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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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The word "god" has two meanings in every language. It has a meaning that which is worshipped, and that what is worthy of worship.

 

"Authority" "Leader" likewise, has two different meanings. For example, the Quran state the unjust would not be made leaders. At other times, it talks about God making leaders who call to the fire like the Pharaoh. 

 

In a sense, Pharaoh was an authority, in the sense he was obeyed and followed and taken as authority. In the same way Jesus is a god, in the sense people take him as a god. In another sense, Pharaoh was not an authority or leader, in the same Jesus is not a god.

 

When we come across the verse 4:59, we obviously have to ask, in what sense of authority is the verse intending.

 

If it's intending all those have authority in the sense, people take them as authorities, then you will have many authorities. For example, if you were a transformer, both Optimus Prime and Megatron would be authorities, and per this verse you must obey them both.

 

In this sense, both Mauwiya and Ali ibn Abi Talib would be authorities and leaders even while fighting each other. Obviously you cannot obey both of them.

 

Now if it means in the sense of ought to be followed, ought to be obeyed, having true authority over you....what is the criteria of such authority?

 

A person maybe a good just and wise, but how would the people know that?  

 

If God appoints a leader, obviously, such authority would stem from God's authority.

 

In absence of such a leader, I would think, that no person can have authority, but instead government should be formed to implement the will of the masses, and not make the masses subject to the will of a leader.

 

In this sense, government shouldn't have authority but should be seen as a job in implementing the will of the masses. 

 

In light of this logic, isn't it suggestive that then the Ulil-Amr if this verse is truly revealed by God, are divinely appointed authorities in the same way as Prophets?

 

 

 

 

 

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In light of this logic, isn't it suggestive that then the Ulil-Amr if this verse is truly revealed by God, are divinely appointed authorities in the same way as Prophets?

Yes, this is what the Imāmī (Shi'i) Branch or School of Thought believe. Ahlul-Sunnah disagree with us on this point and this is the major issue that separates the two biggest groups of Muslims.

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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Well not all Shias. There are those who have given the Faqih (Wilayatal Faqih) the same authority with regards to political and social affairs, as the Prophets and Imams.

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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True, but it would invalidate the logic that Ulil-Amr must be divinely appointed and disagree with the reasoning I showed.

Hmm, not exactly. I do see your point though.

You said: "In absence of such a leader, I would think, that no person can have authority, but instead government should be formed to implement the will of the masses, and not make the masses subject to the will of a leader."

I and I think most would agree (or at least to some extent). No one can have this authority (Imamah - divine authority) in the absense of such an individual, an Imām in this case, but if the people have the ability to form a government they can if they feel its in the best interest of the Ummah.

What do you think of that?

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"When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By "authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic62  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other."

http://rkhomeini.org.temporaryurl.net/eBook/dispContents.cfm?book_id=76&start_page=45

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"When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By "authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic62  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other."

http://rkhomeini.org.temporaryurl.net/eBook/dispContents.cfm?book_id=76&start_page=45

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"When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By "authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic62  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other."

http://rkhomeini.org.temporaryurl.net/eBook/dispContents.cfm?book_id=76&start_page=45

 

[4:43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Well not all Shias. There are those who have given the Faqih (Wilayatal Faqih) the same authority with regards to political and social affairs, as the Prophets and Imams.

This is misunderstood. They believe that the Faqih has that authority after doing ijtehad to ascertain what the infallible would have done. If that faqih makes a clear mistake then they are not to be obeyed.

 

Authority/administration is like a vacuum, if you don't fill it, something else will. These shia who get upset by WF mutlaq should know that by removing authority from the pious they are giving it to the impious. 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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[4:43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

This is misunderstood. They believe that the Faqih has that authority after doing ijtehad to ascertain what the infallible would have done. If that faqih makes a clear mistake then they are not to be obeyed.

 

Authority/administration is like a vacuum, if you don't fill it, something else will. These shia who get upset by WF mutlaq should know that by removing authority from the pious they are giving it to the impious. 

 

Well you can give power to the people.  There is no democratic society in the world. There are republics but no democracies.

 

A democracy in reality doesn't give authority to government, government is just a job where those people have to implement the will of the masses. A republic on the other hand,  has people in authority, but chosen by the people to lead them. The people in authority don't seek to implement the will of the masses, but rather, gain the trust of the masses and think and rule for them.

 

I don't believe in a republic. The state of tricking people is to the degree, that people believe they are a democracy when in fact, they are a republic.

 

With republics, I feel a few people are able to manipulate the masses. With a democracy, I feel the authority is widespread, and will become more grassroots.

 

Of course, a democracy will be a total disaster without knowledge and wisdom being widespread in the masses.

 

As for government being a social contract, I don't ever remember being able to decide whether I want to sign or not, on a republic contract.

 

Anyways, long story short: you don't have to fill the vacuum with authorities, you can give to the people and make a true democracy.

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Well you can give power to the people.  There is no democratic society in the world. There are republics but no democracies.

 

A democracy in reality doesn't give authority to government, government is just a job where those people have to implement the will of the masses. A republic on the other hand,  has people in authority, but chosen by the people to lead them. The people in authority don't seek to implement the will of the masses, but rather, gain the trust of the masses and think and rule for them.

 

I don't believe in a republic. The state of tricking people is to the degree, that people believe they are a democracy when in fact, they are a republic.

 

With republics, I feel a few people are able to manipulate the masses. With a democracy, I feel the authority is widespread, and will become more grassroots.

 

Of course, a democracy will be a total disaster without knowledge and wisdom being widespread in the masses.

 

As for government being a social contract, I don't ever remember being able to decide whether I want to sign or not, on a republic contract.

 

Anyways, long story short: you don't have to fill the vacuum with authorities, you can give to the people and make a true democracy.

 

Democracy is no where in the Quran, to appoint an Imam (guide) for the people.

And Imam Must be chosen By Allah, appointed by the prophet (s). Your bringing 

Wilayat al faqih with another thing that is totally different. Wilayat al FAqih is not Obligatory,

And nor is it wanted in Islam. Its just a state where you have a governmental rulers who rules under the Islamic

law which the masses (society) agree upon, therefore letting him be in sucha position. Sayed Ali Al Khamenei (qas)

Him self as a Muslim believes in Divine Authority (the 12th Imam). You my dear friend, An Imam (guide, Uli Al Amr) is another,

and Wilayat al Faqih is another.   

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Democracy is no where in the Quran, to appoint an Imam (guide) for the people.

And Imam Must be chosen By Allah, appointed by the prophet (s). Your bringing

Wilayat al faqih with another thing that is totally different. Wilayat al FAqih is not Obligatory,

And nor is it wanted in Islam. Its just a state where you have a governmental rulers who rules under the Islamic

law which the masses (society) agree upon, therefore letting him be in sucha position. Sayed Ali Al Khamenei (qas)

Him self as a Muslim believes in Divine Authority (the 12th Imam). You my dear friend, An Imam (guide, Uli Al Amr) is another,

and Wilayat al Faqih is another.

USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah (swt) talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah (swt) tells us he (swt) one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah (swt) does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah (swt) talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah (swt) talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

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USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tells us he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

Your making the same Questions On the same thread before on "Appointing a Successor", please Review our argument.

No need to spam the chat.

 

Salam   

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USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tells us he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

We have lots of Shias who do everything that is against what the imams taught us while we have lots of Sunnis who love and respect and follow the imams. Then how can we call all Sunnis as non Muslims? For us, Intention matters and not just words from the mouth.

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Your making the same Questions On the same thread before on "Appointing a Successor", please Review our argument.

No need to spam the chat.

Salam

My brother if you answered with an answer that actually made sense I wouldn't need to ask this question on different threads.

We have lots of Shias who do everything that is against what the imams taught us while we have lots of Sunnis who love and respect and follow the imams. Then how can we call all Sunnis as non Muslims? For us, Intention matters and not just words from the mouth.

My dear brother your answer makes no sense whatsoever because;

Lets say there was somebody who respected and loved the prophet (pbuh) and listened to everything he said yet he refused to believe in his prophethood which is usul ad din ( foundation). Is he a Muslim???? Of course not.

Similarly even if SUNNIS respect the imams we still refused to believe that he is appointed by Allah (swt) which is usul ad din (foundation). How can we SUNNIS remain Muslims by rejecting an usul ad din??

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My brother if you answered with an answer that actually made sense I wouldn't need to ask this question on different threads.

My dear brother your answer makes no sense whatsoever because;

Lets say there was somebody who respected and loved the prophet (pbuh) and listened to everything he said yet he refused to believe in his prophethood which is usul ad din ( foundation). Is he a Muslim???? Of course not.

Similarly even if SUNNIS respect the imams we still refused to believe that he is appointed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì which is usul ad din (foundation). How can we SUNNIS remain Muslims by rejecting an usul ad din??

 

My brother if you answered with an answer that actually made sense I wouldn't need to ask this question on different threads.

My dear brother your answer makes no sense whatsoever because;

Lets say there was somebody who respected and loved the prophet (pbuh) and listened to everything he said yet he refused to believe in his prophethood which is usul ad din ( foundation). Is he a Muslim???? Of course not.

Similarly even if SUNNIS respect the imams we still refused to believe that he is appointed by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì which is usul ad din (foundation). How can we SUNNIS remain Muslims by rejecting an usul ad din??

My answers Made sense, but you did not reply to my Ahadith proof You only replied to the the issue of Purification and and left out the Imam Ali (s) ahadith in his Khilafa.

For your Statements I will not only make a reply, This time, if you reject the Ahadith about Wilyat, I assure you only ignoring.

keep an eye for my reply.

saalam 

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My answers Made sense, but you did not reply to my Ahadith proof You only replied to the the issue of Purification and and left out the Imam Ali (s) ahadith in his Khilafa.

For your Statements I will not only make a reply, This time, if you reject the Ahadith about Wilyat, I assure you only ignoring.

keep an eye for my reply.

saalam

My dear brother inshallah I will keep a look out for your reply BUT you need to go and look at my latest reply regarding ali a.s which I made today, I answered you, yet you can't answer me this:

If I reject angels which is usul ad din am I a Muslim?? Of course not

Now If I reject imate i am a Muslim according to shia, why??

Why different rules regarding usul ad dins???

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My dear brother inshallah I will keep a look out for your reply BUT you need to go and look at my latest reply regarding ali a.s which I made today, I answered you, yet you can't answer me this:

If I reject angels which is usul ad din am I a Muslim?? Of course not

Now If I reject imate i am a Muslim according to shia, why??

Why different rules regarding usul ad dins???

 

again I don't have to answer you in Multiple posts.

Second of All I answered that Question and your Returning like a Marry 'go round.

Third of All yes I saw you reply about Imam Ali (s), And I was surprised.

I advise you learn the meaning of Wilaya in Arabic and also the Prophet (s) said said 

Ali Is the Khalifa after me." and yet no reply to that Hadith.

 

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again I don't have to answer you in Multiple posts.

Second of All I answered that Question and your Returning like a Marry 'go round.

Third of All yes I saw you reply about Imam Ali (s), And I was surprised.

I advise you learn the meaning of Wilaya in Arabic and also the Prophet (s) said said

Ali Is the Khalifa after me." and yet no reply to that Hadith.

My dear brother this is the problem with Shias you live playing Lego with the quran by pointing out one verse without looking at the previous or next verse.

You argue that the verse of wilayah does not mean friendship but guardian/ leader etc but we SUNNIS say this is talking about FRIENDSHIP now lets read the verse of wilayah and then read the verse after it where Allah swt continues

5:55

to top

Sahih International

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

5:56

to top

Sahih International

And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

So my brother look at the verse straight after it and our the word leader or guardian instead of friend/ ally.

This is what you end up with if Allah swt was talking about leadership/ guardian:

Sahih International

Your GUARDIAN/LEADER is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

5:56

to top

Sahih International

And whoever is an GUARDIAN/ LEADER of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

astagfirullah does this make any sense us Muslims being guardians of Allah???

You accuse me my dear brother of not answering you when I have please read my post in the other thread properly.

Ali is the friend/ally of all believers he is the WALIALLAH of Allah (peer)

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My dear brother this is the problem with Shias you live playing Lego with the quran by pointing out one verse without looking at the previous or next verse.

You argue that the verse of wilayah does not mean friendship but guardian/ leader etc but we SUNNIS say this is talking about FRIENDSHIP now lets read the verse of wilayah and then read the verse after it where Allah swt continues

5:55

to top

Sahih International

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

5:56

to top

Sahih International

And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

So my brother look at the verse straight after it and our the word leader or guardian instead of friend/ ally.

This is what you end up with if Allah swt was talking about leadership/ guardian:

Sahih International

Your GUARDIAN/LEADER is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

5:56

to top

Sahih International

And whoever is an GUARDIAN/ LEADER of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

astagfirullah does this make any sense us Muslims being guardians of Allah???

You accuse me my dear brother of not answering you when I have please read my post in the other thread properly.

Ali is the friend/ally of all believers he is the WALIALLAH of Allah (peer)

 

 

 

Reading...."shia playing Logo* Scrolls down......

Thank you. Mashalla.

Refer back to appointing Imams. 

Why can't you wait?

Salam

By the way You pointed out that verse:

 

Your GUARDIAN/LEADER is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

I think you know this better than me the verse is not referring to every believer.

Its Referring to Imam Ali (as) whi gave Zakat While he was in the position of Bowing.

I will go deeper into this on my next reply.

salam.

  

In addition since you don't know Arabic, Brother in Arabic Each Word has at least 5 meanings.

Your using English to Justify your point which is very weak. Your Conclusion is vague.

You infact ignored most of my work I put up. Thank you very much.  

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Reading...."shia playing Logo* Scrolls down......

Thank you. Mashalla.

Refer back to appointing Imams.

Why can't you wait?

Salam

By the way You pointed out that verse:

Your GUARDIAN/LEADER is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

I think you know this better than me the verse is not referring to every believer.

Its Referring to Imam Ali (as) whi gave Zakat While he was in the position of Bowing.

I will go deeper into this on my next reply.

salam.

In addition since you don't know Arabic, Brother in Arabic Each Word has at least 5 meanings.

Your using English to Justify your point which is very weak. Your Conclusion is vague.

You infact ignored most of my work I put up. Thank you very much.

I won't reply until you post your full reply on the other thread my dear brother. Happy??

Thanks for the insult regarding me not knowing Arabic.

Salams

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I won't reply until you post your full reply on the other thread my dear brother. Happy??

Thanks for the insult regarding me not knowing Arabic.

Salams

 

Insult? I was Giving you a fact..? 

wa al salam. 

 

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My dear brother this is the problem with Shias you live playing Lego with the quran by pointing out one verse without looking at the previous or next verse.

You argue that the verse of wilayah does not mean friendship but guardian/ leader etc but we SUNNIS say this is talking about FRIENDSHIP now lets read the verse of wilayah and then read the verse after it where Allah swt continues

5:55

to top

Sahih International

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

5:56

to top

Sahih International

And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

So my brother look at the verse straight after it and our the word leader or guardian instead of friend/ ally.

This is what you end up with if Allah swt was talking about leadership/ guardian:

Sahih International

Your GUARDIAN/LEADER is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

5:56

to top

Sahih International

And whoever is an GUARDIAN/ LEADER of Allah and His Messenger and those who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the predominant.

astagfirullah does this make any sense us Muslims being guardians of Allah???

You accuse me my dear brother of not answering you when I have please read my post in the other thread properly.

Ali is the friend/ally of all believers he is the WALIALLAH of Allah (peer)

Very well said and nicely put forward. I have also read your posts from other threads. As soon as i finish work i will respond to your points.

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USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tells us he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

 

 

 

OK!

According to Ahle Tashee or lets say the Fiqah Jaffaria school of thought, the principals of faith [usool-e-Deen] are 5. And they are 1, Tauheed. 2, Adal. 3, Nabuwath. 4, Imaamath. 5, Qeyaamath. You have very clearly spoken about 4 and you have questioned 1 and that is Imaamath.

 

Before I go ahead and answer your questions and comment on your points, lets first of all take a look at the 3rd and that is Nabuwath. Allah has sent 124,000 Messengers as divine guides for the guidance of mankind. This is the Ahle Tashee belief and i am absolutely sure the Ahle Sunnah believe in this as well. Can you prove this directly from the Quran and show me the exact names of these 124,000 Messengers straight from the Quran??? I can give you many questions as such and I can put forward many cases as such and ask you to prove me directly from the Quran.

 

My friend the Quran is not alone, therefore it is not enough on its own. We also have the Sunnah. Both the Quran and Sunnah are pointless on their own. The Quran is the headlines and the Sunnah is the rest of the news in detail. The Quran is the large print and the Sunnah is the small print. Both are very much connected and need and rely on each other.

 

Allah has clearly mentioned and spoke about Imaamath in the Quran and there are many verses to back this up, which have already been put forward in discussions on this site as well as others. Let me give you a few hints: 1, The one who dies without knowing and recognizing the Imaam of his generation and time dies the death of a jahil. 2, Abraham was put to a test by his Lord and when he succeeded he was made an Imaam of the people. And so on.

 

Now we already know and are aware of the two supreme authorities that, we have sworn allegiance to and are an absolute part of our faith and who we show obedience to, without a shadow of a doubt what so ever. Allah has extended that authority by bringing in a third party and put them in the same line as him (Allah) and his Messenger. Allah has clearly shown the sequence of this authority in verses 4:49 or 59 [ulul-Amre] and 5:55 or 56 [Wali-Kum] and has very clearly highlighted the level and standard of the authority of the third party, by putting them in line with him and his Messenger and in the same sequence.

 

One can't discuss and debate or put their thought, opinion and point of view forward, whether the authority of the third party exists or not and to what level and standard. But one can discuss/debate etc about who this third party is and this is where the Quran and also the Sunnah both come straight into action. Yes Imaamath is from principals of faith [usool-e-Deen] and without Imaamath ones faith and belief is absolutely and surely incomplete, without a shadow of a doubt.

 

Calling somebody a Kafir??? Accusing somebody of Kufar??? This is not the way of Ahle Tashee and has never been. Belief and faith is something that lies with you and your Allah. Everybody has a civil and religious right to live and express and excecise their belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view but in a pleasant manner. I am going to leave it here for the moment. I will comment on the point [Wali] regarding verse 5:55 which you have made. To be continued.

Edited by Ameen

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USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tells us he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

OK!

According to Ahle Tashee or lets say the Fiqah Jaffaria school of thought, the principals of faith [usool-e-Deen] are 5. And they are 1, Tauheed. 2, Adal. 3, Nabuwath. 4, Imaamath. 5, Qeyaamath. You have very clearly spoken about 4 and you have questioned 1 and that is Imaamath.

Before I go ahead and answer your questions and comment on your points, lets first of all take a look at the 3rd and that is Nabuwath. Allah has sent 124,000 Messengers as divine guides for the guidance of mankind. This is the Ahle Tashee belief and i am absolutely sure the Ahle Sunnah believe in this as well. Can you prove this directly from the Quran and show me the exact names of these 124,000 Messengers straight from the Quran??? I can give you many questions as such and I can put forward many cases as such and ask you to prove me directly from the Quran.

My friend the Quran is not alone, therefore it is not enough on its own. We also have the Sunnah. Both the Quran and Sunnah are pointless on their own. The Quran is the headlines and the Sunnah is the rest of the news in detail. The Quran is the large print and the Sunnah is the small print. Both are very much connected and need and rely on each other.

Allah has clearly mentioned and spoke about Imaamath in the Quran and there are many verses to back this up, which have already been put forward in discussions on this site as well as others. Let me give you a few hints: 1, The one who dies without knowing and recognizing the Imaam of his generation and time dies the death of a jahil. 2, Abraham was put to a test by his Lord and when he succeeded he was made an Imaam of the people. And so on.

Now we already know and are aware of the two supreme authorities that, we have sworn allegiance to and are an absolute part of our faith and who we show obedience to, without a shadow of a doubt what so ever. Allah has extended that authority by bringing in a third party and put them in the same line as him (Allah) and his Messenger. Allah has clearly shown the sequence of this authority in verses 4:49 or 59 [ulul-Amre] and 5:55 or 56 [Wali-Kum] and has very clearly highlighted the level and standard of the authority of the third party, by putting them in line with him and his Messenger and in the same sequence.

One can't discuss and debate or put their thought, opinion and point of view forward, whether the authority of the third party exists or not and to what level and standard. But one can discuss/debate etc about who this third party is and this is where the Quran and also the Sunnah both come straight into action. Yes Imaamath is from principals of faith [usool-e-Deen] and without Imaamath ones faith and belief is absolutely and surely incomplete, without a shadow of a doubt.

Calling somebody a Kafir??? Accusing somebody of Kufar??? This is not the way of Ahle Tashee and has never been. Belief and faith is something that lies with you and your Allah. Everybody has a civil and religious right to live and express and excecise their belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view but in a pleasant manner. I am going to leave it here for the moment. I will comment on the point [Wali] regarding verse 5:55 which you have made. To be continued.

Assalamu alaykum AMEEN

Firsrly I would like to thank you for attempting to answering my questions may Allah bless you and guide you. Ameen.

Brother firstly you need to understand that I'm not asking for names of your imams in the quran nor am I asking for a specific number as to how many imams there will be.

There is something by brother you need to understand is and that is that when someone claims that such a such thing is usul ad din in islam then the first thing you would do is put forward this challenge to them:

Surah 3:7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So as you can see at the start of this verse the two words in block capital have to be met otherwise that usul ad din is null.

I have in recent posts in this thread pointed out PRECISE verses where we are told other usul ad dins.(foundations) precisely.

YOU SAID

The Quran is the large print and the Sunnah is the small print. Both are very much connected and need and rely on each other.

MY ANSWER

My dear brother before we jump onto the "small print" we need to meet the criteria given in the "large print" in surah 3: 7 and that is we first need to find a PRECISE verse where Allah says for eg;

After the prophet there will be imams who should follow.

This is what you call PRECISE my dear brother.

My dear brother when we talk about ulil amr we should look at he whole verse and try to understand it deeply otherwise we will go astray.

Now surah 4:59

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Firstly this verse is not precise as the ulil amr can be anyone. Army leader etc. it does not say that the ulil amr will come after the prophet(pbuh).

Also if you look into the second part of the verse;

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

When Allah says "if you disagree over anything" who is Allah (swt) talking about?? Disagree with who??

Allah?

Messenger?

Or ulil amr?

I think as you and me know here Allah (swt) is talking about disagreeing with ulil amr.

So when shia argue that ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet (pbuh) this is not true, because we are not allowed to disagree with the prophet (pbuh) as he is appointed by Allah.

On the other hand "if we disagree" with ulil amr refer it to Allah and messenger. In other words quran and hadith.

My question to you is that if we differ with ulil amr and then have to refer it back to Allah swt and messenger then why can't a falliable to such a thing.

What is the point of having an appointed infalliable imam if we have to go back to square one and refer it to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh)??

Why can't we refer an falliable leader back to quran and hadith?? ... And if he refuses to rectify himself then he should be fought like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought and was backed by abu hanifah.

YOU SAID

Calling somebody a Kafir??? Accusing somebody of Kufar??? This is not the way of Ahle Tashee and has never been

MY ANSWER

So i take it you don't classify qadianis kafir??

Well lets be honest here bro they only rejecting finality of prophethood so are crashing head on into nubuwwah which is usul ad din. Imamat and nubuwwah are both usul ad din my dear brother according to shia.

Also what do you think your scholars would say to someone who rejected lets say..... Yawm al qiyamah??

Muslim or kafir ??

Why one rule for one usul ad din and then a different rule for another usul ad din??

Salams my dear brother.

Edited by Just the truth

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Assalamu alaykum AMEEN

Firsrly I would like to thank you for attempting to answering my questions may Allah bless you and guide you. Ameen.

Brother firstly you need to understand that I'm not asking for names of your imams in the quran nor am I asking for a specific number as to how many imams there will be.

There is something by brother you need to understand is and that is that when someone claims that such a such thing is usul ad din in islam then the first thing you would do is put forward this challenge to them:

Surah 3:7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So as you can see at the start of this verse the two words in block capital have to be met otherwise that usul ad din is null.

I have in recent posts in this thread pointed out PRECISE verses where we are told other usul ad dins.(foundations) precisely.

YOU SAID

The Quran is the large print and the Sunnah is the small print. Both are very much connected and need and rely on each other.

MY ANSWER

My dear brother before we jump onto the "small print" we need to meet the criteria given in the "large print" in surah 3: 7 and that is we first need to find a PRECISE verse where Allah says for eg;

After the prophet there will be imams who should follow.

This is what you call PRECISE my dear brother.

My dear brother when we talk about ulil amr we should look at he whole verse and try to understand it deeply otherwise we will go astray.

Now surah 4:59

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Firstly this verse is not precise as the ulil amr can be anyone. Army leader etc. it does not say that the ulil amr will come after the prophet(pbuh).

Also if you look into the second part of the verse;

And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

When Allah says "if you disagree over anything" who is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talking about?? Disagree with who??

Allah?

Messenger?

Or ulil amr?

I think as you and me know here Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about disagreeing with ulil amr.

So when shia argue that ulil amr has the same authority as the prophet (pbuh) this is not true, because we are not allowed to disagree with the prophet (pbuh) as he is appointed by Allah.

On the other hand "if we disagree" with ulil amr refer it to Allah and messenger. In other words quran and hadith.

My question to you is that if we differ with ulil amr and then have to refer it back to Allah swt and messenger then why can't a falliable to such a thing.

What is the point of having an appointed infalliable imam if we have to go back to square one and refer it to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and messenger (pbuh)??

Why can't we refer an falliable leader back to quran and hadith?? ... And if he refuses to rectify himself then he should be fought like imam zayd ibn ali a.s fought and was backed by abu hanifah.

YOU SAID

Calling somebody a Kafir??? Accusing somebody of Kufar??? This is not the way of Ahle Tashee and has never been

MY ANSWER

So i take it you don't classify qadianis kafir??

Well lets be honest here bro they only rejecting finality of prophethood so are crashing head on into nubuwwah which is usul ad din. Imamat and nubuwwah are both usul ad din my dear brother according to shia.

Also what do you think your scholars would say to someone who rejected lets say..... Yawm al qiyamah??

Muslim or kafir ??

Why one rule for one usul ad din and then a different rule for another usul ad din??

Salams my dear brother.

 

I already answered that in the previous post.

Why do you spam the same Questions?

"You desire the answer that you want to be Satisfied with,

And not the answer which shows you righteousness."  

 

 

 

 

Ameen, don't waste your time, He wants everything From the Quran as a Direct Meaning. Like A B and C.

He won't accept Ahadith either.

 

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

I see how you are now starting to get frustrated because you are baced up into a corner and can't find s way out. My dear brother the questions I'm asking you cannot possible answer with an answer that actually makes sense so you're getting frustrated. Let me fill you in my dear brother on something, there are only two possible answers to my question:

1: there is a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imamat and sunni are kafir for rejecting a direct and precise instruction of Allah (swt). Like they would be kafir for rejecting ANY other usul ad din.

2. There isn't a precise verse on imamat in the quran and therefore imamat fails the challenge in surah 3:7 and sunni are Muslims and imamat is not usul ad din.

YOU CHOOSE???

My dear brother I am NOT a quranist but before you can prove your fundamental beliefs you have to prove then from the quran. You cannot just jump straight to hadith.

The Christians have the same problem because they cannot prove there fundamental belief in the bible, they cannot find a precise verse so they end up picking out verses and play around with them but they forget that a fundamental belief of any religion should be clear as day in their holy books.

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No problem, I see you don't have a solid answer.

So you choose to retreat.

Wa al Salam

 

Yes, I don't have the answer you desire, that you will be satisfied with.

You made no sense in your logic. and Your Question my Arguments,

with "no reply, move one" Technique, you will notice on the 7th or 6th

of the "Appointing a successor." you did not answer my Question. And

Any one who reads the thread will know how many times you repeated

your Question and dogged mine. You basically ask people to give you

and answer which suits what you want to believe and not the answer

that will refute your beliefs. I gave you solid Proof dear friend and you

did not comment on the Sunni-Tafsir Copied Scanned proof.

When you said: "I see you retreated" this shows that your goal

was to prove one wrong and not research. Anyone will no this by reading

your arguments.

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Yes, I don't have the answer you desire, that you will be satisfied with.

You made no sense in your logic. and Your Question my Arguments,

with "no reply, move one" Technique, you will notice on the 7th or 6th

of the "Appointing a successor." you did not answer my Question. And

Any one who reads the thread will know how many times you repeated

your Question and dogged mine. You basically ask people to give you

and answer which suits what you want to believe and not the answer

that will refute your beliefs. I gave you solid Proof dear friend and you

did not comment on the Sunni-Tafsir Copied Scanned proof.

When you said: "I see you retreated" this shows that your goal

was to prove one wrong and not research. Anyone will no this by reading

your arguments.

1: there is a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imamat and sunni are kafir for rejecting a direct and precise instruction of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Like they would be kafir for rejecting ANY other usul ad din.

2. There isn't a precise verse on imamat in the quran and therefore imamat fails the challenge in surah 3:7 and sunni are Muslims and imamat is not usul ad din.

YOU CHOOSE???

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1: there is a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imamat and sunni are kafir for rejecting a direct and precise instruction of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Like they would be kafir for rejecting ANY other usul ad din.

2. There isn't a precise verse on imamat in the quran and therefore imamat fails the challenge in surah 3:7 and sunni are Muslims and imamat is not usul ad din.

YOU CHOOSE???

I have explained this Answer before, And I told you yes it is from Usool al Deen, But one who says the Shahdatayen is Muslim, but without Imamate you cannot be considered as a "mo'omen.". To be as general simply-put: Muslim, One must say the Shahaatayen. In Addition since your sunni you have to believe in the four Caliphs which Includes Ali (s). But To us Abu bakr, Uthman, Umar ibn al khattab, are not Caliphs, they made them selves Caliphs by pen and paper, but the prophet (s) Declared Wilayat Ali (s) in the day of Ghadir Khum and he said the Word "Khalifa" and I proved it through Authentic Traditions.

Don't tell me to choose, when the Question it self is Invaild.

  

Wa al salam   

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Salaam dear brothers (Just the truth and The Islam history). Just going to stat work very soon. I have read your posts and thanx for the reply. Will speak to both of you soon. We are all brothers in Islam regardless of our difference in opinion. We can do this with a positive attitude and with a pleasant manner.

Is

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I have explained this Answer before, And I told you yes it is from Usool al Deen, But one who says the Shahdatayen is Muslim, but without Imamate you cannot be considered as a "mo'omen.". To be as general simply-put: Muslim, One must say the Shahaatayen. In Addition since your sunni you have to believe in the four Caliphs which Includes Ali (s). But To us Abu bakr, Uthman, Umar ibn al khattab, are not Caliphs, they made them selves Caliphs by pen and paper, but the prophet (s) Declared Wilayat Ali (s) in the day of Ghadir Khum and he said the Word "Khalifa" and I proved it through Authentic Traditions.

Don't tell me to choose, when the Question it self is Invaild.

Wa al salam

SORRY THIS POST IS TO AMEEN

Salams my dear brother. So by reading your post I see you have said that by reading the kalimah one is a Muslim, which is totally true, BUT my dear brother let me ask you this one question.

If I reject salah, I'm not saying dont pray it I'm saying totally reject it then am I still Muslim?

Your point you made between momin and Muslim makes no real sense in the debate we are having.

Now if a person is momin by accepting Imamate (usul ad din) and only a Muslim by rejecting imamat (usul adin) then isn't it fair by using your logic to say a person who prays salah is a momin but a person who rejects salah is Muslim??

When I say reject salah I mean totally reject it like we SUNNIS reject Imamate totally in every kind of way.

A person who does not pray salah out of some lame excuseis a Muslim BUT a person who totally rejects salah is a kafir, right?? And we SUNNIS reject the concept of Infalliables coming after prophey(pbuh) which is usul ad din.

Why different rules for one and a different rule for another??

Edited by Just the truth

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