Sunnah you have to believe in Abu bakr as the Caliph. And what your problem? your trying so hard to claim that I claim that your not a Muslim.? When are you going to use your logic?

MY ANSWER

The only thing I'm trying to skis open up your mind for Christ sake.

YOU SAID

Who said that Usul al deen is only based on 3:7? And Who said if you reject any of them your not a Muslim? Where is your evidence of this statement?

MY ANSWER

Now you're just being silly. So what are you saying?? That we're not KAAFIR for rejecting an usul.

YOU SAID

Sunshine, You haven't given me any proof that verse 5:55 and verse 4:59 is Unspecific yet. Not even from our own Tafsir. And in our Tafsir it says they are precise on Wilyat. So whats your Hujja?

MY ANSWER

Lol.... Like I said IM NOT GOING ANYWHERE so you can make me repeat what I've said in the past a million times NO PROBLEM.

surah 3:18

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Gods name is Allah and he is one!!

Al-Fatah 48: 29 – MUHAMMAD IS GODS APOSTLE. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelieves but merciful to one another. You see them worshipping on their knees, seeking grace of God and His good will. Their makes are on their faces, the traces of their prostrations Thus are they described in the Torah and in the Gospel: they are like the seed which puts forth its shoot and strengthens it, so that it rises stout and firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers. Through them He seeks to enrage the unbelievers. Yet to those of them who will embrace the Faith and do good works God has promised forgiveness and a rich recomense.

Muhammad (pbuh) is apostle of Allah

VERSE 4:59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

We know the first and second authority from quran from the above verses.

.....But....

Who is the ulil amr??

You see how because we are not told exactly who the ulil amr are in the quran everybody pulls out their hadith saying it is their people who are the ulil amre.

Verse 5:55

How is this precise?? When the word used is wali??

YOU SAID

So does that mean any word in the Quran you have interpret it to your own meaning? your not a Scholar. And second of all you can contradict your self by bringing specific verses from the Quran and Claim that each word haas 3 to 10 meanings. I can do the same, since in the Arabic language each word has two, to 10 meanings. So your still not making any sense.

MY ANSWER

Firstly I've never claimed to be a scholar and secondly in our translation we have used the words ally/friend to interpretate the word wali so firstly how is it a precise verse and secondly is there anyone who can say we are doing tehreef for using different words to describe the word wali.

YOU SAID

Brother, The differing is not in Uli am amr. Stop making up false assumption and at least support it with some proof. if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" precisely? and who said we have to refer to them? But We have to refer to the prophet and and the book of Allah, and to refer to the prophet then we must refer to him through Ahulbayt peace be upon them. Unless your going to Ignorantly exclude Ahlulbayt and say only the Quran which then would make you the person who goes astray, since the prophet peace be upon him said, only on to my Ahlulbayt and the book of Allah.

MY ANSWER

"False assumptions" hahaha.. Good joke. NOT.

How am I making false assumptions?? Ive given you evidence from quran I've told you if the the ulil amr is on the same level of prophet ( pbuh ) when it comes to obedience then isn't it fair that there should be a verse condemning us if we disobey ulil amr.

.... And what have you got from quran regarding ulil amr?? Other than all it means is "those in authority".

You have also said the below:

But We have to refer to the prophet and and the book of Allah, and to refer to the prophet then we must refer to him through Ahulbayt peace be upon them.

MY ANSWER

Stop adding your own bits in and stop being ignorant I've told you how we should refer to the prophet ie; hadith.

By the way I like your double standards regarding this verse. First you say "if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" PRECISELY??

......and then you magically seem to fit in referring to AHLE BAYT in verse 4:59 when the verse is NOT PRECISELY saying any such thing.

How about you stop the double standards and let reality hit home.

You don't even know the meaning of AHLE BAYT. Go and do some homework.

YOU SAID

So if I disobey Imam Ali (a.s) don't I disobey the prophet? And does that not mean Disobeying Allah? So tell me its okay to Disobey Ahlulabyt? yes or no?

MY ANSWER

Before you play this tactic you have to prove that this verse was sent only for your imams. So calm down with your propoganda.

YOU SAID

R.a? Which Talut are you talking about? The prophet? or some sahabah I don't know? since your saying R.a?

MY ANSWER

Quran 2:247

YOU SAID

So you don't believe that Imam Ali is one of the Khalfias?

MY ANSWER

....and what's this got to do with anything.

YOU SAID

I don't know why you ignore my Answers. Brother Uli al amr is for the people who take him as a Marja'a, so he is Wali al amr in there Jurisprudence but not in their Religion. Please give me a statement of his where he says I am wali al amr of All Muslims. I did not ignore it genius, but your ignoring my Statements Constantly.

MY ANSWER

Listen Einstein. Read the cover it says wali al amr ul MUSLIMEEN

YOU SAID

You need to start Respecting others. have some manners Brother. Thank you.

MY ANSWER

That's between me n AMEEN

Also you say to refer to prophet (pbuh) you have to refer to AHLE BAYT so how do you refer to AHLE BAYT??

Also you totally ignore letter 6 in nahj ul balagah deliberatel.

Why don't you cut out the sarcasm, insults, accuse and abuse plus all the rest of your nonsense and start discussing in a civilised and decent manner.

When you bring me a translation of verse 4:59 from a reliable link Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

The ISLAMIC history I'm sorry but you're totally lost. You're comparing apples to oranges and monkeys to giraffes.

 

(1) When are you going to stop making assumptions?
(2) Your really bad at metaphors you know? 

 

 

Statement:
Tell me how on earth is sunni caliphate and shia imamat the same??

 

Believing that there is an Imam after the prophet peace be upon him. 

 

Statement:
You're deliberately running away from the fact that shia Imamate and sunni caliphate are not the same. Deep down you know you're stuck in a corner so you're coming out with the most lame excuse ever.

 

And here you are making a weak judgement, I think the Audience will be the judge of that. I like how this debate has turned into a baseless argument, I wonder why? Let the viewers judge. 

 

 

Statement:
1. The only reason I "skipped half of your questions" are because they are not helping the situation we're in but actually making it a lot worse
.

 

Making it worse because you refuse you accept? and can't answer them?

 

 

Statement:
Also I don't know what on earth you're talking about when you say your jurist cannot be the ulil amr of the Muslim ummah, because on that book cover he seems to think the opposite of what you're saying so how about you stop contradicting yourself and face reality.

 

​You are Sarcastic, when are you going to quite the Sarcasm? I Quote my self again: 

 

According to this statement ('bayan') by Sayyid Haeri, Sayyid Khamenei is not the Wali of the people of Iraq:


السؤال الثالث : هل من الصحيح ما قد يقال من أنّ قائد الثورة الإسلاميّة في إيران سماحة آية الله العظمى السيّد عليّ الخامنئي"حفظه الله" قد تصدّى لممارسة الولاية بالفعل لشؤون الاُمة العراقيّة عن طريق نصب وليّ للعراق؟ 

الجواب : قد راجعناه ـ دام ظلّه ـ وسألناه عن ذلك فقال: "لم ولن اُعيّن وليّاً للعراق".


[source: http://www.alhaeri.o...at/bayan23.html]


This roughly translates to:

Question 3: Is it correct to say that the Leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran Ayatullah Al-Udhma Sayyid Ali Khamenei has established his Guardianship in the affairs of the Iraqi nation through his designation as Guardian of Iraq?

Answer: We consulted him and asked him about this and he said: 'I have not and will not be designated as Guardian to Iraq'.

 

 

I don't know why you ignore my Answers. Brother Uli al amr is for the people who take him as a Marja'a, so he is Wali al amr in there Jurisprudence but not in their Religion. Please give me a statement of his where he says I am wali al amr of All Muslims. I did not ignore it genius, but your ignoring my Statements Constantly.

 

 

So my dear friend don't use book covers as your proof. Here you see he is not claiming to be Wali al amr for All Muslims. As you can see not even for Iraq. but in the Democratic Nation of Iran. 

 

 
Statement:
 right now BUT I'm going to deliberately prolong it so I can make you dig the hole you're digging for yourself deeper and deeper. It would be better for you to admit that your "concept" of Imamate does not exist in quran but if you don't then no problem CARRY ON.

 

How the does it not exist? do Prophet Moses, Jesus, Solomon did not appoint a successor? Then how can the Concept no Exist in the Quran and the previous Scriptures Genius. Stop making Assumptions. 

 

.

Statement:
I'm sorry but you call me sarcastically a "genius" well listen up EINSTEIN why would we need jurist in the time of the prophet (s)?? but we need to rely on jurist now because they can guide us.

 

So which Jurist should I follow Genius, the Shia Jurist? or the Sunni jurist? What do you recommend? 



Statement:
You actually crack me up, no seriously you do. Your thinking is totally twisted or is it the fact that you can't face reality??

 

Your View of Reality depends on your beliefs which you did not and cannot prove to us for the past month. 


Statement:
... Believing in Muhammad (s) as a prophet is usul. Just like believing ali is divinely appointed!! (According to shia) is an usul.

not My dear friend you Must believe he is the Khalifa. So you don't Believe he is a Khalfia?

 

 

Statement:
If all I have to believe is that the prophet (s) had to have a successor and it did not have to be ali a.s then isn't this the same as saying I believe in a prophet but not Muhammad (s)?? (Astagfirullah) 

 

For the Successor we know Imam Ali is a part of the four Khalifas. For the prophet we know he is a Part of the other thousands of prophets. Your using an example by name and not be Position. Do you basically believe that Imam Ali (a.s) is the Khalifa from the the four correct? and you believe that the prophet is a part of the other thousands of prophets. 

 

Statement:
Tell me if believing in the prophet (s) is an usul and so is believing in Imamate why are you degrading imamah??

 

How are we Degrading Imamah? when are you going to write proper sentences?





StatementL
This site us totally and utterly wrong because they lie when they claim that there is "consensus" between SUNNIS that shia are KAAFIR. If such a consensus existed we would not marry your women nor would we give our sisters to you, we would also ban you from going to hajj as the qadianis are banned.

 

They cannot banned us from Hajj, because that would cause a Calamity upon them. But in their beliefs we are Kaffar. Ibn Hijjer and other Scholars Confirmed this. According to them. And concerning the marriage. That is because they Ignore this Ideology, which of course is the right thing to do. But sadly Most of the Scholars of your believe this. I gave you a full list which you refuse to read.  

 

 

Statement:
So there's his first flaw.. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS regarding shia being KAAFIR. Some "scholars" say yes and some say no.

 

Would you like to mentioned to us some of the Scholars of your Who say no?

 

 

Statement:
If the references on that site actually meant something then we would not have sunni scholars speaking with different opinions regarding shia. SO THAT WEBSITE HAS LIED. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS.

 

(1) You never bother Checking the Reference. 
(2) list me some of the Accepted Scholars that Said No.
(3) Any proof of your statement?




Statement:
The only thing I'm trying to skis open up your mind for Christ sake.

 

And Have no idea whats your tying to say here. Open My mind? First of all you never proved to me one single thing about the Sunni belief. And Second of all, a very bad expression of your there friend.




Statement:
Now you're just being silly. So what are you saying?? That we're not KAAFIR for rejecting an usul.

 

I am talking about precisely Imamah. So can you give evidence of this? that if you reject Imamah your a Kafir? 

 

Statement:
surah 3:18

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Gods name is Allah and he is one!!

 

In verse 4:59 God is also one. Now can you please tell me who are those of Knowledge? how is this a Precise verse? 

 

 

 

Statement:
Al-Fatah 48: 29 – MUHAMMAD IS GODS APOSTLE. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelieves but merciful to one another. You see them worshipping on their knees, seeking grace of God and His good will. Their makes are on their faces, the traces of their prostrations Thus are they described in the Torah and in the Gospel: they are like the seed which puts forth its shoot and strengthens it, so that it rises stout and firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers. Through them He seeks to enrage the unbelievers. Yet to those of them who will embrace the Faith and do good works God has promised forgiveness and a rich recomense.


Muhammad (s) is apostle of Allah

 

In verse 4:59 It also shows that prophet Muhammad is the Prophet, So what your point?



Statement:
Who is the ulil amr??

 

​The Twelve Caliphs. 

 

Statement:
You see how because we are not told exactly who the ulil amr are in the quran everybody pulls out their hadith saying it is their people who are the ulil amre.

 

And Mine was Authentic and yet No Rejection or Proper Refutation from you whatsoever?

Statement:
Firstly I've never claimed to be a scholar and secondly in our translation we have used the words ally/friend to interpretate the word wali so firstly how is it a precise verse and secondly is there anyone who can say we are doing tehreef for using different words to describe the word wali.

 

The Difference between Arabic and English, is that English has Words that are of one meaning and sometimes two meanings Depending on where about you put it in the sentence. While Arabic Despite any Sentence you put it in, the Word yes has two, to ten meanings, and yet We have many verses like this, but you cannot Claim it to be Unspecific, when the sentence Clearly tells you what is meant by it. And till today you have never given me proof that it is Unspecific friend.  



Statement:
"False assumptions" hahaha.. Good joke. NOT.

 

You cant have a Positive Assumption, which maybe correct, but not Confirmed until factually it is Proven and you can have a false assumption, when one fails to bring factual evident proof of it. And Not its not a Joke.

 

Statement:
How am I making false assumptions?? Ive given you evidence from quran I've told you if the the ulil amr is on the same level of prophet ( pbuh ) when it comes to obedience then isn't it fair that there should be a verse condemning us if we disobey ulil amr.

 

(1) You did not answer my Question so I will Quote:

 

(2) If Ahlulbayt are the third line of Authority and we disobey them, does that not mean we Disobey Allah and the prophet? So tell me is it okay to Disobey Imam Ali (a.s) at the time> yes or no? Simple Question.
 

 

Brother, The differing is not in Uli am amr. Stop making up false assumption and at least support it with some proof. if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" precisely? and who said we have to refer to them? But We have to refer to the prophet and and the book of Allah, and to refer to the prophet then we must refer to him through Ahulbayt peace be upon them. Unless your going to Ignorantly exclude Ahlulbayt and say only the Quran which then would make you the person who goes astray, since the prophet peace be upon him said, only on to my Ahlulbayt and the book of Allah. 

 

 

 

 

Statement:
By the way I like your double standards regarding this verse. First you say "if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" PRECISELY??  and then you magically seem to fit in referring to AHLE BAYT in verse 4:59 when the verse is NOT PRECISELY saying any such thing. How about you stop the double standards and let reality hit home.

 

(1) You Fail to Answer/Refute My statement. Do you take the saying of the prophet as nothing? Very sad.
(2) If the people Differ in the Whether the prophet is a Prophet, Does that make him a False Prophet?
(3) So are you saying we can Disobey the orders of Ahlulbayt? yes or no?


 

 

Statement:
You don't even know the meaning of AHLE BAYT. Go and do some homework.

 

When are you going to actually bring some Proof? From day one till today you have not proven to me your meaning of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. In fact you skipped every Evidence there is even from the Six Sahihs. So please brother no need for baseless Complaints.


statement:
Before you play this tactic you have to prove that this verse was sent only for your imams. So calm down with your propoganda.

 

(1) I proved it to you though many narrations.
(2) Rejected your Bukhari narration, Which Ironically Contradicted it self.
(3) You have not made a Refutation to the Chain narration of the Hadiths I gave.
(4) You did not answer the Question so I Quote once more:


 

 

 


So if I disobey Imam Ali (a.s) don't I disobey the prophet? And does that not mean Disobeying Allah? So tell me its okay to Disobey Ahlulabyt? yes or no?

   





Statement:
Quran 2:247

 

yes talut is Infallible. 


Statement:
and what's this got to do with anything
.

 

This has everything to do with the topic, please answer, I quote again:

 

 

 

So you don't believe that Imam Ali is one of the Khalfias?

 

Statement:
That's between me n AMEEN

 

Again, You need to start Respecting others. have some manners Brother. Thank you.

 

Also you say to refer to prophet  (s) you have to refer to AHLE BAYT so how do you refer to AHLE BAYT?? 

 

The Sayings Of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them.

 

Statement:
Also you totally ignore letter 6 in nahj ul balagah deliberatel.

 

 

[ The following is a letter to Mu'awiya and in it Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã has used the same principle that he applied on Talha and Zubayr. Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in this letter has raised all the points which were once quoted against him. He says if an election on the basis of general franchise is the criterion to decide such a caliphate, then general election took place to elect him the Caliph and nobody can deny this fact, and if limited franchise (Shura) was the criterion then those who represented this group (Muhajirs and Ansars) were amongst those who elected him and therefore even according to the rules formulated by opponents of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã his election was lawful, regular and bonafide. Thus no Muslim has a right to speak or act against him. ]
 

 

 

 

So Muwiahya had no Hujja on Imam Ali (a.s) Since even some of the Ansar the Muhajreen gave Alliance to him, and even with the method of Shura, they did this is a manner which they thought was correct, and yt Muwiaiyah had not stance against this since his appointment is Invalid, since the Muhajareen and the Asnar (some of them) gave Alliance to Imam Ali (a.s). Yet no where in the letter did Imam Ali (a.s) say I approve of the Previous Khailafa of the three, not does he sau that he claims that Allah has approved of it. His Explaining to Muwiayah how to Muhajreen and the Asnar his appointment would be invalid compare to Imam Ali (a.s) where he is Righteous.

And I never Skipped The letter, I explained it to you previously and you did not reply. and Just now your bringing it up again.

(wasalam)  


Statement:

Ameen before you start acting all " scholarly" bring a translation of the quran to prove fee shayin means IN ANYTHING IN THIS. 

 

The Word: "في" In Arabic means In. According to the Arabic language "شيئ" means something. You can even Translate it if you want.

(wasalam)

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Statement:

The ISLAMIC history I'm sorry but you're totally lost. You're comparing apples to oranges and monkeys to giraffes.

(1) When are you going to stop making assumptions?

(2) Your really bad at metaphors you know?

Statement:

Tell me how on earth is sunni caliphate and shia imamat the same??

Believing that there is an Imam after the prophet peace be upon him.

Statement:

You're deliberately running away from the fact that shia Imamate and sunni caliphate are not the same. Deep down you know you're stuck in a corner so you're coming out with the most lame excuse ever.

And here you are making a weak judgement, I think the Audience will be the judge of that. I like how this debate has turned into a baseless argument, I wonder why? Let the viewers judge.

Statement:

1. The only reason I "skipped half of your questions" are because they are not helping the situation we're in but actually making it a lot worse.

Making it worse because you refuse you accept? and can't answer them?

Statement:

Also I don't know what on earth you're talking about when you say your jurist cannot be the ulil amr of the Muslim ummah, because on that book cover he seems to think the opposite of what you're saying so how about you stop contradicting yourself and face reality.

​You are Sarcastic, when are you going to quite the Sarcasm? I Quote my self again:

According to this statement ('bayan') by Sayyid Haeri, Sayyid Khamenei is not the Wali of the people of Iraq:

السؤال الثالث : هل من الصحيح ما قد يقال من أنّ قائد الثورة الإسلاميّة في إيران سماحة آية الله العظمى السيّد عليّ الخامنئي"حفظه الله" قد تصدّى لممارسة الولاية بالفعل لشؤون الاُمة العراقيّة عن طريق نصب وليّ للعراق؟

الجواب : قد راجعناه ـ دام ظلّه ـ وسألناه عن ذلك فقال: "لم ولن اُعيّن وليّاً للعراق".

[source: http://www.alhaeri.o...at/bayan23.html]

This roughly translates to:

Question 3: Is it correct to say that the Leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran Ayatullah Al-Udhma Sayyid Ali Khamenei has established his Guardianship in the affairs of the Iraqi nation through his designation as Guardian of Iraq?

Answer: We consulted him and asked him about this and he said: 'I have not and will not be designated as Guardian to Iraq'.

I don't know why you ignore my Answers. Brother Uli al amr is for the people who take him as a Marja'a, so he is Wali al amr in there Jurisprudence but not in their Religion. Please give me a statement of his where he says I am wali al amr of All Muslims. I did not ignore it genius, but your ignoring my Statements Constantly.

So my dear friend don't use book covers as your proof. Here you see he is not claiming to be Wali al amr for All Muslims. As you can see not even for Iraq. but in the Democratic Nation of Iran.

Statement:

right now BUT I'm going to deliberately prolong it so I can make you dig the hole you're digging for yourself deeper and deeper. It would be better for you to admit that your "concept" of Imamate does not exist in quran but if you don't then no problem CARRY ON.

How the does it not exist? do Prophet Moses, Jesus, Solomon did not appoint a successor? Then how can the Concept no Exist in the Quran and the previous Scriptures Genius. Stop making Assumptions.

.

Statement:

I'm sorry but you call me sarcastically a "genius" well listen up EINSTEIN why would we need jurist in the time of the prophet (s)?? but we need to rely on jurist now because they can guide us.

So which Jurist should I follow Genius, the Shia Jurist? or the Sunni jurist? What do you recommend?

Statement:

You actually crack me up, no seriously you do. Your thinking is totally twisted or is it the fact that you can't face reality??

Your View of Reality depends on your beliefs which you did not and cannot prove to us for the past month.

Statement:

... Believing in Muhammad (s) as a prophet is usul. Just like believing ali is divinely appointed!! (According to shia) is an usul.

not My dear friend you Must believe he is the Khalifa. So you don't Believe he is a Khalfia?

Statement:

If all I have to believe is that the prophet (s) had to have a successor and it did not have to be ali a.s then isn't this the same as saying I believe in a prophet but not Muhammad (s)?? (Astagfirullah)

For the Successor we know Imam Ali is a part of the four Khalifas. For the prophet we know he is a Part of the other thousands of prophets. Your using an example by name and not be Position. Do you basically believe that Imam Ali (a.s) is the Khalifa from the the four correct? and you believe that the prophet is a part of the other thousands of prophets.

Statement:

Tell me if believing in the prophet (s) is an usul and so is believing in Imamate why are you degrading imamah??

How are we Degrading Imamah? when are you going to write proper sentences?

StatementL

This site us totally and utterly wrong because they lie when they claim that there is "consensus" between SUNNIS that shia are KAAFIR. If such a consensus existed we would not marry your women nor would we give our sisters to you, we would also ban you from going to hajj as the qadianis are banned.

They cannot banned us from Hajj, because that would cause a Calamity upon them. But in their beliefs we are Kaffar. Ibn Hijjer and other Scholars Confirmed this. According to them. And concerning the marriage. That is because they Ignore this Ideology, which of course is the right thing to do. But sadly Most of the Scholars of your believe this. I gave you a full list which you refuse to read.

Statement:

So there's his first flaw.. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS regarding shia being KAAFIR. Some "scholars" say yes and some say no.

Would you like to mentioned to us some of the Scholars of your Who say no?

Statement:

If the references on that site actually meant something then we would not have sunni scholars speaking with different opinions regarding shia. SO THAT WEBSITE HAS LIED. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS.

(1) You never bother Checking the Reference.

(2) list me some of the Accepted Scholars that Said No.

(3) Any proof of your statement?

Statement:

The only thing I'm trying to skis open up your mind for Christ sake.

And Have no idea whats your tying to say here. Open My mind? First of all you never proved to me one single thing about the Sunni belief. And Second of all, a very bad expression of your there friend.

Statement:

Now you're just being silly. So what are you saying?? That we're not KAAFIR for rejecting an usul.

I am talking about precisely Imamah. So can you give evidence of this? that if you reject Imamah your a Kafir?

Statement:

surah 3:18

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Gods name is Allah and he is one!!

In verse 4:59 God is also one. Now can you please tell me who are those of Knowledge? how is this a Precise verse?

Statement:

Al-Fatah 48: 29 – MUHAMMAD IS GODS APOSTLE. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelieves but merciful to one another. You see them worshipping on their knees, seeking grace of God and His good will. Their makes are on their faces, the traces of their prostrations Thus are they described in the Torah and in the Gospel: they are like the seed which puts forth its shoot and strengthens it, so that it rises stout and firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers. Through them He seeks to enrage the unbelievers. Yet to those of them who will embrace the Faith and do good works God has promised forgiveness and a rich recomense.

Muhammad (s) is apostle of Allah

In verse 4:59 It also shows that prophet Muhammad is the Prophet, So what your point?

Statement:

Who is the ulil amr??

​The Twelve Caliphs.

Statement:

You see how because we are not told exactly who the ulil amr are in the quran everybody pulls out their hadith saying it is their people who are the ulil amre.

And Mine was Authentic and yet No Rejection or Proper Refutation from you whatsoever?

Statement:

Firstly I've never claimed to be a scholar and secondly in our translation we have used the words ally/friend to interpretate the word wali so firstly how is it a precise verse and secondly is there anyone who can say we are doing tehreef for using different words to describe the word wali.

The Difference between Arabic and English, is that English has Words that are of one meaning and sometimes two meanings Depending on where about you put it in the sentence. While Arabic Despite any Sentence you put it in, the Word yes has two, to ten meanings, and yet We have many verses like this, but you cannot Claim it to be Unspecific, when the sentence Clearly tells you what is meant by it. And till today you have never given me proof that it is Unspecific friend.

Statement:

"False assumptions" hahaha.. Good joke. NOT.

You cant have a Positive Assumption, which maybe correct, but not Confirmed until factually it is Proven and you can have a false assumption, when one fails to bring factual evident proof of it. And Not its not a Joke.

Statement:

How am I making false assumptions?? Ive given you evidence from quran I've told you if the the ulil amr is on the same level of prophet ( pbuh ) when it comes to obedience then isn't it fair that there should be a verse condemning us if we disobey ulil amr.

(1) You did not answer my Question so I will Quote:

(2) If Ahlulbayt are the third line of Authority and we disobey them, does that not mean we Disobey Allah and the prophet? So tell me is it okay to Disobey Imam Ali (a.s) at the time> yes or no? Simple Question.

Brother, The differing is not in Uli am amr. Stop making up false assumption and at least support it with some proof. if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" precisely? and who said we have to refer to them? But We have to refer to the prophet and and the book of Allah, and to refer to the prophet then we must refer to him through Ahulbayt peace be upon them. Unless your going to Ignorantly exclude Ahlulbayt and say only the Quran which then would make you the person who goes astray, since the prophet peace be upon him said, only on to my Ahlulbayt and the book of Allah.

Statement:

By the way I like your double standards regarding this verse. First you say "if the differing of the "people" was in uli al amr then why would it say "In everything" and why not "in Uli al amr" PRECISELY?? and then you magically seem to fit in referring to AHLE BAYT in verse 4:59 when the verse is NOT PRECISELY saying any such thing. How about you stop the double standards and let reality hit home.

(1) You Fail to Answer/Refute My statement. Do you take the saying of the prophet as nothing? Very sad.

(2) If the people Differ in the Whether the prophet is a Prophet, Does that make him a False Prophet?

(3) So are you saying we can Disobey the orders of Ahlulbayt? yes or no?

Statement:

You don't even know the meaning of AHLE BAYT. Go and do some homework.

When are you going to actually bring some Proof? From day one till today you have not proven to me your meaning of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them. In fact you skipped every Evidence there is even from the Six Sahihs. So please brother no need for baseless Complaints.

statement:

Before you play this tactic you have to prove that this verse was sent only for your imams. So calm down with your propoganda.

(1) I proved it to you though many narrations.

(2) Rejected your Bukhari narration, Which Ironically Contradicted it self.

(3) You have not made a Refutation to the Chain narration of the Hadiths I gave.

(4) You did not answer the Question so I Quote once more:

Statement:

Quran 2:247

yes talut is Infallible.

Statement:

and what's this got to do with anything.

This has everything to do with the topic, please answer, I quote again:

Statement:

That's between me n AMEEN

Again, You need to start Respecting others. have some manners Brother. Thank you.

Also you say to refer to prophet (s) you have to refer to AHLE BAYT so how do you refer to AHLE BAYT??

The Sayings Of Ahlulbayt peace be upon them.

Statement:

Also you totally ignore letter 6 in nahj ul balagah deliberatel.

So Muwiahya had no Hujja on Imam Ali (a.s) Since even some of the Ansar the Muhajreen gave Alliance to him, and even with the method of Shura, they did this is a manner which they thought was correct, and yt Muwiaiyah had not stance against this since his appointment is Invalid, since the Muhajareen and the Asnar (some of them) gave Alliance to Imam Ali (a.s). Yet no where in the letter did Imam Ali (a.s) say I approve of the Previous Khailafa of the three, not does he sau that he claims that Allah has approved of it. His Explaining to Muwiayah how to Muhajreen and the Asnar his appointment would be invalid compare to Imam Ali (a.s) where he is Righteous.

And I never Skipped The letter, I explained it to you previously and you did not reply. and Just now your bringing it up again.

(wasalam)

Statement:

Ameen before you start acting all " scholarly" bring a translation of the quran to prove fee shayin means IN ANYTHING IN THIS.

The Word: "في" In Arabic means In. According to the Arabic language "شيئ" means something. You can even Translate it if you want.

(wasalam)

Brother ISLAMIC history first lets get one thing straight before I answer your questions

You have said something in your answer which has made me question your knowledge regarding ISLAMIC beliefs

YOU SAID

I am talking about precisely Imamah. So can you give evidence of this? that if you reject Imamah your a Kafir?

MY ANSWER

In your aqidah you believe that believing in your 12 imams is USUL AD DEEN so how can you call somebody a Muslim if they reject an usul

Please explain because I'm confused

Also regarding fee shayin

I said it means IN ANYTHING

and AMEEN said it means in anything WITHIN THIS

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zs62ZK98XNE

Edited by Just the truth

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Brother ISLAMIC history first lets get one thing straight before I answer your questions

You have said something in your answer which has made me question your knowledge regarding ISLAMIC beliefs

YOU SAID

I am talking about precisely Imamah. So can you give evidence of this? that if you reject Imamah your a Kafir?

MY ANSWER

In your aqidah you believe that believing in your 12 imams is USUL AD DEEN so how can you call somebody a Muslim if they reject an usul

Please explain because I'm confused

Also regarding fee shayin

I said it means IN ANYTHING

and AMEEN said it means in anything WITHIN THIS

 

 

(1) In anything, Means Within something, but Anything basically.

(2) No don't Worry your not Kafir. But You cannot Reject Imam Ali (a.s) as a Khalifa. Well do you? 

 

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(1) In anything, Means Within something, but Anything basically.

(2) No don't Worry your not Kafir. But You cannot Reject Imam Ali (a.s) as a Khalifa. Well do you?

1. What does fee shayin mean

2. I reject him as an appointed infallible but accept him as a caliph

I reject that every single one of your imams is an appointed imam

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zs62ZK98XNE

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1. What does fee shayin mean

2. I reject him as an appointed infallible but accept him as a caliph

I reject that every single one of your imams is an appointed imam

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zs62ZK98XNE

 

(1) In Something to be Exact.

(2) If you accept him as Caliph then your not Kafir. Heavens no. But One Question why do you reject that he was appointed?

 

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Brother just the truth can't answer simple questions. "And if you disagree and differ", you claim here that Allah means, if the people disagree and differ with the Ulul Amre, right??? Can you justify this, if this is what you mean??? "fee shay inn", according to you means first "on anything" now "in anything". So if one has the right to disagree and differ with the Ulul Amre then, what is the point of the Ulul Amre??? In the phase of disagreement, one has to refer the matter, back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, again, what is the whole point of putting the Ulul Amre into authority, in the first place??? Just as you require me to explain, justify and answer, the same responsibility lies on you. At the moment you're just running and hiding behind excuses. A person with a bit of dignity, respect and shame, would have answered by now.


What does "fee shay inn" mean??? Just the two words on their own would mean " in anything". Separately the word "fee" on its own means "in" and the word "shay" on its own means "thing", But when these two words are used in a sentence or in a paragraph then "fee shay inn" would mean "in anything" about and regarding what has been said, discussed or mentioned, therefore "fee shay inn" would mean "in anything within this, about this, regarding this, concerning this" you name it. The meaning in general would shift to in particular. it would be connected to what is being said, discussed or mentioned. You just need to get out of that arrogant and ignorant mode.

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(1) In Something to be Exact.

(2) If you accept him as Caliph then your not Kafir. Heavens no. But One Question why do you reject that he was appointed?

1. Just answer the question. What does fee shayin exactly mean??

2. Stop asking a question with a question and answer the question. How is a person considered a Muslim if he rejects an usul?? Would you consider me Muslim if I rejected yawm al qiyamah?? Or angels?? Or Allah (swt) books??

Brother just the truth can't answer simple questions. "And if you disagree and differ", you claim here that Allah means, if the people disagree and differ with the Ulul Amre, right??? Can you justify this, if this is what you mean??? "fee shay inn", according to you means first "on anything" now "in anything". So if one has the right to disagree and differ with the Ulul Amre then, what is the point of the Ulul Amre??? In the phase of disagreement, one has to refer the matter, back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) then, again, what is the whole point of putting the Ulul Amre into authority, in the first place??? Just as you require me to explain, justify and answer, the same responsibility lies on you. At the moment you're just running and hiding behind excuses. A person with a bit of dignity, respect and shame, would have answered by now.

What does "fee shay inn" mean??? Just the two words on their own would mean " in anything". Separately the word "fee" on its own means "in" and the word "shay" on its own means "thing", But when these two words are used in a sentence or in a paragraph then "fee shay inn" would mean "in anything" about and regarding what has been said, discussed or mentioned, therefore "fee shay inn" would mean "in anything within this, about this, regarding this, concerning this" you name it. The meaning in general would shift to in particular. it would be connected to what is being said, discussed or mentioned. You just need to get out of that arrogant and ignorant mode.

So in simple English what you're saying is that shia and sunni scholars have got it wrong and the real meaning of fee shayin means IN ANYTHING WITHIN THIS.

Actually ISLAMIC history what does your hadith say?? Like when exactly was this verse revealed??

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Nope, in simple English what i'm saying is, there is alot of discussing and debating to do, which you are holding back on. There is plenty of explanation and justification that, needs to be done on your behalf and this is what me and brother Islam history is patiently waiting for. Brother, don't hide behind excuses.

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Nope, in simple English what i'm saying is, there is alot of discussing and debating to do, which you are holding back on. There is plenty of explanation and justification that, needs to be done on your behalf and this is what me and brother Islam history is patiently waiting for. Brother, don't hide behind excuses.

Excuse me!! But why arnt you bringing a translation of verse 4:59??

Edited by Just the truth

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Well excuse me, do you just depend on translation, when it comes to the Quran??? Doesn't meaning, tafseer, tauzeeh, hadees etc, have any place??? Once againg if you can't answer or respond, in a positive manner then, just say so, instead of beating around the bush. You said "And obey those in authority among you", now tell me which words in the Ayath mean obey, those and in??? Here you have the part of the verse again "wa ulul amre minkum", now which words from here mean obey, those and in???? You need to stop hiding behind excuses and step up to the mark. We're still waiting for a response from you, on many questions and points put forward to you.

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1. Just answer the question. What does fee shayin exactly mean??

2. Stop asking a question with a question and answer the question. How is a person considered a Muslim if he rejects an usul?? Would you consider me Muslim if I rejected yawm al qiyamah?? Or angels?? Or Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì books??

So in simple English what you're saying is that shia and sunni scholars have got it wrong and the real meaning of fee shayin means IN ANYTHING WITHIN THIS.

Actually ISLAMIC history what does your hadith say?? Like when exactly was this verse revealed??

 

(1) In something. I did answer your Question? And whats wrong with it? "FEE" which means IN and Shayain means something.

(2)  Brother I told you for the last time your a Muslim if your accept Imam Ali (a.s) as your Caliph. But Brother This Question Is Important, Why do you believe he is not appointed?

And Concerning the verse when it was Revealed, Jabir r.a asked the prophet peace be upon him and the prophet Informed him of the Twelve Caliphs.

Also brother If the prophet peace be upon him termed them as "12 Caliphs" in the Bukhari and Muslim, then they are caliphs. And we are the only sect in Islam who follows the Twelve Caliphs. Can you name any other Sect that Believes in the 12 Caliphs?

(wasalam)     

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Brother just the truth, it has been made clear to you that, rejecting any of the principals of religion (usool-e-deen), puts you out of the fold of Islam. Let me ask you this, lets say that there is nothing in the Quran what so ever but the Prophet (pbuh) said something, which was solely based on his will, wish and desire, would this not be part of Islam??? Would this not be part of Shariath???

The Prophet (pbuh) was severly ill and he spoke to the people around him, to get him a pen and a paper, so he could right down something for them, so they don't go astray, because of separation and division, due to disagreement and difference after his demise. Does this not tell you that what was going to be written, was definately and absolutely important and would have been straight from the Prophet (pbuh) alone????

What do you think the Prophet (pbuh) was going to write down???? After my demise i want my hat to go to so and so and my shirt to go to so and so and my walking stick to go to so and so and my trousers to go to so and so and my boots must go to so and so and there on??? Ofcourse not! What ever was going to be written was bloody damn important and any person, with a bit of common basic sense would realise that, it had to do with his successor. It had to do with who was going to succeed him. What was more bloody important than this???

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This fact is absolutely crystal clear that, what ever the Prophet (pbuh) was going to right down was important and beneficial for the people and without it the Ummah would separate, by falling into division and going astray, that is parting and going into different direction. All this fell into jeapordy by the disagreement and fuss made by certain individuals and the reason why this disagreement was brought about and why the fuss made is, because to be continued.

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Because those individuals realised and knew, just exactly as we do, what was important, what was left behind and what any individual in such a state, would have in mind to right down.

These people knew that if something was written down then, their plans, based on their hidden agenda, would be flushed down. As we all know that the Prophet (pbuh) asked for a pen and paper and also gave a clear reason for it.

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A question comes to mind that such an important person, as the Prophet (pbuh), asks for a pen and paper and gives a reason that, let me right down for you something that, you will not go astray after me. How important the person is and how important the reason is, doesn't this alarm you??? Imagine if you and i were there, would we raise any objection??? Would we even dare to object??? It's strange how some people, twist and turn matters around and how they point out that, the matter is weightless and meaningless, just to save someone or a group of people from looking terribly bad.

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How certain people go to such a length that, they make such a straightforward and important matter, so weightless and meaningless, by raising suspicion and casting down and twisting and turning the matter, to such an extent, just to save someones reputations that, they are willing to make the Prophet (pbuh) and his words, look less important in the process.

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If the Prophet (pbuh) said something on his behalf only, for instance lets say that the Prophet (pbuh) said "it is my will wish and desire, that so and so succeed me or i'm the warner and so and so is the guide or who ever among you conseiders and takes me as their mawla,

Then here this that that Ali is your mawla or give me a pen and paper etc etc" and there is no mention of this on the Quran, letter to letter and word to word then, how come the Prophet's word and advise is any less important??? would this not also be a direct part of Shariath???

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Ok, this is understandable that, if one wants to go into investigation to clarify if the Prophet (pbuh) said this or not, or is this fabricated or exagurated but if there is a clear understanding, between Sunnis and Shias that, the Prophet (pbuh) did say, there would be twelve Khalifs (leaders) after me then, why would one disregard.... To be continued!

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Continued. If the Prophet (pbuh) says something, which is accepted by both Ahle Tashee and Ahle Sunnah then, why does brother just the truth have to raise suspicion and cast doubt over it???? Why does he need direct evidence from the Quran for it??? Is the Prophet's (pbuh) Weightless and meaningless??? Why did the Prophet (pbuh) mention about twelve Khalifs after him??? There has been lots of khalifs, leaders of all kind and nature, after the Messenger (pbuh) but why did he single out just twelve from all those??? Why twelve and what was special and important about these twelve??? The Prophet's (pbuh) words must mean something and some sort of importance???

Was it that these twelve were divinely appointed??? If not then what??? If these twelve were the same as the rest of them then, what was the point of the Hadees??? Why single out just twelve and part them from all the rest??? It's obvious that there has to be a reason for this Hadith.

Both Ahle Tashee and Ahle Sunnah believe in the twelve and should also believe in their divine appointment or give an absolute for why they were singled out.

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(1) In something. I did answer your Question? And whats wrong with it? "FEE" which means IN and Shayain means something.

(2) Brother I told you for the last time your a Muslim if your accept Imam Ali (a.s) as your Caliph. But Brother This Question Is Important, Why do you believe he is not appointed?

And Concerning the verse when it was Revealed, Jabir r.a asked the prophet peace be upon him and the prophet Informed him of the Twelve Caliphs.

Also brother If the prophet peace be upon him termed them as "12 Caliphs" in the Bukhari and Muslim, then they are caliphs. And we are the only sect in Islam who follows the Twelve Caliphs. Can you name any other Sect that Believes in the 12 Caliphs?

(wasalam)

Brother islamic history the hadith of the twelve caliphs does not prove a single thing for you.

1. Our caliphs were from QURAISH

2. Your imams were restricted to AHLE BAYT

3. We do not recognise any imam who will go into occultation

4. The name of our imam mahdi a.s father will be abdullah r.a

And here's the hadith from sahih sittah

Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: “The world will not come to an end until the Arabs are ruled by a man from my family whose name is the same as mine and whose father’s name is the same as my father’s.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, 11/370).

But you believe imam mahdi a.s father was hasan a.s whereas we believe the above hadith and the prophets (pbuh) father name was abdullah

Also is it true that imams know the hour of their deaths??

Brother just the truth, it has been made clear to you that, rejecting any of the principals of religion (usool-e-deen), puts you out of the fold of Islam. Let me ask you this, lets say that there is nothing in the Quran what so ever but the Prophet (pbuh) said something, which was solely based on his will, wish and desire, would this not be part of Islam??? Would this not be part of Shariath???

The Prophet (pbuh) was severly ill and he spoke to the people around him, to get him a pen and a paper, so he could right down something for them, so they don't go astray, because of separation and division, due to disagreement and difference after his demise. Does this not tell you that what was going to be written, was definately and absolutely important and would have been straight from the Prophet (pbuh) alone????

What do you think the Prophet (pbuh) was going to write down???? After my demise i want my hat to go to so and so and my shirt to go to so and so and my walking stick to go to so and so and my trousers to go to so and so and my boots must go to so and so and there on??? Ofcourse not! What ever was going to be written was bloody damn important and any person, with a bit of common basic sense would realise that, it had to do with his successor. It had to do with who was going to succeed him. What was more bloody important than this???

Number 1. Stop diverting this topic from verse ulil amr to a hadith which is no solid proof for Imamate.

Number 2. all your questions have answers.

...BUT

they will only be answered once you justify your interpretation of fee shayin

Edited by Just the truth

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Dear brothers and sisters, as you can clearly see and witness that, this is the best and only reply, brother just the truth can give. He has absolutely and completely ran out of gas and is coming to an absolute stand still. What a great discussion.

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Dear brothers and sisters, as you can clearly see and witness that, this is the best and only reply, brother just the truth can give. He has absolutely and completely ran out of gas and is coming to an absolute stand still. What a great discussion.

Yea ok AMEEN... If you say so.

Anyway the day you bring a translation of verse 4:59 proving that fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS, then we'll talk.

You do tehreef then accuse me off "running out of gas", WHAT A JOKE

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Number two, all my questions have answers??? Ok, where are they??? Still waiting and waiting and waiting.

I have given you a detailed reponse and also pointed out your sayings on "fee shay inn". Take a look at my previous posts, which you are deliberately avoiding. I don't think i need to repeat myself, over and over and over again.

You've accused me of tehreef and you haven't proven it till yet. You have made a very serious accusation but haven't given any reason, explanation or justification for it. This is "thohmath" and as your scholars about, what the penalty for such a crime is.

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Number two, all my questions have answers??? Ok, where are they??? Still waiting and waiting and waiting.

I have given you a detailed reponse and also pointed out your sayings on "fee shay inn". Take a look at my previous posts, which you are deliberately avoiding. I don't think i need to repeat myself, over and over and over again.

Actually you're...... WRONG!!!

You can repeat yourself ten times over. It does not make an ounce of a difference that fee shayin does NOT mean in anything WITHIN THIS

AMEEN if I want I can ring you a translation of verse 4:59 BUT why should I. YOU DO YOUR OWN DIRTY WORK.

Edited by Just the truth

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Actually i'm wrong??? Really??? Well, sweet heart, why don't you prove it??? You're quick at accusing and absolutely rubbish at proving. "fee shay inn" doesn't mean "in anything within this" ??Really??? Why don't you prove??? You can't prove or bring anything.

You've really got to get your act together and you need to step up to the mark. You're standing in as a representative of the Ahle'Sunnah but you're not doing any favours to yourself or your party.

Do your own dirty work??? Mr, you really need to watch your language!

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Actually i'm wrong??? Really??? Well, sweet heart, why don't you prove it??? You're quick at accusing and absolutely rubbish at proving. "fee shay inn" doesn't mean "in anything within this" ??Really??? Why don't you prove??? You can't prove or bring anything.

You've really got to get your act together and you need to step up to the mark. You're standing in as a representative of the Ahle'Sunnah but you're not doing any favours to yourself or your party.

Do your own dirty work??? Mr, you really need to watch your language!

AMEEN"do your own dirty work" is NOT even an insult nor did I mean it to be an insult. I'm sorry if you felt insulted brother.

Right like I've been saying for the past week IF I WANT I CAN BRING YOU THE TRANLATION OF VERSE 4:59 FROM BOTH SHIA AND SUNNI SOURCES.

...BUT...

I refuse to. In both translations or even in ANY translation the words fee shayin do not mean in anything WITHIN THIS.

Fee means in

And shayin means anything

If you have a different translation feel free to bring it forward.

Yes I am proudly representing ahle sunnah but you seem to have let ahle shia down!!

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i've put question after question after question forward to you and you've constantly been on the run, so i don't know what the hell you are proud Mr. You said "i can bring both translations from Shia and Sunni sources but i refiuse to", WHY??? What have you got to lose??? May be you can't and you're just saying this, to keep your weight and save yourself from looking silly.

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You said "fee shay inn" does not mean "in anything within this" but it just means "in anything", now if this is the case then, what is the point and place of the Ulul Amre, if all matters need to be referred back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Very simple questions you are frightened of.

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i've put question after question after question forward to you and you've constantly been on the run, so i don't know what the hell you are proud Mr. You said "i can bring both translations from Shia and Sunni sources but i refiuse to", WHY??? What have you got to lose??? May be you can't and you're just saying this, to keep your weight and save yourself from looking silly.

AMEEN you need to understand that 1.5 billion Muslims believe fee shayin means IN ANYTHING and NOT in anything WITHIN THIS. You're the only Muslim who believes fee shayin means in anything WITHIN THIS, so it's now hujjah on you to prove your claim. I WILL NOT BRING YOU A TRANSLATION THAT IS YOUR JOB NOT MINE.

You said "fee shay inn" does not mean "in anything within this" but it just means "in anything", now if this is the case then, what is the point and place of the Ulul Amre, if all matters need to be referred back to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Very simple questions you are frightened of.

SUBHANALLAH. Now you're talking my language MASHALLAH.

AHLE sunnah believe that the ulil amr(s) are fallible so they are bound to trip up here and there so incase they do they are to be referred to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

You should not ask me this question rather ask your own ulema.

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