Tale Of A Wife Who Is Not Anymore -Shiagenocide

[Waiting for HIM]

This is the tale of a Pakistani mother and a wife who is neither a mother nor a wife anymore due to the Takfiris terrorist attack on a mosque in a systematic genocide committed by the blessing of the Pakistani state.

This is a story of ONE Shia pakistani woman out of 50,000, whose husbands, fathers, and sons have been ripped into lifeless human body remains as suicide bombings have become the favorite mode of keeping Shia population of Pakistan in check and under subjugation.

http://en.shiapost.com/2013/08/18/my-sacrifice-to-god-by-midhat-zaidi/

P.S. This article did deserve a separate space in SC but so far, I'll have to put it in ''General Politics and Current Issues".... Topic like this deserves a new topic called "Shia Genocide in Pakistan".

Edited August 18, 2013 by Waiting for HIM

[kadhim]

You guys have to find a better word than genocide. Shia are not a genos, not a race, so by definition it's a misuse of terms. I know you're looking for something powerful and memorable in terms of language, but people ultimately turn against you if you deliberately choose the wrong words. Rightly or wrongly, they conclude "if they're exaggerating with the words, what else are they exaggerating?" Which you obviously don't want at all.

I'm not sure what you use as an alternative. Targeted sectarian killings?

Edited August 18, 2013 by kadhim

[Waiting for HIM]

You guys have to find a better word than genocide. Shia are not a genos, not a race, so by definition it's a misuse of terms. I know you're looking for something powerful and memorable in terms of language, but people ultimately turn against you if you deliberately choose the wrong words. Rightly or wrongly, they conclude "if they're exaggerating with the words, what else are they exaggerating?" Which you obviously don't want at all.

Please don' downplay the blood of Shias spilled in Pakistan. Correct your definition, better delete your slightly ignorant post from this thread.

Shia Genocide in Pakistan is not an exaggeration:

Suicide bombing, killers let loose, whole prison gates opened under army protection for hundreds of arrested killers to let go, marked Shia kids in medical and law schools of Pakistan and their head price announced, open threats and day and time of execution announced for Shia professionals and those who run businesses or head instituons, particularly killings of Shia doctors, Shia lawyers, Shia in army, Shia teachers, Shia businessmen... This is called GENOCIDE.

This is how UN defines genocide (following words are from UN charter)

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(1)Killing members of the group;

(2) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(3) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(4) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(5) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Waiting for HIM

[kadhim]

Part of the skill set of political advocacy is the ability to intelligently and unemotionally accept constructive criticism. If you're not capable of that, may I suggest leaving the task to those who are.

[Waiting for HIM]

Part of the skill set of political advocacy is the ability to intelligently and unemotionally accept constructive criticism. If you're not capable of that, may I suggest leaving the task to those who are.

That's why I didn't yell at you, just logically showed you what constitutes Genocide in UN charter and how Pakistani Shia sufferings qualify to be defined as a genocide.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Waiting for HIM

[kadhim]

That's why I didn't yell at you, just logically showed you what constitutes Genocide in UN charter and how Pakistani Shia sufferings qualify to be defined as a genocide.

That's your interpretation of the wording though. You're seizing on the words "or in part" to argue that the targeting of any fraction of a religious group constitutes a genocide. You can't, unfortunately, do this. There is a whole legal discussion about this point. But it's likely that legal experts would not consider 50 000 (I'll give the benefit of the doubt to you on the figure) out of 30 odd million (20 odd percent of 175 million) to qualify, especially without clear, indisputable state sponsorship.

I'm sorry if that sounds cold and detached to you, but that's legal reality.

Do you guys have any reputable international lawyers lined up to support this choice of words?

Edited August 18, 2013 by kadhim

[Guest]

bro khadim, please suggest a good alternate.

Targeted Sectarian killings isnt one i believe.

I can guess that u dont have family or some other direct connection with Pakistan so you are not fully aware of the gravity of the situation. Shias are getting killed here daily and by dozens... Like the op said the educated ones are the prime target but they are not sparing the poor and illetrate ones either... In the northern areas they force passengers out of the buses,read the names on their ID cards and shoot the shias rightaway...what would u call it???

U want to wait for the death toll to cross a certain figure(s).. 6figures?? just for the sake of ''legally correct terminology??''

[kadhim]

My family heritage is irrelevant to the question of whether you're using words correctly. It's on the news every day, I'm not unaware of the reality. But genocide is a serious legal term, and it's not up to individuals to throw it around without proper consideration that it's appropriate. Words have meanings, and it's important to respect that. The basis for communication is that people can understand what the other is talking about. Law particularly depends on this. Look at fiqh for example. We don't approve of laymen arbitrarily defining the terms as they feel like, do we?

I again raise the question as to whether anyone has bothered to get a supporting legal opinion from a respected expert in international law. If you have such an opinion, I will be silent.

[Robin Hood]

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust, and due in large part to Lemkin’s efforts, the United Nations approved theConvention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It says: 

 

• genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: 
  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

Source: http://efchr.mcgill.ca/WhatIsGenocide_en.php?menu=2

[kadhim]

You're basically just reposting, word for word, what someone already posted. What do you think that is adding?

[Brained]

This is how UN defines genocide (following words are from UN charter)

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(1)Killing members of the group;

(2) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(3) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(4) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(5) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

"acts committed with the intent" I hope it can be proven in the case of Pakistan, to a reasonable degree, that Deobandis/takfiris do aim to make Pakistan a religiously homogeneous nation, as betrayed by their work not only against Shias but also to a degree against other religious minorities such as Hindus and also Barelvis. They work by employing both peaceful (preaching/tableegh) and non-peaceful (harassing communities out of neighborhoods/killing) methods to that effect. It is the non-peaceful acts, of which we're prime victims, that we're talking of when we say ShiaGenocide.

 

 We don't intend to take it to the UN, yet. We do live in fear, but we're not toothless. It is used to garner the sympathy we deserve and to unite the people( both Shia and Sunni) against the killers. Nobody gives a damn about what its legal definition entails as long as it helps paint a realistic picture of what is going on.

[Waiting for HIM]

You're basically just reposting, word for word, what someone already posted. What do you think that is adding?

 

Bro kadhim, throw away your ego.

 

Yes there are lawyers on board in USA who are working to get this genocide declare a genocide.

[kadhim]

Bro kadhim, throw away your ego.

 

Yes there are lawyers on board in USA who are working to get this genocide declare a genocide.

 

What does my "ego" have to do with anything?

 

You didn't answer my question, by the way. I didn't ask you if there were "lawyers on board." I would hope that would be a given if you're trying to organize. I asked if you had international law specialists that agreed that it met the standard of genocide. Yes or no question. You don't have to be so evasive and defensive.

Edited August 18, 2013 by kadhim

[Guest]

bro kadhim, the reason i mentioned your family heritage is that things are not being reported in the news accurately, there is a lot more going on than actually reported. Only if u have family in pakistan or are living there yourself , u realize how bad things are....

Dont see any reason for u to get so worked up over this.... but if u dont believe in standing up for followers of Ahle Bayt, then thats another thing

[Asr]

You're basically just reposting, word for word, what someone already posted. What do you think that is adding?

So... do you disagree with the UN charter that recognises religious killings as genocide?

[kadhim]

So... do you disagree with the UN charter that recognises religious killings as genocide?

 

First of all, my main objection to that post is that it was a verbatim repost of something already posted half a dozen posts above.

Second, the UN charter does not consider any and all religious killings as "genocide." Genocide is an attempt to wipe or destroy a whole group, in entirety or "in part." What "in part" means is debated in the legal circles, but usually refers to systematic mass exterminations of large proportions of the population, such as the Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc.

[Guest]

www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

Above is the INTERNATIONAL LEGAL DEFINITION of genocide

FROM THE ABOVE SITE: The phrase "in whole or in part" is

important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of

only part of a group (such as its educated

members, or members living in one

region) is also genocide. Most authorities

require intent to destroy a substantial

number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be

guilty of genocide even if he kills only one

person, so long as he knew he was

participating in a larger plan to destroy

the group.

Bro khadim: Posting from handheld so not able to highlight the imp part: EVEN IF HE KILLS ONLY ONE PERSON

hope this settles the matter

[Waiting for HIM]

Bro kadhim, you have acted like Abu Musa Ashari. You have blunted the message of this thread by your egoistic rant on definition of genocide. I was for one not expecting this from a 34 yrs old.

Shia Genocide in Pakistan is a serious issue near and dear to those who are suffering immensely at the hands of Takfiris. You should visit this website http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/ to read more about the Shia victims of genocide in Pakistan. This one names the name of those kown victims whose families are suffering immensely due to their bread earners killed for being Shia. For every Shia man killed, a family of five or six has become living dead by way of destitution, poverty, and lack of resources.

Just yesterday a train in Pakistan enroute to Iran (carrying obviously many Shia who travel to Mashad) was rocketed and forcefully stopped. Before they could get the Shia men out for summary executions (this has happened with buses carrying the Shia passengers in Pakistan multiple times), some men appeared and shot on the band of Takfiris. Pakistani state (police and army) as usual was missing. People are suspecting these were Iranian border guards who had intruded in Pakistan in civilian clothes to prevent another Shia massacre on the large scale.

[edited: no need for such attacks]

If Bali, South Sudan, Eritrea can fake Genocide and you accept it because western media and western institutions say so, why can't a real Genocide perpetrated in Pakistan can't be called so. Like I said in another thread, nobody cares what Western institutions say, at least we Shias should know that this genocide is happening and accept it, and try to prevent it.

Edited August 20, 2013 by inshaAllah

[kadhim]

www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

Above is the INTERNATIONAL LEGAL DEFINITION of genocide

FROM THE ABOVE SITE: The phrase "in whole or in part" is

important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of

only part of a group (such as its educated

members, or members living in one

region) is also genocide. Most authorities

require intent to destroy a substantial

number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be

guilty of genocide even if he kills only one

person, so long as he knew he was

participating in a larger plan to destroy

the group.

Bro khadim: Posting from handheld so not able to highlight the imp part: EVEN IF HE KILLS ONLY ONE PERSON

hope this settles the matter

 

Salams,

 

You really need to read what I am saying with reason alone and without the blinds of emotionality. We're on the same "side" here in terms of revulsion with the violence and desire to end it. The question is the course of action that will be successful. The question is what you want to accomplish. Are you just looking to raise awareness, get people's attention to read more about this? In this the strong language may be successful, even if the language is stronger than what can be supported to the legal standard.

 

But if you're looking to try ultimately to get some sort of official legal sanctions against the Pakistani government, that's another question. I have doubt that these crimes, vicious as they are, will meet the legal standard. So I'm trying to suggest putting in some effort up front to try to get some expert opinions of support and such before a whole lot of effort and resources are spent that could be possibly better spent elsewhere. Seek out the opinion of a lawyer or lawyers with expertise in international law. Because you might understand something from reading a text by yourself, but you're not an expert and are not versed in the relevant case law.

 

RE: the point you wanted to highlight above, yes, an individual can be prosecuted for participation in a recognized genocide, even if he himself only kills one person, but that is only if the overall project is recognized as genocide. That has to be established first.

 

Anyway, I offer some sincere advice. Hopefully people can get over their own egos and take the criticism constructively.

Bro kadhim, you have acted like Abu Musa Ashari. You have blunted the message of this thread by your egoistic rant on definition of genocide. I was for one not expecting this from a 34 yrs old.

Shia Genocide in Pakistan is a serious issue near and dear to those who are suffering immensely at the hands of Takfiris. You should visit this website http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/ to read more about the Shia victims of genocide in Pakistan. This one names the name of those kown victims whose families are suffering immensely due to their bread earners killed for being Shia. For every Shia man killed, a family of five or six has become living dead by way of destitution, poverty, and lack of resources.

Just yesterday a train in Pakistan enroute to Iran (carrying obviously many Shia who travel to Mashad) was rocketed and forcefully stopped. Before they could get the Shia men out for summary executions (this has happened with buses carrying the Shia passengers in Pakistan multiple times), some men appeared and shot on the band of Takfiris. Pakistani state (police and army) as usual was missing. People are suspecting these were Iranian border guards who had intruded in Pakistan in civilian clothes to prevent another Shia massacre on the large scale.

Let me say this with a heavy heart:

Shame on blind folded so called Shia on SC. Shame on ego meniacs. Shame on self conceited eyebrow raisers. Shame on armchair generals of SC. Shame on dumb pretenders. Shame on bystanders of massacres. Shame on those whose morning start and they don't feel a concern for Ummah. Shame on summun, bukmun, ummun... Shame on all those who rather than helping (even a word of sympathy or concern counts as helping) point fingers at the little efforts being done for the Shia victim of violence in Pakistan.

If Bali, South Sudan, Eritrea can fake Genocide and you accept it because western media and western institutions say so, why can't a real Genocide perpetrated in Pakistan can't be called so. Like I said in another thread, nobody cares what Western institutions say, at least we Shias should know that this genocide is happening and accept it, and try to prevent it.

 

Salaama. Salaaama.

 

Listen, I'm not going to engage with your ego-driven personal slander. It's counterproductive.

 

I will just repeat what I said to startlight. Figure out what you want to accomplish. If you just want to raise awareness, maybe being precise and correct with language doesn't matter. If you actually are interested in starting a movement for international legal sanction against the Paki government, then I recommend getting the help of a qualified, reputable lawyer with international law expertise to ensure your efforts are as effective as possible, legally speaking. You are accountable to God for your efforts and what you accomplish with the limited resources you have available.

[Asr]

Do we care about legal nuances? We dont need legal minions fighting over definitions to tell us what we know already. It doesnt make a difference in reality.

Talk about a storm in a bloody tea cup.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Asr

[Logic]

http://en.shiapost.com/2013/08/18/my-sacrifice-to-god-by-midhat-zaidi/

 

This is a story of ONE Shia pakistani woman out of 50,000, whose husbands, fathers, and sons have been ripped into lifeless human body remains as suicide bombings have become the favorite mode of keeping Shia population of Pakistan in check and under subjugation.

 

 

Heart breaking story...Thanks for sharing

[Robin Hood]

Aren't we witnessing in Pakistan attacks by Sunni extremists who'se aim is to eliminate Shias?