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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Brother just the truth, you said "obedience towards the Ulul Amre is conditional" and I say, what are the conditions??? Do the people choose to disagree with the Ulul Amre, on what ever they feel like or do we have some rules and regulations here??? If we do then, what are they and who are they from???

"And if you disagree", disagree with who and why??? "Fee shay inn", on anything or in anything. Here you said "on anything what so ever" or "in anything, meaning, everything". Then you said "I meant religious matters". A twist from you about your own words. I further asked you "what do you mean in religious matters???". I thought you said "on anything", meaning anything at all. On everything. Now you're saying "in religious matters". So "fee shay inn", doesn't just mean "on anything", it means, on anything in religious matters and this is exactly my point, to which we have finally arrived that, "fee shay inn" means, on anything within this, within religious matters or within this or within something. On anything within, well something. Or on anything about something. Within this, is attached to "fee shay inn" and these are not my words or I'm not adding my words.

Brother just the truth, you believe one should obey their parents, unless they tell you to go against Quran and Sunnah, for example: they tell you not to pray or not to fast. First of all this is beyond my understanding that, why the hell would your parents tell you to do that or even say that, to begin with???

But still, now if the son wanted to become an engineer but the parents were not happy and they wanted him to become a doctor or not carry on with his ambitions but instead look after the family business, so what do you think the son should do here??? Obey his parents ??? And he followed his ambitions, would that be disobedience???

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Exactly, Why Going Round and Round having Food....

 

Brother, Why Complicate The Matters, Its not about Barging, Its a simple understanding...

 

Or Its a Motive to Acceptance. Ok Who Appointed Hazrat Ali, He Himself, Or Allah , Or People Acknowledged It.

 

Or Is it a Connectivity Issue?

 

Yes, Imam Mahdi Appointed By Allah, What About The Acceptance of The People?

 

Even That Should be Already decreed Matter By Allah.

 

 

 

Connectivity issues? sorry?

It was Clear what the prophet (pbuh) said In the Day of Ghadir Khum. And Clear that He is the Righteous Khalfia.

We have so Many Ahadith about the prophet (pbuh) saying that Ali (as) is the Wali of every Muslim, The Khalifa after him. 

Second of All its not up to the people whether to accept Imam Mahdi (a.f), They are Obligated to to follow him and obey his Commands.

If Allah sends down a prophet (s), Is it there Choice whether to accept him or not?

(salam)

 

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Brother just the truth, why didn't Allah just say "refer the matter back towards me (Allah)??? If every thing should be taken directly from the Quran then, this is exactly what Allah would have said. But infact Allah said "refer the matter back towards me (Allah) and my Messenger (pbuh)". This tells you that it's not just Allah, through the Quran but also the the Messenger (pbuh), through the Sunnah. Allah here has just proven that, it's not just him but the Messenger (pbuh) as well. It's not just the Quran but the Sunnah as well.

Now we now that it's not just Allah that is important but his Messenger (pbuh) as well. It's not just the Quran that we should be looking at and be dependent upon but the Messenger (pbuh) and the Sunnah as well.

If the Prophet (pbuh) has said something but you don't find it anywhere in the Quran, word to word then, what are you going to do??? Yes it is obvious that, in the current climate, you are going to clarify this, if this is exactly what the Prophet (pbuh) said. And to do this one must find a connection in the Quran but you wont find it exactly word to word and letter to letter.

Allah has clearly said "what the Prophet (pbuh) says or gives you, take it and where he tells you off or what ever he wants you to leave, then do that"

It is clear in the Quran that Allah appoints Imaams, to guide the people, according to Allahs command. Allah has already made it clear that, he has created a third position of authority. Allah has made it clear that, he has put somebody straight in line and in sequence, alondside himself and his Messenger (pbuh). Allah has made it clear that, a group/party will govern you as your Ulul Amre. Allah has made it clear that, there is a group/party, who are your wali.

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You have stages in authority. First stage in authority is, someone who puts down terms and conditions or who issues principals or rules and regulations, who lays down circumstances.

Second stage in authority is, someone who tells you and makes you aware of them and explains to you and warns you of the consequences about them.

It doesn't stop here. The third stage in authority is, someone who protects and defends them, who further clarifies them, who guides you through them and who makes sure you stand by and abide by them.

You can't deny the third stage of authority or reject those who are third in line authority.

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Brother just the truth, what is your opinion on a Hakim-e-Waqth, who happens to be a Muslim and who commands people to go against the Quran and Sunnah, knowingly and deliberately??? Like the examples you have given, don't pray and don't fast??? Would you consider him as a Kafir??? Would this thought not cross your mind that, being a Muslim and a leader of the Muslims, why the hell would he, knowingly and deliberately, give such a command or go against the Quran and Sunnah??? And if he did then, there is and should be, no confusion in this matter and the entire Ummah should be united over this, not divided.

So what do you have to say about this, according to your understanding and explanation, regarding the Ulul Amre verse, Yazeed was Hakim-e-Waqth, therefore was the Ulul Amre. Now Hazrath Hussain (as) stood up against the Ulul Amre of the time, WHY??? Do you believe Hussain (as) was right (on haq)?? Do you believe that Hussain (as) stood/rose, in the name of Islam, to save Islam??? Do you believe that Yazeed was a threat to Islam and went against the Quran and Sunnah??? If yes then wouldn't that make Yazeed a Kafir???

If Yazeed was a threat to Islam and he went against Quran and Sunnah, Hazrath Hussain (as) stood up to Yazeed, to save Islam then, where was the Muslim Ummah andwhat the hell were they doing??? What was the confusion in this???

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Why was the vast majority with Yazeed or just stood by and remained silent and wathched??? You only had seventy two men, who were interested in saving Islam and who stood by Hussain (as). What a shame and this was the Muslim Ummah. So what went wrong??? What's your story???

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Brother, I have read the verse properly and it says "And if you disagree", now what does this mean??? That you are allowed to disagree. This is what I exactly said.

You said "This doesn't necessarily mean, any disagreement", but you said in your previous post that, you can disagree with your Ulul Amre, over anything and that means, anything at all, everything. "And if you disagree, fee shay inn, meaning, in anything and that means, anything at all".

Why are you suddenly playing around with your own words???

Why would the Ulul Amre say "pray 5 raka'ath in dawn prayers"??? This is a clear violation of Sharia law. Such matters are crystal clear and are well known through out. There can't be a misunderstanding on such matters. One would only do this deliberately and knowingly. What you are saying doesn't make any sense at all. Why would the Ulul Amre, being a Muslim and leading the Muslim Ummah, go against the Quran and Sunnah, to begin with???

If we are told to refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and that is to turn to Quran and Sunnah, don't you think the Ulul Amre would be familiar with this too??? What kind of a leader are you trying to show the Ulul Amre here??? That the people are more knowledgeable and informative, than the Ulul Amre himself??? The understanding and explanation you're giving about the Ulul Amre, shows the Ulul Amre as some kind of idiot.

It says "if" and not "allowed"??? Brother "if you disagree" means, you are allowed to disagree. If you are not allowed to disagree, then there would be no "if". Try and make some sense.

What I asked you was, if there is a non Muslim, a person who does not believe in the Quran or the Messenger (pbuh), then how would you prove to him that, there is no one worthy of worship, except Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is his Messenger??? What??? Show him the Kalimah from the Quran??? Man, the person doesn't even believe in the Quran to begin with. How would you prove to this person that, the Quran is the book of Allah???? Here both, the Quran and the Messenger(pbuh), meaningless to the person. So what will you do???

NO why are YOU playing around with your own words.

i said fee shayin means IN ANYTHING

and you said it means ANYTHING IN THIS

why are you lying to yourself to me and to all the viewers

Brother, I have read the verse properly and it says "And if you disagree", now what does this mean??? That you are allowed to disagree. This is what I exactly said.

You said "This doesn't necessarily mean, any disagreement", but you said in your previous post that, you can disagree with your Ulul Amre, over anything and that means, anything at all, everything. "And if you disagree, fee shay inn, meaning, in anything and that means, anything at all".

Why are you suddenly playing around with your own words???

Why would the Ulul Amre say "pray 5 raka'ath in dawn prayers"??? This is a clear violation of Sharia law. Such matters are crystal clear and are well known through out. There can't be a misunderstanding on such matters. One would only do this deliberately and knowingly. What you are saying doesn't make any sense at all. Why would the Ulul Amre, being a Muslim and leading the Muslim Ummah, go against the Quran and Sunnah, to begin with???

If we are told to refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and that is to turn to Quran and Sunnah, don't you think the Ulul Amre would be familiar with this too??? What kind of a leader are you trying to show the Ulul Amre here??? That the people are more knowledgeable and informative, than the Ulul Amre himself??? The understanding and explanation you're giving about the Ulul Amre, shows the Ulul Amre as some kind of idiot.

It says "if" and not "allowed"??? Brother "if you disagree" means, you are allowed to disagree. If you are not allowed to disagree, then there would be no "if". Try and make some sense.

What I asked you was, if there is a non Muslim, a person who does not believe in the Quran or the Messenger (pbuh), then how would you prove to him that, there is no one worthy of worship, except Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is his Messenger??? What??? Show him the Kalimah from the Quran??? Man, the person doesn't even believe in the Quran to begin with. How would you prove to this person that, the Quran is the book of Allah???? Here both, the Quran and the Messenger(pbuh), meaningless to the person. So what will you do???

NO why are YOU playing around with your own words.

i said fee shayin means IN ANYTHING

and you said it means ANYTHING IN THIS

why are you lying to yourself to me and to all the viewers

Stay patient I'm writing a reply to both you and ISLAMIC history

Why was the vast majority with Yazeed or just stood by and remained silent and wathched??? You only had seventy two men, who were interested in saving Islam and who stood by Hussain (as). What a shame and this was the Muslim Ummah. So what went wrong??? What's your story???

Well I wasn't around and neither were you nor will we be questioned regarding the tragedy of Karbala.

So why you wasting time talking about something that has been discussed for the past 1400 years and got this nation nowhere except more division.

For the record abdullah bin Zubair r.a rebelled against yazeed.

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Salaam brothers and sisters. Take a look at brother just the truth's last post. This is the best he can do. He has no clear opinion on Yazeed and can't distinguish between haq and batil, when it comes to Karbalaa.

What??? Karbalaa has caused division??? You can't decide between Hussain (as) and Yazeed??? I'm not talking about Abdullah ibne Zubair, i just want to know your opinion, on this Ulul Amre (Yazeed) of yours. What is your position??? Where do you stand???

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Salaam brothers and sisters. Take a look at brother just the truth's last post. This is the best he can do. He has no clear opinion on Yazeed and can't distinguish between haq and batil, when it comes to Karbalaa.

What??? Karbalaa has caused division??? You can't decide between Hussain (as) and Yazeed??? I'm not talking about Abdullah ibne Zubair, i just want to know your opinion, on this Ulul Amre (Yazeed) of yours. What is your

position??? Where do you stand???

You seem to think you're extra clever. Yazeed was ulil amr whether we like it or not BUT he was a faasiq and a lot of people differed with him. So abdullah bin Zubair r.a fought him and was martyred.

If you are going to use the verse ulil amr as your precise verse as we are told in surah 3:7 that the foundations are in clear/precise verses then there are two flaws to your interpretation

1. Allah describes himself as an authority then he describes his messenger but when it comes to third authority it's just ulil amr. If this verse is precisely saying that the third in authority is your imams then why did Allah ( swt) not say who they were?? We believe that "those with authority" can be leaders parents anyone with authority over us since we are not told in the quran as to who the ones with authority are. "Although this verse was sent for (according to sunni) an army leader it still says "those with authority" so since Allah (swt) never narrowed down those with authority down to a certain person(s) this verse can be interpreted with anyone with authority over us.

2. If your imams were appointed so we could refer to them all our religious matters then why not precisely mention them in the part of the verse where Allah (swt) says "refer to Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh)".??

Please wait I'm writing a reply trying to get to the bottom of this

AMEEN these two flaws above need an answer from you and I want reasons for your answers

Edited by Just the truth

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statement:

Allah describes himself as an authority then he describes his messenger but when it comes to third authority it's just ulil amr. If this verse is precisely saying that the third in authority is your imams then why did Allah ( swt) not say who they were?? We believe that "those with authority" can be leaders parents anyone with authority over us since we are not told in the quran as to who the ones with authority are. "Although this verse was sent for (according to sunni) an army leader it still says "those with authority" so since Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì never narrowed down those with authority down to a certain person(s) this verse can be interpreted with anyone with authority over us.

 

 

Previous Reply:

 

 

First, this divine book is concise. It contains many general principles but few details, which have been left for the chief commentator, the Holy Prophet, to explain. Allah says: "And whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it; and from whatever he forbids you, keep back." (59:7)

 

Because the names and numbers of the twelve Imams are not mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, some people do not accept them. But on that basis they should reject their own caliphs since no verse of the Holy Qur'an makes any mention of their caliphs, except Ali Bin Abi Talib, or of the Umayyad or Abbasid caliphs, or of the authority vested in the Community to elect a caliph by consensus.

 

Second, if it is necessary to reject anything which is not clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an, then you should reject many of the methods of our worship since there is no mention of their details in the Holy Qur'an.

 

The ritual prayer is perhaps the central act of worship in a Muslim's life. The Holy Prophet emphasized its performance. He said: "The ritual prayer is the pillar and protector of religion. If the ritual prayer is accepted, all other religious performances will be accepted. If it is rejected, all other religious performances will also be rejected."

 

Of course, there is no mention in the Holy Qur'an of the number of units (rak'ats) to be performed for each prayer or any of the other specific details regarding how the prayers are to be performed. Does this mean that we should abandon the prayers? The Holy Qur'an simply says: "Establish salat (prayer). There are no details distinguishing required from optional acts. These were explained by the Holy Prophet. 

 

In the same way other commands have been stated in the Holy Qur'an in principle only. Their details, conditions and relevant instructions were explained by the Holy Prophet. Similarly, concerning the Imamate and caliphate, the Holy Qur'an says only: "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those in authority among you." And we are bound to follow the Holy Prophet's order in this regard in the same way we follow his instructions with regard to the details of the ritual prayers.

 

Muslim commentators, whether Sunni or Shia, cannot make their own interpretations of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet said: "If someone gives his own interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, his place is Hell."

 

Accordingly, every sensible Muslim turns to the real interpreter of the Holy Qur'an, the Holy Prophet. For many years I have studied both Sunni and Shia Qur'anic commentary and hadith but have never come across a single hadith in which the Holy Prophet said that 'uli'l-amr' refers to political rulers. On the other hand, the books of both the Sunnis and Shias contain numerous reports that the Holy Prophet was asked to indicate the meaning of 'uli'l-amr' and he replied that 'uli'l-amr' referred to Ali and his eleven descendants. I will present only a few of these numerous hadith which have been narrated through sources accepted by Sunnis.

 

 

Statement:

If your imams were appointed so we could refer to them all our religious matters then why not precisely mention them in the part of the verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says "refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his messenger (pbuh)".??

 

I have explained this before. In My Stance, I do not claim that we cant refer to the Quran ( totally ) we can but we need  the prophet which we cannot refer in total form, Nor the ( Imams Totally) while you on the other hand claim that we should, so that is why I countered by imposing the same Question on you. Now Even if we have so much Ahadith about Certain verses and such, It is well known that we take most of our Ahadith from Ahlulbayt and you from the Companions, Now there is a major Difference. The prophet (pbuh) has left his Ahlulbayt (as) and the Quran as the two main Things which we should hold on to. Meaning that if we want to refer to that the prophet (pbuh) said we must refer to Ahlulbayt (s) because they have the knowledge of the prophet (s), and this is clear then the prophet (s) said: " I am the City of knowledge and Ali (s) is its gate" can you not understand this? Ayone would understand that if we want the knowledge/or refer to the prophet through knowledge we must go through its Door, who we all know is Imam Ali (s), and Look at how many Haidths the prophet (s) said on Ali (s).

Imam Mahdi (s) Has left us Instructions as you previously made a False claim that he did not, ( Also I would like to mention The Imam had four Deputies in the Small Occultation:

 

 

 

 

 

'Ali b. Muhammad Samarri, the Fourth Deputy ( if you want I ca mention the rest )

 

He was the fourth deputy of the Hidden Imam (peace be upon him). His full name was Abu al-Hasan 'Ali b. Muhammad Samarri. According to Ibn Tawus, he had served under the Imam Hadi and Imam Hasan 'Askari. These two Imams were, moreover, in correspondence with him and had written a number of signed notes for him. He was undoubtedly among the most eminent faces of the Shi'a in Baghdad.

 

-Rijal Mamqani, Vol. 2, p. 304.

 

 

 

Husayn b. Ruh, as reported by Ahmad b. Muhammad Safwani, had appointed 'Ali b. Muhammad Samarri in his place so that he could manage his affairs. When his death approached, a number of Shi'is came to see him and asked him about his successor. His response was that he had not been asked to appoint anyone to that position. 

 

-Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 360.

 

It is related by Ahmad b. Ibrahim Mukhallad that one day 'Ali b. Muhammad Samarri, without any indication, said: "May God have mercy on 'Ali b. Muhammad b. Babawayh Qummi!" Those present at that time made note of the date of this pronouncement. Later the news came that 'Ali b. Babawayh had died on the same day. He himself died in the year 329 AH/941 CE.

 

-Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 360.

 

 

Hasan b. Ahmad relates that he was with 'Ali b. Muhammad Samarri some days before he died. A letter came from the Imam which he read for the people. The contents were as follows: 

 

"In the name of God. O 'Ali b. Muhammad Samarri, may God reward your brethren in your death, which is going to take place in six days' time. So take care of your affairs and do not appoint anyone in your place, since the complete occultation has taken place. I will not appear until God permits me to do so (may His name be exalted) and that will be after a long time and after the hearts become hard and the earth is filled with wickedness. In the near future there will be those among my followers who will claim to have seen me. Beware, those who claim this before the rise of Sufyani and the [hearing of the] voice from the sky are liars."

 

 

 

___________
 

 

In Addition you still have no proven to us whether the verse is aimed at Uli al Amr as they are in a Bad way. I made this Statement time and time again, but no answer from you. The verse is not Aimed at Uli amar, but the if Man comes to a disagreement in there affairs. 

_____________



 

 

-Ibid., p. 361.

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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@JUSTHETRUTH

I would like to add:

The prophet (pbuh) Left two things that have complete Authority over us. The First is The book of Allah, and His Ahlulbayt (as). So How can you prefer A So called Chosen Commander over Ahlullbayt (as), And as I mentioned Earlier that The prophet (pbuh) said, that Ali (as) is the Wali of every Believer, So how can you prefer bukhari Over a Hadith which I mentioned that is not only Sahih but Mu[Edited Out]ir?

your second claim was that the Uli al amr were those who where chosen as commanders in the Wars the prophet (pbuh) fought. And non other than Imam Ali (as). You then seem to Switch tactics and go far by saying the Commander of Syriaa'n is the Uli al amr. Therefore now you claim the verse is limited, and obeying Allah and the prophet (pbuh) is limited to that time? The verse no doubted is For All times, therefore you conclusion is false.

Don't forget the "WALI" has Authority over you and he is to be obeyed. 

 

how many Ahadith Where I mentioned that Imam Ali (as) is the wali? you did/Were not even able to refute them.

I would like to see Good Refutations to the 5 points I made Earlier and the Previous reply.


 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(bismillah)

 

Dear brother @JUSTHETRUTH. I will Quote from your books, and I hope that you are able to Understand and Comprehend with it. I am sure that you know of the six Sahihs Written by Bukhair, Muslim, tirimidi, majah Nisai, and so on. So I Would like to see a refutation for the following.

 

The Following verse we are Debating about is:

 

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ
وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآَخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا 
 
 
O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination 

Holy Qur'aan {4:59}     
 
 

 
                            
The obedience that has been ordered in the Holy Qur’aan,"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger" is without any condition or restriction, in other words it is total unconditional surrender. It proves that the Messenger (saw) himself cannot issue any order or prohibition contrary to Allah's ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì actual order or prohibition. Otherwise, making his obedience compulsory would be a contradiction in terms on the part of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì in which He revealed in another verse of the Holy Qur’aan, "Do not obey a sinner" (76.24). The verse (4.59) does not give any condition on what the Prophet (saw) should be obeyed on. Such connotations would have lead every individual to question every action of the Prophet (saw) on whether it be from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì or himself (saw). Thus, it is necessary that the Messenger (saw) be ma'soom (infallible) in order to be obeyed in everything that he does. Likewise, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has joined the Messenger (saw) and 'those vested with authority' in this very order and mentions both under one injunction; "Obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you." If it were possible for those in authority to be incorrect in an order or a judgment, it would have been essential to put suitable conditions on this order as far as the Ul 'il Amar were concerned. The only way out is to interpret this verse in its general sense without any condition or restriction. This in turn, proves that the Ul 'il Amar were ma'soom (sinless) in the same way as the Messenger (saw), without any dissimilarity. This is also supported from numerous authentic narrations that have reached us today from the Ahlulbayt (a.s).

The followers of the Ahlulbayt (a.s) believe the Ul 'il Amar are those very personalities whom the Prophet (saw) ordered us to follow. They are the twelve rightful successors of the Prophet (saw), the 12 Imams (a.s). The Prophet (saw) said: "The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Khalifahs for you, all of them will be from Quraish.'
 
 
 
Muslim ibn Hajjaj:

Narrated Jabir bin Samurah: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him saying: “The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted as long as twelve men are their rulers”. Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: “What did the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him say?” He said: “All of them (the twelve men) will be from the Quraysh”.

Narrated Amir bin Sa'd b. AbI Waqqas: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir bin Samurah and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him. He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, saying on a Friday evening, the day on which al-AslamI was stoned to death (for committing adultery): “The religion will continue to stand until the Hour has been established, or there have been over you twelve Khalifahs, all of them being from the Quraysh”.


Source: Saheeh Muslim. Pg. 882. H. # 5 - 6.

 

 

 

Sahih+Muslim.jpg

 

 

This Contradicts What you claim because the Commander of the Syriaan Country/Village cannot Possibly be one of the twelve, as he in not appointed for the Whole Ummah, but rather for a specific place. Keep in mind the prophet (pbuh) had Many Commanders all over the middle east. So How can the verse come down on one person? When there many people who hade authority on small places. You fail to understand that this verse is meant for the Whole Ummah. You cannot claim that only the people of Syriaan are the only ones who Are to obey Allah and the messenger, can you?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahmad ibn Hanbal:
 
Narrated Masruq: We were sitting with ‘Abd Allah bin Mas’ud and he was reciting the Qur’aan to us. Then a man said to him: “O Aboo ‘Abd al-Rahman! Did you (Sahabah) ask a Apostle, peace be upon him, the number of Khaifahs that will rule this Ummah?” ‘Abd Allah bin Mas’ood replied: “None before you has ever asked me concerning this since I arrived in Iraq. Verily, we asked Allah’s Apostle, peace be upon him, and he said: ‘Twelve, like the captains of Banu Israil.”
 

Footnote: Shuaib Al-Arnaut has said: Its chain is weak because of Mujalid, and Ibn Hajar has weakened him in Al-Taqreeb, despite that the chain is Hasan 'Good' chain, and its other narrators are trustworthy of the narrators of Bukhari and Muslim.

 
Source: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Vol. 4. Pg. 321. H. 3781.

Musnad+AhmadVol6.jpg
 
However, the opponents disagree with the teachings of the Prophet (saw) in regards to who the 'Ul 'il Amar' are, and thus have placed them in the following two groups:

1) Political Leaders i.e. The Head of State.

2) The Scholars of the religion.
 
__________

Also whats Ironic is Why Al Arnaoot Claim that "Ibn Sa'aid Al Mahdaw'ii" is Weak when it the book: "Ser'at alem al Nobala" it is said he was one of the Strong Followers of Imam Ali (s) and Died in the time of the prophet (pbuh). He also was well very Well known by the people, so I do not see what he Al ar'aoot makes this claim.
 
 
سير أعلام النبلاء/سعيد بن وهب الهمداني

سعيد بن وهب الهمداني

سعيد بن وهب الهمداني الخيواني الكوفي من كبراء شيعة علي

حدث عن علي وابن مسعود ومعاذ بن جبل وخباب

أسلم في حياة النبي 18px-%D8%B5%D9%84%D9%89_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9% ولزم عليا رضي الله عنه حتى كان يقال له القراد للزومه إياه وروى عن سلمان وابن عمر والقاضي شريح روى عنه أبو إسحاق وولده يونس بن أبي إسحاق وطائفة وكان يخضب بالصفرة وكان عريف قومه وحدث عنه أيضا ابنه عبد الرحمن له أحاديث وثقه يحيى بن معين مات في سنة ست وسبعين كذا قلت في تاريخ الإسلام وقال ابن سعد مات بالكوفة في خلافة عبد الملك سنة ست وثمانين

 

 

 

 
 



In addition Abu Hatem Mentioned: 

In His Hadith there is no Mistakes:
In his Chain he Trusted "Thiraq" and "Sadooq"


( ت ق ) : عبيدة بن الأسود بن سعيد الهمدانى الكوفى . اهـ . 
و قال المزى : 
قال أبو حاتم : ما بحديثه بأس . 
و ذكره ابن حباب فى كتاب " الثقات " ، و قال : يعتبر حديثه إذا بين السماع 
و كان فوقه و دونه ثقات . 
روى له الترمذى ، و ابن ماجة . اهـ .

 

Links:

http://www.madinahnet.com/writers1/%D8%B9%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%87-%D8%A8%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%AF-%D8%A8%D9%86-%D8%B3%D8%B9%D9%8A%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D9%85%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%8A-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%88%D9%81%D9%8A

 

 

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?bk_no=1857&pid=652157

 


(salam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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@JUSTHETRUTH

I would like to add:

The prophet (pbuh) Left two things that have complete Authority over us. The First is The book of Allah, and His Ahlulbayt (as). So How can you prefer A So called Chosen Commander over Ahlullbayt (as), And as I mentioned Earlier that The prophet (pbuh) said, that Ali (as) is the Wali of every Believer, So how can you prefer bukhari Over a Hadith which I mentioned that is not only Sahih but Mu[Edited Out]ir?

your second claim was that the Uli al amr were those who where chosen as commanders in the Wars the prophet (pbuh) fought. And non other than Imam Ali (as). You then seem to Switch tactics and go far by saying the Commander of Syriaa'n is the Uli al amr. Therefore now you claim the verse is limited, and obeying Allah and the prophet (pbuh) is limited to that time? The verse no doubted is For All times, therefore you conclusion is false.

Don't forget the "WALI" has Authority over you and he is to be obeyed.

how many Ahadith Where I mentioned that Imam Ali (as) is the wali? you did/Were not even able to refute them.

I would like to see Good Refutations to the 5 points I made Earlier and the Previous reply.

I'm writing a reply so be patient and no I'm not changing my stance I stick with what I've always said that the ulil amr can be anybody with authority good or bad because all it means is "those with authority". We have very limited info on ulil amr.

Tell me why is ulil amr not described as to who he is or who they are??the first authority is described (Allah) the second is described (messenger) but the third is only described as ulil amr!! Why is that why did Allah not tell us who the ulil amr are?? I'm going to go more into this and all your other questions in my reply.

Also when did I say ali a.s is not ulil amr why you lying for. My belief is that anybody who has authority over us including our parents teachers etc should be obeyed until we differ.

IT IS YOU WHO IS MAKING THIS MORE CONFUSING THAN IT ALREADY IS. IF Allah WAS SENDING THIS VERSE DOWN FOR PEOPLE WHO HE WAS APPOINTING THEN HE WOULD HAVE SAID REFER TO ULIL AMR ALSO.

So stop adding your own bits in. It does NOT say refer to ulil amr

I'm writing you a reply so please be patient.

Please stay patient

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:
I'm writing a reply so be patient and no I'm not changing my stance I stick with what I've always said that the ulil amr can be anybody with authority good or bad because all it means is "those with authority". We have very limited info on ulil amr.

 

(1) In the Previous Verse Allah Says We should Refer to them and the prophet (pbuh) In the Good news/bad news. So Of Allah is telling them they Should. Do you think he is going to tell me to hand over the Good news and bad news to those who are in power in an Oppressive manner? thus making your point and claim false.

(2) No, you do not stick to one point, you have previously mentioned Uli al amr to be the three Khalifas Who are appointed by "Shura" and not By Allah nor the prophet (pbuh), and then you state that Uli al amr the Commanders of the Armies which The prophet Appointed In his time. Which We All know is Imam Ali (as). You later than change your claim by going to Sahih al Bukhari by stating the Commander of Syiraan, that the verse came down Specifically for him, Which Contradicts the rest of your point of views becasue he is appointed by the prophet (pbuh) and not By shura. Therefore invalid reasoning ( Your claims ).

     

Statement:

Tell me why is ulil amr not described as to who he is or who they are??the first authority is described (Allah) the second is described (messenger) but the third is only described as ulil amr!! Why is that why did Allah not tell us who the ulil amr are?? I'm going to go more into this and all your other questions in my reply.

(1) you have no right to Question What Allah Mentions or does not mention.

(2) Uli al amr Are many people, Do you expect Allah to mention them All by name in the Quran? When Allah has appointed 124,000 prophets (as), did he mentioned All there names? your Constantly using Invalid excuses which fail to justify your point of view. Can you Answer me this, Why did Allah not tell us how many Rukuat for our prayers in the Quran? He mentioned the times of Prayers, but did not mentioned the five prayers by name, nor how to preform it. I don't understand why you fail to understand this, I will Quote from y previous answer. Please do not tire your self.

 

 

First, this divine book is concise. It contains many general principles but few details, which have been left for the chief commentator, the Holy Prophet, to explain. Allah says: "And whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it; and from whatever he forbids you, keep back." (59:7)

 

Because the names and numbers of the twelve Imams are not mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, some people do not accept them. But on that basis they should reject their own caliphs since no verse of the Holy Qur'an makes any mention of their caliphs, except Ali Bin Abi Talib, or of the Umayyad or Abbasid caliphs, or of the authority vested in the Community to elect a caliph by consensus.

 

Second, if it is necessary to reject anything which is not clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an, then you should reject many of the methods of our worship since there is no mention of their details in the Holy Qur'an.

 

The ritual prayer is perhaps the central act of worship in a Muslim's life. The Holy Prophet emphasized its performance. He said: "The ritual prayer is the pillar and protector of religion. If the ritual prayer is accepted, all other religious performances will be accepted. If it is rejected, all other religious performances will also be rejected."

 

Of course, there is no mention in the Holy Qur'an of the number of units (rak'ats) to be performed for each prayer or any of the other specific details regarding how the prayers are to be performed. Does this mean that we should abandon the prayers? The Holy Qur'an simply says: "Establish salat (prayer). There are no details distinguishing required from optional acts. These were explained by the Holy Prophet. 

 

In the same way other commands have been stated in the Holy Qur'an in principle only. Their details, conditions and relevant instructions were explained by the Holy Prophet. Similarly, concerning the Imamate and caliphate, the Holy Qur'an says only: "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those in authority among you." And we are bound to follow the Holy Prophet's order in this regard in the same way we follow his instructions with regard to the details of the ritual prayers.

 

Muslim commentators, whether Sunni or Shia, cannot make their own interpretations of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet said: "If someone gives his own interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, his place is Hell."

 

Accordingly, every sensible Muslim turns to the real interpreter of the Holy Qur'an, the Holy Prophet. For many years I have studied both Sunni and Shia Qur'anic commentary and hadith but have never come across a single hadith in which the Holy Prophet said that 'uli'l-amr' refers to political rulers. On the other hand, the books of both the Sunnis and Shias contain numerous reports that the Holy Prophet was asked to indicate the meaning of 'uli'l-amr' and he replied that 'uli'l-amr' referred to Ali and his eleven descendants. I will present only a few of these numerous hadith which have been narrated through sources accepted by Sunnis.

 

Statement:   
Also when did I say ali a.s is not ulil amr why you lying for. My belief is that anybody who has authority over us including our parents teachers etc should be obeyed until we differ. 

 

(1) According to your statements In previous post, in your stance Ali (as) cannot be Uli al amr. Can you please tell me when he actually Governed the Ummah? From what time to time? and How Abu bakr came after that? If your claiming even our parents Are Uli al amr & teachers, then what if they are wrong in what they teach or give? you again fail to justify this point of view, the verse does not claim that the Uli al amr make mistakes, but the people if "They" differ in anything, they should go back to the Qruan and the prophet (s) and see what he says. 

(2) I did not lie. Please Quote That statement where I lied?



Statement:

IT IS YOU WHO IS MAKING THIS MORE CONFUSING THAN IT ALREADY IS. IF Allah WAS SENDING THIS VERSE DOWN FOR PEOPLE WHO HE WAS APPOINTING THEN HE WOULD HAVE SAID REFER TO ULIL AMR ALSO.

  

(1) Again you Question the verse Unjustifiably. In the verse We ordered To obey them, and they themselves have knowledge of the Quran and the prophet (pbuh) as I proved Earlier:

A. hadith al Mazila

B.Hadith Al Ghadeer.
C. HAdith AL Taqalain.
D. Hadith To every Nation There is a guide. 

 

 

Also mentioned The previous verses:
 

 

002.124
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: “I will make thee an Imam to the Nations.” He pleaded: “And also (Imams) from my offspring!” He answered: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.”

 

 

021.073

And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practice regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).    

 

 

verse 24 of Surah Sajdah verse 24:

And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

 

 

[4:59 YUSUF ALI:]

YUSUF ALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

 

 

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

 

Your Wali are Allah, His Messenger, and those who establish prayer and pay charity, whilst they bow As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph. 

Surah Al Maida verses 54-56

 

 

Say (Prophet Muhammad) to mankind, 'If you really love Allah, then follow me. Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, and Allah is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful.' - Noble Quran, 3:31

 

Say (Prophet Muhammad), 'Follow that which has been sent down to you from your Lord, and follow not any guardian other than that.'

- Noble Quran, 7:3

 
And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses. No choice have they in any matter. Glorified be Allah, and Exalted above all that they associate as partners with Him. - Noble Quran, 28:68

 


statement:

So stop adding your own bits in. It does NOT say refer to ulil amr
 

(1) To refer to the prophet (pbuh) we must Refer to Ahlulbayt and the Quran.
(2) Where did I add? please Quote my statement.
 

 

(salam)
 

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

I'd like to start of by saying that if you had ONE precise verse from quran regarding Imamate of your 12 imams you wouldn't have answered with such a lengthy answer.

I will show you sunni articles of faith and how I can get you precise verse(s) for each article of faith as surah 3:7 says. I will show you how we don't use verses of history or unspecific verses to prove our foundations of faith.

1. Tawhid- surah 3:18

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

DO I NEED 100 HADITH TO TELL ME THAT Allah IS ONE??? ....NO.

Now I have a precise verse for tawhid I can go to hadith for additional information.

CAN ME AND YOU DIFFER ON WHETHER Allah (swt) IS THE ONLY ONE GOD?? NO.

2. Angels-

“Say: the ANGEL OF DEATH put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls, then shall you be brought back to your Lord.” (Quran 32:11)

“Say: whoever is an enemy to GABRIEL for he brings down the (revelation) to your heart by God’s will confirming what was before it and a guidance and and glad tidings for the believers (Quran 2:97)

Surah 35:1

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the ANGELS MESSENGERS having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

DO I NEED HADITH TO PROVE THAT ANGELS EXIST??? NO. NOT ONLY ARE WE TOLD THEY EXIST BUT WE ARE TOLD THAT THERE ARE ANGELS WHO TAKE THE SOUL AND ANGELS WHO ARE MESSENGERS AND WE ARE ALSO TOLD THAT THEY HAVE WINGS TWO THREE OR FOUR.

now and only now can we go to hadith for additional information.

Surah 2:98

Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and GABRIAL and MICHAEL - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

NOW HERE Allah (swt) HAS MENTIONED THE NAME OF TWO ANGELS WHEREAS IF YOUR IMAMS WERE SO IMPORTANT AND WERE AN USUL THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN MENTIONED BY NAME.

The excuse shia give that names are not needed because not all prophets (a.s) are mentioned, well this is not a good enough excuse because atleast some prophets (a.s) are mentioned whereas your imams are not.

Never mind names Allah (swt) hasn't once said it in the quran that he will send imams for this ummah

3. The books of Allah (swt)

"Verily, We did send down the TORAH [to Musa], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah’s Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the TORAH after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah'S BOOK, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers." (5:44)

"And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Eesaa, son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the TORAH that had come before him. And We gave him the Injeel, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tauraat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for the Allah-fearing." (5:46)

"[it is] He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad «peace be upon him») with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the TORAH and the INJEEL. Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind, And He sent down the Furqaan (The Criterion) [of judgment between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]." (3:3-4)

36:1

to top

Sahih International

Ya, Seen.

36:2

to top

Sahih International

By the wise QURAN.

36:3

to top

Sahih International

Indeed you, [O Muhammad], are from among the messengers,

36:4

to top

Sahih International

On a straight path.

36:5

to top

Sahih International

[This is] a revelation of the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,

Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of PSALMS) (ZABOOR).7

DO I NEED TO GO TO HADITH TO KNOW THE NAMES OF THE BOOKS?? NO.

Now I can go to hadith for additional information.

NUBUWWAH AND IMAMAH ARE BOTH USUL AD DIN (according to shia) YET WE HAVE NAMES OF PROPHETS BUT NOT IMAMS.

How nice!!!

4. Nubuwwah

Aal Imraan 3: 144; Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before God has proved the men who fought for Him and endured with fortitude? You used to wish for death before you met it, and now you have seen what is it like. MUHAMMAD is no more than an APOSTLE: other apostles have passed away before him. If he die or be slain, will you recant? He that recants will do no harm to God. But God will recompense the thankful.

Al-Ahzaab 33: 40; – MUHAMMAD is the father of no man among you. He is the APOSTLE of God and the Seal of the Prophets. Surely God has knowledge of all things.

Al-Fatah 48: 29 – MUHAMMAD IS GODS APOSTLE. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelieves but merciful to one another. You see them worshipping on their knees, seeking grace of God and His good will. Their makes are on their faces, the traces of their prostrations Thus are they described in the Torah and in the Gospel: they are like the seed which puts forth its shoot and strengthens it, so that it rises stout and firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers. Through them He seeks to enrage the unbelievers. Yet to those of them who will embrace the Faith and do good works God has promised forgiveness and a rich recomense.

DO YOU HAVE A VERSE WHERE Allah (swt) SAYS YOUR 12 IMAMS ARE HIS IMAMS BY NAME.

5. Yawm al qiyamah

Please read surah qiyamah

NOW WE HAVE VERSES REGARDING YAWM AL QIYAMAH WE CAN NOW GO TO HADITH.

6. Qadr

Nor can a soul die except by Allah'S LEAVE, THE TERM FIXED AS BY WRITNG. If any do desire a reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that (serve us with) gratitude.

Quran 3:145

DO I NEED 100 HADITH TO PROVE QADR?? NO.

Now we have a precise verse talking about QADR we can now go to hadith for additional information.

NOW THE QUESTION IS CAN YOU FIND VERSES LIKE THIS IN QURAN FOR IMAMATE??

LIKE I HAVE SAID TO YOU A MILLION TIMES IF THERE WAS A PRECISE VERSE FOR YOUR 12 IMAMS SUNNI WOULD BE KAAFIR NO QUESTIONS ASKED, BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE REJECTING Allah ( swt) ORDER.

WHY WHY WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR AYATOLLAHS DONT CALL US KAAFIR??

BECAUSE THEY KNOW DEEP INSIDE THEIR HEARTS THAT THERE IS NO PRECISE VERSE MENTIONING ANYTHING OFF Allah (swt) SENDING IMAMS FOR THIS UMMAH...

... AND NOT BECAUSE THEY DO IT OUT OF THE KINDNESS OF THEIR HEART!!!!!

On a serious note i really don't understand why Allah (swt) wouldn't talk about shia 12 imams if they are an usul on the ummah.

The whole reason why Allah (swt) has mentioned the usul's precisely is so that nobody on the day of judgment can have an excuse for not believing in any usul's.

ONCE WE HAVE A PRECISE VERSE FOR AN USUL THEN AND ONLY THEN CAN WE GO TO HADITH

We have verses in quran where Allah (swt) condemns those who disobey Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh) but then why not say the same for ulil amr since he was to be next in line after prophet (pbuh)

Also let's say for avoiding a longer debate that the differing in surah 4:59 is NOT with ulil amr and it is only between normal believers, then tell me why Allah ( swt) has not mentioned referring to ulil amr?? In the second part of the verse.

Like it or not you have nothing regarding ulil amr. Let me point out a few points.

1. Ulil amr is not precisely described as to who he is

2. If we differ refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger (pbuh)!! Well why not ulil amr since he is the one appointed to refer to ( according to shia). The verse has to be precise and your explanation for this is not even close to precise.

3. There is no verse condemning Muslims who may differ with ulil amr, like their are verses of condemnation for disobeying Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

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statement:

1. Tawhid- surah 3:18 

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

DO I NEED 100 HADITH TO TELL ME THAT Allah IS ONE??? ....NO. Now I have a precise verse for tawhid I can go to hadith for additional information. CAN ME AND YOU DIFFER ON WHETHER Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì IS THE ONLY ONE GOD?? NO.

 

 

(1) In this Topic My dear friend We did not object whether Allah is One or not. the Main topic of this issue is the Identity of Uli Al amr and Who they are. We have been talking about this For a every longtime Now. No doubt There is No God But God and Prophet Muhammad is his Messenger. It is very Rude of you to make the topic Look like as if I question the Oneness of Allah (S.W.T) can you please state One Quote where I did so? Can you please give one statement from the previous Posts Where I have made an Objection to such? I advise you stop changing the Name of this topic. 

(2) For purpose For Specific reason did you mention this verse?

(3) And now that you have mentioned this Beautiful verse can you please tell me who are "Those of Knowledge" ? as you mentioned the verse above?

 

  

 

 

 

Statement:
 

2. Angels- 

“Say: the ANGEL OF DEATH put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls, then shall you be brought back to your Lord.” (Quran 32:11)

“Say: whoever is an enemy to GABRIEL for he brings down the (revelation) to your heart by God’s will confirming what was before it and a guidance and and glad tidings for the believers (Quran 2:97)

Surah 35:1

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the ANGELS MESSENGERS having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

DO I NEED HADITH TO PROVE THAT ANGELS EXIST??? NO. NOT ONLY ARE WE TOLD THEY EXIST BUT WE ARE TOLD THAT THERE ARE ANGELS WHO TAKE THE SOUL AND ANGELS WHO ARE MESSENGERS AND WE ARE ALSO TOLD THAT THEY HAVE WINGS TWO THREE OR FOUR.

now and only now can we go to hadith for additional information.

 

 

 

I again fail to understand What your trying put together here. Of course I believe in angels. Can you please give and state/Quote where I said I do not believe in Angels? No doubt that Angles are given certain Duties in this world and they must them selves obey Allah and the messenger, But you seem to Fail to keep your point of view together you put an Emphasis on what the name of Uli al amr was not mentioned, you again not only ignored my previous answer on this issue but you in fact tackle me with Something that has nothing to do with topic. This does not prove your stance by any point so far as we have many verse which do not mention the prophets names for example:

     

 

 

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ آمِنُوا بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ قَالُوا نُؤْمِنُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَيَكْفُرُونَ بِمَا وَرَاءَهُ وَهُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا مَعَهُمْ ۗ قُلْ فَلِمَ تَقْتُلُونَ أَنبِيَاءَ اللَّهِ مِن قَبْلُ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ
 

And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?" (2:91)

(1) Why was the Prophets Who Bani Isael killed there names were not mentioned? how do we know if it was not Prophet Mosa (as)? (na'azo Billah )



also in another verse:

 

 

ضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الذِّلَّةُ أَيْنَ مَا ثُقِفُوا إِلَّا بِحَبْلٍ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَحَبْلٍ مِّنَ النَّاسِ وَبَاءُوا بِغَضَبٍ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَسْكَنَةُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَانُوا يَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ وَيَقْتُلُونَ الْأَنبِيَاءَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُوا يَعْتَدُونَ

 

Sahih International

They have been put under humiliation [by Allah ] wherever they are overtaken, except for a covenant from Allah and a rope from the Muslims. And they have drawn upon themselves anger from Allah and have been put under destitution. That is because they disbelieved in the verses of Allah and killed the prophets without right. That is because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed.

(3:112)

 

 

(2) We find here again Allah (SubahanhoWaTallah) as only Said: "prophets" and did not Mention them by name? Don't you think it was necessary? 

 

Again now in a Another verse:
 

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ اذْكُرُوا نِعْمَةَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ جَعَلَ فِيكُمْ أَنبِيَاءَ وَجَعَلَكُم مُّلُوكًا وَآتَاكُم مَّا لَمْ يُؤْتِ أَحَدًا مِّنَ الْعَالَمِين

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember the favor of Allah upon you when He appointed among you prophets and made you possessors and gave you that which He had not given anyone among the worlds. (5:20)
 

 

(3) Again Prohet Musa (as) did not mention the names of the prophets ( Allah did not mention the names of the prophet (s) Who are appointed among them.

 

We take a look at anther important verse:

 

 

 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
 
 
Sahih International
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (2:30)

 

(4) Here we Find that Allah did not mention and Reveal to the angels the Identity of Who will be the Successive Authority on earth. Lets not forget he Tells them I know that which you do not know. So do you not think it was necessary for Allah to mention them by name? or even Mention them Characteristics? this Contradicts your false claims on why he did not mention those of Uli al amr.|
 

In another very Important verse:

 

 

 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ
Sahih International
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]. (5:55)

       

 

(5) We all know this verse cam down on Imam Ali (as) I proved this to you in this topic and the previous topic "Appointing a Successor" Yet Allah Did not mention Him By name At Allah. So why not by his name? can you please explain Why?
 

 

 

_________________


Statement:

Surah 2:98

Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and GABRIAL and MICHAEL - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.

NOW HERE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì HAS MENTIONED THE NAME OF TWO ANGELS WHEREAS IF YOUR IMAMS WERE SO IMPORTANT AND WERE AN USUL THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN MENTIONED BY NAME.

The excuse shia give that names are not needed because not all prophets (a.s) are mentioned, well this is not a good enough excuse because atleast some prophets (a.s) are mentioned whereas your imams are not.

Never mind names Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì hasn't once said it in the quran that he will send imams for this ummah



 

(1) you are Falsely mistaken you again fail to understand, Comprehend, or even reply to my previous Reply on this issue. the reason Why you emphasis on names is because after your previous claims have been rejected you have nothing but to claim something from the Quran. I would like to ask you again Why was Abu bakr names or the other Khalfias not mentioned yet to you as a Sunni they are so important because they are the ones who guide the Ummah of the prophet (s) yet whats so Ironic, they have not been mentioned as Khalifas in Hadith nor Quran, While Imam Ali (s) is mentioned in verse 5:55 and many more and many Ahadith ( I mentioned In appointing a successor ). Can you please give me one verse where an Imam is appointed by Shura? and explain how the Affairs of Allah can be Determined by The Fallible man? (society)? please.

Did you not read the verse I mentioned Earlier on:


 

 

(1) And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a Caliph, (2:30) 

(2) And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses. No choice have they in any matter. Glorified be Allah, and Exalted above all that they associate as partners with Him. - Noble Quran, 28:68

 

 

Therefore making the Concept of "shura" it self Invalid. So I don't Understand Why Till today you bring the same Question Again and Again with useless constancy.


Can you please give me A verse Where Shura is Mentioned for this Ummah?


 

 

You than Mentioned the verses On the books and stated:

DO I NEED TO GO TO HADITH TO KNOW THE NAMES OF THE BOOKS?? NO. 
 

And than you stated:

 

NUBUWWAH AND IMAMAH ARE BOTH USUL AD DIN (according to shia) YET WE HAVE NAMES OF PROPHETS BUT NOT IMAMS.

 

And than you continued On with Uslol al deen and why Imamah is not mentioned When it has. but you blindly ignore it:

Do my dear Brother, It must be noted that although the names of the pure Imams (s) are not specified in the Qur`an, the Prophet (s) did assert their names, especially the name of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s). A very clear instance of such assertion occurs in hadith Ghadir, which is considered the official announcement of the caliphate of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s). Regarding the question of transmission, this hadith is mutawatir [i.e. it has been narrated through so many lines of transmission that it can be accepted without doubt.] and its content reveals clear evidence for the Imamate of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s).

 

Moreover as I mentioned Earlier, there are several verses in the Qur`an that pertain to the status of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), the most important of which is verse 55 of Surat al-Ma`idah;

 

“Your guardian is only Allah, His Apostle, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.”

 

In books of exegesis and history, both among the Shi’ite and Sunni sources, it has been pointed out that this verse was revealed after the event in which Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s)gave his ring to a poor beggar as charity while he was bowing down in prayer, and so this verse refers to no other than Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s). Thus, although Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s)has not been mentioned in the Qur`an by name, there are evident references to him.

 

But as to why the Imams (s) have not been mentioned by name, at least two answers could be propounded.

 

Firstly, the normal pattern of the Qur`an is to deal with issues in a general tone, providing the general principles and rules, without getting into the explanation of the minute details. This is the method the Qur`an takes up in many instances and it is for this reason that when Imam Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (s) was asked about this question, he replied that, “It is the same case with the daily prayer, the zakat, and hajj: Allah has mentioned only their general rules in the Qur`an but has not elucidated the details. It was the Prophet (s) who expressed the precise method of carrying out such duties and their related details. In the same vein, regarding the question of succession, the Prophet (s) himself specified the names of ‘Ali and his household (s) as his successors and so there was no need for their names to have been expressed in the Qur`an itself.

 

Secondly, in such an issue, where there was a good chance of opposition, prudence necessitated that the Qur`an mention the issue indirectly and through allusions for there was the possibility that opposition to the issue of Imamate might lead to opposition to the Qur`an and the main core of Islam, which was certainly not in the interest of the Muslims. That is, if there were a verse specifying the succession of ‘Ali (s), the opponents would have distorted it out of their opposition to him, and this would have violated the value of Islam and the Qur`an as the final religion and the eternal and divine book. For, it should be borne in mind that one of the ways by which the Qur`an could be preserved—for Allah (awj) has asserted, “Indeed We have sent down the Reminder [i.e. the Qur`an] and indeed We will preserve it. (Surat al-Hijr (15), Verse 9:)—is to remove the natural motives for opposition and distortion.

 

Hence, the Qur`an, firstly, refrains from expressing the names of the Imams (s); and secondly, places the verses that are related to the question of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s) successorship, the Verse of Tabligh (which regards the official announcement of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib’s (s) successorship), and the Verse of Tathir (which regards the infallibility of the Prophet’s household) between other apparently unrelated verses so as to diminish, as much as possible, the motives for distortion and in so doing secure the Qur`an against all possible attacks.

 

 

 

 

Statement:
Ulil amr is not precisely described as to who he is


(1) its not he, its They. They are not one person.
(2) I mentioned why in the above.


Statment:

If we differ refer to Allah ( swt) and messenger (pbuh)!! Well why not ulil amr since he is the one appointed to refer to ( according to shia). The verse has to be precise and your explanation for this is not even close to precise.

 
 

(1) We refer to the Quran and the prophet (s).
​(2) In referring to the prophet You must Refer to Ahlulbayt (as): I gave you an Answer on this issue in the hadiths Listed in the previous post before this, lets not forget the Hadith Ali is the gate and prophet Muhammad (s) is the City of knowledge. 

​(3) The Imams have knowledge of the prophet (s). And the prophet (s) has left Two Khalifas: The book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt (s). Who you must refer to them if you were to refer to the prophet (s) 

(4) you claim my Explanation is not precise When you have not proven your point in:

A. Quran.
B. Hadith.
C. Tareehk

 

Your Response Are of the same in "Appointing a Successor" and "Who are the Blind" They are Repeated many times and you yet have not Given a Good reason to Justify your point of view.

statement:

There is no verse condemning Muslims who may differ with ulil amr, like their are verses of condemnation for disobeying Allah  and his messenger (s)

 

​(1) Disobeying Who the prophet (s) Appoints Means Disobeying Him, and Disobeying the prophet (s) means Disobeying Allah has I mentioned in a Previous post of the Hadith in Mustadrak al Hakim and other sources on the prophet (s) Commanding to obey Imam Ali (s).

(2) If The prophet (s) said I leave in you two things: The book of Allah and my Ahlulbayt (s), Does that not mean if we only Hold on To the book of Allah and Exclude Ahlulbayt (s), does that not mean we are Disobeying What the prophet (s) said? If we Do not Hold on to Ahlulbayt (s) does that not mean we are Disobeying what the prophet (s)? Therefore Disobeying Allah (S.W.T)?

 

    
 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Allah started off by mentioning the command and order, regarding obedience towards him and his Messenger, so he could set down the standard and level and to put down the limit of obedience, he wants towards the Ulul Amre from the people. This is why Allah started off with "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those who are worthy of giving command/orders amongst you". Now Allah has made it absolutely clear, to what standard, level and limit he wants obedience towards the Ulul Amre. The sequence and order tells you that. Now brother just the truth has made a point that, obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is unconditional, where as obedience towards the Ulul Amre is conditional. How??? Where are and what are the conditions??? To be continued.

and the true believer will respond "we listen and we obey". They have no problem accepting this command whole-heartedly.

BUT the not-so-true believer, will have a hard time accepting the command. here's why:

1. some disagreed with the holy prophet in some matters (proven historically)

2. some, due to envy/greed/hatred, couldn't accept ulil-amr's authority over them.

So, the rest of the ayat beginning with "then if you disagree about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day;." is referring to these not-so-true-believer (about the previous command). Wallahu a'lam.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

Anybody can see that you're running away from the truth. I GAVE YOU SOO MANY PRECISE verses regarding usul ad din and you give me what?? HADITH.... AGAIN.

Why is it when it only comes to Imamate you run straight to hadith and if you do go to quran YOU GIVE ME VERSES THAT MENTION NOTHING ABOUT Allah (swt) SENDING IMAMS.

Have you seen how precise the verses are the I gave you regarding the other usul ad dins?? BRING ONE JUST LIKE THEM FOR IMAMATE.

1. I was using tawhid and the other usul ad dins as examples as to how precise verses have to be in order to call them usul ad din as we are told in surah 3:7. Of course I know you believe in Allah and Allah alone. It was just an example.

2. Refer to answer 1

3. Your imams, zaydi imams, Ismaili imams, Bohari imams, sunni imams, wahabbi imams me you my dad my grandad my uncle....... I don't know you tell me. Personally I can't see anybody mentioned there.

YOU SAID

again fail to understand What your trying put together here. Of course I believe in angels. Can you please give and state/Quote where I said I do not believe in Angels?

MY ANSWER

refer to answer 1

YOU SAID

But you seem to Fail to keep your point of view together you put an Emphasis on what the name of Uli al amr was not mentioned, you again not only ignored my previous answer on this issue but you in fact tackle me with Something that has nothing to do with topic.

MY ANSWER

I did not ignore you, you've ignored me. I will repeat what I said...AGAIN.

Nubuwwah and imamah are both usul ad din (according to shia) why have SOME prophets been mentioned by name but not a single IMAM. ALSO CAN YOU GIVE ME ONE PRECISE VERSE WHERE Allah (swt) says he will send imams for this ummah.

YOU SAID

This does not prove your stance by any point so far as we have many verse which do not mention the prophets names for example

MY ANSWER

More like you're running away from the truth. Re read my above answer.

YOU SAID

(4) Here we Find that Allah did not mention and Reveal to the angels the Identity of Who will be the Successive Authority on earth. Lets not forget he Tells them I know that which you do not know. So do you not think it was necessary for Allah to mention them by name? or even Mention them Characteristics? this Contradicts your false claims on why he did not mention those of Uli al amr.|

MY ANSWER

I don't enjoy repeating myself but il make you an exception.

RE READ MY FIRST POST AND LOOK AT HOW PRECISE THEM VERSES ARE.

HAVE I USED A SINGLE VERSE REGARDING HISTORY??? NO

HAVE I USED A SINGLE UNSPECIFIC VERSE?? NO.

THEM VERSES ARE AS CLEAR AS DAY.

YOU SAID

(5) We all know this verse cam down on Imam Ali I proved this to you in this topic and the previous topic "Appointing a Successor" Yet Allah Did not mention Him By name At Allah. So why not by his name? can you please explain Why?

MY ANSWER

You still don't get it do you??

Right here we go.... AGAIN.

Each verse I gave you was precise eg; the prophet was described as an apostle. Allah told us he is one. We got told names of books etc etc.

THE WHOLE REASON Allah ( swt) IS PRECISE WITH USUL AD DIN VERSES ARE SO THAT NOBODY CAN CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE VERSE BY USING HADITH. BECAUSE Allah (swt) KNEW THAT SECTS WOULD BE CREATED AND WE WOULD DIFFER IN HADITH. NASIBIS COULD EASILY CLAIM THAT THIS VERSE CAME FOR SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO NAMES MENTIONED.

Also the word used is WALI which has many meanings and anybody can interpretate it as they like. SO I AM SORRY THIS VERSE IS UN SPECIFIC.

The quran was sent for ALL the ummah and not just sunni and shia.

YOU POINTED OUT TWO VERSES.

(1) And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a Caliph, (2:30)

(2) And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses. No choice have they in any matter. Glorified be Allah, and Exalted above all that they associate as partners with Him. - Noble Quran, 28:68

Verse number 1...errrr sorry buh I can't see where it precisely says Allah (swt) will send imams for this ummah??

Also that "caliph" was a prophet a.s

Verse number two.

Stop mis translating verses this has nothing to do with Allah ( swt) choosing imams

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/tafsir/2-196-203/

(28:68). CHOOSING means JUDGING and LEGISLATING or else it is general in meaning which includes judging and legislating too.

SO SORRY YOU FAIL AGAIN.

CAN YOU OR CANT YOU BRING ME A PRECISE VERSE WHERE Allah (swt) says he will send imams after prophet (pbuh).

Look at how to precise the verses are that I gave you for sunni usul ad din. Is there anyone even a KAAFIR who can dispute me regarding tawhid, nubuwwah etc etc.

YOU SAID

Therefore making the Concept of "shura" it self Invalid. So I don't Understand Why Till today you bring the same Question Again and Again with useless constancy.

MY ANSWER

No. You're concept of imamah is invalid. Until you can prove to me Allah ( swt) said he would send imams for this ummah.

Since Allah (swt) never said he would send "imams" then the only option left is to have a leader because every nation needs a leader.

YOU SAID

Secondly, in such an issue, where there was a good chance of opposition, prudence necessitated that the Qur`an mention the issue indirectly and through allusions for there was the possibility that opposition to the issue of Imamate might lead to opposition to the Qur`an and the main core of Islam, which was certainly not in the interest of the Muslims.

MY ANSWER

Oh my god. Is this your final leg to stand on. So Allah ( swt) never mentioned names because he thought his book would become corrupted!!!!!!! When he himself promised to protect it. What a desperate excuse that is.

TELL ME ONE THING BEFORE YOU START ACCUSING SAHABA.

THE HADITHS REGARDING THE VIRTUES OF IMAM ALI A.S HAVE BEEN PRESERVED BUT FOR SOME REASON YOU BELIEVE THE QURAN WOULDNT HAVE WHEN Allah ( swt) HIMSELF PROMISES THAT GE (swt) WILL PROTECT IT.

....and for the record I'm doing this because I'm trying to show you how you can't use the verse 4:59 to prove the convept of imamat, because it is unspecific.

If the verse was a precise verse we would have been told WHO were the ulil amr and we would also have been told to REFER to the ulil amr.

Can you see any loop holes in the verses I have you for our usul's

NOW GET ME ONE PRECISE VERSE

Ps.. Stop using that hadith of AHLE BAYT and quran.

If this verse talks about Imamate then bibi fatimah r.a was also AHLE BAYT does this make her an infallible imam.

There are no restrictions in that hadith as to who are and who arnt the AHLE BAYT the prophet (pbuh) is referring to

Edited by Just the truth

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Brother just the truth, lets take a look at your questions and points. You want a precise verse from the Quran, which clearly says, that Allah will send Imaams after the Messenger (pbuh), then you probably would want another verse, which would say that, Allah will send twelve Imaams after the Messenger (pbuh).

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Brother just the truth, lets take a look at your questions and points. You want a precise verse from the Quran, which clearly says, that Allah will send Imaams after the Messenger (pbuh), then you probably would want another verse, which would say that, Allah will send twelve Imaams after the Messenger (pbuh).

Just one verse where Allah (swt) says he will send imams after prophet (pbuh).

Usul ad din are in precise verses like we are told in surah 3:7

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statement:

Anybody can see that you're running away from the truth. I GAVE YOU SOO MANY PRECISE verses regarding usul ad din and you give me what?? HADITH.... AGAIN. Why is it when it only comes to Imamate you run straight to hadith and if you do go to quran YOU GIVE ME VERSES THAT MENTION NOTHING ABOUT Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì SENDING IMAMS.

Hadith? I am sorry, but I mentioned verse Above Which are very Clear on Obey Imam Ali (s) Such as 5:55 and the verse Of All Appointing a Khalifa on earth. What was your response to them? I find it very Disappointing that you claim I Depend on Hadith. When I actually Mentioned many verse right above me Concerning Imamah. I think it is you who is Running Away and not I, I also Noticed you Minimized the post by Ignoring the Important points I made I do now know what your Complaining about. I think the viewers Will be see very Clearly Who is Running Away my dear friend. You fail To understand That to Explain a verse you cannot Competently understand it without knowing:

 

1) Why it came down.
2) Who it came down on.
3) What the prophet or Ahlulbayt (a.s) have said Regrading it.

Brother please Don't Lie. Right above everyone Can See I mentioned verse On Imamah. Where you have not even been able to prove the concept of Shura and its purpose, I yet Wait a response With clear proof on this issue. By the way its Not Polite to Accuse of of Such when you very well know your now Answering anything.

 

Statement:

Have you seen how precise the verses are the I gave you regarding the other usul ad dins?? BRING ONE JUST LIKE THEM FOR IMAMATE.
 

 

(1) And remember when your Lord said to the angels, 'Verily, I am going to place [for mankind] a successor (khalifah) on the earth.' (2:30)

(2) O David! Verily We have placed you as a successor (khalifah) on the earth, so judge between men with truth and justice, and follow not your desires, for they will mislead you from the path of Allah. (38:26) 

 

(3) And remember when the Lord of Abraham tried him with certain commands which he fulfilled. Allah said to him, 'Verily I am going to make you a leader (imam) for mankind.' Abraham said, 'And (what about) my offspring?' Allah said, 'My providence (does not) includes the wrongdoers.' (2:124)
    

And I would like to Categorize the following to make my stance clear:
 

Seven Categories of Verses of Allah’s Government in the Quran

 

(1) The Verses of Kingdom:

 

Say, 'O Allah! Possessor of the Kingdom! You give the Kingdom to whom You will, and You take the Kingdom from whom You will.' (3:26)

 

Say, 'I seek refuge with Allah, the Lord of Mankind, the King of Mankind, the God of Mankind..." (, 114:1-3)

 

To Allah belongs the domain of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and to Him will all return. (5:18)

____________________________

 

(2) The Verses of Government:

 

The decision (hukm) is only for Allah. He declares the truth, and He is the best of judges. (6:57)

 

Surely, His is the judgment, and He is the swiftest in taking account. (6:62)

 

And in whatsoever you differ, the decision thereof is with Allah. He is the ruling judge. (42:10)

 

(3) The Verses of Command:

 

Say, 'Indeed, the command ('amr) belongs entirely to Allah.' (3:154)

 

Surely, His is the creation and the command. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of Mankind. (7:54)

 

But the decision of all things is certainly with Allah. (13:31)

 

It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any opinion in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in plain error. (33:36)

 

(4) The Verses of Guardianship:

 

Verily, your guardian (wali) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers—those who perform the prayers and give zakat(alms) while bowing down (ruku). (5:55)

 

Commentators unanimously agree that this particular verse refers to Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib who gave his ring to a beggar while in the state of bowing (ruku) in the course of his prayer.

 

The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, is that they say, 'We hear and we obey,' and such are the prosperous ones. (24:51)

 

We sent no messenger but to be obeyed by Allah's leave. (4:64)

 

By your Lord, they can have no faith until they make you (Prophet Muhammad) a judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decision and accept it with full submission. (4:65)

 

(5) The Verses of Following:

 

Say (Prophet Muhammad) to mankind, 'If you really love Allah, then follow me. Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, and Allah is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful.' (3:31)

 

Say (Prophet Muhammad), 'Follow that which has been sent down to you from your Lord, and follow not any guardian other than that.'(7:3)

 

(6) The Verse of Choosing: 

 

And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses. No choice have they in any matter. Glorified be Allah, and Exalted above all that they associate as partners with Him. (28:68)
 

(7) The Verse of Judgment:

 

And Allah judges with truth, while those whom they invoke besides Him cannot judge anything. Certainly Allah is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing. (40:20)

 

________

 

 

Statement:
I was using tawhid and the other usul ad dins as examples as to how precise verses have to be in order to call them usul ad din as we are told in surah 3:7. Of course I know you believe in Allah and Allah alone. It was just an example.

 

​And Who are you to judge Precisely What the verses mean? I have Mentioned The verses above concerning Khilafa. have I not Answered this before on a previous post? You seem to rather Ignore and restate your Claims over and over? Why So? 



Statement:

Your imams, zaydi imams, Ismaili imams, Bohari imams, sunni imams, wahabbi imams me you my dad my grandad my uncle....... I don't know you tell me. Personally I can't see anybody mentioned there.
 

Excuse me? Is this an Answer,Insult, Statement? can you please explain? 


Statement:

I did not ignore you, you've ignored me. I will repeat what I said...AGAIN.  Nubuwwah and imamah are both usul ad din (according to shia) why have SOME prophets been mentioned by name but not a single IMAM. ALSO CAN YOU GIVE ME ONE PRECISE VERSE WHERE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says he will send imams for this ummah.

 

I quote My self Again:
 

 

First, this divine book is concise. It contains many general principles but few details, which have been left for the chief commentator, the Holy Prophet, to explain. Allah says: "And whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it; and from whatever he forbids you, keep back." (59:7)

 

Because the names and numbers of the twelve Imams are not mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, some people do not accept them. But on that basis they should reject their own caliphs since no verse of the Holy Qur'an makes any mention of their caliphs, except Ali Bin Abi Talib, or of the Umayyad or Abbasid caliphs, or of the authority vested in the Community to elect a caliph by consensus.

 

Second, if it is necessary to reject anything which is not clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an, then you should reject many of the methods of our worship since there is no mention of their details in the Holy Qur'an.

 

The ritual prayer is perhaps the central act of worship in a Muslim's life. The Holy Prophet emphasized its performance. He said: "The ritual prayer is the pillar and protector of religion. If the ritual prayer is accepted, all other religious performances will be accepted. If it is rejected, all other religious performances will also be rejected."

 

Of course, there is no mention in the Holy Qur'an of the number of units (rak'ats) to be performed for each prayer or any of the other specific details regarding how the prayers are to be performed. Does this mean that we should abandon the prayers? The Holy Qur'an simply says: "Establish salat (prayer). There are no details distinguishing required from optional acts. These were explained by the Holy Prophet. 

 

In the same way other commands have been stated in the Holy Qur'an in principle only. Their details, conditions and relevant instructions were explained by the Holy Prophet. Similarly, concerning the Imamate and caliphate, the Holy Qur'an says only: "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those in authority among you." And we are bound to follow the Holy Prophet's order in this regard in the same way we follow his instructions with regard to the details of the ritual prayers.

 

Muslim commentators, whether Sunni or Shia, cannot make their own interpretations of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet said: "If someone gives his own interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, his place is Hell."

 

Accordingly, every sensible Muslim turns to the real interpreter of the Holy Qur'an, the Holy Prophet. For many years I have studied both Sunni and Shia Qur'anic commentary and hadith but have never come across a single hadith in which the Holy Prophet said that 'uli'l-amr' refers to political rulers. On the other hand, the books of both the Sunnis and Shias contain numerous reports that the Holy Prophet was asked to indicate the meaning of 'uli'l-amr' and he replied that 'uli'l-amr' referred to Ali and his eleven descendants. I will present only a few of these numerous hadith which have been narrated through sources accepted by Sunnis.

and:

 

 

And than you continued On with Uslol al deen and why Imamah is not mentioned When it has. but you blindly ignore it:


Do my dear Brother, It must be noted that although the names of the pure Imams (s) are not specified in the Qur`an, the Prophet (s) did assert their names, especially the name of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s). A very clear instance of such assertion occurs in hadith Ghadir, which is considered the official announcement of the caliphate of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s). Regarding the question of transmission, this hadith is mutawatir [i.e. it has been narrated through so many lines of transmission that it can be accepted without doubt.] and its content reveals clear evidence for the Imamate of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s).

 

Moreover as I mentioned Earlier, there are several verses in the Qur`an that pertain to the status of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (ع), the most important of which is verse 55 of Surat al-Ma`idah;

 

“Your guardian is only Allah, His Apostle, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.”

 

In books of exegesis and history, both among the Shi’ite and Sunni sources, it has been pointed out that this verse was revealed after the event in which Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s)gave his ring to a poor beggar as charity while he was bowing down in prayer, and so this verse refers to no other than Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s). Thus, although Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s)has not been mentioned in the Qur`an by name, there are evident references to him.

 

But as to why the Imams (s) have not been mentioned by name, at least two answers could be propounded.

 

Firstly, the normal pattern of the Qur`an is to deal with issues in a general tone, providing the general principles and rules, without getting into the explanation of the minute details. This is the method the Qur`an takes up in many instances and it is for this reason that when Imam Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (s) was asked about this question, he replied that, “It is the same case with the daily prayer, the zakat, and hajj: Allah has mentioned only their general rules in the Qur`an but has not elucidated the details. It was the Prophet (s) who expressed the precise method of carrying out such duties and their related details. In the same vein, regarding the question of succession, the Prophet (s) himself specified the names of ‘Ali and his household (s) as his successors and so there was no need for their names to have been expressed in the Qur`an itself.

 

Secondly, in such an issue, where there was a good chance of opposition, prudence necessitated that the Qur`an mention the issue indirectly and through allusions for there was the possibility that opposition to the issue of Imamate might lead to opposition to the Qur`an and the main core of Islam, which was certainly not in the interest of the Muslims. That is, if there were a verse specifying the succession of ‘Ali (s), the opponents would have distorted it out of their opposition to him, and this would have violated the value of Islam and the Qur`an as the final religion and the eternal and divine book. For, it should be borne in mind that one of the ways by which the Qur`an could be preserved—for Allah (awj) has asserted, “Indeed We have sent down the Reminder [i.e. the Qur`an] and indeed We will preserve it. (Surat al-Hijr (15), Verse 9:)—is to remove the natural motives for opposition and distortion.

 

Hence, the Qur`an, firstly, refrains from expressing the names of the Imams (s); and secondly, places the verses that are related to the question of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib (s) successorship, the Verse of Tabligh (which regards the official announcement of Imam ‘Ali b. Abi Talib’s (s) successorship), and the Verse of Tathir (which regards the infallibility of the Prophet’s household) between other apparently unrelated verses so as to diminish, as much as possible, the motives for distortion and in so doing secure the Qur`an against all possible attacks.

 

 

And the verses I mentioned in the Start of this post.

 

Statement:

More like you're running away from the truth. Re read my above answer.
 

What are you tying to pull Off here? What Kind of answer is this, I Asked you a clear Question? or was it not clear?

 

Statement:

don't enjoy repeating myself but il make you an exception.

 

Me neither, But your Not making a Good stance at the moment.

 

 

Statement:
RE READ MY FIRST POST AND LOOK AT HOW PRECISE THEM VERSES ARE.

 

have the verses I mentioned not Precise? can you please Object to the verses above. Thank you.
 

Statement:
HAVE I USED A SINGLE VERSE REGARDING HISTORY??? NO

 

I meant When For example interpreting verses, One needs to know when, Why, and what the Prophet & Ahlulbayt (s) said, to have the full understanding of a certain verse.

 

Statement:
HAVE I USED A SINGLE UNSPECIFIC VERSE?? NO. 

 

Concerning your stance, its Quite vague really on what your trying to point out since you have not objected to the verses I made clear.


Statement:
You still don't get it do you??

 

is this an Answer or a General Statement?

Statement:

Each verse I gave you was precise eg; the prophet was described as an apostle. Allah told us he is one. We got told names of books etc etc. 
THE WHOLE REASON Allah ( swt) IS PRECISE WITH USUL AD DIN VERSES ARE SO THAT NOBODY CAN CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE VERSE BY USING HADITH. BECAUSE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì KNEW THAT SECTS WOULD BE CREATED AND WE WOULD DIFFER IN HADITH. NASIBIS COULD EASILY CLAIM THAT THIS VERSE CAME FOR SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO NAMES MENTIONED.

 

(1) A hadith Concerning A verse Can not Change its meaning, but only interpret it.
(2) No one knows The Quran more Knowledgeably than Ahlulbayt (s)
(3) the verses I mentioned on Khilafa on the First Answer on this post are very Precise.

(4) each verse Cam down for a reason on Someone or something.
(5) you cannot interpret a verse without a Saying From the prophet (s) and His Ahlulbayt (s).

 

 

Statement:

Also the word used is WALI which has many meanings and anybody can interpretate it as they like. SO I AM SORRY THIS VERSE IS UN SPECIFIC.

 

Answered in the post "Meaning of Wali", Second of All its clear what a word means When it is in a Specific sentence Where it tells you to obey, no need to ignore the Whole Context My dear friend. Can you please tell me the purpose Of Ghadeer Khum? Why it happen? Why did the prophet (s) say what he said? Thank you. and proof that he Meant Wali in the means of Friendship. Third of All I mentioned Clear Narrations Where the prophet (s) Clearly Man times say the Hadith of Thaqlain and Manzila in the Style of "Khalifa". Why do you ignore this? Please explain.
 

Statement:
Verse number two.Stop mis translating verses this has nothing to do with Allah (S.W.T) choosing imams

 

Statement:
Verse number 1...errrr sorry buh I can't see where it precisely says Allah  will send imams for this ummah?? Also that "caliph" was a prophet a.s

 

 

(1) there is a Difference between Khilafa and Nubuwa. Why did Allah not say Anbiya Instead of Khalifa? And No doubt Allah Said this in the means of Khilafa that is not for a Specific time, nor Place, put it is for All of time, and this is very clear. We Find That Allah Made Clear What Khilafa is n Many verses, Please prove to me That Khalifa means Prophets (A.S), then What are we to say to the Successor of Solomon Who Moved the Throne in less than a twinkle of An eye How do we Distinguish between him ad prophet Solomon (A.S)? Do we call them Bother prophets? or do We call one a prophet and another Khalifa? Successor? Imam? Your even contradicting Arabic Literature?
 

 

Statement:

(28:68). CHOOSING means JUDGING and LEGISLATING or else it is general in meaning which includes judging and legislating too.

 

Are you well Profound with English? Because Judging Is Deciding and that is a form of Concluding Whats best. Do Does not Allah Decide and Judge Who he Appoints to guide Humanity? Do you think I do not read?


    
Statement:
Verse number two.Stop mis translating verses this has nothing to do with Allah ( swt) choosing imams.

 

​Can you please polity Quote Where I said this verse is Meant for the Imams? 
Second of All I mentioned The following to support my stance. 

   

 

Statement:

No. You're concept of imamah is invalid. Until you can prove to me Allah ( swt) said he would send imams for this ummah.

 

is the Word Khalfia not clear to you?
has Allah Not made a Guide for All people?
Are We not to obey those Of Who Allah told us to obey While they gave Zakat While Ruku?
Did the prophet (s) Did not say Obey Ali (s)?

you Did not Answer My Question On Shura My dear friend.

 

 

Statement:

Since Allah  never said he would send "imams" then the only option left is to have a leader because every nation needs a leader.

Imam is Leadership? Do you not know the meaning of Imam?  And the Word Imam Has been mentioned Many times In the Quran. On day of Judgement Will Allah Not ask you Who is your Imam? According to the Quran. (17:71)?

 

Statement:

Oh my god. Is this your final leg to stand on. So Allah ( swt) never mentioned names because he thought his book would become corrupted!!!!!!! When he himself promised to protect it. What a desperate excuse that is.

 

How Well do you know English? you seem to Accuse me by taking Sentences Out of Context. I made clear that Allah Sent the Quran on How he wanted it to be, Do you think he does not know what is in the peoples Hearts? Allah is Know-er Of All things that Exist. He knows how to guide them and What to tell them, Show them and such, therefore Allah Does What ever he wants, he is Beyond everything Imaginable.

 

Statement:

THE HADITHS REGARDING THE VIRTUES OF IMAM ALI A.S HAVE BEEN PRESERVED BUT FOR SOME REASON YOU BELIEVE THE QURAN WOULDNT HAVE WHEN Allah ( swt) HIMSELF PROMISES THAT GE ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì WILL PROTECT IT.

 

(1) your Accusing me of Claiming that I said the Quran is Not Preserved? brother Why are you Lying? Can you please Quote Where I said Such a Thing? (A'azobillah)

(2) No I did not claim that All Ahadith are Preserved, Again you are lying. Can you Please Quote where I Said such a thing?

(3) The Book Of Allah (s.w.t) is Preserved and Protected, For Allah is Greatest and Guides Whom he Wills. 

 

 

Statement:

...and for the record I'm doing this because I'm trying to show you how you can't use the verse 4:59 to prove the convept of imamat, because it is unspecific.
   

 

And yet you have Ignored My Questions Over time. So your saying any verse that is Unspecific it has No meaning Specific meaning? So are you saying there is not turth to it? please Explain and Excuse me, But the Hadiths I mentioned from your own Sunni Imams Who are of the Authors of the Six Sahihs Authenticated the Hadiths I gave you on this issue. So do you reject them as Well?   

 

 

Statement:

If the verse was a precise verse we would have been told WHO were the ulil amr and we would also have been told to REFER to the ulil amr.

 

(1) In the verse They are to be Obeyed.
(2) In order to Refer to the Prophet (s) we must Refer To Ahlulbayt (s).
(3) the verse as it mentioned When the people come to a Disagreement it is Not Aimed at the Uli al Amr, But In generally everything.
(4) if they come to a Disagreement, (the people) Who are they to judge that Uli al amr are not to bey Obey or not? When Allah is saying "obey" them?


  
Statement:

Can you see any loop holes in the verses I have you for our usul's 

 

(1) No I cannot see Any Loopholes in thee verses, for they are Allah's Word and He is the First and he is he Last.

(2) Please have some Respect for my Beliefs. Can you please Quote One Insult I made Against you in this Whole topic please?

 

 

Statement:

Ps.. Stop using that hadith of AHLE BAYT and quran.

 

So you want me to ignore what the prophet (s) said? No thank you. I obey Allah and to Obey Allah is to obey The prophet (s) and if the prophet (s) tells me to Hold on to the Quran and his Ahlulbayt (s), then I will hold on.


Statement:

If this verse talks about Imamate then bibi fatimah r.a was also AHLE BAYT does this make her an infallible imam.

 

This Question I answered before.

(1) infallibility is Not Restricted to only Prophets and Imams.
(2) She is Of Ahlulbayt (s) Who Allah Purified. 
(3) There are Only twelve Imams after the prophet (s).
​(4) If One is Infallible that does not mean he or she in an Imam.
______________________________________

Statement:

There are no restrictions in that hadith as to who are and who arnt the AHLE BAYT the prophet (s) is referring to.

(1) I have prophet to you through Many narrations the Identity of Ahlulbayt (s) and Who they are. And here on the topic of who are Uli al amr, you bring it up again for no reason. brother are you ignorant to this point?

 

Narrated Aisha:

 

 

 Sunni reference:One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."

 

  • Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

 

 

 Another version of the "Tradition of Cloak" is written in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, which is narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows:

 

The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

     

 

-Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

(1) Why Did Um Salam Not join in? 
(2) it clear who Ahlulbayt (s) are.

 

 

Also In the tradition of al-Hakim the wording the last question and answer is as follows:

 

 

Umm Salama said: "O Prophet of Allah! Am I not one of the members of your family?" The Holy Prophet replied: "You have a good future but only these are the members of my family. O Lord! The members of my family are more deserving."

 

-Sunni reference: al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p416

 

Also the wording reported by al-Suyuti and Ibn al-Athir is as follows:

 

Umm Salama said to the Holy Prophet: "Am I also one of them?" He replied: "No. You have your own special position and your future is good."

 

 

Sunni reference:

  • Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v2, p289
  • Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, p198

 

Also al-Tabari quotes Umm Salama saying:

 

I said, "O Prophet of Allah! Am I not also one of your Ahlul-Bayt?" I swear by the Almighty that the Holy Prophet did NOT grant me any distinction and said: "You have a good future."

 

 

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Tabari, v22, p7 under the commentary of verse 33:33

 

Beside Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Tirmidhi from which we quoted the Tradition of Cloak on the authority of Aisha and Umm Salama respectively, below are more Sunni references of the Tradition of Cloak who reported both versions of the traditions:

 

(3) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, pp 323,292,298; v1, pp 330-331; v3, p252; v4, p107 from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri

(4) Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p578, Tradition #978

(5) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p416 (two traditions) from Ibn Abi Salama, v3, pp 146-148 (five traditions), pp 158,172

(6) al-Khasa'is, by an-Nisa'i, pp 4,8

(7) al-Sunan, by al-Bayhaqi, narrated from Aisha and Umm Salama

(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 2, p69

(9) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v2, p700 (Istanbul), from Aisha

(10) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, pp 198,605 from Aisha and Umm Salama

(11) Tafsir Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, pp 5-8 (from Aisha and Abu Sa'id al-Khudri), pp 6,8 (from Ibn Abi Salama) (10 traditions)

(12) Tafsir al-Qurtubi, under the commentary of verse 33:33 from Umm Salama

(13) Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p485 (Complete version) from Aisha and Umar Ibn Abi Salama

(14) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12; v4, p79 narrated from Ibn Abi Salama

(15) Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, sec. 1, p221 from Umm Salama

(16) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb Baghdadi, v10, narrated from Ibn Abi Salama

(17) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p193 narrated from Aisha

(18) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v1, pp 332-336 (seven traditions)

(19) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibb al-Tabari, pp21-26, from Abu Sa'id Khudri

(20) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p166 (by several transmitters)

 

Here is another authentic variation of "The Tradition of Cloak" which is related to Safiyya who was another wife of the Prophet (S). Ja'far Ibn Abi Talib narrated:

 

When the Messenger of Allah noticed that a blessing from Allah was to descent, he told Safiyya (one of his wives): "Call for me! Call for me!" Safiyya said: "Call who, O the Messenger of Allah?" He said: "Call for me my Ahlul-Bayt who are Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain." Thus we sent for them and they came to him. Then the Prophet (PBUH&HF) spread his cloak over them, and raised his hand (toward sky) saying: "O Allah! These are my family (Aalee), so bless Muhammad and the family (Aal) of Muhammad." And Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, revealed: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a thorough purification (Quran, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)".

 

 

Sunni references:

  • al-Mustadrak by al-Hakim, Chapter of "Understanding (the virtues) of Companions, v3, p148. The author then wrote: "This tradition is authentic (Sahih) based on the criteria of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim)."
  • Talkhis of al-Mustadrak, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p148
  • Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v3, p33

 

 

 

In addition According to the Sunnah ( Ahlul-Sunnah) one Who refuses the Abu bakr as Khalifa is Kafir.

So Why are you arguing? To what you follow we are Kuffar.


 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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According to the Sunnah, One Who Rejects Abu Bakr is Kaffir:

 

 most famous book of the Islamic Fiqh (Law) book “Durr al-Mukhtar”, has mentioned that: 

 
And there is unanimity, consensus and agreement of the whole Muslim Ummah upon this issue. 

In another famous book of the Islamic Fiqh “Tahtavi”, Hashiyyah (a commentary) on “Durr”, has also clearly and definitely mentioned that:
 
ان انكربعض ما علم من الدين ضرورة كفربھا كقوله ان اﷲ تعالٰی جسم كالاجسام وانكاره صحبةالصديق

"If a person who says that Allah Ta’ala has a body like any other creature, will be Kaffir, without any doubt. And anyone who denies the companionship of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) will also be declared as a Kaffir." [Durr-al-Mukhtar, Published from Matba' Mujtabai Dehli, Page 83]
 
It is also written in the renowned Islamic Fiqh books that:

الرافضي ان فضل عليا علی غیره فھو مبتدع ولو انكرخلافة الصدیق رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه فھو كافر
“Any Rafidhi who claims that Hadrat Mawla Ali (Karam Allahu wajh al-Karim) is superior to all companions, is a heretic, and a wrongdoer. And if, he denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) he is then no doubt, a Kaffir.” [Fatawa Khulasa, in ‘Kitab al-Salat’ (chapter of Salah) section: 15, and “Khazanat al-Musannafin”, in the chapter of ‘Kitab al-Salat’ (Book of Salah) in the section ‘To follow a Rafidhi in Salat, is it right or wrong’?]

In another famous and renowned Islamic Fiqh books, it is stated that:
 
وكذا خلا فته
“And similarly, those who deny his Caliphate are also Kaffir. [Tahtavi, Published from Dar al-Ma'rifah [beirut - Lebanon], Vol. 1, Page 244]
 
Another Islamic Fiqh book has stated too, that:
 
فی الرافض من فضل عليا علی الثلاثة فمبتدع وان انكرخلافة الصدیق او عمررضی اﷲ عنھما فھو كافر

“Any Rafidhi, who prefers Mawla Ali above the other three rightly guided Caliphs, is a misled. If he denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique and Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anhuma) he is then, a Kaffir.” [“Fath al-Qadeer”, Sharah (a commentary) on the most renowned and reliable Fiqh book “Hidayah”, printed in Egypt, Vol.1, Page 248 and in Hashiyyah (a commentary) on the Fiqh book “Tabi’een al-Salamah”, by Allama Ahmad as-Salabi, printed in Egypt, Vol. 1, Page 135]
 

من انكرخلا فة ابی بكر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه فھو كافرفی الصحیح ومن انكر خلافة عمر رضی الله تعالی عنه فھو كافر فی الاصح

“Anyone, who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr (Radi Allahu Anh) is a Kaffir; and this is absolutely true. And, if anyone, who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anh) is also a Kaffir. This is also absolutely true.”  [Al-Wajeez, by Imam Kurdari, Printed in Egypt, Vol. 3, Page 318 and Fatawa Bazaziyah, Vol. 6, Page 318]
 



Another most renowned and reliable Islamic Fiqh book “Tabi’een al-Haqaique”, Sharah (a commentary) on another most reliable Fiqh book “Kanz al-Daqaique”, has mentioned that:

 

It is written in the most reliable and renowned Islamic Fiqh book “Fatawa Alamgiri”, and it has also mentioned, that:

 
قال المرغینانی لا تجوز الصلوة خلف الرافضي
“Imam Marghinani has said, that Salah will be invalid, if it is performed by following a Rafidhi.” [Tabi’een al-Haqaique, Sharah (a commentary) on another most reliable Fiqh book “Kanz al-Daqaique”, printed in Egypt, Vol. 1, Page 134]

 

 
It is also written in the following Fiqh books “Bada’eh”, “Bazaziyyah”, “Asabah”, “Fan al-Sa’ani”, “al-Haf al-Abrar wal-Basair”, “Fatawa Qurwiyyah” and “Waqiat al-Muftiyyin”, and all these books have quoted references from another most authentic and renowned Fiqh book “Fatawa Khulasa”, that:


 
ھكذا فی التبیین والخلاصة وھو الصحیح ھكذافی البدائع

“Likewise, it is stated in the following two Islamic Fiqh books “Tabi’een al-Haqaique”, and “ Fatawa Khulasa” and that is the truth.” [Fatawa Alamgiri, printed in Egypt, Vol. 1, Page 84]
 

It is also mentioned in another most renowned Fiqh book “Fatawa Bazaziyyah”, that:

 الرافضي ان كان یسب الشیخین و یلعنھما والعیاذ باﷲ تعالٰی فھو كافر وان كان یفضل عليا كرم اﷲ تعالٰی وجهه علیھما فھو مبتدع

“Rafidhi Tabarai, who reproach and abuse Hadrat Shaykhain, for example, Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique and Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anhuma) are Kaffir. And if, they only prefer Hadrat Mawla Ali (Karam Allahu wajh al-Karim) they will not be Kaffir, but they will be misled and heretic.” [‘Bada’eh.”, Vol. 3, Page 264, and “Bazaziyyah”, Vol. 3, Page 319, “Asabah”, “Fan al-Sa’ani”, ‘Kitab al-Sair’, “al-Haf al-Abrar wal-Basair”, printed in Egypt, Page 187, “Fatawa Qurwiyyah”, printed in Egypt, Vol. 1, Page 25, and “Waqiat al-Muftiyyin”, printed in Egypt, Page 13]

ویجب اكفارھم باكفار عثمان و علی وطلحة و زبیر و عائشة رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنهم
“This is one of the obligations to belief that the Rafidhis, the Nasibis and the Kharjis, are all Kaffir. Because, they say Amir al-Momineen, Hadrat Uthman, Hadrat Mawla Ali, Hadrat Talha, Hadrat Zubair and Hadrat Ayisha Siddiqua (Radi Allahu Anhum) were Kaffirs.” [Fatawa Bazaziyyah, Noori Book Store Peshwar, Vol. 6, Page 318]

 


Another most renowned, famous and most authentic Islamic Fiqh book “Bahr al-Raique”, has stated that:

 

It is mentioned in another authentic and most renowned Fiqh book “Majma al-Anhar”, Sharah (a commentary) on the book “Multaqi al-Abhar”, that:

 
یكفر بانكاره امامة ابی بكر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه علی الا صح كا نكاره خلافة عمر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه علی الاصح
“The most correct and authentic belief is that: ‘Anyone, who denies the leadership and Caliphate of either, Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique or Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anhuma) is no doubt, a Kaffir.'" [bahr al-Raique, printed in Egypt, Vol. 5, Page 131, Bahr al-Raique, Bab al Ahkaam al Murtaddeen, Published by H.M. Saeed Co. Karachi, Vol. 5, Page 121]
 

This book mentions again, that:

 
الرافضي ان فضل عليا فھو مبتدع وان انكر خلافة الصدیق فھو كافر
“If the Rafidhis are only Tafdhili (those Shias, who prefer Hadrat Mawla Ali (Radi Allahu Anh) above the other three Sunni Caliphs) then, they are misled. If, they deny the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr (Radi Allah Anh) then, they are no doubt, Kaffirs."[“Majma al-Anhar”, Sharah (a commentary) on the book “Multaqi al-Abhar”, printed in Istanbul, Vol. 1, Page 105]
 


It is mentioned in the most reliable and renowned Fiqh book “Ghuniyyah”, Sharah (a commentary) on the book “Muniyyah”, has mentioned that:

 
یكفر بانكار ه صاحبة ابی بكر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه وبانكاره امامته علی الاصح وبانكاره صحبة عمر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه علی الاصح
“Any person who denies companionship of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique is, no doubt, a Kaffir. Likewise, he who denies Hadrat Abu Bakr’s (Radi Allahu Anh) right to the Caliphate is also a Kaffir. This is according to true Madhab (Faith). Similarly, denial of the companionship of Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anh) is also Kufr. This is according to the right, true and authentic statements of the great Ulama and the Imams.” [“Majma al-Anhar”, Sharah (a commentary) on the book “Multaqi al-Abhar”, printed in Istanbul, Vol. 1, Page 631]
 

المراد بالمبتدع من یعتقدشیئا علی خلاف مایعتقده اھل السنة والجماعة وانما یجوز الاقتداء به مع الكراھة اذالم یكن ما یعتقده یؤدی الی الكفر عنداھل السنة اما لوكان مؤدیا الی الكفر فلا یجوزاصلا كا لغلاة من الروافض الذین یدعون الالوھیة لعلی رضی اﷲ تعالٰی اوان النبوة كانت له فغلط جبریل و نحو ذٰلك مما ھو كفر و كذامن یقذف الصدیقة اوینكر صحبة الصدیق اوخلافته اویسب الشیخین

“Irreligious, means that anyone, whose faith is against the Faith of the Ahlus-Sunnat wa-Jama’at, in any matter. To follow such a person in Salah is not lawful at all, with any consideration. And the condition is that, when belief of such a person does reach to the extents and to the limits of Kufr. This is in the light of the religious teaching; and according to the belief of the Ahlus-Sunnat wal Jama’at. If, his belief takes him to reach the extent and the limit of Kufr, then to follow such a person in Salah, will not be lawful by any means. Some of their great Kufr (disbelieves) are, for example, the extremist Rafidhis say, that: 'Mawla Ali (Karam Allahu wajh al-Karim) is the ‘god.’ And they also proclaim: 'The Prophethood was assigned for Hadrat Mawla Ali (Radi Allahu Anh) and, the Angel Jibril mistakenly delivered it to the wrong person by the instruction of Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh).' There are so many example of their Kufr, such as these, which we have just mentioned above, which leads them out of the bounds of Islam. Any Salah, which has been performed by following such person, who equates to Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) such a lie, he has abused and slandered Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) that he was not a trustworthy person, must be performed again. Also, avoid performing Salah behind anyone, who denies the companionship, or Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique, or Abuses him, or Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anhuma)." [“Ghuniyyah”, Sharah (a commentary) on the book “Muniyyah”, printed in Istanbul, Page 514, Gunyatul Mustamila, Fasl al Oola Bil Imamah, Suhail Academy Lahore, Page 515]
 

The most acknowledged Islamic Fiqh book “Kifaya”, Sharah of another Authentic Fiqh book “Hedaya”, and “Mustakhlis al-Haqaique”, Sharah of another Fiqh book “Kanz al-Daqaique”, and, these both have stated, that:


 



 
ان كان ھواه یكفر اھله كالجھمی و القدری الذی قال بخلق القراٰن والرافضي لغالی الذی ینكر خلافة ابی بكر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنه لا تجوز الصلٰوة خلفه
“If the irreligiousness of such a person reaches to the extent of the Kufr, as did the irreligiousness of the Jahimiyyah’s and the Qidriyyah’s, who say that the Quran is a creation of Allah Ta’ala, and not the true Words from Him. The extremist Rafidhis, deny the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh). Then, how can that Salah be right, which is performed following them?” [“Kifaya”, Sharah of another Authentic Fiqh book “Hedaya”, printed in Bombay, India, Vol. 1, and “Mustakhlis al-Haqaique”, Sharah of another Fiqh book “Kanz al-Daqaique”, Bab fi Bayan al Ahkaam Al-Imamah, Printed by Kanshi Raam Bros. Lahore, Page 515]

 

The famous Fiqh book “Sharah Kanz” and in another Fiqh book “Hashiyyah Fateh al-Mo’een”, have both stated that:

 

Another Fiqh book “Tahtavi Ala Miraqi al-Falah”, has stated that:

 
في الخلاصة یصح الاقتداء باھل الاھواء الاالجهمیة والجبریة والقدریة والرافضي الغالی ومن یقول بخلق القراٰن والمشبه ، وجملتاه ان من كان من اھل قبلتنا ولم یغل فی ھواه حتی لم یحكم بكونه كافراتجوزالصلوة خلفه وتكر ه واراد بالرافضي الغالی الذی ینكر خلافة ابی بكر رضی اﷲتعالٰی عنه
“There is stated in “Fatawa Khulasa”, that: ‘Any Salah, which has been performed by the following of an irreligious person becomes invalid, such as, Jahimiyyah, Jabriyyah, Qidriyyah, Rafidhiyyah, or any other such person, who believe that the Holy Quran is a created being, or any other sect, who believe in such ugly faith, like them.’ The reasons are, that the Salah will only be rightly performed, if it is performed by the following of those people of the Qibla, who are not extremist, misled and whose irreligiousness has not reached to the extent, which does not lead him to the bounds of Kufr. But, the extremist Rafidhis, deny the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh)." [sharah Kanz, by Mulla Miskin, printed in Egypt, Vol. 1, Page 208, Hashiyyah Fateh al-Mo’een]
 

The most versified Fiqh book “Nazm al Faraid”, it is stated that:

 
ان انكر خلافة الصدیق كفر و الحق فی الفتح عمر بالصدیق فی ھذا الحكم والحق فی البرھان عثمان بھما ایضا ولا تجوز الصلوة خلف منكر المسح علی الخفین او صحبة الصدیق ومن یسب الشیخین اویقذف الصدیقة ولا خلف من انكر بعض ماعلم من الدین ضرورة لكفره ولا یلتف الٰی تاویله و اجتھاده
“Anyone, who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) is, no doubt, a Kaffir. And this is also stated in another Fiqh book Fateh al-Qadeer, that: There is no doubt, that anyone, who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anh) is, also a Kaffir. And to perform Salah by following such a person is not lawful. The following will not be lawful of that person too, who denies brushing up (mas’ah) on the leather-socks, or he denies the companionship of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh). And, he also abuses or slanders the Shaikhain (Radi Allahu Anhuma), Umm al-Momineen Hadrat Ayisha Siddiqua (Radi Allahu Anha). The Salah will not be valid, which is performed by following any such a person, who denies any of the essentials of Deen. And, so, he will be also Kaffir, and none of his interpretations will be regarded, or taken into account.” [Tahtavi Ala al-Miraqi al-Falah, printed in Egypt, Page 198]
 

لعن الشیخین اوسب كافر؛ ومن قال فی الاید ی الجوارح اكفر ۔۔۔ وصحح تكفیرمنكرخلافت ال؛ عتیق فی الفاروق ذٰلك الاظھر 
“He who abuses Hadrat Abu Bakr and Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anhuma) or reproaches them, is no doubt, a Kaffir. And he, who says that ‘Yadullah’ (Hand of Allah) and takes it’s meaning literally, is also a disbeliever. No doubt, this is the greatest of disbeliefs. And, anyone who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) will be charged with the infidelity. Anyone, who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anh) will also be charged with the infidelity.” [Nazm alأFaraid by Allama Ibn Wahban, printed in Egypt, Page 40]
 


The most famous and authentic Fiqh book has said that:

 

There is written in the Fatawa of the Shaykh al-Islam, Ubaidullah Afandi, in his books “Mughni al-Mustafti an Sawal al-Mufti”, and “Uqood al-Dariyyah”, that:

 
الرافضي اذاسب ابا بكر و عمر رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنھما ولعنھما یكون كافر اوان فضل علیھما عليا لا یكفر و ھو مبتدع
“If the Rafidhis reproach the Shaikhain (Radi Allahu Anhuma) or abuse them, they will become Kaffir. But, if they just say, that Mawla Ali (Karam Allahu wajh al-Karim) is superior to both of them. Then, there is no doubt, they are not Kaffir, but they will be regarded as wrongdoers, misled and irreligious.” and The same book which has been mentioned above, it has mentioned again that: “One who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique (Radi Allahu Anh) is no doubt, a Kaffir. This is according to the right and true Madhab. And the same is the verdict for one, who denies the Caliphate of Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anh). This is according to the genuine evidence and true statements.” [Taisir al-Maqasad, Sharah of another Fiqh book “Wahabaniyyah”, by Allama Shrumbulali, and, he in ‘Kitab al-Siyar']
 

The book “Uqood al-Dariyyah”, has stated after mentioning of the above Fatwa, that:

 
الروافض كفرة جمعوا بین اصناف الكفر منھا انھم یسبون الشیخین سودا ﷲ وجوھھم فی الدارین فمن اتصف بواحد من ھذه الامور فھو كافر ملتقطا
“Rafidhis are Kaffirs, because of their many contradictory and wrong disbelief and Kufr. And one of their ugly beliefs is, that: ‘Total denial of the Caliphate of the Shaykhain.’ Those who reproach the Shaikhain are also Kaffirs. May Allah Ta’ala dishonor them, and anyone who contributed in anyone of their affairs in those matters, is also a Kaffir.” The same books has mentioned, that: “To reproach Shaikhain (Radi Allahu Anhuma) is such a great matter, such as, to be insolent of the Holy Prophet (SallAllahu Alaihi wa Sallam) himself. Imam Sadar Shaheed said, that: ‘He who reproaches anyone of the Shaykhain, is no doubt, a Kaffir.’” [uqoodal Dariyyah, Bab al Raddah wa Ta'zeez, Irag Bazar Qandhar Afghanistan, Vol. 1, Page 103-104]
 

Allama Kawakabi Jali has stated from the passage from the great scholar, and the commentator of the Holy Quran, Abu Saud Afandi Imadi, and the leader of the Mufti of the Sultanate (Kingdom) of Uthmaniyyah, in Sharah (a commentary) on a well known and verified Fiqh book “Ba-Fawaid as-Sunniyyah”
 
اماسب الشیخین رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنهما فانه كسب النبی صلی اﷲ تعالٰی علیه وسلم وقال اصدر الشهید من سب الشیخین اولعنھما یكفر 
“The Ulama in Sultanate of Uthmaniyyah Turkiyyah (Othman of Turkey) were in agreement of the Fatwa against Rafidhis by the Divine Help of Allah Ta’ala. The most learned amongst them became Shaykh al-Islam, and they gave unanimously the verdicts against the Shias (Rafidhis) abundantly. Many amongst them wrote lengthy books against the Rafidhis; and many other amongst them also wrote small books and pamphlets. They all charged the Rafidhis with infidelity and apostasy. They were all in agreement and have unanimously given the verdict against the Rafidhis.” [uqoodal Dariyyah, Bab Arraddah wa Ta'zeez, Irag Bazar Qandhar Afghanistan, Vol. 1, Page 104]
 
In the book “Asabah” and “Waqiyyat al-Ma’een". They have quoted references from another verified and renowned Fiqh book “Manaqib Kardari”, which has stated, that:

 

یكفر اذا انكر خلاتھما او یبغضھما لمحبة النبی صلی ﷲ تعالٰی علیه وسلم لھما
“He who denies the Caliphate of Shaykhain or hates them, there is no doubt, such a person, is a Kaffir. Because, both are the beloved of the Holy Messenger (Sall Allahu Alaihi wa Sallam). Many who were the most learned amongst them have clarified and clearly stated that: “Rafidhis Tabarai, are such Kaffirs that their repentance will never be accepted.” [“Asabah”, in the chapter ‘Rawayat’, and, the book “Ithaf”, “Anqarwi”, Vol.1, Page 25, and “Waqiyyat al-Ma’een, printed in Idara-e-Ma'arif Islamia Baluchistan, Page 13]
 


In other renowned Fiqh books, it is stated:

 

It is also written in another most renowned Fiqh books that:

 
كل مسلم ارتد فتو بته مقبولة الا الكافر بسب النبی اوالشیخین او احدھما
“The repentance of every apostate will be acceptable, but the repentance of those who became Kaffirs, because of their insult and blasphemy of any Prophet, or Shaykhain, or any of the Sahabah, is not acceptable.” [Tanveer al- Absar, on the original text of the authentic and most reliable Fiqh book “Durr al-Mukhtar”, printed in Hashmi press, Page 319, Durral Mukhtar, Kitabul Jihad, Bab al Murtad, Printed in Mujtabai Dehli, Vol. 1, 57-356]
 

It is stated in the most authentic Fiqh book “Durr al-Mukhtar”, that: “It is stated in the book “Bahr al-Raique”, and it has quoted references from other Fiqh books, such as:

 
كافر تاب فتو بته مقبو لة فی الدنیا والاٰخرة الاجماعة الكافر بسب النبی صلی اﷲ تعالٰی علیه وسلم وسائر الا نبیاء وبسب الشیخین اوا حد ھما
“The repentance of any Kaffir, who repents, is accepted in the World; and the hereafter. But, there are some Kaffirs, that their repentance will never be accepted. And amongst them are those who became Kaffirs, because of their insult and blasphemy against our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu Alaihi wa Sallam) or against any other Prophet (Alaihimus Salam). There are also those who became Kaffir, because they insulted Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddique or Hadrat Umar Farooque (Radi Allahu Anhuma).” [Asabah wan-Nazair, Fatawa Khairiyyah, Kitaabul Sayyar, Bab al Murtad, printed in Darul Ma'arifa Egypt, Vol. 1, Pages. 94, 95, 102, Ittihafal Absaar wa al Basaair, Printed in Egypt, Page 186]
 

And this is also the verdict of Imam Daboosi and Imam Faqih Abu al-Lais Samarqandi. This is the right and true statement, and judgement to issue the verdict against them. And in another Fiqh book “Asabah”, has also stated the similar event and accepted this verdict. Shaikh al-Islam, Hadrat Allama Muhammad bin Abdullah Abu Abdullah Ghazi, Jannartash, has too, accepted this verdict.

It is stated in other authentic books which have clearly mentioned that:

 
في البحر عن الجو ھرة معزیا للشھید من سب الشیخین اوطعن فیھما كفر ولا تقبل توبته وبه اخذ الدبوسی وا بو اللیث وھوا لمختار للفتوی انتھی وجزم به الاشباه واقر ه المصنف
“Jawaharah Nayarah”, Sharah “Mukhtasir Qudoori”, by Imam Sadar Shaheed, that: ‘Any person who reproaches the Shaikhain (Radi Allahu Anhuma) or taunts them, is no doubt, a Kaffir, and his repentance will never be accepted.’” [Durr al Mukhtar Sharah Tanveer al Absaar, Bab al Murtad, Printed in Mujabai Dehli, Vol. 1, 357]
 

یجب اكفارالروافض فی قولھم برجعة الاموات الی الدنیا(الی قوله ) وھولاء القوم خارجون عن ملة الاسلام و احكامھم احكام المرتد ین كذا فی الظھیریة
“It is Wajib (incumbent) to charge, that Rafidhis are Kaffir, because of their belief in infidelity. And there is no doubt that they are out of Islam. The religious command against them will exactly be the same, which are against the apostates.” It is also stated in “Fatawa “Zaheeriyyah". [“Fatawa Hindiyyah” Vol. 2, Page 246, “Tariqa al-Muhammadiyyah”, and its commentary “Hadiqa an-Nadiyyah”, printed in Egypt, Vol. 1, Page 207, 208, “Barjindi”, Sharah “Naqayyah”, Vol. 4, Page 20]
 


The Fiqh book “Khazanat al-Muftiyeen”, has stated: 

 

والا حوط فیه قول المتكلمین انھم ضلال من كلاب النار
According to the statements of the distinguished Imams, who were also Mutakallameen (those Imams, who describe or define details of the Faith): “They are misled like the dogs of Hell.” [Khazanat al-Muftiyeen, Kitab al Faraidh, Vol. 2, Page 250]
 

 

An absolute command based on the Consensus


And, all Rafidhis in the present age are not only Tabarai, but generally, they all deny essentials of Deen. Undoubtedly and definitely, they are infidels and apostate by the consensus and agreement of all the Muslim Imams of the past and present. The Ulama have clarified that those who do not admit them as Kaffir, are themselves Kaffirs. This is an absolute command based on the consensus and agreement about the Tabarrai Rawafidh, that:

 

They are generally infidels and apostates. The animals slaughtered by them are carrion. To marry with their men and women is absolutely unlawful (Haram) rather it is pure adultery. May Allah Ta’ala forbid! If this marriage is between a Rafidhi man and a Muslim woman, then this is a great Divine wrath. If the man is Sunni, and woman Rafidhi, then this is from among the greatest evils. This marriage will not be lawful, but mere adultery. And any child born from this marriage will be illegitimate. He would not get inheritance from his father, even though the child will be Sunni. There is no father of an illegitimate child. The woman will not have the right for legacy or dowry. This is because there is no dowry for adulteress. The Rafidhis cannot inherit from the legacy of any near relation, or inherit from the legacy of his father, mother, son and daughter. Sunni is, but a Sunni, a Rafidhi cannot inherit from the legacy of any Muslim or any Kaffir, nor has he any right from the legacy of people of his own religion, Rafidhi. Familiarizing with them, and keeping any relationship with them, or greeting them, or speaking with their men, women, Alim and Illiterate is, a great sin, and severely unlawful (Haram). One who is aware of their abuses and blasphemous beliefs, and still consider them Muslim, or has doubt in their Kufr. Such a person is himself an infidel and misled, according to the consensus and agreement of the Imams, the Awliya and the Ulama. All those verdicts will also be applied against him, which have been mentioned for the Rafidhis. This is an obligation for the Muslims that they must heed this verdict attentively and become true and pure Sunni Muslims by acting upon it.

 

 

 

 

Sunni Source:
http://www.alahazrat.net/askimam/
 

(1) So Now, Can you show me where the prophet (s) said that Obeying Abu bakr is Obligatory, and when they did Shura Can you prove to me that the prophet (s) said go do shura?

(2) Where does the Concept of Shura Exist for the time of the prophet (s) in the quran? So how can I be Kafir? 


(3) Khilafa Which is chosen By Allah is mentioned in the prophets and Khailfas of Israel is mentioned, and For every Nation there is a guide is Mentioned, Allah Chooses Who he Wills is mentioned, The Successors of Prophet Solomon and Jesus are mentioned, and Prophet Ibrahim (s) was a prophet and then he became an Imam, also same With Harun (s) Who has the position of Prophethood and Imamah. And now your telling me the prophet (s) Did not leave behind him someone Who Can guide the Ummah? Who can Succeed him?


   
 

___________________________________________



Arabic Readers:


 

الصواعق المحرقة [ جزء 1 - صفحة 138 ] 
... فمذهب أبي حنيفة رضي الله عنه أن من أنكر خلافة الصديق أو عمر فهو كافر على خلاف حكاه بعضهم وقال الصحيح أنه كافر والمسالة مذكورة في كتبهم في الغاية للسروجي والفتاوى الظهيرية والأصل لمحمد بن الحسن وفي الفتاوى البديعية فإنه قسم الرافضة إلى كفار وغيرهم وذكر الخلاف في بعض طوائفهم و فيمن أنكر إمامة أبي بكر وزعم ان الصحيح أنه يكفر
و في المحيط أن محمدا لا يجوز الصلاة خلف الرافضة ثم قال لأنهم أنكروا خلافة ابي بكر وقد اجتمعت الصحابة على خلافته
و في الخلاصة من كتبهم أن من أنكر خلافة الصديق فهو كافر
و في تتمة الفتاوى والرافضي المتغالي الذي ينكر خلافة أبي بكر يعني لا تجوز الصلاة خلفه
و في المرغيناني وتكره الصلاة خلف صاحب هوى أو بدعة ولا تجوز خلف الرافضي ثم قال وحاصله إن كان هوى يكفر به لا يجوز وإلا يجوز ويكره

الصواعق المحرقة [ جزء 1 - صفحة 139 ] 
و في شرح المختارو سب أحد من الصحابة وبغضه لا يكون كفرا لكن يضلل فإن عليا رضي الله عنه لم يكفر شاتمه
و في الفتاوى البديعية من أنكر إمامة أبي بكر رضي الله عنه فهو كافر وقال بعضهم وهو مبتدع و الصحيح أنه كافر وكذلك من أنكر خلافة عمر في أصح الأقوال ولم يتعرض أكثرهم للكلام على ذلك
و أما أصحابنا الشافعيون فقد قال القاضي حسين في تعليقه من سب النبي يكفر بذلك ومن سب صحابيا فسق و أما من سب الشيخين أو الختنين ففيه وجهان أحدهما يكفر لأن الأمة أجمعت على إمامتهم والثاني يفسق ولا يكفر ولا خلاف أن من لا يحكم بكفره من أهل الأهواء لا يقطع بتخليدهم في النار وهل يقطع بدخولهم النار وجهان انتهى
و قال القاضي إسماعيل المالكي إنما قال مالك في القدرية وسائر أهل البدع يستتابون فإن تابوا وإلا قتلوا لأنه من الفساد في الأرض كما قال في المحارب وهو فساده في مصالح الدنيا وقد يدخل في الدين من قطع سبيل الحج والجهاد


الصواعق المحرقة [ جزء 1 - صفحة 145 ] 
و مر أن أئمة الحنفية كفروا من أنكر خلافة أبي بكر وعمر رضي الله عنهما والمسألة في الغاية وغيرها من كتبهم كما مر وفي الأصل لمحمد بن الحسن رحمه الله والظاهر أنهم أخذوا ذلك عن إمامهم أبي حنيفة رضي الله عنه ...


حاشية الطحاوي على المراقي ج2 ص299
قوله : خلف من لا تكفره بدعته فلا تجوز صلاة خلف من ينكر شفاعة النبي صلى الله علية وسلم أو الكرام الكاتبين أو الرؤية لأنه كافر وإن قال يرى لجلاله وعظمته فهو مبتدع والمشبه كأن قال لله يد أو رجل كالعباد كافر وإن قال هو جسم لا كالأجسام فهو مبتدع وإن أنكر خلافة الصديق كفر كمن أنكر الإسراء لا المعراج وألحق في الفتح عمر بالصديق في هذا الحكم وألحق في البرهان عثمان بهما أيضا ولا تجوز الصلاة خلف منكر المسح على الخفين أو صحبة الصديق أو من يسب الشيخين أو يقذف الصديقة ولا خلف من أنكر بعض ما علم من الدين ضرورة لكفره ولا يلتفت إلى تأويله واجتهاده وتجوز خلف من يفضل عليا على غيره


((( ليتهم ألحقوا أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام بالثلاثة على الأقل !!! )))



تفسير القرطبي
قُلْت : وَقَدْ جَاءَ فِي السُّنَّة أَحَادِيث صَحِيحَة , يَدُلّ ظَاهِرهَا عَلَى أَنَّهُ الْخَلِيفَة بَعْده , وَقَدْ اِنْعَقَدَ الْإِجْمَاع عَلَى ذَلِكَ وَلَمْ يَبْقَ مِنْهُمْ مُخَالِف . وَالْقَادِح فِي خِلَافَته مَقْطُوع بِخَطَئِهِ وَتَفْسِيقه . وَهَلْ يَكْفُر أَمْ لَا , يُخْتَلَفُ فِيهِ , وَالْأَظْهَر تَكْفِيره 

كفاية الأخبار ج1 ص746
فقال أبو إسحاق : من أنكر إمامة أبي بكر الصديق رضي الله عنه ردت شهادته لمخالفة الاجماع

تفسير القرطبي
قُلْت : وَقَدْ جَاءَ فِي السُّنَّة أَحَادِيث صَحِيحَة , يَدُلّ ظَاهِرهَا عَلَى أَنَّهُ الْخَلِيفَة بَعْده , وَقَدْ اِنْعَقَدَ الْإِجْمَاع عَلَى ذَلِكَ وَلَمْ يَبْقَ مِنْهُمْ مُخَالِف . وَالْقَادِح فِي خِلَافَته مَقْطُوع بِخَطَئِهِ وَتَفْسِيقه . وَهَلْ يَكْفُر أَمْ لَا , يُخْتَلَفُ فِيهِ , وَالْأَظْهَر تَكْفِيره 

كفاية الأخبار ج1 ص746
فقال أبو إسحاق : من أنكر إمامة أبي بكر الصديق رضي الله عنه ردت شهادته لمخالفة الاجماع
كتبه: الحزب 
المصدر: شبكة أنصار الصحابة المنتجبين
ملحق #1 20‏/04‏/2013 7:43:31 ص
سلطان القلوب 12 (الخير لا يفنى) 

      19‏/04‏/2013 4:49:51 م الإبلاغ عن إساءة الاستخدام 
للبكرية تاريخ طويل في تكفير الشيعة وفي كل فترة يكفرون الشيعة تحت دعوى مختلفة
مرة بدعوى أنهم يسبون الصحابة 
مع أنهم لا يكفرون الخوارج الذين قالوا أن علياً عليه السلام كافر 
ولا يكفرون عمار بن ياسر الذي سب عثمان بن عفان كما صححه الألباني في سلسلة الأحاديث الصحيحة 
فيكفرون الشيعة حتى يفنوهم ويتخلصوا منهم وإن لم تقم الدعوى على أساس صحيح

ومرة كفروهم بدعوى أنهم أنكروا خلافة أبي بكر مع أن عمر اعترف أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم لم يستخلف أبا بكر كما في صحيح البخاري
وبالتالي لا يستطيعون تكفير الشيعة من أجل ذلك لأن خلافة أبي بكر ليست من ضروريات الدين

ومرة وفي هذا العصر يكفرون الشيعة بدعوى الشرك

باختصار هم مسيرون تلقائياً
لأنهم يقدسون أبا بكر الإرهابي الذي هو من سن لهم هذه البدعة وهي تكفير كل شخص يخالفهم
ألا تقرأون في صحيح البخاري أن عمر قال (اقتلوا سعداً قتله الله) 
لأن سعد بن عبادة رفض خلافة أبي بكر
ثم قتلوا الزهراء عليها السلام 
وقتلوا مالك بن نويرة 
ثم شنوا الغارات على الناس بدعوى أنهم ارتدوا وأنكروا الزكاة
مع أنه لم ينكر أحداً أصل الزكاة وإنما رفضوا اعطاء الزكاة لأبي بكر لأنه لم يكن الخليفة الشرعي
Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Brother just the truth, is there a precise verse for everything else in the Quran??? And what do you exactly mean by precise??? In the Quran Allah says, "akeemus salah and a'atuz zakah", is there any precise verse of how and when????

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..... Anyway. Have you got ONE precise verse where Allah (swt) instructs us that he will send imams for this ummah or not.

Look at the precise verses I gave you regarding all the other usul ad dins you give me one for imamat.

Verse 4:59 in unspecific for two reasons

1. We are not told exactly who the ulil amr are

2. If this was a precise verse why would Allah (swt) not tell us precisely to refer to ulil amr

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..... Anyway. Have you got ONE precise verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì instructs us that he will send imams for this ummah or not.

Look at the precise verses I gave you regarding all the other usul ad dins you give me one for imamat.

Verse 4:59 in unspecific for two reasons

1. We are not told exactly who the ulil amr are

2. If this was a precise verse why would Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì not tell us precisely to refer to ulil amr

Does it matter Which Ummah?  When Allah is Saying I Will make on this Earth a Khalifa? Do you Understand?

How can you believe in the Imam Mahdi (s)? If he is going to be Our Khalifa in the time of his Appearance? 

So now according to you we have to reject Imam Mahdi (a.f) also.

Did Allah not Say Obey those Who give Zakat While Ruku? 

The verses I mentioned are very Precise brother.

Do you, or do you not believe there should be a Khalifa after the prophet or not? 

 

 

According to the Sunnah its Compulsory to Believe that Abu Bakr is the Khalifa. So Since its Compulsory can you prove this from the Quran please. Just one verse. And look at how many verses Emphasize on Imamah. the Concept of Khilafa Exist in the Quran, While Shura in the means of intervening in the Affairs of Allah is not, No verse is mentioned whatsoever in the Quran.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Does it matter Which Ummah? When Allah is Saying I Will make on this Earth a Khalifa? Do you Understand?

How can you believe in the Imam Mahdi (s)? If he is going to be Our Khalifa in the time of his Appearance?

So now according to you we have to reject Imam Mahdi (a.f) also.

Did Allah not Say Obey those Who give Zakat While Ruku?

The verses I mentioned are very Precise brother.

Do you, or do you not believe there should be a Khalifa after the prophet or not?

According to the Sunnah its Compulsory to Believe that Abu Bakr is the Khalifa. So Since its Compulsory can you prove this from the Quran please. Just one verse. And look at how many verses Emphasize on Imamah. the Concept of Khilafa Exist in the Quran, While Shura in the means of intervening in the Affairs of Allah is not, No verse is mentioned whatsoever in the Quran.

1. Yes, of course it matters if Allah ( swt) can tell us imams of previous ummah's why can't he ( swt) tell us who our imams will be.

2. Because we have hadith talking about imam mahdi. When he comes he will be righteous and Muslims will be in desperate need for a leader.

3. Why do we have to reject imam mahdi??

4. Where on earth in that verse dies it say OBEY.

5.yes there should be a khalifa after prophet (pbuh) but Allah (swt) never said he was going to appoint one for this ummah like he said he appointed Adam a.s and dawud a.s as caliphs.

6. What a load of rubbish. You know as well as I do that that sunni can marry shia and we don't consider you kafir. It says in their that all sunni imams consider shia kafir. Well this is total none sense as not all sunni imams say shia are kafir. If you were considered kafir then you would have been banned from hajj like the qadianis are banned.

There is consensus that qadianis are kafir no doubt but as for shia some ignorant imams say they are and some say they're not. So there is no consensus so that article is a load of none sense.

Brother just the truth, is there a precise verse for everything else in the Quran??? And what do you exactly mean by precise??? In the Quran Allah says, "akeemus salah and a'atuz zakah", is there any precise verse of how and when????

You obviously never read my pervious post where I precisely mentioned each usul then I said you can then go to hadith for additional information.

Please read my posts carefully in the future

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Also you see how even the prophet (pbuh) was described as a prophet in them verses I offered. If Allah swt already said he sent prophets then what was the need to describe the prophet as a prophet to us?? Why did Allah not leave it upto us to work it out like you say about Allah appointed caliphs.

The reason is that the usul's are mentioned precisely and on day of jydgemt Allah ( swt) does not want to hear any excuses regarding usul's

Edited by Just the truth

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I have read your posts very very carefully and i have very clearly seen that, you have avoided answering and commenting about quite alot of my questions and points. Anyways, Allah has clearly said he appoints Imaams and he has given many indications about imaamath, before and after the last Messenger (pbuh). He has also clearly mentioned about a third authority, in the form of Ulul Amre, Imaam-e-Mobeen and Wali. The position has been made clear, about the third authority, now all you need to do is refer to the Messenger (pbuh), regarding the introduction about the third authority. The Ahle Tashee are not just Isna Ashar, the Ahle Sunnah are as well. They just differ on who the twelve are.

You talk about principals of faith (Usool-e-Deen), well Imaamth has clearly been mentioned in the Quran, before and after the Messenger (pbuh).

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I have read your posts very very carefully and i have very clearly seen that, you have avoided answering and commenting about quite alot of my questions and points. Anyways, Allah has clearly said he appoints Imaams and he has given many indications about imaamath, before and after the last Messenger (pbuh). He has also clearly mentioned about a third authority, in the form of Ulul Amre, Imaam-e-Mobeen and Wali. The position has been made clear, about the third authority, now all you need to do is refer to the Messenger (pbuh), regarding the introduction about the third authority. The Ahle Tashee are not just Isna Ashar, the Ahle Sunnah are as well. They just differ on who the twelve are.

You talk about principals of faith (Usool-e-Deen), well Imaamth has clearly been mentioned in the Quran, before and after the Messenger (pbuh).

I've never dodged your questions. I've always tried to answer them the best possible way I can.

I'm sorry but if there was precise verses we sunni and shia would never differ.

Let me show you precise verses and lets see if we can differ.

surah 3:18

Allah witnesses that there is NO DEITY except Him, and [so do] the ANGELS and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is NO DEITY EXCEPT HIM, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Is there anyone in their sane mind who can differ on the oneness of Allah.

Aal Imraan 3: 144; Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before God has proved the men who fought for Him and endured with fortitude? You used to wish for death before you met it, and now you have seen what is it like. MUHAMMAD is no more than an APOSTLE: other apostles have passed away before him. If he die or be slain, will you recant? He that recants will do no harm to God. But God will recompense the thankful.

Is there anyone who can say that Muhammad is not the apostle of Allah ( swt)

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(bismillah)

 

Statement:
Yes, of course it matters if Allah ( swt) can tell us imams of previous ummah's why can't he ( swt) tell us who our imams will be.
 
First of Allah Did not Mention the names of the Previous Imams of the Ummah, for example for have the Successor of prophet Solomon Who he was not mentioned by name, but was refer to the One "Who has the knowledge of the book", or for example the "Haware'en" Of prophet Jesus (s) Allah did not mention them by name, Also the 12 Khalifas of Israel Who Allah Appointed them, He did not mention them by name, So we Return to verse 5:55 Where All Literate Muslims know that Only Imam Ali (s) gave his Ring While Ruku, and in the verse We are ordered to obey him. 

  

Statement:
Because we have hadith talking about imam mahdi. When he comes he will be righteous and Muslims will be in desperate need for a leader.
 
Excuse me but what are you trying to say here? that he is Just a Coincidence? Sorry I don't think that When The prophet (s) says something, he only says it by the orders of Allah, And when the prophet (s) said there Will come a a man Who's name Will be my name and He Will fill the World With justice Just as it has been Filled with Oppression and Evil, I am sure the prophet (s) did not say it Blindly (Istaghfarallah). No doubt people Will be in need of him, but You cannot ignore the fact that he is Appointed by Allah (S.W.T).
 
    
Statement:
Why do we have to reject imam mahdi??
 
I did not say Such a thing, I said "According to your logic" in the means that in your point of view. Since you reject Imamah, Than how can you believe in Imam Mahdi (a.f) and not Imam Ali (a.f) Are they not both Khalifas?

  

 
Statement:
Where on earth in that verse dies it say OBEY.

 
Brother Where is your Logic? If Allah Chooses/Appoints a Khalifa on Earth, Are you not meant to obey him or not? So your saying We can Disobey Allah When he Chooses a Khalifa? And it is he who has Authority over us, so we do not have to obey him? (istaghfarallah)?

 

 
Statement:
yes there should be a khalifa after prophet (s) but Allah never said he was going to appoint one for this ummah like he said he appointed Adam a.s and dawud a.s as caliphs.

And now here, your trying to Justify by saying the Meaning of Khilafa is only for prophets (s). How unsurprising. So How do you Define Abu Bakr, Umar and uthman? What are they prophets? I don't think so, Its Clear according to you they are Termed as "Khalifas". Second of All, Did Allah not say he Appointed 12 Khalifas for Bani Israel or not? So since Allah uses the Meaning Khalifa here, How can you Restrict it to only the prophets (s)? how Would then We be able to define Between The prophet and the Successor? Perhaps you can make a clear stance by Revising some Arabic.
 
 
 
 

 

إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً

 

 "Indeed, I will make upon the Earth a successive authority."

 

 Holy Qur'aan {2:30}

 

 

Brother, the universe is in need of personalities who are able to administer the affairs of Allah (swt). A position that can only be designated by Allah (swt) as He was the first to establish this rule. We learn from history of previous Prophets such as Moosa (a.s) whom selected seventy men and took them with him to Mount Sinai. But all of them, on examination, proved worthless because their faith was not firm. If those selected by Moosa (a.s) proved to be unbelievers at heart, it is obvious that common people would be less competent to choose able rulers for themselves. It is quite possible that those selected for their apparent piety may eventually turn out to be unbelievers. The obedience to such rulers would weaken religion and contradict the Prophetic teachings. Thus a vizier of Allah (swt) must be perfect in terms of knowledge, wisdom and understanding. Allah (swt) had appointed his vizier Adam (a.s) to teach His angels and the rest of creation.



 

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الأَسْمَاء كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلاَئِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاء هَؤُلاء إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ قَالُواْ سُبْحَانَكَ لاَ عِلْمَ لَنَا إِلاَّ مَا عَلَّمْتَنَا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنبِئْهُم بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ فَلَمَّا أَنبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَآئِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُل لَّكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ

 

And He taught Adam all the names and then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right. They said: Glory be to thee! We have no knowledge but that which thou has taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise. He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names. Then, when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I say to you that I surely know what is ghayb (unseen) in the Heavens and the Earth and (that) I Know what you manifest and what you hide. 

 

Holy Qur'aan {2:31-33}

 

Prophet Muhammad (saw) referred to the Qu'raan and Ahlulbayt (a.s) as the 'Two Khalifah's' who would take his place after his (saw) demise and thus restricted his Khilafah to them alone. This established Khilafah, placed side by side, would continue unbroken until the day of Judgement. 

 

 

 

We read in:

 

 

Zaid ibn Thabit from the Prophet of Allah (saw) he said: "I left you two things to follow, what is most important to me is the Khalifatayn. The book of Allah (swt) and my progeny Ahlulbayt (a.s) and they will not separate until they return to me at the pond (of Kawthar in paradise)."
 
Footnote: The Narrators are Jayyid (Good).
 
Source: Majma Al-Zawa'id. Vol. 9, Pg. # 256, H # 14957.
 
 
D-1.jpgD-2.jpg
 
 
Al-Suyuti:
 
Prophet of Allah (swt) he said: "I left you two things to follow. What is most important to me is the Khalifatayn. The book of Allah (swt) and my Ahlulbayt (a.s) and they will not separate until they return to me at the Pond (of Kawthar in paradise)."
 
Footnote: Al-Albani comments both Hadeeth as being Saheeh (Authentic). 
 
Source: Jamia Al-Sageer. Vol. 1, Pg. # 482, H # 2457 - 2456.

 

 

E-1.jpgE-2.jpg

 

 

Ibn Abi Hasim:

Narrated Zaid ibn Thabit: Allah’s Apostle (saw) said: “I will leave among you THE two Khalifahs after me: The Book of Allah and my Itrah (Ahlulbayt). Both shall never separate until they meet me at the 'lake-fount.”
 
Source: Zilal Al-Jannah. Vol. 2, Pg. # 643. H. # 1049. 

  

 

Cover+Al-Sunna+Ibn+Abi+Hasam(Dhilal+Al-JAl-Sunna+Ibn+Abi+Hasam(Dhilal+Al-Jannah)

 

Shuaib Al-Arna'ut:
 
Zayd ibn Thabit said: "The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "I am leaving among you two successors, the book of Allah (swt) and my Ahlulbayt (a.s), and they will not separate from each other until they enter upon me together on the fount-lake".
 
Footnote: Al-Arna'ut says: This narration is Saheeh 'Authectic' with its witnesses (i.e. other narrations that support it), with the exception of the last part: "And they will not separate from each other until they enter upon me together on the fount-lake".
 
Source: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Published in 1995) Vol. 35, Pg. 512. H. # 21654.
 
Cover+Musnad2Vol35.jpgMusnad+Ahmad2Vol35.jpg
 
 
Shuaib Al-Arna'ut authenticates the complete narration including the last sentence later in his works.

Al Tirmidhi:
 
Alee ibn Munzir al Kufi narrated from Muhammad ibn Fudayl narrated from, Al­' A`mash narrated from `Atiyyah from Aboo Sa`id and Al­'A`mash  narrated Habib ibn Abi Thabit narrated Zayd ibn Arqam, they both said; the Messenger of Allah said; '' I am leaving among you [two things] that if you adhere to it then you should never astray after [my death], and one is greater than the other, the Book of Allah, which is an extended rope from the Sky to the Land and my Family whom they are my Household and both of Them will never separate till they come back to me at lake-font, therefore be careful about how you would succeed about them".
 
Al-Tirmidhi: this is Hasan 'Reliable' in this form
 
Footnote: the narration through Zayd Ibn Arqam it is Saheeh 'authentic' and was also recorded by Muslim  (2408), al Nasa'i in 'al Kubra' (8148)& (8175) & (8464), also found in 'al Musnad' (19265) &(19313) and 'Saheeh ibn Hibban' (123). As for the hadeeth through Aboo Sa'eed it is Saheeh 'authentic' according to its other witnesses, (even though)its chain is weak and it is found in al Musnad (11104).
 
Source: Jamia Tirmidhi Sunan Al -Tirmidhi. (Published 2009) Vol. 6. Pg. 337. H. # 4122.
 
Cover+Jamihul+Termidhi+(al-Arnaut)2Vol6.Jamihul+Termidhi+(al-Arnaut)2Vol6.jpg
 
 
 

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Statement:

What a load of rubbish. You know as well as I do that that sunni can marry shia and we don't consider you kafir. It says in their that all sunni imams consider shia kafir. Well this is total none sense as not all sunni imams say shia are kafir. If you were considered kafir then you would have been banned from hajj like the qadianis are banned.

 

First of All the reason Why I mentioned this issue is because you Constantly Accused my Aqeda, by saying that we accuse you of being Kafir, ( from the beginning of our Discussions ), Also you Never answer one Question about the Concept of Shura and its Existence in the book Of Allah. Third of All, they cannot banned us from Hajj, and there are many reasons for this, One of them is to prevent Collusion between the two groups and since we are in the Hundreds of Millions. Third of All, not All Sunnis Agree with this, but this is your "Aqeda" in the means that These Imams of yours, Which claim that Who ever Reject Abu Bakr as Khalifa is Kaffir. I am not accusing you of it, but I am Accusing the Sunnah of theirs. So Now I can Say to you, I don't need to believe in Abu Bakr, Umar, and uthman, as you have given me no proof to do so, therefore can you please tell me why are we referred to as "Rawafid" (refusers) by the Ahlul-Sunnah? If So than Why are we Given this name and what does it mean?

(salam)  

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Brother just the truth, did Allah precisely, exactly and clearly say, in the previous book that, he will send a Messenger named Muhammad (pbuh), with the final revelation and that would be the Quran???

Brother, we are using the Ulul Amre verse to prove that, Allah has put in place a third line of authority and he has selected people, specifically for that job. You are using the Ulul Amre verse to prove that Allah, already approved and gave his seal of approval, for what certain people were going to do on the ground, for example Sakeefa etc.

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@JUSTHETURHT

Adding to my previous Response on page 18, The Hadith that The Twelve Khalifas Will be like the Twelve Khalifas of Bani Israel, ( Musand Ahmad Ibn Hanbal ), This proves they are Divinely Appointed by Allah, And if Allah Puts on earth a Khalifa he must be righteous and Divinely Guided. For when the prophet (pbuh) mentioned them, he was Ask by one of the Companions "Who Will be", Therefore you have to understand they are appointed by Allah.


 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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@JUSTHETRUTH.


Brother for a long time, We have been debating on this topic,and till today you have given me no good reason on your thoughts of Ghadir Khum?, Why So? I asked Time and time again what is the Significance of Ghadir khum, and you gave me no proper reply We all know After completion of the Prophet's (saw) last pilgrimage, 'Hajjatul-Wida,' he (saw) was returning with a caravan of pilgrims towards Madinah. When the crowd reached a place called 'Ghadir Khum' he (saw) delivered the very message that was announced nine days earlier at Arafat (and later in Madinah during his fatal illness). However, on this occasion, Allah (swt) instructed the messenger of Allah to announce Imam Alee (a.s) as his vizier. Some suggest this sermon had nothing to with nomination of Imam Alee (a.s), rather it was the Prophet (saw) merely declaring his friendship with Alee (a.s). If indeed this was the case, it would be totally incomprehensible to even think for a moment that the Prophet (saw) on a boiling hot day, would stop the pilgrims whom wanting to return home due to exhaustion would have to witness a sermon to simply tell them the status of Imam Alee (a.s), especially when the Prophet (saw) did so on numerous other occasions. Imam Alee (a.s) status according to the Qu'raan and Hadeeth would not require any introduction, especially to a companion. But more importantly, why did the Prophet (saw) deliver this message seperately from Hadeeth Al-Thaqalayn i.e. Following  'Qur'aan and Ahlulbayt (a.s)?' Was not Alee (a.s) already included in the Ahlulbayt (a.s)? 

 

 

I am sure you know Ibn Kathir very well:

 

Ibn Kathir:


Narrated Al-Nasa'i in his Sunan from Muhammad ibn Al-Mothanna from Yahya ibn Hamad from Abi Uwana from A'mash from Habib ibn Abi Thabit from Abi Tufayl from Zayd ibn Arqam who said: While returning from Hijjatul Widaa the Messenger of Allah (saw) stopped in a place Ghadir -e- Khum and ordered the Muslims to stop there. The Messenger of Allah (saw) gave a sermon and again repeated that he is going to leave two heavy things among the Ummah, the Book of Allah (swt) and his Ahlulbayt, his Progeny. Then he said: 'Allah is my Master and I am the Master of every Believer.' Then he held the hand of Alee (a.s) and said: "Whomever I am his Master, then Alee (saw) is his Master."

Aboo Tufayl said: "I asked Zayd. Did you hear it from the Messenger of Allah (saw)?" He said: "There was none who was around the pulpit except he saw this with his eyes and heard this with his ears."

Ibn Kathir: Our Sheikh Al-Dhahabi said: This narration is Saheeh (Authentic).
 
Source: Al-Bidaya Wa'an-Nihaya. Vol. 7, Pg. # 668. 

 

 

 

Cover+Al-Bedaya+wa+Nehaya.jpgAl-Bedaya+wa+NehayaVol7.jpg

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