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IbnSohan

Egypt Declares National Emergency

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I think CLynn prefers that people live under dictators?  Religion was 'kept out' of the Egyptian dictatorships (Mubarak, the army, etc) quite well, and their relentless torture and massacres are open for everyone to see. Just like the misguided American leaders, CLynn will claim to support democracy only as long as the people vote in American puppets. 

 

As professor Chomsky showed, Wikileaks proved American and Israeli regimes support dictatorship and subvert democracy so that they can control resources (and thus power) in the middle-east:

 

 

Noam Chomsky is an American linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, logician, political critic, and activist. He is an Institute Professor and Professor (Emeritus) in the Department of Linguistics & Philosophy at MIT, where he has worked for over 50 years. In addition to his work in linguistics, he has written on war, politics, and mass media, and is the author of over 100 books. Between 1980 and 1992, Chomsky was cited within the field of Arts and Humanities more often than any other living scholar, and eighth overall within the Arts and Humanities Citation Index during the same period. He has been described as a prominent cultural figure, and was voted the "world's top public intellectual" in a 2005 poll. 

Edited by aliasghark

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I wonder if the armed forces are killing as many Egyptian people as possible (>600 so far) to satisfy the American regime?

 

America sends the Egyptian military 1.3 billion dollars every year in aid. The military has to be accountable to the American regime after all. 

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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/08/obama-addresses-situation-in-egypt.html

 

Personally,

last night I was horrified to see an Egypt on fire, and even more devastating it was, to learn that this was a mosque that was burning to the ground.  A mosque... a place intended for worship to God
these are places of worship, that no matter how different a people's beliefs may be...
a place where people gather to honor their higher power.
If these places are truly places where people go to serve God, how does it benefit anyone when they are burnt down?
My heart is with the people... whoever they are.  No one deserves to lose their place of worship... as long as that place is truly serving a good purpose for the people... as long as it is the people's place for honoring a good, and Godly, higher power than themselves.

 

Salaam.

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last night I was horrified to see an Egypt on fire, and even more devastating it was, to learn that this was a mosque that was burning to the ground.  A mosque... a place intended for worship to God

 

Yup, that's what the military coup was expected to do (this military is aided by the American government by more than a billion dollars a year), bloodshed and chaos. 

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Please watch the video at the link I provided.

 

I heard something on the radio this morning worth sharing;

 

"Study - Don't start yapping about things you don't really know."

 

I think this is good advice.

Probably also the reason muslims are admonished not to backbite... it only increases animosity and division.  It is not a means to peace... within oneself, or with others.

 

Salaam.

Edited by CLynn

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egypt is literally under the knifes edge of a civil war, i only fear for the loss of innocent lives especially those shia's who are living there currently.

 

Greetings syeduddin,

 

I was under the impression that is was a sunni mosques that was burnt down.  Am I mistaken?

 

Salaam.

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Egypt - religion gone wrong

Religion must be kept out of government.

So sad to see Egypt deteriorating into civil war after all the seemingly positive moves of the recent past.

 

 

Some of us see the fundamental problem as the annual donation of $1bn by the U.S. government to one (military) section of the Egyptian population, who then tighten the thumbscrews on everyone else.

 

There's no other reason for this aid. After all they are not going to be invaded by Sudan or Libya. 

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CLynn and Islamphobia:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ex--cSIOPQ


egypt is literally under the knifes edge of a civil war, i only fear for the loss of innocent lives especially those shia's who are living there currently.

Shia population is small, many of them are living under Taqiyyah. The ones who are truly targeted are the Christians, many of their churches were burned but I think the Western world is not intending to stop that if their plan is to split Egypt to secular north and barbaric south.


I wonder if the armed forces are killing as many Egyptian people as possible (>600 so far) to satisfy the American regime?

 

America sends the Egyptian military 1.3 billion dollars every year in aid. The military has to be accountable to the American regime after all. 

There was a clip in youtube where the congress was interviewing a military figure "dampsy" something, to re-elect him as head of military forces in middle east, he described the situation as good investment, they provide Egypt with weapons that they may not use while Egyptians gives them many strategical benefits.

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I wonder if the armed forces are killing as many Egyptian people as possible (>600 so far) to satisfy the American regime?

 

America sends the Egyptian military 1.3 billion dollars every year in aid. The military has to be accountable to the American regime after all. 

 

Do those people not belong to the same group of barbarians who killed shaikh hassan shehata and his companions and dragged their bodies on streets? Do they not follow the same doctrine as that of takefiris and nawasib? I wonder how and why the hearts of some shia still go out to those descendents of banu ummayyia's filth? 

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Do those people not belong to the same group of barbarians who killed shaikh hassan shehata and his companions and dragged their bodies on streets? Do they not follow the same doctrine as that of takefiris and nawasib? I wonder how and why the hearts of some shia still go out to those descendents of banu ummayyia's filth? 

 

If you have no consistency you have no principles. Do you think Egypt should be a democracy or dictatorship? 

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If you have no consistency you have no principles.......should be a democracy or dictatorship? 

 

You are right! I'm consistent in hating them...and how I love this consistency ALHAMDOLILLAH!  

 

If democracy adds to miseries of shia then to hell with it and with those who support and nurture it and those who die protecting it. 

Edited by kaash

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Some of us see the fundamental problem as the annual donation of $1bn by the U.S. government to one (military) section of the Egyptian population, who then tighten the thumbscrews on everyone else.

 

There's no other reason for this aid. After all they are not going to be invaded by Sudan or Libya. 

 

Greetings Haji,

You should watch the following;

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/july-dec13/egypt2_08-14.html

 

As regards funding provided to Egypt, as much, or more is coming from Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Kuwait

 

Greetings IbsSohan,

 

Watch the full video which is 7 minutes long

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/08/obama-addresses-situation-in-egypt.html

If you have no consistency you have no principles. Do you think Egypt should be a democracy or dictatorship? 

 

Greetings aliasghark,

 

I'm curious... Do you think it should be a democracy or a dictatorship?

Edited by CLynn

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Obama is trying to show that the American regime doesn't support the military dictatorship in Egypt through this cosmetic gesture. If they were serious the billion dollars yearly payment to the military would have been cancelled.

As for Saudi Arabia etc yes of course that's one non-representative dictatorship helping another non-representive dictatorship. All of these dictatorships enjoy the support of America.

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Obama is trying to show that the American regime doesn't support the military dictatorship in Egypt through this cosmetic gesture. If they were serious the billion dollars yearly payment to the military would have been cancelled.

As for Saudi Arabia etc yes of course that's one non-representative dictatorship helping another non-representive dictatorship. All of these dictatorships enjoy the support of America.

 

Greetings aliasghark,

 

You did not answer the question.

"Do you think Egypt should be a democracy or dictatorship?"

 

I'd like to know your answer.

 

Shukran und salaam.

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If you have no consistency you have no principles. Do you think Egypt should be a democracy or dictatorship? 

 

For God's sake what kind of democracy you will bring through Salafis and Shaitan-Brotherhood? BE REALISTIC HERE PLEASE!

 

Why people soon forgot that Mursi and Salafis became the MOST LOYAL DOGS OF THE WEST in a matter of a few years?

 

No Arab leader, no Arab party, no Arab country, from Jordan to Morocco, from Saudi to UAE became that low and loyal dog of the West-Israel that Mursi and his government became! What happened to all those days as we remember (I mean til a few months ago)?

 

Mursi did everything in his best to keep Ikhwan and Salafis in power, he was even ready to sell his wife to Israel and Clinton, after he sent love-letters to Israel and declared Jihad on Syria to appease his masters...and demanded a no-fly-zone and broke Egypt's diplomatic ties with Syria for the first time in the history of Egypt over sectarian issues and just to please his masters in the White House and London.

 

I am not really sure what is the alternative here?

 

At least Sissi never claims to be an Islamist, Mubarak never claimed to be one of those who opposed the west... he clearly represented a secular-western puppet...and period. Why did the so called Islamists become more puppet to their opponents' masters than their opponents?

 

It is amazing how ppl just want to 'hide' the facts here!

Edited by Noah-

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Noah-, as discussed before these guys may be horrible and guilty of everything possible bad thing, but they're still the winners of the Egyptian elections and therefore the people's choice. We outsiders need to respect their people's will. 

 

If we don't, we're no better than American and Israeli regimes, who claim to support democracy but as soon as someone they don't like wins they discredit the result. Just a few years ago, they were championing democracy and elections in Palestine expecting Fateh to win, and when Hamas won they called them an illegitimate government and started to undermine their functioning. They didn't show any respect for the Palestinian people's choice either. 

 

Neither of these actions are consistent with the belief that democracy is the best option. Just like when Egyptian protests were happening and US vice president Joe Biden said that Mubarak was an ally and a force for stability, and that he wouldn't call Mubarak a dictator showed, that it was mere words and in reality they didn't stand for liberty and freedom, we would be doing the same thing if we don't accept the Egyptian election's winners. Any fair-minded person would be terribly disappointed with the way the elections turned out (some of the most savage elements were part of MB), but still hold off till the next elections and not support killing of all MB supporters.

 

We need to be respectful of the outcomes of elections. We have to be better than the hypocrites whom we criticize. We can't become the same as America, Israel, and Wahabis. 

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Noah-, as discussed before these guys may be horrible and guilty of everything possible bad thing, but they're still the winners of the Egyptian elections and therefore the people's choice. We outsiders need to respect their people's will. 

 

If we don't, we're no better than American and Israeli regimes, who claim to support democracy but as soon as someone they don't like wins they discredit the result. Just a few years ago, they were championing democracy and elections in Palestine expecting Fateh to win, and when Hamas won they called them an illegitimate government and started to undermine their functioning. They didn't show any respect for the Palestinian people's choice either. 

 

Neither of these actions are consistent with the belief that democracy is the best option. Just like when Egyptian protests were happening and US vice president Joe Biden said that Mubarak was an ally and a force for stability, and that he wouldn't call Mubarak a dictator showed, that it was mere words and in reality they didn't stand for liberty and freedom, we would be doing the same thing if we don't accept the Egyptian election's winners. Any fair-minded person would be terribly disappointed with the way the elections turned out (some of the most savage elements were part of MB), but still hold off till the next elections and not support killing of all MB supporters.

 

We need to be respectful of the outcomes of elections. We have to be better than the hypocrites whom we criticize. We can't become the same as America, Israel, and Wahabis. 

 

Brother who cares if they are the winner or the loser? First of all ou tof 22 parties who stood by Mursi and elected him, only 2 remains loyal, one: MB and second the Salafi Nour party. All others are out and they joined the opposition groups creating new oppositions with millions came to march on the streets in the largest crowd recorded in the history of Egypt before Sissi removed them.

 

Secondly, why should I be so naive... In Saudi there might be an election tomorrow and people might vote for someone who forces the 15% Shias of Saudi to convert to Wahabism... should I respect the elected guy or those who voted for him? Democracy/elections/securlarism have their norms, regulations and standards... You simply cannot come to power through elections but the next day oppose the elections and oppress every single people the next day.

 

And how many Sunni countries, groups, scholars or even people respected the 'election in Iraq' and they respected the Iraqi government, the Iraqi PM Al-Maliki for example? The Sunni countries and public opinion is to welcome the elected Iraqi government with bombs and daily killings....WHY? Because he comes from a Shia background.... and few ministers he appointed were Shia... Who respects the Iranian election in the Sunni-Arab world? Whatever the western states said about Iran, they followed and propagated in their media.

 

AGAIN, DEMOCRACY AND SALAFISM/IKHWANISM can never go along. They are the guys of Sharia, who themselves clearly confess that democracy is 'haram' and elections are forbidden... but they are monafiq, when they had the chance to come to power with the help of the western states, Turkey and Qatari money, they decided to run in democratic elections just to come to power and the next day step on every sigle standards of democracy and human rights, including the monafiq-Salafi party, Nour Party.

Edited by Noah-

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Greetings Haji,

You should watch the following;

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/july-dec13/egypt2_08-14.html

 

I think you should as well. Go to the 5 minute mark. There you will find pbs putting forward some excuses for the massacre. Contrast this with the way that the American media dealt with the protests in Iran following the previous elections (when Ahmedinejad was elected for the last time).

 

In Iran the casualties were literally a handful, indeed so few that the western media had to resort to making a symbol of one woman (see posts on shiachat for the poems). Yet the condemnation of Iran far more forthright.

 

The inference I draw from this is that the Egyptian military have the green light from the U.S. the only proviso being to be quick so the U.S. can deflect the PR damage. Sure this is all realpolitik, but it sounds a bit hypocritical when the same people get all misty eyed about democracy when it suits them.

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I think you should as well. Go to the 5 minute mark. There you will find pbs putting forward some excuses for the massacre. Contrast this with the way that the American media dealt with the protests in Iran following the previous elections (when Ahmedinejad was elected for the last time).

 

In Iran the casualties were literally a handful, indeed so few that the western media had to resort to making a symbol of one woman (see posts on shiachat for the poems). Yet the condemnation of Iran far more forthright.

 

The inference I draw from this is that the Egyptian military have the green light from the U.S. the only proviso being to be quick so the U.S. can deflect the PR damage. Sure this is all realpolitik, but it sounds a bit hypocritical when the same people get all misty eyed about democracy when it suits them.

 

Greetings Haji,

 

I really don't understand.  First of all 'there was a U.S. / EU delegation (not the U.S. acting alone) proposing that each side step back from the immediate confrontation'.  I don't see how, from this, you reach a conclusion of the U.S. 'giving the green light'?

I'm not being rude.  I truly am confused by what you say.  (and I really don't know how or why Iran comes into it)

 

Salaam,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Greetings Haji,

 

I really don't understand.  First of all 'there was a U.S. / EU delegation (not the U.S. acting alone) proposing that each side step back from the immediate confrontation'.  I don't see how, from this, you reach a conclusion of the U.S. 'giving the green light'?

I'm not being rude.  I truly am confused by what you say.  (and I really don't know how or why Iran comes into it)

 

Salaam,

CLynn

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016453-james-woolsey/

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Greetings Haji,

 

I really don't understand.  First of all 'there was a U.S. / EU delegation (not the U.S. acting alone) proposing that each side step back from the immediate confrontation'.  I don't see how, from this, you reach a conclusion of the U.S. 'giving the green light'?

I'm not being rude.  I truly am confused by what you say.  (and I really don't know how or why Iran comes into it)

 

Salaam,

CLynn

 

Well why didn't they take the same approach when Morsi was in power? Seems to me that this proposal was aimed at keeping the status quo i.e. the army in power. If you watch the video one of the commentators says that when the two sides did not accept, confrontation was 'inevitable'.

 

Note that the U.S. did not tell the people (the army) it gives $1bn per year - to avoid killing at all costs.

 

The comparison with Iran is instructive because the contrast with the low American tolerance shown to Iranian crackdowns on protestors is vivid.

 

In summary.

 

A thoroughly anti-democratic coup is currently supported by the U.S. Note that unlike other posters here, I DO NOT take an a priori position as to whether or not Morsi or the new regime are pro Shia. My focus is on supporting the principle of democracy. Morsi was elected in undisputed elections. If you believe in democracy you should be critical of your government's stance.

 

If you have a principle that you rate more highly than democracy you should state what that is.

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Brother who cares if they are the winner or the loser? First of all ou tof 22 parties who stood by Mursi and elected him, only 2 remains loyal, one: MB and second the Salafi Nour party. All others are out and they joined the opposition groups creating new oppositions with millions came to march on the streets in the largest crowd recorded in the history of Egypt before Sissi removed them.

That's a good point actually, I agree now. If most of the population came out in opposition to the elected party, then yes it's clear that they have lost legitimacy and support of the people. This is a very objective principle and can be used to measure the legitimacy of all governments (what percentage of the population are on the streets). In Bahrain too, the numbers were mind-boggling and I think no other country had seen that high level of participation in protests against the regime before. Since this appears to be the case in Egypt too, they're no longer representative of the people. Some percentage of the population will always be unhappy whoever wins the elections, but if most or the majority is out in the streets yes there's reason to stop supporting them.

Although just as a side note I would still not prefer to do all the bad things back to Wahabis that they did to us (because we would be stooping down to their low levels, unlike Imam Hussain who kept his dignity in Karbala and as a result it was made very clear who was representing the truth, and who was the oppressor). As Muslims, we should be reasonable and follow the path of the Prophet and Imams, who were extremely patient and responded with kindness to those who attacked them. If they went to war it was as a last resort in defence and even in any war they wouldn't adopt the tactics of the savages. If an enemy tried to run away they let him go and even escorted to a place of safety, as it says in the holy Quran. We have always maintained the higher moral ground and were more human than those we were against.

Edited by aliasghark

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That's a good point actually, I agree now. If most of the population came out in opposition to the elected party, then yes it's clear that they have lost legitimacy and support of the people. This is a very objective principle and can be used to measure the legitimacy of all governments (what percentage of the population are on the streets). In Bahrain too, the numbers were mind-boggling and I think no other country had seen that high level of participation in protests against the regime before. Since this appears to be the case in Egypt too, they're no longer representative of the people. Some percentage of the population will always be unhappy whoever wins the elections, but if most or the majority is out in the streets yes there's reason to stop supporting them.

 

But that's not really what Muslims are taught about democracy is it? The usual lesson is to do with the primacy of the ballot box. It seems to me that some people like to 'make up the rules as they go along'.

 

Remember that one of the ways in which the CIA got rid of Mossadegh in 1953 was via massive street protests.

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But that's not really what Muslims are taught about democracy is it? The usual lesson is to do with the primacy of the ballot box. It seems to me that some people like to 'make up the rules as they go along'.

Remember that one of the ways in which the CIA got rid of Mossadegh in 1953 was via massive street protests.

That's a great point too.

Yeah, the American government is just concerned about gaining more power directly and indirectly in the middle east, they like dictatorship if the dictator is friendly and call for democracy when they have subverted the process or co-opted the parties.

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When millions of people came out in the street to protest against Morsi, back in late June, as they say 'the handwriting was on the wall'. The U.S. saw that they could no longer support Morsi as he was a  completely incompetent puppet. So they switched to the military hunta which ruled Egypt for 30 years. The U.S is now providing cover for the military to get rid of the Ikwan. 

 

This conflict could be a blessing in disguise. If it goes on long enough, it could weaken both sides enough so that a real leader who has the interests of the Egyptian at heart and is not a slave of the U.S / Israel could rise. That is what I am hoping for. As for the short term, if I was in Egypt I would follow the advice of the Imams(a.s) and stay out of a conflict where basically both sides are evil. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Noah-, as discussed before these guys may be horrible and guilty of everything possible bad thing, but they're still the winners of the Egyptian elections and therefore the people's choice. We outsiders need to respect their people's will. 

 

If we don't, we're no better than American and Israeli regimes, who claim to support democracy but as soon as someone they don't like wins they discredit the result. Just a few years ago, they were championing democracy and elections in Palestine expecting Fateh to win, and when Hamas won they called them an illegitimate government and started to undermine their functioning. They didn't show any respect for the Palestinian people's choice either. 

 

Neither of these actions are consistent with the belief that democracy is the best option. Just like when Egyptian protests were happening and US vice president Joe Biden said that Mubarak was an ally and a force for stability, and that he wouldn't call Mubarak a dictator showed, that it was mere words and in reality they didn't stand for liberty and freedom, we would be doing the same thing if we don't accept the Egyptian election's winners. Any fair-minded person would be terribly disappointed with the way the elections turned out (some of the most savage elements were part of MB), but still hold off till the next elections and not support killing of all MB supporters.

 

We need to be respectful of the outcomes of elections. We have to be better than the hypocrites whom we criticize. We can't become the same as America, Israel, and Wahabis. 

 

1. Hitler too was democratically elected.

2. If Morsi respected democracy, he would have called for early elections given the huge protests he faced. That what a democratic leader should do.

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