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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why I Am Not A Muslim Or A Shia

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The reason I am not a Muslim or a Shia is because I can't find any evidence for the claim six centuries later that Jesus didn't go to the cross to overturn the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings in the first century sources.

 

Would God ask you to overlook the evidence and believe what Muhammad said?

 

As well, I know that I was a sinner and sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell an eternal separation from God. And that no man by his own strength or works can bridge the gap between and infinitely great God and himself. Therefore, it stands to reason, God must intervene by entering into His creation to atone for the sins of the world that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Not only, therefore, have I been forgiven for all sins I have ever committed, but God also brings me to the cross with Jesus to die to my old man. God doesn't go after the root of sin or place us into asceticism by depraving the body, but goes after our old man so that Satan can't work in Christians for that which has died is dead.

 

Biblically "dead" refers to lost communication. My spirit has been quickened with God's life and is no longer dead.

 

 

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The reason I am not a Muslim or a Shia is because I can't find any evidence for the claim six centuries later that Jesus didn't go to the cross to overturn the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings in the first century sources.

 

Would God ask you to overlook the evidence and believe what Muhammad said?

 

As well, I know that I was a sinner and sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell an eternal separation from God. And that no man by his own strength or works can bridge the gap between and infinitely great God and himself. Therefore, it stands to reason, God must intervene by entering into His creation to atone for the sins of the world that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Not only, therefore, have I been forgiven for all sins I have ever committed, but God also brings me to the cross with Jesus to die to my old man. God doesn't go after the root of sin or place us into asceticism by depraving the body, but goes after our old man so that Satan can't work in Christians for that which has died is dead.

 

Biblically "dead" refers to lost communication. My spirit has been quickened with God's life and is no longer dead.

 

 

If I prove you wrong from the bible, 

and prove to you that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last messenger,

Will you accept?

And sorry, How does the cross, where jesus died, bring your closer to God?

Have you taken God as a human-like?

If jesus died for your sins, than in conclusion your able to do anything, even if such is evil?.

If god Must intervene (himself) as you claim, than that means your saying jesus is God? and if your saying jesus is god,

than who was jesus prostrating to when he was worshiping God? himself? you make no sense. In addition who said he died?

 

Luke 24:1, the women came to the tomb with medicine and found Jesus gone.  If he was already dead, they would have no reason to bring this to dead Jesus.  But Jesus was alive and was receiving medical treatment.

 

2- Also, notice in John 20:15, Mary Magdalene thought Jesus was a gardener, after he healed and rose back up.

 

3- And in John 20:17, Jesus was still in pain, he told Mary Magdalene "touch me not!".

 

4- And in John 20:19-29, Jesus showed his original body to the disciples, and they checked it.

 

 

Answer me please.

 

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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The reason I am not a Muslim or a Shia is because I can't find any evidence for the claim six centuries later that Jesus didn't go to the cross to overturn the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings in the first century sources.

 

Would God ask you to overlook the evidence and believe what Muhammad said?

 

As well, I know that I was a sinner and sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell an eternal separation from God. And that no man by his own strength or works can bridge the gap between and infinitely great God and himself. Therefore, it stands to reason, God must intervene by entering into His creation to atone for the sins of the world that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Not only, therefore, have I been forgiven for all sins I have ever committed, but God also brings me to the cross with Jesus to die to my old man. God doesn't go after the root of sin or place us into asceticism by depraving the body, but goes after our old man so that Satan can't work in Christians for that which has died is dead.

 

Biblically "dead" refers to lost communication. My spirit has been quickened with God's life and is no longer dead.

 

So God is not able to forgive our sins except if He dies for them? (In addition to the fact that saying God dies is ridiculous).

Also, we believe God's Mercy saves us, but if we commit sin, since God is just, we may have to face His punishment.

It will be unfair for someone to go to paradise regardless of the sins s/he commits.

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http://www.shareglob...ThruOurEyes.pdf    

 

Here is a book I recommend you to read about Jesus (Prophet Isa) Peace be upon him. I think Abu Hadi covered both sides of the (Muslim and Christian viewpoint's), and you should give it a read. It may bring about some reflection on your part. Even if you don't agree with looking into more information; you gave your opinion, and I can respect that, but I suggest you be more open to former-Christian's who have combed both sides. You may have done some research; I cant validate that, since this is your first post.   

 

Hope this book helps, Insha'Allah khair.

 

I am a former Catholic, and (now) Alhamdulillah, a proud Shia Muslim! :D

 

(wasalam)  AB313

Edited by AhlulBayt_313
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http://www.shareglob...ThruOurEyes.pdf    

 

Here is a book I recommend you to read about Jesus (Prophet Isa) Peace be upon him. I think Abu Hadi covered both sides of the (Muslim and Christian viewpoint's), and you should give it a read. It may bring about some reflection on your part. Even if you don't agree with looking into more information; you gave your opinion, and I can respect that, but I suggest you be more open to former-Christian's who have combed both sides. You may have done some research; I cant validate that, since this is your first post.   

 

Hope this book helps, Insha'Allah khair.

 

I am a former Catholic, and (now) Alhamdulillah, a proud Shia Muslim! :D

 

(wasalam)  AB313

I think they tried to preach, but failed....*facePalm* 

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I think they tried to preach, but failed....*facePalm* 

 

Well, they can preach all they want, but the Truth is obtainable. Nevertheless, not all people use logic and reasoning; and thus, they wont understand either way.

 

We as Muslim's shouldn't use discouragement though, we should propagate Islam every chance we get. Even if that [said] person and/or group doesn't wish to seek more knowledge, Allah (S.W.T) will see we tried to serve Him, Insha'Allah khair.

 

رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): قالَ اللّه‏ُ عَزَّوجلَّ: أحَبُّ ما تَعَبَّدَ لي بهِ عَبدي، النُّصحُ لي

Prophet Muhammad (SAWA) said: ‘Allah Almighty said: "The most beloved way that My servant can use to worship Me is through advising [others] for My sake." Alhamdulillah!

 

(wasalam)  AB313

Edited by AhlulBayt_313
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Well, they can preach all they want, but the Truth is obtainable. Nevertheless, not all people use logic and reasoning; and thus, they wont understand either way.

 

We as Muslim's shouldn't use discouragement though, we should propagate Islam every chance we get. Even if that [said] person and/or group doesn't wish to seek more knowledge, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì will see we tried to serve Him, Insha'Allah khair.

 

رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): قالَ اللّه‏ُ عَزَّوجلَّ: أحَبُّ ما تَعَبَّدَ لي بهِ عَبدي، النُّصحُ لي

Prophet Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said: ‘Allah Almighty said: "The most beloved way that My servant can use to worship Me is through advising [others] for My sake." Alhamdulillah!

 

(wasalam)  AB313

 

Agreed. Thank you for the Advice!

 

May Allah reward you inshalla =)

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Hi Faithful,

 

Welcome to our interfaith forum. --- We don’t want you to be discouraged by some negative remarks. --- The Quran says, “There is no compulsion in religion.”

It is hard to get Muslims to talk about their personal faith and assurance of salvation.

--- And in turn, they don’t want us to talk against Muhammad or the Quran.

 

However, I will comment on one line you wrote, and it is this from Post 1:

Quote: Would God ask you to overlook the evidence and believe what Muhammad said?

 

Actually Muhammad was complimentary to Christians, and the Quran gives the truth of the Gospel quite plainly in these verses in Surah 3:

42 . Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations.

45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

 

This outlines the Virgin Birth, the wisdom of Jesus, His ministry of healing and miracles, and the introduction of new laws in the NT (Mainly the reinstating of the law of love, --- To Love God, and love your neighbor, as well as some changes in dietary laws.)

Jesus said, He was the Sign from God, then He said ‘fear God,’ or ‘do your duty to God’ and ‘obey Me’ (or “follow Me” which means trusting Jesus and following His teaching). --- Then it says, worshiping God and following Jesus is ‘the Way that is straight.’

 

I think this will indicate that the Quran needs to be read to know what it says, --- the same as the Bible needs to be read by others so as not to distort what it says..

 

Feel free to ask questions. --- As a Christian I have read the Quran and find many parallels which are positive. --- However, I try to use verses from both the Bible and Quran to clarify some of what is said.

Blessings.

 

Placid

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Hi Habib,

 

More accurately a child bears the DNA of their parents, do they not? --- While children are born innocent and are not held accountable for sin, until the age of 'accountability,' they are by natural birth of their parents, 

 

Are there any verses in the Quran that say children are pure when they are born and then learn to be evil from their parents and teachers?  Or does human nature repeat itself in the children?

Edited by placid
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45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Placid

 

FIXED*

Yes I know, it is from YusufAli, a sunni translator...He is wrong.

Hi Habib,

 

More accurately a child bears the DNA of their parents, do they not? --- While children are born innocent and are not held accountable for sin, until the age of 'accountability,' they are by natural birth of their parents, 

 

Are there any verses in the Quran that say children are pure when they are born and then learn to be evil from their parents and teachers?  Or does human nature repeat itself in the children?

 

Born Sinless: Islam teaches that every human being is born sinless; no child carries the burden of his or her ancestors' sins. God says, "No carrier shall carry the burden of others." (Qur'an; chp. 35, verse 18). Each human being is born with a pure conscience which can absorb and accept the true message of God. It is only the social and familial influences which take a person away from God's message.

 

Accountability: Islam also emphasizes on the issue of responsibility and accountability of human beings--each person is responsible for his or her own actions. Although Islam teaches that God has predetermined the span of our life and the time of our death, it does not mean that even our actions are predetermined by Him. We surely are free in our actions and are, therefore, accountable for them. God only provides guidance for us to know what is good and what is bad. He says, "We created man of a water-drop...Surely We guided him to the right way--now whether he (follows it and) be grateful or (goes astray and) be ungrateful is up to him." (Qur'an: chp. 76, verse 3).

 

http://www.al-islam.org/begin/intro/rizvi.html

Edited by PureEthics
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Hi Ethics,

 

Quote from Post 13

45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

 

--- You stroked through the word Christ, and made this comment:

“Yes I know, it is from YusufAli, a sunni translator...He is wrong.”

 

Some translators use Christ Jesus, others use, ‘the Messiah Jesus,’ ---as Messiah means Christ. --- So I suppose each mention of Christ the Messiah would get the same response.

It is interesting that you have such a dislike for anything Sunni, yet you are a supporter of the Quran that came from Mr Uthman and other Sunni advisors, and you say that it is perfect.

However, --- You can take the liberty of crossing out a word, or title that you don’t like. --- Was it from Yusuf Ali that you didn’t like it, or was it that Jesus is called Christ, the Messiah? --- At any rate, are you qualified to say that something is ‘wrong’ in the Quran?

 

I have a deeper question for you. --- (This is under 'Ali’s Quran' on the internet)

--- (The Quran compiled by Ali):

Quote: There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shia, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, Ali (AS), possessed a

special transcript of the text of Quran which he had collected himself, and

he was THE FIRST who compiled Quran.

--- After he compiled this transcript, Imam Ali (AS) took it and presented it

to the rulers who came after the Holy Prophet, and said: "Here is the book

of Allah, your Lord, in the order that was revealed to your Prophet."

but they did not accept it and replied: "We have no need of this. We have

with us what you possess." Thereupon, Imam Ali (AS) took the transcript

back and informed them that they will never see it again.

 

--- (From the compiling of Ali’s Quran):

Quote: As you know the Chapter al-Alaq is not at the beginning of the present

Quran. Also Muslims agree that the verse (5:3) was among one of the

last revealed verses of Quran (but not the very last one), yet it is not

toward the end of the present Quran. This clearly proves that although

the Quran that we have available is complete, it is not in the order

that has been revealed. These few misplacements were done by some

companions on purpose at worst, or out of ignorance at least.--- End of quote.

 

--- Also, In the intro to Surah 5, Mr Pickthall suggests that verse 3 was part of Muhammad’s address at his ‘Farewell Pilgrimage’ in year 10, when he declared that his Mission was finished of removing idolatry, and restoring Faith in One God.

--- Others suggest that verses 4-5 are of the same time,

It is obvious that the victory over idolatry could not be declared some years before it happened, so it would have been part of Muhammad’s final message, would it not? --- (The final revelation might have been 110, ‘Succour.’)

 

Would you say that the present Quran is right, --- where this profound victory statement is part of a verse in Surah 5:

3 This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.

 

--- Or should it have been in the order that Ali’s Quran had it, near the end, in a revelation in year 10?

 

Placid

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FIXED*

Yes I know, it is from YusufAli, a sunni translator...He is wrong.

Dude... Do you deny Jesus Christ [a] was the Messiah?

I suggest you read the Qur'an before you answer that to avoid possibly exiting Islam.

Hi Ethics,

 

Quote from Post 13

45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

 

--- You stroked through the word Christ, and made this comment:

“Yes I know, it is from YusufAli, a sunni translator...He is wrong.”

 

Some translators use Christ Jesus, others use, ‘the Messiah Jesus,’ ---as Messiah means Christ. --- So I suppose each mention of Christ the Messiah would get the same response.

It is interesting that you have such a dislike for anything Sunni, yet you are a supporter of the Quran that came from Mr Uthman and other Sunni advisors, and you say that it is perfect.

However, --- You can take the liberty of crossing out a word, or title that you don’t like. --- Was it from Yusuf Ali that you didn’t like it, or was it that Jesus is called Christ, the Messiah? --- At any rate, are you qualified to say that something is ‘wrong’ in the Quran?

 

I have a deeper question for you. --- (This is under 'Ali’s Quran' on the internet)

--- (The Quran compiled by Ali):

Quote: There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shia, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, Ali (AS), possessed a

special transcript of the text of Quran which he had collected himself, and

he was THE FIRST who compiled Quran.

--- After he compiled this transcript, Imam Ali (AS) took it and presented it

to the rulers who came after the Holy Prophet, and said: "Here is the book

of Allah, your Lord, in the order that was revealed to your Prophet."

but they did not accept it and replied: "We have no need of this. We have

with us what you possess." Thereupon, Imam Ali (AS) took the transcript

back and informed them that they will never see it again.

 

--- (From the compiling of Ali’s Quran):

Quote: As you know the Chapter al-Alaq is not at the beginning of the present

Quran. Also Muslims agree that the verse (5:3) was among one of the

last revealed verses of Quran (but not the very last one), yet it is not

toward the end of the present Quran. This clearly proves that although

the Quran that we have available is complete, it is not in the order

that has been revealed. These few misplacements were done by some

companions on purpose at worst, or out of ignorance at least.--- End of quote.

 

--- Also, In the intro to Surah 5, Mr Pickthall suggests that verse 3 was part of Muhammad’s address at his ‘Farewell Pilgrimage’ in year 10, when he declared that his Mission was finished of removing idolatry, and restoring Faith in One God.

--- Others suggest that verses 4-5 are of the same time,

It is obvious that the victory over idolatry could not be declared some years before it happened, so it would have been part of Muhammad’s final message, would it not? --- (The final revelation might have been 110, ‘Succour.’)

 

Would you say that the present Quran is right, --- where this profound victory statement is part of a verse in Surah 5:

3 This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.

 

--- Or should it have been in the order that Ali’s Quran had it, near the end, in a revelation in year 10?

 

Placid

Ignore him. His hatred for anything Sunni may get in the way.

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Are there any verses in the Quran that say children are pure when they are born and then learn to be evil from their parents and teachers?  Or does human nature repeat itself in the children?

The Qur'an is clear that no soul will bear the burden of another.

We have explicit Ahadith where the Prophet [sawa] himself states that all humans are born as a Muslim (submitting to Gods will) and then if their parents are not Muslim they grow to adopt the traditions of their parents.

"Why I Am Not A Muslim Or A Shia"

 

I thought Shia included in Muslim.. :(

Lol, only on ShiaChat :LOL:

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Why do you think imams were chosen by Allah? One of their main objectives in their existence is to keep the word of God protected, ie Quran. So, it doesnt matter who compiled it, because no matter what, the Imam A.S was there to make sure it was the way Allah intended it to be, perfect. As we know, Umar said if it wasnt for Ali I would have perished, we know his presence during the caliphs time. Imam Ali A.S was always the one they went to when things messed up and they knew, yet they took his right. Imam Ali did this for Islam, and Allah, nothing else.

 

The reason why I do not like the term "christ" given to Jesus A.S is because it is a pauleen term, it implies Jesus A.S died, which he never did. Of course I believe Jesus A.S is the Messiah, hence I have no objection to that term. LOL, I like what you did there, implying a translation is wrong simply means a translation is wrong, common sense brother. If I said Jesus A.S, was not a Messiah, then yes that would mean I think something is wrong in the quran, but im simply stating the term used in the translation is wrong.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

 

Okay, there are a few things I disagree with in that article, that I believe are untrue. One, the Quran is perfect the way it is, and it will always be. The caliphs didnt do anything to it, they couldnt, as I explained above. You have to understand that the quran is not a story book, it isnt referential, it isnt in order of events. The Quran compiled by Imam Ali had a tafsir that went along with it, and because he is chosen by Allah, this tafsir was divine interpretation, which can match no other tafsirs today. It was from the knowledge given by Muhammad A.S. I dont know why you brought up picktalls thoughts into this, but Imam Ali's ordering of the Quran and this present one we have today are the same, no doubt about it. All verses are in their correct place, as Allah intended it to be.

 

The Quran was PERFECT is PERFECT and always will be PERFECT.

Edited by PureEthics
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Hi Ali,

 

Quote from Post 17:

Quote: The Qur'an is clear that no soul will bear the burden of another.
 

Response: --- I can agree with that, and that is why Jesus did not have a human father. --- His Mother Mary was a ‘cradle’ for the One whom Gabriel said would be CALLED the Son of God. --- He had to be born with no sin so that He could be the ‘sin bearer’ for others. --- Had Jesus been of a sinful nature Himself, then He would not have been able to bear the sins of others.

 

Quote: We have explicit Ahadith where the Prophet [sawa] himself states that all humans are born as a Muslim (submitting to Gods will) and then if their parents are not Muslim they grow to adopt the traditions of their parents.

 

Response: --- If this hadith was from Muhammad, why is it not written in the Quran? --- I have never seen verses that say this in the Quran.

 

However, I am not critical of what you believe, but I am limited to what is written in the Bible and the Quran itself.

The question is, --- if children are born pure and born into a Muslim family that teaches them right conduct, then I suppose they would be safe, would they?

--- And children that are born pure in a Christian family and are raised to follow the Scriptures, are safe too, are they? --- Or not being born in a Muslim home puts them in danger, is that right?

 

The Scripture teaches that innocent children will not be punished for sin, --- but when they come to the age of ‘accountability,’ --- when they develop God consciousness, they are then responsible for their actions.

--- Let’s suppose that when the Scripture says, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” --- that it speaks of those who are over the age of accountability. --- So as Christians we say that each person has to make their personal decision to follow the Lord. --- And that each person is responsible for their own sin.

 

I suppose it would be possible for you to say, “Jesus was the exception. He started out pure and continued pure all of His life.” --- Would that be a fair assessment?

--- However, If he was only human, he would only be right in the sight of God Himself. --- So why was He CALLED the Christ, the Messiah, and the Redeemer?

--- I am not knocking what you believe, --- I would like you to explain further what the difference is in a child’s upbringing.

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I Hope that you know here we don't take any Ahadith from Ahlul-Sunnah, So you probably need to check on that.

Secoundly can you make your question a bit clearer, I was confused half way...

and peace be upon you.

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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Hi Dashing,

 

This statement comes up every now and again, but without giving the Scriptures you are referring to, it doesn't say anything definite, does it?. 

 

Can you elaborate on what you have learned?

Muhammad has been mentioned in the bible brother if we look at the Bible in the Book of Songs of Solomon chapter 5: 11-16

it talks about a certain person: 

 

11 His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are curled, and black as a raven.

 

12 His eyes are like doves beside the water-brooks; washed with milk, and fitly set.

 

13 His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as banks of sweet herbs; his lips are as lilies, dropping with flowing myrrh.

 

14. His hands are as rods of gold set with beryl; his body is as polished ivory overlaid with sapphires.

 

15 His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold; his aspect is like Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.

16 His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'

and for the last verse 16 here is the Hebrew Original version of it:

 

חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם

 

Now its clear its talking about someone who surely to come 

He terms him as "Friend" , "beloved" according to the Translators of the bible

but how is the Word Pronounced? Well if we go to the Hebrew - English Translator:

and Translating the Following Word:  מחמד

 

 

post-83202-0-41706300-1377440706_thumb.g

And y Translating the Word also in

http://www.freetranslation.com/

We Will come up with:

MUHAMMAD

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
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Has anyone stopped to think why the Prophet Moses [a] was mentioned so many times in the Qur'an and why God was telling and reminding Muhammad of the events in the life of Moses [a]?

Deuteronomy 18 would give you a strong indication as to why this may be.

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Bible confirms that muhammad was last messenger 

 

Serious question;

Do muslims actually believe this, or do they just repeat what they must, or what they've been told?  Because if you really take the time to study scriptures it is quite obvious that there is no reference to any human prophet to come after Yahshua.

An argument might be made for the prophesies of Isaiah referring to Muhammad and not to Yahshua, but Muhammad himself in no way discounted Yahshua as a messenger of God, so that doesn't really work either.  So I just don't see how muslims believe this myth that they have been told.

 

Salaam.

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^... I think the argument supported from Deuateromy is pretty strong. Also, the Spirit of Truth could be a direct reference to Muhammad if you take into consideration external evidence as well. If you just take the Gospels account than you can't conclude it refers to Muhammad or the Holy Ghost as you believe because neither of them fit the criteria mentioned.

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Greetings Ali Musaaa,

 

I understand what you are trying to say but Deut. 18 speaks of two different kinds of prophets, the one that would come from the brethren of the Israelites... and another kind.

 

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously

 

 

What thing did Muhammad ever say would come to pass, which then did come to pass?

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We have explicit Ahadith where the Prophet [sawa] himself states that all humans are born as a Muslim (submitting to Gods will) and then if their parents are not Muslim they grow to adopt the traditions of their parents.

 

I'm guessing you haven't had kids yet. All humans are born with one thing in mind, mother's milk. They quickly learn how to get it by crying. As far as they are concerned, the world revolves around them. A second child shatters that belief and jealousy takes over. Then the fun of parenting starts. Nothing to do with submitting their will to any body, or any thing.

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Hi Islam,

 

You asked me to explain what I said in Post 20:

Quote: The Scripture teaches that innocent children will not be punished for sin, --- but when they come to the age of ‘accountability,’ --- when they develop ‘God consciousness,’ they are then responsible for their actions.

--- Let’s suppose that when the Scripture says, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,” --- that it speaks of those who are over the age of accountability. --- So as Christians we say that each person has to make their personal decision to follow the Lord. --- And that each person is responsible for their own sin. --- End of quote,

 

If children are born with the DNA of their parents then they are of the same sinful nature as their parents, are they not?

I don’t see anything in the Quran that speaks of children being born pure or holy, except for what it said of Jesus in Surah 19:

19 He (the angel Gabriel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

 

--- And again in Surah 3:

3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

 

So Jesus was the only one that it speaks of in the Quran who was called ‘a holy son,’ --- born from one parent and who was ‘decreed’ to be a Sign unto mankind.

 

But as Son said in Post 31, ‘when you have children you see their rivalries,’ --- Parents have the responsibility of teaching the children to follow the right path. As the verse says:

“Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.”

 

--- On the other hand, --- are you saying that children start out holy and are taught wrongly by parents and teachers, --- except for that they would remain holy, would they not?

--- Or else, left to themselves with no teaching, would they not remain holy?

 

I had asked Ali to explain this as well. --- The hadiths may be part of your faith, but I am still learning to understand the Quran, so if it isn’t in there, then we have to leave it at that. --- Anyway, the Quran is to be the final authority, is it not?

 

Placid

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Cute, but why not start reading from verse 1?

 

Also, try the translating thing again, but with a proper translator.

 

http://translation.babylon.com/hebrew/to-english/

 

 

Use an English - Hebrew Dictionary, You can download a Pdf version on line.

its Clearly Muhammad.

  

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Hi,

 

The Song of Solomon was written like a Shakespearean play, or an Opera.

In these verses in the Song of Solomon chapter 5: 11-16, it is describing a superhuman being that could only be from the exaggerated imagination of a lover.

 

If we go back to the first verses we find that a lady waits for her lover, and she seems to fall asleep.

4 My beloved put his hand By the latch of the door

6  I opened for my beloved, But my beloved had turned away and was gone.

I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

 

--- (Then she appeals to the Daughters of Jerusalem to help her)

8 I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, If you find my beloved,
That you tell him I am lovesick!

 

--- (And they respond)

9 What is your beloved More than another beloved,
O fairest among women? That you so charge us?

 

Then this lovesick girl goes into her description of her special friend.

--- Before the end of the drama they do get married.

 

--- Some have questioned why this was included in the OT, but woven through the drama is a prophecy that is difficult to understand.

The characters are imaginary, so nothing can be derived from names.  

 

The Bible and the Quran were written plainly enough so we do not need to try to

search for names. --- If it said Muhammad, then we could examine the context.

--- Others have tried to associate the name Ahmed, but it is a common name.

There has recently been a leader by the name of Ahmed-inajad, a Muslim, but I don’t think he had any association with the Quran or the Bible.  

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Actually the Jews know their book better than you western Christians we don't know even a letter of hebrew.

 

 

Ask any rabbi he will tell you that they are waiting for 3 people, the messiah's helper, the messiah, and the prophet of Deuteronomy.

This is actually confirmed by the NT as well....

 

 

  • Gospel according to John
    1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
    1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 
    1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be 
  • 1 not that Christ 
  • 2 nor Elias,
  • 3 neither that prophet?
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Use an English - Hebrew Dictionary, You can download a Pdf version on line.

its Clearly Muhammad.

This is a Hebrew English dictionary, not a "freetranslation" and as you can see the translation aligns very much with the rest of the actual story. The verses you quoted are the description of a woman looking for her lover. Read from verse one.

adj./n. beauty, charm; darling

adj./n. sweetheart, darling; delight, charm

 

Actually the Jews know their book better than you western Christians we don't know even a letter of hebrew.

 

 

Ask any rabbi he will tell you that they are waiting for 3 people, the messiah's helper, the messiah, and the prophet of Deuteronomy.

This is actually confirmed by the NT as well....

 

 

  • Gospel according to John

    1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

    1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 

    1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be 

  • 1 not that Christ
  • 2 nor Elias,
  • 3 neither that prophet?

 

 

Why baptizest thou then, if thou be ...be what???

 

20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”

21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”

23 He said: “I am

‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

“Make straight the way of the Lord,”’[g]

as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

28 These things were done in Bethabara[h] beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

The Jews know their scriptures well, and have interpreted it in their way. They have been waiting for a warrior type king who would lead them to global victory.

 

What else does John 1 say? 11 He came to His own,and His owndid not receive Him.

 

Who are we waiting for??? I dunno, the list keeps getting bigger.

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