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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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Take a look at the first bit of the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and the Ulul Amre among you". Now with a wide mind and an open heart, just ask yourself this, who is Allah speaking to here??? Who is he really speaking to here??? To the people (Muslim Ummah) about the Ulul Amre or to the people (Muslim Ummah) including the Ulul Amre??? By using the power of sense and logic, you will realise that, Allah is speaking to the people (Muslim Ummah) about the Ulul Amre and this is what is exactly happening all the way throughout the entire verse, my friend.

I see you believe we should run before we can crawl!!!

Why you not getting to the main point of fee shayin?? USE YOUR SO CALLED "LOGIC" THERE.

Since you believe that the ulil amr is your imams then the imams (according to shia) were here so we could "refer" all matters to them then tell me WHY WHEN IT SAYS "REFER" TO Allah (swt ) and MESSENGER (pbuh) there is no mention of "referring" to the ulil amr (which you believe are your imams).

Calm down, keep your shirt on and don't start pulling your hair out. "Fee shay inn" is the next part of the verse and you keep yapping on about the Imaams, don't worry, you will get an absolute and thorough reply on this, step by step. People from all sects within Islam, the average and common people who are witnessing this discussion, deserve better. They deserve the truth and we will, insha'Allah, deliver it to them, despite the obstacles.

To be continued!

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Take a look at the first bit of the verse, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and the Ulul Amre among you". Now with a wide mind and an open heart, just ask yourself this, who is Allah speaking to here??? Who is he really speaking to here??? To the people (Muslim Ummah) about the Ulul Amre or to the people (Muslim Ummah) including the Ulul Amre??? By using the power of sense and logic, you will realise that, Allah is speaking to the people (Muslim Ummah) about the Ulul Amre and this is what is exactly happening all the way throughout the entire verse, my friend.

Calm down, keep your shirt on and don't start pulling your hair out. "Fee shay inn" is the next part of the verse and you keep yapping on about the Imaams, don't worry, you will get an absolute and thorough reply on this, step by step. People from all sects within Islam, the average and common people who are witnessing this discussion, deserve better. They deserve the truth and we will, insha'Allah, deliver it to them, despite the obstacles.

To be continued!

You keep saying that Allah (swt) is talking about the ulil amr all the way through but you know as much as I do that this is not true.

Right okay... Fine.... Lets start with the first part. Yes we have to obey Allah (swt) obey the messenger (pbuh) and the ulil amr. Brither before we move onto the next part could you tell me why Allah (swt) has described the first authority (himself) then the second authority messenger (pbuh) BUT when it came to last authority it just says "those having authority" why did Allah (swt) not specifically describe who the ulil amr in this verse were like he described himself (swt) then the second in authority being the messenger (pbuh).

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Brother you said "why has Allah described himself as the first authority and why has he described the Messenger (pbuh) has the second authority". Brother you need to understand this that, Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), were well known authorities and the standard and level of respect and obedience towards them, was a well known fact. These two supreme authorities, did not and do not require any introduction, about who and what they are. To be continued.

l

Continued. If Allah didn't mention this verse, do you think people would have not been aware about, the standard and level of respect and obedience, towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Come on brother, you and i both know this was and is a well known factor. There was and is no chance of any disagreement and difference, on any matter within this. To be continued.

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Brother just the truth, you want to know why Allah said "And obey those who are in authority among you". Brother i do not believe in this translation "who are in authority or who come in authority". According to me the correct translation is "And obey those who are worthy of authority among you" and this does not necessarily mean that, the people (Muslim ummah) are going to select and accept the one, who is worthy of authority among us.

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Brother you said "why has Allah described himself as the first authority and why has he described the Messenger (pbuh) has the second authority". Brother you need to understand this that, Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), were well known authorities and the standard and level of respect and obedience towards them, was a well known fact. These two supreme authorities, did not and do not require any introduction, about who and what they are. To be continued.

l

Continued. If Allah didn't mention this verse, do you think people would have not been aware about, the standard and level of respect and obedience, towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)??? Come on brother, you and i both know this was and is a well known factor. There was and is no chance of any disagreement and difference, on any matter within this. To be continued.

So hold up... Let me get this straight you said Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh) were well known authorities that's why he mentioned himself (swt) and his messenger (pbuh)!!! HOW NICE... THE TWO AUTHORITIES WHO NEED NO INTRODUCTION ARE ONCE AGAIN INTRODUCED BUT THE THIRD AUTHORITY WHO NEEDS TO BE INTRODUCED FOR THE UMMAH IS NOT GIVEN A PROPER INTRODUCTION!!!

I'm sorry what were you saying about sense and logic???

Brother just the truth, you want to know why Allah said "And obey those who are in authority among you". Brother i do not believe in this translation "who are in authority or who come in authority". According to me the correct translation is "And obey those who are worthy of authority among you" and this does not necessarily mean that, the people (Muslim ummah) are going to select and accept the one, who is worthy of authority among us.

To be honest brother I'm not really interested in how you think it should be translated. The quran is not no normal book which we can twist to our needs. So tell me why the third authority wasn't mentioned like the first two authorities.

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No my friend, i did not say that, Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), were well known authorities, that's why they were mentioned. Nop, not at all. What i said was Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), were allready well known and obedience towards them was crystal clear, to begin with. So what was the need for Allah, to start of the Ulul Amre verse, from himself and his Messenger (pbuh)??? It is absolutely obvious that, Allah wanted the people to understand, the importance of this new message, which was delivered. You are not interested on what i think??? Well what is the point of a discussion, according to you??? To deliberately force your thinking, understanding and explanation on the other??? I have explained this to you on many occasions, to be continued.

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No my friend, i did not say that, Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), were well known authorities, that's why they were mentioned. Nop, not at all. What i said was Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), were allready well known and obedience towards them was crystal clear, to begin with. So what was the need for Allah, to start of the Ulul Amre verse, from himself and his Messenger (pbuh)??? It is absolutely obvious that, Allah wanted the people to understand, the importance of this new message, which was delivered. You are not interested on what i think??? Well what is the point of a discussion, according to you??? To deliberately force your thinking, understanding and explanation on the other??? I have explained this to you on many occasions, to be continued.

My brother I am interested in what you've got to say but I'm trying to make sense of what you're saying.

I'm asking you a very good question.

If Allah (swt) has mentioned himself (swt) and his messenger (pbuh) then why not mention who the ulil amr is??

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My dear brother, like i have said before that, the Quran is the headlines, the large print. If Allah wanted us to just depend and rely on the Quran then, you would have the Quran in the shape of many volumes and then many books. To be continued.

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(bismillah)

 

Statement:

My brother islamic history you have time and time again accused me of coming up with my "own assumptions" but I have told you time and time again that what I believe is the believe of ahle sunnah as a whole. In your previous long reply You said you wanted an answer from either shia or sunni tafsirs. I will give you an answer from sunni side and leave the explanation of the shia side to you. Having said this I will try to refer to shia side whenever I can.

 

My dear brother I did not Claim that I wanted proof from a Sunni Tafsir, I only said this because to make sure you are not providing your own opinions on this issue. And the reason Why I keep repeatedly accusing you of "your own Assumptions" is because you do not stick to your position, but rather move along with that fits or is able to refute my answer, Which by so far you haven't. I Do not know if you understand the meaning of Dialogue as you should know "Di" means two. A simple Debate between two people who can either have similar ideas but different concepts or either a whole Different beliefs. In this you for example to prove your point against my stance you my give proof from our books and not your, thus if you provide from your books, it will not mean nor with anything and you will not be able to prove your point, especially Sahih Bukhari since it is considered a book filled with Mostly Fabricated hadiths from Abu Huraiyara or such. So in order to support your stance you need to refer to our books with clear authentic references as I have referred to your with clear Authentic chains. I have said is this many times that the two books, Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari, contain hadith narrated by liars. If you study Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari in the light of the books of Rijal, you will find that they have recorded many hadith reported from men who were great liars, e.g., Abu Huraira, the notorious liar, Ikrima Kharji, Sulayman Bin Amr, and others of the same category. Bukhari was not so cautious in recording hadith as you think. He did not record the Hadith-e-Thaqalain, which others have done, but he had no hesitation in recording ludicrous and insulting stories about the Prophet Moses slapping the face of the Angel of Death, the Prophet Moses' running away naked after a stone, and Allah's visibility. Consider another ridiculous and insulting story recorded by Bukhari in his Sahih, Volume II, Chapter ""Al-Lahr Bi'l-Harb," page 120, and by Muslim in his Sahih Volume I, quoting Abu Huraira as saying that on the Eid (a holiday) some Sudanese nomads gathered in the Mosque of the Prophet. They entertained spectators with their sport and performances. The Prophet asked A'yesha if she would like to witness the performances. She said she would. The Prophet let her mount on his back in such a way that she had her head over his shoulders and her face on the head of the Prophet. In order to amuse A'yesha, the Holy Prophet was asking the entertainers to stage a better dance. At last A'yesha became tired, and the holy Prophet let her get down on the ground! Judge for yourself whether such a story is not insulting. If Bukhari was so cautious about recording facts, was it fair on his part to record such foolish stories in his Sahih. But even now you characterize these books as the most authentic ones after the Holy Qur'an. Of course Bukhari took special care to omit the matter of the Imamate and the Vicegerency of Ali, as well as the matter of the Ahle Bait. Probably he feared such information might some day be used as a weapon against the opponents of the Ahle Bait. Second of All We have no evidence whether fabricated or otherwise that the Prophet (s) ever foretold of a man called Muhammad Ismail Bukhari appearing in his Ummah with a Hadith book, the contents of which would act as an eternal source of guidance for the believers. The religious instruction left by the Prophet (s) was that we adhere to two things: “I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur’an and my Ahlul’bayt”.

 

-‘Sahih’ according to Imam Al-Albaani in Silsila Sahiha, volume 4 page 355           

 

It is evident from these words that for the purposes of Hadith literature the litmus test for authenticity should be whether traditions have been disseminated on the authority of the Ahl’ul bayt Imams. We ask those with open minds, is Sahih Bukhari replete with Hadith whose origins can be traced back through the Ahl’ul bayt Imams (s)? Certainly not, on the contrary we have learned Sunni testimony that Bukhari consciously sought to avoid taking Hadith from the Ahl’ul bayt Imams (s). Sunni scholar Mufti Ghulam Rasool tried his best to defend his Imam Bukhari whilst addressing the criticism of Abu Zahra that Imam Bukhari did not take Hadith from Imam Sadiq (s), he states as follows:

 

It was not just Imam Sadiq (s) that Imam Bukhari refrained from taking Hadith from, he did not take any from four of the pure Ahlulbayt Imams who existed during his lifetime, namely:

The eighth Imam Ali Raza (s) (d. 208 H), this was that Imam that at one time in Nisahbur had more than twenty thousand scholars who benefited from listening to and sought permission to narrate Hadith, attendees included high ranking Muhadatheen such as Hafiz Abu Zurai Razi (d.264 H), Hafiz Muhammad Aslam Tusi (d.242 H) Ishaq bin Rahwiyah (d.264 H) etc.

The ninth Imam, Imam Taqi (s) (d. 220 H)
The tenth Imam, Imam Naqi (s) (d.245 H)
The eleventh Imam, Imam Hasan Askari (s) (d.260 H)

 

Imam Bukhari lived during the times of these four Imams yet did not take narrations from them. Imam Bukhari’s esteemed book Sahih Bukhari is empty with Hadith from the Ahlulbayt Imams, even though Hadith was something of Ahlulbayt’s own house house of the Prophet and there is a well known saying ‘No one knows the going on inside a house than the people of that house’.

 

Imam Bukhari should have narrated Hadith from the Imams from the Ahlulbayt of the Prophet since they were the source of Hadith. We cannot say that Imam Bukhari did this due to hatred, rather we say that it was due to difficulties that he did not narrate from the Ahlul bayt Imams. Muhammad bin Ismaeel Bukhari (d.256 H) was alive during the Abbaside era, when he compiled Sahih Bukhari, he stated: ‘In Sahih Bukhari the Hadeeth compiled are Sahih and the Sahih Hadiths that I left are much more in number’. Abdul Haleem Jundi said: ‘Imam Bukhari was indicating that the Hadith that he had omitted were those in the honour of Ali and the Ahlul bayt. Imam Bukhari could not incorporate them in his Sahih Bukhari due to the occupation and hostility by Abbaside reign [Jafar al-Sadiq, p234 by al-Jundi” -Subeh Sadiq fi Fadail Imam Jafar Sadiq, pages 195-196

 

Whilst we are at variance with Mufti’s mitigation, namely that this censorship was due to taqiyya and would explain it as bigotry and bias on his part, this text proves that there existed no nexus between Imam Bukhari and the Ahl’ulbayt Imams (as). The same approach of avoidance was adopted by the other Saha Sittah authors.

 

 

Statement:

With this reply inshallah I will try and use authentic hadith as much as possible and directly keep them hadith linked to verse 4:59.

 

Can you please refer to our books when it comes to a debate? A more Formal Academic type would be helpful.

 

 
Statement:
1. I have said from day one that obeying Allah and his messenger  (s) is unconditional and to disobey them can lead to ones ultimate devastation in the hereafter. Here is a verse warning anybody who disobeys Allah  and his messenger (s):

Surah 4:14

And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment.


No such verse exists for disobeying the ulil amr. Also Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has refrained from describing exactly who the ulul amr are, because all it means is "those with authority" and personally to me those with authority could be anyone from a leader to your parents. The whole ummah is unanimous that we have to obey our parents BUT this obedience is conditional. As long as the parents don't tell you do go against sharia:

Surah 31:15

But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance]. Then to Me will be your return, and I will inform you about what you used to do


So in this surah the limits are given that we should disobey them if our parents tell us to go against sharia. So obedience is not always unconditional.

 

 

Reply:
So According to your Logic since there are other verses which contain only Allah and the messenger therefore we must ignore other verses as so. My dear brother this is illogical because if a verse it telling you to only obey Allah and the messenger, does that mean we do not need to obey the Quran? there are various verse we it says we should obey Allah and the messenger, but does that mean we should Exclude all all the other prophets (s)? Does that mean we should not entirely believe in the Angels? yet according to both Sunni and Shia, We must believe in the Angels, Day of judgement, predestination and etc.. But does that mean because of some verse were it only states we should obey Allah and the messenger, does that mean we should Exclude everything ells? I am sorry, but you make no sense it what your trying to point out there. Third of All When it says we must obey they prophet (s), Don't we have to obey Imam Ali (s)? as I mentioned Earlier with clear proof:

 

In Musanad Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, 
By Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, 
Verified and Investigated (commentated)

by Hamza Ahmad Al-Zain, Volume 16, page 28

 

He Said: Narrated by Zaid ibn Thabit, He said, The prophet  (saws) said: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors), The book of Allah Rope between the heavens and the earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar," 

 

The Chain of Narrators, Hadith 21470, "The Chain is Hassan (good)"
 

here is the proof:

 

post-83202-0-69510000-1376640956_thumb.p  post-83202-0-31630100-1376640974_thumb.j 



 

 

Sahih of "Al-Jami" Al Sagheer"

For the Scholar Al-Albani, the 1st Volume, page 482

Hadith 2457,  

The prophet    (pbuh) said: "I am leaving for you two Khalifas (successors), The Book of Allah, rope between the heavens and earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar," 

 

Al- Albani says: " It is a SAHIH (perfect)."

Proof:


 

 

post-83202-0-58410000-1376644804_thumb.p post-83202-0-98360900-1376644808_thumb.p





Ithaf Al Khiyara Al-Mahara",

For the Imam Al-Haafiz Shahaab Ul-Deen Al-Buseeri

Introduced by Sheikh Dr, Ahmad Ma'bad, member of Council of Education in
Imam Muhammad bin Su'ood University, Revised (and reassured) by "dar Al-Mishkat" for Research.
Supervised by Abu Tameem Yassir Ibn Ibrahim, Volume 7, First edition, 1999, Al-Riyadah, Saudi Arabia.

Page 210: In the Door of " In the prophet's quote: 'Whoever I am his mater, Ali is his master.":

 

Narrated By Imam Ali: "The prophet    (pbuh) was there under the tree in (ghadeer) Khum. Then he came out 

and took Ali's Hand and said: 'Don't you testify that Allah is your Lord? they said: 'yes', Then he said: "don't you testify that Allah and his messenger have more right over you, than your own selves, and that Allah and his messenger are your masters?", They said: 'yes'. Then he said: 'whoever God and myself are his mastersthen He (Ali) is his mater. And I left in you that which if you take and Abide by, you would Never go astray,  God's book and My Ahlulbayt."

 

Narrated by Ishaaq, with a SAHIH (perfect) chain of narration

and said by Imam Al Booseeri, 'and the hadith of Ghadeer was directed by Al-Nisai'i.'

 

Proof:

 

post-83202-0-48352800-1376664211_thumb.j post-83202-0-41490500-1376664239_thumb.j

 

    


 

"Al-Jami'i Al-Kabeer" - Sunan Al Tirmidhi,

From Imam Al-Hafidh, revised by Shuaib al-Arnaoot,

Book (part) 6, page 235, Hadith 4120:

 

Narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah: " I Saw the prophet    (pbuh) in pilgrimage as he was on his camel

speaking. So I heard him Say: 'O people, I have left with you that which if you abide by, you will never go astray, God's Book (Quran) and My (holy) Family (Ahlulbayt)." 

 

We look at the footnotes:
 

Al-Arnaoot's view: This hadith is SAHIH (perfect)

Al-Arnaoot says: AL-Sindi in the explanation of "my Ahlulbayt": it was as if

the prophet (pbih) made them (family) equal in importance even to His position. 

'Just as in his    (pbuh) life, it was Him and the Quran, AFTER HIS LIFE, it was his FAMILY (Ahlulbayt) and

the Quran."




Poof:

 

post-83202-0-21710700-1376688577_thumb.p post-83202-0-14836900-1376688590_thumb.jpost-83202-0-08675700-1376688605_thumb.p

 

 

 

 

 

 

Al - Sunnah : By Imam Abi Bakr Ahmad ibn Abi As'aim (287 AH)

Investigated by Dr Al Jawabra, Professor of Hadeeth at  Imam Muhammad Ibn Su'ood, University

Al- Sumai'y Institution  , Volume 2 page 799

 

The Messenger of Allah    (pbuh) said: "Ali your position to me, is like Harun to Mosa, Expect  

that there will be no prophet after me. and that you are Caliph ​of Every believer After me."
 

In Addition, the Hadith before that on the same page, Hadith 1221:

 

The propher  (pbuh) said: "Ali is from me, and I am from Ali, and he is the WALI of every believer after me."

 

HADITH SAHIH AND THE SANAD IS SANAD MUSLIM.


In the commentary: Underneath it:
 

"The Chain of Narrators is Good, and Narrators are the narrators of the TWO SHEIKHS."


Proof:

 

 

post-83202-0-47413500-1376691971_thumb.p post-83202-0-66111200-1376691981_thumb.jpost-83202-0-68438100-1376692007_thumb.p

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Whoever obeys ‘Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys ‘Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

 

 

1. Kanz ul Ummal, hadith numbers 32973-32976
2. Mustadrak al Hakim Volume 3 page 123
3. Riyadh ul Nadira Volume 3 page 110

 

 

 

 

Statement:
Now coming back to ulil amr. You asked me for evidence so I shall give you the best I could find: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 108:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Verse: "Obey Allah and Obey the Apostle and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority." (4.59) was revealed in connection with 'Abdullah bin Hudhafa bin Qais bin 'Adi' when the Prophet appointed him as the commander of a Sariyya (army detachment).

So you see brother the verse was revealed for a fallible and below I shall point out why in the second part of the verse it says refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his messenger  (s) and does not mention the ulil amr when it comes to referring.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 629 :
========================
Narrated by 'Ali

The Prophet sent a Sariya under the command of a man from the Ansar and ordered the soldiers to obey him. He (i.e. the commander) became angry and said "Didn't the Prophet order you to obey me!" They replied, "Yes." He said, "Collect fire-wood for me." So they collected it. He said, "Make a fire." When they made it, he said, "Enter it (i.e. the fire)." So they intended to do that and started holding each other and saying, "We run towards (i.e. take refuge with) the Prophet from the fire." They kept on saying that till the fire was extinguished and the anger of the commander abated. When that news reached the Prophet he said, "If they had entered it (i.e. the fire), they would not have come out of it till the Day of Resurrection. Obedience (to somebody) is required when he enjoins what is good."

So you see my brother obedience to the ulil amr is only required when he enjoins what is good. This is why we should refer to Allah Statementì and his messenger  (s) if the ulil amr tells us to do anything which seems wrong. Later in this reply I will try to go into as much detail as possible as to why there is mention of referring to ulil amr in surah 4:83 and not in 4:59.



Reply: I again Fail to understand what your trying to do here you Gave me one Hadith from the one book that is filled with Fabrications (Proven on the first reply of this post), Second of All I think you "Scan-Read", because Already I have read this and I found many Logical Errors:


Logical Error:

 

(1) The verse 4:59 Uli al mar is not Restricted to one person, since the Word "Uli al Amr" Means various people, Which Puts a Question mark on the Hadith you stated, When a verse that Includes "Many people" as in the terms of  "Uli" which is Jam'a, I find it illogical that it only came down on one person.

(2) The verse it not only for that time, Of so, Why not just say obey the "Ansar" of that particular time? this would make no sense since the verse is not Restricted at all, but it is for All times.

(3) did they not Disobey the prophet (s)? by not entering the fire? So how can the Hadith go against the verse it self?

____________________________________________________________________________________

(4) In a debate you must use proof from the opponents books to where he refer.

(5) Bukhair Among us is Rejected.

 

 (6) Why Would you take Sources from the person who narrates from Ibn Muljam (LA), and the Enemies who fought Imam Hussain (as)?

_____________________________________________________________________________________


Compared to your Hadith I brought Many narrations  on this issue from our books, So you have no reason not to accept since you mentioned from your books I mentioned from Mine and yours.
______________________________________________________________________________________


 

 

Obviously rulers obtain their authority in one of these ways: 

 

1. They are appointed by ijma (consensus)

2. They gain power by force.

3. They are divinely commissioned.

If a leader gains authority by consensus of the community, it is not compulsory to obey him as one obeys Allah or the Prophet. It is not possible for all Muslims to appoint a just ruler since, however wise or conscientious they may be, they can only judge a man by appearance. They cannot read his heart or know the degree of his faith.

 

 

 

Obviously Muslims cannot claim to possess better understanding than the Prophet Moses. He selected seventy men out of several thousand for their apparent integrity and took them with him to Mount Sinai. But all of them, on examination, proved worthless because their faith was not firm. This fact has been referred to in the Holy Qur'an, verse 154 of sura 7.

 

If those selected by Moses proved to be unbelievers at heart, it is obvious that common people would be less competent to choose able rulers for themselves. It is quite possible that those selected for their apparent piety may eventually turn out to be unbelievers. Surely obedience to such rulers would weaken religion.

 

 

 

 

Certainly Allah would not require his servants to obey a sinner as they would obey Him or His Prophet. Moreover, if the appointment of the 'uli'l-amr' were made through a true consensus, an election would have to be held for each new appointment. All citizens of all Muslim nations would have to agree on the choice in every election.

 

During 1300 years of Islam we find that, after the Holy Prophet, no such consensus ever occurred. At present it is impossible to secure such a consensus because the Muslim world has been split up into numerous countries, each with a ruler of its own.

Moreover, if every country should elect an 'uli'l-amr' for itself, there would be numerous 'uli'l-amr,' each to be obeyed within his own country, and the people of one country would not obey the uli'l-amr' of other countries. Of course then there is the question of allegiance when differences arise - as they often have in the last 1300 years - between two 'authorities.' We then have Muslims killing other Muslims in the name of Islam. 

 

But true Islam does not require such absurd behavior which would lead to mutual strife among Muslims. It follows, therefore, that the 'uli'l-amr' whom we are commanded to obey has gained his authority by consensus. 

 

It is equally absurd to suggest that obedience to a tyrant is compulsory. If it were, why do the Sunni ulema condemn the oppressive rulers and caliphs, like Mu'awiya, Yazid, the wicked Ziyad Ibn Abib, Ubaidullah, Hajjaj, Abu Salma, and Muslim.

 

If anyone claims that obedience to wicked rulers is compulsory (and some ulema have really said that), it would be quite contrary to the Qur'anic injunctions. Allah has frequently cursed sinners in the Holy Qur'an and has forbidden Muslims to obey them. So how is it possible that in this verse He would order us to obey sinners? Obviously, we cannot attribute two divergent orders to Allah Almighty. Hence, Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi clearly says regarding this holy verse that the 'uli'l-amr' must possess perfect integrity. Otherwise, Allah would not have linked our duty to obey them with our duty to obey Allah Himself and the Holy Prophet.

 

To us the 'uli'l-amr' must be free from sin and infallible. And since no one except Allah can know the deep reality of the heart, the 'uli'l-amr' must be appointed by Allah. Thus Allah, Who ordains the prophets, also ordains the 'uli'l-amr:' An 'uli'l-amr' obviously must have the same attributes the Holy Prophet had.

 

In this holy verse the word ati'u (obey) has been used twice: He says, "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle." When He speaks of 'uli'l-amr,' He does not use the word 'ati'u' again but uses the conjunction 'and' with 'uli'l-amr.' Linking the words in this way it means that 'uli'l-amr' possess the same merit as the Holy Prophet possesses, except those which are peculiar to the Prophet alone, e.g. 'Wahi' (revelation), prophethood, etc. In short, the qualities of the Holy Prophet should be possessed by the 'uli'l-amr' except of course the rank of prophethood.

 

Accordingly, Shias believe that the words 'uli'l-amr' refer to the twelve Imams, that is Amiru'l-Mu'minin and his eleven descendants, the progeny of the Holy Prophet. This verse is one of the proofs of the Imamate of the twelve Imams.

Apart from this, there are many other verses supporting our point of view. 

 

(1) For instance, the Holy Qur'an says: "He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men." Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant includes not the unjust, said He." (2:124)

 

(2) "The Prophet has a greater claim on the believers than they have on themselves and his wives are (as) their mothers; and blood relations have the better claim in respect of one to the other, according to the book of Allah than (other) believers or the emigrants." (33:6)

(3) "O you who believe! Fear Allah and be (always) with the truthful ones." (9:119)

 

(4) "You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people." (13:7)

 

(5) "And (know) that this is My path, the right one. Therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way. (6:153)

(6) "And of those whom we have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice." (7:181)

 

(7) "And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited." (3:103)

 

(8) "So ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know." (16:43)

 

(9) "Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you with a complete purification." (33:33)

 

(10) "Surely Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and the descendants of Imran above the nations. Offspring, one of the other."(3:33)

 

(11) "Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants." (35:32) 

 

(12) "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, (and) the glass is, as it were, a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive tree, of neither the east or the West, the oil whereof nearly gives light, though fire touch it not." (24:35)

 

There are many other verses which could be quoted. Many of your prominent ulema have reported that the Holy Prophet said, "One fourth of the Holy Qur'an is in praise of the Ahle Bait." 

 

Ibn Abbas is reported to have said, "More than 300 verses were revealed in praise of Ali."

Now, I come to my original point that the 'uli'l-amr' must be infallible because obedience to them is linked with obedience to Allah and the Holy Prophet.

 

Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi in his Tafsir admits that if we do not regard the 'uli'l-amr' as infallible, it would be, in effect, affirming two contradictions as being true. Your own ulema have confirmed that these qualities were possessed exclusively by the twelve Imams. The Holy verse of Purification (33:33) also confirms this fact.

 

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.77, p.445 and Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain report that Ibn Abbas said: "I heard the Holy Prophet saying: ' I and Ali, Hasan, Husain and nine of the descendants of Husain are completely pure and infallible.'"

 

Salman Farsi says that the Holy Prophet, putting his hand on the shoulder of Husain, said: "He is the Imam and the son of the Imam, and of his descendants there will be nine Imams who will all be virtuous trustees of Allah."

 

Zaid Ibn Thabit reports that the Holy Prophet said: "Verily, of Husain's descendants will be born Imams who will be virtuous trustees, infallible judges."

 

Imran Ibn Hasin reports that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are heir to my knowledge. You are the Imam and Caliph after me. You will tell the people what they do not know. You are the father of my grandson and husband of my daughter. Of your descendants there will be infallible Imams."

 

 

Abu Ishaq Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha report from Ibn Abbas that the Holy Prophet said: "My progeny have been created from the same seed from which I have been created. Allah Almighty has bestowed upon them knowledge and wisdom. Woe be to him who rejects them."

 

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha, and the author of Siratu's-Sahaba, report from Hudhaifa Bin Asaid that the Holy Prophet said: "I leave behind for you two weighty things: the book of Allah and my 'Ahle Bait.' If you attach yourselves to these two you will be rescued." Tabrani reports an addition: "Do not reject their authority; otherwise you shall be ruined. Do not show any disrespect toward them or ignore them, or else you shall be destroyed. Do not try to teach them because verily they know better than you do."

 

In other reports Hudhaifa Bin Asaid quotes the Holy Prophet as saying: "After me there will be Imams from my progeny. Their number will be equal to the number of Bani Isra'il's heralds, that is, twelve, of whom nine will be Husain's descendants. Allah has bestowed upon all of them my knowledge and wisdom. So do not teach them because surely they know better than you do. Follow them since they are definitely with truth, and truth is with them." 

 

First my dear brother, this divine book is concise. It contains many general principles but few details, which have been left for the chief commentator, the Holy Prophet, to explain. Allah says: "And whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it; and from whatever he forbids you, keep back." (59:7)

 

Because the names and numbers of the twelve Imams are not mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, some people do not accept them. But on that basis they should reject their own caliphs since no verse of the Holy Qur'an makes any mention of their caliphs, except Ali Bin Abi Talib, or of the Umayyad or Abbasid caliphs, or of the authority vested in the Community to elect a caliph by consensus.

 

Second, if it is necessary to reject anything which is not clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an, then you should reject many of the methods of our worship since there is no mention of their details in the Holy Qur'an.

 
 
The ritual prayer is perhaps the central act of worship in a Muslim's life. The Holy Prophet emphasized its performance. He said: "The ritual prayer is the pillar and protector of religion. If the ritual prayer is accepted, all other religious performances will be accepted. If it is rejected, all other religious performances will also be rejected."
 

Of course, there is no mention in the Holy Qur'an of the number of units (rak'ats) to be performed for each prayer or any of the other specific details regarding how the prayers are to be performed. Does this mean that we should abandon the prayers? The Holy Qur'an simply says: "Establish salat (prayer). There are no details distinguishing required from optional acts. These were explained by the Holy Prophet. 

 

In the same way other commands have been stated in the Holy Qur'an in principle only. Their details, conditions and relevant instructions were explained by the Holy Prophet. Similarly, concerning the Imamate and caliphate, the Holy Qur'an says only: "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those in authority among you." And we are bound to follow the Holy Prophet's order in this regard in the same way we follow his instructions with regard to the details of the ritual prayers.

 

Muslim commentators, whether Sunni or Shia, cannot make their own interpretations of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet said: "If someone gives his own interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, his place is Hell."

 

Accordingly, every sensible Muslim turns to the real interpreter of the Holy Qur'an, the Holy Prophet. For many years I have studied both Sunni and Shia Qur'anic commentary and hadith but have never come across a single hadith in which the Holy Prophet said that 'uli'l-amr' refers to political rulers. On the other hand, the books of both the Sunnis and Shias contain numerous reports that the Holy Prophet was asked to indicate the meaning of 'uli'l-amr' and he replied that 'uli'l-amr' referred to Ali and his eleven descendants. I will present only some of the few of these numerous hadith which I have posted on the previous post "Appointing A Successor", and remember these are Authentic Sources.


 

 

1) Abu Ishaq Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini Ibrahim Bin Muhammad writes in his Fara'idu's-Simtain: "The Prophet told us that 'uli'l-amr' refers to Ali Bin Abi Talib and the Ahle Bait of the Holy Prophet." 

 

(2) 'Isa Bin Yusuf Hamadani reports from Abu'l-Hasan and Salim Bin Qais, who report from Amiru'l-Mu'minin Ali that the Holy Prophet said: "My associates are those whose obedience has been linked by Almighty Allah with His own obedience. It is they to whom He refers when He says 'Those in authority from among you.' It is necessary that you not oppose what they say. You should obey them and follow their orders." Amiru'l-Mu'minin goes on to say, "When I heard this, I said: "O Prophet, let me know who the 'uli'l-amr' are." The Prophet said: "O Ali! You are the first of them."

 

(3) Muhammad Bin Mu'min Shirazi, one of the most eminent Sunni religious scholars, writes in his Risala-e-I'tiqadat that when the Holy Prophet appointed Amiru'l-Mu'minin his representative in Medina, the verse "uli'l-amr-e-Minkum" (And those in authority from among you) was revealed in reference to Ali Bin Abi Talib.

 

(4) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Ch.38, reports from Manaqib that it is stated in Tafsir-e-Mujahid that this verse was revealed in reference to Amiru'l-Mu'minin when the Prophet appointed him as his representative in Medina. The Holy Imam said: "O Holy Prophet of Allah! Have you appointed me Caliph over women and children?" Then the Holy Prophet said: "Are you not content that you have the same relation to me as Aaron had to Moses?"

 

(5) Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini reports Salim Bin Qais Hilali as saying the following: During Uthman's caliphate, I saw some Muhajirs and Ansars sitting together praising themselves. Ali was silent among them. The people asked Ali to speak. He said: "Do you not know that the Holy Prophet said: 'I and my Ahle Bait were one light, which existed in His creation 14,000 years before the creation of Adam? When He created Adam, He placed that light in his spine when he came down to the earth. Then He placed it in Noah in his ark; then in Abraham's spine while he was in the fire; similarly in the pure spines of fathers and in the pure wombs of mothers, none of whom were born unlawfully." Those in the group who were foremost in the battles of Badr and Hunain said: "Yes, we have heard these words." Then Ali said, "Tell me on oath whether you know that in the Holy Qur'an Allah has given preference to the foremost ones,

and that in Islam no one equals me in merit." They said, "Yes, we acknowledge this."

 

Then Ali recited from the Holy Qur'an: "And the foremost are the foremost; these are they who are drawn nigh (to Allah)." (56:10-11) He said: "When this verse was revealed, the people asked the Holy Prophet who were the foremost ones, and about whom the verse was revealed. Now tell me on oath if you know that the Holy Prophet told them that Allah Almighty revealed this verse about the prophets and their vicegerents. I am foremost among all the prophets and Ali, my wasi (vicegerent) is foremost among all the vicegerents?"

 

Then Ali said: "The Holy Qur'an tells us, 'Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those vested with authority from among you' (4:59) and the verse 'Verily, verily your guardian is (none else but) Allah and His Prophet (Muhammad) and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate, while bowing down (in prayer).' (5:55) and the verse 'have not taken anyone as an adherent besides Allah and His Apostle and the believers.' (9:16) Allah subsequently ordered His Holy Prophet to identify who was meant by the words 'uli'l-amr' (those vested with authority) in the same way as the ritual prayer, fasting and the Hajj had been clarified. Accordingly, at Ghadir-e-Khum the Holy Prophet appointed me over the people and declared: 'O people when Almighty Allah commissioned me to prophethood I felt apprehension that people would oppose me.'

Then the Holy Prophet continued: 'O people, do you know that Allah Most High is my Master? I enjoy more mastery over the selves of the believers than they have over themselves?' 

 

When all confirmed that it was so, the Holy Prophet announced: 'Of whomsoever I am the master, Ali is his master; O Allah be a friend of him who is a friend of Ali and be an enemy of him who is an enemy of Ali.'

Then Salman stood up and asked: 'O Holy Prophet what is the significance of Ali's mastery?' The Holy Prophet replied: 'Ali's mastery is like my own mastery. Of whomsoever I am the master Ali is also his master.'

 

Then the verse was revealed: 'This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.' (5:3) Thereupon the Holy Prophet said: 'Allah is Great, Who has perfected the religion, completed His favor upon me, and is satisfied with my prophethood and is satisfied with Ali being the vicegerent after me.'"

 

This hadith confirms those hadith which I related during past nights to show that 'master' connotes complete mastery over more than one's own.

 

"The people then said: 'O Holy Prophet tell us the names of your vicegerents.' The Holy Prophet said: 'They are Ali, who is my brother, my successor, and my vicegerent and the master of every believer after me; then his son, Hasan, then Husain, then nine successive sons of Husain. The Holy Qur'an is with them and they are with the Holy Qur'an. They will not separate from it, and it will not separate from them until they reach me at the Pool of Kauthar.'"

 

After recording the full report, he has recorded three other reports from Manaqib narrated by Salim Bin Qais, Isa Bin Sirri, and Ibn Mu'awiya showing that the words 'uli'l-amr' refer to the twelve Imams of the 'Ahle Bait.'

 

I believe that the above reports are enough to clarify the real meaning of 'uli'l-amr.' As for the number and names of the Holy Imams, I will relate hadith narrated by eminent Sunni scholars, without referring, as has been my practice, to the many reports by Shia scholars.

 


Statement:
Firstly brother if this verse is talking about your imams then you have a serious problem because in verse 4:59 you said we cannot refer to the prophet (s) because he isn't here whereas I've argued with you from day one that the prophet (s) can be referred to through his authentic narrations, which is the method used by ahle sunnah when we come across any problems with our ulil amr.This is why ahle sunnah believe the prophet (s) is thee guide even today through his narrations and anybody including your 12 imams who you call your guides are actually secondary guides as they are themselves following guidance of the prophet (s). So the prophet (s) is the Warner and the guide and ali a.s is the secondary guide, but you believe the prophet (s) was only a Warner and ali a.s was the guide. 



(1) How Much Do you insist on Repeating your self? As I have Proven to you that the prophet (s) is the Warner and Imam Ali (s) is the guide, so can you please mention the Same hadith from our books with Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar? I don't think so.

(2) No For the last time, I did not say I do not Believe that the prophet (s) is not a guide, yes I said he is a Guide, but the Guide of the Ummah after him is Imam Ali (s) and the Imams After him (s). I explained it above.




Statement:
So in this verse we have to refer to ulil amr AND messenger. If it said prophet (s) OR ulil amr then this would have worked for you because it would mean that we could refer to the ulil amr if the prophet (s) was no longer around.

 

 

No my dear brother its "And" and not "or"

 

Shakir

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.

 

The Other Translation are mistaken, because if it was "or" it Would have been "او" but Rather it says "و" which Means And.

Perhaps Revise some Arabic, I infact Explained the same issue on the Post about the Successor of Solomon.



 

 

Statement:
So by using your theory that we can only refer to the prophet (s) while he is alive then this verse would have only worked for you until the messenger (s) was alive because we are ordered in this verse to refer to BOTH ulil amr and prophet (s).

 

 

And as I explained earlier my dear friend if we were to refer to the prophet (s) we would Refer to what he said. And In that means we must obey him, and the prophet (s) left a Khalifa after him who was appointed in the Day of Ghadir Who is Imam Ali (s). And Now your going to Reject the Existence of Imam Mahdi (S) which I have made a post for you ( please go to the previous post) Which you never bothered to open.



Would you like to tell me Who is your Uli al amr today?

No please go a head tell me and explain your stance.


  


Statement:
As Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has told that they should have referred it to ulil amr then this only proves that the difference was not with the ulil amr but between normal believers. So it would make perfect sense to mention both ulil amr and messenger (s). If any difference takes place between believers then the first thing we would do is refer it to the ulil amr this is obvious.

 

If they Differ in everything this would also Include bad news/good News and so one, Unless you are able to distinguish the between the meaning when the Quran meant everything they Differ in. Even So, When One gets bad news/Good news there would be a Certain Action towards it, and that action should be refer to the Quran? Don't you think? No doubt it should but Who knows the Quran better than Prophet Muhammad (s) and the Uli al Amr (s)?
   

We read:
 

وَيَقُولُونَ طَاعَةٌ فَإِذَا بَرَزُواْ مِنْ عِندِكَ بَيَّتَ طَائِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ غَيْرَ الَّذِي تَقُولُ وَاللَّهُ يَكْتُبُ مَا يُبَيِّتُونَ فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلاً4:81
أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا4:82
وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُواْ بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُولِي الأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لاَتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً4:83
فَقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ لاَ تُكَلَّفُ إِلاَّ نَفْسَكَ وَحَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَكُفَّ بَأْسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَاللَّهُ أَشَدُّ بَأْسًا وَأَشَدُّ تَنكِيلاً4:84
 
4:81And they say: "Obedience." But when they go out from your presence, a party of them hatch by night apian other than what you say; and Allah writes down what they hatch by night, therefore turn aside from them and trust in Allah, and Allah is sufficient as a protector.
 
4:82Do they not then meditate on the Qur'an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
 
4:83And when there comes to them news of security or fear, they spread it; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who (can) draw out the truth in it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Satan, save a few.
 
4:84Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardour; maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve, and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
 
 
I doubt you read My last post, On this issue, So I will Quote my self again:

 
 
 
 

 

The verses are not without some connection with the preceding ones. Apparently, they supplement the previous talk which had admonished the Muslims of weak faith. It aims at exhorting them in a manner that would open their eyes, if they pondered and reflected.

 

QUR'AN: And they say: "Obedience."...: Obedience is predicate of a deleted subject, as the scholars have said; and the full sentence is, 'Our business is obedience', that is, 'We obey you totally.' al-Buruz (to go out); at-tabyit (to hatch an evil plan by night); the phrase translated here as, "other than what you say," may also be rendered as, other than what they say.

 

The verse says - and Allah knows better: When you call them to jihad, they say to you that they will obey you totally in all matters. But when they go out of your presence, they plan at night to do opposite of what they had told you or opposite of what you had told them. It is reflection on their determination to act against the orders of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.). Then Allah tells His Messenger to turn aside from them and have trust in Allah, as He says: "therefore turn aside from them and trust in Allah, and Allah is sufficient as a protector."

 

There is no proof that the verse speaks about the hypocrites, as some exegetes have claimed; the continuation of the context shows that the talk is about the same believers of weaker faith mentioned above.

 

QUR'AN: Do they not then meditate on the Qur'an?...: It is an exhortation in the form of 'question'. at-Tadabbur(translated here as meditation) literally means to take one thing after another. In this verse it may mean to ponder on one verse after another; or, to ponder on a verse repeatedly. However, as it aims at showing that there was no discrepancy in the Qur'an, and it naturally means looking at more than one verse, the former explanation (pondering on one verse after another) seems more appropriate, although the latter cannot be ruled out completely.

 

It is an exhortation for them to ponder on the Qur'anic verses. Whenever they want to look at a revealed order, an expended wisdom, a story, an admonition or any other themes, they must look at all the relevant verses, of the Meccan period or Medinite, the decisive and the ambiguous; then they should put them all together to realize that there was no discrepancy or contradiction at all. Rather it will be seen that the earlier verses verify the later ones, and each confirms the other - without a trace of any imaginable discrepancy. There is no contradiction: nowhere a verse negates another, nor do they oppose one another. There is no disharmony: no two verses are symmetrical in beauty of style or firmness of meanings and themes, because no part of it is weaker or less perfect than the other. It is a Book confirming in its various parts, oft-repeating, whereat do shudder the skins.

 

This total absence of discrepancy will make them believe that the Qur'an is a Book revealed by Allah, and no one else. If it were from someone else, it could not avoid a lot of discrepancy. Everything found in this universe - and especially man, who the doubters allege, has written this Book - in its very existence and by its nature is founded on constant movement and change; is always in pursuit of perfection. Every single entity in this world in its life's journey passes through different stages and acquires varying dimensions.

 

It is hard to find a man who does not think that today he is wiser than he was yesterday. Everyone believes that the work he has done or the opinion he has formed lately is much better and reasonable than the one he had had earlier. Even you ponder on a single but prolonged work, like a book written, a poem composed or a lecture delivered, you will find that its last portion is better than the first, or that some parts excel the others in quality.

 

No man is free from discrepancy and difference in his work, or even in his own self; and it is not one or two differences or contradictions, but a lot. This is a common trend running throughout the world (including man) which is governed by the laws of gradual change and general advancement towards perfection. Nothing in this creation remains in one condition for two consecutive moments; its specificity and situation constantly change.

 

This shows the true significance of the word 'many' in "many a discrepancy". It is an explanatory adjective, not a restrictive one. It says: If this Qur'an were from someone other than Allah, they would have found discrepancy in it, and those discrepancies would have been in a large quantity, because it is the intrinsic nature of everything which emanates from other than Allah. In other words, the verse negates all discrepancies, whether a few or many; not that it denies only 'numerous discrepancies' leaving the door open for a few contradictions.

 

In short, one who meditates on the Qur'an will at once realize that it is a book which deals with all the affairs related to humanity. It ex­pounds the knowledge of genesis and resurrection; creation and exist­ence; it explains the general human virtues, and lays down the social and personal laws which encompass the whole human species and guide them in all big and small affairs; then there are stories, lessons and sermons. And all this in such an excellent and succinct style that it challenged the whole world to bring its like. [Then, this book was not written all together in a short period;] it is made up of verses which were revealed piece-meal in a long period of twenty three years, in [different times and] various conditions: at night and in day time, in heat of war and tranquility of peace, in good days and bad, in hard­ship and ease; [but its excellence remained unaffected]. There never was any change in its miraculous and supernatural rhetoric, nor any discrepancy in its excellent knowledge and sublime wisdom, nor in its social and personal laws. Its later parts agree with what its earlier parts had established, and its details and branches are consistent with its roots and stems.

Analyze its laws and rules and you will find them firmly based on pristine monotheism; and that monotheism when looked vis-a-vis divinely gifted wisdom appears in the details of shari 'ah. So this is the Qur'an.

 

A man, pondering on it in this manner, is bound to admit because of his vital intelligence and natural discernment - that this book was not written by someone who was subject to change and gradual development which permeate the universe, nor was he affected by passage of time. This is nothing but the speech of Allah, the One, the Subduer.

 

The verse shows that

1. The Qur'an is within the reach of the normal understanding.

2. The Qur'anic verses explain one another.

3. The Qur'an is a Book which is not liable to abrogation or nullification; it does not need any completion or refinement; no one has any authority to judge or control it. Because, it is subject to these things, naturally it will have to undergo change and alternation; but inasmuch as the Qur'an is free from discrepancy, it cannot admit any change or alternation. Consequently, it is not liable to abrogation, nullification, etc. It follows that theshari'ah of Islam will continue up to the Day of Resurrection.

QUR'AN: And when there comes to them news of security or fear, they spread it: al-Idha'ah (to publish, to spread, to an­nounce). The verse contains a sort of condemnation and reproach to them for this rumor-mongering. The following sentence, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Satan, save a few, clearly shows that the be­lievers were in danger of going astray because of this adverse propaganda. The danger was of disobeying the Prophet (s.a.w.); because this is the theme of these verses. This view is supported by the next verse where the Prophet is ordered to fight the disbelievers even if he remained alone without any helper.

All this together proves that the "news of security or fear" refers to the false rumors which the disbelievers' agents used to bring to Medina for creating disharmony and discord among the believers; and the believers of weaker faith spread it without thinking over it. This in its turn caused loss of courage and vigor in the believers. However, Allah saved them from following those satans who had brought such news for discouraging the believers.

These verses fit completely on the events of the Lesser Badr, which was described in the chapter of "The House of'Imran". The verses agree in theme with those in that chapter, as will be clear on meditation. Allah says there: (As for) those who responded to the call of Allah and the Messenger (even) after the wound had afflicted them, those among them who do good (to others) and guard (against evil) shall have a great reward. Those to whom the people said: "Surely men have gathered against you, therefore fear them"; but this (only)increased their faith, and they said: "Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent Protector is (He)". So they returned with favor from Allah and (His) grace; no evil touched them and they followed the 
pleasure of Allah; and Allah is the Lord of the mighty grace. That is only the Satan that frightens his friends; so do not fear them, and fear,
Me if you are Believers (3:172-5).

As you see, these verses describe how the Messenger of Allah , (s.a.w.) was calling the people, "after the wound had afflicted them" : in the calamity of Uhud, to come with him to meet the disbelievers,  -and how some people were demoralizing the believers, trying to turn them away from the Prophet (s.a.w.) and frightening them that the polytheists were gathered together against the believers. Then, the verses assert that all this was a plan of the Satan who spoke through his friends; and exhort the believers not to fear the Satan and his friends; rather they should fear Allah if they were believers.

Ponder on these verses and then again on the verses under discussion (And when there comes to them news of security or fear ...). You will find no room for doubt that the verses under discussion too describe the same episode of the lesser Badr. The Qur'an includes that episode in the list of the behaviors for which it blames the believers of the weaker faith. For example: but when fighting was prescribed for them...; "Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?"... and if a benefit comes to them...; And they say: "Obedience". And then it goes on to say in the same tone: "And when there comes to them news of security or fear, they spread it."

 

QUR'AN: and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who (can) draw out the truth of it, would have known it: Here they are not required to refer it to Allah as was done in the preceding verse 59: then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you believe in Allah and the last day. It is because in that verse the talk was about a disputed legislative order; and on one has any authority in that field except Allah and His Messenger. But in the verse under discussion they are told to refer a news of security or fear, and such a news cannot be referred to Allah and His book; the people who could decide about it were the Messenger and those in authority among them. If the news were referred to them they could find out its reality and explain to the believers whether it was true or false, right or wrong.

The knowledge [in "would have known"] means distinguishing truth from falsehood and right from wrong; it is the same connotation as is found in the verses: that Allah might know who fears Him in secret(5:94); And most certainly Allah will know those who believe, and most certainly He will know the hypocrites(29:11).

 

al-Istinbat (to draw out a talk from ambiguity to distinctness and knowledge); it is derived from an-nabat (to gush out, to stream forth). The phrase, "those among them who (can) draw out the truth of it", may point to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) and those in authority; that they may investigate the matter and find out the truth. Or, it may point to those who are required to refer it to the Messenger and the people of authority; in that case, it would mean that the believers would know the truth as shown by the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) and those in authority.

 

According to the former interpretation (which is the obvious meaning of the verse), the verse says that the Messenger and the people of authority will distinguish the truth if they draw out the reality, that is, if they think that doing so is in the interest of the religion and society. According to the second interpretation, it will mean: Those believers who ask and are eager to know the truth of the matter will know it [from the Messenger and the people of authority].

The phrase, ulu'l-amr (= those vested with authority; those in authority) has the same connotations in the preceding verse 59: O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you. As described there, the exegetes have differed much in the explanation of this phrase; however mainly there are five interpretations. The meaning which we have mentioned here is more obvious from this verse [as is explained below].

1. The view that ulu'l-amr means the leaders of the fighting detachments is not relevant here. Those leaders had no authority except over a particular band of fighters in a particular combat; they had no knowledge or authority beyond that. But the verse here talks about something much bigger and more important: Disturbance of security, spreading of fear and general fright which the polytheists caused by infiltrating spies and secret agents who spread rumors to demoralize the believers. What concern the leaders of fighting bands had with such matters? How could they explain the truth or otherwise of such news if the people referred it to them?

 

2. The opinion that ulu'l-amr means scholars is equally irrelevant. The scholars - and in that era they were the narrators of tradi­tions, jurisprudents, reciters of Qur'an and theologians - had expertise in tradition, jurisprudence, etc. But this verse speaks about matters of security and general feeling of terror; it is concerned with such news which was deeply connected with political affairs, which if ignored or wrongly handled could disturb the Muslims' lives and result in such sociological calamities which no reformer could ever put right. It could nullify the nation's endeavors in the path of its felicity; or could rob them of their supremacy and make them prey of humiliation and degradation, or leave them to be killed or imprisoned. What expertise did the scholars - in their capacity as narrators of traditions, experts of jurisprudence or reciters of Qur'an and so on - have in these matters, that Allah would order the people to refer such news to them? How could they solve such problems in the political arena?

 

3. The opinion that it refers to the 'rightly guided' caliphs (Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and 'Ali) is more baseless. First of all, there is no proof for it in the Book of Allah or a definitely accepted tradition. Secondly, we have a right to ask: Was the order given in this verse limited to the time of the Prophet (s.a.w.)? Or, was it general - for his time as well as after him? If it was meant for his time only, then the four personalities should have been known as the people of authority to all the people and particularly to the Companions of the Prophet; but the history and traditions do not record any such especial

status for them at all. In case it was valid for the post-Prophetic era too, then its validity was bound to expire after those four caliphs had passed away. If so, then the verse should have contained some indication to that effect as is the case with other verses which announce some especial rules for the Prophet (s.a.w.); but the verse does not hint at any such limitation.

 

4. The interpretation of ulu'l-amr as the people who 'tie and open', the influential persons, is equally out of place. Such exegetes know that there was no group, in the days of the Prophet (s.a.w.), known as ahlu'l-halli wa'l-'aqd, like other civilized societies which do have well-defined committees and councils, e.g. cabinet of ministers, delegations sent to conferences, etc. At that time the only rule implemented in the ummah was of Allah and His Messenger. This difficulty complied him to say that ulu'l-amr were those Companions whose advice was sought and whom the Prophet (s.a.w.) consulted.

But, the fact remains that the Prophet (s.a.w.) included in his consultations not only the believers but even hypocrites like 'Abdullah ibn Abi and his band. The story of his consultation in the battle of Uhud is well-known. How can Allah order the believers to refer such sensitive news to such people?

Moreover, no one denies that 'Abdu 'r-Rahman ibn 'Awf was among those who had this status in the life of the Prophet (s.a.w.) and even after him. And these verses, which admonish the believers of weaker faith and put them to shame for what they had done, have begun with exposing him and his group in these words: Have you not seen those to whom it was said: "Withhold your hands..." This tradition has been narrated by an-Nasa'i (in his as-Sahih), al-Hakim (in his al-Mustadrak, declaring that it is a correct tradition) and at-Tabari and others in their books of tafsir (commentary). And the said traditions have been given under "Traditions" under the preceding verses. Keeping this in view, how can one say that the believers were ordered to refer this matter to such people?

 

Now, remains only the fifth interpretation which we had preferred under the verse: obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you... (4:59). [That is: The ulu'l-amr are the Twelve sinless successors of the Holy Prophet, s.a.w.]

QUR'AN: and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and his mercy, you would have certainly followed the Satan save a few: As
stated earlier, the verses apparently point to the events of the lesser Badr when Abu Sufyan had sent Na'im ibn Mas'ud al-Ashja'i to Medina to spread fear and fright among the people in order that they should not go forth to Badr. Hence, following of Satan means accept­ance of the said news and failure to go to Badr.

 

In that case, the exception, "save a few", is quite in place; there is no need to strive artfully and stretch its meaning. Na'im had informed the Muslims that Abu Sufyan had gathered many groups and readied huge armies; therefore the Muslims should not go out to fight against them, otherwise they (the Muslims) would beannihilated. This rumor demoralized the people and they offered many excuses for not going to Badr. Only the Prophet and a few persons nearest to him remained steadfast, and it is they who are mentioned in the exception phrase, "save a few". Most of the people had wavered and tried to avoid going out, except a few steadfast ones; then some more joined them and the group proceeded out.

 

This interpretation of the exception clause is supported by the earlier-mentioned context and association, and the meaning is quite clear.

The exegetes have, however, interpreted this clause in various artful ways, none of them free from distortion or misrepresentation. For example:

1. The grace and mercy of Allah points to the divine guidance which led them to the obedience of Allah, His Messenger and those in authority; and the excepted 'few' refers to the good-natured pure-hearted believers. Thus, the verse means: If Allah had not guided you to the obedience by ordering you to refer the matter to those in authority, you would certainly have followed the Satan by falling into error and going astray, except a few good-natured believers among you who would not have deviated from truth and goodness.

 

COMMENT: This interpretation confines the divine grace and mercy to a certain order while there is no reason for such restriction. It is not in keeping with the Qur'anic style. Moreover, the verse apparently describes Allah's favor for something which had already passed and was completed.

2. The verse means what it apparently says. The believers of weaker faith need extra grace and mercy from Allah, although the sincere ones too cannot manage without divine care.

 

COMMENT: If it is its apparent meaning, then the Qur'an, in its sublime literary style, must have rebutted it here and now. But it has not. Allah says: and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure (24:21); and He says to His Prophet (s.a.w.) who was the best of the human beings: And had it not been that We had already established you, you would certainly have been near to incline to them a little; in that case We would certainly have made you to taste a double (punishment) in this life and a double (punishment) after death... (17:74-75).

3. The divine grace and mercy means the Qur'an and the Prophet (s.a.w.).

 

4. It means the victory. The exception then is perfectly in place; because the majority stands firm on truth only when their hearts are happy as a result of victory and similar [worldly] benefits, which prove to them that God cares for them. Otherwise, if they were to taste bitter truth, then only a few believers would submit to it, that is, those only who might be having deep insight of the religion.

 

5. The exception, "save a few", is related to the verb, "they spread it".

 

6. No. It is related to the verb: who (can) draw out the truth of it.

 

7. The exception is in word only; it actually has the connotation of comprehensiveness. Thus the verse actually means: 'and were it not for the divine grace and mercy, all of you would have certainly followed the Satan'. It is not unlike the verse: We will make you recite so you shall not forget, except what Allah pleases (87:6-7). Because in this case too, the exception emphasizes the comprehensiveness of 'not forgetting'.

 

COMMENT: All these explanations are merely literary affection and trickery.

 

QUR'AN: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardour... exemplary punishment: at-Taklif ' is derived from al-kulfah (discomfort, hardship) and means imposition of duty and responsibility, because the person concerned undergoes hardship in discharging his duties. at-Tankil is derived from an-nakal (exemplary punishment). According to Majma 'u'l-bayan, it means: a punishment which discourages the guilty from committing that error again and makes him into a lesson to others; in short, a punishment fear of which prevents people from doing such mischief in future.

 

"Fa" (then, so) in "Fight then in Allah's way" signifies that the order to fight, [even alone, if necessary] is based on the sum-total of the preceding verses, that is, the people's apathy and lethargy in going forth to face the enemy. It is clearly reflected in the sentences that follow: "this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself..." The meaning, therefore, is as follows: As they are lethargic concerning jihad and are unwilling to fight, then you, O Messenger of Allah! should fight the unbelievers on your own; do not be disheartened because of their apathy and disobedience of the divine command; you will not be asked about their obligation, you are responsible only for your own duties. As for the others, your only responsibility is to exhort and rouse them to fight. Therefore, you go forth for fighting and at the same time rouse the believers to ardor. May be, in this way Allah will prevent the unbelievers from fighting. The sentence, "this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself, actually means, 'except concerning your own deed'. In other words, there is in this excepted clause a deleted first construct of possessive case.

 

"may be Allah will restrain...": It was mentioned that'asa (may be) expresses hope. That hope can be found in the mind of the speaker, or the addressee, or it may arise because of the situtation. As such, there is no need to assert that 'may be', when used by Allah, denotes certainty.

Through this verse, Allah further reviles those people who showed apathy towards jihad until Allah ordered His Prophet to go forth for fighting alone; and told him to turn aside from those sluggish people. He should not exhort them to answer the call for jihad; rather he should leave them alone. He should not be discouraged by their behavior. His only responsibility is in relation to his own self; apart from that, he should rouse the believers to ardor - and then let him who wants answer the call, and him who wants disobey Allah and His Prophet.

 

Traditions[al-Kulayni narrates] through his chains from Muhammad ibn 'Ajlan that he said: "I heard Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) saying: 'Allah had put some people to shame because of their spreading [rumors], as He, the Mighty, the Great, says: And when there comes to them news of security or fear, they spread it. Therefore, take care not to spread [rumors]'." (al-Kafi)

 

Also he narrates from 'Abdu'l-Hamid ibn Abi 'd-Daylam from Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) that he said: "Allah, the Mighty, the Great, has said: Obey Allah and the Messenger and those vested with authority from among you; also He has said: and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who (can) draw out the truth in it would have known it. Thus He has returned the people to ulu'l-amrfrom among them, ordering them (the people) to obey them (ulu'l-amr) and refer all affairs to them." (ibid.)

The author says: This hadith supports the explanation given by us that ulu'l-amr in this verse refers to the same Imams who were mentioned in the 59th verse.

'Abdullah ibn 'Ajlan narrates from Abu Ja'far (a.s.) about the words of Allah: and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, that he (the Imam, a.s.) said: "They are the Imams." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

 

The author says: This meaning has also been narrated from 'Abdullah ibn Jundab from ar-Rida (a.s.) in a letter which the Imam (a.s.) had written about al-Waqifiyyah. The same meaning is narrated by al-Mufid in al-lkhtisasfrom Ishaq ibn 'Ammar from as-Sadiq (a.s.), inter alia, in a long tradition.

Muhammad ibn al-Fudayl narrates from Abu'l-Hasan (a.s.) about the word of Allah: and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, that [the Imam, a.s.] said: "Grace is the Messenger of Allah and His mercy is the Commander of the Believers." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

Zurarah has narrated from Abu Ja'far (a.s.), and Humran from Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.), that they said: "Allah's grace is His Messenger and His mercy is al-wilayah (love and obedience) of the Imams." (ibid.)

 

Muhammad ibn al-Fudayl narrates from al-'Abdu 's-Salih [the 7th Imam, a.s.] that he said: "The mercy is the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) and the grace, 'Ali ibn Abl Talib (a.s.)." (ibid.)

 

The author says: These traditions are based on the flow of the Qur'an; and they explain the divine grace and mercy in terms of messengership and imamate. These are the two connected ropes with which Allah has rescued us from the pit of straying and the trap of the Satan. One of them is the source of bringing the Truth, while the other is the means of keeping it alive. The last tradition is more in keeping with the Qur'anic point of view, because Allah has named His Messenger (s.a.w.) 'Mercy', as He says in His book: And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the world (21:107).

'Ali ibn Hadid narrates through Murazim from Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) that he said: "Allah imposed a duty on the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) which He had not imposed on anyone before him; then he imposed on him to go forth all alone against all the people, even if he did not find any group to stand by him; and He had not obliged anyone before or after him to do so." Then he recited this verse: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself. Then the Imam (a.s.) said: "And Allah granted him to take for himself what Allah has taken for Himself. Thus Allah, the Mighty, the Great, says: Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it." And likewise He has made salawatfor the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) (equal to) ten good deeds." (al-Kafi)

 

Sulayman ibn Khalid says: "I informed Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about what the people said concerning 'Air (a.s.): 'If he had any right then what prevented him from standing up for it?' (The Imam, a.s.) said: 'Verily Allah has not imposed such duty to anyone except the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) as He says: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor. So, this is not except for the Messenger; and He has said about the others: [And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day] unless he turns aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company... ; and at that time there was no group to support him ('Ali, a.s.) in his affair'." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

 

Zayd ash-Shahham narrates from Ja'far ibn Muhammad (peace be on both) that he said: "The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) never said 'No' when he was asked for anything. If he had it, he gave it; if he did not have it, he said: 'It will be if Allah so wishes'; and he never took revenge of any evil (done to him); and he never met any expedition but he himself was on head of it - ever since the verse was revealed to him: Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself, (ibid.)

 

The author says: There are other traditions too of the same meaning.

-Tafsir Al Mizan.

 

(salam)

 

 


Previous Posted Evidence of Ghadir Khum:

 

(1) “It is narrated by Bara’ bin ‘azib ®: We were on a journey with Allah’s Messenger (s). (On the way) we stayed at Ghadir Khum. There it was announced that the prayer was about to be offered. The space under two trees was cleaned for Allah’s Messenger (s). Then he offered the zuhr (noon) prayer, and, holding ‘Ali’s hand, he said: Don’t you know that I am even nearer than the lives of the believers? They said: Why not! He said: Don’t you know that I am even nearer than the life of every believer? They said: Why not! The narrator says that he said while holding ‘Ali’s hand: One who has me as his master has ‘Ali as his master. O Allah! Befriend the one who befriends him (‘Ali) and be the enemy of one who is his enemy. The narrator says that after this ‘Umar (bin al-Khattab ®) met ‘Ali ® and said to him: O Ibn Abi Talib! Congratulations, you have become the master of every male and female believer, morning and evening (for ever).”
 
Ahmad bin Hambal related it from Bara’ bin ‘azib through two different chains of
transmission in al-Musnad (4:281); Ibn Abi Shaybah, al-Musannaf (12:78 # 12167);
Muhib Tabari, Dhakha’ir-ul-‘uqba fi manaqib dhawi al-qurba (p.125), ar-Riyad-unnadrah
fi manaqib-il-‘ashrah (3:126, 127); Hindi, Kanz-ul-‘ummal (13:133, 134 #
36420); Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq al-kabir (5:167, 168); Ibn Athir, Asad-ulghabah
(4:103); and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidayah wan-nihayah (4:169; 5:464)]
The Ghadir Declaration, page 25 
 
(2) On the day of Ghadir the Messenger of Allah summoned the people toward ‘Ali and said: “Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel and came to Madinah and went to the Messenger of Allah (s) and said to him: “You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you. You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed. You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed. Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to Makkah and we obeyed. But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying `Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.’ Is this imposition from Allah or from you?” The Prophet (s) said: “By Allah who is the only deity! This is from Allah, the Mighty and the Glorious.”
On hearing this Harith turned back and proceeded towards his she-camel saying: “O Allah! If what Muhammad said is correct then fling on us a stone from the sky and subject us to severe pain and torture.” He had not reached his she-camel when Allah, who is above all defects, flung at him a stone which struck him on his head, penetrated his body and passed out through his lower body and left him dead. It was on this occasion that Allah, the exalted, caused to descend the following verses:

“A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of the Ascent.”(70:1-3)
 
sources:

  • al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din Ali bin Burhan ud-din al-Halabi, v3, part 2, page 336 & 337.
  • Al-Kashaf wal Bayan fi Tafsir al Quran by Abu Ishaq Thalabi, commentary of verse 70:1-3. The Tafsir can be downloaded from Wahabi/Salafi website
    Download from almeshkat.net
  • Nur al-Absar, Shaykh Shiblanji, p119
  • Mufti Ghulam Rasool quoted the same incident from ‘Tadkiratul Khawwas’ page 39 in his book
    Imam Zain al Abdeen, pages 49-51
  •   Tafseer Qurtubi, under the commentary of 70:2.
  • Faiz al Qadeer Shrah Jami al-Sagheer by Imam Abdurauf al-Munawi, Volume 6 page 218 No. 9000

(3) A momin is that individual who attests to a belief in Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Messenger with his tongue and heart. A Munafiq is an individual who recites the Shahadah (testimony) with his tongue but does not believe in it in his heart. It is from this context that we deem anyone who denies the Wilayah of Maula ‘Ali  (as) in his heart to be a munafiq (i.e. a hypocrite) or a Kaafir.
 
In this connection we have this Hadith recorded by Ibn Maghazali in his famed work ‘Manaqib Ameer’ul Momineen’:
 
“Whoever dispute with ‘Ali over the Khailafath after me is a Kaafir”

Manaqib Ameer’ul Momineen, page 48
Along similar lines we have this Hadith recorded by Shaykh Suleman Qandozi al-Hanafi in Yanabi al Mawaddah Volume 1 page 290
 
on the authority of Ayesha:
 
“The Prophet (s) said ‘Verily Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has promised me that anyone that rebels against Ali is a Hell Bound Kaafir’. When Ayesha narrated this, she was asked ‘O Lady why did you rebel against ‘Ali?’ She replied ‘I forgot this Hadith on the Day of Jamal but remembered it again when I arrived in Basra. I have sought the forgiveness of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì for this’

Yanabi al Mawaddah Volume 1 page 290
 
 
(4) From a logical perspective, if we believe that Imam Ali  (as) was the true successor of the Prophet (s) then it is because he was the best of men, and we believe that the person the best of men should lead the Ummah, in the capacity of Khalifa of the Prophet (s). Those who excel in merits are those who should be entitled to lead the Ummah. So what merits does Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì deem essential to lead the Muslims? The answer to this and all question’s lies in Allah (swt)’s Glorious Book. Saul  (as) appointed a successor, a decision that was resented by the people:


“And their Prophet said to them, ‘Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a King over you’. They said, ‘How can he hold Kingship while we have a greater right to Kingship than him, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth?’ He said, ‘Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants his Kingdom to whom He pleases and Allah is Ample-giving, knowing”.
The verse makes it clear that the Leader is chosen by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì not by the people, had it been their choice they would have voted in a man with wealth. Monetary power is nothing in the eyes of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì; He makes it clear that the right to succeed is based on the individual possessing superiority in:

  • Knowledge
  • Bodily Strength

If we look at the Seerah of the Prophet and his Sahaba we can safely conclude that no one was greater in knowledge and physical strength than Imam Ali (s). From a knowledge perspective Rasulullah (s) said ‘I am the City of Knowledge and ‘Ali is its Gate’.

 

Physical strength is tested in the battlefield, and one only need to pick up the books of classical history to see the manner in which ‘Ali (s) came out to duel in Badr, stayed with the Prophet (s) when all around had fled in Uhud a fact testified by the Prophet (s) (see the scan below from Madarij un Nubuwwa, v2 p 210-211), he slew the leader of the Kuffar in battle at Khunduq (trench), and through his leadership conquered the main fortress at Khayber killing Mahrab in the process. What greater proof of the superiority of ‘Ali (s) in battle can there be than the testimony of Gibrael (s) at Uhud: ‘There is no brave young man but Ali, and there is no sword but Dhulfiqar’

 

1. Madarij un Nubuwat, Volume 2 page 210-211
2. History of al-Tabari Volume 7 pages 120-121


If we look at these two criteria via which Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì chose Talut above others, then it is logical that ‘Ali (s) should likewise succeed the Prophet (s) as he was the best of men, and to hold a different opinion is Kuffar. To corroborate our position what better evidence can we present than the testimony of Ayesha from Yanabi al Mawadah page 290:

Ata narrates: ‘I asked Ayesha about Ali. She replied: ‘He is the best of men; no one denies this except a Kaafir”. 

Yanabi al Mawadah Volume 1 page 290
The same text has also been narrated from Hudhayfa, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Imam Ali  (as) himself on the same page. Other Sunni scholars have also recorded this from the blessed lips of our Prophet (s); here is a list of where it can be located:

 

  • Tareekh Damishq Volume 2 page 942, by Ibn Asakir
  • Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, page 193
  • Min Hadith Khaithema bin Sulaiman page by Khaithema bin Sulaiman Al-Qusashi
  • Kunuz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, Volume 2 page 15, the letter Ayn
  • Faraid al Simtayn, Volume 1 page 154 Chapter 31
  • Kifayath al Muttalib Volume 9 page 245
  • Muwaddat ul Qurba page 30
  • Kanz ul Ummal, Hadith 33046

“Ali is the best of Men, and the denial is nothing but Kufr”
Online Kanz ul Ummal, Hadith 33046
http://www.al-eman.c...BID=137&CID=410
A salafy website with the book “Min hadith Khaithema bin Sulaiman” by Khaithema bin Sulaiman Al-Qusashi also records:

 

علي خير البشر من أبي فقد كفر

“Ali is the best of Men, and the denial is nothing but Kufr” 
http://www.alsunnah....HadithID=426376

 

 

 

(5) The following two traditions are written, one after the other, in the History of al-Tabari which is one of the important history book for the Sunnis. Besides al-Tabari, many other historians and traditionists and commentators of Quran from among Sunnis have recorded this tradition in their books. (see below for the list of references). The two traditions explicitly indicate that the Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him and his family), with the order of Allah, has introduced Ali Ibn Abi Talib as his successor even in his first open preach to the people:

Narrated Ibn Humayed, from Salamah, from Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, from Abd al-Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith Ibn Nawfal Ibn al-Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from Ali Ibn Abi Talib: When the verse "And warn your close tribe (Quran 26:214)" was revealed to the prophet, he called me and said to me, "Ali, God has commanded me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a
way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and said "If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish you." So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it, fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al- Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commanded to tell them."

I did what he had told me to do. At that time they numbered forty men more or less, including his uncles Abu Talib, Hamzah, al-Abbas, and Abu Lahab. When they had gathered together, he called me to bring the food which I had prepared. I brought it, and when I put it down, prophet took a piece of meat, broke it with his teeth, put it in the dish. Then he said, "Take in the name of God." They ate until they could eat no more, and yet the food was as it had been. I swear by God, in whose hand Ali's soul rests, that a single man could have eaten the amount of food which I prepared for them. Then he said "Give them something to drink." So I brought them the bowl and they drank from it until they became full, and I swear by God that one man could have drunk that amount. When prophet wanted to speak to them, Abu Lahab interrupted him and said "Your host has long since bewitched you." Then they dispersed without the prophet speaking to them. On the following day he said to me "Ali, this man interrupted what I wanted to say so that people dispersed before I could speak to them. Prepare the same food for us as you did yesterday, and invite them here." I did this, and brought them food when he called me. He did as The had done the other day, and they ate until they could eat no more.
Then he said, "Bring the bowl," and they drank until they could drink
no more.

Then he spoke to them, saying, "Banu Abd al-Muttalib, I don't know of any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him. Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?" They all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said "I will be your helper, O' prophet of God." He put his hand on the back of my neck and said "This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him.

 

" They rose up laughing and saying to Abu Talib, "He has commanded you to obey your

son and to obey him!"



Sunni References:
(1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91
(2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62
(3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85
(4) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, p97
(5) Tafsir al-Khazin, by Ala'uddin al-Shafi'i, v3, p371
(6) Shawahid al-Tanzil, by al-Hasakani, v1, p371
(7) Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, p15, pp 100-117
(8) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, v1, p311
(9) Dala'il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Baihaqi, v1, pp 428-430
(10) al-Mukhtasar, by Abul Fida, v1, pp 116-117
(11) Life of Muhammad, by Hasan Haykal, p104 (First Arabic Edition only. In
the second edition the last sentence of Prophet is deleted.)
(12) Tahdhib al-Athar, v4, pp 62-63.



The above tradition was also narrated by important Sunni figures such as Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, Ibn Abu Hatem, and Ibn Mardawayh. It is also recorded by many orientalists including T. Carlyle, E. Gibbon, J. Davenport, and W. Irving.

As we see, Prophet ordered people to LISTEN AND FOLLOW ALI even in his first open preach, that is, when he declared his prophethood openly. "Shia" means "The Followers", and it is exclusively used for "The Followers of Imam Ali". Thus Shia school of thought was in fact established by the Holy Prophet of Islam (PBUH&HF) from the beginning of his mission.

If we follow Imam Ali (s), this is because the Holy Prophet asked us to do so. Moreover, whatever Imam Ali (s) (and other 11 Imams) has said is the exact teachings and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, and whatever Prophet Muhammad has said is the exact teachings and sayings of Allah. This is because the prophets and Imams are infallible and they do not say anything in contrary to what they have been commanded to say.

The next tradition in the History of al-Tabari is as follows:

Narrated Zakariyya Ibn Yahya al-Darir, from Affan Ibn Muslim, from Abu
Awanah, from Uthman Ibn al-Mughirah, from Abu Sadiq, from Rabiah Ibn Najid:


(6) A man said to Ali: "O Commander of believers, how did you become the
heir of your cousin to the exclusion of your paternal uncle?" Ali
said:"Ahem" three times until every body craned their necks and
[Edited Out]ed up their ears, and then said "Prophet invited the whole of the
Banu Abd al-Muttalib, including his own closest relatives, to eat a
year old lamb and to drink some milk. He also prepared a quantity of
wheat for them, and they ate until they were full, while the food
remained as it was, as though it had not been touched. Then he called
for a drinking cup and they drank until they could drink no more,
while the drink remained as though it had not been touched and they
had not drunk. Then he said Banu abd al Muttalib, I have been sent to
all men in general and to you in particular. Now that you have seen
what you have seen, which of you will swear an oath of allegiance to
me to become my brother, my companion, and my inheritor? Not one of
them rose up, so I stood up before him even though I was the youngest
there. He said Sit down. He repeated the words he had spoken for three
times while I would rise up and he would say to me sit down. On the
third occasion, he struck his hand on mine. In this way I became the
heir of my cousin to the exclusion of my uncle."


Sunni References: History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 91-92
 

Note:

This is only a Small portion of proofs.

 

 

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Brother Allah has said in the Quran that, uphold your prayers and pay the poor rate but has he mentioned clearly int the Quran, how to pray and how to pay the poor rate, every bit of detail??? If every thing was in the Quran in absolute and complete detail, then what is the point of Sunnah??? What would be the Prophet's (pbuh) role then??? Would his role be limited??? To turn around and say, why isn't this in the Quran or why isn't that in the Quran, is an absolute and total disregard and disrespect of the

Sunnah and the Prophet (pbuh). Why are we undermining the Prophet (pbuh) here, through such an attitude??? Does the Prophet's (pbuh) have no value or role??? To be continued.

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(bismillah)

Statement:

My brother islamic history you have time and time again accused me of coming up with my "own assumptions" but I have told you time and time again that what I believe is the believe of ahle sunnah as a whole. In your previous long reply You said you wanted an answer from either shia or sunni tafsirs. I will give you an answer from sunni side and leave the explanation of the shia side to you. Having said this I will try to refer to shia side whenever I can.

My dear brother I did not Claim that I wanted proof from a Sunni Tafsir, I only said this because to make sure you are not providing your own opinions on this issue. And the reason Why I keep repeatedly accusing you of "your own Assumptions" is because you do not stick to your position, but rather move along with that fits or is able to refute my answer, Which by so far you haven't. I Do not know if you understand the meaning of Dialogue as you should know "Di" means two. A simple Debate between two people who can either have similar ideas but different concepts or either a whole Different beliefs. In this you for example to prove your point against my stance you my give proof from our books and not your, thus if you provide from your books, it will not mean nor with anything and you will not be able to prove your point, especially Sahih Bukhari since it is considered a book filled with Mostly Fabricated hadiths from Abu Huraiyara or such. So in order to support your stance you need to refer to our books with clear authentic references as I have referred to your with clear Authentic chains. I have said is this many times that the two books, Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari, contain hadith narrated by liars. If you study Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari in the light of the books of Rijal, you will find that they have recorded many hadith reported from men who were great liars, e.g., Abu Huraira, the notorious liar, Ikrima Kharji, Sulayman Bin Amr, and others of the same category. Bukhari was not so cautious in recording hadith as you think. He did not record the Hadith-e-Thaqalain, which others have done, but he had no hesitation in recording ludicrous and insulting stories about the Prophet Moses slapping the face of the Angel of Death, the Prophet Moses' running away naked after a stone, and Allah's visibility. Consider another ridiculous and insulting story recorded by Bukhari in his Sahih, Volume II, Chapter ""Al-Lahr Bi'l-Harb," page 120, and by Muslim in his Sahih Volume I, quoting Abu Huraira as saying that on the Eid (a holiday) some Sudanese nomads gathered in the Mosque of the Prophet. They entertained spectators with their sport and performances. The Prophet asked A'yesha if she would like to witness the performances. She said she would. The Prophet let her mount on his back in such a way that she had her head over his shoulders and her face on the head of the Prophet. In order to amuse A'yesha, the Holy Prophet was asking the entertainers to stage a better dance. At last A'yesha became tired, and the holy Prophet let her get down on the ground! Judge for yourself whether such a story is not insulting. If Bukhari was so cautious about recording facts, was it fair on his part to record such foolish stories in his Sahih. But even now you characterize these books as the most authentic ones after the Holy Qur'an. Of course Bukhari took special care to omit the matter of the Imamate and the Vicegerency of Ali, as well as the matter of the Ahle Bait. Probably he feared such information might some day be used as a weapon against the opponents of the Ahle Bait. Second of All We have no evidence whether fabricated or otherwise that the Prophet (s) ever foretold of a man called Muhammad Ismail Bukhari appearing in his Ummah with a Hadith book, the contents of which would act as an eternal source of guidance for the believers. The religious instruction left by the Prophet (s) was that we adhere to two things: “I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur’an and my Ahlul’bayt”.

-‘Sahih’ according to Imam Al-Albaani in Silsila Sahiha, volume 4 page 355

It is evident from these words that for the purposes of Hadith literature the litmus test for authenticity should be whether traditions have been disseminated on the authority of the Ahl’ul bayt Imams. We ask those with open minds, is Sahih Bukhari replete with Hadith whose origins can be traced back through the Ahl’ul bayt Imams (s)? Certainly not, on the contrary we have learned Sunni testimony that Bukhari consciously sought to avoid taking Hadith from the Ahl’ul bayt Imams (s). Sunni scholar Mufti Ghulam Rasool tried his best to defend his Imam Bukhari whilst addressing the criticism of Abu Zahra that Imam Bukhari did not take Hadith from Imam Sadiq (s), he states as follows:

It was not just Imam Sadiq (s) that Imam Bukhari refrained from taking Hadith from, he did not take any from four of the pure Ahlulbayt Imams who existed during his lifetime, namely:

The eighth Imam Ali Raza (s) (d. 208 H), this was that Imam that at one time in Nisahbur had more than twenty thousand scholars who benefited from listening to and sought permission to narrate Hadith, attendees included high ranking Muhadatheen such as Hafiz Abu Zurai Razi (d.264 H), Hafiz Muhammad Aslam Tusi (d.242 H) Ishaq bin Rahwiyah (d.264 H) etc.

The ninth Imam, Imam Taqi (s) (d. 220 H)

The tenth Imam, Imam Naqi (s) (d.245 H)

The eleventh Imam, Imam Hasan Askari (s) (d.260 H)

Imam Bukhari lived during the times of these four Imams yet did not take narrations from them. Imam Bukhari’s esteemed book Sahih Bukhari is empty with Hadith from the Ahlulbayt Imams, even though Hadith was something of Ahlulbayt’s own house house of the Prophet and there is a well known saying ‘No one knows the going on inside a house than the people of that house’.

Imam Bukhari should have narrated Hadith from the Imams from the Ahlulbayt of the Prophet since they were the source of Hadith. We cannot say that Imam Bukhari did this due to hatred, rather we say that it was due to difficulties that he did not narrate from the Ahlul bayt Imams. Muhammad bin Ismaeel Bukhari (d.256 H) was alive during the Abbaside era, when he compiled Sahih Bukhari, he stated: ‘In Sahih Bukhari the Hadeeth compiled are Sahih and the Sahih Hadiths that I left are much more in number’. Abdul Haleem Jundi said: ‘Imam Bukhari was indicating that the Hadith that he had omitted were those in the honour of Ali and the Ahlul bayt. Imam Bukhari could not incorporate them in his Sahih Bukhari due to the occupation and hostility by Abbaside reign [Jafar al-Sadiq, p234 by al-Jundi” -Subeh Sadiq fi Fadail Imam Jafar Sadiq, pages 195-196

Whilst we are at variance with Mufti’s mitigation, namely that this censorship was due to taqiyya and would explain it as bigotry and bias on his part, this text proves that there existed no nexus between Imam Bukhari and the Ahl’ulbayt Imams (as). The same approach of avoidance was adopted by the other Saha Sittah authors.

Statement:

With this reply inshallah I will try and use authentic hadith as much as possible and directly keep them hadith linked to verse 4:59.

Can you please refer to our books when it comes to a debate? A more Formal Academic type would be helpful.

Statement:

1. I have said from day one that obeying Allah and his messenger (s) is unconditional and to disobey them can lead to ones ultimate devastation in the hereafter. Here is a verse warning anybody who disobeys Allah and his messenger (s):

Surah 4:14

And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment.

No such verse exists for disobeying the ulil amr. Also Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has refrained from describing exactly who the ulul amr are, because all it means is "those with authority" and personally to me those with authority could be anyone from a leader to your parents. The whole ummah is unanimous that we have to obey our parents BUT this obedience is conditional. As long as the parents don't tell you do go against sharia:

Surah 31:15

But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me that of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them but accompany them in [this] world with appropriate kindness and follow the way of those who turn back to Me [in repentance]. Then to Me will be your return, and I will inform you about what you used to do

So in this surah the limits are given that we should disobey them if our parents tell us to go against sharia. So obedience is not always unconditional.

Reply:

So According to your Logic since there are other verses which contain only Allah and the messenger therefore we must ignore other verses as so. My dear brother this is illogical because if a verse it telling you to only obey Allah and the messenger, does that mean we do not need to obey the Quran? there are various verse we it says we should obey Allah and the messenger, but does that mean we should Exclude all all the other prophets (s)? Does that mean we should not entirely believe in the Angels? yet according to both Sunni and Shia, We must believe in the Angels, Day of judgement, predestination and etc.. But does that mean because of some verse were it only states we should obey Allah and the messenger, does that mean we should Exclude everything ells? I am sorry, but you make no sense it what your trying to point out there. Third of All When it says we must obey they prophet (s), Don't we have to obey Imam Ali (s)? as I mentioned Earlier with clear proof:

In Musanad Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,

By Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,

Verified and Investigated (commentated)

by Hamza Ahmad Al-Zain, Volume 16, page 28

He Said: Narrated by Zaid ibn Thabit, He said, The prophet (saws) said: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors), The book of Allah Rope between the heavens and the earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar,"

The Chain of Narrators, Hadith 21470, "The Chain is Hassan (good)"

here is the proof:

post-83202-0-69510000-1376640956_thumb.p post-83202-0-31630100-1376640974_thumb.j

Sahih of "Al-Jami" Al Sagheer"

For the Scholar Al-Albani, the 1st Volume, page 482

Hadith 2457,

The prophet (pbuh) said: "I am leaving for you two Khalifas (successors), The Book of Allah, rope between the heavens and earth, and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar,"

Al- Albani says: " It is a SAHIH (perfect)."

Proof:

post-83202-0-58410000-1376644804_thumb.p post-83202-0-98360900-1376644808_thumb.p

Ithaf Al Khiyara Al-Mahara",

For the Imam Al-Haafiz Shahaab Ul-Deen Al-Buseeri

Introduced by Sheikh Dr, Ahmad Ma'bad, member of Council of Education in

Imam Muhammad bin Su'ood University, Revised (and reassured) by "dar Al-Mishkat" for Research.

Supervised by Abu Tameem Yassir Ibn Ibrahim, Volume 7, First edition, 1999, Al-Riyadah, Saudi Arabia.

Page 210: In the Door of " In the prophet's quote: 'Whoever I am his mater, Ali is his master.":

Narrated By Imam Ali: "The prophet (pbuh) was there under the tree in (ghadeer) Khum. Then he came out

and took Ali's Hand and said: 'Don't you testify that Allah is your Lord? they said: 'yes', Then he said: "don't you testify that Allah and his messenger have more right over you, than your own selves, and that Allah and his messenger are your masters?", They said: 'yes'. Then he said: 'whoever God and myself are his masters, then He (Ali) is his mater. And I left in you that which if you take and Abide by, you would Never go astray, God's book and My Ahlulbayt."

Narrated by Ishaaq, with a SAHIH (perfect) chain of narration

and said by Imam Al Booseeri, 'and the hadith of Ghadeer was directed by Al-Nisai'i.'

Proof:

post-83202-0-48352800-1376664211_thumb.j post-83202-0-41490500-1376664239_thumb.j

"Al-Jami'i Al-Kabeer" - Sunan Al Tirmidhi,

From Imam Al-Hafidh, revised by Shuaib al-Arnaoot,

Book (part) 6, page 235, Hadith 4120:

Narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah: " I Saw the prophet (pbuh) in pilgrimage as he was on his camel

speaking. So I heard him Say: 'O people, I have left with you that which if you abide by, you will never go astray, God's Book (Quran) and My (holy) Family (Ahlulbayt)."

We look at the footnotes:

Al-Arnaoot's view: This hadith is SAHIH (perfect)

Al-Arnaoot says: AL-Sindi in the explanation of "my Ahlulbayt": it was as if

the prophet (pbih) made them (family) equal in importance even to His position.

'Just as in his (pbuh) life, it was Him and the Quran, AFTER HIS LIFE, it was his FAMILY (Ahlulbayt) and

the Quran."

Poof:

post-83202-0-21710700-1376688577_thumb.p post-83202-0-14836900-1376688590_thumb.jpost-83202-0-08675700-1376688605_thumb.p

Al - Sunnah : By Imam Abi Bakr Ahmad ibn Abi As'aim (287 AH)

Investigated by Dr Al Jawabra, Professor of Hadeeth at Imam Muhammad Ibn Su'ood, University

Al- Sumai'y Institution , Volume 2 page 799

The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: "Ali your position to me, is like Harun to Mosa, Expect

that there will be no prophet after me. and that you are Caliph ​of Every believer After me."

In Addition, the Hadith before that on the same page, Hadith 1221:

The propher (pbuh) said: "Ali is from me, and I am from Ali, and he is the WALI of every believer after me."

HADITH SAHIH AND THE SANAD IS SANAD MUSLIM.

In the commentary: Underneath it:

"The Chain of Narrators is Good, and Narrators are the narrators of the TWO SHEIKHS."

Proof:

post-83202-0-47413500-1376691971_thumb.p post-83202-0-66111200-1376691981_thumb.jpost-83202-0-68438100-1376692007_thumb.p

“Whoever obeys ‘Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys ‘Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

1. Kanz ul Ummal, hadith numbers 32973-32976

2. Mustadrak al Hakim Volume 3 page 123

3. Riyadh ul Nadira Volume 3 page 110

Statement:

Now coming back to ulil amr. You asked me for evidence so I shall give you the best I could find: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 108:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The Verse: "Obey Allah and Obey the Apostle and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority." (4.59) was revealed in connection with 'Abdullah bin Hudhafa bin Qais bin 'Adi' when the Prophet appointed him as the commander of a Sariyya (army detachment).

So you see brother the verse was revealed for a fallible and below I shall point out why in the second part of the verse it says refer to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his messenger (s) and does not mention the ulil amr when it comes to referring.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 629 :

========================

Narrated by 'Ali

The Prophet sent a Sariya under the command of a man from the Ansar and ordered the soldiers to obey him. He (i.e. the commander) became angry and said "Didn't the Prophet order you to obey me!" They replied, "Yes." He said, "Collect fire-wood for me." So they collected it. He said, "Make a fire." When they made it, he said, "Enter it (i.e. the fire)." So they intended to do that and started holding each other and saying, "We run towards (i.e. take refuge with) the Prophet from the fire." They kept on saying that till the fire was extinguished and the anger of the commander abated. When that news reached the Prophet he said, "If they had entered it (i.e. the fire), they would not have come out of it till the Day of Resurrection. Obedience (to somebody) is required when he enjoins what is good."

So you see my brother obedience to the ulil amr is only required when he enjoins what is good. This is why we should refer to Allah Statementì and his messenger (s) if the ulil amr tells us to do anything which seems wrong. Later in this reply I will try to go into as much detail as possible as to why there is mention of referring to ulil amr in surah 4:83 and not in 4:59.

Reply: I again Fail to understand what your trying to do here you Gave me one Hadith from the one book that is filled with Fabrications (Proven on the first reply of this post), Second of All I think you "Scan-Read", because Already I have read this and I found many Logical Errors:

Logical Error:

(1) The verse 4:59 Uli al mar is not Restricted to one person, since the Word "Uli al Amr" Means various people, Which Puts a Question mark on the Hadith you stated, When a verse that Includes "Many people" as in the terms of "Uli" which is Jam'a, I find it illogical that it only came down on one person.

(2) The verse it not only for that time, Of so, Why not just say obey the "Ansar" of that particular time? this would make no sense since the verse is not Restricted at all, but it is for All times.

(3) did they not Disobey the prophet (s)? by not entering the fire? So how can the Hadith go against the verse it self?

____________________________________________________________________________________

(4) In a debate you must use proof from the opponents books to where he refer.

(5) Bukhair Among us is Rejected.

(6) Why Would you take Sources from the person who narrates from Ibn Muljam (LA), and the Enemies who fought Imam Hussain (as)?

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Compared to your Hadith I brought Many narrations on this issue from our books, So you have no reason not to accept since you mentioned from your books I mentioned from Mine and yours.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Obviously rulers obtain their authority in one of these ways:

1. They are appointed by ijma (consensus)

2. They gain power by force.

3. They are divinely commissioned.

If a leader gains authority by consensus of the community, it is not compulsory to obey him as one obeys Allah or the Prophet. It is not possible for all Muslims to appoint a just ruler since, however wise or conscientious they may be, they can only judge a man by appearance. They cannot read his heart or know the degree of his faith.

Obviously Muslims cannot claim to possess better understanding than the Prophet Moses. He selected seventy men out of several thousand for their apparent integrity and took them with him to Mount Sinai. But all of them, on examination, proved worthless because their faith was not firm. This fact has been referred to in the Holy Qur'an, verse 154 of sura 7.

If those selected by Moses proved to be unbelievers at heart, it is obvious that common people would be less competent to choose able rulers for themselves. It is quite possible that those selected for their apparent piety may eventually turn out to be unbelievers. Surely obedience to such rulers would weaken religion.

Certainly Allah would not require his servants to obey a sinner as they would obey Him or His Prophet. Moreover, if the appointment of the 'uli'l-amr' were made through a true consensus, an election would have to be held for each new appointment. All citizens of all Muslim nations would have to agree on the choice in every election.

During 1300 years of Islam we find that, after the Holy Prophet, no such consensus ever occurred. At present it is impossible to secure such a consensus because the Muslim world has been split up into numerous countries, each with a ruler of its own.

Moreover, if every country should elect an 'uli'l-amr' for itself, there would be numerous 'uli'l-amr,' each to be obeyed within his own country, and the people of one country would not obey the uli'l-amr' of other countries. Of course then there is the question of allegiance when differences arise - as they often have in the last 1300 years - between two 'authorities.' We then have Muslims killing other Muslims in the name of Islam.

But true Islam does not require such absurd behavior which would lead to mutual strife among Muslims. It follows, therefore, that the 'uli'l-amr' whom we are commanded to obey has gained his authority by consensus.

It is equally absurd to suggest that obedience to a tyrant is compulsory. If it were, why do the Sunni ulema condemn the oppressive rulers and caliphs, like Mu'awiya, Yazid, the wicked Ziyad Ibn Abib, Ubaidullah, Hajjaj, Abu Salma, and Muslim.

If anyone claims that obedience to wicked rulers is compulsory (and some ulema have really said that), it would be quite contrary to the Qur'anic injunctions. Allah has frequently cursed sinners in the Holy Qur'an and has forbidden Muslims to obey them. So how is it possible that in this verse He would order us to obey sinners? Obviously, we cannot attribute two divergent orders to Allah Almighty. Hence, Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi clearly says regarding this holy verse that the 'uli'l-amr' must possess perfect integrity. Otherwise, Allah would not have linked our duty to obey them with our duty to obey Allah Himself and the Holy Prophet.

To us the 'uli'l-amr' must be free from sin and infallible. And since no one except Allah can know the deep reality of the heart, the 'uli'l-amr' must be appointed by Allah. Thus Allah, Who ordains the prophets, also ordains the 'uli'l-amr:' An 'uli'l-amr' obviously must have the same attributes the Holy Prophet had.

In this holy verse the word ati'u (obey) has been used twice: He says, "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle." When He speaks of 'uli'l-amr,' He does not use the word 'ati'u' again but uses the conjunction 'and' with 'uli'l-amr.' Linking the words in this way it means that 'uli'l-amr' possess the same merit as the Holy Prophet possesses, except those which are peculiar to the Prophet alone, e.g. 'Wahi' (revelation), prophethood, etc. In short, the qualities of the Holy Prophet should be possessed by the 'uli'l-amr' except of course the rank of prophethood.

Accordingly, Shias believe that the words 'uli'l-amr' refer to the twelve Imams, that is Amiru'l-Mu'minin and his eleven descendants, the progeny of the Holy Prophet. This verse is one of the proofs of the Imamate of the twelve Imams.

Apart from this, there are many other verses supporting our point of view.

(1) For instance, the Holy Qur'an says: "He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men." Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant includes not the unjust, said He." (2:124)

(2) "The Prophet has a greater claim on the believers than they have on themselves and his wives are (as) their mothers; and blood relations have the better claim in respect of one to the other, according to the book of Allah than (other) believers or the emigrants." (33:6)

(3) "O you who believe! Fear Allah and be (always) with the truthful ones." (9:119)

(4) "You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people." (13:7)

(5) "And (know) that this is My path, the right one. Therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way. (6:153)

(6) "And of those whom we have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice." (7:181)

(7) "And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited." (3:103)

(8) "So ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know." (16:43)

(9) "Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you with a complete purification." (33:33)

(10) "Surely Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and the descendants of Imran above the nations. Offspring, one of the other."(3:33)

(11) "Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants." (35:32)

(12) "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, (and) the glass is, as it were, a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive tree, of neither the east or the West, the oil whereof nearly gives light, though fire touch it not." (24:35)

There are many other verses which could be quoted. Many of your prominent ulema have reported that the Holy Prophet said, "One fourth of the Holy Qur'an is in praise of the Ahle Bait."

Ibn Abbas is reported to have said, "More than 300 verses were revealed in praise of Ali."

Now, I come to my original point that the 'uli'l-amr' must be infallible because obedience to them is linked with obedience to Allah and the Holy Prophet.

Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi in his Tafsir admits that if we do not regard the 'uli'l-amr' as infallible, it would be, in effect, affirming two contradictions as being true. Your own ulema have confirmed that these qualities were possessed exclusively by the twelve Imams. The Holy verse of Purification (33:33) also confirms this fact.

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.77, p.445 and Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain report that Ibn Abbas said: "I heard the Holy Prophet saying: ' I and Ali, Hasan, Husain and nine of the descendants of Husain are completely pure and infallible.'"

Salman Farsi says that the Holy Prophet, putting his hand on the shoulder of Husain, said: "He is the Imam and the son of the Imam, and of his descendants there will be nine Imams who will all be virtuous trustees of Allah."

Zaid Ibn Thabit reports that the Holy Prophet said: "Verily, of Husain's descendants will be born Imams who will be virtuous trustees, infallible judges."

Imran Ibn Hasin reports that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are heir to my knowledge. You are the Imam and Caliph after me. You will tell the people what they do not know. You are the father of my grandson and husband of my daughter. Of your descendants there will be infallible Imams."

Abu Ishaq Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha report from Ibn Abbas that the Holy Prophet said: "My progeny have been created from the same seed from which I have been created. Allah Almighty has bestowed upon them knowledge and wisdom. Woe be to him who rejects them."

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha, and the author of Siratu's-Sahaba, report from Hudhaifa Bin Asaid that the Holy Prophet said: "I leave behind for you two weighty things: the book of Allah and my 'Ahle Bait.' If you attach yourselves to these two you will be rescued." Tabrani reports an addition: "Do not reject their authority; otherwise you shall be ruined. Do not show any disrespect toward them or ignore them, or else you shall be destroyed. Do not try to teach them because verily they know better than you do."

In other reports Hudhaifa Bin Asaid quotes the Holy Prophet as saying: "After me there will be Imams from my progeny. Their number will be equal to the number of Bani Isra'il's heralds, that is, twelve, of whom nine will be Husain's descendants. Allah has bestowed upon all of them my knowledge and wisdom. So do not teach them because surely they know better than you do. Follow them since they are definitely with truth, and truth is with them."

First my dear brother, this divine book is concise. It contains many general principles but few details, which have been left for the chief commentator, the Holy Prophet, to explain. Allah says: "And whatever the Apostle gives you, accept it; and from whatever he forbids you, keep back." (59:7)

Because the names and numbers of the twelve Imams are not mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, some people do not accept them. But on that basis they should reject their own caliphs since no verse of the Holy Qur'an makes any mention of their caliphs, except Ali Bin Abi Talib, or of the Umayyad or Abbasid caliphs, or of the authority vested in the Community to elect a caliph by consensus.

Second, if it is necessary to reject anything which is not clearly stated in the Holy Qur'an, then you should reject many of the methods of our worship since there is no mention of their details in the Holy Qur'an.

The ritual prayer is perhaps the central act of worship in a Muslim's life. The Holy Prophet emphasized its performance. He said: "The ritual prayer is the pillar and protector of religion. If the ritual prayer is accepted, all other religious performances will be accepted. If it is rejected, all other religious performances will also be rejected."

Of course, there is no mention in the Holy Qur'an of the number of units (rak'ats) to be performed for each prayer or any of the other specific details regarding how the prayers are to be performed. Does this mean that we should abandon the prayers? The Holy Qur'an simply says: "Establish salat (prayer). There are no details distinguishing required from optional acts. These were explained by the Holy Prophet.

In the same way other commands have been stated in the Holy Qur'an in principle only. Their details, conditions and relevant instructions were explained by the Holy Prophet. Similarly, concerning the Imamate and caliphate, the Holy Qur'an says only: "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those in authority among you." And we are bound to follow the Holy Prophet's order in this regard in the same way we follow his instructions with regard to the details of the ritual prayers.

Muslim commentators, whether Sunni or Shia, cannot make their own interpretations of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet said: "If someone gives his own interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, his place is Hell."

Accordingly, every sensible Muslim turns to the real interpreter of the Holy Qur'an, the Holy Prophet. For many years I have studied both Sunni and Shia Qur'anic commentary and hadith but have never come across a single hadith in which the Holy Prophet said that 'uli'l-amr' refers to political rulers. On the other hand, the books of both the Sunnis and Shias contain numerous reports that the Holy Prophet was asked to indicate the meaning of 'uli'l-amr' and he replied that 'uli'l-amr' referred to Ali and his eleven descendants. I will present only some of the few of these numerous hadith which I have posted on the previous post "Appointing A Successor", and remember these are Authentic Sources.

Statement:

Firstly brother if this verse is talking about your imams then you have a serious problem because in verse 4:59 you said we cannot refer to the prophet (s) because he isn't here whereas I've argued with you from day one that the prophet (s) can be referred to through his authentic narrations, which is the method used by ahle sunnah when we come across any problems with our ulil amr.This is why ahle sunnah believe the prophet (s) is thee guide even today through his narrations and anybody including your 12 imams who you call your guides are actually secondary guides as they are themselves following guidance of the prophet (s). So the prophet (s) is the Warner and the guide and ali a.s is the secondary guide, but you believe the prophet (s) was only a Warner and ali a.s was the guide.

(1) How Much Do you insist on Repeating your self? As I have Proven to you that the prophet (s) is the Warner and Imam Ali (s) is the guide, so can you please mention the Same hadith from our books with Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar? I don't think so.

(2) No For the last time, I did not say I do not Believe that the prophet (s) is not a guide, yes I said he is a Guide, but the Guide of the Ummah after him is Imam Ali (s) and the Imams After him (s). I explained it above.

Statement:

So in this verse we have to refer to ulil amr AND messenger. If it said prophet (s) OR ulil amr then this would have worked for you because it would mean that we could refer to the ulil amr if the prophet (s) was no longer around.

No my dear brother its "And" and not "or"

Shakir

And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.

The Other Translation are mistaken, because if it was "or" it Would have been "او" but Rather it says "و" which Means And.

Perhaps Revise some Arabic, I infact Explained the same issue on the Post about the Successor of Solomon.

Statement:

So by using your theory that we can only refer to the prophet (s) while he is alive then this verse would have only worked for you until the messenger (s) was alive because we are ordered in this verse to refer to BOTH ulil amr and prophet (s).

And as I explained earlier my dear friend if we were to refer to the prophet (s) we would Refer to what he said. And In that means we must obey him, and the prophet (s) left a Khalifa after him who was appointed in the Day of Ghadir Who is Imam Ali (s). And Now your going to Reject the Existence of Imam Mahdi (S) which I have made a post for you ( please go to the previous post) Which you never bothered to open.

Would you like to tell me Who is your Uli al amr today?

No please go a head tell me and explain your stance.

Statement:

As Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has told that they should have referred it to ulil amr then this only proves that the difference was not with the ulil amr but between normal believers. So it would make perfect sense to mention both ulil amr and messenger (s). If any difference takes place between believers then the first thing we would do is refer it to the ulil amr this is obvious.

If they Differ in everything this would also Include bad news/good News and so one, Unless you are able to distinguish the between the meaning when the Quran meant everything they Differ in. Even So, When One gets bad news/Good news there would be a Certain Action towards it, and that action should be refer to the Quran? Don't you think? No doubt it should but Who knows the Quran better than Prophet Muhammad (s) and the Uli al Amr (s)?

We read:

وَيَقُولُونَ طَاعَةٌ فَإِذَا بَرَزُواْ مِنْ عِندِكَ بَيَّتَ طَائِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ غَيْرَ الَّذِي تَقُولُ وَاللَّهُ يَكْتُبُ مَا يُبَيِّتُونَ فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ وَكِيلاً4:81

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا4:82

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُواْ بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُولِي الأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لاَتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً4:83

فَقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ لاَ تُكَلَّفُ إِلاَّ نَفْسَكَ وَحَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَكُفَّ بَأْسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَاللَّهُ أَشَدُّ بَأْسًا وَأَشَدُّ تَنكِيلاً4:84

4:81And they say: "Obedience." But when they go out from your presence, a party of them hatch by night apian other than what you say; and Allah writes down what they hatch by night, therefore turn aside from them and trust in Allah, and Allah is sufficient as a protector.

4:82Do they not then meditate on the Qur'an? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

4:83And when there comes to them news of security or fear, they spread it; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who (can) draw out the truth in it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Satan, save a few.

4:84Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except in relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardour; maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve, and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.

I doubt you read My last post, On this issue, So I will Quote my self again:

(salam)

Previous Posted Evidence of Ghadir Khum:

(1) “It is narrated by Bara’ bin ‘azib ®: We were on a journey with Allah’s Messenger (s). (On the way) we stayed at Ghadir Khum. There it was announced that the prayer was about to be offered. The space under two trees was cleaned for Allah’s Messenger (s). Then he offered the zuhr (noon) prayer, and, holding ‘Ali’s hand, he said: Don’t you know that I am even nearer than the lives of the believers? They said: Why not! He said: Don’t you know that I am even nearer than the life of every believer? They said: Why not! The narrator says that he said while holding ‘Ali’s hand: One who has me as his master has ‘Ali as his master. O Allah! Befriend the one who befriends him (‘Ali) and be the enemy of one who is his enemy. The narrator says that after this ‘Umar (bin al-Khattab ®) met ‘Ali ® and said to him: O Ibn Abi Talib! Congratulations, you have become the master of every male and female believer, morning and evening (for ever).”

Ahmad bin Hambal related it from Bara’ bin ‘azib through two different chains of

transmission in al-Musnad (4:281); Ibn Abi Shaybah, al-Musannaf (12:78 # 12167);

Muhib Tabari, Dhakha’ir-ul-‘uqba fi manaqib dhawi al-qurba (p.125), ar-Riyad-unnadrah

fi manaqib-il-‘ashrah (3:126, 127); Hindi, Kanz-ul-‘ummal (13:133, 134 #

36420); Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq al-kabir (5:167, 168); Ibn Athir, Asad-ulghabah

(4:103); and Ibn Kathir in al-Bidayah wan-nihayah (4:169; 5:464)]

The Ghadir Declaration, page 25

(2) On the day of Ghadir the Messenger of Allah summoned the people toward ‘Ali and said: “Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel and came to Madinah and went to the Messenger of Allah (s) and said to him: “You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you. You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed. You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed. Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to Makkah and we obeyed. But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying `Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.’ Is this imposition from Allah or from you?” The Prophet (s) said: “By Allah who is the only deity! This is from Allah, the Mighty and the Glorious.”

On hearing this Harith turned back and proceeded towards his she-camel saying: “O Allah! If what Muhammad said is correct then fling on us a stone from the sky and subject us to severe pain and torture.” He had not reached his she-camel when Allah, who is above all defects, flung at him a stone which struck him on his head, penetrated his body and passed out through his lower body and left him dead. It was on this occasion that Allah, the exalted, caused to descend the following verses:

“A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of the Ascent.”(70:1-3)

sources:

  • al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din Ali bin Burhan ud-din al-Halabi, v3, part 2, page 336 & 337.
  • Al-Kashaf wal Bayan fi Tafsir al Quran by Abu Ishaq Thalabi, commentary of verse 70:1-3. The Tafsir can be downloaded from Wahabi/Salafi website

    Download from almeshkat.net

  • Nur al-Absar, Shaykh Shiblanji, p119
  • Mufti Ghulam Rasool quoted the same incident from ‘Tadkiratul Khawwas’ page 39 in his book

    Imam Zain al Abdeen, pages 49-51

  • Tafseer Qurtubi, under the commentary of 70:2.
  • Faiz al Qadeer Shrah Jami al-Sagheer by Imam Abdurauf al-Munawi, Volume 6 page 218 No. 9000

(3) A momin is that individual who attests to a belief in Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Messenger with his tongue and heart. A Munafiq is an individual who recites the Shahadah (testimony) with his tongue but does not believe in it in his heart. It is from this context that we deem anyone who denies the Wilayah of Maula ‘Ali (as) in his heart to be a munafiq (i.e. a hypocrite) or a Kaafir.

In this connection we have this Hadith recorded by Ibn Maghazali in his famed work ‘Manaqib Ameer’ul Momineen’:

“Whoever dispute with ‘Ali over the Khailafath after me is a Kaafir”

Manaqib Ameer’ul Momineen, page 48

Along similar lines we have this Hadith recorded by Shaykh Suleman Qandozi al-Hanafi in Yanabi al Mawaddah Volume 1 page 290

on the authority of Ayesha:

“The Prophet (s) said ‘Verily Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has promised me that anyone that rebels against Ali is a Hell Bound Kaafir’. When Ayesha narrated this, she was asked ‘O Lady why did you rebel against ‘Ali?’ She replied ‘I forgot this Hadith on the Day of Jamal but remembered it again when I arrived in Basra. I have sought the forgiveness of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì for this’

Yanabi al Mawaddah Volume 1 page 290

(4) From a logical perspective, if we believe that Imam Ali (as) was the true successor of the Prophet (s) then it is because he was the best of men, and we believe that the person the best of men should lead the Ummah, in the capacity of Khalifa of the Prophet (s). Those who excel in merits are those who should be entitled to lead the Ummah. So what merits does Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì deem essential to lead the Muslims? The answer to this and all question’s lies in Allah (swt)’s Glorious Book. Saul (as) appointed a successor, a decision that was resented by the people:

“And their Prophet said to them, ‘Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a King over you’. They said, ‘How can he hold Kingship while we have a greater right to Kingship than him, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth?’ He said, ‘Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants his Kingdom to whom He pleases and Allah is Ample-giving, knowing”.

The verse makes it clear that the Leader is chosen by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì not by the people, had it been their choice they would have voted in a man with wealth. Monetary power is nothing in the eyes of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì; He makes it clear that the right to succeed is based on the individual possessing superiority in:

  • Knowledge
  • Bodily Strength

If we look at the Seerah of the Prophet and his Sahaba we can safely conclude that no one was greater in knowledge and physical strength than Imam Ali (s). From a knowledge perspective Rasulullah (s) said ‘I am the City of Knowledge and ‘Ali is its Gate’.

Physical strength is tested in the battlefield, and one only need to pick up the books of classical history to see the manner in which ‘Ali (s) came out to duel in Badr, stayed with the Prophet (s) when all around had fled in Uhud a fact testified by the Prophet (s) (see the scan below from Madarij un Nubuwwa, v2 p 210-211), he slew the leader of the Kuffar in battle at Khunduq (trench), and through his leadership conquered the main fortress at Khayber killing Mahrab in the process. What greater proof of the superiority of ‘Ali (s) in battle can there be than the testimony of Gibrael (s) at Uhud: ‘There is no brave young man but Ali, and there is no sword but Dhulfiqar’

1. Madarij un Nubuwat, Volume 2 page 210-211

2. History of al-Tabari Volume 7 pages 120-121

If we look at these two criteria via which Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì chose Talut above others, then it is logical that ‘Ali (s) should likewise succeed the Prophet (s) as he was the best of men, and to hold a different opinion is Kuffar. To corroborate our position what better evidence can we present than the testimony of Ayesha from Yanabi al Mawadah page 290:

Ata narrates: ‘I asked Ayesha about Ali. She replied: ‘He is the best of men; no one denies this except a Kaafir”.

Yanabi al Mawadah Volume 1 page 290

The same text has also been narrated from Hudhayfa, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Imam Ali (as) himself on the same page. Other Sunni scholars have also recorded this from the blessed lips of our Prophet (s); here is a list of where it can be located:

  • Tareekh Damishq Volume 2 page 942, by Ibn Asakir
  • Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, page 193
  • Min Hadith Khaithema bin Sulaiman page by Khaithema bin Sulaiman Al-Qusashi
  • Kunuz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, Volume 2 page 15, the letter Ayn
  • Faraid al Simtayn, Volume 1 page 154 Chapter 31
  • Kifayath al Muttalib Volume 9 page 245
  • Muwaddat ul Qurba page 30
  • Kanz ul Ummal, Hadith 33046

“Ali is the best of Men, and the denial is nothing but Kufr”

Online Kanz ul Ummal, Hadith 33046

http://www.al-eman.c...BID=137&CID=410

A salafy website with the book “Min hadith Khaithema bin Sulaiman” by Khaithema bin Sulaiman Al-Qusashi also records:

علي خير البشر من أبي فقد كفر

“Ali is the best of Men, and the denial is nothing but Kufr”

http://www.alsunnah....HadithID=426376

(5) The following two traditions are written, one after the other, in the History of al-Tabari which is one of the important history book for the Sunnis. Besides al-Tabari, many other historians and traditionists and commentators of Quran from among Sunnis have recorded this tradition in their books. (see below for the list of references). The two traditions explicitly indicate that the Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him and his family), with the order of Allah, has introduced Ali Ibn Abi Talib as his successor even in his first open preach to the people:

Narrated Ibn Humayed, from Salamah, from Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, from Abd al-Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith Ibn Nawfal Ibn al-Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from Ali Ibn Abi Talib: When the verse "And warn your close tribe (Quran 26:214)" was revealed to the prophet, he called me and said to me, "Ali, God has commanded me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a

way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and said "If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish you." So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it, fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al- Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commanded to tell them."

I did what he had told me to do. At that time they numbered forty men more or less, including his uncles Abu Talib, Hamzah, al-Abbas, and Abu Lahab. When they had gathered together, he called me to bring the food which I had prepared. I brought it, and when I put it down, prophet took a piece of meat, broke it with his teeth, put it in the dish. Then he said, "Take in the name of God." They ate until they could eat no more, and yet the food was as it had been. I swear by God, in whose hand Ali's soul rests, that a single man could have eaten the amount of food which I prepared for them. Then he said "Give them something to drink." So I brought them the bowl and they drank from it until they became full, and I swear by God that one man could have drunk that amount. When prophet wanted to speak to them, Abu Lahab interrupted him and said "Your host has long since bewitched you." Then they dispersed without the prophet speaking to them. On the following day he said to me "Ali, this man interrupted what I wanted to say so that people dispersed before I could speak to them. Prepare the same food for us as you did yesterday, and invite them here." I did this, and brought them food when he called me. He did as The had done the other day, and they ate until they could eat no more.

Then he said, "Bring the bowl," and they drank until they could drink

no more.

Then he spoke to them, saying, "Banu Abd al-Muttalib, I don't know of any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him. Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?" They all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said "I will be your helper, O' prophet of God." He put his hand on the back of my neck and said "This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him.

" They rose up laughing and saying to Abu Talib, "He has commanded you to obey your

son and to obey him!"

Sunni References:

(1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91

(2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62

(3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85

(4) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, p97

(5) Tafsir al-Khazin, by Ala'uddin al-Shafi'i, v3, p371

(6) Shawahid al-Tanzil, by al-Hasakani, v1, p371

(7) Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, p15, pp 100-117

(8) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, v1, p311

(9) Dala'il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Baihaqi, v1, pp 428-430

(10) al-Mukhtasar, by Abul Fida, v1, pp 116-117

(11) Life of Muhammad, by Hasan Haykal, p104 (First Arabic Edition only. In

the second edition the last sentence of Prophet is deleted.)

(12) Tahdhib al-Athar, v4, pp 62-63.

The above tradition was also narrated by important Sunni figures such as Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, Ibn Abu Hatem, and Ibn Mardawayh. It is also recorded by many orientalists including T. Carlyle, E. Gibbon, J. Davenport, and W. Irving.

As we see, Prophet ordered people to LISTEN AND FOLLOW ALI even in his first open preach, that is, when he declared his prophethood openly. "Shia" means "The Followers", and it is exclusively used for "The Followers of Imam Ali". Thus Shia school of thought was in fact established by the Holy Prophet of Islam (PBUH&HF) from the beginning of his mission.

If we follow Imam Ali (s), this is because the Holy Prophet asked us to do so. Moreover, whatever Imam Ali (s) (and other 11 Imams) has said is the exact teachings and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, and whatever Prophet Muhammad has said is the exact teachings and sayings of Allah. This is because the prophets and Imams are infallible and they do not say anything in contrary to what they have been commanded to say.

The next tradition in the History of al-Tabari is as follows:

Narrated Zakariyya Ibn Yahya al-Darir, from Affan Ibn Muslim, from Abu

Awanah, from Uthman Ibn al-Mughirah, from Abu Sadiq, from Rabiah Ibn Najid:

(6) A man said to Ali: "O Commander of believers, how did you become the

heir of your cousin to the exclusion of your paternal uncle?" Ali

said:"Ahem" three times until every body craned their necks and

[Edited Out]ed up their ears, and then said "Prophet invited the whole of the

Banu Abd al-Muttalib, including his own closest relatives, to eat a

year old lamb and to drink some milk. He also prepared a quantity of

wheat for them, and they ate until they were full, while the food

remained as it was, as though it had not been touched. Then he called

for a drinking cup and they drank until they could drink no more,

while the drink remained as though it had not been touched and they

had not drunk. Then he said Banu abd al Muttalib, I have been sent to

all men in general and to you in particular. Now that you have seen

what you have seen, which of you will swear an oath of allegiance to

me to become my brother, my companion, and my inheritor? Not one of

them rose up, so I stood up before him even though I was the youngest

there. He said Sit down. He repeated the words he had spoken for three

times while I would rise up and he would say to me sit down. On the

third occasion, he struck his hand on mine. In this way I became the

heir of my cousin to the exclusion of my uncle."

Sunni References: History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 91-92

Note:

This is only a Small portion of proofs.

Now wait for my reply which will he with you very soon. Inshallah maybe tonight or tomorrow night.

Inshallah

Assalamu alaykum

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My dear brother, like i have said before that, the Quran is the headlines, the large print. If Allah wanted us to just depend and rely on the Quran then, you would have the Quran in the shape of many volumes and then many books. To be continued.

AMEEN before we can go to hadith we need one precise verse where Allah (swt) orders us to do or follow something.

Eg pray salah give Zakah. Now after looking at these verses and we are given precise instructions we can go to hadith.

There is not a single verse where Allah (swt) says he will send imams after prophet (pbuh).

Edited by Just the truth

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AMEEN before we can go to hadith we need one precise verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì orders us to do or follow something.

Eg pray salah give Zakah. Now after looking at these verses and we are given precise instructions we can go to hadith.

There is not a single verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says he will send imams after prophet (pbuh).

 

 

The One Who Gave Zakat While in Ruku was Imam Ali (as).

(salam)

 

 

 

AMEEN before we can go to hadith we need one precise verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì orders us to do or follow something.

Eg pray salah give Zakah. Now after looking at these verses and we are given precise instructions we can go to hadith.

There is not a single verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says he will send imams after prophet (pbuh).

 

Allah has Made a guide for All nations.

Read My previous post please.

There is not a single verse where it says There Will be shura and Abu Bakr is the Khalifa.

I am Disappointed that you repeat this after the verses I mentioned.

(salam)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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The One Who Gave Zakat While in Ruku was Imam Ali (as).

(salam)

Allah has Made a guide for All nations.

Read My previous post please.

There is not a single verse where it says There Will be shura and Abu Bakr is the Khalifa.

I am Disappointed that you repeat this after the verses I mentioned.

(salam)

No brother I'M disappointed at the fact at how you don't call the prophet (pbuh) the guide. The word used in surah 13:7 is qo'om which means nation and nation means ummah. So the prophet (pbuh) is the guide of this ummah. You're mixing up the word qo'om with generations when it means ummah or people. People because we are the people of this ummah/ qo'om I will go deeper into this in my reply.

Inshallah

Assalamu alaykum

Inshalla.

I hope you read it.

(salam)

I'm at work at the moment just skimmed it but will read it properly and deeply when I get home then I will reply.

Inshallah

Assalamu alaykum

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Statement:

No brother I'M disappointed at the fact at how you don't call the prophet (s) the guide. The word used in surah 13:7 is qo'om which means nation and nation means ummah. So the prophet (s) is the guide of this ummah. You're mixing up the word qo'om with generations when it means ummah or people. People because we are the people of this ummah/ qo'om I will go deeper into this in my reply.

your very Ironic. You Did not Even Understand what I explained on this issue. your statement is the opposite to my Opinion which you claimed, Read that I said Previously.

Very Surprising. I in fact Went through this and here you are again Stating the same claim. 

No surprise really, Where there is Imam Ali (s) mentioned, People Like you will always Try to Divert the Issues.

(salam)
 
  

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Statement:

No brother I'M disappointed at the fact at how you don't call the prophet (s) the guide. The word used in surah 13:7 is qo'om which means nation and nation means ummah. So the prophet (s) is the guide of this ummah. You're mixing up the word qo'om with generations when it means ummah or people. People because we are the people of this ummah/ qo'om I will go deeper into this in my reply.

your very Ironic. You Did not Even Understand what I explained on this issue. your statement is the opposite to my Opinion which you claimed, Read that I said Previously.

Very Surprising. I in fact Went through this and here you are again Stating the same claim.

No surprise really, Where there is Imam Ali (s) mentioned, People Like you will always Try to Divert the Issues.

(salam)

That is so not true i love imam ali a.s BUT I refuse to exaggerate his status in any way shape or form.

I will give you a detailed reply

Inshallah

Assalamu alaykum

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That is so not true i love imam ali a.s BUT I refuse to exaggerate his status in any way shape or form.

I will give you a detailed reply

Inshallah

Assalamu alaykum

 

very Ironic Again. Who said We Exaggerate in his status? When the Ahadith State very Clearly That he was the Most loved to the prophet (pbuh). and He is the Khalifa after the prophet (pbuh) as he declared on Ghadir Khum.

(salam)

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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very Ironic Again. Who said We Exaggerate in his status? When the Ahadith State very Clearly That he was the Most loved to the prophet (pbuh). and He is the Khalifa after the prophet (pbuh) as he declared on Ghadir Khum.

(salam)

Like I said I will go through all this in my reply

Assalamu alaykum

Edited by Just the truth

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Brother just the truth, is the Prophet's (pbuh) word not Allah's word??? Is the Prophet's (pbuh) word not good enough??? Or does the Prophet (pbuh) have limited or no authority??? First you disregard the Ulul Amre completely, by saying that you are aloud to disagree with the Ulul Amre, on anything what so ever and when you do disagree then, just simply cick the Ulul Amre on one side, as though he doesn't exist. You are doing the same with the Prophet (pbuh), by disregarding him and wanting everything direct from the Quran. Like i said that, there is no precise

verse in the Quran, which says "obey your parents" but you still believe in obedience towards parents, when there is no direct and precise verse, that tells you to do so.

Tell me how would you prove to a non Muslim that, no one is worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is his messenger???

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Brother just the truth, is the Prophet's (pbuh) word not Allah's word??? Is the Prophet's (pbuh) word not good enough??? Or does the Prophet (pbuh) have limited or no authority??? First you disregard the Ulul Amre completely, by saying that you are aloud to disagree with the Ulul Amre, on anything what so ever and when you do disagree then, just simply cick the Ulul Amre on one side, as though he doesn't exist. You are doing the same with the Prophet (pbuh), by disregarding him and wanting everything direct from the Quran. Like i said that, there is no precise

verse in the Quran, which says "obey your parents" but you still believe in obedience towards parents, when there is no direct and precise verse, that tells you to do so.

Tell me how would you prove to a non Muslim that, no one is worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is his messenger???

AMEEN

YOU SAID

First you disregard the Ulul Amre completely, by saying that you are aloud to disagree with the Ulul Amre, on anything what so ever and when you do disagree then, just simply cick the Ulul Amre on one side,

MY ANSWER

Stop trying to add your own words in. I never said we're allowed to disagree with ulil amr. Read the verse properly it says "IF you disagree".

This doesn't necessarily mean any disagreement may be a bad one. It could be that either the believers or the one in authority may be confused about something. For example;

The ulil amr says you have to pray 5 raka in fajr but the people normal believers say you have to pray 4 or vice versa you see now there is a difference so in this situation we are told to refer it to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) quran and sunnah.

You are trying to twist the meaning. You know it says IF and not ALLOWED. Please read verse carefully.

AND LETS NOT FORGET FEE SHAYIN

...and your last request regarding kalimah is too easy to refute so il leave it to you either in your next post let me know if you still want proof or you think we can find kalimah in quran

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AMEEN

YOU SAID

First you disregard the Ulul Amre completely, by saying that you are aloud to disagree with the Ulul Amre, on anything what so ever and when you do disagree then, just simply cick the Ulul Amre on one side,

MY ANSWER

Stop trying to add your own words in. I never said we're allowed to disagree with ulil amr. Read the verse properly it says "IF you disagree".

This doesn't necessarily mean any disagreement may be a bad one. It could be that either the believers or the one in authority may be confused about something. For example;

The ulil amr says you have to pray 5 raka in fajr but the people normal believers say you have to pray 4 or vice versa you see now there is a difference so in this situation we are told to refer it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh) quran and sunnah.

You are trying to twist the meaning. You know it says IF and not ALLOWED. Please read verse carefully.

AND LETS NOT FORGET FEE SHAYIN

...and your last request regarding kalimah is too easy to refute so il leave it to you either in your next post let me know if you still want proof or you think we can find kalimah in quran

 

 

 

(1) If the prophet (Pbuh) only does what Allah Commands him, then it is impossible for the prophet (s) to appoint someone as Uli al amr that makes mistakes.

How can Allah Appoint someone who he knows will make mistakes? In the Quran Allah Appoints Who he Wills. 

(2) When the verse say if you come to a Disagreement, it does not say that Uli al amr are to blame. It was meant in General terms otherwise if the people disagreed ( their Affairs ) then you would go back to the Quran and what the prophet (s) has said.

(3) If Uli amr made mistakes While being appointed by the prophet (pbuh), Which means being Appointed By Allah, does that mean Allah Will chose Someone Who makes mistakes? Or Would Allah chose someone Who Will not make mistakes and is able to guide the Ummah.

(4) If I asked you, Who is the Uli al amr of your time? What would you say?.....???? and By that I mean the Uli al amr of the Whole Islamic Ummah.

(5) if your say the  verse is just for Saryaain. Than does that mean its just for them? and not the Whole Islamic Ummah? Does that mean at the time the good news and the bad news, and Dangerous news can only come from and go to the Sariayans?? If So the verse is limited for only one time, and if so than this means the verse when saying Obey Allah and the messenger for a limited time?

(salam)   

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(1) If the prophet (Pbuh) only does what Allah Commands him, then it is impossible for the prophet (s) to appoint someone as Uli al amr that makes mistakes.

How can Allah Appoint someone who he knows will make mistakes? In the Quran Allah Appoints Who he Wills.

(2) When the verse say if you come to a Disagreement, it does not say that Uli al amr are to blame. It was meant in General terms otherwise if the people disagreed ( their Affairs ) then you would go back to the Quran and what the prophet (s) has said.

(3) If Uli amr made mistakes While being appointed by the prophet (pbuh), Which means being Appointed By Allah, does that mean Allah Will chose Someone Who makes mistakes? Or Would Allah chose someone Who Will not make mistakes and is able to guide the Ummah.

(4) If I asked you, Who is the Uli al amr of your time? What would you say?.....???? and By that I mean the Uli al amr of the Whole Islamic Ummah.

(5) if your say the verse is just for Saryaain. Than does that mean its just for them? and not the Whole Islamic Ummah? Does that mean at the time the good news and the bad news, and Dangerous news can only come from and go to the Sariayans?? If So the verse is limited for only one time, and if so than this means the verse when saying Obey Allah and the messenger for a limited time?

(salam)

Will get back to you soon need a couple if days

Assalamu alaykum

Edited by Just the truth

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Brother just the truth, tell me why the hell would the Ulul Amre (hakim-e-waqth, inyour case) go severely And openly go against the Quran and the Sunnah, as in the example you have given??? Why would you even select or elect someone as your hakim-e-waqth and accept them as your Ulul Amre to begin with???

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Brother you are discussing and debating, the Ulul Amre verse, with a narrow mind and a tight heart, with double standards and with an hypocritical element. At least be honest with yourself, if not with others. I will tell you how.

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Brother you said "obedience to the Ulul Amre was/is conditional". I've asked you what the condition/s is/are and you said "if the Ulul Amre goes against the Quran and Sunnah, then one doesn't obey them".

Brother have these thoughts and questions ever crossed your mind that, why would Allah ask you to obey such an individual to begin with??? Why would Allah appoint such an individual

In the first place??? Isn't this crystal clear that, who ever goes against the Quran and Sunnah, shouldn't be obeyed??? Doesn't this sound obsured that, if someone goes against the Quran and Sunnah, they should be obeyed???

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Brother you said "obedience to the Ulul Amre was/is conditional". I've asked you what the condition/s is/are and you said "if the Ulul Amre goes against the Quran and Sunnah, then one doesn't obey them".

Brother have these thoughts and questions ever crossed your mind that, why would Allah ask you to obey such an individual to begin with??? Why would Allah appoint such an individual

In the first place??? Isn't this crystal clear that, who ever goes against the Quran and Sunnah, shouldn't be obeyed??? Doesn't this sound obsured that, if someone goes against the Quran and Sunnah, they should be obeyed???

 

 

I actually pointed that out a couple of times, also in my new reply at page 16. The Hadith which Bukhair states on Uli al amr Goes against this logic.

 

(salam)

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@JUSTTHETRUTH

 

You said a While ago, you will not accept any Hadith, if the foundation of it is not in the Quran.

Then How can you accept Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman as your Khalifa? When Shura as not been mentioned for the Ummah of The prophet (pbuh)? In fact, it is no where mentioned in the terms of Allah's Affairs.


 

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@JUSTTHETRUTH

 

You said a While ago, you will not accept any Hadith, if the foundation of it is not in the Quran.

Then How can you accept Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman as your Khalifa? When Shura as not been mentioned for the Ummah of The prophet (pbuh)? In fact, it is no where mentioned in the terms of Allah's Affairs.

 

 

Lets Know Shura First Brother, Whats Shura, What are its basis and some examples isn't it?

 

I believe Things Happened should not be a thing to hit arrows at each other , But to redefine with understandings.InshaAllah.

 

So we Need to see.

 

Shura System in Shias

 

Shura System in Sunnis.

 

And This Discussion will be good, Coz we Have a Shura Concerning Imam Mahdi In Near Future isn't It?

Edited by Masp

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Exactly brother Islam history. "fee shay inn" means "on anything" or "in anything but within what or regarding what??? He believes that it is a general statement and i believe it is a specific statement. Why would Allah say to Muslims that, if your Muslim parents or your Muslim Ulul Amre commands/orders you, to go against the Quran or Sunnah, then do not obey them??? Where is the sense and logic in this??? Which Muslims parents or Muslim Ulul Amre, would ask you to do that or even think of this??? Going against Quran and Sunnah, in such a way, manner or fashion is kufar. It throws you straight out of the fold of Islam. By doing such one has just become a Kafir.

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Lets Know Shura First Brother, Whats Shura, What are its basis and some examples isn't it?

 

I believe Things Happened should not be a thing to hit arrows at each other , But to redefine with understandings.InshaAllah.

 

So we Need to see.

 

Shura System in Shias

 

Shura System in Sunnis.

 

And This Discussion will be good, Coz we Have a Shura Concerning Imam Mahdi In Near Future isn't It?

 

(1) There is No shura when it comes to Appointing The Successors of the prophet (pbuh)

For Only Allah Chooses.

(2) Imam Mahdi (a.f) is not chosen by Shura, He is Appointed By Allah.

(3) Please do not Barge into this topic without reading the previous posts thanks.

(4) this Topic Is not about Shura.

(salam)

 

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(1) There is No shura when it comes to Appointing The Successors of the prophet (pbuh)

For Only Allah Chooses.

(2) Imam Mahdi (a.f) is not chosen by Shura, He is Appointed By Allah.

(3) Please do not Barge into this topic without reading the previous posts thanks.

(4) this Topic Is not about Shura.

(salam)

 

 

Exactly, Why Going Round and Round having Food....

 

Brother, Why Complicate The Matters, Its not about Barging, Its a simple understanding...

 

Or Its a Motive to Acceptance. Ok Who Appointed Hazrat Ali, He Himself, Or Allah , Or People Acknowledged It.

 

Or Is it a Connectivity Issue?

 

Yes, Imam Mahdi Appointed By Allah, What About The Acceptance of The People?

 

Even That Should be Already decreed Matter By Allah.

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AMEEN

YOU SAID

First you disregard the Ulul Amre completely, by saying that you are aloud to disagree with the Ulul Amre, on anything what so ever and when you do disagree then, just simply cick the Ulul Amre on one side,

MY ANSWER

Stop trying to add your own words in. I never said we're allowed to disagree with ulil amr. Read the verse properly it says "IF you disagree".

This doesn't necessarily mean any disagreement may be a bad one. It could be that either the believers or the one in authority may be confused about something. For example;

The ulil amr says you have to pray 5 raka in fajr but the people normal believers say you have to pray 4 or vice versa you see now there is a difference so in this situation we are told to refer it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh) quran and sunnah.

You are trying to twist the meaning. You know it says IF and not ALLOWED. Please read verse carefully.

AND LETS NOT FORGET FEE SHAYIN

...and your last request regarding kalimah is too easy to refute so il leave it to you either in your next post let me know if you still want proof or you think we can find kalimah in quran

Brother, I have read the verse properly and it says "And if you disagree", now what does this mean??? That you are allowed to disagree. This is what I exactly said.

You said "This doesn't necessarily mean, any disagreement", but you said in your previous post that, you can disagree with your Ulul Amre, over anything and that means, anything at all, everything. "And if you disagree, fee shay inn, meaning, in anything and that means, anything at all".

Why are you suddenly playing around with your own words???

Why would the Ulul Amre say "pray 5 raka'ath in dawn prayers"??? This is a clear violation of Sharia law. Such matters are crystal clear and are well known through out. There can't be a misunderstanding on such matters. One would only do this deliberately and knowingly. What you are saying doesn't make any sense at all. Why would the Ulul Amre, being a Muslim and leading the Muslim Ummah, go against the Quran and Sunnah, to begin with???

If we are told to refer the matter back towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) and that is to turn to Quran and Sunnah, don't you think the Ulul Amre would be familiar with this too??? What kind of a leader are you trying to show the Ulul Amre here??? That the people are more knowledgeable and informative, than the Ulul Amre himself??? The understanding and explanation you're giving about the Ulul Amre, shows the Ulul Amre as some kind of idiot.

It says "if" and not "allowed"??? Brother "if you disagree" means, you are allowed to disagree. If you are not allowed to disagree, then there would be no "if". Try and make some sense.

What I asked you was, if there is a non Muslim, a person who does not believe in the Quran or the Messenger (pbuh), then how would you prove to him that, there is no one worthy of worship, except Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is his Messenger??? What??? Show him the Kalimah from the Quran??? Man, the person doesn't even believe in the Quran to begin with. How would you prove to this person that, the Quran is the book of Allah???? Here both, the Quran and the Messenger(pbuh), meaningless to the person. So what will you do???

Edited by Ameen

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