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In the Name of God بسم الله

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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He hasn't put forward his opinion on quite a few matters.

 

That's one of the many reasons Why we have not been able to reach a Conclusion, In a debate it is Crucial to put forward your opinion on a particular subject and to support ones opinion you need to have a Valid Proof to support it.

(salam)    

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Salam alaykum,   Just the truth, A word of advice: if you want to have a 'discussion' about something, maintain at least the basic level of akhlaq. I've been looking through this thread and in near en

رقم الحديث: 18485 (حديث مرفوع) حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الصُّوفِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ الأَنْصَارِيُّ ، قَالَ : ثنا مُعَاذُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ بَيَّاعُ الْهَرَوِيِّ ، عَنْ عَ

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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Absolutely, With all due respect towards him. You have put forward tons and tons of, reliable and authentic information, straight from the heart of the Ahle Sunnah authentic books but he is just brushing them aside.

The Prophet (pbuh) made it clear, right at the begining, during the invitation of Asheera and he made it clear, right at the end, during the incident of Ghadeer, of who his successor is going to be. Now if someone still wants to turn a blind eye because they have too much to loose if they accept it, then that is down to them, if they are more interested in this life than the here after.

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There are many verses in the Holy Quran that mention an authority, which is third in line to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). In the face of Imaamath, Ulul Amre, Khilaafath, Wali, Imaam-e-Mobeen etc.

 

yes, but Sometimes I don't understand, even verse 5:55 clearly is for Imam Ali (s) and it says obey its Clear as day...? I don't see Abu bakr or Umar or uthman in this?

 

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After such a lengthy discussion, deep down he knows the truth. He accepted it himself but then was probably pushed by his people because the Ahle Sunnah belief/faith was at stake.

We Hope the Best for All, May Allah Guide us All on the Straight path. May Allah Forgive me if I said Anything Wrong in this Discussion and I seek Refuge from that. May Allah be Merciful to us All. May he show us the light of truth. May he Watch over us.

 

"Ya Allah Irham Abdok al Dai'f, Ya Lateef Irham Abdok al Thaleel"

 

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Brothers AMEEN and ISLAMIC history

You have totally and utterly failed to understand what it is that I've been trying to say.

Let me go over it again.

If Imamate is usul ad din then why did Allah (swt) not tell us that he will send imams.

You've seen the verses I gave you for all the other usul ad dins and they are precise as Allah (swt) says in surah 3:7.

Now you've given me verses which don't specifically talk about imams.

Tell me one thing. We all agree that the quran is for the whole ummah yet we all disagree regarding Imamate and caliphate and leadership in general.

Now you've seen the verses I've gave you for all the other usul ad deens are they as clear as day or not. Is there any who can differ regarding prophet Muhammad (pbuh) being the messenger or Allah (swt) being one or the existence of angels or there being four books etc etc. NO

Now because there is not one precise verse in the quran where Allah (swt) says he will send imams we are all divided regarding leadership.

Now let's say for argument sake that verse 5:55 is talking about the Imamate of imam ali(a.s) then after imam ali a.s then what.

Ok. Let's say for argument sake that verse 33:33 was talking about Imamate of the first 3 imams then after that then what???

You see how even shia became divided and so many sects came because there was no precise verse talking about imams??

At most you have what?? Verses for 3 ims and even them are unspecific.

So tell me why would Allah (swt) not send a verse down to tell us about imams with descriptions??

Why would Allah (swt) not mention an usul ad din precisely??? If he says in surah 3:7 that the foundations are in precise verses.

Allah (swt) told us that MUHAMMAD (pbuh) is the APOSTLE of Allah. Allah (swt) told us in the quran that the prophet (pbuh) is the seal of the prophets a.s. Is there anybody in the whole ummah who can differ on this?? NO

Now tell me why if Imamate of your 12 imams is usul then why wouldn't Allah (swt) tell us that he will send imams so nobody in the whole ummah could differ on this issue.

You see there are some sects who say that imate is right some say caliphate is right some say there were 12 some say there were x amount of number some say there are still appointed ims today. Look at all this differing regarding something that according to shia is an usul.

Even with sunni hadith regarding 12 caliphs we are left confused because we are not told who they are. The very minimal info we are given is that they are all from QURAISH. We are not told that they were sent by Allah so any clan from QURAISH can claim caliphate and easily say that it is their caliphs.

What I'm trying to get at is that if we had precise verses like the ones I mentioned above regarding Imamate then the ummah would never be confused.

After such a lengthy discussion, deep down he knows the truth. He accepted it himself but then was probably pushed by his people because the Ahle Sunnah belief/faith was at stake.

What are you talking about now.

It is you and not me who cannot face the truth.

Tell me what does fee shayin mean??

Does it mean IN ANYTHING like I've been saying

Or ANYTHING IN THIS like you've been saying

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Statement:

If Imamate is usul ad din then why did Allah not tell us that he will send imams.

 

If a verse mentions that there will be a Khalifa for All times, Or to obey those in Authority among you for all time, There will be guide for all time, Do you no understand? Or is it just that you desire something to use as a hujja to not accept what I have given to you? You Have yet to object to my previous Posts before Spamming the same Question.
 

 

Statement:

You've seen the verses I gave you for all the other usul ad dins and they are precise as Allah  says in surah 3:7. Now you've given me verses which don't specifically talk about imams. Tell me one thing. We all agree that the quran is for the whole ummah yet we all disagree regarding Imamate and caliphate and leadership in general. 

 

Actually we Disagree on many things even in jurisprudence issues due to the were we both rather take our ahadith, In general Ahlul-Sunnah take more sayings from Ahlul-bayt, and the irony is that most of them opposed Imam Ali (s) and his Ahlulbayt and taking the Khalifas ( in power of the throne ) as there Khalifa in this world and the Hereafter. can you please state the verses Which I have mentioned where it does not prove Imamah? ( to support your stance, perhaps Provide proper Proof )

 

 

Statement:
Now you've seen the verses I've gave you for all the other usul ad deens are they as clear as day or not. Is there any who can differ regarding prophet Muhammad (S) being the messenger or Allah  being one or the existence of angels or there being four books etc etc. NO Now because there is not one precise verse in the quran where Allah  says he will send imams we are all divided regarding leadership.

 

 

Please state the verses Which you found that are not Precise about Leadership (Khilafa/Imamah) and object to each of them and to the Ahadith I made on this page and page 18 as I proved to you that the Twelve Khalifas are Divinely appointed. ( To support your Objection perhaps Provide Authentic proof)


 

 

Statement:

Now let's say for argument sake that verse 5:55 is talking about the Imamate of imam ali(a.s) then after imam ali a.s then what.

 

Who Do you think Imam Ali (s) Appointed after him? Imam Hassan (s), and Who Killed and Fought Imam Hassan? Muwaiyah. Who did Imam Hassan (s) Appoint After him? Imam Hussain (s), And Who Fought Imam Hussain (s) and the Ahlulbayt (s)? Yazid (LA) who Muiahyah saw fit to appoint him. Why did Muwaiyah and Yaizd (LA) fight Ahlulbayt (s)? because the True Khalifas of their time Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (s) Refused to give Ba'ya to them. And lets not forget the oppression which the Ummiayahds caused During there Evil leadership and lets not forget who put them there in that position ( umar ibn al khattab ) Who burned the house of Fatima (s).
 

 

Statement:

Ok. Let's say for argument sake that verse 33:33 was talking about Imamate of the first 3 imams then after that then what???

 

The Nine sons Of Imam Hussain (s) are of Ahlulbayt (s).

 

Sheikh Ahmed Al-Mahoozi:

 

Sheikh Sadooq (r.a) said Ahmed ibn Ziyad Ibn Ja'far Al-Hamdani narrated from Alee ibn Ibraheem narrated from his father from Muhammad ibn Abi Umayr from Qayath Ibn Ibraheem from Al-Sadiq Ja'far ibn Muhammad (a.s) from his father Muhammad ibn Alee from his father Alee ibn Al-Hussain (a.s) from his father Al-Hussain (a.s) said: Amir al-Momineen Alee (a.s) was asked about the saying of the Prophet (saw): "I am leaving among you the two weighty things, the book of Allah and my family." He was asked who are the family? He replied: "Me, Al-Hassan, Al-Hussain and the nine imams from the progeny of Imam Hussain (a.s) the ninth one is the Mahdi and the Qa'im they do not separate the book of Allah neither is it separate from them until they meet the Prophet (saw) at lake-fount (Kawthar)."

Footnote: Ma'ani Al-Akhbar and its chain is Saheeh (Authentic) and its narrators are trustworthy and the trusted faqih Al-Fadhl b. Shathan narrated it in Kitab Al-Raja'a from Abi Umayr (r.a) and Al-Hurr Al-Aamili in Ithbat Al-Hudah as well as Sadooq with a chain from Ja'far ibn Muhammad iUmara from Al-Saddiq (a.s) from his fathers (a.s).

Source: Hadeeth Al-Thaqalain Wa' Maqamat Ahlulbayt. Pg. # 120.

 

 

 

702562_470704192987006_486737507_n.jpg711013_470704189653673_309076285_n.jpg

 

 

Sheikh Sadooq:

 
Ahmed ibn Zayd ibn Jaffar al Hamdani narrated from, Alee ibn Ibraheem ibn Hashim narrated from his father, from Muhammad ibn Abi Umayr, narrated from Ghayath ibn Ibraheem, from Jaffar ibn Muhammad (a.s) from his father Muhammad ibn Alee (a.s) from his father Alee ibn Al-Hussain (a.s) from his father Al-Hussain (a.s) said: Amir al-Momineen (a.s) was asked of the saying of the Prophet (saw): "I am leaving among you the book of Allah and my family." So he (a.s) said, "Me and Hassan and Hussain and the nine Imams from Hussain their ninth is their Qa'im and Mahdi (ajf) they do not separate from the book of Allah nor does it separate from them until they go back to the Prophet (saw) to the Pool."

Note: The chain is the same Saheeh (Authentic) chain as the previous one.
 
Source: Ayoon Akhbar-e-Raza. Vol. 1, Pg. # 60, H. 25.

 

 

 

Cover+Uyoon+Al-Akhbar+Al-RezaVol1.jpgUyoon+Al-Akhbar+Al-RezaVol1.jpg

 

 

 

As we have already pointed out, only five members of Ahlul-Bayt were alive at the time of the Prophet(pbuh&hf). They were Prophet Muhammad, Lady Fatimah, Imam Ali, Imam al-Hasan, and Imam al-Husain. They were mentioned as Ahlul-Bayt by the Prophet(pbuh&hf) and the most important Sunni collections testify to this fact.  However the nine descendants of Imam al-Husain were not alive at that time so that the Prophet could not cover them by his mantle! But the Prophet did, in fact, mention their names and their numbers. Let us review some traditions from Sihah Sittah: 

 

The Prophet(pbuh&hf) said: "al-Mahdi is one of us Ahlul-Bayt."
Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4085
also:

The Prophet([buh&hf) said: "The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter).

Sunni references:

1. Sunan Abi Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271 (narrated by Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)

2. Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086
3. al-Nisa'i and al-Bayhaqi, and others as quoted in:
4. al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
By the above traditions, the Prophet extended Ahlul-Bayt up to Imam al-Mahdi(as). So Ahlul-Bayt are not just those five, and Imam al-Mahdi is the last member of Ahlul-Bayt, but he was not born at the time of the Prophet so that he could take him into the Cloak as well! Also the messenger of Allah said:

"There shall be twelve Imams/Caliphs/Amirs for my nation"

Sunni references:
1. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v9, Tradition #329;
2. Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV, v3, pp 1009-1010, Traditions #4476 --> #4483;
3. Sunan Abi Dawud, v2, p421 (three traditions);
4. Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v4, p501;
5. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p106;
6. Others such as al-Tiyalasi, Ibn al-Athir, etc.

These 12 Imams will cover till the day of resurrection as Sahih Muslim testifies. The last of them is surely Imam al-Mahdi(s) who will appear in the last days and who is also from Ahlul-Bayt as the above tradition specified. There are other traditions in the Sunni collections in which the Prophet(pbuh&hf) has even mentioned the name of all these twelve individuals one by one. 

"A Jew named al-A`tal came to the Prophet and said, "Muhammad! I wish to ask you about certain things which I have been keeping to myself; so, if you answer them, I shall declare my acceptance of Islam before you." The Prophet said, "Ask me, O father of Imarah!" So he asked him about many things till he was satisfied and admitted that the Prophet was right. Then he said, "Tell me about your wasi (successor): who is he? No prophet can ever be without a wasi; our prophet Moses had appointed Yusha` [Joshua] son of Noon as his successor." He said, "My wasi is Ali ibn Abu Talib followed by my grandsons al-Hasan and al-Husayn followed by nine men from the loins of al-Husayn." He said, "Then name them for me, O Muhammad!" The Prophet said, "Once al-Husayn departs, he will be succeeded by his son Ali; when Ali departs, his son Muhammad will succeed him. When Muhammad departs, his son Ja`far will succeed him. When Ja`far departs, he will be succeeded by his son Musa. When Musa departs, his son Ali will succeed him. When Ali departs, his son Muhammad will succeed him. When Muhammad departs, his son Ali will succeed him. When Ali departs, his son al-Hasan will succeed him, and when al-Hasan departs, al-Hujjah Muhammad al-Mahdi will succeed him. These are the twelve ones." That Jew, therefore, embraced Islam and praised Allah for having guided him."

 

 

-Source: Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, Page 440

 

 

 

Note: I proved to you not to long ago in a post I said that I made for you "Obeying Imam Mahdi Is Obligatory" That the Father of Imam al Mahdi (a.f) was Imam hassan al Askari and so on, leading us to Imam Hussain (s). (From Authentic Traditions) 
 

 

 

 

Statement:

You see how even shia became divided and so many sects came because there was no precise verse talking about imams??

  

Thank you for the Insult. brother your using Pathetic Reasons to not accept what has already been proven. Do you even know how many Sects are in the Ahlul-Sunnah to begin with? 

 

 

Statement:

At most you have what?? Verses for 3 ims and even them are unspecific.

 

 

I believe there is more than three. Please write a Proper objection to them and Provide 
Proof to support your stance.

 

Statement:

So tell me why would Allah  not send a verse down to tell us about imams with descriptions??

 

Read my previous Answer on Page 19 ( Second/third ) last Reply.

(1) Can you tell me why the Instruction on how to actually pray Salat are not Provided in the Quran?

 

Your Narrow Minded to the point of Excluding your own Ahadith? (the Six Sahihs). very Ironic. So now do you accept Imam Ali (s) as your Imam? or not?

 

 

Statement:

Why would Allah not mention an usul ad din precisely??? If he says in surah 3:7 that the foundations are in precise verses.

 

And Who said that it was only Restricted to 3:7? Did you no read the other verses? 

 

 

Statement:

Allah  told us that MUHAMMAD (s) is the APOSTLE of Allah. Allah (s) told us in the quran that the prophet (s) is the seal of the prophets a.s. Is there anybody in the whole ummah who can differ on this?? NO

 

And the prophet (s) Told the Whole Ummah that Imam Ali (s) is the Successor, So Why ignore it?

 

 

Statement:

Now tell me why if Imamate of your 12 imams is usul then why wouldn't Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tell us that he will send imams so nobody in the whole ummah could differ on this issue.

 

Did you read the verses I mentioned? Clearly There Will always be a Khalifa on earth From the beginning of this life to its end? Did All not say he Will put a Khalifa on this earth or not? Did he not tell you to obey the prophet and Imam Ali or not? And to Obey them, is to take what they said?

 

 

 

Statement:

You see there are some sects who say that imate is right some say caliphate is right some say there were 12 some say there were x amount of number some say there are still appointed ims today. Look at all this differing regarding something that according to shia is an usul.

 

 Again your Pointing Our false Excuses over what we have proved to you? When we say or you say the "shia" this means the followers of Ahlulbayt (s) to the very end ( Imam Mahdi (s) ) One Who does not believe in such is not Considered as a Shia (follower) of Ahlulbayt (s).  I  gave you the list of the twelve Imams and whats Ironic you know very Well that Imam Ja'afar Al Sadiq (s) taught Abu Hanifa and Malik and later on came the other Schools of thought. So where did they get there Knowledge from? Do I even need to give you Hadith's to Prove this?

 

 

Statement:

Even with sunni hadith regarding 12 caliphs we are left confused because we are not told who they are. The very minimal info we are given is that they are all from QURAISH. We are not told that they were sent by Allah so any clan from QURAISH can claim caliphate and easily say that it is their caliphs.

  

(1) the prophet (s) Said They Will be appointed and they Will govern the Affairs of the people.
(2) Proved it, to you on page 19. Any Objections/Refutations? 



Statement:

What I'm trying to get at is that if we had precise verses like the ones I mentioned above regarding Imamate then the ummah would never be confused.

 

In this Discussion:

(1) you Refuted the Six Sahihs of Ahlul-Sunnah
(2) you refuted the Respected Scholars of AhlulSunnah Who I mentioned some of them the Authors of the Six Sahihs and other books.
(3) Did Not Put Foward your opinion On Many issues.
(4) You deny the verses Which are very Precise about leadership as I proved they are, and your Refutation was Simple Denial with out proof.


 

 

Statement:

Does it mean IN ANYTHING like I've been saying Or ANYTHING IN THIS like you've been saying 
 

 

Does it make a Difference to you? if it does Please Explain? and if you do make sure its not what we have already proven.


May Allah Guide us All.


(salam)

   

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Correction: 

 

 

 

Actually we Disagree on many things even in jurisprudence issues due to the were we both rather take our ahadith, In general Ahlul-Sunnah take more sayings from Ahlul-bayt, and the irony is that most of them opposed Imam Ali (s) and his Ahlulbayt and taking the Khalifas ( in power of the throne ) as there Khalifa in this world and the Hereafter. can you please state the verses Which I have mentioned where it does not prove Imamah? ( to support your stance, perhaps Provide proper Proof )

I meant: They Take more Ahadith from the Sahabah. 


Note: Some other Spelling Errors. Due to typing Quickly.

(salam)

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Salam

bro ameen/theislamichostory/justhetruth

sorry for this interruption.

 

[Shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

 

This verse talks about mukmin (O you who believe). my understanding is that, a mukmin is someone who believes in Allah's Oneness and Prophethood of the Holy Prophet, among other things.

So, I'm curious: why Allah say “if you believe in Allah and the last day” instead of, for example “if you believe in Allah and Rasul”. Do you think any significance is attached to it?

 

Jazakallahhu khair

 

 

 



   

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Like always you havnt answered the question directly but you're again running in circles.

1. This is exactly what I mean take a look at the verses I gave you for the other usul ad dins look how precise they are with names and additional details. Now look at the verses you are using. Even if there had to be a guide for all times what proof have you got that it is your imams and no one else's.

2. Brother stop dodging the main question. Firstly you havnt proven the concept if imamat and even IF you could prove it we still left stuck because imams of other sects could easily say it is them.

3. Not a single one is precise.

4. When did imam ali appoint imam hasan?? When did imam Hasan appoint imam hussein do you have clear proof for this claim?? How can your imams appoint when iris the right of Allah to appoint REMEMBER!! Do you have clear proof that Allah (swt) appointed them one after the other.

5. And that hadith is hujja on who exactly???

6. YOU SAID

The Prophet([buh&hf) said: "The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter).

There shall be twelve Imams/Caliphs/Amirs for my nation"

MY ANSWER

When have I denied hadith number 1?? NEVER

As for imam mahdi then my brother you are massively mistaken if you think that our imam mahdi is the same person.

1. The mahdi which we await will be the son of abdullah and not hasan alaskari.

2. Our imam mahdi will appear and remove tyranny from the world.

Yours canes and did not remove tyranny and instead went into occultation

Nowhere does it in sunni books or quran that he will come then go into occultation then reappear and then remove tyranny.

7. How is that an insult? It is you who is using pathetic reasons trying to make your hadith hujja on the ummah.

8. How so?? Prove it from quran that it is your imams that are the correct ones because your hadiths are hujjah only on you. SO LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING. HADITH IS DEFINATELY NOT ENOUGH.

9. What kind of answer is this??

We talking about usul's and not furus!! I've given you clear cut verses regarding the prophet hood of Muhammad (pbuh) the names of the holy books etc etc.

10. YOU SAID

And Who said that it was only Restricted to 3:7? Did

MY ANSWER

you've kinda lost me but I think I know what your trying to say. Verse 3:7 does not ACTUALLY prove any usul it only tells us the the usul's are in precise verses. Think of verse 3:7 as a guideline.

11. YOU SAID

And the prophet (s) Told the Whole Ummah that Imam Ali (s) is the Successor, So Why ignore it?

MY ANSWER

Firstly no the prophet (pbuh) never. Secondly let's say for argument sake that the prophet (pbuh) appointed ali a.s then you see this is where the confusing bit starts. Which sect of shia is right because they all claim to be "followers" of ali a.s

12. Revise previous answers

13. YOU SAID

Again your Pointing Our false Excuses over what we have proved to you? When we say or you say the "shia" this means the followers of Ahlulbayt (s) to the very end ( Imam Mahdi (s) ) One Who does not believe in such is not Considered as a Shia (follower) of Ahlulbayt (s). I gave you the list of the twelve Imams and whats Ironic you know very Well that Imam Ja'afar Al Sadiq (s) taught Abu Hanifa and Malik and later on came the other Schools of thought. So where did they get there Knowledge from? Do I even need to give you Hadith's to Prove this?

MY ANSWER

So Ismaili are not shia nor are zaydi nor are the rest??

HOW NICE!!

They all claim to be followers of AHLE BAYT and until you can't prove to the ummah that your imams are right ones this accusation of yours means nothing. I hope you're starting to understand what I'm saying now and why we need clear verses from quran mentioning the names of the imams.

14. You havnt proven a single thing

15. Excuse me but what are you talking about

16. Yes if course it makes a big difference. He has adamantly tried to switch fee shayin to shayin fee even after I explained to him and he till this day has not proven his claim.

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Salaam brother just the truth. let me try and explain this to you in very simple terms. Obviously you are not interested in all the authentic information that, is put forward to you by brother Islam history because you are only just interested in the Quran and nothing else, at this precise moment.

 

My dear brother, Allah has said and done things, in mysterious ways. In some matters he is clear and absolute but in others he has only pointed out and signaled. In some matters Allah is firm and precise but in others he is silent and on the watch. In some matters Allah is and has spoken, in general but in others he is and has spoken, in particular.In some matters Allah has clearly given an explanation and reasoning but in some matters he has said " inni a'alamo mala talamoon" meaning I know of that, which you don't and has just left the matter there. Allah has put up such a stance through out all revelations, right from the begining.

 

I am just going to give you a few examples, due to shortage of time and the rest later. Satan was known as Iblees. He was one of Allah's greatest companions. His performance, character and achievement speak and tell it all. He was the only individual, from the Gene community, who worked his way up, straight into Allah's administration. Now it is very clear that Allah has the knowledge of everything. He is aware of the unknown. So having the knowledge of all this, why didn't Allah just throw him into hell, right from the very start and saved himself the humiliation and insult, by Iblees not bowing (sajdah) to Hazrath Adam (as) on the orders of the Lord??? In fact Allah went further and allowed him a very long and healthy life and gave him the opportunity to, screw the off springs of Hazrath Adam (as), just because of his personal grudge with Hazrath Adam (as) and not with any of us??? Why didn't Allah just throw Iblees in to hell and just saved us from all this hassle, of going astray and committing sin, to begin with, if he really cared about us???

 

You see Allah knows better and I can give tons and tons of questions like this, based on why, its and buts. Tell me has/did Allah clearly say in the Bible (injeel) what was going to happen to Hazrath Eesaa (as)??? How the Jews are going to crucify him but Allah has mysterious and hidden plans of keeping Hazrath Eesaa (as) alive and uplifting him, to a safe and secure location, for future purpose and use. If Allah had mentioned precisely in the Bible, what he mentioned in the Quran so many decades and centuries after, that Hazrath Eesaa (as) will not be crucified but will be saved by being uplifted to a safe and secure location by his lord and will receive rizk from his Lord for a future purpose and use, then we also wouldn't be divided today, with our Christian brothers.


Brother just the truth, Allah didn't say precisely in the Bible (injeel) that, Eesaa (as), will eventually be crucified right in front of the eyes of the people but be aware that, he actually wil not be crucified but will be uplifted to safety and security by his Lord and the one who will be crucified, will actually be a clone of Eesaa (as) and not himself. 


Allah has said in the Quran "Kun fa yakoon" meaning "be and it becomes or happen and it happens" but further on Allah says "I created the universe in six days". Now Allah has said two different things here and one can very easily be confused or be the cause of confusion that, Allah already has the power to say "be and it becomes or happen and it happens" then why the hell does he need SIX DAYS to create the universe???


Allah has clearly said in the Quran that, if one dies without recognition about the Imaam of his generation and time then, one has died the death of an arrogant and ignorant. Now if this is not a precise verse for Imaamath then, i don't know what the hell is. Why would Allah want you to recognize a man made, a man appointed Imaam, who can and have been up to all sorts??? It is obvious that, Allah is being clear and precise about his appointed only.


Allah has pointed out and signaled towards a third line of authority among us, that is exactly what these verses are for and mean but you use these verses as a seal of approval, as some sort of assurance and guarantee, of what happened and went on, on the ground. You use these verses to justify what the Muslim Ummah did and how they ran things. If Ulul Amre means (Hakim-e-Waqth) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was the Ulul Amre of the Muslim Ummah then, who is the Ulul Amre of the Muslim Ummah now??? Or do we just accept what the Muslim Ummah did and how they went along, by creating boundaries on a geographical basis and now we don't have just one Ulul Amre but many??? Do we use Allah's words and justify our own doing or do we adjust our doing according to Allah's words???

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Salaam brother just the truth. let me try and explain this to you in very simple terms. Obviously you are not interested in all the authentic information that, is put forward to you by brother Islam history because you are only just interested in the Quran and nothing else, at this precise moment.

My dear brother, Allah has said and done things, in mysterious ways. In some matters he is clear and absolute but in others he has only pointed out and signaled. In some matters Allah is firm and precise but in others he is silent and on the watch. In some matters Allah is and has spoken, in general but in others he is and has spoken, in particular.In some matters Allah has clearly given an explanation and reasoning but in some matters he has said " inni a'alamo mala talamoon" meaning I know of that, which you don't and has just left the matter there. Allah has put up such a stance through out all revelations, right from the begining.

I am just going to give you a few examples, due to shortage of time and the rest later. Satan was known as Iblees. He was one of Allah's greatest companions. His performance, character and achievement speak and tell it all. He was the only individual, from the Gene community, who worked his way up, straight into Allah's administration. Now it is very clear that Allah has the knowledge of everything. He is aware of the unknown. So having the knowledge of all this, why didn't Allah just throw him into hell, right from the very start and saved himself the humiliation and insult, by Iblees not bowing (sajdah) to Hazrath Adam (as) on the orders of the Lord??? In fact Allah went further and allowed him a very long and healthy life and gave him the opportunity to, screw the off springs of Hazrath Adam (as), just because of his personal grudge with Hazrath Adam (as) and not with any of us??? Why didn't Allah just throw Iblees in to hell and just saved us from all this hassle, of going astray and committing sin, to begin with, if he really cared about us???

You see Allah knows better and I can give tons and tons of questions like this, based on why, its and buts. Tell me has/did Allah clearly say in the Bible (injeel) what was going to happen to Hazrath Eesaa (as)??? How the Jews are going to crucify him but Allah has mysterious and hidden plans of keeping Hazrath Eesaa (as) alive and uplifting him, to a safe and secure location, for future purpose and use. If Allah had mentioned precisely in the Bible, what he mentioned in the Quran so many decades and centuries after, that Hazrath Eesaa (as) will not be crucified but will be saved by being uplifted to a safe and secure location by his lord and will receive rizk from his Lord for a future purpose and use, then we also wouldn't be divided today, with our Christian brothers.

Brother just the truth, Allah didn't say precisely in the Bible (injeel) that, Eesaa (as), will eventually be crucified right in front of the eyes of the people but be aware that, he actually wil not be crucified but will be uplifted to safety and security by his Lord and the one who will be crucified, will actually be a clone of Eesaa (as) and not himself.

Allah has said in the Quran "Kun fa yakoon" meaning "be and it becomes or happen and it happens" but further on Allah says "I created the universe in six days". Now Allah has said two different things here and one can very easily be confused or be the cause of confusion that, Allah already has the power to say "be and it becomes or happen and it happens" then why the hell does he need SIX DAYS to create the universe???

Allah has clearly said in the Quran that, if one dies without recognition about the Imaam of his generation and time then, one has died the death of an arrogant and ignorant. Now if this is not a precise verse for Imaamath then, i don't know what the hell is. Why would Allah want you to recognize a man made, a man appointed Imaam, who can and have been up to all sorts??? It is obvious that, Allah is being clear and precise about his appointed only.

Allah has pointed out and signaled towards a third line of authority among us, that is exactly what these verses are for and mean but you use these verses as a seal of approval, as some sort of assurance and guarantee, of what happened and went on, on the ground. You use these verses to justify what the Muslim Ummah did and how they ran things. If Ulul Amre means (Hakim-e-Waqth) and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was the Ulul Amre of the Muslim Ummah then, who is the Ulul Amre of the Muslim Ummah now??? Or do we just accept what the Muslim Ummah did and how they went along, by creating boundaries on a geographical basis and now we don't have just one Ulul Amre but many??? Do we use Allah's words and justify our own doing or do we adjust our doing according to Allah's words???

I dont understand exactly what it is you're trying to say?? Please explain Edited by Just the truth
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(bismillah)

 

Statement:

This is exactly what I mean take a look at the verses I gave you for the other usul ad dins look how precise they are with names and additional details. Now look at the verses you are using. Even if there had to be a guide for all times what proof have you got that it is your imams and no one else's.

 

What proof do I have? Do you read? no really? do you actually read the Hadi'ths, Which I have been Putting out on this post and the previous post? Why do you prefer Ignorance? I proved to you:

(1) Imam Ali (s) is the Khalifa.
(2) The verse: For every nation/people where is a guide is for Imam Ali (s) and the prophet (s) said so.
(3) The Identity of Ahlulbayt (s)
(4) The Crimes of Abu bakr & Umar ibn Al Khattab
(5) The Identity of the Twelve Khalifas.
(6) The Infallibility of the Ahlulbayt (s).

And yet you keep Claiming What Proof do I have? you are Absolutely Pathetic my dear brother. And What Proof have you provided to prove Shura? and the Khilafa of the fasle Khalifa abu bakr, Umar, uthman and the rest? Where is your proof of who are the twelve khalifas? Whats there identity? Who are they? 

 

     

statement:

Brother stop dodging the main question. Firstly you havnt proven the concept if imamat and even IF you could prove it we still left stuck because imams of other sects could easily say it is them.

 

Brother you must be Somehow Blind or just not reading. First of All I proved to you the Leadership (khilafa) Existed throughout time to the time of ptophet Muhammad (s). Why are you lying? No please tell me? Second of all, What has the Imams of other sects got to do with us? I gave you Hadiths proving there Identity? if You want to debate on this issue, then your Welcome to object to my Ahadith and prove to me the "True" identities of your Interpretation of the twelve Khalifas? go ahead. I am waiting.
 

  

 

Statement:

Not a single one is precise. 

 

Is this Answer? statement? Please Before provide Proof to support your statement. What kind of Answer is this? Do you even know the Principals of how to engage in a proper debate?
 

 

Statement:
When did imam ali appoint imam hasan?? When did imam Hasan appoint imam hussein do you have clear proof for this claim?? How can your imams appoint when iris the right of Allah to appoint REMEMBER!! Do you have clear proof that Allah appointed them one after the other. 

  

 

(1) When I say Appoint in the means that the Imam Declared to his Followers the Khalifa after him. 
(2) If the prophet (s) says There Will be Twelve Khalifas, Then Allah has made a a choice, and Declared he Will put twelve Khalifas. And As we Showed to you in the verse only Allah Appoints Khalifas and No one ells.
(3) The Imams have knowledge of the Unseen and the Book of Allah.
(4) yes, I have proved it so in the following topic: 
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016809-sunni-hadith-for-names-of-12-caliphs/page-3

  

 

Statement:

And that hadith is hujja on who exactly???

 

Which one? Do you mean that one Where Imam Ali is the Khalifa? and the Identity of the Twelve Imams?
 

 

Statement:

When have I denied hadith number 1?? NEVER

 

Really? Mashalla.....So you accept Imam Ali (s) as the Imam? Do you accept the Twelve Khalifas? Do you now know the crimes of the three Khalifas? 
 

 

Statement:

As for imam mahdi then my brother you are massively mistaken if you think that our imam mahdi is the same person. The mahdi which we await will be the son of abdullah and not hasan alaskari.

 

Again you have prove your self, that you do not read, but Ignore and take what ever you can to Answer back. Second of All, no my dear brother Imam Muhammad al Mahdi (s) is the Son of Imam hassan al Askari (s):
 

The following are the name of some Sunni scholars who wrote that Imam al-Mahdi has already been born, and is the only son of Imam Hasan al-Askari  (as), and he is alive and in occultation, and will re-appear to establish the government of Justice. With this, they are in agreement with the Shia. Their names are:


1. Kamal al-Din Ibn Talha, in his book "Matalib al-Su'aal Fi Manaqib Aal al-Rasool"
 
2. Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi' al-Mawaddah" who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.
 

3. Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji, al-Shafi'i, (d. 658 AH), the author of "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman" and "Kifayah al-Talib".
 


4. Shaikh Nooruddin Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Sabbagh, al-Maliki, from Mecca, in his book "al-Fusool al-Muhimmah", pp 310,319.
 


5. Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Hashim al-Baladhuri is one of the great scholars and traditionists who also asserts the Imamat and occultation of the twelfth Imam in his book called "al-Hadith al-Mutasalsil"
 


6. Ibn Arabi (Muhyiddin Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Arabi), al-Hanbali, in his book "Al-Futuhat al-Makkia" (Chapter 366) discusses a detailed account of the birth of al-Mahdi, son of al-Askari (S), and of his re-appearance before the day of resurrection.
 


7.Ibn Khashab (Abu Muhammad Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Khashab), has given a detailed account of the twelfth Imam in his biographical book called "Tawarikh Mawaleed al-A'imma wa Wafiyatihim"
 


8. Shaikh Abdullah Sha'rani (d. 905 AH), the celebrated Sufi, in his work "Yaqaqeet", Chapter 66, deals with the birth and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Also He extensively talks about Imam al-Mahdi  (as) in his other book "Aqa'id al-Akabir".
 


9. Shaikh Hasan Iraqi who accepts the twelfth Imam, praises Sha'rani as a pious and a learned ascetic, and narrates the story of Sha'rani's meeting with the twelfth Imam.
 


10. Sayyid Ali, known as Khawas, the teacher of Sha'rani, also a believer of the twelfth Imam, confirms what Shaikh Hasan asserted about the meeting of Sha'rani with the twelfth Imam.
 


11. Nooruddin Abdul Rahman Ibn Ahmad, known as Mulla Jami, in his book Shawahid al-Nubuwwah (The Evidence of Prophethood of Muhammad) gives an account of the birth of the twelfth Imam and his statement is in complete agreement with the Shia records.
 


12. Muhammad Ibn Mahmood al-Bukhari, al-Hanafi, known as Khawaja Parsa in his book "Fasl al-Khitab" gives the account of the birth, occultation, and re-appearance of the twelfth Imam.
 


13. Shaikh Abdul Haq Dehlawi, in his book "Jazb e Qulub", narrates the statements of Hakima, the daughter of the ninth Imam who was asked by the eleventh Imam, Imam al-Askari, to stay with Narjis, mother of the last Imam during the night at the end of which she gave birth to her son.
 


14. Sayyid Jamaluddin Husaini Muhaddith who is the author of the celebrated book "Rawdhat al-Ahbab". According to Dayar Bakri, Mulla Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi, "Rawdhat al-Ahbab" is one of the reliable sources of reference. The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most reverential terms. He states:

 

The auspicious birth of the pearl of the Vicegerency and the precious form of the mine of guidance took place on the 15th of Sha'ban in the year of 225 AH at Samarra. He has described the Imam in the following words:


 

 

  •  
  • al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar (the expected Mahdi)
  • al-Khalaf al-Salih (the righteous successor)
  • Sahib al-Zaman (the master of the time)

 


15. al-Arif Abdul Rahman Sufi, in his works "Mir'at al-Asrar" (The Mirror of Mysteries) gives a detailed account of the birth, and the occultation of the twelfth Imam.
 


16. Ali Akbar, son of Asadullah Maududi, in his book Mukashifaat (Visions), which is a commentary on "Nafahat al-Uns" by Abdurrahman Jami, asserts the existence of the Mahdi as being the pole of guidance after his father Imam Hasan al-Askari, who was also the pole of guidance and Imamat.
 


17. Malik al-Ulama Dulatabadi who is a well known scholar, in his work "Hidayat al-Saada" has confirmed the Imamat and the occultation of al-Mahdi.
 


18. Nasr Ibn Ali Jahzami Nasri, one of the most reliable reporters of traditions whom Khateeb al-Baghdadi has praised him in his works on history, and Yusuf Ganji al-Shafi'i, in his book Manaqib has introduced Nasr as one of the masters of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Nasr asserts the existence of:

 

Qa'im Aale Muhammad (The 'Support' among the family of Muhammad), the one among the Imams of the House of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) whose duty is to establish Islam throughout the world.
 


19. Mulla Ali Qari, one of the greatest traditionists, in his famous book, "Mirqat", talks about Imam al-Mahdi after mentioning the celebrated statement of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) that after him there would be twelve successors (Caliphs). Mulla Ali states whether they are in power or not makes no difference as they are the rightful Imams.
 


20. Kazi Jawad Sibti was a Christian but later became a Muslim. He wrote "Baraheen Sibtiyya" (Proofs forwarded by Sibti), which is a refutation of the Christian writers. He narrates the Prophecy from Ashaya (Joshua) concerning the coming of a man from the chosen branch of the chosen lineage of Adam who would be the seat of the spirit. In other words, he will be filled with the spirit of wisdom, sympathy, justice and knowledge and he will be God fearing. God will bestow on him a sound and glorying reason and make him firm. His judgment would be based on hearing an external evidence, but he will have a guided insight about everything and judge people according to what they really are in their hearts. He further states that his method of judgment is peculiar to him and has not been adopted by any prophet or Vice-regent of God. The Muslims are unanimous that the Mahdi of this description shall be descendant of Fatimah, daughter of the holy Prophet (PBUH&HF). Particularly the view of the Shia seems to be real interpretation of this real prophecy.
 


21. Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Hanafi, (Shams al-Din Abul Mudhaffar Yusuf), the author of "Tathkirat al-Khawas", pp 325-328 gives the names of 22 people believed by Muslims to have lived various ages from 3,000 down to 300 years! He also writes about the twelfth Imam as follows

  •  
  • He (al-Mahdi) is Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Ibn Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Musa al-Ridha
  • His title is Abu Abdillah and Abul Qasim
  • He is the last successor of the Prophet (PBUH&HF)
  • He is the Last Imam of the House
  • He is the authoritative proof of God (al-Hujjah)
  • He is the master of time (Sahib al-Zaman)
  • and he is the expected one (al-Muntadhar)

 


22. Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn Hasan al-Bayhaqi, the famous Shafi'i jurist, has confirmed the birth of the son of al-Askari and his being as the expected Mahdi.
 


23. Shaikh Sadruddin, known as Hamavi, who has written a book about the Last Imam of the House of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). He quotes a tradition of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) as follows

 

Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The learned one among my followers are in the rank of the Prophets from among the Children of Israel", also referring to the twelve Naqeeb (chiefs)of the Children of Israel (see Quran 5:12). But the last Wali, who is the last of the successors of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and who is the Twelfth Wali in the chain of Awliaa, is al-Mahdi, "Sahib al-Zaman", his appellation and title should not be used for any one else.
 


24. Shaikh Ahmad Jami, (as quoted by Qundoozi, author of "Yanabi al- Mawaddah", and Qadhi Noorullah author of "Majalis al-Mu'mineen") has composed the following poem:

My heart is fine and bright with the love of Haydar
Next to Haydar, al-Hasan is our Guide and Leader. 
The dust beneath the Shoes of al-Husain
is the eyeliner (surmah) for my eyes. 
al-Abideen, the ornament of all devotees
is like a crown on my head. 
al-Baqir is the light of both my eyes. 
The religion of Ja'far is true and the path of Musa is right. 
O, loyal, ones: listen to me praising the King of Kings (al-Ridha) 
who is buried in Khurasan. 
A particle from the dust of his tomb is the cure of all pains
Leader of men of faith is al-Taqi, O dear Muslims
If you love al-Naqi in preference to all other people, 
you have done the thing which is proper and right. 
al-Askari is the light of the eyes of both Adam and the world. 
Where can be found, in the world, 
such a chief in command like al-Mahdi?

 


25. Shaikh Amir Ibn Basri has composed an eulogy called Qasidah Tayya. The composition contains theosophical lore, maxims, mystical points, and matter of etiquette. Here are some lines quoted:

O' Imam al-Mahdi! How long will You be hidden?
Oblige us, O' our father, with your return! 
We feel sad the waiting time is prolonged. 
For the sake of Thy Lord, bless us with your audience. 
O the pole of being! Hasten, O our beloved! 
Return, so that we may enjoy the sight. 
Surely, it is a great a pleasure
for a lover to meet his beloved after a long absence.

 


26. Husain Ibn Hamdan al-Husaini, in his book "al-Hidaya" mentions the twelfth Imam, the master of time, as the son of the eleventh Imam Hasan al-Askari.
 


27.The well known biographer, Ibn Khallakan in his book "Wafayat al-A'ayan", has given a brief account of the birth of the Imam.
 


28.Ibn al-Azraq, as quoted by Ibn Khallakan, asserts the existence of the twelfth Imam.
 

29. Ibn al-Wardi the historian, in his work asserts the birth of the son of al-Askari in 255 AH.
 


30. Sayyid Mu'min Shablanji in his work "Noor al-Absar" gives the genealogy of Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (af), the twelfth Imam.

After these and many more, those who deny his birth and his present life have no proof against those who have accepted this fact, while they still recognize the correctness of traditions about Imam al-Mahdi. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said:


"He who dies not knowing the Imam of his era, has died the death of al-Jahiliyya (Days of Ignorance; the era before Islam)."

 

 

(1) Now can you prove to me his the Son of Abdullah? and please provide an Authentic hadith for this.
(2) Please prove to be that Which Abudllah your talking about? He must be From Ahlulbayt because Imam Mahdi (s) is from Ahlulbayt (s).
(3) please stop Ignoring my posts that I made for you: 
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016357-believing-in-the-mahdi-af-is-obligatory/


 

 

Statement:

Yours canes and did not remove tyranny and instead went into occultation 

 

Canes? Do you mean Imam? Second of All Of course he did not, because he did not appear yet: 
 

In a tradition upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree, the Holy Prophet has said:

 

"Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left before Doomsday (Day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person out of my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will then fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny before then."

 

1.Sunni Reference: Sahih Tirmidhi, V2, P86, V9, P74-75 

 

2. Sanan Abi Dawud, V2, P7

3. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V1, P376 & V3, P63
4. Mustadrak al-Sahihain, by al-Hakim, V4, P557
5. Al-Majma', by Tabarani, P217
6. Tahdhib al-Thabit, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V9, P144
7. Sawaiq al-Muhraqa, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, P167
8. Fathul Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V7, P305
9. al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, P617
10. al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, V2, pp165-166
11. Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, V5, P348
12. Fathul Mughith, by al-Sakhawi, V3, P41
13. al-Hafidh Abul-Hasan Muhammad Ibn al-Husayn al-Sijistani al-Aburi
14. al-Shafi'i (d. 363/974). (who said the above hadith is related by
numerous authorities and were spread far and wide by many narrators).
and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

 

In a tradition the Holy Prophet said to the Commander of believers, Ali, that:

 

"There will be twelve Guides (Imams) after me, the first of whom is
you, O' Ali, and the last one will be the 'Support' (al-Qa'im), who
with the grace of Allah, will gain victory over the whole east and
west of the world."

 

 

The Prophet (s) said: "Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt)."

 

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4085

 

As we see Imam Mahdi is from the Ahlul Bayt of Prophet Muhammad, so he can not be Jesus (the Messiah; al-Maseeh). Mahdi and Messiah are two different personalities but they come at the same time, Mahdi as Imam and Jesus as his follower. The following tradition clearly mentions that Imam Mahdi is one of the children of the daughter of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF):

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "Al-Mahdi is one of the children of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter)."

 

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4086

 

The Prophet (s) said: "We the children of Abd Al-Mutalib are the Masters of the inhabitants of Heaven: Myself, Hamza (RA), Ali (AS),
Jafar (RA), Hasan (AS), Hussain (AS), and Al-Mahdi (AS)."

 

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4087

 

The Prophet (s) said: "The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; in that time, my Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything, and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (S) will say: Here! Take!"

 

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #5083

 

Remark: According to Shi'i sources, the Government of Peace and equality that Imam Mahdi will establish will last hundreds of years with no rival, and then the day of Judgment will be set. What is mentioned in the above tradition as 7 or 9 years is related to the length of time that Imam Mahdi will fight to conquer the world when he starts his mission.

 

The Prophet (s) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (S.W.T) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it, until a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) aught to come to them even if crowling on the ice/snow."

 

Sunni ref: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4082, also in the History Tabari

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "The world will not perish until a man among the Arabs appears whose name matches my name."

 

Sunni reference: Sahih Tirmidhi, V9, P74

 

 

The Messenger of Allah said: "Mahdi from my family will bring about a revolution and will fill the world with justice and equity before which it was filled up with injustuce and inequity."

 

Sunni references:

1. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V1, P84
2. Jami'us Sagheer, by al-Suyuti, PP 2,160
3. al-Urful Vardi, by al-Suyuti, P2
4. Kanzul Ummal, V7 P186
5. Aqd al-Durar Fi Akhbaar al-Mahdi al-Muntazir, V12, Chapter 1,
6. al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji Shafi'i, Chapter 12
7. al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh Maliki, Chapter 12
8. Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi hanafi, P380
9. Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, P266

 

Also Ahmad Ibn Hanbal narrated that:

 

The Prophet (s) said: "Allah will bring out from concealment Mahdi from my Family and Progeny before the Day of Judgement, even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice, and equity and eradicate tyranny and opression."

 

1. Sunni reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

 

Ibn Majah in his Sunan quotes Mohammad Ibn Hanafiyyah and Imam Ali saying that the Holy Prophet (s) said:

 

"Mahdi is from our Ahlul-Bayt, no doubt Allah will enforce his Amr (appearance) within a night (i.e., his coming is very unpredicted)."

 

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, P269

 

____________________

 

 

 

Statement:

How is that an insult? It is you who is using pathetic reasons trying to make your hadith hujja on the ummah.

 

One Who Accuses ones Group/Beliefs without proof is not an Insult? perhaps Revise what you said there. And how am I using Pathetic reasons? have I not Given you ahadith from your books? the Six Sahihs? your Histories? do you even have knowledge of your own books? By the Way I would like to see you Quote me saying "you Sunnis..This and that". Please go ahead. I am waiting.


statement:

How so?? Prove it from quran that it is your imams that are the correct ones because your hadiths are hujjah only on you. SO LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING. HADITH IS DEFINATELY NOT ENOUGH.

 

My Ahadith? brother I am Quoting from your books, Please check page 18 and 17 See how many I quoted before that also from the Six Sahihs and the Histories and the chains which I have proven to you that are Authentic. I advise you to revise what is your "Books" if you have no knowledge of them. Second of All I gave verses with sayings from the Prophet (s) himself. Is the prophet (s) not enough for you? third of all before you go ahead and accuse me with falsehood, can you please state each verse I quoted that was not proof of Leadership? can you please reject the proof from your books which I have provided to begin with?


Statement:

you've kinda lost me but I think I know what your trying to say. Verse 3:7 does not ACTUALLY prove any usul it only tells us the the usul's are in precise verses. Think of verse 3:7 as a guideline.
  

(1) This verse and the Other Many verses I mentioned On page 18/17 Prove the Concept of Imamah. Not just one verse.


 
Statement:

Firstly no the prophet (s) never. Secondly let's say for argument sake that the prophet (s) appointed ali a.s then you see this is where the confusing bit starts. Which sect of shia is right because they all claim to be "followers" of ali a.s

 

I hope the viewers see this.

Excuse me how many times do you have to lie? Please for the sake of the debate try to Reject the hadiths from "Your" books about Ghadeer Khum, please Reject the Hadiths about Where the prophet (s) says that Ali (s) is the Khalifa on page 18/17, Are you Serious? brother this is What I call Extreme Falsehood. I gave you proof from your books with Authentic chains, Wheres is your Objections? refutations? no wait, can you tell me what is your definition on a debate? Third of all Do your Research to see which sect is right. Fourth of all the main sect is the followers Of the Ahlulbayt (s) ( the Ithna Ashari) We follow the Twelve Imams.


statement:
Revise previous answers:

 

Which one? What statement are you referring to?


Statement:

So Ismaili are not shia nor are zaydi nor are the rest??
 

One Who does not Believe in all one of the Twelve Khalifas, Does not believe in All them. According to the school of Ahlulbayt (s).
The Ismailis Stop at the sixth Imam I believe.

 

  

Statement:

You havnt proven a single thing

 

Such as?

Statement:

Yes if course it makes a big difference. He has adamantly tried to switch fee shayin to shayin fee even after I explained to him and he till this day has not proven his claim. 

 

(1) how does it Make a big Difference?
(2) please Quote.

(salam) 

  

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Continuing My Proof from page 17/18:
 

Al-Nasa'i:

Narrated Muhammad ibn Al-Mothanna from Yahya ibn Hamad from Abi Uwana from A'mash from Habib ibn Abi Thabit from Abi Tufayl from Zayd ibn Arqam who said: While returning from Hijjatul Widaa the Messenger of Allah (saw) stopped in a place Ghadir -e- Khum and ordered the Muslims to stop there. The Messenger of Allah (saw) gave a sermon and again repeated that he is going to leave two heavy things among the Ummah. The Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Ahlulbayt, his Progeny. Then he said: 'Allah is my Master and I am the Master of every Believer.' Then he held the hand of Alee(as) and said: "Whomever I am his Master, then Alee (a.s) is his Master."

Aboo Tufayl said: "I asked Zayd. Did you hear it from the Messenger of Allah (saw)?" He said: "There was none who was around the pulpit except he saw this with his eyes and heard this with his ears."

Source: Sunan Al-Kubra Al-Nasa'i. Vol. 7, Pg. # 310. 

 

 

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Ibn Hajar:

Narrated Is'haq from Aboo Amir Al-Aq'di from Kathir ibn Zayd from Muhammad ibn Umar from his father from Alee (a.s): The Messenger of Allah (saw) stopped under a tree in Khum then took Alee's hand and said: "Are you witnessing that Allah Almighty and High is your Lord?" The people said: 'Yes!' Then he said: "Are you witnessing that Allah and His Messenger have more authority over you than yourselves and they are you master?" They said: 'Yes!' Then he said: "So to everyone whose master is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and His Messenger (saw) then Alee (a.s) the master, and I have left behind two things for you, if you hold to these two you will not go astray. They are the Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì which has two sides, one is in my hand and the other side is in your hands, and my Ahlulbayt (a.s)."

Ibn Hajar: This narration is Saheeh (Authentic).


Source: Al-Matalib Al-Aliya bi Zawa'id Al-Masanid Al-Thamaniya. Vol. 14, Pg. # 132. H. # 3943.

 

 

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Al Nisa'i:

Topic: The Prophet’s (saw) statement, “Any one I am his master, Alee will be his master.”

Muhammad ibn Al-Muthanna told us that Yahya ibn Hammad informed us that Aboo Awana reported from Sulaiman who said that, Habib ibn Aboo Thabit informed us through Aboo Tufayl and him through Zayd ibn Arqam who said, while the Messenger of Allah (saw) was returning from his Last Hajj and reached the ponds of Al-Ghadir Khum, he requested that a pulpit should be erected and we erected it for him. Then he stood saying, ‘It is as if I have been called and I have answered the caller and I have left for you behind two weighty things. The one is greater than the other, the Book of Allah and my Ahlulbayt (a.s), thus, see through them, how you represent me in both of them, for both of them will never depart from each other until they come to me at the Pool (of Kawthar)." Then he said,  'Surely Allah is my Master, and I am the Master of every Believer." Then he took the hands of Alee and said, "whomsoever I am his master, this (Alee) is his Master. O Allah, love whoever loves him and hate whosoever hates him.' Then I said to Zayd, have you heard this yourself from the mouth of the Messenger of Allah (saw)? Zayd said, there was none who was around the pulpit except he saw this with his eyes and heard this with his ears.’ 

Footnote: It is Saheeh (Authentic). Its narrators are trustworthy and they are the narrators of Shaykhayn (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

 
Source: Al-Khasa'is. Pg. # 96, H. # 79.

 

 

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Muttaqi Al-Hindi:

Narrated Alee that the Prophet (saw) was present near a tree at Khum then He went out (to the public) holding Alee's hand and he said, 'O people! Don't you witness that Allah is your Lord?' They said, 'Yes.' He (saw) said, 'Don't you witness that Allah and His Messenger (saw) has more authority over you then you do over yourselves and that Allah and His Messenger are your Masters?" They said, 'Yes.' He said, "So whomever Allah and His Messenger are his masters then this one (Alee) is his Master! And I have left among you something that if you abide by, you shall never astray. The Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, with one side of it in the hand of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and the other side in your hands, and my Ahlulbayt (a.s)."

Footnote: Reported by ibn Rahwayh, ibn Jarir, ibn Abi Assim, and Al-Mahamily in his Aamali and authenticated it.

 
Source: Kanz-ul-Ummal. Vol. 13, Pg. # 140, H # 32441.
 
 
 
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Al-Tahawi:

Habeeb ibn Abi Thabit from Abi Al-Tufayl from Zaid ibn Arqam he said: "That when the Prophet (saw) of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì returned from Hajj Al-Wida and reached to Ghadeer Khum, he ordered us to get Dawhat (material to create high platform) and so we stood up and he said: "As if I was called and I accepted that I left to you two weighty things, one of them is greater then the other. The Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and my progeny Ahlulbayt (a.s) and be aware of how to follow them after me,  for they do not separate until they return to me at the Pond of Kawthar in paradise. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is my Master and I am the master of all true believers." And so he grabbed the hands of Imam Alee (a.s) and called, "To whomever I was his master, Alee (a.s) is his master. O Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, be pleased with whoever follows him and be the enemy of whoever shows enmity towards him." So then I (narrator): "I heard it from the Prophet Muhammed (saw) and there wasn't anyone on top of the Dawhat (platform) only that he saw him 'The Prophet' and I saw him with my eyes and heard him with his ears."

Aboo Ja'far said: The chain of this narration is Saheeh (Authentic), there is no weakness in any of its narrators, the Messenger of Allah(saw) said this about Alee (a.s) when he came back from his Hajj to Madinah and not when he went out from Madinah to his Hajj.

Footnote: This Hadeeth is Saheeh (Authentic).
 
Source: Sharh Mushkil Al-Athaar. Vol. 5, Pg. # 18, H # 1765.
 
 
 
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Al-Busiri:
 
Chapter: "He whom I am His Master than Alee is His Master."
 
Narrated Alee ibn Abi Talib (a.s): 'The Prophet was at the tree in Khum then He appeared holding my (Alee) hand and said:' "Don't you witness that Allah is your Lord [Master]? They replied, 'Yes.' He said; ''Don't you witness that Allah and His Prophet are more entrusted with yourselves more than your own selves do, and that Allah and His Messenger are your Masters?" They replied, 'Yes.' He said, ''He whom Allah and His Messenger are his Masters than this one [Alee] is his Master, and I have left amongst you something that if you adhere to, then you would never go astray. The book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì like a rope having one termination in the Hand of Allah and your hands are the other termination and my household."
 
Footnote: Ishaq narrated it with a Saheeh (Authentic) chain and the hadeeth of Khum was brought up by Al-Nasa'i from the narration of Abi Tufayl narrating Zayd ibn Arqam and Alee and a group of companions, and in this version there is an addition and it is not found there [at Al-Nasa'i copy] and the origin of the hadeeth was brought up by Al-Tirmidhi also.
 
Source: Et'haf Khiratul Mohra. Vol. 9, Pg. # 279, H # 7984.
 
 
 
Hakim Al-Nishaburi:
 
Narrated Abi Thabit (r.a) the servant of Aboo Zar Ghaffari (r.a), he said; "I was with Alee (a.s) on the day of the battle of Jamal (Camel) then when I saw A'isha standing, some doubt that came into people came into me, and Allah (swt) took that away from me at noon prayer. Then I fought with the commander of the faithful (Alee) and when he (a.s.) was done (i.e the battle), I went to Madinah and went to visit Umm Salama (r.a), then I said: "By Allah! I swear that I did not come to ask for food or drink, however I am a servant (belonging) to Aboo Zar Ghaffari." She said, 'Welcome!' And I told her my story, then she said, 'Where were you when the hearts (minds) flew where they have flown i.e (when people doubted). I said, 'Where Allah (swt) took that away from me at midday." She said, 'Well done, I heard the Messenger of Allah (saw) saying, "Alee (a.s) is with The Qur'aan and The Qur'aan is with Alee (a.s) and they shall not separate until they come to me at lake-fount 'Kawthar.'

Al-Hakim: This narrations chain is Saheeh and Aboo Saeed Al-Timi his name is Aqeesa he is trustworthy and truthful but they (i.e. Bukhari and Muslim) have not narrated this hadeeth.


Al-Dhahabi: It is Saheeh (Authentic), and Aboo Sa'eed is trustworthy and truthful.
 
Source: Al-Mustadrak Alaa Al-Sahihain. Vol. 3, Pg. # 134, H. # 4628.
 
 
 
 
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Hakim al-Nishaburi:

Zayd ibn Arqam, he said: 'We went out with the Messenger of Allah (saw) till we reached the rivulet of Ghadeer Khum and He ordered [to make] a vast space so [some people] swept a place on a day that we never witnessed a hot day alike. Then he praised Allah (swt) and gave tribute to Him, and he said, "O people! It has always been that any [sent] Prophet would live for half the age of the precedent [Prophet], and I am about to be called for and I would answer, and I am leaving among you [something] that if you adhere to, you would never go astray. The Book of Allah (swt) [whom is] far from being [truly] known and has majesty." Then he stood and took the hand of Alee (a.s) with him and said, ''O people! Who has more authority over yourselves more than your own selves have [over you]?" And they said, ''Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw) know best!' Then he said, "Don't I have authority over yourselves more than you have over yourselves?'' They said, 'Yes!' He said, ''He whom I am His master than Alee is His master!''

Al-Hakim: The chain of this Hadeeth is Saheeh (Authentic) but they (i.e. Bukhari and Muslim) have not narrated it.

Al-Dhahabi: It is Saheeh (Authentic). 

Source: Al-Mustadrak Alaa Al-Sahihain. Vol. 3, Pg. # 613. H. # 6272.

 

 

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Ibn Kathir:

It is narrated through Saheeh (Authentic) narrations that the Messenger of Allah (saw) in his sermon in Ghadeer Khum said: "I am leaving among you Al-Thaqalayn (two heavy things): The Book of Allah (swt) and my Progeny (a.s), and they will not separate from each other until they reach me on the sacred lake-Fount."
 
Source: Tafsir ibn Kathir. Vol. 7, Pg. # 201.
 
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Al-Naasibee Ibn Taymiyyah in regards to this narration says:
 
وكذلك قوله : " هو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " كذب على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، بل هو في حياته وبعد مماته ولي كل مؤمن ، وكل مؤمن وليه في المحيا والممات ، فالولاية التي هي ضد العداوة لا تختص بزمان ، وأما الولاية التي هي الإمارة فيقال فيها : والي كل مؤمن بعدي ، كما يقال في صلاة الجنازة : إذا اجتمع الولي والوالي قدم الوالي في قول الأكثر ، وقيل يقدم الولي .
فقول القائل : " علي ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " كلام يمتنع نسبته إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فإنه إن أراد الموالاة لم يحتج أن يقول بعدي ، وإن أراد الإمارة كان ينبغي أن يقول : وال على كل مؤمن .
 
"Similarly as regards to the saying that, 'HE IS WALI OF EVERY MO’MIN AFTER ME' it is a lie upon Holy Prophet (saw) as he was the Wali of every momin in his life and after his death; and all momin believers are his Wali in this life or after death; and Wilayat here is the opposite of enmity which is not bound by time, and that Wilayat which is the leadership should be said as: Wali of every momin after me, as it is said in the prayer of funeral: when the Wali and the Wali gather together the Wali comes forward in the opinion of the majority of scholars. And the saying: 'ALEE IS WALI OF EVERY BELIEVER AFTER ME' is something which its attribution to the Prophet (saw) is refrained, because if he meant, "the friendship" it was not needed to say "after me," and if he meant "the leadership" it should have been said: 'Wali over every momin.'”

Source: Minhaj Al-Sunnah. Vol. 7, Pg. # 391 - 392.
 
 
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Just like many of the present day Nawaasib, their foundering father ibn Taymiyyah had indigestion accepting Imam Alee (a.s) as the master of every believer after the Prophet (saw). This Naasibee attempts to cast doubts in regards to the authenticity of those Hadeeths. He has spewed his venom against the Ahlulbayt (a.s) which is rather apparent and this, just being a prime example of that. Insha'Allah Ta'ala, we shall investigate whether the narrations in regards to, 'Alee is the Wali' are authentic or fabrications as claimed by some past and present day Nawaasib. But firstly, it is important to establish why ibn Taymiyyah rejected such narrations. The reason is clear, and that is because he insisted that the word "Wali" or "Mawla" in the Hadeeth about Imam Alee (a.s) meant "friendship." If this was the case, then the words "after me" do not make sense, as Alee (a.s) was a friend of the Muslims during the life of the Prophet (saw) and after him. And it is on this point that ibn Taymiyyah casts doubt on the authenticity of those Hadeeths in which the Prophet (saw) said: "Alee is your Wali after me."

Ibn  Sa'd:

In a discussion between a Rafidhi and supposedly Hasan ibn Al-Hasan:



فقال له الرافضي ألم يقل رسول الله عليه السلام لعلي من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه؟ فقال أما والله أن لو يعني بذلك الامرة والسلطان لأفصح لهم بذلك كما أفصح لهم بالصلاة والزكاة وصيام رمضان وحج البيت ولقال لهم أيها الناس هذا وليكم من بعدي

The Rafidhi said: 'Did not the Messenger of Allah (saw) say to Alee (a.s): "Whomever I am his Master (Mawla) then Alee is his Master (Mawla)?"' He said: 'By Allah (swt), if he meant by that the leadership, then he should have clarified that, like he clarified the issue of Salat and Zakat and fasting in Ramadan and the Hajj of the House.He should have rather said: "O people this is your Master (Wali) after me"'.

Source: Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd. Vol. 7, Pg. # 314.


With the testimony of "After me," there will remain no doubt that the Prophet (saw) meant the leadership after his death. Insha'Allah Ta'ala we will analyze some of these Hadeeth and the meaning of the word 'Wali' not being based around "friendship" as claimed by some present day Nawaasib but rather, the leadership after his (saw) death. 

The Hadeeth itself which goes through Ja'far Ibn Sulaiman.

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal:
 
حدثنا عبد الرزاق , وعفان المعنى , وهذا حديث عبد الرزاق قالا : ثنا جعفر بن سليمان ، قال : حدثني يزيد الرشك ، عن مطرف بن عبد الله ، عن عمران بن حصين ، قال : بعث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سرية وأمر عليهم علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله تعالى عنه فأحدث شيئا في سفره ، فتعاهد , قال عفان : فتعاقد أربعة من أصحاب محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يذكروا أمره لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، قال عمران : وكنا إذا قدمنا من سفر بدأنا برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فسلمنا عليه ، قال : فدخلوا عليه ، فقام رجل منهم ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، فأعرض عنه ، ثم قام الثاني ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، فأعرض عنه ، ثم قام الثالث ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، فأعرض عنه ، ثم قام الرابع , فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، قال : فأقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على الرابع , وقد تغير وجهه ، فقال : " دعوا عليا ، دعوا عليا ، دعوا عليا ، إن عليا مني وأنا منه ، وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " .
 

Abdulrazaq and Affan narrated from Ja’far ibn Sulaiman from Yazid Al-Rashk from Motref ibn Abdullah from Imran ibn Hussain who said: The Messenger of Allah (saw) had sent an army with Alee ibn Abi Taalib as their commander to Yemen and he did something in that mission. Affan said: 'Then four companions of the Messenger of Allah decided and agreed to report it to the Messenger of Allah (saw).' Imraan said: When we came back we met the Messenger of Allah (saw) and saluted him. He said: One of those companions stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee (a.s) did such and such, the Prophet (saw) turned his face from him, then the second one stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee did such and such, the Messenger of Allah turned his face from him, then the third one stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee did such and such, the Messenger of Allah (saw) turned his face from him too, then the fourth one stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee did such and such, the Messenger of Allah turned to them and said: "Leave Alee (a.s) alone he is from me and I am from him and he is Wali of every believer after me."

Footnote: Ahmad Mohammad Shaker comments on this Hadeeth and says: 'The chain of this hadeeth is Saheeh (Authentic), and Yazid Al-Rashq is ibn Abi Yazid and he is Thiqa (Trustworthy) among all scholars as said before. This hadeeth is narrated by Al-Tirmdhi too in the chapter of Fazail-e-Alee (merits of Alee) and says: It is Hasan Gharib and not known other than hadeeth of Ja’far ibn Sulaiman, and Al-Hakim says it is Saheeh (Authentic) in the conditions of Muslim and Al-Dhahabi comfirms it. 

Source: Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. Vol. 15, Pg. # 78 - 79, H # 19813.

 

 

 

 

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Imam al-Hafiz Mohammad Ibn Isa Al-Tirmidhi:

(صحيح)حدثنا قتيبة حدثنا جعفر بن سليمان الضبعي عن يزيد الرشك عن مطرف بن عبد الله عن عمران بن حصين قال بعث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم جيشا واستعمل عليهم علي بن أبي طالب فمضى في السرية فأصاب جارية فأنكروا عليه وتعاقد أربعة من أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقالوا إذا لقينا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أخبرناه بما صنع علي وكان المسلمون إذا رجعوا من السفر بدءوا برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فسلموا عليه ثم انصرفوا إلى رحالهم فلما قدمت السرية سلموا على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقام أحد الأربعة فقال يا رسول الله ألم تر إلى علي بن أبي طالب صنع كذا وكذا فأعرض عنه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم قام الثاني فقال مثل مقالته فأعرض عنه ثم قام الثالث فقال مثل مقالته فأعرض عنه ثم قام الرابع فقال مثل ما قالوا فأقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم والغضب يعرف في وجهه فقال ما تريدون من علي ما تريدون من علي ما تريدون من علي إن عليا مني وأنا 
منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي قال أبو عيسى هذا حديث حسن غريب لا نعرفه إلا من حديث جعفر بن سليمان
 
"Narrated Qutaiba narrated Ja’far ibn Sulaiman Al-Dhahabi from Yazid Al-Raashq from Motref ibn Abdullaah from Imraan Ibn Hussain who said: 'Allah’s Messenger (saw) sent an army and appointed an Amir, Alee bin Abu Taalib over them. They were a sariyah. He took a female captive from the booty. The people disliked that and four of the Sahabah resolved to inform Allah’s Messenger (saw) of what Alee ibn Abu Taalib (r.a) did on meeting him. The Muslims used to meet Allah's Messenger first thing on returning home from a journey, and then go to their homes. Thus, when this sariyah returned, they greeted the Prophet (saw). One of the four stood and said, “O Messenger of Allah, do you know that Alee ibn Abi Taalib did this-and-that." Allah's Messenger (saw) turned his face away from him. Then the second stood up and spoke as the first had, and he turned away from him. Then the third stood and spoke similar words, and he turned his face away from him. Then, the fourth stood and spoke like they had spoken. Allah’s Messenger (saw) turned to him and anger was obvious on his face. He said,"What do you want from Alee? What do you want from Alee?. Alee is from me (saw) and I from him (a.s) and he (a.s) is the Master of every believer after me (saw)."

Footnote: This Hadeeth  (narration) is Hasan Gharib, not known except through Ja’far ibn Sulaiman. Salafi Imam Al-Albani in his commentary to this Hadeeth says it is Saheeh (Authentic!)
 
Source: Sunan Al-Tirmidhi. Pg. # 842, H # 3712.
 
 
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Edited by TheIslamHistory
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This is exactly what I can't stand. I've asked you for one precise verse and you give me what?? Hadith after hadith after hadith. Why do you need hadith to prove something that should be precise??

Let me show you AGAIN.

1. Tawhid- surah 3:18

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

NOW TELL ME. DO I NEED ONE SINGLE HADITH TO PROVE TAWHID?? NO. THE HADITH WHEN IT COMES TO AN USUL AD DIN ARE JUST ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.

Allah ( swt) knew that there would be sects which would differ on many many issues and Allah ( swt) also knew that we would have different sets of hadith so Allah (swt) made sure that the usul's were in precise verses so we wouldn't need hadith to prove an usul.

Here's another example

Al-Fatah 48: 29 – MUHAMMAD IS GODS APOSTLE. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelieves but merciful to one another. You see them worshipping on their knees, seeking grace of God and His good will. Their makes are on their faces, the traces of their prostrations Thus are they described in the Torah and in the Gospel: they are like the seed which puts forth its shoot and strengthens it, so that it rises stout and firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers. Through them He seeks to enrage the unbelievers. Yet to those of them who will embrace the Faith and do good works God has promised forgiveness and a rich recomense.

NOW TELL ME DO I NEED HADITH TO PROVE THAT THE PROPHET ( pbuh) is Allah (swt) apostle?? NO.

And so on..

Now you see how precise these verses are!! If Allah (swt) was to send imams and they were "usul ad din" why isn't there a single verse as precise and direct as these for the 12 imams??

For the record the hadith of the 12 caliphs was a prophecy and not a command. If it was a command and especially if it was an usul ad din it definately would have been mentioned in quran in a precise manner.

Also so what if some scholars thought that imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s?? You have scholars who doubt the burning of the door?? Does that make it hujjah on you?? NO

The truth is that we have hadith where we are told that the father of imam mahdi a.s will be called abdullah. Whereas your imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s

I've already told you in our hadith we are told imam mahdi a.s will appear and remove tyranny whereas your imam mahdi a.s has already been and gone but never took no tyranny away. You say he will come back and rule for hundreds of years whereas we say he will rule for seven or nine years. Also we are not told in our hadith that imam mahdi a.s would come then go into occultation then re appear.

So you see how our imam mahdi are not the same person.

Edited by Just the truth
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Asalam alaikum

"I thought I will butt in cos this is going on and in and on just how ameen likes it lol

And the cheesy lil pats on each other's backs even if both you cannot even find a single verse in Quran you may as we'll smack yourselfs cos you still haven't come near to the answer,talk about self loathing lol

From a neautral stand this is how the people reading it see it

The question raised by br justthetruth IS THEIR PRECISE VERSE ON IMMAMATE?

It is so simple and basic look at the question he is not asking for a Hadith or an explanation,NO, just a simple statement from the supreme almighty subhanawatallah

And all the poor guy is getting is............hadiths and explanations??

So originally the question still stands!!

Is their a PRECISE VERSE in Quran??

For over 1400 hundered years have passed.....and.....still no verse?!?!?

To be honest as a neutral observer forget ameen he is like a broken record going round and round with no serious point but gets trapped himself then he cannot explain .........like fee shayin.

As for br islamhistory ....well .....I must admit your answer to that question.......HAS STILL NOT BEEN ANSWERED!!!

All you are doing is posting IRRELEVANT hadiths and explanations, that is not the question!!

The question ISNT 'is there any hadiths or explanation of immamate'

Since the questioned was asked.......am sorry but NO ONE has answered br justthetruth

All that is happening now is brothers ameen and islamhistory are just coming up with qiyas and irrelevant hadiths and self explanations MAYBE trying to avoid the QUESTION?

The answer to the question is a simple YES OR NO

If it would have been NO.........then we could move on but if you say YES like you are doing then........PROVE IT FROM QURAN .......A PRECISE VERSE!!!!

YOU SAY IT........SO PROVE IT!!!

What kind of shia site is this??

Cannot even prove immamate from Quran

Sorry for the interruption but I had to speak my mind

A NEAUTRAL MIND!!!!

Carry on brothers.........

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I dont understand exactly what it is you're trying to say?? Please explain

 

You very well know what I'm trying to say. It would be nice if you gave me a detailed response, on any of my posts.

Brother just the truth, you have been given plenty of precise verses but you are not responding to any of them. The exact words and letters that, you are looking for, do not exist.

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Statement:

This is exactly what I can't stand. I've asked you for one precise verse and you give me what?? Hadith after hadith after hadith. Why do you need hadith to prove something that should be precise??

 

(1) you claim that When we give you a Verse it is Unspecific.
(2) This is the Excuse you use to Not accept The Imamah of Imam Ali (as).
(3) You Prefer to Exclude even your own books for the sake of your beliefs.

(4) please Define for us what us Precise and Unspecific to you? 
(5) Your Asking for the Exact names from the Quran, because you deny Authentic Traditions.
(6) I will ask you once more, Why was the Instructions on how to preform Salat not mentioned in the Quran?
(7) The Successors of Prophet Jesus (s), Solomon (s), Moses (s) Where not mentioned by name, but my other terms.
(8) Imam Ali (s) Was mentioned in 5:55, And he is to be obeyed. So May I ask you, if you lived in the time of prophet Jesus (s), and in the book of Allah the only term you got for his Successors Was "AlWareen", Will you deny the Successors? because they Were not mentioned by name?
(9) If you lived for example in the time of prophet Jesus (s), Moses (s), Ibrahim, (s), and you only had What a book they left for example but the Successors Were not mentioned by name, bu you were ordered to by them to obey the Successor after them Will you Still deny?

(10) We all know that the prophet Luqman (s) Is mentioned in the Quran, but in the Quran there is no verse where it says he is a prophet (s), So Do you deny prophet Luqman (s)? 



Statement:
For the record the hadith of the 12 caliphs was a prophecy and not a command. If it was a command and especially if it was an usul ad din it definately would have been mentioned in quran in a precise manner.

 

According to the Narrations I mentioned Earlier from the very Prophet (pbuh) they are appointed by Allah, and if they are appointed by Allah, then they are to be Obeyed. Can you please tell me how this can be a mere Prophecy? In Also Rejecting the Previous Sayings of the prophet (s) if you are able to.

 

Statement:

Also so what if some scholars thought that imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s?? You have scholars who doubt the burning of the door?? Does that make it hujjah on you?? NO

 

(1) The School Of Ahlulbayt (s) has made clear that the Burning of the Door has happened.
(2) If any one Denies it from our Side, They in fact have no proof.
(3) does that make a Difference? In Both Sects Shia & Sunni, you will always have groups Who oppose there Own Mathab.
(4) Do you even know that the Four school of the Sunnah oppose Each other or not? 
​(5) I gave you your own Scholars opinions and "Narrations" Which Prove he is the Son of Imam Hassan Al Askari (s). I also gave Narrations That he is from Ahlulbayt (s). So Please stop Lying.

  

Statement:
The truth is that we have hadith where we are told that the father of imam mahdi a.s will be called abdullah. Whereas your imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s

 

(1) Since we all know that the Imam Mahdi (s) is from AHlulbayt (s), then Kindly Prove to us, that his so called Abdullah is from Ahlulbayt (s).
(2) Please Kindly Prove to us that Imam Mahdi (s) Will be born. And Since I proved to you he Will Appear, please Kindly Object to the Narrations I mentioned from the Six Sahihs of Ahlul-Sunnah.
(3) And Please Prove to us that he is the Son of Abduallah. And Who is this So called Abduallah?

 

 

 

Statement:

I've already told you in our hadith we are told imam mahdi a.s will appear and remove tyranny whereas your imam mahdi a.s has already been and gone but never took no tyranny away. You say he will come back and rule for hundreds of years whereas we say he will rule for seven or nine years. Also we are not told in our hadith that imam mahdi a.s would come then go into occultation then re appear.

 

(1) The Imam Cannot be Gone, As proved from the narrations he is in Occultation.
(2) He Will Appear and not "be Born" as Proven Earlier one.
(3) Prove to us that he Will only Rule for 7 or nine years. 
(4) you must be blind, Please Check Shaih Al Timrdi and the Rest of your Sahihs I mentioned above that "He Will Appear"
(5) We Take Ahadith From Ahlulbayt (s), From the Imams them Selves and the Companions Who Are True to them. Can you please mention One of your Companions Who Obeyed the Khalifas of the Throne and at the same time Obeyed Ahlulbayt (s)?


  

Statement:

So you see how our imam mahdi are not the same person. 

 

​Your Definition of Imam Mahdi Does not Exist in the first place.
You can perhaps Provide Proof of the Characteristics you mentioned about him and Object to mine to prove your Point.

(wasalam)
   

    
 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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Brother you are again wrong:
 
 
So when you have finished your task, then nominate (fansab).  (94:7)
 
Furthermore, there is, according to the Qur’an, always an Imam and a guide, and as such there must have been another Imam after Imam al-‘Askari (as). To believe otherwise is to contradict the Holy Qur’an and to reject Islam, as these enemies of the Ahl al-Bayt (as) have done.
 
As far as there being Twelve Imams, this is firmly established by the mutawatir i.e. hadeeth is one that has been narrated so many times, by so many different people, that it would be impossible to have been made up and no doubt can be cast upon its authenticity. We read in Bukhari and Muslim:
 
Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet (s) saying:
There will be Twelve Commanders.” He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, “All of them will be from Quraysh.” 
 
1. Sahih al-Bukhari (English ver.) Hadith: 9.329. Sahih al-Bukhari, (Arabic), 4:165, Kitabul Ahkam. This hadeeth is narrated in many other sources as well, including:
2. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Vol 5 p97 and 101
3. Umadathl Qari- page 271
4. Tafseer ibn Kathir Vol7 page 110
5. Jami Usul Volume 4 page 440 (Egypt)
6. Al Bidaya al Nihaya Volume 2 page 248
7. Sawaiqh al Muhriqa page 187
8. Hilayathul Awliya Volume 333
9. Tarkeeh Kabeer Volume 1 446

 
The Prophet (s) said: “The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.” 
 
Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010, Tradition #4483; Sahih Muslim (Arabic), Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Saudi Arabian Edition, v3, p1453, Tradition #10
 
 
 
Note: So here we have proof that the last Imams the Imam Al Mahdi (a.f) Who is the Twelve'th Imam is Living in Occulation, and we have proved Earlier on this is Possible because of two three Incidence, 1) Prophet Idris's Occultation, 2) Prophet Khudir's Occultation, 3) Jesus (as).
 
Al-Juwayni, in his Farai’d as-Simtayn, reports these hadeeths:
 
The Prophet (s) said: “I and Ali and Hasan and Husayn and nine of the descendants of Husayn are the purified ones and the inerrant.”
 
The Prophet (s) said: “Certainly my Caliphs and my legatees and the Proofs of Allah upon his creatures after me are twelve. The first of them is my brother and the last of them is my (grand) son.” He was asked: “O Messenger of Allah, who is your brother?” He said, “Ali ibn Abi Talib” Then they asked, “And who is your son?” The Holy Prophet (s) replied, “Al Mahdi, the one who will fill the earth with justice and equity like it would be brimming with injustice and tyranny. And by the One Who has raised me as a warner and a give of good tidings, even if a day remains for the life of this world, the Almighty Allah will prolong this day to an extent till he sends my son Mahdi, then he will make Ruhullah ‘Isa ibn Maryam  to descend and pray behind him (Mahdi). And the earth will be illuminated by his radiance. And his power will reach to the east and the west.”
 
The Prophet (s) said: “I am the chief of the Prophets and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al Mahdi.”
 
Fara’id al-Simtayn, Beirut 1978, p. 160.
Based on the Qur’an and these narrations, the import of which is mutawatir and cannot be doubted, we are now faced with the following results:

  • There must always be an Imam; this is established by the Holy Qur’an without any doubt.
  • That the Imam must be appointed by God. Therefore, the Imam of the time cannot be a corrupt Sultan appointed by his father, or a rebel who has taken power through force, nor somebody elected by the Muslims.
  • That there will only be Twelve such Imams after the Prophet (s).

The narrations that insist upon the existence of Twelve Successors, and only Twelve, remove any doubts one might have that the Imam of the time might be the Imam of one of the other Shi’a sects, such as the Ismailis. The Ismaili lines of Imamate do not accord with the number twelve, and in fact do not even accord with their own sacred number of seven. The Ismailis believed that there would be seven Imams after the Prophet (s), yet all of the Ismaili lines have had many more Imams than seven. As such, there should not be any question about whether or not the current Imam (whom the Qur’an states must exist) is one of the Ismaili Imams. As for the Zaidis, they do not have an Imamate currently (being abolished in the sixties), and do not believe that Imamate is an office of necessity or appointed by God. As such, even if they had an Imam now, he would not be the type of witness, guide, and Imam foretold by the Holy Qur’an.
 
This leaves us only with the Twelver Shi’as. the people who is seeking to disprove the coming of Imam al-Mahdi (as) argues that there were many Shi’a sects at the time of Imam al-‘Askari (as)’s death, something which is true. The question which he seeks to pose is why modern-day Shi’as believe in the idea of a Hidden Imam, and did not follow one of these other Shi’a sects that emerged after Imam al-‘Askari (as)’s death?
 
The reasons for this our obvious: that these other sects contradict the Qur’an and the teachings of the Prophet. These other sects died out because they could not prove their claims based upon Qur’an and hadeeths: only those who believed in a living but occulted Twelfth Imam were able to do so. We see that some believed Imam al-‘Askari (as) left no child; this would mean that Imamate ceased with him. As such, such people are not Twelver Shi’as at all but are Eleveners, something for which there is no evidence for and contradicts what the Prophet (s) taught. Others believed that the Imamate went to the brother of Imam al-‘Askari (as), but as he never did anything to prove that he was endowed with the knowledge or wisdom of an Imam, and then later died for all to see, it is impossible to believe that he was an Imam. Others believed that Imam al-Mahdi (as) died during ghaybah, but then this would mean no Imam which, in accordance with the Qur’an, is an impossibility. Others said he had yet to be born but would come in the future, which also contradicts with the Qur’anic evidences discussed above. Finally, we are left with only one possibility: that there is an Imam living amongst us, as the Qur’an has said, and that since we cannot see Him he must be hidden and not visible to physical senses.

There are numerous hadeeths in this regard, which can be found in your own authoritative Sunni works. Abul Juldh in Fath al-Bari narrates the hadeeth that:
 
 
This Ummat will not end and the Day of Judgment will not come, till the coming of 12 Khalifas, they will be guided, on the Deen of Truth. 
Fathul Bari Volume 13 page 79

 
Allamah Badradaen Aini in Ummdthul Qari Sharah Sahih Bukhari narrates:
 
‘This Ummah will not end until the passing of the twelve, they will all be true guides from the Ahlulbayt.’ 
Ummdthul Qari Volume 2 page 282 and Volume 9 page 8
 
We read in Ya Nabi al-Muwaddat:
The Prophet of Allah said that I am the Chief of Prophets, Ali is the Chief of Wasi, after me there will be 12 Wasi, 1st of them is Ali (as), last of them is Mahdi.
Faslul khitab page 423
Ya Nabi al Muwaddat page 105 (Beirut)
 
We read in Fasl al-Khitab:
The Prophet of Allah said, that “after me will be 12 Khalifas O Ali you are the first and Mahdi will be the last, East and West will be conquered at his hands.”  Fasl al-khitab page 463 Tashkent Publishers
 
 
On the very page we also read:
 
Imam Hussain (as) said ” The 12 Imams are from us, 1st one is Ali, and the last is Mahdi (as), who is the living truth, Allah will awaken the earth through him, his religion will rule over all other religions.”
 
Sunni narrations prove that Imam Mahdi (as) will be from the Ahlulbayt (as):
 
The Prophet said, “Mahdi is from us Ahlulbayt.” 
 
1. Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar page 21 Beirut Edition.
2. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, volume 1, page 84
3. Al-Mustadrak, voume 4, page 557 (al-Hakem said Sahih according to Muslim’s condition)
4. Al-Musanaf, by ibn Abi Shayba, volume 8, page 678
5. Al-Albani decalred it ‘Sahih’ in Silsila Sahiha, volume 5, page 486

 
Ali (as) said, “When a voice will come from skies that Truth is in the Family of Muhammad Imam Madhi will come” 

1. Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar page 106
2. Kanz al-umal, volume 14, page 588
3. Al-Urf al-Wardi, page 93
4. Al-Fetan, by al-Maroozi, page 334


Okay Now Dear brother Can you prove to me that this So called Abullah is from the Linage of Fatima (s)? Since the Imam al Mahdi (a.f) is from the Linage of Fatima (s):
 

The Prophet of Allah said, “O Fatima, Mahdi will be from your Lineage”

1. Dhukhair ul Uqba, page 136
2. Yanabi al-Muwada, volume 2, page 210

 

We have the following hadeeth, which is reported in at least seven Sunni hadeeth works, including the Sunan Abu Dawud which is considered to be one of the six authentic books, which include Bukhari and Muslim:

 

“Imam Mahdi is from my descendents from Fatima’s lineage”

1. Kanzul Ummal volume 14 page 264
2. Mishkat al Masabeeh page 470
3. Sawaiqh al Muhriqa page 237
4. Seerath Jaleeya Volume 1 page 193
5. Jami ul Sagheer Volume 2 page 579
6. Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271
7. Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086 (Al-Albani declared it Sahih. In Sahih ibn Majah, volume 2, page 389)
8. Al-Kamil by ibn Uday, volume 3, page 429

9. Al-Tarikh al-Kabir, by Bukhari, volume 8, page 407 

 

 

Hudhaifa [r] narrates: the Prophet of Allah said, if there is only one day left on this Earth, Allah will extend it so that a man will rise from my Ahle bayt who will be guided, who’s name will be the same as mine”. Salman Farsi asked “Prophet of Allah, from which son’s family will he be?” He (s) placed his hand on Hussain and said: “He will be the son of Hussain.” 

1. Aqd ul Durur fi Zuhoor al Muntazir, page 24
2. Dhukhair al Uqba, page 136-137
3. Al-Arbaeen Hadithan fi Al-Mahdi by Abu Naeem Asfahani, 6th hadith.
4. Yanabi almuwada, volume 2, page 211
5. Al-Bayan fi Akhbar al-Zaman, by Kenji Shafeei, page 90 (al-Kenji said: ‘hasan’)
6. Faraed al-Semtain, by Hamwini 
7. Al-Urf al-wardi fi Akhbar al-Mahdi, by Seuty, page 74

 

The Prophet of Allah said, “Mahdi will be from me and from the family of Husayn bin Ali”

-Manaqib by Ibne Maghazli, page 215

 

There are some ‘Sunni’ traditions which shows that Imam Mahdi (s) will be from Imam Hasan’s (s) progeny which is obviously fasle.

 

 

Abdullah ibne Umar narrates that Rasulullah (s) said, “When Mahdi comes a cloud shall protect him and a voice will declare this is Mahdi Khalifathullah”. 

 

1. Tareekh ul Khamees Volume 2 page 288 (Beirut)
2. al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, page 280 (Iraqi edition
3. Al bayaan fi Akbar Saibul Zamaan page 96 (Iraqi edition)


So for the last time. The Son of Imam Hassan Al Askari is the Imam Mahdi (a.f).

 

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Brother the islam history, all of your posts are magnificent because the information, you have put forward, is authentic and reliable and the quantity, of that information, is in tons. What brother, just the truth, wants is exact words and letters, you have in the Hadiths, from the Quran.

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Brother the islam history, all of your posts are magnificent because the information, you have put forward, is authentic and reliable and the quantity, of that information, is in tons. What brother, just the truth, wants is exact words and letters, you have in the Hadiths, from the Quran.

 

Thank you brother Ameen, I have also Been Following your Responses More than Often. Now if he Demands exact words and letters from the Quran, He then Must Exclude all of the Scholars of Ahlul-Sunnah. Why? because If you know in the Ahlul-Sunnah it is Impossible to to understand the Quran without Hadith, And if you remember a while back Brother @Rasul put forward some Excellent proof as we read:

py3m.png

So If Our brother Justthetruth does not want hadiths and Explanation from the companions which in his Sunnah School of thought are the best of people after the prophet (pbuh), then he must go against his own Sunnah, and this Causes him to be Technically Excluded from his own sect, rather he is now a mere branch of it. Now you have seen I have put forward proof even back then in "Appointing a Successor" from my Our resources, which I have spent much time researching, but all in all I did not lose, for I myself have gain knowledge along the way. So now that our brother demands only from the Quran, that means he go against the following verses in the Quran, Infact he would therefore be having doubt in the words of Allah. Why? Well lets examine the verses:

Verse 3,4, of Surat An-Najm:

 

 

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ
 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
 
 
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ
It is not but a revelation revealed,
 
 
So My Dear brother the prophet (s) Does not Do what he Likes to do, but Everything he Says to us is a Revelation from Allah, So how can one even dare to Exclude the Revelation of Allah? how can one dare to even Question it? If it is proved to be Authentic and match's the Quran? how? How can one dare to even think of doing so? Therefore Our Brother JustTheTruth in this verse he is going against, as one he is Refuting my Proof without even one small bit of evidence. He Also Claims that when the prophet (s) says There Will be 12 Khalifas, he claims it just a mere prophecy? I mean really? do you think Allah is just reveling for no reason (Na'aozobillah) ? Look at the verse my dear brother Justthetruth The prophet (s) does not say anything from his own, he and what he says is a Revelation to us. And if Allah is Reveling to us, do you think its a mere prophecy? or in fact a Command which we must obey? lets take at this verse:
 
Surat Al Hashr, verse 7:

 

مَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَىٰ فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ كَيْ لَا يَكُونَ دُولَةً بَيْنَ الْأَغْنِيَاءِ مِنكُمْ ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ
 
 

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

 

 

So what the prophet (pbuh) says We must take, and lets not forget he the prophet (s) says Hold on yo the book of Allah And his Ahlulbayt (s) and if we were to hold on to them, this means "OBEY!" and not simply "LOVE" as the Sunnah School Thinks so. How? how can one think of such? When they are being equaled to the Quran, You cannot be Equaled to the Quran and one part of it you obey and the other part you love. You must Obey both of them. Ameen My brother me and you have proven things from his own books, the Six sahihs, Bukhari and Muslim, and look till today he Ignores it. Why? How can one go against his own school of Thought? What is the debate about in the first place? is it not between the two main school of thoughts? So Its clear if the prophet said Twelve Khalifas until to the day of Judgement. Then We must obey them. Full stop.

By the Way Brother Ameen, I thank you for your support. May Allah Reward you for your Efforts. Inshallla.

(wasalam)  

  

 

 

 

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Brother ISLAMIC history you are deliberately dodging my main question.

I asked you for ONE precise verse where Allah (swt) says he will send imams for this ummah and you are giving me hadith which do not even help you.

Il ask the question AGAIN.

Do you have a precise verse yes or no.

You have me ulil amr verse but tell me, honestly how on earth is this a precise verse??

Let's analyse it.

1. We are not told precisely who the ulil amr are like we are told precisely who the first authority Allah (swt) and second authority messenger ( pbuh) is.

2. When it comes to "referring" we are not told to refer to ulil amr since shia believe he or them have the same authority as Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh).

So again.... HOW IS THIS A PRECISE VERSE PROVING IMAMAT??

Also there are hadith where we are told that the father of imam mahdi a.s will be called abdullah and your imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s. So what if it says "appear" what's the big deal in that.

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Statement:

Brother ISLAMIC history you are deliberately dodging my main question.

 

From the Questions And Evidence I put Above you, you have not answered one. Why So? If You are seeking a Conclusion Why Ignore what I have to say and later on claim that I am the one Evading the Question? its not very Polite for you to accuse someone Who is Giving you Direct Answers, While your the one in this Dialogue Evading it.

 

Statement:

I asked you for ONE precise verse where Allah says he will send imams for this ummah and you are giving me hadith which do not even help you.

 

I gave verses On page 18, and yet you did not Object to a single one? I am Waiting Brother? Do you want me to Quote my self again?

Statement:
Do you have a precise verse yes or no.

 

Yes On page 18 as we mentioned Earlier one.  3/2nd Last Posts Page #18

 

 

Statement:
You have me ulil amr verse but tell me, honestly how on earth is this a precise verse??

 

(1) It mentions a Third Line of Authority.
(2) it came down in time of the prophet (pbuh), Therefore Allah Appoints Uli al Amr, as he (Allah) is the one Who is Ordering us to obey them.


 

Statement:
We are not told precisely who the ulil amr are like we are told precisely who the first authority Allah and second authority messenger (s) is.

 

I quote From page 18 Which you Purposely Invaded by Answers:
 

 

 

First of Allah Did not Mention the names of the Previous Imams of the Ummah, for example for have the Successor of prophet Solomon Who he was not mentioned by name, but was refer to the One "Who has the knowledge of the book", or for example the "Haware'en" Of prophet Jesus (s) Allah did not mention them by name, Also the 12 Khalifas of Israel Who Allah Appointed them, He did not mention them by name, So we Return to verse 5:55 Where All Literate Muslims know that Only Imam Ali (s) gave his Ring While Ruku, and in the verse We are ordered to obey him. 

 

Please Answer me. Does verse 5;55 tell you not to Obey Imam Ali (s) or not?
 

 

statement:
When it comes to "referring" we are not told to refer to ulil amr since shia believe he or them have the same authority as Allah and messenger (s)

 

 

(1) Please look on the above post on this page; post # 474
(2) Please look on the Previous page 18; post # 449

(3) please look on the previous page 18: post 3 430

I quote once more from the Previous page:

 

 

 

I have explained this before. In My Stance, I do not claim that we cant refer to the Quran ( totally ) we can but we need  the prophet which we cannot refer in total form, Nor the ( Imams Totally) while you on the other hand claim that we should, so that is why I countered by imposing the same Question on you. Now Even if we have so much Ahadith about Certain verses and such, It is well known that we take most of our Ahadith from Ahlulbayt and you from the Companions, Now there is a major Difference. The prophet  (pbuh) has left his Ahlulbayt  (as) and the Quran as the two main Things which we should hold on to. Meaning that if we want to refer to that the prophet  (pbuh) said we must refer to Ahlulbayt (s) because they have the knowledge of the prophet (s), and this is clear then the prophet (s) said: " I am the City of knowledge and Ali (s) is its gate" can you not understand this? Ayone would understand that if we want the knowledge/or refer to the prophet through knowledge we must go through its Door, who we all know is Imam Ali (s), and Look at how many Haidths the prophet (s) said on Ali (s).

(4) You Failed to Answer my Question About Shura.

 

 

Statement:
HOW IS THIS A PRECISE VERSE PROVING IMAMAT??

 

Very Precise. How? As I said before if such a verse came to the prophet (pbuh) in his time, Therefore Allah is the one Who appoints Uli al Amr and we made a Clear evidence on this issue. From the Ahadith of Sahih Muslim & bukhari and the other Sahihs Mentioned. Would you like to Give me a verse where the prophet Luqman is Mentioned as a prophet (s)? yet we both Shia & Sunni Knowledge that he is a prophet (as).

I quote My again please Answer me without evading my Questions:

 

 

 

(1) you claim that When we give you a Verse it is Unspecific.

(2) This is the Excuse you use to Not accept The Imamah of Imam Ali  (as).
(3) You Prefer to Exclude even your own books for the sake of your beliefs.

(4) please Define for us what us Precise and Unspecific to you? 
(5) Your Asking for the Exact names from the Quran, because you deny Authentic Traditions.
(6) I will ask you once more, Why was the Instructions on how to preform Salat not mentioned in the Quran?
(7) The Successors of Prophet Jesus (s), Solomon (s), Moses (s) Where not mentioned by name, but my other terms.
(8) Imam Ali (s) Was mentioned in 5:55, And he is to be obeyed. So May I ask you, if you lived in the time of prophet Jesus (s), and in the book of Allah the only term you got for his Successors Was "AlWareen", Will you deny the Successors? because they Were not mentioned by name?
(9) If you lived for example in the time of prophet Jesus (s), Moses (s), Ibrahim, (s), and you only had What a book they left for example but the Successors Were not mentioned by name, bu you were ordered to by them to obey the Successor after them Will you Still deny?

(10) We all know that the prophet Luqman (s) Is mentioned in the Quran, but in the Quran there is no verse where it says he is a prophet (s), So Do you deny prophet Luqman (s)? 

statement: 
Also there are hadith where we are told that the father of imam mahdi a.s will be called abdullah and your imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s. So what if it says "appear" what's the big deal in that. 

 

From the proof I put Forward above we know:

(1) the Imam Mahdi (s) is from Imam Hassan Al Askari (as).
(2) he is alive and living.
(3) he is From Ahlulbayt (as)
(4) he is from the linage of Fatima (as).

If you do not accept this does this mean you reject Bukhari and Muslim?
Do you Reject the Six Sahihs? Further more do you Reject Authors of the Six Sahihs?

You have not Answered the following:

(1) please give me a Narration that Imam Mahdi (a.f) is the son of Abdullah. Please make it an Authentic one. 

(2) Please give me a Narration Where this So called Abdullah is from the Linage of Fatima (as).
(3) Please give me a Narration that the Imam Mahdi (s) Will be Born. Thank you.

(4) if you approve this, then What are we to say to your Six Sahihs.
  

(wasalam)

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Brother I'm going to go through two verses for you verse 4:59 and 5:55 and hopefully all your questions will be answered inshallah.

Verse 4:59

I've told you why verse 4:59 is unspecific.

Number 1. We are not told who the ulil amr are. You keep saying go to hadith but how this helps you?? god knows.

Ok let's say we go to hadith then what?? SUNNIS have hadith saying this verse was sent for commanders and if you look at the verse all it says is "those with authority". Which could further be defined as leaders teachers parents etc etc.

I'm sure other sects have hadith where they say there leaders are the ulil amr because not once does it say that the ulil amr are appointed.

2. We go to the second part of the verse and we see it says "refer to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh). Now ask yourself with an open heart that if this verse was sent for appointed imams why wouldn't Allah (swt) say also refer to ulil amr?? Don't forget the whole point your imams were appointed (according to shia) was so we could "refer" to them.

So you can't use this as your precise verse.

Now let's move to surah 5:55

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

No doubt this verse was sent for ali a.s, but let's take a closer look at the verse.

The word used is wali and Allah (swt) says your wali is none but Allah messenger and ali.

Now it's pretty obvious that the relationship that we share here with ali a.s is the same relationship we share with Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh). For this reason this verse cannot be talking about leadership because Allah (swt) is not a leader astagfirullah, he is The Lord of the universe.

Also in this verse if Allah (swt) was going to talk about Imamate which is an usul and Allah (swt) says that foundations/usul's are in precise verses so tell me why would Allah (swt) use a word with multiple meanings and secondly why would Allah (swt) not talk about all 12 imams if this verse is supposed to be precise.

You could argue that Allah ( swt) is our guardian which is true and as it says in surah 2:257. Then tell me in surah 2:257 is Allah (swt) telling us he is our leader or our guardian.

A guardian does not necessarily have to be a leader for obvious reasons as I have told you above.

So for argument sake I agree that you can use the word guardian in surah 5:55 but this still does not mean the concept of Imamate.

I've said from day 1 that I firmly believe that ali a.s was the first spiritual guide after prophet (pbuh) (peer) and the job of a peer is to help guard the iman of his followers.

Also tell me if Allah (swt) was specifically talking about leadership in verse 5:55 then why would he (swt) include himself?? Does that even make sense

Also it does NOT say obey

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Statement:

I've told you why verse 4:59 is unspecific. 

 

And you never proved it.
 

Statement:
Number 1. We are not told who the ulil amr are. You keep saying go to hadith but how this helps you?? god knows.

 

(1) I did not tell you "go" to the Hadith. Please Stop Twisting Words.
(2) I gave you an Explanation for the verse and then I Proved to you how it Relates to the Sayings of The prophet (s) which As I in addition Showed you that the prophet Does not Speak or Reveal only by the Orders of Allah.

 

 

Statement:
Ok let's say we go to hadith then what?? SUNNIS have hadith saying this verse was sent for commanders and if you look at the verse all it says is "those with authority". Which could further be defined as leaders teachers parents etc etc.

 

(1) I rejected this Ideology previously Three pages ago on this Thread and you seem to exclude y Answer and move on as if I have said nothing.

(2) you must be Narrow minded; In the time of the prophet (s) as the verse Came down, do you think the verse cam down on teachers? on Parents? on Normal Commanders? In the verse 5;55 We are told to obey Imam Ali (s), and it is proven on the day of Ghadeer Khum the prophet (s) made him the Successor after him. He has Authority over us. You Simply like to Make assumptions for everything. Third of All don't say Teachers, Parents, and So on, in Tafsir ibn Kathir and other Sunni Tafsirs have referred to this verse for the Commander of Syriaan. Which previously I proved it to be wrong as it did not match the verse Logically. And you Failed to Reply to the points I made about the Bukhari hadith you put Forward.      

 

Statement:
I'm sure other sects have hadith where they say there leaders are the ulil amr because not once does it say that the ulil amr are appointed.

 

Who are they? And what has this Got to do anything with the debate? please Stop Making up baseless Excuses.

Statement:
We go to the second part of the verse and we see it says "refer to Allah and his messenger (s). Now ask yourself with an open heart that if this verse was sent for appointed imams why wouldn't Allah  say also refer to ulil amr?? Don't forget the whole point your imams were appointed (according to shia) was so we could "refer" to them. 

 

You really are Narrow Mined my dear brother. I will tell you to ask "your" self how can we refer to the prophet? Did he not say I have left in My Ummah two Weighy things Which if you hold on to them you "Will Never" go astray? The book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt? did he not say that? and if we want to Refer to the book of Allah Do we not neeed a prophet Interpretation from an Authentic hadiths? And Who knows The Quran better than Ahlulbayt (s)? your making up a baseless Excuses here; The Ahlulbayt (s) have knowledge of the prophet (s) and the Book Of Allah. And When the verse says "if you Differ" in "anything" that does not mean the Uli al amr are of bad. How can this be so? When in a another verse Allah is telling them the people to Refer To the prophet (s) and Uli al amr, and Allah says it Would be better? Where is your logic?   

 

Statement:
So you can't use this as your precise verse.

 

Yes I can with the Evidence proven from the previous page. And this is not the only verse as I have mentioned earlier.




Statement:
The word used is wali and Allah  says your wali is none but Allah messenger and ali. Now it's pretty obvious that the relationship that we share here with ali a.s is the same relationship we share with Allah and his messenger (S). For this reason this verse cannot be talking about leadership because Allah  is not a leader astagfirullah, he is The Lord of the universe.

 

(1) Istghfarllah? What are you talking about? How did you come to the Conclusion that the term Wali in the verse is talking about a Relationship matter? Are you blind? your Wali is Allah, the Prophet (s) and Ali (s), this is a revelation to the people. Third of All the Guide is Allah, the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (s). would you like you tell if the verse is not talking about Leadership then What is it Talking about? no please go ahead Educate us. Third of All its not Ally, its Master. Can you please tell me how you came up with Ally? or how they came up with it? So Allah is just our Allay? the prophet is just our Ally ? By meaning this would be invalid. to the Hadith that is mentioned: for the sake of the readers and this Arguement I shall produce some Sunni references, and traditions in this respect through other sources. Many Sunni commentators of the Quran confirm the fact that the above verse descended on the honor of Imam Ali (as) and many Sunni scholars have also mentioned the unanimity or consensus of opinion in their books. Here are some references in this

regard:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the
authority of Ibn Abbas
(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991
(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

.

There is also a tradition related by Ibn Salam whose chain of sources rises up to the Prophet (pbuh) himself. Please refer to the Sahih of Nisa'i or the commentary of Sura Ma'idah in Jam'a Bayn al-Sihah al-Sittah. In Ghayah al-Maram, p18, Sayyid al-Bahrayni forwards twenty four (24) traditions from sources other than the Ahlul-Bayt, all supporting the above fact. For the sake of brevity, I am going to confine my self to a tradition occuring in the commentary of the Quran by Abi Is'haq Ahmad Ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Nisaboori al-Tha'labi. A few comments on the respected personality: He died in 337 AH and Ibn Khallikan gives an account of his death saying: "He was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsiral-Kabir is superior to all other interpretations." When he reached this verse he recorded this in his Tafsir al-Kabir on the authority of Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, who said:

Both of my ears may turn deaf and both of my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, saying, "Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. he who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken." One day I said my prayers in the company of the Prophet. A beggar came to the mosque and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of kneeling in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who appraoched him and removed the ring from his finger. Thereupon the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, implored Allah the Mighty and Glorious, saying: "O Allah! My brother Moses begged you saying, 'My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from my kinsmen, Haroon, my brother, as my vizier, and strenghthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us.' And You inspired him: 'O Musa! All your requests have been granted.' O Allah! I am your slave and your prophet. Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him."


Abu Dhar, then, proceeded

By Allah, the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Gabriel descended to him with this Verse

"Certainly Allah is Your Master, and His Prophet and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And whoever
takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious."


Therefore the Term Wali must be Master. 

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi under the commentary of
verses 5:55-56 of Quran.

 

Second of All all of your Sunni Translators had Different Terming's for this issue Why so? they Never seem to use "master"
 

 

 
Sahih International
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].
Muhsin Khan
Verily, your Wali (Protector or Helper) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).
Pickthall
Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
Yusuf Ali
Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
Shakir
Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
Dr. Ghali

Surely your Ever-Patronizing Patron is only Allah; and His Messenger, and the ones who have believed-who keep up the prayer and bring the Zakat, (i.e., pay the poor-dues) and are bowing down (to Allah) - (are also your patrons). 

 

 

 

 

Statement:
Also in this verse if Allah  was going to talk about Imamate which is an usul and Allah says that foundations/usul's are in precise verses so tell me why would Allah use a word with multiple meanings and secondly why would Allah  not talk about all 12 imams if this verse is supposed to be precise.

 

(1) First of All Imamate is Guidance, the Person who is chosen By Allah After the prophet (pbuh). How Many Successor Did the Previous Prophets Have in the First place? Its Proven that the Foundation of Imamat is there and the verse I mentioned are for the Prophet (s) Successor. As he said: " I am the Warner and you are the Guide" Considering the verse we discussed a while ago ( I Proved it to be Authentic). The verse is Precise Considering that took place during during that happening ( look Closely Above at the Hadith.)

(2) The prophet (pbuh) used the Term "Khalifa many times, please stop putting my Evidence a side, (revise page 17/18/19). You have yet not Objected to them?    

 

statement:
You could argue that Allah ( swt) is our guardian which is true and as it says in surah 2:257. Then tell me in surah 2:257 is Allah  telling us he is our leader or our guardian.

 

Leader and Guardian are of the same. When we talk about who is the Successor of the prophet (pbuh) we are talking precisely about who will Guide the Ummah, and in the terms of the "Ummah" Leadership is Required since Islam is a Guide for every beings live, a way of life which one must follow, and who knows Islam better than the prophet (s) and Ali (s)?  

 

 

Statement:
A guardian does not necessarily have to be a leader for obvious reasons as I have told you above.

 

(1) What reason? Can you please Mention each one? 

(2) In the terms if the Affairs of Allah, the Religion of Allah, Who is to say its Guardian is not a leader?
(3) Invalid Reasoning.

 

Statement:  
So for argument sake I agree that you can use the word guardian in surah 5:55 but this still does not mean the concept of Imamate.

 

(1) We are not talking about the Guardian of mere people.
(2) We are talking about the Guardian of the the Religion of Allah.
(3) Which proven to you, that Allah Puts a Khalifa on earth for every time. ( as Mentioned on page 18 third/Second last post) 

 

Statement:

I've said from day 1 that I firmly believe that ali a.s was the first spiritual guide after prophet (s) (peer) and the job of a peer is to help guard the iman of his followers.

 

(1) ​Islam Is a religion that is a Guide for all Aspects of life, and this Includes Political, Social, Spiritual issues. So there is No Excuse for you Prefer a fasle Khalifa over the Real one.

(2) from Day one you gave no proof of that statement.
(3) I from Day one Proved to you with Authentic Traditions of the Khilafa of Imam Ali (s).
(4)  From day one You have given me nothing to prove the Khilafa of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.


Statement:  
Also tell me if Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì was specifically talking about leadership in verse 5:55 then why would he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì include himself?? Does that even make sense 

 

(1) What is the Definition of Master to you? if by the means of Master, then One has Authority over you.
(2) This Includes Allah, the prophet (s) and Imam Ali (s).


(salam) 

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Brother. No Muslim scholar could ever cast any doubt in the documentation of the tradition of Ghadir Khum, for it has been narrated with as much as 150 authentic chains of transmitters by the Sunnis alone. (Please see Part III for the evidences in this regard). A Mutawatir report is a report which has been narrated unbrokenly and independently by so many people so that no doubt can be entertained about their authenticity. Even the students of Ibn Taymiyyah such as al-Dhahabi and Ibn Kathir who have proven their enmity toward the Shia, emphasized that the tradition of Ghadir Khum is Mutawatir and Sahih (authentic) (See al Bidayah wan Nihayah). However some people did try to interpret the tradition in a different way. They particularly tried to translate the words WALI (master/guardian), MAWLA (master/leader), and WILAYAH (mastery/leadership/guardianship) as friend and friendship.

Dictionaries give a minimum of 20 meanings for the Arabic word WALI, depending on context, most have to do with the position of leadership and
guardianship. Only in one instance it could mean a friend.

Arabic References:
- Elias' Modern Dictionary, by Elias A. Elias, Arabic-English, p815-816,
Lebanon.
- al-Munjid fi al-Lughah, v1.



Some suggested that what really the Prophet (s) wanted to say was: "Whoever I am his friend, Ali is his friend."

There was no doubt that Imam Ali (as) had a very high status in comparison with all other people. He was the first male who embraced Islam (Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p642; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v4, p317; Mustadrak by al- Hakim, v3, pp 111,136; Sirah Ibn Hisham, p345; Tabaqat by Ibn Sa'd, v3, p71,72; al-Istiab by Ibn Abd al-Bar, v3, p30). He received the title of the "brother" of Prophet (Sahih Tirmidhi v5, p363; Sirah Ibn Hisham, p504; Tahdhib v4, p251). He was the one for whom Prophet said: "Loving Ali is believing, hating Ali is hypocrisy." (Sahih Muslim, v1, p48; Sahih Tirmidhi, v5, p643; Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p142; Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal v1, pp 84,95,128). Thus it does not seem to be logical for the Prophet (s) to keep more than a hundred thousand people in such unbeatable heat, and keep them waiting in such condition until those who have left behind reach the place, and then all to tell them was that "Ali is the friend of believers!"


Moreover how can we justify the revelation of Verse 5:67 which was revealed before the speech of the Prophet in which Allah said:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and
Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Quran 5:67).


Is it logical to say that Allah warned his Prophet that if he does not convey the message of "friendship of Ali", he has spoiled all he has done?! Also what danger can be imagined for Prophet if he states "Ali is the friend of believers"? Then what danger from the side of people is the above verse referring to?

Furthermore, how can the phrase "Ali is the friend of believers" complete the religion? Is the verse of completeness of religion (5:3) which was revealed after the speech of Prophet suggesting that without saying "Ali is the friend of believers" the religion is not complete?

Also, as we quoted in the first part, Umar and Abu Bakr congratulated Ali by saying: "Congratulations O son of Abu Talib! Today you became the MAWLA of all believing men and women." If, here, the word MAWLA means friend then why the

congratulations? Was Ali the enemy of all believers before that time, so that Umar said that this day you BECAME the friend of them?!

In fact, every WALI is a friend, but the reverse is not always true. This is why the Arabs use "Wali al-Amr" for the rulers, meaning the master of the affairs. Thus, logically speaking, the word MAWLA can not be interpreted as friend, and we should rather use its other more-frequently- used meanings which are Leader and Guardian.

Perhaps one would ask why Prophet didn't use other words to further explain his intention. In fact, people asked him the same question, and the following Sunni documentations are the answers of the Prophet (s):

When the Messenger of Allah (s) was asked about the meaning of "whomever I am his MAWLA then Ali is his MAWLA". He said: "Allah is my MAWLA more deserving of me (my obedience) than myself, I do not dispute him. I am the MAWLA of the believers, more deserving in them than themselves, they do not dispute me.

 

Therefore, whomever I was his MAWLA, more deserving in him than himself (and) does not dispute me, then Ali is MAWLA, more deserving in him than himself, he does not dispute him."

Sunni references:
- Shamsul Akhbar, by al-Qurashi, Ali Ibn Hamid, p38
- Salwat al-'Arifin, by al-Muwaffaq billah, al-Husain Ibn Isma'il al
Jurjani.



(2) During the reign of Uthman, Ali protested by reminding people the following tradition. Also, he reminded it again during the war of
Siffin:

When the Messenger of Allah spoke of (Tradition of Ghadir)..., Salman stood up and said: "O' Messenger of Allah! What does WALAA mean? and how?" Prophet replied: "The same way that I am your WALI (Wala-un ka wala'i). Whomever (considered me) I was more deserving in him than himself, then Ali is more deserving in him than himself."


Sunni reference: Fara'id al-Samtain, by Hamawaini (Abu Is'haq Ibrahim Ibn
Sa'd al-Din Ibn al-Hamawiyia), section 58.



(3)  Ali Ibn Abi Talib was asked about the saying of the Messenger of Allah "Whomever I am his MAWLA then Ali is his MAWLA". He said: "He erected me chief ['alaman]. To the time I am up there, whomever contradicts me then he is lost (misguided in religion)."

Sunni reference: Zain al-Fata, by al-Hafiz al-'Asimi


(4) On the commentary of Verse: "And stop them, they are to be asked (Quran 37:24)", al-Daylami narrated that Abu Sa'id al-Khudri said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "And stop them, they will be asked of WILAYAH of Ali."

Also, al-Hafiz al-Wahidi commented on the above verse saying: "This WILAYAH that the Prophet (s affirmed to Ali, will be asked about on the Day of Judgment. It is said that WILAYAH is what Allah meant in the verse 37:24 of Quran where He said: "And stop them, they are to be asked [37:24]". This means that they will be asked about the WILAYAH of Ali (ra). The meaning is: They will be asked if they truly accepted him as their WALI as they were instructed by the Prophet
(s)? or did they loose and ignore it?"

Sunni references:
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, subheading 1,
p229 quoted from al-Wahidi; also quoted from al-Daylami on the authority
of Abi Sa'id al-Khudri.
- Fara'id al-Samtain, by Hamawaini (Abu Is'haq Ibrahim Ibn Sa'd al-Din Ibn
al-Hamawiyia), section 14
- Nudhum Durar al-Samtain, by Jaml al-Din al-Zarandi
- al-Rashfah, by al-Hadhrami, p24



Countless scholars of Quran, Arabic grammar, and literature have interpreted the word MAWLA as Awla which means "having more authority." The following Sunni specialists all confirmed the above meaning:

1. al-Wahidi (d. 468), in "al-Wasit"
2. al-Akhfash Nahwi (d. 215), in "Nihayat al-Uqul"
3. al-Tha'labi (d. 427), in "al-Kashf wal Bayan"
4. Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276), in "al-Qurtayan", v2, p164
5. al-Kalbi (d. 146, quoted in "Tafsir al-Kabir", by al-Razi, v29, p227)
6. al-Farra' (as quoted in "Ruhul Ma'ani", by al-Alusi, v27, p178)
7. al-Nasafi (d. 701), in his "Tafsir", v4, p229
8. al-Tabari (d. 310), in "Tafsir al-Tabari", v9, p117
9. al-Bukhari (d. 215), in "Sahih al-Bukhari", v7, p271
10. al-Zamakhshari (d. 538), in "Tafsir al-Kashshaf", v2, p435
11. Qazi Nasiruddin al-Baydawi (d. 692), in "tafsir al-Baydawi", v2, p497
12. al-Khazin al-Baghdadi (d. 741), in his "Tafsir", v4, p229
13. Muhib al-Din al-Afandi, in "Tanzil al-Ayat"
14. Mu'ammar Ibn Muthanna al-Basri (as quoted in "Sharh al-Mawaqif", by
al-Sharif al-Jurjani, v3, p271)
15. Abul Abbas Tha'lab (as quoted in "Sharh al-Sab'ah al-Mu'allaqah", by
al-Zuzani)
16. Ibn Abbas, in his "Tafsir" written on the margin of Durr al-Manthur,
v5, p355
17. Abu al-Saud al-Hanafi (d. 972), in his "Tafsir"
18. and many more such as Yahya Ibn Zaid Kufi (d. 207), Abu Ubaida Basri
(d. 210), Abu Zaid Ibn Aus Basri (d. 125), Abu Bakr Anbari (d. 328),
Abul Hasan Rummani (d. 384), Sa'd al-Din Taftazani (d. 791), Shaba
Uddin Khafaji (d. 1069), Hamzawi Maliki (d. 1303), Husain Ibn Mas'd
(d. 510), Abu Baqa Ukbari (d. 616), Ibn Hajar al-Haythmai (d. 974),
Sharif Jurjani (d. 618), Abdul Abbas Mubarrad (d. 285), Abu Nasr Farabi
(d. 393) and, Abu Zakariya Khateeb Tarizi (d. 502),...



Thus the word WALI or MAWLA in the tradition of Ghadir Khum does not mean a simple friend, rather it means master and guardian who has more authority
over believers than what they have over themselves as Prophet himself mentioned by saying "Don't I have more authority (Awla) on believers than what they have over themselves?". At least 64 Sunni traditionists have quoted this preceding question of the Prophet, among them are al-Tirmidhi, al- Nisa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad In Hanbal. Therefore, the opinion of the above Sunni scholars accords with what Prophet (s) said by using the word Awla before the word MAWLA. In fact, when a word has more than one meaning, the best way to find out its true connotation is to look at the association (qarinah) and the context. The word Awla (having more authority) used by the Prophet gives a good association for the word MAWLA. Also the prayer of Prophet after his declaration in which he said:

"O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him. Help those who help him, and forsake those who forsake him",


shows that Ali (S) on that day was entrusted with a responsibility (rulership) which, by its nature, would make some people his enemy, and in carrying out that responsibility he would need some helpers and supporters. Are helpers ever needed to carry on a "friendship"? Moreover, The declaration of Prophet (PBUH&HF) that "It seems the time is approached when I will be called away (by Allah) and I will answer that call" clearly shows that he was making arrangements for the leadership of Muslims after his death. Also when at the end of his speech, the Prophet (s) said twice: "Behold! Haven't I conveyed the message of Allah?" or "It is incumbent upon every one who is present to inform the absent for they may understand it better than those who are present" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, traditions 5.688, 7.458, and 9.539) shows that the Prophet was conveying a very important message which was going to be transferred to all coming generations. This matter could not have been a simple friendship. It is worth mentioning that Prophet did use the word Caliph in his speech in Ghadir Khum, but it does not appear in the majority of Sunni documents since there is no way to tamper the meaning of that word. However the Prophet (s) also used the word MAWLA in his speech to survive this event from being wiped up from the historical records with no trace. It is interesting to note that the words WALI and MAWLA are also used in Quran frequently with the meaning of master and guardian. For instance, the Holy Quran states:

"Allah is the WALI of those who believe; He brings them out of darkness (and takes them) into light." (Quran 2:257)

The above verse does not mean that Allah is just a friend of believers, because a simple friend who has no authority can not move anybody into light. Rather it means Allah is the Master of believers and that is why He moves them from darkness to light. In another verse Allah said: "Surely the AWLIYAA of Allah have no fear nor do they grieve." (Quran 10:62)

The word AWLIYAA is the plural form of WALI. The above verse does not mean that whoever is the friend of Allah does not have any fear. Many good Muslims may have experienced fear for some events in their lifetime while they are NOT the enemies of Allah. Thus the above verse suggests something else than a simple friend. Here the word WALI is in the form of FAEEL with the meaning of MAF'OOL. So the above verse means: "Those whose guardian and the master of their affairs is Allah are not subject to fear and apprehension." So if a believer TOTALLY submits to Allah, he then will not have any fear. But ordinary believers whose submission are not perfect, will probably be subject to fear of this and that, while we are still friends of Allah. Thus "WALI of Allah" is a person who has totally submitted his affairs to Allah and therefore he is totally protected by Allah from any kind of flaw and sin. This status is much higher than position of being just a "Friend of Allah". Nevertheless Allah uses the word AWLIYAA in its general meaning that is "protectors". The Holy Quran states:

"The believers, men and women, are AWLIYAA of one to the other: they command to what is just and forbid what is evil" (Quran 9:71).


Looking at different translations, one can find that they have used the word "protectors" for the meaning of AWLIYAA. The above verse does not want to say that believers are just friends of each other. Rather the believers are under a mutual obligation to one another, and are occupied with each other's affair. As a result of these obligations, they "command each other what is good and forbid each other what is evil" as the rest of above verse suggests. Thus here the meaning of AWLIYAA, though is still higher than "friends", but it is clearly lower than "master" and "leader". Here AWLIYAA has been used in its general meaning. But for a special meaning of WALI, see the following verse:

"ONLY Allah is your WALI, and His Messenger and those among believers who keep alive prayer AND pay Zakat while they are in the
state of bowing." (Quran 5:55)


The above verse clearly suggests that NOT all the believers are our WALI with the special meaning of WALI in this verse which is "master" and "leader". Again, here it is clear that WALI does not mean just friend. because all the believers are friends of each other. The above verse mentions that only three things are your special WALI: Allah, Prophet Muhammad, and Imam Ali for he was the only one at the time of Prophet who paid Zakat while he was in the state bowing (ruku'). Muslim scholars are unanimous in reporting this event. Here are just some of the Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above verse of Quran in the honor of Imam Ali Earlier:

 
 


(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the
authority of Ibn Abbas
(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi
(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391
(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

 

 

Paying Zakat during bowing (ruku') is not a Sunnah. This is accepted by ALL Muslim scholars. Thus the above verse does not seek to set down the desirability or the necessity of paying Zakat during bowing (ruku'), nor does it want to lay it down as duty or something recommended legally in the Islamic sense as a kind of Divine Law (Shari'ah). Rather it is a reference to an action which took place when someone did something in the external world, and now Quran is pointing that action to indicate that person. In an indirect way, the verse wants to say that this WALI is a special WALI whose authority has been put beside the authority of Prophet Muhammad (s) since they are jointly mentioned. One may object that even though Ali did this action, a plural form has been used in the above verse, thus it might encompass some other people as well. First, the history tells us that there was no other individual who did this at the time of Prophet. Second, this way of approach in Quran which uses plural form but actually referring to just one person who did that particular act, is NOT uncommon in Quran. For instance Allah mentioned:

"They say: If we return to Medina the mightier (element) will soon drive out the weaker." (63:8)


Here also Quran is referring to a story which took place, and uses the phrase "They say" while the speaker of the above sentence was not any more than one person. According to Shia and Sunni commentators he was Abdullah Ibn Ubayy Ibn Salul. Quran tries to avoid using names of people as much as possible. This is done for many reasons such as generality to make it a universal book, and also to make Quran safer from any possible alteration by those who hate a special individual who has been praised in Quran, or by those who love a person who has been denounced in Quran. Using plural while referring to single, has another application too. Sometimes the act of a single person is worthier than the deeds of a whole nation. This was the case for Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali, as well as the case for Prophet Abraham. Quran mentions that Abraham (as) was a nation (Ummah), meaning that his deeds was more valuable than all other people.
Allah stated:


"Lo! Abraham was a nation (Ummah) who was obedient to Allah, by nature upright, and he was not of the idolaters" (Quran 16:120)

The famous and respected companion of Prophet, Ibn Abbas (ra) said:

"There is no verse in Quran in which the term `Believers', unless Ali is at the top of them and the chief of them and the more virtuous one among them. Surely Allah has admonished the companions of Muhammad (s) in Quran, but He did not refer to Ali except with honor."

Sunni references:
- Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p654, tradition #1114
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v3, p229
- Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p171
- Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p89
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 9, section 3, p196
- Others such as Tabarani and Ibn Abi Hatam


And further, Ibn Abbas said:

"There hath not been revealed in the Book of God regarding any one what hath been revealed concerning Ali," and that "three hundred verses have been revealed concerning Ali."


Sunni references:
- Ibn Asakir, as quoted in:
- Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p171
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 9, section 3, p196


Thus the verse (5:55) is actually saying that ONLY Allah is your WALI, and then Prophet Muhammad, and Imam Ali. Thus we can conclude that the WILAYAH (mastership/leadership) of Imam Ali is the same as that of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) since Allah put them beside each other. The authority
of Prophet Muhammad is explained by the following verses of Quran:


"The Prophet has a greater priority/authority (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves" (Quran 33:6)

or:

"O' you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those from among you who are given authority (by Allah)." (Quran 4:59)

One may look at other verses with regard to the authority of Prophet such as 4:65, 59:7, 9:103, 33:21. Putting all these verses beside the verse
5:55, one can derive that this priority and authority will also be for Imam Ali after the demise of the Messenger of Allah.


al-Nisa'i and al-Hakim have also recorded other versions of the tradition of Ghadir Khum with different wordings which provide more insight to the meaning of the tradition. They narrated on the authority of Zaid Ibn Arqam that:

Prophet added: "Certainly Allah is my MAWLA and I am WALI (master/ guardian) of all the faithful." Then he grasped the hand of Ali and said: "He (Ali) is the WALI of all those of whom I am WALI. O Allah! Love those who love him and hate those who hate him."


Sunni references:
- Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, p21
- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p109



In another wording:

Prophet (pbuh) asked three times: "O' people! Who is your MAWLA? They replied: Allah and His Messenger." Then he grasped the hand of Ali and
raised it and said: "Whoever his WALI is Allah and his Messenger, then this man is his WALI also."

Sunni reference: Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, p6



If WALI means friend, then why people answered only Allah and His Messenger are WALI? They should have answered all the believers are WALI. This clearly shows that people got it right, but they later chose to act otherwise. Now let us look at the following tradition:

Ali came to the plain of Rahbah, and some people told him "Peace on you O' our MAWLA!" Ali replied: "How can I be your MAWLA while you are Arabs (free men)?" They said: "We heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) on the day of Ghadir Khum who said: `Whoever I was his MAWLA he (Ali) is his MAWLA.'"


Sunni reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p419


If MAWLA means friend, then why was Ali (as) asking the above question? Was friendship new to Arabs? In fact Imam Ali was asking this question to reiterate the importance of the word MAWLA and showing that people at that time did not mean it friend for him, and that what they meant is master of the believers.

Concluding the above discussion, it is clear that any individual who tries to trivialize the tradition of Ghadir Khum by saying that Prophet just wanted to say "Ali is the friend of believers", is neglecting the above-mentioned traditions of prophet in which he explained what he meant by WALI, and also neglecting the above-mentioned verses of Quran (those which were revealed in Ghadir Khum and those which explain the importance of WALI). Finally, the following tradition from Sunni references further illuminates the fact that WALI means Imam since the tradition uses the phrase "follow them" and "Imam". Ibn Abbas (ra) narrated that the
Messenger of Allah said:

"Whoever wishes to live and die like me, and to abide in the Garden of Eden after death, should acknowledge Ali as WALI after me, and take his WALI (i.e., Imams after him) as WALI, and should follow the Imams after me for they are my Ahlul-Bayt and are created from my clay and are gifted with the same knowledge and understanding as myself.Woe unto those who deny their virtues and those who disregard their relationship and affinity with me, for my intercession shall never reach them."


Sunni references:
(1) Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v1, pp 84,86
(2) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p128
(3) al-Jamiul Kabir, by al-Tabarani
(4) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani
(5) Kanzul Ummal, v6, p155
(6) al-Manaqib, by al-Khawarizmi, p34
(7) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi, p149
(8) History of Ibn Asakir, v2, p95

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Brother ISLAMIC history you are deliberately dodging my main question.

I asked you for ONE precise verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says he will send imams for this ummah and you are giving me hadith which do not even help you.

Il ask the question AGAIN.

Do you have a precise verse yes or no.

You have me ulil amr verse but tell me, honestly how on earth is this a precise verse??

Let's analyse it.

1. We are not told precisely who the ulil amr are like we are told precisely who the first authority Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and second authority messenger ( pbuh) is.

2. When it comes to "referring" we are not told to refer to ulil amr since shia believe he or them have the same authority as Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh).

So again.... HOW IS THIS A PRECISE VERSE PROVING IMAMAT??

Also there are hadith where we are told that the father of imam mahdi a.s will be called abdullah and your imam mahdi a.s was the son of imam Askari a.s. So what if it says "appear" what's the big deal in that.

 

 Brother just the truth, you have been given many precise verses that Imaamath is from Allah and he expects you to recognize the Imaam of your generation and time. Also it has been made clear to you that, Allah has put a party/group in charge, as the third authority in line, right along side Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), sometimes as Ulul Amre and sometimes as Wali. Many references and points have been put forward to you, which you had no choice and deliberately and knowingly ignored and brushed aside. Hadiths are just as important as Ayaath.

 

Now if you are not sure of who the Ulul Amre and Walis are then, all you have to do is turn to Hadiths. What you are doing and the confrontational stance that, you are putting up, is an absolute disregard towards Hadiths and even the Messenger (pbuh) himself. Probably this is your only way, to hang on by the thread, in this discussion. Never mind about the Quran, just prove to me through Hadiths that, the Prophet (pbuh) said "obey your Hakim-e-Waqth or obey your parents" and then we shall examine those Hadiths with the Quran and see if we can find any connection.

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1. What you mean "I never proved it"?? Are you blind.

How on earth can this verse be PRECISE if we are told only to refer to Allah (swt) and his messenger??

Maybe look up the meaning of PRECISE in the dictionary!!

Ok it's not precise in telling us who the ulil amr are although we are precisely told the first two authorities BUT THE LEAST IT SHOULD BE IS PRECISE IN THE INSTRUCTIONS!! LIKE REFER TO ULIL AMR.

YOU SAID

(1) I did not tell you "go" to the Hadith. Please Stop Twisting Words.

(2) I gave you an Explanation for the verse and then I Proved to you how it Relates to the Sayings of The prophet (s) which As I in addition Showed you that the prophet Does not Speak or Reveal only by the Orders of Allah.

MY ANSWER

So hold up, let me get this straight. In point 1 above you say you never told me to go to hadith but then in point to you say "I gave you an Explanation for the verse and then I Proved to you how it Relates to the Sayings of The prophet (s)"

SO IN SIMPLE WORDS YOURE SAYING GO TO SAYINGS OF PROPHET (pbuh) which are hadith!!

TALK ABOUT CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.

YOU SAID

(1) I rejected this Ideology previously Three pages ago on this Thread and you seem to exclude y Answer and move on as if I have said nothing.

(2) you must be Narrow minded; In the time of the prophet (s) as the verse Came down, do you think the verse cam down on teachers? on Parents? on Normal Commanders? In the verse 5;55 We are told to obey Imam Ali (s), and it is proven on the day of Ghadeer Khum the prophet (s) made him the Successor after him. He has Authority over us. You Simply like to Make assumptions for everything. Third of All don't say Teachers, Parents, and So on, in Tafsir ibn Kathir and other Sunni Tafsirs have referred to this verse for the Commander of Syriaan. Which previously I proved it to be wrong as it did not match the verse Logically. And you Failed to Reply to the points I made about the Bukhari hadith you put Forward.

MY ANSWER

1. Like your answer makes sense!! Listen bro for the 100th time in that verse it says obey Allah (swt) messenger (pbuh) and ulil amr. And if you differ in anything refer to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh).

Tell me one thing bro if we are told to obey ulil amr then why arnt we told to refer to them in second part of verse? YOU ARE DELIBERATELY DODGING THIS POINT.

Ask anybody with half a brain cell and they will tell you that the differing must be with the ulil amd that's why we are told to refer to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

2. Bro you're seriously blind I tell u that. This verse was sent down for ALL generations and the reason that Allah (swt) has not described exactly who the ulil amr are then this only proves that anybody with authority must be obeyed but if we differ then refer to Allah and messenger. If the ulil amr was ONLY AND ONLY your imams then Allah WOULD HAVE TOLD US SPECIFICALLY THAT THE ULIL AMR ARE IMAMS APPOINTED BY HIM!!! Get a grip of yourself will ya.

THE GOLDEN QUESTION IS THAT IF WE ARE TOLD TO OBEY ULIL AMR THEN WHY NOT REFER TO HIM TOO?? It's pretty obvious that the differing must be with ulil amr like that hadith I shown you in bukhari.

YOU SAID

Who are they? And what has this Got to do anything with the debate? please Stop Making up baseless Excuses.

MY ANSWER

Yea I totally understand why you've decided to deliberately play dumb with this point. It's because your belief of your 12 imams falls flat on your face.

The imams of the Ismaili sect are claimed by them to be the ulil amr likewise with zaydi Bohari sunni wahabbi etc etc.

NOW PLEASE STOP PLAYING DUMB AND TELL ME WHY WOULD Allah (swt) NOT DESCRIBE TO US WHO THE ULIL AMR IS. IF TOU ARE GOING TO USE THIS AS YOUR PRECISE VERSE.

YOU SAID

You really are Narrow Mined my dear brother. I will tell you to ask "your" self how can we refer to the prophet? Did he not say I have left in My Ummah two Weighy things Which if you hold on to them you "Will Never" go astray? The book of Allah and My Ahlulbayt? did he not say that? and if we want to Refer to the book of Allah Do we not neeed a prophet Interpretation from an Authentic hadiths? And Who knows The Quran better than Ahlulbayt (s)? your making up a baseless Excuses here; The Ahlulbayt (s) have knowledge of the prophet (s) and the Book Of Allah.

MY ANSWER

Yea like you're so broad minded arnt you. The way you define AHLE BAYT actually cracks me up, no it literally does crack me up. You say you follow "infallible imams" when you can't prove your claim that they were born infallible. NOW OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THE VERSE PROPERLY. IT SAYS Allah (swt) "INTENDS" TO "PURIFY". Now tell me why would Allah (swt) "INTEND" on doing something if he has already done it (made them born infallible).

It's a bit like Allah (swt) saying " he INTENDS to make HELL. What do you think people like Christians would say?? PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!!

Do you not think Christians would slaughter us?? Saying that if Allah (swt) has made hell already then why is he saying ""he intends to".

Likewise with your imams if they were born "sinless" then why would Allah ( swt) intend to purify them??

Also if this verse was sent for Imamate then why is bibi fatimah r.a included in it???

YOU SAID

And When the verse says "if you Differ" in "anything" that does not mean the Uli al amr are of bad. How can this be so? When in a another verse Allah is telling them the people to Refer To the prophet (s) and Uli al amr, and Allah says it Would be better? Where is your logic?

MY ANSWER

Do you actually read quranic verses with your eyes open or not. If you read the "other verse" it's pretty obvious that the "differing" is NOT with those with authority ORHERWISE WHY WOULD Allah (swt) TELL US TO REFER TO THE ULIL AMR IN THAT VERSE.

then if you read verse 4:59 anybody who has a brain can see that the reason we are not told to "refer" to ulil amr is because the difference is with him, I even gave you hadith from bukhari to prove my point on referring, WHEREAS YOU HAVE NOT GAVE ME A SINGLE HADITH EXPLAINING WHY Allah (swt) HAS NOT SAID REFER TO ULIL AMR ALSO IN THAT VERSE

YOU SAID

Yes I can with the Evidence proven from the previous page. And this is not the only verse as I have mentioned earlier.

MY ANSWER

Go and look in a dictionary what PRECISE means. Ok fair enough not names but ATLEAST THE INSTRUCTIONS IN THE VERSE HAVE TO BE PRECISE. Like "refer" to ulil amr. Come on bro.

YOU SAID

(1) Istghfarllah? What are you talking about? How did you come to the Conclusion that the term Wali in the verse is talking about a Relationship matter? Are you blind? your Wali is Allah, the Prophet (s) and Ali (s), this is a revelation to the people. Third of All the Guide is Allah, the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (s). would you like you tell if the verse is not talking about Leadership then What is it Talking about?

MY ANSWER

Tell me brother do you read my answers or just guess what I might have written?? I said it is clear that the relationship we have with ali a.s must be the same we have with Allah ( swt) and messenger ( pbuh) because it says

Your wali is Allah messenger and ali.

So obviously whatever wali means in that verse it means the same for Allah ( swt) messenger (pbuh) and ali a.s.... Tell me what is so blind about that??

The bottom line is that the word used is wali, so since Allah (swt) has used a word with multiple meanings your evidence for a PRECISE verse goes out of the window.

YOU SAID

Third of All its not Ally, its Master. Can you please tell me how you came up with Ally? or how they came up with it? So Allah is just our Allay? the prophet is just our Ally ? By meaning this would be invalid. to the Hadith that is mentioned: for the sake of the readers and this Arguement I shall produce some Sunni references, and traditions in this respect through other sources. Many Sunni commentators of the Quran confirm the fact that the above verse descended on the honor of Imam Ali and many Sunni scholars have also mentioned the unanimity or consensus of opinion in their books. Here are some references in this regard

MY ANSWER

Why can't it be ally?? And no Allah ( swt) isn't just our ally he's our protector guardian etc etc as proven in other verses. The prophet is our ally/friend guardian

Have you even bothered reading the verses before and after these lets take a look

5:57O you who believe! Do not take for FRIENDS those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and fear Allah if you are believers.

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/tafsir/5-57-66/

5:51O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for FRIENDS they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/tafsir/5-51-54/

Like I said from the start, these verses are telling us who to take for friendship/alliance and then in between these above berses Allah (swt) tells us to take Allah (swt) his messenger (pbuh) and ali a.s as FRIENDS/ALLIES/PROTECTORS/GUARDIANS. So this verse was not sent specifically for leadership it was sent to tell us who to keep as friends.

Also I don't know why you giving me "sunni references" when I've never denied this verse was sent for ali a.s.

YOU SAID

(1) First of All Imamate is Guidance, the Person who is chosen By Allah After the prophet . How Many Successor Did the Previous Prophets Have in the First place? Its Proven that the Foundation of Imamat is there and the verse I mentioned are for the Prophet (s) Successor. As he said: " I am the Warner and you are the Guide" Considering the verse we discussed a while ago ( I Proved it to be Authentic). The verse is Precise Considering that took place during during that happening ( look Closely Above at the Hadith.)

(2) The prophet used the Term "Khalifa many times, please stop putting my Evidence a side, (revise page 17/18/19). You have yet not Objected to them?

MY ANSWER

1. Bro you keep saying ali a.s is appointed by Allah (swt) yet you havnt given me one verse to prove your point.

What has the successors of previous prophets a.s got up do with us

How on earth have you proven Imamate

I've already been over this with you and told you the prophet is the Warner and the guide and ali a.s is the secondary guide. THE WAY YOU ARE INTERPRETING THE VERSE IS;

The prophet is literally only a WARNER and ali a.s is the guide.

When anybody with an open heart can tell you that the prophet (pbuh) is the Warner and the guide.

2. "Evidence"??? You bring a load of copy and paste and call it "evidence".

YOU SAID

Leader and Guardian are of the same. When we talk about who is the Successor of the prophet we are talking precisely about who will Guide the Ummah, and in the terms of the "Ummah" Leadership is Required since Islam is a Guide for every beings live, a way of life which one must follow, and who knows Islam better than the prophet (s) and Ali (s)?

MY ANSWER

No ali a.s does not need to be a "leader" to guide ummah. Where did you get that none sense from??

Were your other imams leaders of the ummah??? NO THEY WERE NOT. They were imams who used to guide people by educating them and were not leaders of the ummah as in political leaders.

Also if political leadership was a command from Allah (swt) then I believe ali a.s woud have fought till his death to become the political leader because I believe he a.s was the lion of Allah (swt) and was not scared of anyone when it came to obedience to Allah (swt). That's is why I believe if anything ali a.s was purely a spiritual leader. Political leadership was NOT IMPORTANT FOR YOUR IMAMS AND DEFINATELY NOT AN ORDER FROM Allah (swt) because I think ali and the other imams would have died fighting for political leadership if it was a direct commandment

YOU SAID

From day one You have given me nothing to prove the Khilafa of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.

MY ANSWER

what do you make of nahj ul balagah letter 6

BRO BOTTOM LINE IS THST YOUR IMAMS WERE ONLY SPIRITUAL LEADERS THATS IT.

IF POLITICAL LEADERSHIP WAS ALSO ON THE JOB DESCRIPTION I BELIEVE THEY WOULD MEVER HAVE DISOBEYED Allah (swt) AND THEY WOULD HAVE DIED FIGHTING FOR THIS POSITION.

BUT ALI A.S IS THE WALI Allah AND A SPIRITUAL FRIEND/GUARDIAN/PROTECTOR TO ALL BELIEVERS

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Statement:
How on earth can this verse be PRECISE if we are told only to refer to Allah  and his messenger??

 
(1) And how do we refer to the Quran? Would like to explain to me how and from who should we take our Ahadith from to Interpret the Quran? Please Answer this Question with Direct sense.

(2) When the prophet (pbuh) Passed Away, not all the verse Were given its meaning, so who should the people at the time refer to after the prophet (s)? Ahlulbayt (s)? or Abu bakr? Umar? uthman? 

 
(3) How do we refer to the prophet (s)?

(4) In Sunan Ibn Majah the prophet (s) said: "Ali is from me, and I am from Ali". I said this a while back and I asked you if you think Aby bakr is superior why does he not have this position? 

 

Statement:
Maybe look up the meaning of PRECISE in the dictionary!!

 
I think I know very Well what it means. But I wonder whether you know the meaning of "Evading".


Statement:
Ok it's not precise in telling us who the ulil amr are although we are precisely told the first two authorities BUT THE LEAST IT SHOULD BE IS PRECISE IN THE INSTRUCTIONS!! LIKE REFER TO ULIL AMR.

 
(1) Na'zozobillah, Allah as made his Book Perfect in every Aspect.
(2) Uli al Amr have both knowledge of the book of Allah and of What the prophet (s) has.
(3) you cannot make that judgement as you have no knowledge that is pure about the Book of Allah. 





Statement:
So hold up, let me get this straight. In point 1 above you say you never told me to go to hadith but then in point to you say "I gave you an Explanation for the verse and then I Proved to you how it Relates to the Sayings of The prophet (s)" SO IN SIMPLE WORDS YOURE SAYING GO TO SAYINGS OF PROPHET (s) which are hadith!!  TALK ABOUT CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.

 

(1) As we have proven Earlier, you must know what the prophet (s) said in order to understand a Particular verse, otherwise your interpretation or any other Tafsir would Simply become false.

(2) Your mumbling non-sense, since you have not proven anything so far.

(3) I never said Leave the verse and go Directly to a Hadith. Can you pease Quote me saying such a thing.








Statement:
Like your answer makes sense!! Listen bro for the 100th time in that verse it says obey Allah messenger (s) and ulil amr. And if you differ in anything refer to Allah and messenger (s). 

 
(1) You never Answered my Question to begin with.
(2) please Answer the Question above from the start.
​(3) I believe my answer was very much detailed, while you have not refuted any of my stance, that is why you seem repeat your question every single time. I am waiting for your Objection to my third/Second last response on page 18.

 

Statement:
Tell me one thing bro if we are told to obey ulil amr then why arnt we told to refer to them in second part of verse? YOU ARE DELIBERATELY DODGING THIS POINT.

 
This must be the third Claim i Believe as you are accusing me for evading your point. When you have made not single refutation to my position on page 18. I believe I gave you a Direct Answer, you my friend seem to enjoy leaving my questions aside and covering my proof with your false accusations. I am yet Waiting for your response on page concerning page 18.
 
  
Statement:
Ask anybody with half a brain cell and they will tell you that the differing must be with the ulil amd that's why we are told to refer to Allah  and his messenger (s).

 
(1) Can you please stop Mumbling and perhaps use some of your logic to Answer/object to my Replies Thank you.
(2) please Answer the Above Questions I mentioned, So maybe we are able to progress towards an ending point if possible.

 
 


Statement:
Bro you're seriously blind I tell u that. This verse was sent down for ALL generations and the reason that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has not described exactly who the ulil amr are then this only proves that anybody with authority must be obeyed but if we differ then refer to Allah and messenger. If the ulil amr was ONLY AND ONLY your imams then Allah WOULD HAVE TOLD US SPECIFICALLY THAT THE ULIL AMR ARE IMAMS APPOINTED BY HIM!!! Get a grip of yourself will ya.

 
Brother your Failing Again, as you have not given me An answer the following:
 
 



(1) you claim that When we give you a Verse it is Unspecific.
(2) This is the Excuse you use to Not accept The Imamah of Imam Ali  (as).
(3) You Prefer to Exclude even your own books for the sake of your beliefs.

(4) please Define for us what us Precise and Unspecific to you? 
(5) Your Asking for the Exact names from the Quran, because you deny Authentic Traditions.
(6) I will ask you once more, Why was the Instructions on how to preform Salat not mentioned in the Quran?
(7) The Successors of Prophet Jesus (s), Solomon (s), Moses (s) Where not mentioned by name, but my other terms.
(8) Imam Ali (s) Was mentioned in 5:55, And he is to be obeyed. So May I ask you, if you lived in the time of prophet Jesus (s), and in the book of Allah the only term you got for his Successors Was "AlWareen", Will you deny the Successors? because they Were not mentioned by name?
(9) If you lived for example in the time of prophet Jesus (s), Moses (s), Ibrahim, (s), and you only had What a book they left for example but the Successors Were not mentioned by name, bu you were ordered to by them to obey the Successor after them Will you Still deny?

(10) We all know that the prophet Luqman (s) Is mentioned in the Quran, but in the Quran there is no verse where it says he is a prophet (s), So Do you deny prophet Luqman (s)? 


This is also the same issue with verse 33;33 as you are trying to make "everyone" included in something, yet again to evade my points as mentioned above.
 
 
 
 
Statement:
THE GOLDEN QUESTION IS THAT IF WE ARE TOLD TO OBEY ULIL AMR THEN WHY NOT REFER TO HIM TOO?? It's pretty obvious that the differing must be with ulil amr like that hadith I shown you in bukhari.

 
(1) The Hadith in Bukhari I proved to by Incorrect and Illogical, then you resorted to claiming that Alui al amr are Parents, teachers, and etc..... Your are continuously Switching you position, and that is why this Contradicts the above statement you made. 
(2) Na'azobillah, I cannot Know why Allah put the wording as he as perfectly done.
(3)You did not answer the above points?
(4) How can the differing be in Uli al amr? when it says Everything as in "Among them" , "the people". so how does that make them Uli al amr who are appointed by Allah wrong? you make no sense. So if the people at the time of the message of prophet (s), they differed as a side saying a group of people believed that he was not the prophet (s) and the other group believed he was the prophet (s), so does that make the prophet (s) Wrong? Does that make him false? 
(5) I am starting to doubt whether you actually read my replies. You seem be taking my words out of context, infact I assure that you might not be reading at all. 

 
      


Statement:
Yea I totally understand why you've decided to deliberately play dumb with this point. It's because your belief of your 12 imams falls flat on your face.

 
(1) Playing Dumb? you know my dear brother, the irony is that I have never called you such a thing, I may have said your narrow minded or ignorant, but where have I said you are Dumb? can you please use more Adult behavior is possible?  
 
(2) the 12 Imams are Uli al amr, and so far so you have failed to Answer any question Concerning this topic. Very Ironic really for someone who denies my proof and continues to Insult me.

(3) Your Concept of Shura has Fallen from page 6 of this debate. 

(4) explain to me how they are not the 12 Imams? Do the twelve Imams have no Authority over us or know? Will Imam Mahdi (s) have Authority over us or no? Please answer me.

 
 
Statement:
The imams of the Ismaili sect are claimed by them to be the ulil amr likewise with zaydi Bohari sunni wahabbi etc etc.
NOW PLEASE STOP PLAYING DUMB AND TELL ME WHY WOULD Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì NOT DESCRIBE TO US WHO THE ULIL AMR IS. IF TOU ARE GOING TO USE THIS AS YOUR PRECISE VERSE.

 
I quote again please Answer me this:

 


(1) you claim that When we give you a Verse it is Unspecific.
(2) This is the Excuse you use to Not accept The Imamah of Imam Ali  (as).
(3) You Prefer to Exclude even your own books for the sake of your beliefs.

(4) please Define for us what us Precise and Unspecific to you? 
(5) Your Asking for the Exact names from the Quran, because you deny Authentic Traditions.
(6) I will ask you once more, Why was the Instructions on how to preform Salat not mentioned in the Quran?
(7) The Successors of Prophet Jesus (s), Solomon (s), Moses (s) Where not mentioned by name, but my other terms.
(8) Imam Ali (s) Was mentioned in 5:55, And he is to be obeyed. So May I ask you, if you lived in the time of prophet Jesus (s), and in the book of Allah the only term you got for his Successors Was "AlWareen", Will you deny the Successors? because they Were not mentioned by name?
(9) If you lived for example in the time of prophet Jesus (s), Moses (s), Ibrahim, (s), and you only had What a book they left for example but the Successors Were not mentioned by name, bu you were ordered to by them to obey the Successor after them Will you Still deny?

(10) We all know that the prophet Luqman (s) Is mentioned in the Quran, but in the Quran there is no verse where it says he is a prophet (s), So Do you deny prophet Luqman (s)? 


As I said Earlier:
 


One Who does not Believe in all one of the Twelve Khalifas, Does not believe in All them. According to the school of Ahlulbayt (s).
The Ismailis Stop at the sixth Imam I believe.


And:
 


The narrations that insist upon the existence of Twelve Successors, and only Twelve, remove any doubts one might have that the Imam of the time might be the Imam of one of the other Shi’a sects, such as the Ismailis. The Ismaili lines of Imamate do not accord with the number twelve, and in fact do not even accord with their own sacred number of seven. The Ismailis believed that there would be seven Imams after the Prophet (s), yet all of the Ismaili lines have had many more Imams than seven. As such, there should not be any question about whether or not the current Imam (whom the Qur’an states must exist) is one of the Ismaili Imams. As for the Zaidis, they do not have an Imamate currently (being abolished in the sixties), and do not believe that Imamate is an office of necessity or appointed by God. As such, even if they had an Imam now, he would not be the type of witness, guide, and Imam foretold by the Holy Qur’an.
 
This leaves us only with the Twelver Shi’as. the people who is seeking to disprove the coming of Imam al-Mahdi (s) argues that there were many Shi’a sects at the time of Imam al-‘Askari (s)’s death, something which is true. The question which he seeks to pose is why modern-day Shi’as believe in the idea of a Hidden Imam, and did not follow one of these other Shi’a sects that emerged after Imam al-‘Askari (s)’s death?
 
The reasons for this our obvious: that these other sects contradict the Qur’an and the teachings of the Prophet. These other sects died out because they could not prove their claims based upon Qur’an and hadeeths: only those who believed in a living but occulted Twelfth Imam were able to do so. We see that some believed Imam al-‘Askari (s) left no child; this would mean that Imamate ceased with him. As such, such people are not Twelver Shi’as at all but are Eleveners, something for which there is no evidence for and contradicts what the Prophet (s) taught. Others believed that the Imamate went to the brother of Imam al-‘Askari (s), but as he never did anything to prove that he was endowed with the knowledge or wisdom of an Imam, and then later died for all to see, it is impossible to believe that he was an Imam. Others believed that Imam al-Mahdi (s) died during ghaybah, but then this would mean no Imam which, in accordance with the Qur’an, is an impossibility. Others said he had yet to be born but would come in the future, which also contradicts with the Qur’anic evidences discussed above. Finally, we are left with only one possibility: that there is an Imam living amongst us, as the Qur’an has said, and that since we cannot see Him he must be hidden and not visible to physical senses.

 
 




Statement:
Yea like you're so broad minded arnt you. The way you define AHLE BAYT actually cracks me up, no it literally does crack me up. You say you follow "infallible imams" when you can't prove your claim that they were born infallible. NOW OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THE VERSE PROPERLY. IT SAYS Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì "INTENDS" TO "PURIFY". Now tell me why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì "INTEND" on doing something if he has already done it (made them born infallible).

It's a bit like Allah saying " he INTENDS to make HELL. What do you think people like Christians would say?? PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!!!

 
You are very Ignorant I must say as you failed to reply to me on this issue when I said before:

 

What Kind of Question is this? How are We suppose to Question What Allah says?
And keep in mind that When Allah Intends, He wants, and When he Wants he has been done.
are you saying that What Allah Wants will not get? (Istaghfarallah)

 
Sorry but you make no sense let us Examine the following:
 

وَلَا تُعْجِبْكَ أَمْوَالُهُمْ وَأَوْلَادُهُمْ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُعَذِّبَهُم بِهَا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَتَزْهَقَ أَنفُسُهُمْ وَهُمْ كَافِرُونَ

 " And let not their wealth and their children impress you. Allah only intends to punish them through them in this world and that their souls should depart [at death] while they are disbelievers. " - 9:85

We can see here very Clearly that Allah is telling not to care about the Wealth and Children of others of Certain people, and that Allah INTENTS only to punish them through them. So here you cannot say, that Allah has Punished them before, But he does this TO THEM, To punish them, and this goes Vise-verse to the Purification verse. Allah INTENDS to Remove "Rijs" From Alhulbayt to Purify them, from All that is "Rijs" (sin).


Again lets take another look at another verse:

_______


 

وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَن يَفْتِنُوكَ عَن بَعْضِ مَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَن يُصِيبَهُم بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ

"And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient." - 5:49 

We see the same issue here, that if they the people Turn away from What Allah has Revealed to them, then Allah Well Intend to Afflict them With their own sins, and keep reading and he says "Many people are Defiantly Disobedient, to assure this issue stated. But When We Compare this verse to the Purification verse we see, that in the Purification Allah is being Direct That he "Only Intends", and no Factors for that intention is Required to make the "Intention" happen, but it is Direct and a Must. Same with the Above verse.   


there are many more verses I can mention Also on this issue.

 



Please use Some proper Language my dear brother. 
 
 
Statement:
Also if this verse was sent for Imamate then why is bibi fatimah r.a included in it???

(1) I never said the verse was mentioned as Imamat. please Quote me saying such a thing.
(2) the verse proves the Infalibility of Ahlulbayt (s).
(3) Fatimat'olZahraa (as) is Infallible. 





Statement:
Do you actually read quranic verses with your eyes open or not. If you read the "other verse" it's pretty obvious that the "differing" is NOT with those with authority ORHERWISE WHY WOULD Allah  TELL US TO REFER TO THE ULIL AMR IN THAT VERSE.

 
(1) did not answer the Question.
​(2) Answered on this post Above ( look up ).
(3) Can you please stop Insulting me brother? When are going to speak with more Adultlike behaviour?
(4) this Question the same as the above, Why are you repeating the same question three times on each post? Having a longer post does not make on Smarter dear.  

 
 

Statement:
then if you read verse 4:59 anybody who has a brain can see that the reason we are not told to "refer" to ulil amr is because the difference is with him, I even gave you hadith from bukhari to prove my point on referring, WHEREAS YOU HAVE NOT GAVE ME A SINGLE HADITH EXPLAINING WHY Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì HAS NOT SAID REFER TO ULIL AMR ALSO IN THAT VERSE.

 
Brother first of all the verse obliges the Muslims to obey two things: First, to obey Allah; second, to obey Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr). The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Quran uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again. Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr. It is also clear from the above verse that Ulul-Amr are not restricted to messengers otherwise Allah would only have said: "Obey Allah, and Obey Messenger only." But He added Ulul-Amr (those who are given authority by Allah). This is one of the places where the concept of Imams and the necessity of obedience to them come from. In the previous post "Appoiting a Successor" I quoted verses proving my stance and here as we see, many verses of Quran to prove the infallibility of the Prophet (s). All those verses proved the following two points:


1. The authority of the Messenger of Allah (s) upon the believers was unlimited and all-comprehensive. Any order given by him, under any condition, in any place, at any time, was to be obeyed unconditionally.
 
(2) Supreme authority was given to him because he was sinless (Ma'sum) and free from all types of errors and sins. Otherwise, Allah would not have ordered us to obey him with no questioning or doubt.
 
Also from the verse 4:59 we concluded that Ulul-Amr have been given exactly the same authority over Muslims as of Messenger, and that the obedience of Ulul-Amr has the same standing as the obedience of the Messenger.
 
It naturally follows that Ulul-Amr must also be sinless (Ma'sum) and free from any type of error, otherwise, their obedience would not have been joined with the obedience of the Prophet and WITHOUT any condition. The Commander of Believers, Imam Ali (as), said:




The one who disobeys Allah is not to be obeyed; and "verily obedience is for Allah and of His Messenger and those vested with authority." Verily, Allah ordered (people) to obey the Messenger because he was sinless and clean (pure), who would not tell people to disobey Allah; and verily He ordered (people) to obey those vested with authority because they are sinless and clean (pure), and would not tell people to disobey Allah." (Ilal al-Sharaye', by Shaikh al-Saduq, v1, p123).
 
 
Like you and many of your kind tend to interpret "Ulul-Amr Minkum" as the rulers from among yourselves, i.e., Muslims rulers. This interpretation is not based on any logical/Quranic reasoning; it is solely based on the twists of history. The majority of the Muslims have remained as a vassal of the monarchs and rulers, interpreting and reinterpreting Islam and the Quran to strengthen their own kingdom.
 
The history of Muslims (like any other nations) is replete with the names of rulers whose injustice, debauchery and tyranny have tarnished the name of Islam. Such rulers have always been and will be. And we are told that they are the Ulul-Amr mentioned in this verse!
 
If Allah were to order us to obey such kings and rulers, an impossible situation would be created for Muslims. The wretched followers would be condemned to the displeasure of Allah, no matter what they do. If they obey these rulers, they have disobeyed the Command of Allah: "Do not obey a sinner" (Quran 76:24). And if they disobey such rulers, they have again disobeyed the Command of Allah: "Obey the Muslim rulers" (if it would mean so). Therefore if we accept this interpretation, Muslims are condemned to eternal disgrace whether they obey or disobey their fallible (sinful) Muslim rulers.
 
Also, there are Muslim rulers of different schools and persuasions. There are Shafi'is, Hanbalis, Malikis, Hanafis, as well as the Shi'a and Ibadis. Now, according to this interpretation the Sunnis residing under an Ibadi king (like in Amman) should follow Ibadi tenets; and those residing under a Shi'a ruler (like in Iran) should follow the Shi'a beliefs. Do these people have the conviction of courage to follow their professed interpretation to its logical end?
 
The famous Sunni scholar, Fakhr al-Razi, concluded in his Tafsir al-Kabir that this verse proves that Ulul-Amr must be infallible (Ma'sum). He argues that Allah has commanded people to obey Ulul-Amr unconditionally; therefore, it is essential for the Ulul-Amr to be infallible; because if there is any possibility of their committing sin (and sin is forbidden), it means that one has to obey them and also disobey them in that very action, and this is impossible! However, in order to dissuade his readers from the Ahlul-Bait, Fakhr al-Razi invented the theory that the Muslim community as a whole is infallible! (Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin Muhammad Ibn Umar al-Razi, v10, p144)
 
This interpretation is unique, and no Muslim scholar ever subscribed to this theory and it is not based on any tradition. It is quite surprising that Fakhr al-Razi accepts that each individual of the Muslim nation is fallible, yet claims that their sum total is infallible. Even a primary school student knows that 200 cows plus 200 cows makes 400 cows and not one horse. But Fakhr al-Razi says that 70 million fallible people plus 70 million fallible people will make one infallible! Does he want us to believe that if all the patients of a mental hospital join together they would be equal to one sane person?
 
Obviously, with his knowledge of Quran, he was able to conclude that Ulul-Amr must be infallible; yet he did not pause to see that the verse contains the word "minkum" (from among you) which shows that Ulul-Amr should be part of Muslim community, not the whole Muslim nation. Moreover, if the whole Muslim nation is to be obeyed, then who is there left to obey?
 
Moreover, the whole community have never had a single voice. Then who should we follow among them? Also, the opinion of majority is not a good criteria to distinguish the false from the truth. Looking at the Quran, one could see that Quran severely denounces the majority of by frequently saying that "the majority do not understand," "the majority do not use their logic," "the majority follow their whims"... since the vision of the majority of people is always impaired due to their tendencies.( see e.g. 6:116, 5:49, 10:92, 30:8) We now turn to the correct interpretation of the above verse, that is the interpretation of the verse by Ahlul-Bait. Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (the 6th Imam) said that this verse was revealed about Ali, al-Hasan and al-Husain, peace be upon them. Upon hearing this, someone asked the Imam: "People say, why did Allah not mention the name of Ali and his family in His Book?" Imam answered: "Tell them that there came the command of Salat (prayer), but Allah did not mention whether three or four units to be performed; it was the Messenger of Allah who explained all the details. And (the command of) Zakat (religious tax) was revealed, but Allah did not say that it is one in every forty Dirhams; it was the Messenger of Allah who explained it; and Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) was ordered but Allah did not say to perform Tawaf (turning around Ka'ba) seven times; it was the Messenger of Allah who explained it. Likewise, the verse was revealed: Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you, and it was revealed about Ali and al-Hasan and al-Husain (who were the only living Imams at the time of the Prophet)."
 
It is quite obvious that if Allah would have ever mentioned the name of Imam Ali (as) in Quran explicitly, those who bore mountains of hatred against him would have attempted to alter the Quran. Thus this was the Grace of Allah that He codified all the branches of knowledge of religion in Quran to be understood ONLY by the processors of the understanding mind. And in this way, Allah kept Quran intact.
 
On the commentary of the verse 4:59 of Quran in which Allah orders us to obey Ulul-Amr, al-Khazzaz in his book, Kifayatul Athar, gives a tradition on the authority of the well-known companion of the Prophet (s), Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (ra):




When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (PBUH&HF): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?"
 
The Prophet (s) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams of Muslims after me. The first of them is Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husain; then Ali son of al-Husain; then Muhammad son of Ali who has been mentioned 'al-Baqir' in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja'far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja'far; then Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of Ali; then Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith."
 
Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?" The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know."
 
(Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53).
 
Now that we know who "those vested with authority" are, it is evident that the question of obeying tyrant and unjust rulers does not rise at all. Muslims are not required by the above verse to obey rulers who may be unjust, tyrannical, ignorant, selfish and sunk in debauchery. They are, in fact, ordered to obey the specified Twelve Imams, all of whom were sinless and free from evil thoughts and deeds. Obeying them has no risks whatsoever. Nay, it protects from all risks; because they will never give an order against the order of Allah and will treat all human beings with love, justice, and equity.
 


 



Statements:
Tell me brother do you read my answers or just guess what I might have written?? I said it is clear that the relationship we have with ali a.s must be the same we have with Allah ( swt) and messenger ( pbuh) because it says Your wali is Allah messenger and ali. So obviously whatever wali means in that verse it means the same for Allah ( swt) messenger (s) and ali a.s.... Tell me what is so blind about that?? The bottom line is that the word used is wali, so since Allah Why can't it be ally?? And no Allah ( swt) isn't just our ally he's our protector guardian etc etc as proven in other verses. The prophet is our ally/friend guardian Have you even bothered reading the verses before and after these lets take a look

...and then you mentioned the verses.
 
 
No doubt brother Its revelation to honour `Ali is a matter of consensus among scholars of the exegesis of the Holy Qur'án. Such consensus is attested to by many Sunni scholars like Imám al-Qawshaji in his chapter on imámate in Shar< al Tajríd. Chapter 18 of Gháyat al-Marám includes one <ádíth narrated through the Sunnis testifying to our claim. Had I not aspired to be brief, in addition to the fact that this issue is as clear as the sun in midday, I would have quoted for you many comments thereupon in authentic chronicles, but, praise to Alláh, it is a matter which does not entertain any doubt. Despite that, we do not like to let this letter be without a few a<ádíth narrated by the majority of Muslims.
 
Suffices us what Imám Abu Is<áq A<med ibn Ibráhím al-Nísábúri al-Tha`labi has stated in his Al-Tafsír al-Kabír. When the writer comes to this verse, he quotes Abu Tharr al-Ghifári saying: 
 
"I have heard the Messenger of Alláh, peace be upon him and his progeny, with these ears - may I be deaf if I tell a lie - and saw him with these eyes - may I be blinded if I lie - saying: `Ali is the leader of the pious, the annihilator of infidels; whoever supports him is supported by Alláh, and whoever abandons him is abandoned by Alláh.' I have, indeed, said my prayers once in the company of the Messenger of Alláh, peace be upon him and his progeny, when a beggar came to the mosque and nobody gave him anything. `Ali was in the state of ceremonial prostration when he beckoned to him to take his ring. The beggar came and took it from `Ali's finger, whereupon the Messenger of Alláh, peace be upon him and his progeny, invoked Alláh, the Almighty, the Omniscient, and prayed Him on behalf of `Ali saying: `Lord! My Brother Moses had prayed to you saying: Lord! Remove the distress from my bosom, render my mission easy for me, and untie my tongue's knot so that people may understand me, and let me have a vizier from my own kin, my brother Aaron, to support my endeavour and participate in my undertaking, so that we may both praise you a great deal and mention your Name a great deal; You have been most Kind unto us (Qur'án, 20:25-35);-thereupon, You inspired to him: Verily, your prayer has been granted, O Moses! (Qur'án, 20:36). Lord! I am Your servant and Prophet; therefore, remove my distress, render my mission easy for me, and grant me a vizier from my kin, `Ali, to support my endeavour'. By Alláh, the Messenger of Alláh, peace be upon him and his progeny, had hardly finished his supplication before Gabriel, the trusted one, brought him this verse: `Only Alláh is your wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who say their prayers and offer zakat (even) while prostrating (in prayers). And whoever takes for wali Alláh, His Messenger, and the believers, they, indeed, are the party of Alláh; they are the ones who shall achieve victory (Qur'án, 5:55-56).'" 
 
You, may Alláh support righteousness through your own person, know that the meaning of the word "wali" in such a context is "one who has the top priority in faring with one's affairs." We say "Such and such is the minor's wali." Lexicographers have made it clear that whoever takes charge of someone's affairs is the latter's wali. The meaning of the verse, therefore, is as though Alláh says that "the ones who take charge of your affairs and have priority even over your own lives in faring with the latter are: Alláh, the Almighty and Omniscient, His Messenger, and `Ali," for in `Ali alone have all these qualities been combined: faith, saying the prayers, and offering zakat even while prostrating in prayers, and for whom these verses were thus revealed. The Almighty has in these verses reserved wiláyat for Himself and for both His Messenger and wa#i in the same manner. The wiláyat of Alláh, the Almighty and Omniscient, is general and inclusive. So is thewiláyat of the Prophet as well as his wali; it carries the same meaning. It is not possible to apply to it in this context the meanings of "supporter, loved one, etc.," since such a restriction [of application] is groundless, as is quite obvious. I believe this is a quite clear matter, and praise to Alláh, Lord of the Worlds. 
 
The Definition of Wali is Important Whether it is Ally,Master, Friend, however you are more inclined on making it as friend to justify your point and ignore leadership. Thus you are evading mu original stance and moving/switching between your assumptions. The verse your gave do not make a difference because you cannot simply say that every word Wali in the the Quran means merely friend, nor can you included any one in the verse 5:55 as it only for Allah, The messenger and Ali (s), thus Allah, The prophet (s) and Imam Ali (s) are the Guardians of religion, they are the guide, and we must follow the guide must we not? So I ask you again why did the people follow the fasle Khalifa Abu bakr? Who gave him that Authority? We have time and Time again proved that Khalifas must be appointed by Allah and not by mere fallible people are most of them Disobeyed the prophet (s). Your Stance at the moment is not Justifiable to your opinion no have you given us any proof of it so far that is why you have failed through this debate to Answer my Questions. Now My dear brother have you ever asked your self why in the verse 5:55  "the Mu'mins who say their prayers and offer zakat (even) while prostrating (in prayers)" is applied to the plural; so, why should it be applied to the Imám, may Alláh glorify his countenance, who is singular? What is your answer if you are asked thus?       
 
 
The answer to your question is that Arabs apply the plural expression while addressing an individual due to the nice effect it produces [i.e. respect]. Secondly a testimony to this fact is what the Almighty says in Súrat Ál-i-`Imrán: Those to whom some people said: "A large army has been raised against you; so, fear them," yet it only increased their faith, and they said: "Alláh suffices us, and He is the One upon Whom we depend most." (Qur'án, 3:173)
 
The person implied in these verses of Ál-i-`Imrán is none other than Na`ím ibn Mas`úd al-Ashja`i, according to the consensus of scholars of exegesis, traditionists, and chroniclers. Yet Alláh Almighty has applied to him, the singular person that he is, the plural form just to express respect for those who did not listen to his statements nor heeded his dissuading calls. Abu Sufyán had given him ten camels in order to demoralize and frighten the Muslims regarding the strength of the polytheists, and he did just that. Among his statements then was: "People have gathered a mighty force to attack you; so, fear for your own lives." Many Muslims disliked the idea of fighting that force just because of his statement, but the Messenger of Alláh, peace be upon him and his progeny, came out accompanied by seventy cavaliers to meet them, and they all returned from the battle-field safely, whereupon this verse was revealed praising the seventy believers who came out with the Messenger of Alláh, peace be upon him and his progeny, heedless to the dissuasion of those who wished to demoralize them. In applying the word "people" for just one individual, a nice and divine point is made which is complimenting the seventy men who came out with the Prophet. This surely sounds more eloquent when used as such; it is better than saying: "Those to whom a man said that a large army had been raised..., etc.," as is obvious. There are numerous verses in the Holy Qur'án similar to this one, as well as in the Arabic language as a whole. The Almighty Alláh says: "O you who believe! Remember Alláh's blessing unto you when some folks intended to lay their (evil) hands upon you, and He protected you against their harm." In fact, the person who intended to lay his evil hands upon them and hurt them was a man from the tribe of Mu<árib named Ghawrath - others say it was `Amr ibn Ja<sh of Banu al Na_ír - who unsheathed his sword and shook it intending to strike the Holy Prophet (pbuh), but Alláh, the Almighty and the Glorified, foiled his attempt, according to the narration of the incident as recorded by traditionists, authors of chronicles, and scholars of exegesis, and as transmitted by Ibn Hisham in the campaign of Thát al Riqá' in Vol. 3 of his book titled Sírah. Alláh has applied the collective plural "people" for this lone man just to express His blessings, the Dear One, the Omnipotent, upon the Muslim masses manifested in the safety of the Prophet, peace be upon him and his progeny. In the Mubahala verse, He has applied both the singular and the plural forms to the "sons," "women," and "selves" to both the \asanain, Fá>ima, and `Ali in particular, just to honour to their lofty status, may Alláh be pleased with them. Examples for the application of the plural form for the individual wherever necessary are innumerable and beyond recounting, and they all prove the license to use the plural form while talking about one individual whenever there is a nice eloquent effect thereto.

Thirdly In his interpretation of this verse, in Mujma`ul Bayán fí Tafsír al-Qur'án, Imám al-^ibrisi comments on the usage of the plural form to refer to the Commander of the Faithful as a token of respect and veneration, stating that lexicographers describe the singular using the plural form to show respect and veneration. He says: "Sucn an application is too well known in their language to require proofs." Fourthly In his Kashsháf, al-Zamakhshari mentions another nice point when he says: "If you wonder how it can be accurate to use the plural with `Ali, may Alláh be pleased with him, I will tell you that he is addressed in the plural form, although he is only one man, so that people may follow his example and earn rewards like his, and so that Allah may point out the fact that a believer's attitude should be like `Ali's, that is, being eager to do deeds of righteousness and goodwill by looking after the poor, so much so that even the performance of something which does not permit any delay, such as saying the prayers, should not make them postpone it till they are through." 

 
And lastly  I personally have a nice and more precise point. When the Almighty applied the plural rather than the singular form, as many do, then those who hated `Ali as well as all those who were envious of and in competition with Banu Háshim would not be able to tolerate hearing it in the singular form, for they would then be unable to hide the truth or water it down. Because of their desperation, they might even do something quite harmful to Islam. It is quite possible that it was for this reason that the verse was revealed in the plural form though applied to the singular: in order to avoid the harm resulting from disgracing those folks. The verses after that particular one vary in form and status, gradually preparing them for wiláyat, till Alláh perfected His religion and completed His blessing, as was his usual habit, peace be upon him and his progeny, and that of the wise in attaining what otherwise is quite difficult to attain. Had the verse come in the singular form, those folks would have then put their fingers in their ears, covered themselves with their own clothes and become stubborn, arrogant, and naughty. This is a sublime wisdom manifested in all the verses of the Holy Qur'án which were revealed to highlight the attributes of the Commander of the Faithful and those among his purified household, as is quite obvious. We have explained these statements and brought irrefutable proofs and obvious testimonies in our books Sabíl al-Muminin and Tanzíl al-Ayát, and praise be to Alláh for His Guidance and Support.


Statement:
Also I don't know why you giving me "sunni references" when I've never denied this verse was sent for ali a.s.

 

You seem to be misreading? I am urging you read the Actual hadith which the verse came down upon, to understand the definition of Wali in the verse. If you did not realize this point, then I have no doubt you prefer to Scan-read. If you don't know what I mean by Scanread, perhaps search it up. 
 

 

Statement:
Bro you keep saying ali a.s is appointed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì yet you havnt given me one verse to prove your point.

 

Brother Did you not read the verses I mentioned in page 18 (second/third) last reply? you did not object to them yet? I am still waiting? and 5:55 is clear on who we should follow. In addition you did not prove Abu bakr's Khilafa yet? where is it? 

 

Statement:
What has the successors of previous prophets a.s got up do with us

 

This Whole debate is based on Proving the Concept of Imamah do you not understand? And as we proved to you some verse that came specifically for Imam Ali (s), Proving he is the Imam after the prophet (s) and not Abu bakr.

 

 
Statement:
How on earth have you proven Imamate

 

How have I proven it? You have by Putting Forward:

(1) Evidence of the prophet (s) telling the Ummah that Imam Ali (s) is the Khalifa.
(2) Evidence of the Identity of Ahlulbayt (s) and there Infallibility.
(3) Evidence of Who is the Imam Mahdi (a.f)
(4) Evidence of the Identity of the Twelve Khalifas.
(5) Evidence of on Whom the verses cam down upon from Sunni Literature.
(6) You have never Rejected any of the above.
(7) Lets not Forget My Questions On Shura and the False Khilafa of Abu bakr.

    
Statement:
I've already been over this with you and told you the prophet is the Warner and the guide and ali a.s is the secondary guide. THE WAY YOU ARE INTERPRETING THE VERSE IS; The prophet is literally only a WARNER and ali a.s is the guide. When anybody with an open heart can tell you that the prophet (S) is the Warner and the guide.

 

(1) please show proof and Quote me saying "The prophet (s) is not the Guide" (N'aozobillah)
(2) The prophet (s) To Imam Ali (s): " I am the Warner and you are the Guide"
(Proven)

(3) By the meaning of Guide we are talking about The guide of the Religion of Islam so now you must accept Imam Ali (s) as your Khalifa and not Abu bakr.



Statement:
"Evidence"??? You bring a load of copy and paste and call it "evidence".


(1) And this is the reason Why you refuse to read? When in the last time you Copied and Pasted I Read the Whole Article and Refuted it on the same post. So why can you not do the same?

(2) My so called Copied and Pasted Work, I have actually in the previous post "Appointing a Successor" Gone through the resources and Actually Scanned it straight from the book it self and Uploaded it on "Appointing a Successor" Do you call that Copy and Past? Please brother give me One Hadith from all that I have given you, so that I may find the book in PDF form and Scan it for you again. Otherwise your reason is Invalid.    





Statement:
No ali a.s does not need to be a "leader" to guide ummah. Where did you get that none sense from?? Were your other imams leaders of the ummah??? NO THEY WERE NOT. They were imams who used to guide people by educating them and were not leaders of the ummah as in political leaders. Also if political leadership was a command from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì then I believe ali a.s woud have fought till his death to become the political leader because I believe he a.s was the lion of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and was not scared of anyone when it came to obedience to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. That's is why I believe if anything ali a.s was purely a spiritual leader. Political leadership was NOT IMPORTANT FOR YOUR IMAMS AND DEFINATELY NOT AN ORDER FROM Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì because I think ali and the other imams would have died fighting for political leadership if it was a direct commandment.

 

 

 

This False Continuous Claim that the Three Khalifas are Political leaders and Imam Ali (s) is a Spiritual leader is one of the most absurd claims some of our bothers make up so. The First illogical point about this is how can you Distinguish in the religion of Islam between Political and Spiritual leaders? you have said "leaders" but how so? What is Islam in the first place? it is away of life and what Choosing between right and wrong and striving towards the Satisfaction of Allah, therefore every Action! @Brother JusttheTruth, read brother, every action we make we are held accountable for. And that is What Islam is about. Now when the prophet (s) was guiding the Ummah, was not Guiding them in every aspect of life? Islam it self is a Guide in all your actions and aspects of life, he told them for example this wrong and this is right, you should do this and not do that. This includes political Decisions , especially when we are talking at stake of the whole Islamic Ummah, But these decisions are made according to the "Islamic Law" am I correct or not? and therefore who would know The Islamic Law better than Imam Ali (s)? Who? tell me? if your going to say The Sahabahs know best, then why did Allah not mention them in verse 5:55? They should be mentioned if they are truly knowledgeable about Islam and its Ruling and to understand its ruling we have to refer to the Prophet (s) and the Quran and Remebber what the prophet (s) said: I am the city of Knowledge and Ali (s) is its gate. What does that say to you my dear brother? We need to ask Imam Ali (s) To know what the prophet (s) means or says. And after the death of the prophet (s) he told us that the book of Allah and his Ahlulbayt (s) are those who we should hold on to? correct or no? therefore you Fasle Claim on trying to Separate Politics of Religion is false. 

   




Statement:
From day one You have given me nothing to prove the Khilafa of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. what do you make of nahj ul balagah letter 6


I quote:

 

 

 

The following is a letter to Mu'awiya and in it Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã has used the same principle that he applied on Talha and Zubayr. Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in this letter has raised all the points which were once quoted against him. He says if an election on the basis of general franchise is the criterion to decide such a caliphate, then general election took place to elect him the Caliph and nobody can deny this fact, and if limited franchise (Shura) was the criterion then those who represented this group (Muhajirs and Ansars) were amongst those who elected him and therefore even according to the rules formulated by opponents of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã his election was lawful, regular and bonafide. Thus no Muslim has a right to speak or act against him.

(1) So my dear brother, No were does Imam Ali (s) claim they are the Khalifas.
(2) The letter is in accordance to the Atrocities of Muwaiyah.
(3) lets not forget your so called Khalfia umar appoint Muwiyah, so how can Umars khilafa be pure?



(salam)

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Brother just the truth, you need to stop getting and taking things personal. Blind, dumb etc??? What's with the humiliating and insulting comments??? What's with the sarcasm??? All the points you have mentioned, have got nothing to do with sense and logic. They're not based on reality and facts. I repeat again, alot of questions have been asked and points have been made to you, both by my self and brother Islam history but you haven't bothered to respond.

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Brother just the truth, all you're doing is using the Ulul Amre verse, just to prove your understanding and explanation, which is absolutely baseless to begin with. Allah has put a third party/group in authority, in command and announced it through the Ulul Amre verse. You're using the Ulul Amre verse to justify your belief and faith that, Allah gave his seal of approval about, who ever, when ever and how ever comes into power. This is not true.

Hakim-e-Waqth can be anybody and has been anybody and there is no way that, Allah would put anybody, alongside himself and his Messenger (pbuh) and ask you to obey him.

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Brother just the truth, all you're doing is using the Ulul Amre verse, just to prove your understanding and explanation, which is absolutely baseless to begin with. Allah has put a third party/group in authority, in command and announced it through the Ulul Amre verse. You're using the Ulul Amre verse to justify your belief and faith that, Allah gave his seal of approval about, who ever, when ever and how ever comes into power. This is not true.

Hakim-e-Waqth can be anybody and has been anybody and there is no way that, Allah would put anybody, alongside himself and his Messenger (pbuh) and ask you to obey him.

 

We proved Earlier that Uli al amr are appointed by Allah, but he does not Acknowledge that yet despite the Logical and Literal proof we put Forward, that is why we are still Arguing Sadly.

   

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We proved Earlier that Uli al amr are appointed by Allah, but he does not Acknowledge that yet despite the Logical and Literal proof we put Forward, that is why we are still Arguing Sadly.

   

 

Brother, he wants a precise verse from the Quran where Allah says that, he is going to send 12 Imaams after the Messenger (pbuh) and here are their names. I don't think he is interested in the Prophet (pbuh) and what he has to say. And if it's not as straightforward as this then, basically what ever the Prophet (pbuh) has said is meaningless.

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