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StrugglingForTheLight

Verse 4:59 - Ulil Amr.

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The word "god" has two meanings in every language. It has a meaning that which is worshipped, and that what is worthy of worship.

 

"Authority" "Leader" likewise, has two different meanings. For example, the Quran state the unjust would not be made leaders. At other times, it talks about God making leaders who call to the fire like the Pharaoh. 

 

In a sense, Pharaoh was an authority, in the sense he was obeyed and followed and taken as authority. In the same way Jesus is a god, in the sense people take him as a god. In another sense, Pharaoh was not an authority or leader, in the same Jesus is not a god.

 

When we come across the verse 4:59, we obviously have to ask, in what sense of authority is the verse intending.

 

If it's intending all those have authority in the sense, people take them as authorities, then you will have many authorities. For example, if you were a transformer, both Optimus Prime and Megatron would be authorities, and per this verse you must obey them both.

 

In this sense, both Mauwiya and Ali ibn Abi Talib would be authorities and leaders even while fighting each other. Obviously you cannot obey both of them.

 

Now if it means in the sense of ought to be followed, ought to be obeyed, having true authority over you....what is the criteria of such authority?

 

A person maybe a good just and wise, but how would the people know that?  

 

If God appoints a leader, obviously, such authority would stem from God's authority.

 

In absence of such a leader, I would think, that no person can have authority, but instead government should be formed to implement the will of the masses, and not make the masses subject to the will of a leader.

 

In this sense, government shouldn't have authority but should be seen as a job in implementing the will of the masses. 

 

In light of this logic, isn't it suggestive that then the Ulil-Amr if this verse is truly revealed by God, are divinely appointed authorities in the same way as Prophets?

 

 

 

 

 

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In light of this logic, isn't it suggestive that then the Ulil-Amr if this verse is truly revealed by God, are divinely appointed authorities in the same way as Prophets?

Yes, this is what the Imāmī (Shi'i) Branch or School of Thought believe. Ahlul-Sunnah disagree with us on this point and this is the major issue that separates the two biggest groups of Muslims.

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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Well not all Shias. There are those who have given the Faqih (Wilayatal Faqih) the same authority with regards to political and social affairs, as the Prophets and Imams.

They are all still of the opinion that the Ahlul Bayt [as] are the holders of divine authority. That's what is agreed upon.

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True, but it would invalidate the logic that Ulil-Amr must be divinely appointed and disagree with the reasoning I showed.

Hmm, not exactly. I do see your point though.

You said: "In absence of such a leader, I would think, that no person can have authority, but instead government should be formed to implement the will of the masses, and not make the masses subject to the will of a leader."

I and I think most would agree (or at least to some extent). No one can have this authority (Imamah - divine authority) in the absense of such an individual, an Imām in this case, but if the people have the ability to form a government they can if they feel its in the best interest of the Ummah.

What do you think of that?

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"When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By "authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic62  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other."

http://rkhomeini.org.temporaryurl.net/eBook/dispContents.cfm?book_id=76&start_page=45

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"When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By "authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic62  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other."

http://rkhomeini.org.temporaryurl.net/eBook/dispContents.cfm?book_id=76&start_page=45

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"When we say that after the Occultation, the just faqih has the same authority that the Most Noble Messenger and the Imams (‘a) had, do not imagine that the status of the faqih is identical to that of the Imams and the Prophet(‘a). For here we are not speaking of status, but rather of function. By "authority” we mean government, the administration of the country, and the implementation of the sacred laws of the shari‘ah. These constitute a serious, difficult duty but do not earn anyone extraordinary status or raise him above the level of common humanity. In other words, authority here has the meaning of government, administration, and execution of law; contrary to what many people believe, it is not a privilege, but a grave responsibility. The governance of the faqih is a rational and extrinsic62  matter; it exists only as a type of appointment, like the appointment of a guardian for a minor. With respect to duty and position, there is indeed no difference between the guardian of a nation and the guardian of a minor. It is as if the Imam were to appoint someone to the guardianship of a minor, to the governorship of a province, or to some other post. In cases like these, it is not reasonable that there would be a difference between the Prophet and the Imams (‘a), on the one hand, and the just faqih, on the other."

http://rkhomeini.org.temporaryurl.net/eBook/dispContents.cfm?book_id=76&start_page=45

 

[4:43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Well not all Shias. There are those who have given the Faqih (Wilayatal Faqih) the same authority with regards to political and social affairs, as the Prophets and Imams.

This is misunderstood. They believe that the Faqih has that authority after doing ijtehad to ascertain what the infallible would have done. If that faqih makes a clear mistake then they are not to be obeyed.

 

Authority/administration is like a vacuum, if you don't fill it, something else will. These shia who get upset by WF mutlaq should know that by removing authority from the pious they are giving it to the impious. 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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[4:43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

This is misunderstood. They believe that the Faqih has that authority after doing ijtehad to ascertain what the infallible would have done. If that faqih makes a clear mistake then they are not to be obeyed.

 

Authority/administration is like a vacuum, if you don't fill it, something else will. These shia who get upset by WF mutlaq should know that by removing authority from the pious they are giving it to the impious. 

 

Well you can give power to the people.  There is no democratic society in the world. There are republics but no democracies.

 

A democracy in reality doesn't give authority to government, government is just a job where those people have to implement the will of the masses. A republic on the other hand,  has people in authority, but chosen by the people to lead them. The people in authority don't seek to implement the will of the masses, but rather, gain the trust of the masses and think and rule for them.

 

I don't believe in a republic. The state of tricking people is to the degree, that people believe they are a democracy when in fact, they are a republic.

 

With republics, I feel a few people are able to manipulate the masses. With a democracy, I feel the authority is widespread, and will become more grassroots.

 

Of course, a democracy will be a total disaster without knowledge and wisdom being widespread in the masses.

 

As for government being a social contract, I don't ever remember being able to decide whether I want to sign or not, on a republic contract.

 

Anyways, long story short: you don't have to fill the vacuum with authorities, you can give to the people and make a true democracy.

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Well you can give power to the people.  There is no democratic society in the world. There are republics but no democracies.

 

A democracy in reality doesn't give authority to government, government is just a job where those people have to implement the will of the masses. A republic on the other hand,  has people in authority, but chosen by the people to lead them. The people in authority don't seek to implement the will of the masses, but rather, gain the trust of the masses and think and rule for them.

 

I don't believe in a republic. The state of tricking people is to the degree, that people believe they are a democracy when in fact, they are a republic.

 

With republics, I feel a few people are able to manipulate the masses. With a democracy, I feel the authority is widespread, and will become more grassroots.

 

Of course, a democracy will be a total disaster without knowledge and wisdom being widespread in the masses.

 

As for government being a social contract, I don't ever remember being able to decide whether I want to sign or not, on a republic contract.

 

Anyways, long story short: you don't have to fill the vacuum with authorities, you can give to the people and make a true democracy.

 

Democracy is no where in the Quran, to appoint an Imam (guide) for the people.

And Imam Must be chosen By Allah, appointed by the prophet (s). Your bringing 

Wilayat al faqih with another thing that is totally different. Wilayat al FAqih is not Obligatory,

And nor is it wanted in Islam. Its just a state where you have a governmental rulers who rules under the Islamic

law which the masses (society) agree upon, therefore letting him be in sucha position. Sayed Ali Al Khamenei (qas)

Him self as a Muslim believes in Divine Authority (the 12th Imam). You my dear friend, An Imam (guide, Uli Al Amr) is another,

and Wilayat al Faqih is another.   

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Democracy is no where in the Quran, to appoint an Imam (guide) for the people.

And Imam Must be chosen By Allah, appointed by the prophet (s). Your bringing

Wilayat al faqih with another thing that is totally different. Wilayat al FAqih is not Obligatory,

And nor is it wanted in Islam. Its just a state where you have a governmental rulers who rules under the Islamic

law which the masses (society) agree upon, therefore letting him be in sucha position. Sayed Ali Al Khamenei (qas)

Him self as a Muslim believes in Divine Authority (the 12th Imam). You my dear friend, An Imam (guide, Uli Al Amr) is another,

and Wilayat al Faqih is another.

USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah (swt) talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah (swt) tells us he (swt) one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah (swt) does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah (swt) talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah (swt) talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

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USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tells us he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

Your making the same Questions On the same thread before on "Appointing a Successor", please Review our argument.

No need to spam the chat.

 

Salam   

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USUL AD DIN

Surah 3:7 talks about how we know what is and what isn't the foundation or usul ad din of islam.

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

The two words PRECISE and FOUNDATION are the criteria to prove if something is or isn't usul ad din.

Firstly we look at tawhid and how PRECISE Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about tawhid

1. Tawhid.

“That is Allah your LORD There is NO GOD but He, the Creator of all things. Then WORSHIP Him, and He has power to dispose of all affairs” [Al-An’am 6:102]

So in the above verse we see how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì tells us he ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì one and we should worship him alone.

Now that is very PRECISE because we are told two things CLEARLY.

1. He is one

2. Nobody else should be worshipped.

2. Adalah (justice)

Surah 4:40

Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

Now in the above verse we are told PRECISELY that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì does not do injustice to the weight of an atom. No Muslim can now after reading this play with this verse and say anything different because it is PRECISE.

3. Nubbuwah (prophethood)

2:136

to top

Sahih International

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

2:137

to top

Sahih International

So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

So here we are told PRECISELY that we have to believe in nubuwwah

4. Yawm al qiyamah (judgement day)

Sahih International

And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].

Here we have a one of many PRECISE verses where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about yawm al qiyamah

5. Imamah?????????

Where is the PRECISE verse where Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì talks about imams to come out after prophet (pbuh)

Food for thought.

If there was a PRECISE verse in the quran regarding imams then don't you think that shia scholars would shout it from the rooftops that sunni ate kafir for refusing to believe in an usul ad din??

Yet what we have is shia scholars calling SUNNIS Muslims because they cannot point out a PRECISE verse from the quran pointing towards imams, a PRECISE verse like the one that is found in other usul ad dins and even furu ad dins.

If I reject any of the first 4 usul ad dins takes me straight outside the folds of islam no doubt, but when it comes to imamah the shia still call us Muslims, why??

I mean like come on, seriously an usul ad din is an usul ad din it's that simple. So rejecting ANY usul ad din is bye bye to eeman, but shia still call sunni Muslims even though we reject imamat which us usul ad din.

We have lots of Shias who do everything that is against what the imams taught us while we have lots of Sunnis who love and respect and follow the imams. Then how can we call all Sunnis as non Muslims? For us, Intention matters and not just words from the mouth.

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Your making the same Questions On the same thread before on "Appointing a Successor", please Review our argument.

No need to spam the chat.

Salam

My brother if you answered with an answer that actually made sense I wouldn't need to ask this question on different threads.

We have lots of Shias who do everything that is against what the imams taught us while we have lots of Sunnis who love and respect and follow the imams. Then how can we call all Sunnis as non Muslims? For us, Intention matters and not just words from the mouth.

My dear brother your answer makes no sense whatsoever because;

Lets say there was somebody who respected and loved the prophet (pbuh) and listened to everything he said yet he refused to believe in his prophethood which is usul ad din ( foundation). Is he a Muslim???? Of course not.

Similarly even if SUNNIS respect the imams we still refused to believe that he is appointed by Allah (swt) which is usul ad din (foundation). How can we SUNNIS remain Muslims by rejecting an usul ad din??

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