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Abul Hussain Hassani

A Call For Debate With Shia On Imamah 2013

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I think the point that brother Dar is making relates to the unknown methodology you adhere too. So, for example, when someone is in discussions with a Salafi, you know how to cater your answer for his specific framework, likewise for a Barelvi, Deobandi etc. They all have comprehensive systems in place to let others understand their criteria.

 

With yourself and Ugly, no one knows what you believe. Do you argue just for the sake of it? You have like so many percentages next to your username, it hard to tell what you represent. Sometimes its like the 2 of you are calling us from 'Clarity and Certainty' into 'Confusion and Oblivion'...you both dont know what to believe, yet you want others to stop believing in what they believe lol

I know exactly what you're saying but its for another thread, I'll let this one get back on to the debate.

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On 8/17/2013 at 10:10 AM, Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz said:

You didn't read my post, or you are purposely being ignorant. I said clearly that Imamah is inside the Qur'an,

And like a clearly stated that's your interpretation. 

Anyways, like Nader stated, your debate is with Sunnis on the other website, I don't want to derail this thread. 

On 8/17/2013 at 5:23 PM, Dar said:

Yeah, don't waste your time with Ugly Jinn and Vigilare and their like. They just come to invalidate arguments as contrarians without giving us their affirmed religious framework. So just ignore them. Seriously.

That's funny coming from a mod when the forums objective is to have diverse discussions. Anyone who questions certain Shia beliefs will be labeled as a contrarian by you. Were you even here around 2003-2005, you really would've hated these forums, probably the best years this website ever had. You can ask Ali, Ya_Aba, Baatil, Wilayah, Inshallah, Abdulhujjah, Peer, etc. (all admins and mods). Most left or hardly post because of the recycled boring topics - which is basically what you want. 

Heck there was even a sunni mod back then, you would've had a heart attack. 

You are modding in the wrong forum. Maybe create a shia forum for shias only - convince the convinced, live happily ever after. 

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This thread is about the concept of Imamah. Please do not take the thread OT. 

Anything that you have to say on another subject, start another thread for it. 

Going forward from here, all OT posts will be hidden. Br. ^, this is not directed at you but others on this thread. 

I am going to be actively monitoring this thread, because the discussion is good so far and i think it's worth my time. 

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On 8/16/2013 at 10:11 PM, Ugly Jinn said:

Forgot about this thread.

If you need syllogism to define the fundamentals of your beliefs then you already lost the debate, just my opinion. 
 
Your conclusion is based on a false assumption that Imamat is clearly defined in the Quran, it's not. And because it's not, you need illogical figh related examples. 
 
Anyways, I already had enough debates on Imamat on this forum, I'll let other's debate. 

Yeppers, you got it. 

12 divinely appointed Imams succeeding the last Prophet is not defined in the Quran. Hence need salat examples to divert this fundamental to fallible sources (hadith) rather than to define it via the fundamental source (Quran).

My dear friend, I have given you verse that clearly show the concept of Imamah, So what is your reply? Also, you seem to have stopped replying in the Thread "Did Allah point a Successor." if you check it, You will see I have even scanned proof for you. Now Imamah has been mentioned many times, the concept is there in the Quran, but your doubting Imamah so much. Now in both shia and Sunni We know that Jesus had 12 or more then 12 successors, also we know the prophet Solomon (as) had an Imam also prophet Moses (as), and prophet Ibrahim who became an Imam him self (as). So Imamah is also mentioned in the Quran for every Nation. So why the doubt? In addition my dear friend Salat has been mentioned in the Quran, but the number of Rokat been mentioned? What about the Imama's after jesus? has their names been mentioned in the Quran? There were 124,000 prophets (as), So why have they not been mentioned in the Quran? Therefore the Concept of Imamah is there, but the names are not there. So your argument is baseless. What more Ironic Shura (electing) has never been mentioned in the Quran in the means to elect an Imam, and how is this so? how can people choose a guide? isn't Allah suppose to choose the guide for mankind?

Please read my previous reply on the verse I mentioned.

Wa al salam.  

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Guys... I dont think they have refuted it... Does anyone know? :lol:

Abul Hassan, do you wanna take a stab at it? How about you Igotquestions? Or JustTheTruth? Any sunnis wanna take a stab at it? ... \

This thread is getting boring :( They challenged imamate but no show....

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On 8/18/2013 at 8:21 PM, PureEthics said:

Guys... I dont think they have refuted it... Does anyone know? :lol:

Abul Hassan, do you wanna take a stab at it? How about you Igotquestions? Or JustTheTruth? Any sunnis wanna take a stab at it? ... \

This thread is getting boring :( They challenged imamate but no show....

The Irony no one answers my Questions....

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The Irony no one answers my Questions....

They just don't have the knowledge and information to do that. This is what happens when your mind is programmed into believing without research.

happens

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On 8/21/2013 at 2:11 AM, Ameen said:

They just don't have the knowledge and information to do that. This is what happens when your mind is programmed into believing without research.

happens

Funny you mention that because I was said to, the same thing by one of the people I was debating with....I was providing Evidences, but the only answer I got was

"believing into what  I think is right, (without Researching). I guess in the today's world, everyone is blamed for the same reason...When choosing to reveal the books....(*Sarcasm*).

Why do people find it hard to read? Like...its simple...Really...

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On 8/21/2013 at 2:52 AM, TheIslamHistory said:

Funny you mention that because I was said to, the same thing by one of the people I was debating with....I was providing Evidences, but the only answer I got was

"believing into what I think is right, (without Researching). I guess in the today's world, everyone is blamed for the same reason...When choosing to reveal the books....(*Sarcasm*).

Why do people find it hard to read? Like...iits simple...Really...

If you discuss and debate along the lines of sense, logic, nature, reality and facts, with the intention of either seeking or promoting the truth, then that is one thing.

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On 8/21/2013 at 3:04 AM, Ameen said:
On 8/21/2013 at 2:52 AM, TheIslamHistory said:

Funny you mention that because I was said to, the same thing by one of the people I was debating with....I was providing Evidences, but the only answer I got was

"believing into what I think is right, (without Researching). I guess in the today's world, everyone is blamed for the same reason...When choosing to reveal the books....(*Sarcasm*).

Why do people find it hard to read? Like...iits simple...Really...

If you discuss and debate along the lines of sense, logic, nature, reality and facts, with the intention of either seeking or promoting the truth, then that is one thing.

Agreed. I find it sad, thay people assume their correct.

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Agreed. I find it sad, thay people assume their correct.

But if you discuss and debate on the lines that, you are aware but not happy or comfortable with reality and facts, so you raise suspicion and cast doubt, with the intention of taking the discussion and debate to your desired direction, then that is another matter.

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Certain matters are considered crystal clear. They are clear as black and white but some matters fall into the grey area and therefore are based on difference in thought, opinion and point of view. These matters might be confusing for some.

confusing

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Bismillah

Salam,

Please forgive me for intruding here but i was reading some of the posts and someone mentioned the 'golden era' of sc of 2003-2005 - i really do miss the intellectual discussions and banter that used to take place back then...alas times and indeed ppl move on.

In terms of the topic, i really don't know why there's a discussion on imamate when really it should be on all the usool. (Or has that taken place?)

See, if one believes in tawheed and adl properly then believing all 124000 prophets (peace and blessings be upon all of them) were sinless and they had successors wouldn't be a problem. I mean putting all prejudices aside, if one sincerely questions their belief they most certainly will be guided to the truth.

We over complicate this beautiful religion. We are the ones at fault.

I can not believe in an All Knowing, All Merciful God without there being guidance for me towards Him (swt). So i believe that he sent Sinless people (prophets) to guide us to Him (swt). But like any ordinary person would leave a will behind before they died or had people that they seeked knowledge from whilst alive, i can not comprehend that the religion of Islam that took 23 years to perfect would go to vain for the next 1400 years or so. My brain just doesn't accept that an All Knowing God would not have planned what would happen after the Last Prophet (saw) is no more. How does this not show Justice of Allah swt? We, 1400 years later are meant to fend for ourselves? Lets suppose there are no successors - how is it Just of Allah (swt)? That means He (swt) is a weak God, an unfair God, He's the worst planner...because even a mere human (religion or no religion) plans who will look after their family, children, expenses etc. should something untoward happens...and here we are talking about a complete faith...an entire wholesome way of life...a complete guidance on how to worship Him (swt)...and He (swt) wouldn't leave successors after the seal of the Prophets (saw)? Isn't this injustice?

And if it is...then we have to question Allah (swt) justice. And that in my humble opinion where the discussion should really start.

It's very difficult to continue an academic discussion if the fundamentals are not exactly there. Start with tawheed and adl....because then you'll have interesting discussions about Prophethood and then Imamate. (And that does include the history and politics of the time too). I don't know how one can proceed a discussion just on Imamate without understanding and/or having belief/entire yaqeen on the first three usools.

Salaams and duas

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The subject of Imaamath is crystal clear, just as black and white. It doesn't fall into the grey area but is pushed towards that area. It's not just about Imaamath and where it comes from but infact it's about protecting the ideology and the school of thought that, one already believes in and comes from. This is what the whole discussion is based and evolves around. The fear to accept something different and to prepare for changes, concerning ones belief and faith. Lets break it down into simple terms:

 

Question 1, Imaamath [meaning leadership or divine guidance], is this [imaamath] from Allah or mankind??? Does Allah choose and appoint Imaams or does mankind do it themselves??? 

 

Answer 1, Brothers on this site have put many references forward from the Holy Quran, to prove that Imaamath is from Allah and he alone chooses and appoints Imaams for the guidance of mankind. On my behalf take a look at the following: Surah Al-Ambia, verse 73 and Surah Al-Qasas, verse 41.

 

The only reason why one disagrees with Imaamath being from Allah and Allah choosing and appointing Imaams for the guidance of mankind is to protect and defend the incident of Sakeefa and the four school of thoughts. The only reason why one disputes that the Prophet [pbuh] named and appointed his successor is to protect and defend the incident of Sakeefa. The discussions on Imaamath being from Allah and Khilaafath being from Muhammad [pbuh] are only kicked off, disputed then pushed into the grey area is to protect and defend sakeefa and the four school of thoughts! Simple and straight forward. To be continued.

Edited by Ameen

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Atee-ullaha, Wa-atee-Ur-rasool, Wa-ullul-amre-minkum. This verse is crystal clear that, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and also obey those among you who are worthy of giving orders. The first two authorities [Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)] are and were crystal clear. What is new is the third authority that has been put into place. But why not just simply mention the third authority??? Why start off with Allah and then his Messenger (pbuh)??? If the third authority was put into place all by itself then, one would certainly question the standard and limit of obeying and obedience towards this third authority.

 

To what standard and limit must one obey and show obedience towards this third authority??? Allah has clearly set the standard and limit of obeying and showing obedience towards this third authority, by mentioning himself and his Messenger (pbuh). Brothers and sisters this is a very serious business and Allah has clearly and very clearly mentioned the seriousness of obeying and showing obedience towards this third authority and that is, as you obey and show obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), you must exactly do the same towards this third authority.

 

If you do not obey and show obedience towards this third authority just as you would towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), then basically you are throwing yourself out of the fold of Islam because that is what would happen if you disobeyed Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). The matter is simple, straight forward and crystal clear but those who have problems with reality and facts, since they threaten their ideology [sakeefa], their belief and faith [four schools of thought] and their way of governance [Khilaafath-e-Rashidah], they will continue to create confusion

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walaikum asalam wrwbkt, this forum specially guy swords of sunnah they donot even know prophet sas gve nafqa from sadqa or not, they say prophet give nafqa from sadqa this is their knowledge and they call shia for debate i debated dialogued them but they just call me amature etc just foul words when no answers....they r cowards writing articles against shia fastly but they donot even know this small thing...in end they say prophet sas said so to give nafqa from land of sadqa nauzubillah...this is

basic blaspemous belief of those nasbis

Edited by BrockLesnar

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walaikum asalam wrwbkt, this forum specially guy swords of sunnah they donot even know prophet sas gve nafqa from sadqa or not, they say prophet give nafqa from sadqa this is their knowledge and they call shia for debate i debated dialogued them but they just call me amature etc just foul words when no answers....they r cowards writing articles against shia fastly but they donot even know this small thing...in end they say prophet sas said so to give nafqa from land of sadqa nauzubillah...this is

basic blaspemous belief of those nasbis

Brother ask them about verse 5:67. What was revealed towards or upon Muhammad (pbuh), which Allah didn't announce himself but left it to Muhammad (pbuh) to announce??? What was revealed by Allah and where is it in the Quran??? The principal is that everything that was revealed is and must be in the Quran. Yes????

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