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For Those Who Believed Thursday To Be Eid

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US Navy: "The lunar crescent's visibility cannot be predicted with certainty".

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/islamic.php

Now you know the marja says that it must be with certainty, so how the hell were you so certain and the US navy isn't?

LOL Saudi got it wrong again...

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There was a confirmed moon sighting in Chile, in South America on Wed Night.

http://www.moonsighting.com/

So for those in North America and West of there who believe in One Horizon, Such as followers of Sayyid Al Khoei(ra) and Sayyid Fadlallah(ra), Eid is Thursday. For those who believe in multiple horizions, such as followers of Sayyid Khameni(ha) and Sayyid Sistani(ha), Eid is Friday.

 

I'm not sure how Sunni Ulema declare Eid, I think it has to do only with astronomical calculations, i.e. one the moon is born, according to astronomical calculations, it is Eid for the whole world. The moon being visible is not necessary.  I think the article you posted is only reveling obvious facts, such as visibility of crescent is dependant on many things, atmospheric conditions, distance north or south of the equator, etc.  IMO, we should not let differences in Fiqh become a barrier between muslims. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Saudi use some ummul qura calendar, they don't even sight the moon! So its screwed up. Look at these figures for the UK:

http://www.icoproject.org/icouk/calendars/1434AH-summaryCalendarUK_UmmulQura.pdf

The bohra ismailis celebrated eid yesterday (Wednesday) which they have been using since the time of their fatimid imams in Egypt which also based on some astronomical calculations.

In the UK, for followers of sayed al khoei (ra), sayed sadiq shirazi (ha), eid will be on Friday. For sayed sistani (ha) followers it is on Saturday InshaAllah.

Edited by Labbayk

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US Navy: "The lunar crescent's visibility cannot be predicted with certainty".

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/islamic.php

Now you know the marja says that it must be with certainty, so how the hell were you so certain and the US navy isn't?

LOL Saudi got it wrong again...

And shia ulema......

Wrong again.

Edited by Nima

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Saudi use some ummul qura calendar, they don't even sight the moon! So its screwed up. Look at these figures for the UK:

http://www.icoproject.org/icouk/calendars/1434AH-summaryCalendarUK_UmmulQura.pdf

The bohra ismailis celebrated eid yesterday (Wednesday) which they have been using since the time of their fatimid imams in Egypt which also based on some astronomical calculations.

In the UK, for followers of sayed al khoei (ra), sayed sadiq shirazi (ha), eid will be on Friday. For sayed sistani (ha) followers it is on Saturday InshaAllah.

 

Saturday? Really? Its suppose to be friday at the most, otherwise, it would go above 30 days and you cannot do that.

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US Navy: "The lunar crescent's visibility cannot be predicted with certainty".

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/islamic.php

Now you know the marja says that it must be with certainty, so how the hell were you so certain and the US navy isn't?

LOL Saudi got it wrong again...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tact

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Sorry, Shared Night. Some call it One Horizon also, meaning the horizon line that stretches from North to South is continuous, for purposes of fiqh. Also, If followers of Sayyid Sistani in Europe started fasting Wednesday, they have to break their fast Fri. They cannot do it Saturday since this would make Ramadan 31 days, which is impossible. I heard some people started fasting Thursday in which case they could fast on Fri. 

 

The crescent will not be visible in Northern Europe until Fri, according to moonsightings.com

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Well i got the email from the two Shia organizations in N.American both confirming that Eid is on Friday.

 

Per Muslim Congress:

Dear brothers and sisters, assalamu alaikum

 

Taqabbalallaahu siyaamakum wa qiyaamakum
 
306.jpgSince no moon sighting is reported from any trustworthy witnesses, please fasttomorrow as the month of Ramadhan.

Friday 9 Aug., 2013 will be the Eid ul-Fitr day as per the fataawa of Imam Khomayni (ra) , Ayatullah al-Khui (ra), Ayatullah Khamenei (ha) and Ayatullah Seestani (ha). 

May Allah make this Eid ul-Fitr mubarak for the entire Muslim Ummah. 
 
 
 
 
Per The Council of Shia Scholars in N. America:

 

Dear Believers in North America,

as-Salamu Alaykum,

The Crescent Moon Committee of the Council of Shia Muslim Scholars in North America announces that there were no reports of sightings for the crescent moon of the month of Shawal in North America at the time of sunset, Wednesday, August 7, 2013. As a result, Thursday, August 8, 2013, will be the 30th of the holy month of Ramadan - "Ikmaal Iddah" - and Friday, August 9, 2013 will be considered the 1st of Shawal (the Day of Eid al-Fitr).

 

We ask the Almighty Allah to bless your work and shower you with His Blessings in this holy month, and to hasten the appearance of the Imam of our time (peace be upon him.)

 
Edited by awaiting_for_the.12th

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Well i got the email from the two Shia organizations in N.American both confirming that Eid is on Friday.

 

Per Muslim Congress:

Dear brothers and sisters, assalamu alaikum

 

Taqabbalallaahu siyaamakum wa qiyaamakum

 

306.jpgSince no moon sighting is reported from any trustworthy witnesses, please fasttomorrow as the month of Ramadhan.

Friday 9 Aug., 2013 will be the Eid ul-Fitr day as per the fataawa of Imam Khomayni (ra) , Ayatullah al-Khui (ra), Ayatullah Khamenei (ha) and Ayatullah Seestani (ha). 

May Allah make this Eid ul-Fitr mubarak for the entire Muslim Ummah. 

 
 
 
 
Per The Council of Shia Scholars in N. America:

 

Dear Believers in North America,

as-Salamu Alaykum,

The Crescent Moon Committee of the Council of Shia Muslim Scholars in North America announces that there were no reports of sightings for the crescent moon of the month of Shawal in North America at the time of sunset, Wednesday, August 7, 2013. As a result, Thursday, August 8, 2013, will be the 30th of the holy month of Ramadan - "Ikmaal Iddah" - and Friday, August 9, 2013 will be considered the 1st of Shawal (the Day of Eid al-Fitr).

 

We ask the Almighty Allah to bless your work and shower you with His Blessings in this holy month, and to hasten the appearance of the Imam of our time (peace be upon him.)

 

 

 

The Muslim Congress declaration is incorrect, they made a mistake. The Shi`a Chile masajids spotted the moon on Wednesday night, for `Eid Thursday.

In fact, on their website (http://muslimcongress.org/contentmc/home.aspx), they are only listing Eid on Friday for Sayyid Sistani, Khamenei and Khumayni. Sayyid Khu'i nor the Thursday `Eid is mentioned.

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Muslim Congress, and other North American Islamic centers, are only talking about something called "North America" that is an artificial designation and not a geographic region ... the sighting of the moon, no matter which marja' you follow, are not dependent upon such artificial boundaries and designation, their respective views are geographically region based... This is one of the amazing beauties of Islam, that by removing the calendar from purely nationalistic boundaries, it required Muslims to think beyond such artificialities. The moon, the sighting of the moon knows no boundaries, and depending on the marja you may follow, Eid is either Thursday or Friday, based on geographic regions. 

 

here is the Shi'a Muslim center's website in Chile where they celebrated Eid today, Thursday, based on confirmed sighting. 

 

http://www.islamenchile.cl/sitio/

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Muslim Congress, and other North American Islamic centers, are only talking about something called "North America" that is an artificial designation and not a geographic region ... the sighting of the moon, no matter which marja' you follow, are not dependent upon such artificial boundaries and designation, their respective views are geographically region based... This is one of the amazing beauties of Islam, that by removing the calendar from purely nationalistic boundaries, it required Muslims to think beyond such artificialities. The moon, the sighting of the moon knows no boundaries, and depending on the marja you may follow, Eid is either Thursday or Friday, based on geographic regions. 

 

here is the Shi'a Muslim center's website in Chile where they celebrated Eid today, Thursday, based on confirmed sighting. 

 

http://www.islamenchile.cl/sitio/

 

Is this a confirmed Shi`a masjid?

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And shia ulema......

Wrong again.

 

 

 

 

If you can read arabic or farsi check this article out:

 

It provides hadiths where it mentions astronomers and people of calculations shouldnt be used to determine the moon sighting....

 

http://imamsadeq.com/ar/index/articleView?articleId=3543

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If you can read arabic or farsi check this article out:

 

It provides hadiths where it mentions astronomers and people of calculations shouldnt be used to determine the moon sighting....

 

http://imamsadeq.com/ar/index/articleView?articleId=3543

 

The science to predict the visible hilal didn't exist in the time of the ahadiths, making this a moot point. Moreover, as I recall, the astronomers in question in the day that were criticized were advocating basing a fixed calendar on the vastly more easily calculated new moon. The astronomers of the day came up with something like what the Saudis use today. That is what was criticized. To suggest that we would be blanket prohibited from predicting a regular natural phenomenon through science forever would require one to pitch out the Islamic philosophy of science in its entirety.

 

But beyond even this, the point about tact regarded the fact that you're an Usooli taqleedi insulting people who had eid on Thursday when the views of a number of maraja supported taking eid on Thursday.

Edited by kadhim

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The science to predict the visible hilal didn't exist in the time of the ahadiths, making this a moot point. Moreover, the astronomers in question in the day that were criticized were advocating basing a fixed calendar on the vastly more easily calculated new moon. The astronomers of the day came up with something like what the Saudis use today. That is what was criticized. To suggest that we would be blanket prohibited from predicting a regular natural phenomenon through science forever would require one to pitch out the Islamic philosophy of science in its entirety.

 

Brother, for someone who does not advocate the taqlid system, I suggest you learn arabic and you can read the article.

 

Actually the science/mathematics did exist, hence the hadith. Also, do you not think the Imam's knew? They did have divine knowledge after all. The point isnt that it isnt allowed, its that this method isnt accurate, and the best way is by sight itself. No I was not trying to insult those who had eid on thursday. I was trying to show that those who always end up following the saudi way are always mistaken, after all since like you said Im a "taqlidi" (never heard that one before), why would i insult other marjas?

Edited by PureEthics

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Brother, for someone who does not advocate the taqlid system, I suggest you learn arabic and you can read the article. 

 

I've seen the argument before in other articles. It doesn't hold up.

 

Actually the science/mathematics did exist, hence the hadith.

 

I have a university education in Physics and math. It didn't.

The ability to calculate this effectively came only in recent decades.

 

The point isnt that it isnt allowed, its that this method isnt accurate, and the best way is by sight itself.

 

The principles of the motion of the earth, sun, and moon, the physics of refraction, the optics of the eye, and the typical psychophysics of optical perception are known. It's simply a matter of accounting all the relevant factors and calculating. It's difficult, but by no means impossible to calculate. The folks at Moonsighting.com have been doing this for some time, with the predictions checked against the data and the models iteratively refined over time accordingly.

 

No I was not trying to insult those who had eid on Thursday. I was trying to show that those who always end up following the saudi way are always mistaken

 

Well, you did a pretty poor job then. From the title "To those who believed Thursday to be eid," to the present suggestion that anyone who took eid on Thursday was "following Saudi." A large portion of the Shias broke fast today, for reasons coming from the guidance of Shia scholars, and you owe them an apology.  NOW.

Edited by kadhim

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I've seen the argument before in other articles. It doesn't hold up.

 

 

I have a university education in Physics and math. It didn't.

The ability to calculate this effectively came only in recent decades.

 

 

The principles of the motion of the earth, sun, and moon, the physics of refraction, the optics of the eye, and the typical psychophysics of optical perception are known. It's simply a matter of accounting all the relevant factors and calculating. It's difficult, but by no means impossible to calculate. The folks at Moonsighting.com have been doing this for some time, with the predictions checked against the data and the models iteratively refined over time accordingly.

 

 

Well, you did a pretty poor job then. From the title "To those who believed Thursday to be eid," to the present suggestion that anyone who took eid on Thursday was "following Saudi." A large portion of the Shias broke fast today, for reasons coming from the guidance of Shia scholars, and you owe them an apology.  NOW.

 

The argument doesnt hold up? Sorry Mr. PHD, but its not an argument, its just another source showing otherwise. You have "university education" ? :O . I must bow down :lol:  Whether it was effective or not wasnt the point. The point was, the math and science did exist, nor is it the best way. Eye sight, is by far more accurate then computation. You dismissed my point. Do you not think the imam had the knowledge of calculating in ways that we have now? Obviously, so do you not think they know better? Once again, I said, to those who use saudi methods, not following saudi. I owe them an apology? Come on bro, grow up, its the internet. I didnt insult anyone to the point they are depressed, sad, and crying.

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Yes, I dismissed your point, because you didn't have one. The Imams did not condemn calculations in general. They condemned contemporary astronomers. Try to keep up.

I don't expect you to bow down, just to be humble and honest and acknowledge that you don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say.

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Yes, I dismissed your point, because you didn't have one. The Imams did not condemn calculations in general. They condemned contemporary astronomers. Try to keep up.

I don't expect you to bow down, just to be humble and honest and acknowledge that you don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say.

 

Where does it state contemporary scholars?

 

Anyway, im sorry to everyone, im a loser, who is a liar, who doesnt know anything.

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^Because that's why they were talking about it in the first place. One of their companions asked them about contemporary astronomers. You think the companions asked about hypothetical astronomers? Contemporary astronomers who didn't have the science to really calculate visibility, and were incorrectly forming their calendars based on new moon instead.

I'm going to go back for a minute to a misconception you expressed that I didn't challenge earlier. The eye is not more accurate than computations. An easy example of this is the case of a cloudy day. If the hilal is, astronomically speaking, visible that night, but for the clouds, the eye of the ground based observer will correctly recognize this exactly 0% of the time. Computations on the other hand can recognize it.

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Salamun Alaikum

 

Where does it state contemporary scholars?

 

There is a huge difference between astronomers in those days and in our days. The former based their calculations of visibility based on conjecture and guesswork. Nowdays, their calculations are based on to-the-second accurance data. It is clear that the Imams (a.s.) were speaking of the "scientists" of those days. However did they also mean the all scientists for the rest of time? We are not sure. Therefore, we stick to what we are sure of: that the Imams (a.s.) only spoke of contemporary scientists, and this is how most maraji' nowadays see this. That is why they say that if one believes in astronomers, they should follow them. How do you think the whole prayer timetable is made? There is no need to completely disregard astronomers nowadays. After all, that is how you are proving that Saudia were lying when they saw the moon, because it couldn't be sighted then.

 

However, as sighting the crescent is what is important in the traditions of the Masoomeen (a.s.), the astronmical data, which is an objective science, should be used to determine the visibility of the moon, which is very subjective. The problem arises here.

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While I can understand the argument about the difference of the present-day astronomers to the ones at the time of the Aimmah (as), I also can understand the hesitation of most marja' to adopt it. Let me try to elaborate it here.

Reading the ahadith, there are 2 possible interpretations:

1. The beginning of the month can only be ascertained through sight

2. The beginning of the month can be ascertained through calculations, provided that the methodology is accurate.

So, the first issue for a marja' to tackle is to prove which interpretation is the most correct one. Due to the lack of explicit explanation from the ahadith supporting no. 2, it is understandable that the conservative ones will stick to no. 1.

Even when a marja' chooses interpretation no. 2, he will be faced with other issues: "When will a methodology be considered as sufficient so that it can be used? What are the criteria? Is what we currently have sufficient or not? How to ascertain it?"

For example, even the folks at moonsighting.com is still tweaking their criteria with sighting to continuously improving the accuracy of their methodology & criteria.

I'm not saying I'm rejecting calculations as a method to ascertain the beginning of a month. In fact, perhaps due to my engineering educational background, I personally prefer it.

I'm saying that due to the difficulties elaborated above, I'm not sure how we could arrive to a

condition where we have a calculation which criteria are unanimously agreed to be able to replace sightings. Perhaps this is one of the issues that can only be resolved after ghayb al-kubra ends.

Edited by rotten_coconut

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Aye, you raise some good points. I can respect a modern day marja who wants to see the methodology of it mature a bit for a few more years before accepting it as a measure. If the person respects the theoretical legitimacy of a sufficiently developed methodology of calculations, but just doesn't think it's quite there, I can respect that.

 

I think it's beneficial for everyone to encourage the techniques of prediction, even for the traditionalists who want to stick to naked eye sightings. The moonsighting curves can serve well to not only predict sighting ability, but to "falsify" scientifically impossible sightings (a la Saudi Arabia reports in the past)

 

One middle ground that might be considered (I don't know if any scholars take this POV) between allowing based solely on calculations and strictly requiring either you see it yourself or hear from two adult adil witnesses would be to allow the calculations to have the weight of one witness. So that, for example, it could provide an independent indicator to "strengthen" the certainty from a lone adil witness and raise it overall to yaqeen.

 

One of the phraseologies you hear mentioned about this issue is that the measure for an individual deciding when to start and stop fasting, is that the person has to reach a level of "certainty" that satisfies him personally. So every individual has to go with an opinion that satisfies him personally. So if calculations do not fully reassure one person, he should just go with sightings. If another person is satisfied with the accuracy of calculations. he should go with that.

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