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peace seeker

Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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statement:

. The holy prophet (pbuh) said whoever leader I am ali is his leader. So after the holy prophet said this who was the leader? Prophet (pbuh) or ali (a.s)? Remember there is no mention of the words AFTER ME.

As mentioned Earlier :

Statement:

You pointed out this hadith my brother. Well firstly the word used here is maula, maula is a word with many meanings ie; friend, cousin, helper, leader etc etc.

False. He mentioned Leader khalifa, and this is not false please Revise Musanad Ibn Hanbal.

‘to take over the government….to be in power, hold supreme power….to follow in succession’.

If Wali is interpreted as Master in the context of this verse, then it would make Allah (s), the Prophet (s) and those that give Zakat whilst bowing down in prayer to be the Master over the believers. If it also proven that the individual that gave Zakat in such a state, then it would be logical to assert that the individual that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì describes as the Master over the believers during the lifetime of the Prophet (s) succeeds him as the Master at the helm of the State after him (s).

Naturally Ansar.Org find such an interpretation of Wali in the context of this verse as unacceptable, since doing so, takes their first three khalifas out of the equation, which is why the author stresses the importance of rejecting this notion. It also destroys the orthodox Sunni stance that no nass (text) occurs relating to the Prophet (s) appointing a successor after him (s). Our assertion is that:

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. the verse descended in honour of Imam Ali (s)

( b. Wali here means Master

Now the best means of ascertaining the meaning of such a term would be to analyse the Hadeeth literature. After all, if Imam Ali (s) was indeed a Wali (friend) of the believers, then can Hadeeth literature point to the Holy Prophet (s) clarifying this fact and using the term Wali in this context? It is interesting to note that at no point has the author sought to site any Hadeeth literature that would point to Imam Ali (s) being the Wali of the believer from the context of friendship, had he done so, then his work would have been done, and no doubt the financial incentives from King Fahad would have doubled for him. His omission is quite intentional, for Imam Ali (s) has indeed been referred to as the Wali of the believers in Sunni Hadeeth literature but certainly not in the context of friendship. Allamah Dr Muhammad Tahir ul Qadri al-Hanafi in his book dealing with the traditions in honour of Maula Ali (s) ‘Kanzul Muttalib fee Fadail Manaqib Ali ibn Abi Talib’ records this on page 62:

“Hadhrath Imran bin Husain narrates the Prophet (s) said ‘verily ‘Ali is from me and I am from him. He is the Wali of every believer after me.

[sahih al-Tirmidhi, Vol 5, Page 236, al Sahih by Ibn Habban Volume 1 page 383, Mustadrak al Hakim , Vol. 3, p. 119, Sunan al Nasai Volume 5 page 132, by Ibn

Abi Sheeba Volume 6 page 383 Musnad Abu Yala Volume 1 page 293]”

Imam Nisai in ‘Khasais’, Imam Hakim in his ‘Mustadrak’ and Ibn Hajar Asqlani in ‘Al-Istiab’, Mulla Mutaqi Hindi in ‘Kanz ul Ummal’, Dahabi in ‘Talkhees Mustadrak’ and Al-Baani the Wahabi in ‘Silsilat al-ahadith al-Sahiha’ have decalred the tradition ‘Sahih’.

There is no doubt that Imam Ali (as) was always the friend of the believers. If the intention of the Prophet (s) was to clarify that Ali (s) was the friend of the believers what would have been the logic of him using the term ‘He is the Wali of every believer after me‘? It is clear that Rasulullah (s) was now referring to a different relationship that would exist between Ali (as) and the believers after him, one that would be implemented following his (s) death. It is logical that this can only refer to the station of authority, that the Imam (as) would attain as the Khaleefa after the Prophet (s). Now for Ansar.Org this tradition causes them a major headache? How do they react? They are left with two options:

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Ali (as) was the fourth rightly guided Khaleefa

( b. Ali (s) was the immediate Khaleefa after the Prophet (s)

If they embrace the first option that they no doubt will, how can this be held in tandem, with this hadith that cited Ali (s) as being the ‘Wali of every believer after me‘? Should the first three Khaleefa’s not be counted as believers in this tradition? If they are not, then they are not believers (Momineen). If they are counted as believers then what prevented them from adhering to the words of our Prophet (s) and accepting him as the Wali of every believer after the Prophet (s)?you are now left in a difficult position. They either declare that their first three leaders were not believers, or they deem them as rejecters of the dictates of Muhammad al Mustafa (s). It is only their desire to protect the doctrine of man made Imamate that has forced them to stress that Ali (s) was merely the friend of the believers and nothing more.

The rest of your answers are base on Rejecting Ulu Al mar, you only made an assumptions and showed no proof.

(salam)

1. Have I been talking to myself for the past two weeks??

I've answered you on these hadiths and you left the thread and yet you're back again with the same hadith?? What you trying to prove??

Il go through it for the last time.

Now a caliph is NOT only someone who is a political leader but also a spiritual leader, but if the spiritual leader becomes the political leader then this is even better. There is not one single verse mentioning that ali a.s will be leader after the prophet ( pbuh) so we can only interpretate the verses as best we can.

Now to prove my argument I turn towards the holy quran.

Surah 5:55

This verse cannot be the PRECISE verse talking about YOUR foundation (Imamate), because its not PRECISE and can be interpreted in many ways because of the word used wali.

So now each sect can interpretate this word as they please because it has many meanings.

Now if you look at the end of verse 3:7 it says;

And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Here Allah ( swt) is talking about those unspecific verses like the one above which no one but Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and those "firmly rooted in knowledge" know it's true meaning.

Now those "firmly rooted in knowledge" are not named so the saying "those firmly rooted in knowledge" is itself unspecific and each sect can easily say that their leaders are the ones "firmly rooted in knowledge".

Our "firmly rooted in knowledge" are our ulema and yours are your ulema and likewise for all the other sects.

Now our ulema say that ali a.s was the first WALIALLAH meaning friend of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and he was the the one who started of the lineage of spiritual peers.

That is how we interpretate these hadiths you are pointing out.

YOU SAID

IF Wali is interpreted as Master in the context of this verse

MY ANSWER

Exactly my point the key word is IF, so IF shia interpretate it as master then that's upto them but we don't.

YOU SAID

“Hadhrath Imran bin Husain narrates the Prophet (s) said ‘verily ‘Ali is from me and I am from him. He is the Wali of every believer after me.

[sahih al-Tirmidhi, Vol 5, Page 236, al Sahih by Ibn Habban Volume 1 page 383, Mustadrak al Hakim , Vol. 3, p. 119, Sunan al Nasai Volume 5 page 132, by Ibn

Abi Sheeba Volume 6 page 383 Musnad Abu Yala Volume 1 page 293]”

Imam Nisai in ‘Khasais’, Imam Hakim in his ‘Mustadrak’ and Ibn Hajar Asqlani in ‘Al-Istiab’, Mulla Mutaqi Hindi in ‘Kanz ul Ummal’, Dahabi in ‘Talkhees Mustadrak’ and Al-Baani the Wahabi in ‘Silsilat al-ahadith al-Sahiha’ have decalred the tradition ‘Sahih’.

MY ANSWER

Ive answered you above.

YOU SAID

There is no doubt that Imam Ali was always the friend of the believers. If the intention of the Prophet (s) was to clarify that Ali (s) was the friend of the believers what would have been the logic of him using the term ‘He is the Wali of every believer after me‘?

MY ANSWER

...because ali was to become the spiritual leader AFTER THE PROPHET ( pbuh).

YOU SAID

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Ali was the fourth rightly guided Khaleefa

( b. Ali (s) was the immediate Khaleefa after the Prophet (s)

MY ANSWER

A) became the political leader aswell as the spiritual

b became the spiritual leader.

YOU SAID

The rest of your answers are base on Rejecting Ulu Al mar, you only made an assumptions and showed no proof.

MY ANSWER

Is this how you escape from a debate?? By accusing me of making my "own assumptions"??

Come to the thread "ulil amr" and we'll talk even brother AMEEN admits that my questions and answers are good, if you don't believe me read his previous posts.

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement.
I've answered you on these hadiths and you left the thread and yet you're back again with the same hadith?? What you trying to prove?? 
 
No answer was given to my following Evidences, You only Replied by claiming whether it was meant something ells, or termed Differently.
As Mentioned Earlier, He the prophet (pbuh) said "Khalifa" various time to many people, and not just on Ghadir Khum, Also As mentioned earlier on

the post, I did not leave the thread, as I was busy with my own life situations, I only made statement to prove that you have been rejecting my claims
with no proof what so ever.
 
Statement
Now a caliph is NOT only someone who is a political leader but also a spiritual leader, but if the spiritual leader becomes the political leader then this is even better. There is not one single verse mentioning that ali a.s will be leader after the prophet ( pbuh) so we can only interpretate the verses as best we can.
  
 
Are you blind? I just mentioned many verses stating that every Nation must have a guide and Ali (as) is the guide. Can you please give me proof the prophet (pbuh) says Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar are political leaders?
And Ali (as) is just a Spiritual leader? You will find nothing. You Misunderstand, you cannot interpret the verse by your self, you can make an assumption, but you cannot interpret as you can I do not have the following: 

 
(1) Injtehada ( We are not Mujtahids)
(2) We are not Scholars.
(3) You have no Rank in this Area.
 

you Either provide reference to your own Tafsir and we can Agree or criticize what me or you have provided or compare & contrast. Other than that your Claims to me Refutations and your Refutations to my claims are Invalid. In addition Give a Hadith to support what you have claimed on the statement above, otherwise your making no sense.

 
 
 
statement:
Surah 5:55
This verse cannot be the PRECISE verse talking about YOUR foundation (Imamate), because its not PRECISE and can be interpreted in many ways because of the word used wali. So now each sect can interpretate this word as they please because it has many meanings. 

 
​Again you cannot interpret, as the reasons mentioned in second statement above, because the Quran in Fully Understood through Arabic and not English, you may use English to understand what your reading, but the meaning must go back to Arabic, and since you have no Knowledge in This area, then this is one of the 4 reasons Why you cannot claim to interpret the verse.
 
Concerning this verse 
 

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious.

(Quran 5:55-56)



It is unanimous that the verse descended about Imam Ali (as) when he gave away in charity his ring while he was in a state of kneeling in his prayer.
This is also authenticated successively according to the 12 Imams. Here are some of the Shi'ite references

- Bihar al-Anwar, by Allama Majlisi
- Tafseer al-Mizan, by Allama Tabatabai
- Tafseer al-Kashaf, by Allama Muhammad Jawad Mughniyah
- al-Ghadir, by Allama Abdul Husain Ahmad al-Amini
- Asbat al-Hudate, by Allama Muhammad Ibn Hasan Amuli


But for the sake of the post I shall produce some Sunni references, and
traditions in this respect through other sources. Many Sunni commentators of the Quran confirm the fact that the above verse descended on the honor
of Imam Ali (as) and many Sunni scholars have also mentioned the unanimity or consensus of opinion in their books. Here are some references in this
regard:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the
authority of Ibn Abbas
(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991
(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas


There is also a tradition related by Ibn Salam whose chain of sources rises up to the Prophet (P.B.U.H) himself. Please refer to the Sahih of Nisa'i or the commentary of Sura Ma'idah in Jam'a Bayn al-Sihah al-Sittah.

In Ghayah al-Maram, p18, Sayyid al-Bahrayni forwards twenty four (24) traditions from sources other than the Ahlul-Bayt, all supporting the above fact.

For the sake of brevity, I am going to confine my self to a tradition occuring in the commentary of the Quran by Abi Is'haq Ahmad Ibn Muhammad
ibn Ibrahim Nisaboori al-Tha'labi. A few comments on the respected personality: He died in 337 AH and Ibn Khallikan gives an account of his
death saying: "He was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir al-Kabir is superior to all other interpretations."

When he reached this verse he recorded this in his Tafsir al-Kabir on the
authority of Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, who said:

Both of my ears may turn deaf and both of my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, saying, "Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. he who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken." One day I said my prayers in the company of the Prophet. A beggar came to the mosque and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of kneeling in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who appraoched him and removed the ring from his finger. Thereupon the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, implored Allah the Mighty and Glorious, saying: "O Allah! My brother Moses begged you saying, 'My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from my kinsmen, Haroon, my brother, as my vizier, and strenghthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us.' And You inspired him: 'O Musa! All your requests have
been granted.' O Allah! I am your slave and your prophet. Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him."


Abu Dhar, then, proceeded

By Allah, the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Gabriel descended to him with this Verse

"Certainly Allah is Your Master, and His Prophet and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so
surely the party of Allah will be victorious."

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi under the commentary of
verses 5:55-56 of Quran.

 
Allama al-Tabarsi, while commenting on this verse in Majma' al-Bayanstates:
 
"The plural form has been used for Ali, Commander of the faithful, in order to express his honor and eminence." And masters of the Arabic language use the plural form for an individual to show respect. Allama al-Zamakshari in his Tafsir al-Kashshaf, has mentioned another nice point which is as follows: If you inquire how this plural word is applicable to Ali, may Allah be gracious to him, who is an individual, I shall say that though this verse is about Ali, an individual, the plural form is used in order to presuade others to act similarly and to give alms as readily as Ali did. There is also an implied instruction that the faithful should keep themselves always on the look out for occasions of acts of sympathy, benevolence and charity to the poor and the needy, and readily do the needful without waiting till the completion of even so important a duty as saying a prayer.
 
 
Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p649 Please refer to the Part II of the article of Ghadir Khum for further argument in this regard.      
 
 
 
 
And for the last time give me a Hadith where the prophet said " Ali you are a Spiritual leader." 

brother your Excuses really make no sense at All.
 
In addtion to did not answer my Question, your saying his a Spiritual leader when you have no proof.
Can you please give me proof that the prophet Said  " Abu bakr you are a Political leader of this Ummah.

Your the one who's escaping the Argument, because in all your statements have no proof and no foundation or even a source.
Second of All, your Claiming you have answered the Question, but you haven't since no proof was even provided for your statement.
Third of All this is not a Debate. Why? because a Debate is when ones opinion becomes Respected and valued in Contrast to the opposition,
But you have to evaluated any of my stance. 

  
 
1) The Prophet, hence, has made them equal only to the Glorious Book and set them models of conduct for those endowed with reason, and the ark of safety when hypocricy with its tumultous waves overwhelms the security of the nation, safeguarding it against dissension if the tempests of division rage, the Gate of Salvation: whoever enters it is forgiven, and the strong Rope of Allah which is unbreakable.
2) The Commander of the Faithful is quoted in sermon 86 inNahjul­Balagha as saying:

"`Where are you heading (Qur'an, 81:26),' and `where are you straying (Qur'an, 6:95, 10:34, 35:3, 40:62),' since the flags are poised up high, the Signs are clear, and the light­house is erected? So, where are you straying? Nay! How can you be blindfolded while you have among you the household (`itra) of your Prophet? They are the reins of righteousness, the religion's flags, and the tongues of truth; therefore, accord them as you accord the Qur'an and approach them as thirsty camels approach the water. O people! Take this from the last of the Prophets, Allah's peace be upon him and his progeny: `whoever among us passes away, he is not really dead, and whoever disintegrates (after dying) from among us does not really disintegrate; therefore, do not say what you do not know, for there is the greatest truth in what you deny. Accept the argument of one against whom you have no argument and it is: `Have I not dealt with you according to the Greatest Weight(Qur'an)? Have I not left among you the Lesser Weight (Ahl al­Bayt) and laid firm among you the flags of faith?'" 

 

He, peace be upon him, said, in sermon 96 of Nahjul­Balagha, "Behold the Household of your Prophet; emulate their example and follow in their footsteps, for they shall never take you out of guidance, nor shall they ever bring you back into destruction; halt when they halt, and rise when they rise, and do not go ahead of them lest you should stray, nor should you lag behind them lest you should perish." He, peace be upon him, has mentioned them once, as stated in sermon 237 of Nahjul-Balaghah, saying: "They are the life of knowledge and the death of ignorance; their forbearance informs you of their knowledge, and their outward appearance informs you of their conscience. Their silence indicates the wisdom of their speech. They neither differ from truth, nor do they differ among themselves about it. They are the pillars of Islam and the gateways to salvation. Through them, justice was achieved and wrong­doing was removed, and its tongue was uprooted. They comprehended the creed with care and concern, not like hearing and reporting, for the `reporters' of knowledge are many indeed, but those who safeguard it are few." He, peace be upon him, as stated in sermon 153 in Nahjul-Balaghah, has also said, "His offspring (`itra) is the best, and his family is the best. His tree is the best of trees: it was planted in the sacred place (Haram), and it grew like a vine; it has long branches and its fruit is not unattainable."
He, peace be upon him, is quoted in sermon 153 of Nahjul-Balaghah saying: "We are the banner, the companions, the trustees and the gates. Houses are not supposed to be approached except through their gates: whoever approaches them otherwise is called a thief," until he said, describing the purified offspring (`itra), "They are the vital portions of the Qur'an, and they are the teasures of the Merciful. They tell the truth when they speak, or when they remain silent; none can speak ahead of them. Therefore, let the forerunner speak the truth to his people, maintaining his reason."

 

He has said in sermon 146 of Nahjul-Balaghah: "You should know that you will never know guidance unless you know who abandons it, nor will you abide by the Book (Qur'an) unless you know who contradicts it, and you will never uphold it unless you know who has discarded it; so, seek that from those who possess it, for they are the life of knowledge and the death of ignorance. They are the ones whose judgment informs you of their knowledge, their silence of their power of speech, their outer appearance of their inner selves; they neither violate the religion, nor do they differ among themselves about it, while it is among them a truthful witness and a silent speaker."
There are many similarly impressive statements of his, peace be upon him, in this regard; consider this one which is excerpted from sermon 4 in Nahjul-Balaghah: "Through us you received guidance in the darkness, ascending the zenith of nobility, and through us you reached the light and dissipated the gloomy night. May the ears that do not listen to the summoner be deafened." He is quoted in sermon 104 of Nahjul-Balaghahsaying: "O people! Secure your light from the flame of the lamps of a preacher who follows what he preaches, and drink from a spring cleansed from impurity."
He has also said the following in sermon 108: "We are the tree of Prophethood, the place of the Message, the ones to whom the angels make a pilgrimage, the treasures of knowledge, the springs of wisdom. Our supporter and lover awaits the mercy, while our enemy or antagonist us awaits the wrath."
Among what he has said in this regard is sermon 143 ofNahjul-Balaghah wherein he says: "Where are those who claimed to be deeply versed in knowledge other than our own selves? (See also Qur'an, 3:7 and 4:162). It is a lie and a transgression against us, for Allah has raised us high while putting them down; He bestowed upon us while depriving them, and He permitted us to enter (in the fortress of knowledge) while turning them out. Through us, guidance is achieved and blindness is removed. Surely the Imams from Quraysh have been planted in Hashim's loins. Imamate can never fit anyone else, nor can government either." Then he stated: "But they preferred a speedy gain to a later one, forsaking a pure well to drink from an impure one," up to the end of his statement. He has also said at the conclusion of khutba (sermon) 189 ofNahjul-Balaghahh: "Whoever among you dies on his bed knowing the rights of his Lord and knowing the rights of His Messenger and his family (Ahl al­Bayt) dies as a martyr, and his reward will be incumbent upon Allah, and he deserves the reward of what good deeds he has intended to do: his own intention will make up for his use of his sword (in jihad)."

 

Also, he, peace be upon him, has said: "We are the virtuous; our descendants are the descendants of Prophets; our party is the party of Allah, the Sublime, the Glorified, while the transgressing party is the devil's; whoever equates us with our enemy is certainly not of us."
Imam al­Mujtaba Abu Muhammad al­Hasan, the patient, master of the youths of Paradise (as), has said the following in one of his sermons: "Fear Allah regarding us, for we are your rulers."

 

3) Whenever Imam Abu Muhammad, `Ali son of al­Husayn Zainul­`Abidin, master of those who prostrate in prayer, used to recite this verse of the Almighty: "O ye who believe! Fear Allah and be with the Truthful," he would make a lengthy invocation to Allah containing his plea to be included among "the Truthful" to attain the high ranks. He would then count the calamities and innovations of the group that split from the Imams of Faith and the Tree of Prophethood. Then he would say: "Some people went as far as underestimating us, making excuses for the Qur'anic verses which seem to them to be alike, giving their own interpretation thereof, and casting doubts about the transmitted narrarations in our honour," until he would say: "With whom shall people in this nation seek refuge, since the pillars of this creed have been forgotten and the nation has divided upon itself with dissension, each party accusing the other of kufr, while Allah says: `Do not be like those who became divided and disagreed (with each other) even after receiving the Clear Evidences (Qur'an, 3:104)?' Who can be trusted to convey the Divine proofs and interpret the Judgment other than the peers of the Qur'an and the descendants of the Imams of Guidance, the lamps amidst the darkness, those whom Allah made as His Arguments against His servants? He has never left His creation alone without a Proof. Do you know them or find them except from the branches of the Blessed Tree, the remnant of the Elite from whom Allah has removed all impurity, purifying them with a perfect purification, clearing them from sinning and decreeing their love in His Book?"
That was his own speech, peace be upon him, verbatim.Look into it and into our quotations from the speech of the Commander of the Faithful; you will find them both representing the Shi`a School of Muslim Thought in this regard very clearly. Consider this much of their speech as a specimen for all such speeches of the Imams from Ahl al­Bayt. They all are unanimous in this respect, and our sahih books quoting them aremutawatir (consecutively reported), and peace be with you. 
 

So we see in verse 3:7
 

 

Yusuf Ali

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

 

 

And whats your point that no names were given? you make no sense, When Allah mentions "Prophet" in the Quran, Which Prophet does he mean? We would alread know its Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), your argument is illogical because if your saying that ulma have and can know the FULL Hidden meanings. then your saying they have the same knowledge as Allah. Your Basically saying any one who can educate him self in Islam has the power to Know what Allah has made "hidden", knows. This is Considered as given a normal human beings the same position of the prophet (istaghfrallah), therefore anyone can know the hidden meanings. Brother When you make sense make a Descent reply please.

 

"firmly rooted in knowledge"? No one can be Firmly rooted or be from the "Absolute" knowledge accept those who are appointed by Allah prophets/Imams.

Again brother please make sense.

 

 

Statement:
Have I been talking to myself for the past two weeks??

 

Depends on how your perception works, Whether on Logical thinking or Ignorance.

 

 

 

(salam)  

  

 

__________________________________

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Statement.

I've answered you on these hadiths and you left the thread and yet you're back again with the same hadith?? What you trying to prove??

No answer was given to my following Evidences, You only Replied by claiming whether it was meant something ells, or termed Differently.

As Mentioned Earlier, He the prophet (pbuh) said "Khalifa" various time to many people, and not just on Ghadir Khum, Also As mentioned earlier on

the post, I did not leave the thread, as I was busy with my own life situations, I only made statement to prove that you have been rejecting my claims

with no proof what so ever.

Statement

Now a caliph is NOT only someone who is a political leader but also a spiritual leader, but if the spiritual leader becomes the political leader then this is even better. There is not one single verse mentioning that ali a.s will be leader after the prophet ( pbuh) so we can only interpretate the verses as best we can.

Are you blind? I just mentioned many verses stating that every Nation must have a guide and Ali (as) is the guide. Can you please give me proof the prophet (pbuh) says Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar are political leaders?

And Ali (as) is just a Spiritual leader? You will find nothing. You Misunderstand, you cannot interpret the verse by your self, you can make an assumption, but you cannot interpret as you can I do not have the following:

(1) Injtehada ( We are not Mujtahids)

(2) We are not Scholars.

(3) You have no Rank in this Area.

you Either provide reference to your own Tafsir and we can Agree or criticize what me or you have provided or compare & contrast. Other than that your Claims to me Refutations and your Refutations to my claims are Invalid. In addition Give a Hadith to support what you have claimed on the statement above, otherwise your making no sense.

statement:

Surah 5:55

This verse cannot be the PRECISE verse talking about YOUR foundation (Imamate), because its not PRECISE and can be interpreted in many ways because of the word used wali. So now each sect can interpretate this word as they please because it has many meanings.

​Again you cannot interpret, as the reasons mentioned in second statement above, because the Quran in Fully Understood through Arabic and not English, you may use English to understand what your reading, but the meaning must go back to Arabic, and since you have no Knowledge in This area, then this is one of the 4 reasons Why you cannot claim to interpret the verse.

Concerning this verse

Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow. And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious.

(Quran 5:55-56)

It is unanimous that the verse descended about Imam Ali (as) when he gave away in charity his ring while he was in a state of kneeling in his prayer.

This is also authenticated successively according to the 12 Imams. Here are some of the Shi'ite references

- Bihar al-Anwar, by Allama Majlisi

- Tafseer al-Mizan, by Allama Tabatabai

- Tafseer al-Kashaf, by Allama Muhammad Jawad Mughniyah

- al-Ghadir, by Allama Abdul Husain Ahmad al-Amini

- Asbat al-Hudate, by Allama Muhammad Ibn Hasan Amuli

But for the sake of the post I shall produce some Sunni references, and

traditions in this respect through other sources. Many Sunni commentators of the Quran confirm the fact that the above verse descended on the honor

of Imam Ali (as) and many Sunni scholars have also mentioned the unanimity or consensus of opinion in their books. Here are some references in this

regard:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55

(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289

(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219

(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68

(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294

(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649

(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the

authority of Ibn Abbas

(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji

(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543

(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38

(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991

(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir

(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

There is also a tradition related by Ibn Salam whose chain of sources rises up to the Prophet (P.B.U.H) himself. Please refer to the Sahih of Nisa'i or the commentary of Sura Ma'idah in Jam'a Bayn al-Sihah al-Sittah.

In Ghayah al-Maram, p18, Sayyid al-Bahrayni forwards twenty four (24) traditions from sources other than the Ahlul-Bayt, all supporting the above fact.

For the sake of brevity, I am going to confine my self to a tradition occuring in the commentary of the Quran by Abi Is'haq Ahmad Ibn Muhammad

ibn Ibrahim Nisaboori al-Tha'labi. A few comments on the respected personality: He died in 337 AH and Ibn Khallikan gives an account of his

death saying: "He was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir al-Kabir is superior to all other interpretations."

When he reached this verse he recorded this in his Tafsir al-Kabir on the

authority of Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, who said:

Both of my ears may turn deaf and both of my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, saying, "Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. he who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken." One day I said my prayers in the company of the Prophet. A beggar came to the mosque and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of kneeling in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who appraoched him and removed the ring from his finger. Thereupon the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, implored Allah the Mighty and Glorious, saying: "O Allah! My brother Moses begged you saying, 'My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me, and appoint from my kinsmen, Haroon, my brother, as my vizier, and strenghthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us.' And You inspired him: 'O Musa! All your requests have

been granted.' O Allah! I am your slave and your prophet. Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him."

Abu Dhar, then, proceeded

By Allah, the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Gabriel descended to him with this Verse

"Certainly Allah is Your Master, and His Prophet and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so

surely the party of Allah will be victorious."

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi under the commentary of

verses 5:55-56 of Quran.

Allama al-Tabarsi, while commenting on this verse in Majma' al-Bayanstates:

"The plural form has been used for Ali, Commander of the faithful, in order to express his honor and eminence." And masters of the Arabic language use the plural form for an individual to show respect. Allama al-Zamakshari in his Tafsir al-Kashshaf, has mentioned another nice point which is as follows: If you inquire how this plural word is applicable to Ali, may Allah be gracious to him, who is an individual, I shall say that though this verse is about Ali, an individual, the plural form is used in order to presuade others to act similarly and to give alms as readily as Ali did. There is also an implied instruction that the faithful should keep themselves always on the look out for occasions of acts of sympathy, benevolence and charity to the poor and the needy, and readily do the needful without waiting till the completion of even so important a duty as saying a prayer.

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p649 Please refer to the Part II of the article of Ghadir Khum for further argument in this regard.

And for the last time give me a Hadith where the prophet said " Ali you are a Spiritual leader."

brother your Excuses really make no sense at All.

In addtion to did not answer my Question, your saying his a Spiritual leader when you have no proof.

Can you please give me proof that the prophet Said " Abu bakr you are a Political leader of this Ummah.

Your the one who's escaping the Argument, because in all your statements have no proof and no foundation or even a source.

Second of All, your Claiming you have answered the Question, but you haven't since no proof was even provided for your statement.

Third of All this is not a Debate. Why? because a Debate is when ones opinion becomes Respected and valued in Contrast to the opposition,

But you have to evaluated any of my stance.

1) The Prophet, hence, has made them equal only to the Glorious Book and set them models of conduct for those endowed with reason, and the ark of safety when hypocricy with its tumultous waves overwhelms the security of the nation, safeguarding it against dissension if the tempests of division rage, the Gate of Salvation: whoever enters it is forgiven, and the strong Rope of Allah which is unbreakable.

2) The Commander of the Faithful is quoted in sermon 86 inNahjul­Balagha as saying:

"`Where are you heading (Qur'an, 81:26),' and `where are you straying (Qur'an, 6:95, 10:34, 35:3, 40:62),' since the flags are poised up high, the Signs are clear, and the light­house is erected? So, where are you straying? Nay! How can you be blindfolded while you have among you the household (`itra) of your Prophet? They are the reins of righteousness, the religion's flags, and the tongues of truth; therefore, accord them as you accord the Qur'an and approach them as thirsty camels approach the water. O people! Take this from the last of the Prophets, Allah's peace be upon him and his progeny: `whoever among us passes away, he is not really dead, and whoever disintegrates (after dying) from among us does not really disintegrate; therefore, do not say what you do not know, for there is the greatest truth in what you deny. Accept the argument of one against whom you have no argument and it is: `Have I not dealt with you according to the Greatest Weight(Qur'an)? Have I not left among you the Lesser Weight (Ahl al­Bayt) and laid firm among you the flags of faith?'"

He, peace be upon him, said, in sermon 96 of Nahjul­Balagha, "Behold the Household of your Prophet; emulate their example and follow in their footsteps, for they shall never take you out of guidance, nor shall they ever bring you back into destruction; halt when they halt, and rise when they rise, and do not go ahead of them lest you should stray, nor should you lag behind them lest you should perish." He, peace be upon him, has mentioned them once, as stated in sermon 237 of Nahjul-Balaghah, saying: "They are the life of knowledge and the death of ignorance; their forbearance informs you of their knowledge, and their outward appearance informs you of their conscience. Their silence indicates the wisdom of their speech. They neither differ from truth, nor do they differ among themselves about it. They are the pillars of Islam and the gateways to salvation. Through them, justice was achieved and wrong­doing was removed, and its tongue was uprooted. They comprehended the creed with care and concern, not like hearing and reporting, for the `reporters' of knowledge are many indeed, but those who safeguard it are few." He, peace be upon him, as stated in sermon 153 in Nahjul-Balaghah, has also said, "His offspring (`itra) is the best, and his family is the best. His tree is the best of trees: it was planted in the sacred place (Haram), and it grew like a vine; it has long branches and its fruit is not unattainable."

He, peace be upon him, is quoted in sermon 153 of Nahjul-Balaghah saying: "We are the banner, the companions, the trustees and the gates. Houses are not supposed to be approached except through their gates: whoever approaches them otherwise is called a thief," until he said, describing the purified offspring (`itra), "They are the vital portions of the Qur'an, and they are the teasures of the Merciful. They tell the truth when they speak, or when they remain silent; none can speak ahead of them. Therefore, let the forerunner speak the truth to his people, maintaining his reason."

He has said in sermon 146 of Nahjul-Balaghah: "You should know that you will never know guidance unless you know who abandons it, nor will you abide by the Book (Qur'an) unless you know who contradicts it, and you will never uphold it unless you know who has discarded it; so, seek that from those who possess it, for they are the life of knowledge and the death of ignorance. They are the ones whose judgment informs you of their knowledge, their silence of their power of speech, their outer appearance of their inner selves; they neither violate the religion, nor do they differ among themselves about it, while it is among them a truthful witness and a silent speaker."

There are many similarly impressive statements of his, peace be upon him, in this regard; consider this one which is excerpted from sermon 4 in Nahjul-Balaghah: "Through us you received guidance in the darkness, ascending the zenith of nobility, and through us you reached the light and dissipated the gloomy night. May the ears that do not listen to the summoner be deafened." He is quoted in sermon 104 of Nahjul-Balaghahsaying: "O people! Secure your light from the flame of the lamps of a preacher who follows what he preaches, and drink from a spring cleansed from impurity."

He has also said the following in sermon 108: "We are the tree of Prophethood, the place of the Message, the ones to whom the angels make a pilgrimage, the treasures of knowledge, the springs of wisdom. Our supporter and lover awaits the mercy, while our enemy or antagonist us awaits the wrath."

Among what he has said in this regard is sermon 143 ofNahjul-Balaghah wherein he says: "Where are those who claimed to be deeply versed in knowledge other than our own selves? (See also Qur'an, 3:7 and 4:162). It is a lie and a transgression against us, for Allah has raised us high while putting them down; He bestowed upon us while depriving them, and He permitted us to enter (in the fortress of knowledge) while turning them out. Through us, guidance is achieved and blindness is removed. Surely the Imams from Quraysh have been planted in Hashim's loins. Imamate can never fit anyone else, nor can government either." Then he stated: "But they preferred a speedy gain to a later one, forsaking a pure well to drink from an impure one," up to the end of his statement. He has also said at the conclusion of khutba (sermon) 189 ofNahjul-Balaghahh: "Whoever among you dies on his bed knowing the rights of his Lord and knowing the rights of His Messenger and his family (Ahl al­Bayt) dies as a martyr, and his reward will be incumbent upon Allah, and he deserves the reward of what good deeds he has intended to do: his own intention will make up for his use of his sword (in jihad)."

Also, he, peace be upon him, has said: "We are the virtuous; our descendants are the descendants of Prophets; our party is the party of Allah, the Sublime, the Glorified, while the transgressing party is the devil's; whoever equates us with our enemy is certainly not of us."

Imam al­Mujtaba Abu Muhammad al­Hasan, the patient, master of the youths of Paradise (as), has said the following in one of his sermons: "Fear Allah regarding us, for we are your rulers."

3) Whenever Imam Abu Muhammad, `Ali son of al­Husayn Zainul­`Abidin, master of those who prostrate in prayer, used to recite this verse of the Almighty: "O ye who believe! Fear Allah and be with the Truthful," he would make a lengthy invocation to Allah containing his plea to be included among "the Truthful" to attain the high ranks. He would then count the calamities and innovations of the group that split from the Imams of Faith and the Tree of Prophethood. Then he would say: "Some people went as far as underestimating us, making excuses for the Qur'anic verses which seem to them to be alike, giving their own interpretation thereof, and casting doubts about the transmitted narrarations in our honour," until he would say: "With whom shall people in this nation seek refuge, since the pillars of this creed have been forgotten and the nation has divided upon itself with dissension, each party accusing the other of kufr, while Allah says: `Do not be like those who became divided and disagreed (with each other) even after receiving the Clear Evidences (Qur'an, 3:104)?' Who can be trusted to convey the Divine proofs and interpret the Judgment other than the peers of the Qur'an and the descendants of the Imams of Guidance, the lamps amidst the darkness, those whom Allah made as His Arguments against His servants? He has never left His creation alone without a Proof. Do you know them or find them except from the branches of the Blessed Tree, the remnant of the Elite from whom Allah has removed all impurity, purifying them with a perfect purification, clearing them from sinning and decreeing their love in His Book?"

That was his own speech, peace be upon him, verbatim.Look into it and into our quotations from the speech of the Commander of the Faithful; you will find them both representing the Shi`a School of Muslim Thought in this regard very clearly. Consider this much of their speech as a specimen for all such speeches of the Imams from Ahl al­Bayt. They all are unanimous in this respect, and our sahih books quoting them aremutawatir (consecutively reported), and peace be with you.

So we see in verse 3:7

Yusuf Ali

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

And whats your point that no names were given? you make no sense, When Allah mentions "Prophet" in the Quran, Which Prophet does he mean? We would alread know its Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), your argument is illogical because if your saying that ulma have and can know the FULL Hidden meanings. then your saying they have the same knowledge as Allah. Your Basically saying any one who can educate him self in Islam has the power to Know what Allah has made "hidden", knows. This is Considered as given a normal human beings the same position of the prophet (istaghfrallah), therefore anyone can know the hidden meanings. Brother When you make sense make a Descent reply please.

"firmly rooted in knowledge"? No one can be Firmly rooted or be from the "Absolute" knowledge accept those who are appointed by Allah prophets/Imams.

Again brother please make sense.

Statement:

Have I been talking to myself for the past two weeks??

Depends on how your perception works, Whether on Logical thinking or Ignorance.

(salam)

__________________________________

Assalamu alaykum

1. Don't understand what you've written in your reply

2. No I'm lot blind actually are you??

YOU SAID

every Nation must have a guide and Ali is the guide

MY ANSWER

I've answered this in my long reply in the thread "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs". Refute me there.

3.

YOU SAID

Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar are political leaders?

MY ANSWER

why would the prophet (pbuh) say they are political leaders?? This would go against shura and would rather be a dictatorship.

4.

YOU SAID

And Ali is just a Spiritual leader?

MY ANSWER

Go to "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs". Refute me there I've answered this there in that long reply.

5.

YOU SAID

You Misunderstand, you cannot interpret the verse by your self,

MY ANSWER

This has also been covered in the long reply in the thread "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs".

I find it rather funny how you keep accusing me of making my "own assumption" when you are guilty of this yourself in your long reply in "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs".

The answer I give you are answers given by our "deeply rooted in knowledge", whereas your answers are copy and pasted from websites like shiapen, al islam. Do you trust google that much?? Go to the thread sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs and you will see how your copy and paste gas been dismantled by me.

I tell ya.... If shiapen and al islam are your "deeply rooted in knowledge" then may Allah (swt) help them and you for following them because they're not hard to refute.

Also I find it rather amusing how you've tried to sneak back to the original questions when we both agreed that we will not move forward

Until you open the thread regarding prophets (a.s) and minor mistakes.

Also since you've now started quoting from nahj ul balagah bring the proof of each sermon's authencity otherwise I will start using nahj ul balagah as a proof against you and you then will not like it

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Statement:

I've answered this in my long reply in the thread "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs". Refute me there.

 

Good Comeback? I think the Subject here differs from the one on the previous Post? Please Answer.

 

 

Statement:

why would the prophet  (pbuh) say they are political leaders?? This would go against shura and would rather be a dictatorship.

 

Contradicting your self? It is already a Dictatorship, Look back at page 10-9/8-7,
Not the Whole Ummah voted, Why must you lie? And The most Faithful Sahabas stayed with Imam Ali (as)

As I mentioned their names Earlier. In addition, Please point out to me Where Shura in the Quran is Done to Appoint a Khalifa please.

 

 

 

Statments:

Go to "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs". Refute me there I've answered this there in that long reply

 

In short, If Muwaiah and Yazid are considered To be one of the Twelve (according to the Sunnah) So here we find that this is Pathetic and illogical. Why? because Yazid (LA) killed the Grandson of the prophet (pbuh) Who is the true Caliph, And Muwaiyah fought against Imam Ali (as) Who is according to you is a Spiritual leader (Which By the way makes no sense.), So How can One Khalifa Fight another? If Imam Ali (as) and Muawaiyah are on the same list? Thus, We find your list of the 12 Is Illogical. And if Imam Ali (As) is Considered as one of the Khailfas, than howcan he give Ba'ya to Aby bakr? So you cannot say his Khalifa. Brother no need to use Excuses.       

 

 

 

 

Statement:
 

I tell ya.... If shiapen and al islam are your "deeply rooted in knowledge" then may Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì help them and you for following them because they're not hard to refute.
 
I Read before I assure that something is correct, thus your Excuses here are of no sense. I advise you to go through some of them, as I have did:

http://en.shiapen.com/

http://www.al-islam.org/
 
 



Also I find it rather amusing how you've tried to sneak back to the original questions when we both agreed that we will not move forward 
Until you open the thread regarding prophets (a.s) and minor mistakes.
 
I will Inshalla make the thread, no need to claim false on me, and no I am not "Sneaking back" as you Claim, I replied to the following,
Because your brought the Subject on other threads. 

Also since you've now started quoting from nahj ul balagah bring the proof of each sermon's authencity otherwise I will start using nahj ul balagah as a proof against you and you then will not like it 
 
I can Debate on this Issue. No problem :)

I can refute your Claims and give you the Chain of narrations and the ones what are considered weak & strong. No problem. 

_____________


(salam)

 

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The title of this thread is " Did the Prophet (pbuh) appoint a successor ". Well the Ahle Sunnah say he didn't. Why??? Because he didn't seen it was necessary, since Islam was completed. But Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) seemed it was necessary to appoint a successor and he did. Also Hazrath Umar (ra) took care of this matter, of who was going to govern after him, since he seemed it was very important. But the Prophet (pbuh) didn't. How strange!

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Statement:

I've answered this in my long reply in the thread "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs". Refute me there.

Good Comeback? I think the Subject here differs from the one on the previous Post? Please Answer.

Statement:

why would the prophet (pbuh) say they are political leaders?? This would go against shura and would rather be a dictatorship.

Contradicting your self? It is already a Dictatorship, Look back at page 10-9/8-7,

Not the Whole Ummah voted, Why must you lie? And The most Faithful Sahabas stayed with Imam Ali (as)

As I mentioned their names Earlier. In addition, Please point out to me Where Shura in the Quran is Done to Appoint a Khalifa please.

Statments:

Go to "Sunni hadiths for names of 12 caliphs". Refute me there I've answered this there in that long reply

In short, If Muwaiah and Yazid are considered To be one of the Twelve (according to the Sunnah) So here we find that this is Pathetic and illogical. Why? because Yazid (LA) killed the Grandson of the prophet (pbuh) Who is the true Caliph, And Muwaiyah fought against Imam Ali (as) Who is according to you is a Spiritual leader (Which By the way makes no sense.), So How can One Khalifa Fight another? If Imam Ali (as) and Muawaiyah are on the same list? Thus, We find your list of the 12 Is Illogical. And if Imam Ali (As) is Considered as one of the Khailfas, than howcan he give Ba'ya to Aby bakr? So you cannot say his Khalifa. Brother no need to use Excuses.

Statement:

I tell ya.... If shiapen and al islam are your "deeply rooted in knowledge" then may Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì help them and you for following them because they're not hard to refute.

I Read before I assure that something is correct, thus your Excuses here are of no sense. I advise you to go through some of them, as I have did:

http://en.shiapen.com/

http://www.al-islam.org/

http://www.shiadefencecenter.org/eng/

Also I find it rather amusing how you've tried to sneak back to the original questions when we both agreed that we will not move forward

Until you open the thread regarding prophets (a.s) and minor mistakes.

I will Inshalla make the thread, no need to claim false on me, and no I am not "Sneaking back" as you Claim, I replied to the following,

Because your brought the Subject on other threads.

Also since you've now started quoting from nahj ul balagah bring the proof of each sermon's authencity otherwise I will start using nahj ul balagah as a proof against you and you then will not like it

I can Debate on this Issue. No problem :)

I can refute your Claims and give you the Chain of narrations and the ones what are considered weak & strong. No problem.

_____________

(salam)

Assalamu alaykum

1. YOU SAID

Contradicting your self? It is already a Dictatorship, Look back at page 10-9/8-7,

Not the Whole Ummah voted

MY ANSWER

No I'm not contradicting myself. Yea saqifa was wrong no doubt even umar r.a admits this in bukhari but ultimately the person appointed was a good decision. The method was wrong but the decision was right. Since when does the "whole ummah " have to vote?? We're not your average American or European!!

Shura means that the top leaders choose a leader or they all swear allegiance to the one who has been chosen.

Please don't confuse sunni shura with American and European democracy.

Tell me one thing how does the supreme leader in Iran get elected??

Is it a mass vote or only the top scholars choose??

American and European democracy is un islamic please don't get confused by the two.

2. YOU SAID

And The most Faithful Sahabas stayed with Imam Ali

MY ANSWER

When you say stayed with ali a.s what do you exactly mean? They never swore allegiance? Well that's rubbish since imam ali a.s himself swore allegiance which is itself questionable to his "infallibility" and imam hasan swore allegiance to Muawwiyah r.a

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQrqlNncieM

3. YOU SAID

In short, If Muwaiah and Yazid are considered To be one of the Twelve (according to the Sunnah)

Muawwiyah r.a yes yazid l.a no.

Why don't you ask imam hasan a.s why he swore allegiance to him.

4. YOU SAID

So here we find that this is Pathetic and illogical

MY ANSWER

So it's pathetic to swear allegiance to abu bakr and Muawwiyah??

Told hold your imams in very high regard do you??

As for yazid l.a you're confusing me with the AHLE hadith zakir naik and crew we SUNNIS don't believe his none sense. We call him zakir nalaik

5. YOU SAID

And if Imam Ali is Considered as one of the Khailfas, than howcan he give Ba'ya to Aby bakr?

MY ANSWER

Go and ask ali a.s and hasan a.s why they swore allegiance you're talking to the wrong guy.

6. YOU SAID

I Read before I assure that something is correct, thus your Excuses here are of no sense. I advise you to go through some of them, as I have did:

MY ANSWER

Yeeeeaa... Course you do.

7. YOU SAID

Because your brought the Subject on other threads.

MY ANSWER

The deal was me and you would get back to those questions once you open the thread and those questions were for other users brothers.

The title of this thread is " Did the Prophet (pbuh) appoint a successor ". Well the Ahle Sunnah say he didn't. Why??? Because he didn't seen it was necessary, since Islam was completed. But Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) seemed it was necessary to appoint a successor and he did. Also Hazrath Umar (ra) took care of this matter, of who was going to govern after him, since he seemed it was very important. But the Prophet (pbuh) didn't. How strange!

You're right the prophet (pbuh) did not appoint successor BUT he did hint at who we should make the caliph. I've got authentic hadiths to back my claim from bukhari and Muslim.

After abu bakr r.a umar r.a was the best for the job which was also hinted out in bukhari and so on.

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(salam)

(bismillah)
 
 
Statement:
No I'm not contradicting myself. Yea saqifa was wrong no doubt even umar r.a admits this in bukhari but ultimately the person appointed was a good decision. The method was wrong but the decision was right. Since when does the "whole ummah " have to vote?? We're not your average American or European!! Shura means that the top leaders choose a leader or they all swear allegiance to the one who has been chosen.  Please don't confuse sunni shura with American and European democracy. Tell me one thing how does the supreme leader in Iran get elected?? Is it a mass vote or only the top scholars choose??
 

Statement:

When you say stayed with ali a.s what do you exactly mean? They never swore allegiance? Well that's rubbish since imam ali a.s himself swore allegiance which is itself questionable to his "infallibility" and imam hasan swore allegiance to Muawwiyah r.a

 

You put Forward a video of "Al aro'or," Who is one of the most rejected people among the Muslims, Do you really listen to this man?

whats more Ironic he puts forward no Evidences? and I Will reject him Below in the following. And by the Way I can post video what Reject Everything he says, But I don't think you want to watch them, since you never even read half of my Replies.

The Method Was wrong? but the Decision was right? Does that even make sense?, First of All, No, not the Top so called "Sahabas" voted as you claim. They in-fact stayed with Imam Ali (s) and did not pledge Allegiance, because they Already knew that the prophet (s) appointed Imam Ali (s) as the Imam of the Ummah and I can prove this from many Authentications from your books, as if I did in the previous posts. Third of All you still have not proven Shura in the Quran where it appoints an Imam for the people, whats more Ironic you know its the Wrong Method, So how can the outcome of it be right? It go against logical Reasoning. Have you read the Posts I posted on Saqifa? First of All Umar Took the right of the prophet (s) To write his own will. Can you please tell me why? I will tell you why, because he know that he was going to write a statement to assure that Imam Ali (S) is the Khalifa after him, whats more Ironic Umar Insults the prophet at his death bed we read:

“On Thursday he (the Holy Prophet) determined to write a will. But, Umar said: ‘What is wrong with him, is he delirious?’ Umar had doubts if that statement (of the Holy Prophet) was a rave due to illness, or was a regular statement. Thus Umar feared that the Holy Prophet might have been raving due to fever”.

 
فلما كان يوم الخميس هم أن يكتب كتابا فقال عمر ماله أهجر فشك عمر هل هذا القول من هجر الحمي أو هو مما يقول على عادته فخاف عمر أن يكون من هجر الحمى
 
-Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 6 page 202:
-Also In Bukhair I presume
 
Points to note down
__________________

(1) Umar had Doubted in the prophet (s), Can you please tell me
How you can doubt in the prophet (s) that has been Doing miracles

All his life? Is this what you call a faithful Sahabah?,

(2) He stopped the prophet From writing his own will. (He Basically

Went against the actions of the prophet (s), what the prophet wanted
to do, which we all agree that what the prophet (s) does, he does only
by the commandment of Allah only, therefore Umar went against the 
Orders of Allah.

(3) calling the prophet
 delirious? The prophet (s) has been Poisoned 
Certain amount of times, and Ironically Umar calls him 
 delirious, Before
His Death?. 
 
 
 
 
We later on than As I mentioned Earlier we read: and Some of you claim that the fact that Umar had personal receipt about a meeting the Ansar were involved in. This was not general information available to all the Sahaba; this was information given privately to Umar:
 
“It is related by Omar that as they were seated in the Prophet’s house a man cried out all of a sudden from outside: ‘O son of Khattab (Omar” pray step out for a moment’. Omar told him to leave them alone and go away as they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet. The man replied that an incident had occurred i.e., the Ansar were gathering in force in the Thaqifah Bani Sa’idah and, as the situation was grave, it was necessary that he (Omar) should go and look in to the matter lest the Ansar should do something which would lead to a war. On this Omar said to Abu Bakr, ‘Let us go’.

Al Faruq, by Allamah Shibli Numani, Volume 1 pages 86-87
 
The Recent  Sunni scholar Dr Rahim in his simplified analysis of history writes:
 
“Being informed of the proceedings of the Ansars, Abu Bakr Umar and Abu Ubaidah hastened to the meeting place and were there just in time to interrupt the finalization of the Ansars choice of Sa’d ibn Ubaidah to the successorship of the Prophet. Ali was at that time busy in preparing the coffin of the Prophet, and did not know anything about the meeting of the Ansars to elect a successor”.
 
 
 

A Short history of Islam, by Dr Rahim, page 57, printed Ishaquia Press,
 
They set out to go to the Saqifa on the way we read that Abu Ubaydah joins them 1. He did not leave with them from the Prophet (saaws)’s residence so we presume that he must have met them at a specific place. On route two companions whom Hadhrath Umar recounts as “pious fellows” 2 seek to discourage them from proceeding further. They reject the plea and make their way to the Saqifa.

1. The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 188,
2. The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 192, 
 
 
Now I want to ask a very Important Question:
Allah (swt) sent 124,000 Prophet’s to guide mankind. Is there any proof that on the deaths of any one of these Prophet’s his companions failed to attend his funeral preferring to participate in the selection of his successor? If no such precedent exists then why did the Prophet (saaws)’s companions follow this approach?

“the Sahaba viewed the appointment of the Imam as so important that they preferred it to attending the Prophet’s funeral” – taken from Sharh Fiqa Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, p 175.
 
______________________________________________________
 
 
The meeting at Saqifa was a gathering of the Ansar, Abu Bakr, Hadhrath Umar and Abu Ubaydah were the only members of the Muhajireen who attended the meeting 1. Upon arrival at the Saqifa one of the Ansar stood up and began to extol the virtues of the Ansar 2. Upon hearing this:
 
"Umar said: When I saw that they wanted to cut us from our root and wrest authority from us, I wanted to make a speech, which I had composed in my mind. As I used to treat Abu Bakr with gentle courtesy to some extent and considered him more sober and gentler than me I conferred with him about the speech. When I wanted to speak he said gently so I did not like to disobey him...He said 'Now then: O men of the Ansar, you deserve all the fine qualities that you have mentioned about yourselves, but the Quraysh, for they represent the best in lineage and standing. I am pleased to offer you one of these two men; render your oath of allegiance to any one of them you like. Thus saying he took hold of my hand and that of Abu Ubaydah b. al-Jarrah".

The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193, 
 
Continue on....
 
 
al-Tabari then adds a further segment of the speech of Abu Bakr to the Ansar, under footnote 1343:
"Baladhuri, Ansab 1, 582, cites the speech of Abu Bakr which shows how he argued against the Ansar. He states: "We are the first people to accept Islam. We are in the Center among the Muslims with respect to our position, and we are the noblest with respect to our lineage, and we are the nearest to the Messenger of God in relationship. You are our brethren in Islam and our partners in religion...The Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraysh...You had not better compete with your Muhajirun brethren for what God has decreed for them".

The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193, 
 
 
In addition to this we can see Abu Bakr lying. First of All the first one to accept Islam Was Imam Ali (as) and all Muslims agree on this We read:
 
Also Khateeb al-Baghdadi, in his book quotes Imam Ali that:
 
Ali said: "I was the first one to accept Islam at the hands of the Holy Prophet."

  • Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v4, p333

In ways that not the case, but just wanted to add that to the Cake.
 
In extolling the virtues of the Muhajireen, Abu Bakr also said that they were:
 
"the first on earth to worship Allah and were the patrons and the clan of the Prophet who tolerated and suffered with him and adversities and injuries inflicted upon them by their own folk who disbelieved them and all other people opposed them and alienated them".

Tarikh al Tabari Vol 3, p 219 quoted from 'On the political system of the Islamic State' , page 30
 
Halabi further expands on Abu Bakrs' words:
 
"We are the relatives of the Apostle...and therefore we are the people who are entitled to the caliphate...It will be advisable to have the leadership among us and for you to be the Viziers".

Sirah, by al Halabi,Volume 3 page 357
 
 
While Abu Bakr had put forward the names of Umar and Abu Ubaydah as his choice of successors, they declined, this is what their reply was, as is quoted by the Sunni historian Yaqubi:
 
"By God we cannot give preference over you while you are the companion of the Messenger of God and the second of the two [in the cave at the time of the Hijrah]“. Abu Ubaydah put his hand on Abu Bakr’s hand and Umar did the same [in ratifying the bargain]. The Meccans who were with them did the same. Then Abu Ubaydah cried “O people of the Ansar, you were the first to help [the Prophet] so do not be the first to change and convert back to paganism”. Next Abd al-Rahman b. Awf stood up and said, ‘O people of the Ansar, although you do not have among you [anyone] like Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali’. [Thereupon] Mundhir b. al-Aqram stood up saying, ‘We do not deny the merits of those you have mentioned. Indeed there is among you a person with whom if he seeks authority, none will dispute [i.e. Ali]“.

Tarikh, by al Yaqubi, Volume 2 page 113-114, quoted from History of Tabari, Volume 9, p 193 – 194
What happens next is a proposed compromise by Hubab i.e. that there be two Khalifa, one from the Ansar the other from the Quraysh 1 Umar immediately rejected the proposal:

History of Tabari, English translation, Volume 9 p 194
 
“How preposterous! Two swords cannot be accommodated in one sheath. By God the Arabs will never accept your rule since their Prophet is not from you, but they will not reject the rule of one from whom is their Prophet. If anyone refuses our authority, we will [produce] a clear rebuttal and an evident proof. Who would dispute us with regard to Muhammad’s authority and rule except the falsely guided one, or the erring one, or the one damned when we are his close associates and kinsfolk”.

History of Tabari, English translation, p 194 see footnote 1347 quoted Tabari Vol 1 p 1841
 
 
the Whole issue of Saqifa is built on Falsehood, First of all the prophet (pbuh) never gave the orders for such a fasle So called "Democracy", Second of All they Did no let him Write his Own Will, Third of all they lied. And They did not attend the Burial of the Prophet (S). Why would you need to make a non-needed Meeting, when every one knows that Imam Ali (as) is the successor? Why all these lies.
 
 
__________________________

 
You need to understand that not All the Sahabah gave Ba'ya to Abu Bakr, You will find that the Most faithful of Companions of the prophet (s) knew that Imam Ali (s) is the successor and the Rightful for the position of Khilafa, when people ask how did shia Start, The question is simple, We started When we swore that Imam Ali (s) is the successor on Ghadir Khum, So we followed the prophet.
 
We read in Tahdeeb al-Kamal, Volume 20 page 480:
 

روي عن سلمان وأبي ذر والمقداد وخباب وجابر وأبي سعيد الخدري وزيد بن أرقم رضي الله عنهم أن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه أول من أسلم وفضله هؤلاء على غيره

 

 Salman, Abu Zarr, Miqdad, Khubab, Jabir, Abi Saeed Khudri and Zaid bin Arqam (may Allah be pleased with them all) have narrated that Ali is the first Muslim and all these people used to give seperiority to Ali over others.
 
 
We read in Tarikh Ibn Khaldun, Volume 2 page 17:
 


 

 أن جماعة من الصحابة كانوا يتشيعون لعلى ويرون استحقاقه على غيره

A group amongst the Sahaba were the Shias of Ali and they used to give preference to Ali over others.
 
We read in Al-Tafsir wal Mufasaron, Volume 2 page 5:
 
“Nay there were among the Sahaba who loved Ali and believed that Ali is better than the other Sahaba and he is more deserving to be the Caliph such as Ammar bin Yasir, al-Miqdad bin al-Aswad, Abu Dhar, Salman al-Faresi, Jaber bin Abdullah and many others”

Al-Tafsir wal Mufasaron, Volume 2 page 5 
 
In addition:
 
Abu Zuhra states in Al-Shafiye, page 93:
 
It should be kept in mind that it is not just Shias who believe Ali being greatest of all the Sahaba rather in past era, Sahaba also held this view such as Ammar bin Yasir, Miqdaad bin Aswad, Abu Zarr Ghaffari, Salman Farsi, Jabir bin Abdullah, Ubai bin Kkaab, Huzaifa, Buraida, Abu Ayub, Sahal bin Haneef, Uthman bin Haneef, Abu Hathem, Khuzaima bin Thabit, Abu Tufayl, Aamir bin Wathila, Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib, and their son and others from Bani Hashim; in the begining Zubair also held this view, but changed his opinion later; even in Bani Umayya there were people who held this view like Khalid bin Saeed bin Aas and Umar bin abdul Aziz.



Why did they stay with Ali (s)? Why did they not give Baya to Abu Bakr? because They Knew who was the Khalifa. Very simple. And May Allah be pleased with them.


 
List of Sahabah that did not give Bay'ah to Abu Bakr
 
 
The Sunni  historian Al-Yaqubi mentions in Tarikh al-Yaqubi,
 
"A numbers of migrants and the helpers refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, inclined as they were to favor Ali ibn AbuTalib. Al Abbas bin Abd al-Muttalib, Al-Fadi bin Al-Abbas, Al Zuhayr, Khalid bin Said, Al Miqdad, Salman Al Farsi, Abu Zar Ghaffari, Ammar ibn Yasir, Al-Bara'a, Ubayy bin Ka'b were part of this group". 
 
Tarikh al-Yaqubi 2. p. 114.
 
 
Also from the Muhajerin:
 
Banu Asad
 
Zubayr ibn al-Awwam
 
In  al-Bukhari, "Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr.
 
Lets not forget The Daughter of the prophet (s) did not give Allegiance/ B'aya to Abu bakr:
 
Syeda Fatima al-Zahra
 
al-Bukhari  narrates: 
 
"'So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself." 
 
 
Can you not see? He not only made Fatima (s) angry but he has made the prophet (s) angry as well, Why? Well we read in Bukhari also:
 
Volume 5 Hadeeth 61

:
“Allah’s Apostle said, “Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”

 

 

Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib also did not give ba'ya

 

Ibn Qutaybah, slamic scholar narrates that Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib had told Abu Bakr that "If you demanded what you demanded through kinship to the Messenger of Allah, then you had confiscated our own. If you had demanded it due to your position among Muslims, then ours is a more prestigious than yours. If this affair is accomplished when the believers are pleased with it, then it cannot be so as long as we are displeased therewith."

 

 

Yaqubi,  narrates "A group of Muhajirs and Ansars kept themselves aloof from allegiance to Abu Bakr and were followers of Hazrat Ali [as]. Among them were Abbas Bin Abdul-Muttalib...Fadl ibn Abbasi"

 

Muhammad al-Bukhari, narrates the same as Yaqubi also.

 

 

Fadl ibn Abbas did not give Ba'ya also

 

Also the tribe of bani Hashim Did not give B'aya:

 

A man asked al-Zuhri, “Did Ali not give his oath of allegiance for six months?” “No, nor anyone of the Banu Hashim until Ali rendered his.”

 

(quoting from Ibn Qutaybah,,MassudiIbn Abu al-Hadid)

 

 

__________________________



And please don't give me that Ridiculous saying, where Abu Bakr is the Closest to the prophet (s) Its Ironic when it comes to the supposed tradition that suggest Abu Bakr and his daughter were the dearest to Rasulullah (s) we have Ayesha’s own testimony that Ali (s) and Fatima (s) were the dearest and have proved this in chapter four.

 

 

 I can counter this by citing the testimony of Imam Ali (s):

 

وعن ابن عباس أن عليا كان يقول في حياة رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : إن الله عز و جل يقول : { أفإن مات أو قتل انقلبتم على أعقابكم } والله لا ننقلب على أعقابنا بعد إذ هدانا الله تعالى والله لئن مات أو قتل لأقاتلن على ما قاتل عليه حتى أموت والله إني لأخوه ووليه وابن عمه ووارثه فمن أحق به مني

 

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Ali would to say during the lifetime of Holy Prophet (s): ‘Allah (swt) says “If he (Muhammad) dies or is killed, will you turn on your heels?”. By Allah, we will never turn on our heels after Allah (swt) has guided us. If he dies or is killed, I will fight for what he fought for until I die. By Allah, I am his brother, successor (wali), cousin and heir (warith). And who is more entitled to him than me?’

 

Majma al-Zawaid, Volume 9 page 134  

 

 

_________________

 

No Doubt Imam Ali (s) was Superior To Abu Bakr, Such a suggestion that Abu Bakr was most superior is illogical and false, let me present the  Hadeeth of the Prophet (s), allow us to cite one tradition about Ali bin Abi Talib (s) that is sufficient to delate such an assertion, by citing a tradition from the mouth of one he refers to as the First Lady of Islam, Ayesha in Yanabi al Mawaddah page 290:

 

 

Ata narrates: ‘I asked Ayesha about Ali. She replied: ‘He is the best of men; no one denies this except a Kaafir’’.

 

The same text has also been narrated from Hudhayfa, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Imam Ali (s) himself on the same page. Other Sunni scholars have also recorded this from the blessed lips of our Prophet (s); here is a list of where it can be located:

  1. Tareekh Damishq Volume 2 page 942, by Ibn Asakir
  2. Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, page 193
  3. Min Hadith Khaithema bin Sulaiman page by Khaithema bin Sulaiman Al-Qusashi
  4. Kunuz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, Volume 2 page 15, the letter Ayn
  5. Faraid al Simtayn, Volume 1 page 154 Chapter 31
  6. Kifayath al Muttalib Volume 9 page 245
  7. Muwaddatul Qurba page 30
  8. Kanz ul Ummal, Hadith 33046

 _____________________________________

 

 

Also brother when Umar Knew that the prophet (s) died, he went outside saying that he did not die, So Abu bakr can get there in time for Saqifa:

“The women, however, were still beating their faces and crying at Muhammad’s house, a sure sign that Muhammad had really died. Yet, here in the Mosque Umar was still proclaiming Muhammad had not died”

 

 The life of Muhammad, by H. Haykal, p 505 (6th edition)

 

It is therefore right for us to ask, why did Umar opine that the Prophet (saaws) was super-human and could never die? This was a considerable departure from his attitude just days early when the Prophet (saaws) had asked for writing materials. On this occasion the same Umar had equated the Prophet (saaws)’s position to that of an ordinary man suffering from pain, to the extent that Umar felt that his request should be refused because he was not in the right frame of mind? Why the sudden change in attitude?

 



Also Umar's direct threats towards those present in the house of Fatima (s) proves that the threat he was not just from ten men

 

The onus is on Ibn al Hashimi to prove that there were only ten people involved!  What we are saying is the true adherents of Rasulullah (s) were gathered around the house of Rasulullah (s) in mourning, supporting the true successor of Ali (s) at Saqifa.  They certainly were not a handful, there was a number significant enough to attract the ire of Umar following the death of Rasulullah (s).  We read in Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045:

 

“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’

 

So when Umar left, they (Ali and Zubair) came , so she (Fatima) said to them: ‘Do you know that Umar came here and swear by Allah to burn the house if you gather here, I swear by God that he (Umar) will execute his oath, so please leave wisely and take a decision and don't gather here again.’ So they left her and didn't gather there till they give baya to Abu Bakr.”

 

All the narrators are authentic as they are the narrators of Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim. Muhammad bin Bashir: Imam Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326).Aslam al-Qurashi (the slave of Umar): Al-Dhahabi said: 'Faqih, Imam' (Siar alam alnubala, v4 p98), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said:‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p88).

 

A group defined by Umar as "these people" was clearly of a significant number to cause Umar so much concern that he was prepared to have these dissenting voices burnt to death!  If these individuals were opposing the Saqifa decision and were supporters of Ali (s) these were the same persons that had stood with Ali (s) during the washing process.

 

 

 

 

So please don't claim that they did not burn the house of Fatima, please stop Ignoring what has been Written from truthful events .

______________________________________________________________________
 

 

Wow are you claiming that Imam Hassan (s) gave Ba'ya to Muwaiyah? are you Serious? First of all it was not Ba'ya it was simply a peace treaty, because of the Killings of Muwaiyah against the Followers Of Ahlul-bayt (s). Do you read? First of All On the issue of Imam Hasan (s) allegedly giving ba’ya we should point out that ba’ya has two meanings “to make a contract” and“to pledge allegiance” see Hans Wehr’s Arabic – English Dictionary page 86. The fact that agreement between the two sides was written on a peace of paper clearly alludes to the fact that a contractual agreement had been drawn up. Imam Hasan (s) was offering his Leadership in return for the conditions that he had placed. With Mu’awiyah’s signature the baya was concluded, i.e. the contract was finalised and agreed between the two sides. ba’ya as in exchange, now if Imam Hasan (s) was giving his ba’ya as in pledge, then why do Ahl’ul Sunnah not regard Mu’awiya as a rightly guided khalifa as well? After all as Clarke in his translation of Suyuti’s ‘The Khalifas who took the right way’ on page 9 admits:

 

“I have continued beyond the first four khulafa to include Hasan ibn ‘Ali because as Suyuti saw him as the fifth of the khulafa”.

 

It is clear that the bayya was an agreement surrounding the peace treaty, nothing more. So either put forward some proof, or non and just do your Research.

 

 

Funny how Sunni's Assume that Peace means bay'a???

 

  1. al Bidaya wa al Nihaya, Volume 8 page 18 Dhikr Hasan
  2. al Istiab, Volume 1 page 115
  3. Tahdeeb al Tahdeeb, Volume 2 page 259
  4. Matalib al Seul, Volume 2 page 26
  5. Tadhkirathul Khawwas al Ummah, page 113 Dhikr Hasan
  6. Murujh al Dhahab, Volume 3 page 8 Dhikr Hasan
  7. Aqd al Farid, Volume 2 page 244
  8. Asaf al Ra’ghbain, page 167 Dhikr Hasan
  9. Nur al Absar, page 120 Dhikr Hasan
  10. Dakhayr al Uqba, page 140 Dhikr Hasan
  11. al Maarif, page 92, Dhikr Imam Hasan
  12. Maqatil Husayn, page 134
  13. Nazal al Abrar, page 82 Dhikr Hasan by Allamah Badkashani al-Harithi
  14. Sawaiqh al Muhriqa, Volume 2 page 399
  15. al Fusl al Muhimma, page 163
  16. Tarikh Baghdadi, page 178, Dhikr Qaya ibn Sa’d
  17. Akhbar al Tawal, page 118 Dhikr Hasan
  18. Minhaaj al Sunnah, Volume 1 page 560

Ibn Katheer states in Al Bidaya:

 

۔۔۔فصالحه‏۔۔۔ وهو في ذلك هو البار الراشد الممدوح
 

“Verily Hasan made peace with Mu’awiya , and this peace is a praise worthy act”

 

Ibn Hajar Makki stated in his anti-Shia book Sawaiqh al Muhriqa:

 

ولما تصالحا كتب به الحسن كتابا لمعاوية صورته
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم هذا ما صالح عليه الحسن بن علي رضي الله عنهما معاوية بن أبي سفيان
 

When they made peace treaty, Hassan wrote a message to Mu’awyia the content of which was:

‘In the name of Allah the beneficent the merciful, this is what Hassan son of Ali made peace on with Mu’awyia son of Abi Sufyan’

Allamah Ibn Abdul Barr records in al Istiab:

 

عن الشعبي قال لما جرى الصلح بين الحسن بن علي ومعاوية
 

“Shaybi narrates when Hasan and Mu’awiya made peace treaty..”

 

Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Tahdeeb al Tahdeeb stated:

 

“Peace treay took place between Muawiyah and Hasan in 41 Hijri during the month of Rabi al-Awwal”

 

Imam of Salafies Ibn Tamiyah while explaining a hadith stated:

 

والخبر الثاني اجتماع الناس لما اصطلح الحسن ومعاوية لكن كان صلحا على دخن
 

“The second news is about the people who gathered when al-Hassan and Mu’awiya made treaty, but the treaty was based on malice”

 

I appeal to justice. Imam Hasan made peace with Mu’awiya but the nation of Muawiyah gave it the colour of an allegiance (bayah) and they did this propaganda to the extent that some historians while admiting it as a peace treaty gave it the touch of bayah also. The scholars have recorded the fact that peace was made between the parties. It is not necessary that you recognise the legitimacy and right to rule of one that you make peace with, otherwise we will have to believe that the Prophet (s) believed in the legitimacy of the Makkan Kuffar when making peace with them. At the time of the peace, Mu’awiya was not on the path of truth. Efforts to present this peace treaty as evidence that bayya was given and Mu’awiya was right is utmost stupidity on the part of Mu’awiya’s followers. 

 

 

 

Second of All   Mu’awiya’s not considering the death of Imam Hasan (s) as a calamity and the Sunni Ulema’s acknowledgement that this demonstrated his hatred towards the family of’Ali (s)

 

We read in Sunan Abu Daud Book 32, hadith Number 4119:

Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’dikarib:

 

“Khalid said: Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’dikarib and a man of Banu Asad from the people of Qinnisrin went to Mu’awiyah ibn AbuSufyan.

 

Mu’awiyah said to al-Miqdam: Do you know that al-Hasan ibn Ali has died? Al-Miqdam recited the Qur’anic verse “We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return.”

A man asked him: Do you think it a calamity? He replied: Why should I not consider it a calamity when it is a fact that the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) used to take him on his lap, saying: This belongs to me and Husayn belongs to Ali?

 

The man of Banu Asad said: (He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished. Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike. He then said: Mu’awiyah, if I speak the truth, declare me true, and if I tell a lie, declare me false.

 

Allamah Shams ul Haq Azeem Abadi in his famed commentary on Sunan Abu Dawood commonly known as ‘Awn-ul-Mabood’ revealed the following about “a man” mentioned in the cited tradition of Sunan Abu Dawood. Allamah Shams ul Haq records:

 

 

فقال له فلان ) وفي بعض النسخ وقع رجل مكان فلان والمراد بفلان هو معاوية بن أبي سفيان رضي الله تعالى عنه والمؤلف لم يصرح باسمه وهذا دأبه في مثل ذلك وقد أخرج أحمد في مسنده من طريق حيوة بن شريح حدثنا بقية حدثنا بحير بن سعد عن خالد بن معدان قال وفد المقدام بن معد يكرب وفيه فقال له معاوية أيراها مصيبة الحديث
( أتعدها ) وفي بعض النسخ أتراها أي أنعد يا أيها المقدام حادثة موت الحسن رضي الله تعالى عنه مصيبة والعجب كل العجب من معاوية فإنه ما عرف قدر أهل البيت حتى قال ما قال فإن موت الحسن بن علي رضي الله عنه من أعظم المصائب وجزى الله المقدام ورضي عنه فإنه ما سكت عن تكلم الحق حتى أظهره وهكذا شأن المؤمن الكامل المخلص
 

“…Fa Qaala Lahu Fulan…”(And so-and-so said to him)

In some texts, the word “Rajul”(a man) occurs in the place of “Fulan”(so-and-so), and what is intended by “Fulan”is Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. The author (i.e. Imam Abu Dawood) did not let it be known, as this was his practise. Ahmad (ibn Hanbal) has reported in his Musnad through Haiwah ibn Shareeh, Baqiyyah, Baheer ibn Sa’d, from Khalid ibn Ma’dan who said: “And Muawiyah asked him whether he thought it was a calamity…”(the rest of the above hadeeth).
“…A-Ta’adaha…”(Do you consider this…?)

In some texts it is “A-Taraaha”(Do you see this…?), that is to consider. This means:’Do you regard, oh Miqdam, this event of the death of Al-Hasan as a calamity?’ Astonishment upon astonishment to Muawiyah. Surely he never recognised the status of the Ahlul-Bait, (Muawiyah) saying what he said. For surely the death of Al-Hasan ibn Ali (RA) is the greatest of tragedies. May Allah reward Miqdam, and may He be pleased with him, for he did not stay silent from speaking the truth, until he proclaimed it. And this is the sign of a genuine and pious believer.

Awn al Mabood Sharah Sunan Abu Dawood, Volume 11 page 127

 

Late Salafi scholar Maulana Waheed uz Zaman Khan Hyderabadi in his commentary of this Hadeeth said:

 

“Muawiyah’s saying about the death of Imam Hassan (ra) that it was not a calamity was based on biasness against Ali and his progeny. May Allah keep us along with AhleBait on the day of judgement, and may Allah we are raised with them. Amin”

Sunan Abu Dawood, Volume 3 page 273 Hadith 731 

 

Despite this, some of the Nawasib are still blind when it comes to the behaviour of Mu’awiya.

 

 Hanafi scholar Allamah Khalil Ahmad Chisti in his book Maula aur Mu’awiya citing Tayseer al Bari Sharh Bukhari states that it was actually Mu’awiya who said “He (Hasan) was a live coal which Allah has extinguished”.

 

Another Deobandi Hanafi scholar Malik Ghulam ‘Ali in his book “Khiafaat aur Mulukiyat par Aitrazaat ka Tajziya” [Analysis of criticism of the book Khilafat aur Mulukiyat] page 338 cites Waheed uz Zaman’s text Tayseer al-Bari in his discussion of this episode that:

“Ameer Mu’awiya’s heart was not pure with regards to the Ahl’ul bayt”.

 

Malik Ghulam Ali also in “Khiafaat aur Mulukiyat par Aitrazaat ka Tajziya” page 340 quoting further comments from ‘Awn Maboodh Sharh Sunan Abu Daud’ said as follows:

 

“Maulana Sham al Haqq Haqqani stated, Mu’awiya failed to recognised the esteemed station that had been afforded to the Ahl’ul bayt, he said such a thing at a time when Imam Hasan had died, this was a major tragedy and Miqdam recited the couplets of truth at that tragic time, he did not remain silent, and this is the sign of a pious momin. The comments of the man from the Asad tribe were said so as to please Mu’awiya. He went close to Mu’awiya and said ‘(He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished’. Such strong and obnoxious language was said before Mu’awiya (as with Hasan present he felt that some aspects of reign were in danger)”.

 

We agree with this assertion this was said by this Nasibi to please Mu’awiya. Notice how Mu’awiya at no point reprimands the individual for such a disgraceful comment. If this is not proof within itself that Mu’awiya supported this view, notice the comment of:

Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike.

 

He then proceeds some faults that he noticed in Mu’awiya. The man from Asad’s failure to ask permission BEFORE he slandered Imam Hasan (s) in the prsesence of Mu’awiya is clear proof that he was fully aware that such a comment would not offend Mu’awiya.

 

In this day and age these supporters of Mu’awiya seek to incite hatred against the Shi’a for they disrespect the Sahaba. We should point out to these Nasibis that their Imam Mu’awiya would disrespect the family of Rasulullah (s) and that insults about Imam Hasan (s) were said in his presence so as to please him.

Hanafi scholar Maulana Sultan Mahmood in his footnote of the Urdu translation of Sunan Abu Daud Voulme 3 page 273 states:

 

“Mu’awiya did not consider Imam Hasan’s martyrdom as a sad matter, this was on account of his animosity towards ‘Ali and his family”.

Sunan Abu Daud Voul. 3 page 273

 

 

 

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Sahih al-Bukhari confirms that Imam Ali refused to give his allegiance to Abu Bakr for six months. He gave his allegiance to Abu Bakr only after the martyrdom of his wife Fatimah al-Zahra, Daughter of the Holy Prophet, six month after the departure of Prophet. (see Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English
version, Tradition 5.546).

After the death of Prophet (s), for forty days, Ali (S) was contacting the well-known people at night, reminding them the instructions of prophet about his right to Caliphate, asking them to join him to get the power. But non responded except Abu Dhar, Miqdad, and Salman al-Farsi and some more. The Prophet had already instructed Ali that if the number of his followers at that upheaval exceeds 40 men, he should take the action otherwise he should keep silent since the only remaining pious people would be killed without being able to help Islam. Ali (s) was not afraid of being killed, and he kept silent only to keep the faded lawn of Islam
alive. After he was sure that there would no success in his revolting, he kept silent. During his silence, he indeed started cooperating with the first 2 Caliphs as consultant and did his best to decrease the damage as much as possible. If he had not done so, Islam would have been destroyed completely. Imam Ali said: "I tolerated those periods as if there was a thorn in my eye and a sharp bone stuck in my throat." (Nahjul Balagha, the sayings of Imam Ali).

Islam was very young at that time (only 23 years old!) and division among Muslims could have totally removed Islam from the surface of the earth. So
he kept silent, as Haroon (Aaron) kept silent to prevent division:

(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going wrong?"... (Aaron said:) "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my word!'" (Quran 20:92-94).

Abu Sufyan was one of those who wanted to destroy the young Islam by encouraging Ali to revolt when he was sure that Ali will have no success due to small number of his followers. But the revolt of Ali would at least cause the civil war and the destruction of Islam. al-Tabari reported:

When people gathered to give their oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Abu Sufyan came while saying, "By God, I see a cloud of smoke which nothing but blood will clear. O family of Abd Manaf! Who is Abu Bakr that he should be the master of your affairs? Where are Ali and al-Abbas, the two oppressed ones?" He then said (to Ali): "O Abul Hasan! stretch your hand so that I give you the oath of allegiance."... Ali rebuked him, saying: "By God, you do not intend anything but (to stir up) Fitnah (dissension). For long you have desired evil for Islam. We do not need your advice."

Sunni reference: History of al-Tabari, English version, v9, p199

As we quoted the tradition of al-Bukhari earlier, the Prophet confirmed that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslims. In fact Quran has mentioned the stories of the Children of Israel to give us away to understand the true history of Islam itself. There are many other striking similarities in this regard written in Quran. Please see the artcle of "The Twelve Imams (Part II)" for the Quranic verses in this regard.

 

 

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Considering Sayed Ali Al Khamenei Please read the Concept of Wilayt al Faqih:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shiapoliticalthought/3.htm


Second of All Saqifa as I proved was only between a few people, and not even the Whole of Sahabah was there ( as proved above in the first statement reply), When we come to an Islamic Country, There must be a Faqih to manage the affairs of the Ummah, Don't forget the Whole of Iran and its people wanted and elected the sayed Al Khomenei as the first Faqih, and than later on to Sayed Ali Al Khamenei. The Difference here is that the Whole nation of Iran Chose this, So when you compare it to Saqifa? there is not Significance to what your trying to pin point out of this Agreement, Third of All Sayed Ali Al Khamenei Does not have the Full right to manage every single affair of the nation of Iran, he only manages to what benefits the Nation and his Religion which is Islam. Thats why They vote for a President who manages the Political issues, such as before Ahmad Dinjad, and now we have Shiekh Hassan Rohani (Al Hamdoellah). And last of All when we talk about an "Imam" We are talking about the Imam of this Whole World, and I mean the Imam of every being on this earth, which they must obey, and even with Sayed Al Khamenei and Khoemenei they them selves believe in the Imam Mahdi (A.F).

____________________________

Considering the Twelve Khalifas I was not Quoting from Zaikr Naik, Why did you bring him into the argument? I was Quoting from your Sources as we speak:
 

  1. Abu Bakr
  2. Umar
  3. Uthman
  4. Ali
  5. Mu’awiya
  6. Yazid
  7. Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  8. Walid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  9. Sulayman bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  10. Umar bin Abdul Aziz
  11. Yazid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  12. Hasham bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

 

Sharh Fiqa Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, page 73

 

        

 

 

Again I ask you, How can A Khalifa ( Muwaoyah ) fight a Khalifa (Imam Ali (s), and How can Khalifa (muwaiyah ) put his Son Yazid In His own Throne And kill the Son ( Imam Hussain (s) ) of the Khalifa Imam Ali (s)? Second of All they are all from Quraish. 


Can you please give me the correct names of the 12 Imams?

 

 

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Statement:

No I'm not contradicting myself. Yea saqifa was wrong no doubt even umar r.a admits this in bukhari but ultimately the person appointed was a good decision. The method was wrong but the decision was right. Since when does the "whole ummah " have to vote?? We're not your average American or European!! Shura means that the top leaders choose a leader or they all swear allegiance to the one who has been chosen. Please don't confuse sunni shura with American and European democracy. Tell me one thing how does the supreme leader in Iran get elected?? Is it a mass vote or only the top scholars choose??

Statement:

When you say stayed with ali a.s what do you exactly mean? They never swore allegiance? Well that's rubbish since imam ali a.s himself swore allegiance which is itself questionable to his "infallibility" and imam hasan swore allegiance to Muawwiyah r.a

You put Forward a video of "Al aro'or," Who is one of the most rejected people among the Muslims, Do you really listen to this man?

whats more Ironic he puts forward no Evidences? and I Will reject him Below in the following. And by the Way I can post video what Reject Everything he says, But I don't think you want to watch them, since you never even read half of my Replies.

The Method Was wrong? but the Decision was right? Does that even make sense?, First of All, No, not the Top so called "Sahabas" voted as you claim. They in-fact stayed with Imam Ali (s) and did not pledge Allegiance, because they Already knew that the prophet (s) appointed Imam Ali (s) as the Imam of the Ummah and I can prove this from many Authentications from your books, as if I did in the previous posts. Third of All you still have not proven Shura in the Quran where it appoints an Imam for the people, whats more Ironic you know its the Wrong Method, So how can the outcome of it be right? It go against logical Reasoning. Have you read the Posts I posted on Saqifa? First of All Umar Took the right of the prophet (s) To write his own will. Can you please tell me why? I will tell you why, because he know that he was going to write a statement to assure that Imam Ali (S) is the Khalifa after him, whats more Ironic Umar Insults the prophet at his death bed we read:

“On Thursday he (the Holy Prophet) determined to write a will. But, Umar said: ‘What is wrong with him, is he delirious?’ Umar had doubts if that statement (of the Holy Prophet) was a rave due to illness, or was a regular statement. Thus Umar feared that the Holy Prophet might have been raving due to fever”.

فلما كان يوم الخميس هم أن يكتب كتابا فقال عمر ماله أهجر فشك عمر هل هذا القول من هجر الحمي أو هو مما يقول على عادته فخاف عمر أن يكون من هجر الحمى

-Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 6 page 202:

-Also In Bukhair I presume

Points to note down

__________________

(1) Umar had Doubted in the prophet (s), Can you please tell me

How you can doubt in the prophet (s) that has been Doing miracles

All his life? Is this what you call a faithful Sahabah?,

(2) He stopped the prophet From writing his own will. (He Basically

Went against the actions of the prophet (s), what the prophet wanted

to do, which we all agree that what the prophet (s) does, he does only

by the commandment of Allah only, therefore Umar went against the

Orders of Allah.

(3) calling the prophet delirious? The prophet (s) has been Poisoned

Certain amount of times, and Ironically Umar calls him delirious, Before

His Death?.

We later on than As I mentioned Earlier we read: and Some of you claim that the fact that Umar had personal receipt about a meeting the Ansar were involved in. This was not general information available to all the Sahaba; this was information given privately to Umar:

“It is related by Omar that as they were seated in the Prophet’s house a man cried out all of a sudden from outside: ‘O son of Khattab (Omar” pray step out for a moment’. Omar told him to leave them alone and go away as they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet. The man replied that an incident had occurred i.e., the Ansar were gathering in force in the Thaqifah Bani Sa’idah and, as the situation was grave, it was necessary that he (Omar) should go and look in to the matter lest the Ansar should do something which would lead to a war. On this Omar said to Abu Bakr, ‘Let us go’.

Al Faruq, by Allamah Shibli Numani, Volume 1 pages 86-87

The Recent Sunni scholar Dr Rahim in his simplified analysis of history writes:

“Being informed of the proceedings of the Ansars, Abu Bakr Umar and Abu Ubaidah hastened to the meeting place and were there just in time to interrupt the finalization of the Ansars choice of Sa’d ibn Ubaidah to the successorship of the Prophet. Ali was at that time busy in preparing the coffin of the Prophet, and did not know anything about the meeting of the Ansars to elect a successor”.

A Short history of Islam, by Dr Rahim, page 57, printed Ishaquia Press,

They set out to go to the Saqifa on the way we read that Abu Ubaydah joins them 1. He did not leave with them from the Prophet (saaws)’s residence so we presume that he must have met them at a specific place. On route two companions whom Hadhrath Umar recounts as “pious fellows” 2 seek to discourage them from proceeding further. They reject the plea and make their way to the Saqifa.

1. The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 188,

2. The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 192,

Now I want to ask a very Important Question:

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì sent 124,000 Prophet’s to guide mankind. Is there any proof that on the deaths of any one of these Prophet’s his companions failed to attend his funeral preferring to participate in the selection of his successor? If no such precedent exists then why did the Prophet (saaws)’s companions follow this approach?

“the Sahaba viewed the appointment of the Imam as so important that they preferred it to attending the Prophet’s funeral” – taken from Sharh Fiqa Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, p 175.

______________________________________________________

The meeting at Saqifa was a gathering of the Ansar, Abu Bakr, Hadhrath Umar and Abu Ubaydah were the only members of the Muhajireen who attended the meeting 1. Upon arrival at the Saqifa one of the Ansar stood up and began to extol the virtues of the Ansar 2. Upon hearing this:

"Umar said: When I saw that they wanted to cut us from our root and wrest authority from us, I wanted to make a speech, which I had composed in my mind. As I used to treat Abu Bakr with gentle courtesy to some extent and considered him more sober and gentler than me I conferred with him about the speech. When I wanted to speak he said gently so I did not like to disobey him...He said 'Now then: O men of the Ansar, you deserve all the fine qualities that you have mentioned about yourselves, but the Quraysh, for they represent the best in lineage and standing. I am pleased to offer you one of these two men; render your oath of allegiance to any one of them you like. Thus saying he took hold of my hand and that of Abu Ubaydah b. al-Jarrah".

The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193,

Continue on....

al-Tabari then adds a further segment of the speech of Abu Bakr to the Ansar, under footnote 1343:

"Baladhuri, Ansab 1, 582, cites the speech of Abu Bakr which shows how he argued against the Ansar. He states: "We are the first people to accept Islam. We are in the Center among the Muslims with respect to our position, and we are the noblest with respect to our lineage, and we are the nearest to the Messenger of God in relationship. You are our brethren in Islam and our partners in religion...The Arabs will not submit themselves except to this clan of Quraysh...You had not better compete with your Muhajirun brethren for what God has decreed for them".

The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 193,

In addition to this we can see Abu Bakr lying. First of All the first one to accept Islam Was Imam Ali (as) and all Muslims agree on this We read:

Also Khateeb al-Baghdadi, in his book quotes Imam Ali that:

Ali said: "I was the first one to accept Islam at the hands of the Holy Prophet."

  • Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v4, p333
In ways that not the case, but just wanted to add that to the Cake.

In extolling the virtues of the Muhajireen, Abu Bakr also said that they were:

"the first on earth to worship Allah and were the patrons and the clan of the Prophet who tolerated and suffered with him and adversities and injuries inflicted upon them by their own folk who disbelieved them and all other people opposed them and alienated them".

Tarikh al Tabari Vol 3, p 219 quoted from 'On the political system of the Islamic State' , page 30

Halabi further expands on Abu Bakrs' words:

"We are the relatives of the Apostle...and therefore we are the people who are entitled to the caliphate...It will be advisable to have the leadership among us and for you to be the Viziers".

Sirah, by al Halabi,Volume 3 page 357

While Abu Bakr had put forward the names of Umar and Abu Ubaydah as his choice of successors, they declined, this is what their reply was, as is quoted by the Sunni historian Yaqubi:

"By God we cannot give preference over you while you are the companion of the Messenger of God and the second of the two [in the cave at the time of the Hijrah]“. Abu Ubaydah put his hand on Abu Bakr’s hand and Umar did the same [in ratifying the bargain]. The Meccans who were with them did the same. Then Abu Ubaydah cried “O people of the Ansar, you were the first to help [the Prophet] so do not be the first to change and convert back to paganism”. Next Abd al-Rahman b. Awf stood up and said, ‘O people of the Ansar, although you do not have among you [anyone] like Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali’. [Thereupon] Mundhir b. al-Aqram stood up saying, ‘We do not deny the merits of those you have mentioned. Indeed there is among you a person with whom if he seeks authority, none will dispute [i.e. Ali]“.

Tarikh, by al Yaqubi, Volume 2 page 113-114, quoted from History of Tabari, Volume 9, p 193 – 194

What happens next is a proposed compromise by Hubab i.e. that there be two Khalifa, one from the Ansar the other from the Quraysh 1 Umar immediately rejected the proposal:

History of Tabari, English translation, Volume 9 p 194

“How preposterous! Two swords cannot be accommodated in one sheath. By God the Arabs will never accept your rule since their Prophet is not from you, but they will not reject the rule of one from whom is their Prophet. If anyone refuses our authority, we will [produce] a clear rebuttal and an evident proof. Who would dispute us with regard to Muhammad’s authority and rule except the falsely guided one, or the erring one, or the one damned when we are his close associates and kinsfolk”.

History of Tabari, English translation, p 194 see footnote 1347 quoted Tabari Vol 1 p 1841

the Whole issue of Saqifa is built on Falsehood, First of all the prophet (pbuh) never gave the orders for such a fasle So called "Democracy", Second of All they Did no let him Write his Own Will, Third of all they lied. And They did not attend the Burial of the Prophet (S). Why would you need to make a non-needed Meeting, when every one knows that Imam Ali (as) is the successor? Why all these lies.

__________________________

You need to understand that not All the Sahabah gave Ba'ya to Abu Bakr, You will find that the Most faithful of Companions of the prophet (s) knew that Imam Ali (s) is the successor and the Rightful for the position of Khilafa, when people ask how did shia Start, The question is simple, We started When we swore that Imam Ali (s) is the successor on Ghadir Khum, So we followed the prophet.

We read in Tahdeeb al-Kamal, Volume 20 page 480:

روي عن سلمان وأبي ذر والمقداد وخباب وجابر وأبي سعيد الخدري وزيد بن أرقم رضي الله عنهم أن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه أول من أسلم وفضله هؤلاء على غيره

Salman, Abu Zarr, Miqdad, Khubab, Jabir, Abi Saeed Khudri and Zaid bin Arqam (may Allah be pleased with them all) have narrated that Ali is the first Muslim and all these people used to give seperiority to Ali over others.

We read in Tarikh Ibn Khaldun, Volume 2 page 17:

أن جماعة من الصحابة كانوا يتشيعون لعلى ويرون استحقاقه على غيره

A group amongst the Sahaba were the Shias of Ali and they used to give preference to Ali over others.

We read in Al-Tafsir wal Mufasaron, Volume 2 page 5:

“Nay there were among the Sahaba who loved Ali and believed that Ali is better than the other Sahaba and he is more deserving to be the Caliph such as Ammar bin Yasir, al-Miqdad bin al-Aswad, Abu Dhar, Salman al-Faresi, Jaber bin Abdullah and many others”

Al-Tafsir wal Mufasaron, Volume 2 page 5

In addition:

Abu Zuhra states in Al-Shafiye, page 93:

It should be kept in mind that it is not just Shias who believe Ali being greatest of all the Sahaba rather in past era, Sahaba also held this view such as Ammar bin Yasir, Miqdaad bin Aswad, Abu Zarr Ghaffari, Salman Farsi, Jabir bin Abdullah, Ubai bin Kkaab, Huzaifa, Buraida, Abu Ayub, Sahal bin Haneef, Uthman bin Haneef, Abu Hathem, Khuzaima bin Thabit, Abu Tufayl, Aamir bin Wathila, Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib, and their son and others from Bani Hashim; in the begining Zubair also held this view, but changed his opinion later; even in Bani Umayya there were people who held this view like Khalid bin Saeed bin Aas and Umar bin abdul Aziz.

Why did they stay with Ali (s)? Why did they not give Baya to Abu Bakr? because They Knew who was the Khalifa. Very simple. And May Allah be pleased with them.

List of Sahabah that did not give Bay'ah to Abu Bakr

The Sunni historian Al-Yaqubi mentions in Tarikh al-Yaqubi,

"A numbers of migrants and the helpers refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, inclined as they were to favor Ali ibn AbuTalib. Al Abbas bin Abd al-Muttalib, Al-Fadi bin Al-Abbas, Al Zuhayr, Khalid bin Said, Al Miqdad, Salman Al Farsi, Abu Zar Ghaffari, Ammar ibn Yasir, Al-Bara'a, Ubayy bin Ka'b were part of this group".

Tarikh al-Yaqubi 2. p. 114.

Also from the Muhajerin:

Banu Asad

Zubayr ibn al-Awwam

In al-Bukhari, "Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr.

Lets not forget The Daughter of the prophet (s) did not give Allegiance/ B'aya to Abu bakr:

Syeda Fatima al-Zahra

al-Bukhari narrates:

"'So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself."

Can you not see? He not only made Fatima (s) angry but he has made the prophet (s) angry as well, Why? Well we read in Bukhari also:

Volume 5 Hadeeth 61

:

“Allah’s Apostle said, “Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”

Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib also did not give ba'ya

Ibn Qutaybah, slamic scholar narrates that Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib had told Abu Bakr that "If you demanded what you demanded through kinship to the Messenger of Allah, then you had confiscated our own. If you had demanded it due to your position among Muslims, then ours is a more prestigious than yours. If this affair is accomplished when the believers are pleased with it, then it cannot be so as long as we are displeased therewith."

Yaqubi, narrates "A group of Muhajirs and Ansars kept themselves aloof from allegiance to Abu Bakr and were followers of Hazrat Ali [as]. Among them were Abbas Bin Abdul-Muttalib...Fadl ibn Abbasi"

Muhammad al-Bukhari, narrates the same as Yaqubi also.

Fadl ibn Abbas did not give Ba'ya also

Also the tribe of bani Hashim Did not give B'aya:

A man asked al-Zuhri, “Did Ali not give his oath of allegiance for six months?” “No, nor anyone of the Banu Hashim until Ali rendered his.”

(quoting from Ibn Qutaybah,,Massudi, Ibn Abu al-Hadid)

__________________________

And please don't give me that Ridiculous saying, where Abu Bakr is the Closest to the prophet (s) Its Ironic when it comes to the supposed tradition that suggest Abu Bakr and his daughter were the dearest to Rasulullah (s) we have Ayesha’s own testimony that Ali (s) and Fatima (s) were the dearest and have proved this in chapter four.

I can counter this by citing the testimony of Imam Ali (s):

وعن ابن عباس أن عليا كان يقول في حياة رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : إن الله عز و جل يقول : { أفإن مات أو قتل انقلبتم على أعقابكم } والله لا ننقلب على أعقابنا بعد إذ هدانا الله تعالى والله لئن مات أو قتل لأقاتلن على ما قاتل عليه حتى أموت والله إني لأخوه ووليه وابن عمه ووارثه فمن أحق به مني

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Ali would to say during the lifetime of Holy Prophet (s): ‘Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says “If he (Muhammad) dies or is killed, will you turn on your heels?”. By Allah, we will never turn on our heels after Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has guided us. If he dies or is killed, I will fight for what he fought for until I die. By Allah, I am his brother, successor (wali), cousin and heir (warith). And who is more entitled to him than me?’

Majma al-Zawaid, Volume 9 page 134

_________________

No Doubt Imam Ali (s) was Superior To Abu Bakr, Such a suggestion that Abu Bakr was most superior is illogical and false, let me present the Hadeeth of the Prophet (s), allow us to cite one tradition about Ali bin Abi Talib (s) that is sufficient to delate such an assertion, by citing a tradition from the mouth of one he refers to as the First Lady of Islam, Ayesha in Yanabi al Mawaddah page 290:

Ata narrates: ‘I asked Ayesha about Ali. She replied: ‘He is the best of men; no one denies this except a Kaafir’’.

The same text has also been narrated from Hudhayfa, Jabir ibn Abdullah and Imam Ali (s) himself on the same page. Other Sunni scholars have also recorded this from the blessed lips of our Prophet (s); here is a list of where it can be located:

  • Tareekh Damishq Volume 2 page 942, by Ibn Asakir
  • Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v3, page 193
  • Min Hadith Khaithema bin Sulaiman page by Khaithema bin Sulaiman Al-Qusashi
  • Kunuz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, Volume 2 page 15, the letter Ayn
  • Faraid al Simtayn, Volume 1 page 154 Chapter 31
  • Kifayath al Muttalib Volume 9 page 245
  • Muwaddatul Qurba page 30
  • Kanz ul Ummal, Hadith 33046
_____________________________________

Also brother when Umar Knew that the prophet (s) died, he went outside saying that he did not die, So Abu bakr can get there in time for Saqifa:

“The women, however, were still beating their faces and crying at Muhammad’s house, a sure sign that Muhammad had really died. Yet, here in the Mosque Umar was still proclaiming Muhammad had not died”

The life of Muhammad, by H. Haykal, p 505 (6th edition)

It is therefore right for us to ask, why did Umar opine that the Prophet (saaws) was super-human and could never die? This was a considerable departure from his attitude just days early when the Prophet (saaws) had asked for writing materials. On this occasion the same Umar had equated the Prophet (saaws)’s position to that of an ordinary man suffering from pain, to the extent that Umar felt that his request should be refused because he was not in the right frame of mind? Why the sudden change in attitude?

Also Umar's direct threats towards those present in the house of Fatima (s) proves that the threat he was not just from ten men

The onus is on Ibn al Hashimi to prove that there were only ten people involved! What we are saying is the true adherents of Rasulullah (s) were gathered around the house of Rasulullah (s) in mourning, supporting the true successor of Ali (s) at Saqifa. They certainly were not a handful, there was a number significant enough to attract the ire of Umar following the death of Rasulullah (s). We read in Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045:

“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’

So when Umar left, they (Ali and Zubair) came , so she (Fatima) said to them: ‘Do you know that Umar came here and swear by Allah to burn the house if you gather here, I swear by God that he (Umar) will execute his oath, so please leave wisely and take a decision and don't gather here again.’ So they left her and didn't gather there till they give baya to Abu Bakr.”

All the narrators are authentic as they are the narrators of Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim. Muhammad bin Bashir: Imam Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326).Aslam al-Qurashi (the slave of Umar): Al-Dhahabi said: 'Faqih, Imam' (Siar alam alnubala, v4 p98), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said:‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p88).

A group defined by Umar as "these people" was clearly of a significant number to cause Umar so much concern that he was prepared to have these dissenting voices burnt to death! If these individuals were opposing the Saqifa decision and were supporters of Ali (s) these were the same persons that had stood with Ali (s) during the washing process.

So please don't claim that they did not burn the house of Fatima, please stop Ignoring what has been Written from truthful events .

______________________________________________________________________

Wow are you claiming that Imam Hassan (s) gave Ba'ya to Muwaiyah? are you Serious? First of all it was not Ba'ya it was simply a peace treaty, because of the Killings of Muwaiyah against the Followers Of Ahlul-bayt (s). Do you read? First of All On the issue of Imam Hasan (s) allegedly giving ba’ya we should point out that ba’ya has two meanings “to make a contract” and“to pledge allegiance” see Hans Wehr’s Arabic – English Dictionary page 86. The fact that agreement between the two sides was written on a peace of paper clearly alludes to the fact that a contractual agreement had been drawn up. Imam Hasan (s) was offering his Leadership in return for the conditions that he had placed. With Mu’awiyah’s signature the baya was concluded, i.e. the contract was finalised and agreed between the two sides. ba’ya as in exchange, now if Imam Hasan (s) was giving his ba’ya as in pledge, then why do Ahl’ul Sunnah not regard Mu’awiya as a rightly guided khalifa as well? After all as Clarke in his translation of Suyuti’s ‘The Khalifas who took the right way’ on page 9 admits:

“I have continued beyond the first four khulafa to include Hasan ibn ‘Ali because as Suyuti saw him as the fifth of the khulafa”.

It is clear that the bayya was an agreement surrounding the peace treaty, nothing more. So either put forward some proof, or non and just do your Research.

Funny how Sunni's Assume that Peace means bay'a???

  • al Bidaya wa al Nihaya, Volume 8 page 18 Dhikr Hasan
  • al Istiab, Volume 1 page 115
  • Tahdeeb al Tahdeeb, Volume 2 page 259
  • Matalib al Seul, Volume 2 page 26
  • Tadhkirathul Khawwas al Ummah, page 113 Dhikr Hasan
  • Murujh al Dhahab, Volume 3 page 8 Dhikr Hasan
  • Aqd al Farid, Volume 2 page 244
  • Asaf al Ra’ghbain, page 167 Dhikr Hasan
  • Nur al Absar, page 120 Dhikr Hasan
  • Dakhayr al Uqba, page 140 Dhikr Hasan
  • al Maarif, page 92, Dhikr Imam Hasan
  • Maqatil Husayn, page 134
  • Nazal al Abrar, page 82 Dhikr Hasan by Allamah Badkashani al-Harithi
  • Sawaiqh al Muhriqa, Volume 2 page 399
  • al Fusl al Muhimma, page 163
  • Tarikh Baghdadi, page 178, Dhikr Qaya ibn Sa’d
  • Akhbar al Tawal, page 118 Dhikr Hasan
  • Minhaaj al Sunnah, Volume 1 page 560
Ibn Katheer states in Al Bidaya:

۔۔۔فصالحه‏۔۔۔ وهو في ذلك هو البار الراشد الممدوح

“Verily Hasan made peace with Mu’awiya , and this peace is a praise worthy act”

Ibn Hajar Makki stated in his anti-Shia book Sawaiqh al Muhriqa:

ولما تصالحا كتب به الحسن كتابا لمعاوية صورته

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم هذا ما صالح عليه الحسن بن علي رضي الله عنهما معاوية بن أبي سفيان

When they made peace treaty, Hassan wrote a message to Mu’awyia the content of which was:

‘In the name of Allah the beneficent the merciful, this is what Hassan son of Ali made peace on with Mu’awyia son of Abi Sufyan’

Allamah Ibn Abdul Barr records in al Istiab:

عن الشعبي قال لما جرى الصلح بين الحسن بن علي ومعاوية

“Shaybi narrates when Hasan and Mu’awiya made peace treaty..”

Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Tahdeeb al Tahdeeb stated:

“Peace treay took place between Muawiyah and Hasan in 41 Hijri during the month of Rabi al-Awwal”

Imam of Salafies Ibn Tamiyah while explaining a hadith stated:

والخبر الثاني اجتماع الناس لما اصطلح الحسن ومعاوية لكن كان صلحا على دخن

“The second news is about the people who gathered when al-Hassan and Mu’awiya made treaty, but the treaty was based on malice”

I appeal to justice. Imam Hasan made peace with Mu’awiya but the nation of Muawiyah gave it the colour of an allegiance (bayah) and they did this propaganda to the extent that some historians while admiting it as a peace treaty gave it the touch of bayah also. The scholars have recorded the fact that peace was made between the parties. It is not necessary that you recognise the legitimacy and right to rule of one that you make peace with, otherwise we will have to believe that the Prophet (s) believed in the legitimacy of the Makkan Kuffar when making peace with them. At the time of the peace, Mu’awiya was not on the path of truth. Efforts to present this peace treaty as evidence that bayya was given and Mu’awiya was right is utmost stupidity on the part of Mu’awiya’s followers.

Second of All Mu’awiya’s not considering the death of Imam Hasan (s) as a calamity and the Sunni Ulema’s acknowledgement that this demonstrated his hatred towards the family of’Ali (s)

We read in Sunan Abu Daud Book 32, hadith Number 4119:

Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’dikarib:

“Khalid said: Al-Miqdam ibn Ma’dikarib and a man of Banu Asad from the people of Qinnisrin went to Mu’awiyah ibn AbuSufyan.

Mu’awiyah said to al-Miqdam: Do you know that al-Hasan ibn Ali has died? Al-Miqdam recited the Qur’anic verse “We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return.”

A man asked him: Do you think it a calamity? He replied: Why should I not consider it a calamity when it is a fact that the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) used to take him on his lap, saying: This belongs to me and Husayn belongs to Ali?

The man of Banu Asad said: (He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished. Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike. He then said: Mu’awiyah, if I speak the truth, declare me true, and if I tell a lie, declare me false.

Allamah Shams ul Haq Azeem Abadi in his famed commentary on Sunan Abu Dawood commonly known as ‘Awn-ul-Mabood’ revealed the following about “a man” mentioned in the cited tradition of Sunan Abu Dawood. Allamah Shams ul Haq records:

فقال له فلان ) وفي بعض النسخ وقع رجل مكان فلان والمراد بفلان هو معاوية بن أبي سفيان رضي الله تعالى عنه والمؤلف لم يصرح باسمه وهذا دأبه في مثل ذلك وقد أخرج أحمد في مسنده من طريق حيوة بن شريح حدثنا بقية حدثنا بحير بن سعد عن خالد بن معدان قال وفد المقدام بن معد يكرب وفيه فقال له معاوية أيراها مصيبة الحديث

( أتعدها ) وفي بعض النسخ أتراها أي أنعد يا أيها المقدام حادثة موت الحسن رضي الله تعالى عنه مصيبة والعجب كل العجب من معاوية فإنه ما عرف قدر أهل البيت حتى قال ما قال فإن موت الحسن بن علي رضي الله عنه من أعظم المصائب وجزى الله المقدام ورضي عنه فإنه ما سكت عن تكلم الحق حتى أظهره وهكذا شأن المؤمن الكامل المخلص

“…Fa Qaala Lahu Fulan…”(And so-and-so said to him)

In some texts, the word “Rajul”(a man) occurs in the place of “Fulan”(so-and-so), and what is intended by “Fulan”is Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. The author (i.e. Imam Abu Dawood) did not let it be known, as this was his practise. Ahmad (ibn Hanbal) has reported in his Musnad through Haiwah ibn Shareeh, Baqiyyah, Baheer ibn Sa’d, from Khalid ibn Ma’dan who said: “And Muawiyah asked him whether he thought it was a calamity…”(the rest of the above hadeeth).

“…A-Ta’adaha…”(Do you consider this…?)

In some texts it is “A-Taraaha”(Do you see this…?), that is to consider. This means:’Do you regard, oh Miqdam, this event of the death of Al-Hasan as a calamity?’ Astonishment upon astonishment to Muawiyah. Surely he never recognised the status of the Ahlul-Bait, (Muawiyah) saying what he said. For surely the death of Al-Hasan ibn Ali (RA) is the greatest of tragedies. May Allah reward Miqdam, and may He be pleased with him, for he did not stay silent from speaking the truth, until he proclaimed it. And this is the sign of a genuine and pious believer.

Awn al Mabood Sharah Sunan Abu Dawood, Volume 11 page 127

Late Salafi scholar Maulana Waheed uz Zaman Khan Hyderabadi in his commentary of this Hadeeth said:

“Muawiyah’s saying about the death of Imam Hassan (ra) that it was not a calamity was based on biasness against Ali and his progeny. May Allah keep us along with AhleBait on the day of judgement, and may Allah we are raised with them. Amin”

Sunan Abu Dawood, Volume 3 page 273 Hadith 731

Despite this, some of the Nawasib are still blind when it comes to the behaviour of Mu’awiya.

Hanafi scholar Allamah Khalil Ahmad Chisti in his book Maula aur Mu’awiya citing Tayseer al Bari Sharh Bukhari states that it was actually Mu’awiya who said “He (Hasan) was a live coal which Allah has extinguished”.

Another Deobandi Hanafi scholar Malik Ghulam ‘Ali in his book “Khiafaat aur Mulukiyat par Aitrazaat ka Tajziya” [Analysis of criticism of the book Khilafat aur Mulukiyat] page 338 cites Waheed uz Zaman’s text Tayseer al-Bari in his discussion of this episode that:

“Ameer Mu’awiya’s heart was not pure with regards to the Ahl’ul bayt”.

Malik Ghulam Ali also in “Khiafaat aur Mulukiyat par Aitrazaat ka Tajziya” page 340 quoting further comments from ‘Awn Maboodh Sharh Sunan Abu Daud’ said as follows:

“Maulana Sham al Haqq Haqqani stated, Mu’awiya failed to recognised the esteemed station that had been afforded to the Ahl’ul bayt, he said such a thing at a time when Imam Hasan had died, this was a major tragedy and Miqdam recited the couplets of truth at that tragic time, he did not remain silent, and this is the sign of a pious momin. The comments of the man from the Asad tribe were said so as to please Mu’awiya. He went close to Mu’awiya and said ‘(He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished’. Such strong and obnoxious language was said before Mu’awiya (as with Hasan present he felt that some aspects of reign were in danger)”.

We agree with this assertion this was said by this Nasibi to please Mu’awiya. Notice how Mu’awiya at no point reprimands the individual for such a disgraceful comment. If this is not proof within itself that Mu’awiya supported this view, notice the comment of:

Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike.

He then proceeds some faults that he noticed in Mu’awiya. The man from Asad’s failure to ask permission BEFORE he slandered Imam Hasan (s) in the prsesence of Mu’awiya is clear proof that he was fully aware that such a comment would not offend Mu’awiya.

In this day and age these supporters of Mu’awiya seek to incite hatred against the Shi’a for they disrespect the Sahaba. We should point out to these Nasibis that their Imam Mu’awiya would disrespect the family of Rasulullah (s) and that insults about Imam Hasan (s) were said in his presence so as to please him.

Hanafi scholar Maulana Sultan Mahmood in his footnote of the Urdu translation of Sunan Abu Daud Voulme 3 page 273 states:

“Mu’awiya did not consider Imam Hasan’s martyrdom as a sad matter, this was on account of his animosity towards ‘Ali and his family”.

Sunan Abu Daud Voul. 3 page 273

_____________________________________

Sahih al-Bukhari confirms that Imam Ali refused to give his allegiance to Abu Bakr for six months. He gave his allegiance to Abu Bakr only after the martyrdom of his wife Fatimah al-Zahra, Daughter of the Holy Prophet, six month after the departure of Prophet. (see Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English

version, Tradition 5.546).

After the death of Prophet (s), for forty days, Ali (S) was contacting the well-known people at night, reminding them the instructions of prophet about his right to Caliphate, asking them to join him to get the power. But non responded except Abu Dhar, Miqdad, and Salman al-Farsi and some more. The Prophet had already instructed Ali that if the number of his followers at that upheaval exceeds 40 men, he should take the action otherwise he should keep silent since the only remaining pious people would be killed without being able to help Islam. Ali (s) was not afraid of being killed, and he kept silent only to keep the faded lawn of Islam

alive. After he was sure that there would no success in his revolting, he kept silent. During his silence, he indeed started cooperating with the first 2 Caliphs as consultant and did his best to decrease the damage as much as possible. If he had not done so, Islam would have been destroyed completely. Imam Ali said: "I tolerated those periods as if there was a thorn in my eye and a sharp bone stuck in my throat." (Nahjul Balagha, the sayings of Imam Ali).

Islam was very young at that time (only 23 years old!) and division among Muslims could have totally removed Islam from the surface of the earth. So

he kept silent, as Haroon (Aaron) kept silent to prevent division:

(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going wrong?"... (Aaron said:) "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my word!'" (Quran 20:92-94).

Abu Sufyan was one of those who wanted to destroy the young Islam by encouraging Ali to revolt when he was sure that Ali will have no success due to small number of his followers. But the revolt of Ali would at least cause the civil war and the destruction of Islam. al-Tabari reported:

When people gathered to give their oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Abu Sufyan came while saying, "By God, I see a cloud of smoke which nothing but blood will clear. O family of Abd Manaf! Who is Abu Bakr that he should be the master of your affairs? Where are Ali and al-Abbas, the two oppressed ones?" He then said (to Ali): "O Abul Hasan! stretch your hand so that I give you the oath of allegiance."... Ali rebuked him, saying: "By God, you do not intend anything but (to stir up) Fitnah (dissension). For long you have desired evil for Islam. We do not need your advice."

Sunni reference: History of al-Tabari, English version, v9, p199

As we quoted the tradition of al-Bukhari earlier, the Prophet confirmed that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslims. In fact Quran has mentioned the stories of the Children of Israel to give us away to understand the true history of Islam itself. There are many other striking similarities in this regard written in Quran. Please see the artcle of "The Twelve Imams (Part II)" for the Quranic verses in this regard.

_____________________________

Considering Sayed Ali Al Khamenei Please read the Concept of Wilayt al Faqih:

http://www.al-islam.org/shiapoliticalthought/3.htm

Second of All Saqifa as I proved was only between a few people, and not even the Whole of Sahabah was there ( as proved above in the first statement reply), When we come to an Islamic Country, There must be a Faqih to manage the affairs of the Ummah, Don't forget the Whole of Iran and its people wanted and elected the sayed Al Khomenei as the first Faqih, and than later on to Sayed Ali Al Khamenei. The Difference here is that the Whole nation of Iran Chose this, So when you compare it to Saqifa? there is not Significance to what your trying to pin point out of this Agreement, Third of All Sayed Ali Al Khamenei Does not have the Full right to manage every single affair of the nation of Iran, he only manages to what benefits the Nation and his Religion which is Islam. Thats why They vote for a President who manages the Political issues, such as before Ahmad Dinjad, and now we have Shiekh Hassan Rohani (Al Hamdoellah). And last of All when we talk about an "Imam" We are talking about the Imam of this Whole World, and I mean the Imam of every being on this earth, which they must obey, and even with Sayed Al Khamenei and Khoemenei they them selves believe in the Imam Mahdi (A.F).

____________________________

Considering the Twelve Khalifas I was not Quoting from Zaikr Naik, Why did you bring him into the argument? I was Quoting from your Sources as we speak:

  • Abu Bakr
  • Umar
  • Uthman
  • Ali
  • Mu’awiya
  • Yazid
  • Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  • Walid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  • Sulayman bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  • Umar bin Abdul Aziz
  • Yazid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
  • Hasham bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Sharh Fiqa Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, page 73

Again I ask you, How can A Khalifa ( Muwaoyah ) fight a Khalifa (Imam Ali (s), and How can Khalifa (muwaiyah ) put his Son Yazid In His own Throne And kill the Son ( Imam Hussain (s) ) of the Khalifa Imam Ali (s)? Second of All they are all from Quraish.

Can you please give me the correct names of the 12 Imams?

Bro you've totally misunderstood every single thing I said. Maybe it's my fault for not going into detail but tonight I will go into detail

Salams

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Bro you've totally misunderstood every single thing I said. Maybe it's my fault for not going into detail but tonight I will go into detail

Salams

 

 

And this is your reply, when you look at once sentence that is long and Skip everything and make a reply. Good Technique.   

 

What has been Misunderstood your Idea? or the Assumptions you have bee posting on this thread. can you please explain? Can you please post something Authentic for once from our books.

Not a Good Enough Excuses.

(salam)

In Addition Adding to My List of Questions Which Have no been answered with Logic and proof:

 

 

Hadhrath Fatima Zahra (sa) died 6 months after her father (saaws), Hadhrath Abu Bakr died two and a half years later and Hadhrath Umar in 24 Hijri. Despite their later deaths how is it that they attained burial sites next to the Prophet (saaws) and not Hadhrath Fatima (as)? Did she request that she be buried away from her father? If so, why? Or did the Muslims prevent her burial?

 

(see Sahih al Bukhari Arabic – English Vol 5 hadith number 546). 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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And this is your reply, when you look at once sentence that is long and Skip everything and make a reply. Good Technique.

What has been Misunderstood your Idea? or the Assumptions you have bee posting on this thread. can you please explain? Can you please post something Authentic for once from our books.

Not a Good Enough Excuses.

(salam)

In Addition Adding to My List of Questions Which Have no been answered with Logic and proof:

Hadhrath Fatima Zahra (sa) died 6 months after her father (saaws), Hadhrath Abu Bakr died two and a half years later and Hadhrath Umar in 24 Hijri. Despite their later deaths how is it that they attained burial sites next to the Prophet (saaws) and not Hadhrath Fatima (as)? Did she request that she be buried away from her father? If so, why? Or did the Muslims prevent her burial?

(see Sahih al Bukhari Arabic – English Vol 5 hadith number 546).

I said wait till tonight

Assalamu alaykum

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Concerning you telling me that Umar did not oppress Fatima and ignoring me on my last post.



 

أنه لما يجب على غضب عمر وأضرم النار بباب على وأحرقه ودخل فاستقبلته فاطمة وصاحت يا أبتاه ويا رسول الله فرفع عمر السيف وهو فى غمده فوجأ به جنبها المبارك ورفع السوط فضرب به ضرعها فصاحت يا أبتاه فأخذ على بتلابيب عمر وهزه ووجأ أنفه ورقبته

Alusi Baghdadi well known Sunni Mufassir [1] writes:

''Umar became angry and burned the door of Ali's house and broke into the house of Ali, Fatima opposed Umar and cried out : "Oh, father! O Messenger of Allah! 'Umar swunged with the sword which was in its sheath and struck the side of Fatima, and then struck her with whip in the shoulder. Fatima moaned, "Oh, father!" Ali got up from his seat and grabbed Umar's chest and threw him on the ground, then punched him in the nose and neck."

______________________

Sunni - Salafi References:
Source: Ruhul -Ma'ani by Alusi Baghdadi, Volume 3, page 124,
[1] Interpreter of the Holy Quran

 

 

post-83202-0-10206400-1377962831_thumb.jpost-83202-0-56595500-1377962994_thumb.j

 

 


Also Umar threatens Fatimah - 'I will burn your House - Kill Everyone in House' ( and This was to force Imam Ali (as) into Ba'aya.

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حدثنا : محمد بن بشر ، نا : عبيد الله بن عمر ، حدثنا : زيد بن أسلم ، عن أبيه أسلم : أنه حين بويع لأبي بكر بعد رسول الله (ص) كان علي والزبير يدخلان على فاطمة بنت رسول الله (ص) فيشاورونها ويرتجعون في أمرهم ، فلما بلغ ذلك عمر بن الخطاب خرج حتى دخل على فاطمة ، فقال : يا بنت رسول الله (ص) ، والله ما من أحد أحب إلينا من أبيك ، وما من أحد أحب إلينا بعد أبيك منك ، وأيم الله ما ذاك بمانعي إن إجتمع هؤلاء النفر عندك ، أن أمرتهم أن يحرق عليهم البيت ، قال : فلما خرج عمر جاءوها فقالت : تعلمون أن عمر قد جاءني وقد حلف بالله لئن عدتم ليحرقن عليكم البيت وأيم الله ليمضين لما حلف عليه ، فإنصرفوا راشدين ، فروا رأيكم ولا ترجعوا إلي ، فإنصرفوا عنها فلم يرجعوا إليها حتى بايعوا لأبي بكر


Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ''When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’ So when Umar left, they (Ali and Zubair) came , so she (Fatima) said to them: ‘Do you know that Umar came here and swear by Allah to burn the house if you gather here, I swear by God that he (Umar) will execute his oath, so please leave wisely and take a decision and don’t gather here again.’ So they left her and didn’t gather there till they give baya to Abu Bakr.''


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Sunni - Salafi References:
Source: Musannaf of Ibn Abi Seybe, Volume 20, page 579, Hadith Number # 38200
Grading: ( Sahih )

 

 

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Al-Balathiri

Al-Balathiri mentioned that Abu Bakr sent for Imam Ali to pay homage to him but Imam Ali (a.s.) refused to pay homage. Therefore, Umar came with a wick. Fatima (a.s.) met him at the door and said to him, 'Shall you set fire to my door?'

He said, 'Yes, and this is stronger than what your father had brought.'


Sunni Source:

 

Ansab al-Ashraf, volume 1, Page 586, Hadith 1184,

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Ibn Abd Rabbih

He said: "Those who did not pay homage to Abu Bakr were Ali, al-Abbas, az-Zubayr, and Sa'd bin Ubada. As for Ali, al-Abbas, and az-Zabayr, they remained in Fatima's house until Abu Bakr sent to them Umar bin al-Khattab to make them get out of Fatima's house. He said to him, 'If they refuse, you should fight them.' Umar came with a torch intending to set fire to the house. Fatima (a.s.) met him and said, 'O ibn al-Khattab, have you come to burn our house?' He said, 'Yes, or you enter into what the nation has entered into.'

 

 

Sunni Source:

Al-Iqd al-Fareed, volume 5 page 13
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And much more

 

 

Al-Mas'oodi

He mentioned that al-Abbas went to Ameerul Mo'minin (Imam Ali) when the messenger of Allah (a.s.) died. Ameerul Mo'minin and some men of his followers remained in his house with what the messenger of Allah had entrusted him. People (Abu Bakr's men) attacked his house, set fire to the door, and took him out by force. They pressed the Principal of Women behind the door.[1]

The fact of their determination to set fire to Imam Ali and Fatima's house is certain and has no way for doubt.

Hafidh Ibrahim, the Poet of the Nile, says,
"And a saying to Ali that Umar said;
how noble its hearer is and how great its sayer is:
'I burn your house and leave you alive not in it,
If you do not pay homage, though the daughter of al-Mustafa is therein.'
None but Abu Hafs was its sayer before the Knight of Adnan and its Guard."[2] 

Abu Bakr's party acted very severely and violently just to firm the rule for themselves. They ignored the sacredness of the house which they attacked. It was the house of the revelation and prophethood. It was the house wherefrom the Word of Monotheism was raised. They paid attention to nothing of that. They announced their mottos against the prophetic family since the first moment after the Prophet's death. Umar said, 'Prophethood and caliphate should not gather in the same house.'

They tried to burn the house of the daughter of the messenger of Allah (a.s.) for the sake of rule and authority. This fact was proved by the very lovers of the rule and authority who trod on everything in the way of fulfilling their desires.

Abu Bakr regretted too much what he committed against the house of Fatima, the Principal of all Women of the Worlds. He said in his last illness, 'I do not regret anything in this world except three things I 

[1] Ithbat al-Wasiyya, p.123.
[2] Divan of Hafidh Ibrahim, vol. 1 p. 75.

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have done that I wished I had not done…I wished I had not exposed anything in Fatima's house…'[1]

Once another, he said, 'I regret nothing except three things that I wished I had not done; I wished I had not exposed Fatima's house and left it alone even if it was closed on war.'[2]

The attack on Fatima's house made Abu Bakr upset and uneasy feeling regret and sorrow at the last moment of his life. 2. The aggression against Fatima (a.s.)

Another certain fact is that Abu Bakr's men aggressed against Fatima (a.s.) because she stood firmly against them. She tried her best to refute their plots and take the right back to its people. She had self immunity for she was the daughter of the messenger of Allah (a.s.) and the principal of the women of the world. However, those men did pay no attention to all that and they insisted on carrying out their policy whatever the cost might be. They turned their backs to the truth.

In consequence of that flagrant aggression against the daughter of the messenger of Allah (a.s.), she miscarried her child that the Prophet (a.s.) had named al-Muhsin. Here, we quote some historic texts without commenting on them:

Ash-Shahristani

Ash-Shahristani narrated from Ibrahim bin Sayyar that Umar beat Fatima until she aborted her fetus. He was shouting, 'Set fire to her house with whomever in it!'[3]

Ibn Hajar

Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani said in the biography of Ahmed bin Muhammad bin as-Sariy bin Yahya bin Darim Abu Bakr al-Kufi, 'Muhammad bin Ahmed al-Kufi was reliable most of his life…Once, I visited him while there was a man narrating to him: 'Umar kicked Fatima until she aborted (her fetus) Muhsin.'[4]

[1] Tareekh at-Tabari, vol. 2 p. 619, Mizan al-I'tidal, vol. 2 p. 215, Kanzol Irfan, vol. 5 p. 631.
[2] Lisan al-Mizan, vol. 4 p. 189.
[3] Al-Milal wen-Nihal, vol. 1 p. 57.
[4] Lisan al-Mizan, vol. 1 p. 268.

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Al-Mas'oodi

He said, 'They pressed the principal of women against the door until she miscarried Muhsin.'[1]

Ath-Thahabi 

He mentioned a tradition narrated from Muhammad bin Ahmed bin Hammad al-Kufi…that he said, 'One day, I visited him while there was some man narrating to him that Umar kicked Fatima until she miscarried Muhsin.'[2]

Ibn Qutayba

Ibn Qutayba said, 'Muhsin was aborted after the pressure of Qunfudh al-Adawi.'[3]

As-Safadi

He said that Umar beat Fatima's abdomen on the day of the homage until she miscarried al-Muhsin.[4]

At-Tabari

He said, 'The cause of her (Fatima) death was that Qunfudh, the mawla of the man (Abu Bakr), thrust her with the iron part of the sheath of his sword by his (Umar) order and she miscarried Muhsin, and because of that she became badly ill.'[5]

At-Tabrisi

He mentioned the protest of Imam al-Hasan (a.s.) against a group of the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) among whom there was al-Mugheera bin Shu'ba to whom Imam al-Hasan (a.s.) said,'As for you O Mugheera, you are an enemy to Allah, a deserter to His Book, and unbelieving in His prophet. You are an adulterer and you must be stoned. It is you who hit Fatima the daughter of the messenger of Allah (a.s.) and made her bleed and she miscarried what there was in her abdomen out of your belittling the messenger of Allah, opposing his orders, and violating his honor. The messenger 

[1] Ithbat al-Wasiyya, p. 143.
[2] Mizan al-I'tidal, vol. 1 p. 139.
[3] Manaqib Aal Abi Talib, vol. 3 p. 133.
[4] Al-Wafi bil-Wafiyyaat, vol. 5 p. 347.
[5] Dala'il al-Imama, p. 134, and quoted in Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 43 p. 170.

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of Allah (a.s.) had said to her, 'O Fatima, you are the principal of the women of the Paradise.''[1]

Al-Majlisi

Sheikh al-Majlisi quoted from Irshad al-Qulub that Fatima (a.s.) said, 'Umar took the whip from Qunfudh's hand and stroke with it my upper arm and the whip wound on my arm and it was like a ring. Then he kicked the door with his foot against me and I was pregnant. I fell on my face to the ground. He hit me with his hand and my earring scattered. And then, I miscarried Muhsin that was killed with no guilt.'[2]

These were some of the sources that have mentioned the event of the aggression against Fatima (a.s.). All the Shia believe in this fact as true, and there are many traditions transmitted from the Infallible Imams (a.s.) about this event. However, these events show that those people were ready to commit anything for the sake of rule and authority.

3. Abrogating the Khums

One of the oppressive procedures that Abu Bakr took against the Prophet's progeny was that he abrogated the khums[3] which had been determined by Allah for the Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) as mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, (And know that whatever thing you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, if you believe in Allah. 8:41).

Muslims have agreed on that the Prophet (a.s.) took a share from the khums for himself and gave another share to his relatives. He kept on doing so until he left to the better world. When Abu Bakr assumed the caliphate, he abrogated the Prophet's share and the share of his relatives. He prevented the Hashemites from the khums and treated them like others.[4] 

[1] Al-Ihtijaj, vol. 1 p. 401.
[2] Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 30 p. 348-34-9.
[3] Khums is one fifth of one's gains and income that must be given to the imam or his deputy.
[4] Tafsir al-Kashshaf, vol. 2 p. 221 in interpreting the verse of khums.

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Fatima (a.s.) sent to Abu Bakr asking him to pay her what had remained from the khums of Khaybar, but he refused to pay her anything.[1] 

Poverty attacked the house of the Hashemites after they had been prevented from their rights that Allah had determined for them. The reason behind that was to make Imam Ali (a.s.) weak and unable to stand against Abu Bakr. This was a kind of blockade that nowadays some countries impose on their opponents.

4. Confiscation of Fadak

And from the severe procedures that Abu Bakr followed against Fatima (a.s.) was his confiscating of Fadak to the public treasury.

Fadak was a village in Hijaz about two or three days (of travel) from Medina.[2] It belonged to the Jews and was near to Khaybar.[3]

As for its boundaries to the Infallible Imams, Fadak comprehended all the regions of the Muslim world. Historians have mentioned that once Harun ar-Rasheed (the Abbasid caliph) said to Imam Musa bin Ja'far al-Kadhim (a.s.), 'I like to give Fadak back to you.'

Imam Musa al-Kadhim (a.s.) said, 'I do not take it except with all its limits.'

The caliph said, 'What are its limits?'

The Imam said, 'If I define it, you may not give it back.'

The caliph said, 'I adjure you by your grandfather to do.'

The Imam said, 'Its first limit is Aden.' The caliph changed color.

The Imam added, 'The second limit is Samarqand.' The caliph was astonished. 
The Imam added, 'The third limit is Africa, and the fourth is after the islands and Armenia.' Harun ar-Rasheed lost his mind and he said, 'He did not leave anything for us.'[4] 

[1] Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 3 p. 36, Sahih Muslim, vol. 2 p. 72.
[2] Mu'jam al-Buldan, vol. 4 p.238.
[3] Majma' al-Bahrain, vol. 5 p. 283.
[4] Manaqib Aal Abi Talib, vol. 4 p. 320.

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The Muslim state that had covered most of the world was for the imams of the Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) but it was taken from them by force and the Umayyad and the Abbasid kings overcome it with no right.

Fadak was not conquered by the Muslim armies, but it was from that which Allah had granted to His prophet by peacemaking in the seventh year of hijra; therefore, it was completely the Prophet's property.

When the Muslims conquered the forts of Khaybar, Allah threw fear and terror into the Jews' hearts and they hurried to make peace with the messenger of Allah on condition that they would give him the half of their lands. Thus, Fadak became the Prophet's property.

When Fadak was in the Prophet's possession, this verse was revealed to him, (And give to the near of kin his due. 17:26). Many recurrent, true traditions were transmitted confirming that the Prophet (a.s.) had sent for Fatima (a.s.) and donated her with Fadak and al-Awali saying to her, 'This is a share that Allah has determined for you and for your progeny.'[1] 

Fatima (a.s.) acted in Fadak as an owner to her property. The Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) had no source of income except Fadak as Ameerul Mo'minin said, 'Only Fadak was in our hands from all what the sky shaded.' After the Prophet's death, Abu Bakr confiscated Fadak to the public treasury. The reason behind that was to weaken Imam Ali (a.s.) economically and paralyze the oppositionist movement against Abu Bakr.

Ibn Abil Hadeed says, 'One day, I asked Ali bin al-Fariqi, the teacher of the western school in Baghdad: Was Fatima true?

He said: Yes.

I said: Then why did he (Abu Bakr) not give her Fadak whereas she was true near him?

He smiled and said some pleasant words: If he gave her Fadak today just for her claim, she would come to him tomorrow claiming the caliphate for her husband and would move him from his place and he 

[1] Shawahid at-Tanzil, vol. 1 p. 441, ad-Durr al-Manthur, vol. 2 p. 151, Kanzol Ummal, vol. 2 p. 158, Rooh al-Ma'ani, vol. 5 p.58.

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could not apologize or agree about anything because he would confirm that she was true in whatever she claimed without a need for evidences or witnesses".[1]

Anyhow, the governments that followed Abu Bakr and Umar did with Fadak due to their fancies. Uthman bin Affan donated Fadak to Marwan bin al-Hakam and that was one of the reasons of the revolt against Uthman as historians say.[2] After Marwan's death, his descendants inherited it one from the other until Umar bin Abdul Aziz assumed the rule and he took it from them and returned it as charity.[3]

Fatima asks for Fadak

After Abu Bakr had confiscated Fadak, Fatima (a.s.) asked him to give it back to her. Historians say that Abu Bakr asked Fatima (a.s.) to bring him witnesses that the Prophet (a.s.) had donated Fadak to her and she did. The witnesses were Imam Ali (a.s.) and Umm Aymen about whom the Prophet (a.s.) said she was from the people of the Paradise. Abu Bakr wrote a book to give Fadak back to Fatima (a.s.), but Umar took the book, spat on it, and tore it into pieces.[4]

It was mentioned that Abu Bakr regarded neither the witness of Imam Ali (a.s.) nor Umm Aymen's. He said: 'Ali pulls the fire toward his loaf, and Umm Aymen is a non-Arab woman that she does not speak good Arabic.'

Anyhow, the Shia theologians commented on this event with many points which we mention some of here:

1. Abu Bakr asked Fatima (a.s.) to prove that the Prophet had donated Fadak to her though Fadak was in her possession, while the one who should have a proof was the claimer (Abu Bakr), and as he had no proof he had to take an oath on his claim according to the famous rule "evidence is required from a claimer and oath from a denier". 

[1] Sharh Nahjol Balagha by Ibn Abil Hadeed, vol. 1 p. 198.
[2] Al-Iqd al-Fareed, vol. 4 p. 283.
[3] Tareekh Abul Fida', vol. 1 p. 168.
[4] Al-Ihtijaj, vol. 1 p. 122, as-Seera al-Halabiyya, vol. 3 p. 362.

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2. Abu Bakr ignored the position of the daughter of the messenger of Allah who was the principal of the women of the nation and the worlds and that Allah would be pleased for her pleasure and displeased for her displeasure as the Prophet (a.s.) often said. She was one of those whom Allah had imposed the love to them on the nation when saying, (Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives. 42:23) and she was one of those whom Allah had purified and kept uncleanness away from them when saying, (Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House, and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. 33:33), and she was one of those whom the Prophet (a.s.) disputed by them with the Christians of Najran where Allah had said, (But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our selves and your selves, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars. 3:61), and she was from the righteous whom Allah had said about, (Surely the righteous shall drink of a cup the admixture of which is camphor. 76:5). All that required Abu Bakr to definitely believe Fatima's claim. 

However, Abu Bakr seized Fadak and joined it to the properties of the state which made Fatima (a.s.) lose the only source of living for her and her children. We are Allah's and to Him we shall return!

Imam Ali (a.s.) asked the (Prophet's) companions to support him and to take his right back to him. Historians say that Imam Ali (a.s.) took Fatima, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn (peace be on them) on a mount and went to the companions asking them for help. Fatima (a.s.) asked the companions to support her husband, but they apologized and said, 'We have already paid homage to Abu Bakr, and if your cousin (Imam Ali) came to us before him, we would not pay homage to other than him.'[1]

How flimsy justification it was! They were certainly responsible for that because Imam Ali (a.s.) was busy preparing the Prophet (a.s.) for burial. He could not leave the Prophet (a.s.) laid on the bed of death and go to people who seized the opportunity to appropriate the rule. 

[1] Al-Imama wes-Siyasa, vol. 1 p. 16.

Ref: The Life Of Fatima Az-Zahra Author : Baqir Shareef al-Qurashi

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Another Question,The Holy Prophet (saaws) had said “I swear by the one who controls my life that this man (Ali) and his Shi’a shall secure deliverance on the day of resurrection”. Do any hadith exist in which the Prophet (saaws) had guaranteed paradise for Imams Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi, Hanbal and their followers?

 

-Tafsir Durr al Manthur, by al Hafidh Jalaladeen Suyuti (One of the Ul'uma of the Sunnah) in his commentary of verse 98:7

 

 

 

Also In Mustadrak Al Hakim Al'a al Sahehain:

"Ali is with the Qur’an and the Qur’an is with ‘Ali, the two shall not separate until the meet me at the Fountain of Kauthar"

 

Volume 3, Page 124, 
Hadith Rating by Al Nisabori: SAHIH




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Is Muaiuyah Still your Khalifa?....Is he the Righteous in the War of Seffin?

So Is Abu Bkar Righteous For Khilafa or Ali (As)? 


OR ALI! IMAM ALI! (as)

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal:
 
حدثنا عبد الرزاق , وعفان المعنى , وهذا حديث عبد الرزاق قالا : ثنا جعفر بن سليمان ، قال : حدثني يزيد الرشك ، عن مطرف بن عبد الله ، عن عمران بن حصين ، قال : بعث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سرية وأمر عليهم علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله تعالى عنه فأحدث شيئا في سفره ، فتعاهد , قال عفان : فتعاقد أربعة من أصحاب محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يذكروا أمره لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، قال عمران : وكنا إذا قدمنا من سفر بدأنا برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فسلمنا عليه ، قال : فدخلوا عليه ، فقام رجل منهم ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، فأعرض عنه ، ثم قام الثاني ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، فأعرض عنه ، ثم قام الثالث ، فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، فأعرض عنه ، ثم قام الرابع , فقال : يا رسول الله ، إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا ، قال فأقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على الرابع , وقد تغير وجهه ، فقال : " دعوا عليا ، دعوا عليا ، دعوا عليا ، إن عليا مني وأنا منه ، وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي " .
 

Abdulrazaq and Affan narrated from Ja’far ibn Sulaiman from Yazid Al-Rashk from Motref ibn Abdullah from Imran ibn Hussain who said: The Messenger of Allah (saw) had sent an army with Alee ibn Abi Taalib as their commander to Yemen and he did something in that mission. Affan said: 'Then four companions of the Messenger of Allah decided and agreed to report it to the Messenger of Allah (saw).' Imraan said: When we came back we met the Messenger of Allah (saw) and saluted him. He said: One of those companions stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee (a.s) did such and such, the Prophet (saw) turned his face from him, then the second one stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee did such and such, the Messenger of Allah turned his face from him, then the third one stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee did such and such, the Messenger of Allah (saw) turned his face from him too, then the fourth one stood up and said: O Messenger of Allah (saw), Alee did such and such, the Messenger of Allah turned to them and said: "Leave Alee (a.s) alone he is from me and I am from him and he is Wali of every believer after me."

Footnote: Ahmad Mohammad Shaker comments on this Hadeeth and says: 'The chain of this hadeeth is Saheeh (Authentic), and Yazid Al-Rashq is ibn Abi Yazid and he is Thiqa (Trustworthy) among all scholars as said before. This hadeeth is narrated by Al-Tirmdhi too in the chapter of Fazail-e-Alee (merits of Alee) and says: It is Hasan Gharib and not known other than hadeeth of Ja’far ibn Sulaiman, and Al-Hakim says it is Saheeh (Authentic) in the conditions of Muslim and Al-Dhahabi comfirms it

Source: Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. Vol. 15, Pg. # 78 - 79, H # 19813.



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Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal:
 
حدثنا عبد الله حدثنا يحيى بن حماد حدثنا أبو عوانة حدثنا أبو بلج حدثنا عمرو بن ميمون قال إني لجالس إلى ابن عباس إذ أتاه تسعة رهط فقالوا يا أبا عباس إما أن تقوم معنا وإما أن يخلونا هؤلاء قال فقال ابن عباس بل أقوم معكم قال وهو يومئذ صحيح قبل أن يعمى قال فابتدءوا فتحدثوا فلا ندري ما قالوا قال فجاء ينفض ثوبه ويقول أف وتف وقعوا في رجل له عشر وقعوا في رجل قال له النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لأبعثن رجلا لا يخزيه الله أبدا يحب الله ورسوله قال فاستشرف لها من استشرف قال أين علي قالوا هو في الرحل يطحن قال وما كان أحدكم ليطحن قال فجاء وهو أرمد لا يكاد يبصر قال فنفث في عينيه ثم هز الراية ثلاثا فأعطاها إياه فجاء بصفية بنت حيي قال ثم بعث فلانا بسورة التوبة فبعث عليا خلفه فأخذها منه قال لا يذهب بها إلا رجل مني وأنا منه قال وقال لبني عمه أيكم يواليني في الدنيا والآخرة قال وعلي معه جالس فأبوا فقال علي أنا أواليك في الدنيا والآخرة قال أنت وليي في الدنيا والآخرة قال فتركه ثم أقبل على رجل منهم فقال أيكم يواليني في الدنيا والآخرة فأبوا قال فقال علي أنا أواليك في الدنيا والآخرة فقال أنت وليي في الدنيا والآخرة قال وكان أول من أسلم من الناس بعد خديجة قال وأخذ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثوبه فوضعه على علي وفاطمة وحسن وحسين فقال إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا قال وشرى علي نفسه لبس ثوب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم نام مكانه قال وكان المشركون يرمون رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أبو بكر وعلي نائم قال وأبو بكر يحسب أنه نبي الله قال فقال يا نبي الله قال فقال له علي إن نبي الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قد انطلق نحو بئر ميمون فأدركه قال فانطلق أبو بكر فدخل معه الغار قال وجعل علي يرمى بالحجارة كما كان يرمى نبي الله وهو يتضور قد لف رأسه في الثوب لا يخرجه حتى أصبح ثم كشف عن رأسه فقالوا إنك للئيم كان صاحبك نرميه فلا يتضور وأنت تتضور وقد استنكرنا ذلك قال وخرج بالناس في غزوة تبوك قال فقال له علي أخرج معك قال فقال له نبي الله لا فبكى علي فقال له أما ترضى أن تكون مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى إلا أنك لست بنبي إنه لا ينبغي أن أذهب إلا وأنت خليفتي قال وقال له رسول الله أنت وليي في كل مؤمن بعدي وقال سدوا أبواب المسجد غير باب علي فقال فيدخل المسجد جنبا وهو طريقه ليس له طريق غيره قال وقال من كنت مولاه فإن مولاه علي قال وأخبرنا الله عز وجل في القرآن أنه قد رضي عنهم عن أصحاب الشجرة فعلم ما في قلوبهم هل حدثنا أنه سخط عليهم بعد قال وقال نبي الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لعمر حين قال ائذن لي فلأضرب عنقه قال أوكنت فاعلا وما يدريك لعل الله قد اطلع إلى أهل بدر فقال اعملوا ما شئتم حدثنا أبو مالك كثير بن يحيى قال حدثنا أبو عوانة عن أبي بلج عن عمرو بن ميمون عن ابن عباس نحوه

Umar ibn Maymun said: "I was sitting once in the company of ibn Abbas when nine men came to him and said, 'O iAbbas! Either come to debate with us, or tell these folks that you prefer a private debate.' He had not lost his eye-sight yet he said: 'I rather debate with you.' So they started talking, but I was not sure exactly what they were talking about. Then he stood up and angrily said: "Woe to them! Woe to them! They are debating about a man who has ten merits nobody else ever had. They are arguing about a man whom the Holy Prophet (saw) has said, 'I shall dispatch a man whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì shall never humiliate, one who is loved by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and His Messenger (saw)." So each one of them thought to him such an honour belonged. The Holy Prophet (saw) inquired about Alee saying, 'where is Alee?' When the latter came unto him, with his eyes swelling in ailment, he (pbuh) blew in his eyes, shook the standard thrice and gave it to him. Alee came back victorious with Safiyya bint Huyay [Al-Akhtab] among his captives. Ibn Abbas proceeded to say, "Then the Messenger of Allah (saw) sent someone (Aboo Bakr) with Surat Al-Tawbah, but he had to send Alee after him to discharge the responsibility, saying: Nobody can discharge it except a man who is of me, and I am of him.' ibn Abbas also said, "The Messenger of Allah (saw), with Alee sitting beside him, asked his cousins once: "Who among you elects to be my Wali in this life and the life hereafter?" They all declined, but Alee who said: "I would like to be your Wali in this life and the life to come." Whereupon the Prophet (saw) responded by saying: "You are indeed  my Wali in this life and the life hereafter." Ibn Abbas continues to say that Alee was the first person to accept Islam after Khadijah, and that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) took his own robe and put it over Alee, Faatima, Hassan and Hussain, then recited the verse saying: "Allah wishes to remove all abomination from you, O Ahl al-Bayt [people of my household] and purify you with a perfect purification (Qur'an, 33:33)." He has also said: "Alee bought his own soul, he put on the Prophet's garment and slept in his bed when the infidels sought to murder him until the Messenger of Allah (saw) went on Tabuk expedition accompanied by many people." Alee asked him: 'May I join you?' The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) refused, whereupon Alee (a.s) wept. The Prophet (pbuh) then asked him: Does it not please you that your status to me is similar to that of Haroon is to Musa, except there is no Prophet after me? It is not proper for me to leave this place before assigning you as my vicegerent.' The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) has also said the following to him: "You are my heir among every believer after me."
 
Ibn Abbas has said: "The Messenger of Allah closed down all doors leading to his mosque except that of Alee (a.s), who used to enter the mosque on his way out even while in the state of Janaba (impurity). The Messenger of Allah (saw) has also said: 'Whoever accepts me as the Wali, let him/her take Alee as the Wali too.' And Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has revealed in His book that he is satisfied with them, the companions of the tree, because he knew what is in their hearts, did he then reveal that he is not pleased with them?! Then said: 'The Messenger of Allah (saw) said to Umar when he wanted to kill one of the people of Badr, 'will you kill him?!' You do not know maybe Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has said to the people of Badr do whatever you want!?"
 
Footnote: The chain is Saheeh (Authentic!). Abu Balj, his name is Yahya ibn Salim and it is said he is Yahya ibn Abi al-Aswad al-Fazari, and he is Thiqa, ibn Mo'een, ibn Sa’d, Al-Nasa'i and Dar al-Qutni and the others say: 'He is 'Thiqa' (Trustworthy), and in Al-Tahdheeb that Bukhari says: "There is a problem about him" and I do not know where does Bukhari say this? Because his biography is in Tarikh Al-Kabir of Bukhari but he has not degraded him, he has not written about him in his Al-Saghir too, and not he nor Nasa'i have not mentioned him in Dhuhafa, he has narrated from Shohba and has not narrated except from Thiqa (Trustworthy).

Source: Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. Vol. 3, Pg. # 331-333.

 

 

_________________

 

 

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If the prophet is Saying he is the "Wali" of every believer, then this means for the past, present and Future, So please don't Tell me or give me useless Excuses on this issue. Its Clear who is the Real Khalifa. I posted another proof that Khalifa "WALI" means Successor. 

Can you please Give me proof that The prophet Meant "Friend" When he used the Term WALI in Ghadir Khum?

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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I'm in the process if you give me half a chance.

Also stop posting hadith after hadith I can't keep up. One step at a time brother.

Assalamu alaykum

 

 

No problem. But You have rejected The Fundamentals from the start, so therefore one must Add to the "box of Knowledge"...Which was not even open...   

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

YOU SAID

You put Forward a video of "Al aro'or," Who is one of the most rejected people among the Muslims, Do you really listen to this man?

Yes I do, because the shia was dumbfounded and if he had an answer he would have come out with it.

Do you believe ali a.s swore allegiance to abu bakr yes or no??

I'm not asking when how or why why just a simple yes or no??

YOU SAID

The Method Was wrong? but the Decision was right? Does that even make sense?

MY ANSWER

When I said the method I didn't mean shura by the way incase you got confused. I acknowledge that this wasn't shura and hazrath umar r.a even admits in a hadith in bukhari that what happened at saqifa was wrong. So when I said the method was wrong I meant what happened at saqifa and not shura.

YOU SAID

First of All, No, not the Top so called "Sahabas" voted as you claim.

They in-fact stayed with Imam Ali (s) and did not pledge Allegiance, because they Already knew that the prophet (s) appointed Imam Ali (s) as the Imam of the Ummah and I can prove this from many Authentications from your books, as if I did in the previous posts.

MY ANSWER

You what?? Are you seriously dreaming?? You have a hadith with a handful of names that's it what about all the other thousands of sahaba who swore allegiance and then all the sahaba eventually swore allegiance.

YOU SAID

Third of All you still have not proven Shura in the Quran where it appoints an Imam for the people, whats more Ironic you know its the Wrong Method, So how can the outcome of it be right?

MY ANSWER

Why on earth should I prove anything regarding what you've asked????

SHURA IS NOT USUL AD DIN my dear but imamat is. Now you tell me why Allah (swt) has kept it a secret that he will appoint imams for this ummah.

You want to debate 13:7 then bring it on but I warn you that you better have a deep understanding of Arabic. The last two words in that verse are kowmin HADI

Do you know basic Arabic??

Kowmin means people and HADI means guide there is no "there is"in this sentence.

You can read sunni translation here

http://www.khayma.com/librarians/call2islaam/quran/pickthall/index.html

And watch this video:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1pTMRgyGsA

YOU SAID

First of All Umar Took the right of the prophet (s) To write his own will. Can you please tell me why? I will tell you why, because he know that he was going to write a statement to assure that Imam Ali (S) is the Khalifa after him

MY ANSWER

Right right... So you're a mind reader now? How do you know that for certain? You don't. Also the prophet (pbuh) lived for 3 days after that and he never wrote or asked for anything, so it can't have been that important.

YOU SAID

which we all agree that what the prophet (s) does, he does only

by the commandment of Allah only, therefore Umar went against the orders of Allah (swt)

MY ANSWER

Errr... Yea whatever. You still haven't opened the thread you promised.

YOU SAID

.........Omar told him to LEAVE THEM ALONEand GO AWAYas they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet........

MY ANSWER

you just concentrate on the above and you will see the truth.

Bro all you're doing is copy and pasting endlessly. In future just leave the link and I can read for myself. I spend quality time on replying to you not just a quick two minute copy and paste and that's it.

The rest of your post goes on and on in the future stick to the main topic at hand. Below you will find a link talking about the hadiths you pointed out.

[URL Edited]/index.php?showtopic=15006&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

PLEASE STICK TO THE MAIN TOPIC

also regarding umar r.a killing bibi fatimah r.a well where was the lion of Allah??

Also ali a.s got his deadly revenge on umar r.a in the future. He gave him a devastating punishment, a punishment that no man could ever give to the murderer of his wife. Ali a.s took true revenge. Please read link below on how ali a.s took revenge on umar r.a

http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/umm-kalthoum-bint-alira-married-to-umar-bin-khattabra/

Also have a good read of this:

http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/12/19/fatimara-burning-of-house-bayah-of-alira/

Regarding the twelve caliphs then there already is a thread for this so get your answer from there.

Salams

Edited by Just the truth

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JustTheTruth & The Viewers of this Post, I will first begin to Criticize the site which the Opposition has mentioned in his Sources, Sadly, You seem to use Very Weak Arguments to Justify your answers which have no Source, Nor Foundation to be exact, Simply put. you have ignored many Of may Evidences and Decided to go a head and post what ever I know. Sadly and very very sad, You mentioned Ibn Taiyimah, The Liar and Hippocratic, Who even both Sunni And Shia Sects Have rejected him, and if you my dear friend follow him, then keep in mind you are Basically a Nasibi (Please keep that in mind.) let us first begin to justify the link which the opponent has provided, before we expose Ibn Taiymah. Let us a take a very deep look:

He has state with no Respect the following:

 

 

 

also regarding umar r.a killing bibi fatimah r.a well where was the lion of Allah??

Also ali a.s got his deadly revenge on umar r.a in the future. He gave him a devastating punishment, a punishment that no man could ever give to the murderer of his wife. Ali a.s took true revenge. Please read link below on how ali a.s took revenge on umar r.a

http://islamistruth....-bin-khattabra/


Before we expose this Sort of Falsehood let us take a look at the Ahadith provided in the link first and than we shall go deep into the following inshalla, as we see our friend here mentioned that Imam Ali  (as) Got married to Um Kalthom. Our answer to this is simple We now must ask, Was she forced into marriage or proper marriage? Is she ( Um Kalthum ) the Daughter of Ali  (as)? Will since our Friends mentioned Kafi We shall Mention From Kafi Also and some of the Books of Ahlul-Sunnah.

 

Some scholars of Shia and Sunni, by accepting the marriage itself, have mentioned that the wife of Umar, by the name of Ummul Kulthum was not the duaghter of Imam Ali (s), rather she was the duaghter of Abu bakr. Scholars such as Yahya bin Sharaf Nauawy, the most reliable commentator of Sahih Muslim, in the book of Tahzib al Ismaa‘ have mentioned this point. Shia scholars such as AyatuAllah Mu’arshi Najafi in Sharh Ahqaq al Haq have also mentioned the same thing, which we will be providing their proofs and evidences in this article. It seems like amongst all the answers provided, the last answer mentioned is the most logical one. This is because on one side, there are all the traditions of Ahlu Sunnah which are contradictory to each other and contain weak Isnad and are deemed unreliable; and on the other hand none of the traditions in the books of Shias prove that the “Ummul Kulthum” in question, is the daughter of Imam Ali (s), rather they simply report the marriage of a girl by the name of Ummul Kulthum to Umar bin Khatab. The confession of scholars such as Nauawy, the most important commentator of Sahih Muslim – who also happens to be the author of the most important book of Fiqh of the Shafai school of thought – is another point which makes this answer much stronger. We also believe that even if this marriage was to be proven, it cannot prove a friendly relationship between Imam Ali (s) and the other Caliphs. This is because not only this marriage could not be considered as a merit for Umar, rather just like usurping the succession of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), it would be considered as a great negative point in the history of Umar. This is due to the stories mentioned in these traditions which would be considered as great shameful acts by any person with dignity. There is a group of scholars amongst shia and sunnis, who think that Hazrat Ali asws did not have any other daughter apart from Bibi Zainab asws, rather Umm Kulthum was actually the same woman who was named Zainab And those people who had said that Hazrat Ali asws had 5 children from Bibi Fatima asws, that is, hHasan, Hussein, Mohsin, Zainab, Umm kulthum (peace be on them) Atually they narrated so because sometimes her name was used, i.e, Zainab, and sometimes Umm kulthum and they did not pay attention to this that they are actually one rather Umm Kulthum was the kuniyat of Bibi Zainab and this comes in many books:


Shia Scholars Opinion:

_______________________
 

Radi ud Deen Hilli, who is a scholar of 8th hijri, he writes

 

كان له ( عليه السلام ) سبعة وعشرون ذكرا وأنثى: الحسن، والحسين، وزينب الكبرى المكناة بأم كلثوم

 

” He had 17 children: Hasan, Hussein, Zainab ul kubra who kuniyyat was Umm Kulthum”
۔
الحلي، رضى الدين على بن يوسف المطهر، (متوفاي705هـ)، العدد القوية لدفع المخاوف اليومية، ص242، تحقيق: السيد مهدى الرجائى، ناشر: مكتبة آية الله المرعشى ـ قم، الطبعة الأولى، 1408ه

 

Ayatullah Marashi, writes in Sharah of Ahqaq ul Haq, and he quotes Fadal bin Rozbahan, who is scholar from 10th century hijri

ومنهم العلامة فضل الله روزبهان الخنجي الأصفهاني المتوفى سنة 927 في ” وسيلة الخادم إلى المخدوم ” در شرح صلوات چهارده معصوم عليهم السلام ( ص 103 ط كتابخانه عمومى آية الله العظمى نجفى بقم ) قال:..

 

 

” Hazrat Ali had 17 children, and another narration says that He had 20 children. Hasan, Hussein, Mohsin and Umm kulthum. and They were from Bibi Fatima 

المرعشي النجفي، آية الله السيد شهاب الدين (متوفاي 1369ش)، شرح إحقاق الحق وإزهاق الباطل، ج 30 ص 172، ناشر: منشورات مكتبة آية الله العظمى المرعشي النجفي ـ قم.

 

Baqir Shareef Qarshi, who is scholar of this era, writes

 

ليس لصديقة الطاهرة بنت غير السيدة زينب. و أنها تكنّا بأُمّ كلثوم. كما ذكرنا اليه بعض المحققين. و علي ايّ حال فإنّي اذهب بغير تردد اذا ان الصديقة الطاهرة الزهراء ليس عندها بنت تسمّي بأُم كلثوم.

 

” Bibi Fatima asws did not had any other daughter apart from Zainab, and she is the same who had kuniyyat of Umm Kulthum as other researchers wrote. and I am firm believer in this that Bibi Fatima asws did not had any other daughter who was named Umm Kulthum”

 

 

القرشي، باقر شريف (معاصر)، حياة سيدة النساء فاطمة الزهرا سلام الله عليها، ص 219.

 

 

 

Sunni Scholar Opinion:

________________

 

 

Some scholars of ahlusunnah also wrote that Bibi Fatima had 3 or 4 children, and none of them were named Umm Kulthum

Salih Shami wrote in Sabl ul Huda wa Rashad

الثاني: في ولده – رضي الله تعالى عنهم – له من الولد الحسن والحسين ومحسن وزينب الكبرى من فاطمة – رضي الله تعالى عنهم – وله أولاد من غيرها كثيرون.

 

“children of ali from fatima were: hasan, hussein, mohsin and zainab kubra. and his other children were from other wives

الصالحي الشامي، محمد بن يوسف (متوفي942هـ)، سبل الهدى والرشاد في سيرة خير العباد، ج 11، ص 288، تحقيق: عادل أحمد عبد الموجود وعلي محمد معوض، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1414هـ.

In the same way, Shahab ud Deen Qalyoobi writes in Sharah Jalal ud Din Mohali, which is sharah/explanation of Minhaj ul Talibeen, he wrote in the foot notes that hazrat ali had 3 children from bibi fatima. and he quoted this from Jalal ud Deen Sayooti

He further writes

 

قوله: ( والاعتبار بالأب ) أي إلا في حقه (ص) فإن أولاد بنته فاطمة وهم الحسن والحسين وأولادهما من الذكور ينتسبون إليه، وهم الأشراف في عرف مصر وإن كان الشرف أصالة لقبا لكل من أهل البيت، وأما أولاد زينب بنت فاطمة، وكذا أولاد بنات الحسن والحسين وأولادهما من غيرهم، فإنهم ينتسبون إلى آبائهم وإن كان يقال للجميع أولاده (ص) وذريته.

فائدة: قال الجلال السيوطي رحمه الله لم يعقب من أولاده (ص) إلا فاطمة الزهراء فإنها ولدت من علي رضي الله عنه الحسن والحسين وزينب، وتزوجت زينب هذه بابن عمها عبد الله فولد له منها علي وعون الأكبر وعباس ومحمد وأم كلثوم، وكل ذرية فاطمة يقال لهم أولاده (ص) وذريته لكن لا ينسب إليه منهم إلا الذكور من أولاد الحسن والحسين خاصة لنصه على ذلك ا ه.

 

This is correct that children are attributed to father, but this is not the case with Holy Prophet asws. progeny of Fatima who is his daughter, from Hasan and Hussein, are attributed to him (Holy Prophet). And they are called Honorable/Ashraf in terms of Egypt. Though this term is for everyone from Ahlubait.

 

As regards to progeny of Zainab, and for the daughters of Hasan and Hussein, they are attributed to their fathers if the word progeny of Prophet is used for them

 

Jalal ud Deen Sayooti said that progeny of Holy Prophet asws spread only through Bibi Fatima. Bibi Fatima got married to Hazrat Ali asws, and he had Hasan, Hussein and Zainab from her. Zainab was married to her cousin, Abdullah bin Jafar. And from that marriage, they had Ali, Aun, Akbar, Abbas, Mohammad, Umm Kulthum. Progeny of Fatima is called progeny of Holy Prophet, but only they are attributed to him who is from Hasan and Hussein’s progeny. This is because there is a nas/clear instruction from holy prophet asws about that 

 

القليوبي، شهاب الدين أحمد بن أحمد بن سلامة (متوفاي1069هـ)، حاشية قليوبي على شرح جلال الدين المحلي على منهاج الطالبين، ج 3، ص 236، تحقيق: مكتب البحوث والدراسات، ناشر: دار الفكر، بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1419هـ – 1998م.

 

And Sheikh Mohammad Khidri, who is sunni scholar from Egypt. He says that children of Fatima asws, are 3

زواج علي بفاطمة عليهما السلام. وفي هذه السنة تزوج علي بن أبي طالب وعمره إحدى وعشرون سنة بفاطمة بنت رسول الله، وسنها خمس عشرة سنة، وكان منها عقب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بنوه: الحسن والحسين وزينب

His progeny spread though Fatima asws. and the children left were Hasan, Hussein and Zainab 

الخضري، الشيخ محمد (متوفاي1298هـ)، نور اليقين في سيرة سيد المرسلين، ج 1، ص 111، تحقيق: أحمد محمود خطاب، ناشر: مكتبة الإيمان – المنصورة / مصر، الطبعة: الأولى، 1419هـ – 1999م.

 


Now, some proofs that this is correct.

(1) There is no Sahih/Authentic narration where Zainab and Umm Kulthum have been mentioned together 

There is no authentic narration where these two names have been mentioned together. also, there is no Sahih Narration which say that Umar married daughter of Bibi Fatima, rather they all speak of girl named Umm Kulthum who was there in house of Hazrat Ali asws

 

Just taking proof from opinions of scholars is not hujjat on other person

(2)To whom Abdullah bin Jafar got married?

Ahlusunnah narrated with authentic/sahih sanad that Abdullah bin Jafar married a wife and a daughter of Hazrat Ali asws

Bukhari writes

وَجَمَعَ عبد اللَّهِ بن جَعْفَرٍ بين ابْنَةِ عَلِيٍّ وَامْرَأَةِ عَلِيٍّ.

 

“Abdullah bin Jafar married a daughter and a wife of Hazrat Ali at one time”

 

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، صحيح البخاري، ج 5، ص 1963، كِتَاب النِّكَاحِ، بَاب ما يَحِلُّ من النِّسَاءِ وما يَحْرُمُ، تحقيق د. مصطفى ديب البغا، ناشر: دار ابن كثير، اليمامة – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1407 – 1987.

 

In explanation to this, Some people said that it was Bibi Zainab

Ibn Hajar wrote

وجمع عبد الله بن جعفر بين بنت علي وامرأته أما امرأة علي فهي ليلى بنت مسعود وأما بنته فهي زينب.

 

” Abdullah bin Jafar kept a daughter and a wife of Hazrat Ali together at one time. Wife of Hazrat Ali asws mean Laila bint Masood and Daughter means Zainab”

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، هدي الساري مقدمة فتح الباري شرح صحيح البخاري، ج 1، ص 321، تحقيق: محمد فؤاد عبد الباقي، محب الدين الخطيب، ناشر: دار المعرفة – بيروت – 1379هـ.

And other says it was Umm Kulthum

 

حَدَّثَنَا سعيد حَدَّثَنَا جَرِير بن عَبد الحميد عَن قثم مولى آل العباس قال جمع عَبد الله بن جعفر بين ليلى بنت مَسعود النهشلية وكانت امرأة على وبين أم كلثوم بنت على لفاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فكانتا امرأتيه.

 

Saeed narrates from Jarir from Quthum, he said that Abdullah bin Jafar combined as wives at one time; Lela bint Masood, she was wife of Ali. and Umm Kulthum bint Ali, who was his daughter from Fatima

 

الخراساني، سعيد بن منصور (متوفاي227هـ)، سنن سعيد بن منصور، ج 1، ص 286، ح1011، تحقيق: حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: الدار السلفية – الهند، الطبعة: الأولى، 1403هـ ـ 1982م .

 

Chain is sahih

And Ibn Hajar says after mentioning this narration

وقال بن سيرين لا بأس به وصله سعيد بن منصور عنه بسند صحيح

 

Ibn Seeren writes there is no problem in this and Saeed bin Mansoor narrated it with sahih/authentic sanad

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852 هـ)، فتح الباري شرح صحيح البخاري، ج 9، ص 155، تحقيق: محب الدين الخطيب، ناشر: دار المعرفة – بيروت.

 

Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal said the same

كانت عند عبد الله بن جعفر أم كلثوم بنت علي وليلى بنت مسعود وامرأة علي النهشلية.

 

“Abdullah bin Jafar had Umm Kulthum bint Ali and Lela bint Masood wife of Ali“

 

عبد الله بن أحمد بن حنبل (متوفاي290 هـ)، مسائل أحمد بن حنبل رواية ابنه عبد الله ج 1، ص 349، تحقيق: زهير الشاويش، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1401هـ ـ 1981م .

 

Behqi also wrote the same in two of his books

جمع عبد الله بن جعفر بين ليلى بنت مسعود والنهشلية وكانت امرأة علي وبين أم كلثوم بنت عليلفاطمة فكانتا امرأتيه.

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي458هـ)، معرفة السنن والآثار عن الامام أبي عبد الله محمد بن أدريس الشافعي، ج 5، ص 294، تحقيق: سيد كسروي حسن، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية ـ بيروت.

 

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي458هـ)، سنن البيهقي الكبرى، ج 7، ص 167، ناشر: مكتبة دار الباز – مكة المكرمة، تحقيق: محمد عبد القادر عطا، 1414 – 1994.

 

 

 

__________________________________

 

SCHOLARS OF AHLUSUNNAH AND THEIR REPLY TO THIS ISSUE

 

1- They married one after another 

Ibn Hajar writes

ولا تعارض بين الروايتين في زينب وأم كلثوم لأنه تزوجهما واحدة بعد أخرى مع بقاء ليلى في عصمته.

 

“There is no clash in these narrations in that some of them mention that it was Zainab and other say it was Umm Kulthum. This is because Abdullah married them one after another”

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852 هـ)، فتح الباري شرح صحيح البخاري، ج 9، ص 155، تحقيق: محب الدين الخطيب، ناشر: دار المعرفة – بيروت.

 

This saying of Ibn Hajar can have only two chances

1- He married Zainab first and then Umm Kulthum
2- He married Umm Kulthum first and then Zainab

 

We will speak of the first option later

 

If we take the second option, this will go against what scholars have said. Also, it will have other repercussions. Ahlusunnah say that Umm Kulthum died in era of Imam Hasan. And she should then be counted till that time as wife of Abdullah bin Jafar, and Zainab would marry after that. this is because as per Islamic law, two sister cannot be combined in a marriage. But we know that as per scholars of ahlusunnah, it is established that Zainab was wife of Abdullah in life of Hazrat Ali asws

Abu Bakar Ajari writes

فعجل عليه عبد الله بن جعفر وكانت زينب بنت علي تحته

 

Abdullah bin Jafar, who was husband of Zainab, took steps for killing of Ibn Muljam

 

الآجري، أبي بكر محمد بن الحسين (متوفاي360هـ، الشريعة، ج 4، ص 2108، تحقيق الدكتور عبد الله بن عمر بن سليمان الدميجي، ناشر: دار الوطن – الرياض / السعودية، الطبعة: الثانية، 1420 هـ – 1999 م.

2- HE MARRIED UMM KULTHUM AFTER GIVING DIVORCE TO ZAINAB 

 

Some people said that Abdullah bin Jafar married Umm Kulthum after giving divorce to bibi Zainab

Ibn Hazam Zahiri said

وتزوج أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب، بنت بنت رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – عمر بن الخطاب، فولدت له زيداً لم يعقب، ورقية؛ ثم خلف عليها بعد عمر – رضي الله عنه – عون بن جعفر بن أبي طالب؛ ثم خلف عليها بعده محمد بن جعفر بن أبي طالب؛ ثم خلف عليها بعده عبد الله بن جعفر ابن أبي طالب، بعد طلاقه لأختها زينب

 

Umar married Umm Kulthum daughter of Ali asws, and from that were born Zaid and Roqayya. After Umar, Aun bin Jafar married her and then after her, Abdullah bin Jafar married her after giving divorce to her sister Zainab

إبن حزم الظاهري، علي بن أحمد بن سعيد أبو محمد (متوفاي456هـ)، جمهرة أنساب العرب، ج 1، ص 38، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1424 هـ ـ 2003م

 

However, as per Shia Sunni Narrations, we know that Abdullah bin Jafar married Zainab in lifetime of Imam Ali asws and she remained his wife for the rest of his life, that is, after the martyrdom of Imam Hussein asws

However, it is possible that ahlusunnah may say that Umm Kulthum was reborn ….

Behqi writes

فأما زينب فتزوجها عبد الله بن جعفر فماتت عنده

 

Zainab married Abdullah bin Jafar and remained his wife for the rest of her life

 

البيهقي، أبي بكر أحمد بن الحسين بن علي (متوفاي458هـ)، دلائل النبوة، ج 7، ص 283، طبق برنامه الجامع الكبير؛

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي 458هـ)، سنن البيهقي الكبرى، ج 7، ص 70، الرقم 13201، ناشر: مكتبة دار الباز – مكة المكرمة، تحقيق: محمد عبد القادر عطا، 1414 – 1994؛

 

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 69، ص 176، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

So, claiming that He had divorced her is not correct

 

 

 

3-IS IT THAT HE MARRIED UMM KULTHUM AFTER DEATH OF ZAINAB

 

Aini tried to solve this riddle by saying that 

 

أن ابن جعفر تزوج زينب بنت علي وتزوج معها امرأته ليلى بنت مسعود، وقال ابن سعد: فلما توفيت زينب تزوج بعدها أم كلثوم بنت علي بنت فاطمة، رضي الله تعالى عنهم.

 

Abdullah bin Jafar married Zainab and Laila. Ibn Saad said: When Zainab died, after that he married Umm Kulthum bint Ali

العيني، بدر الدين محمود بن أحمد (متوفاي 855هـ)، عمدة القاري شرح صحيح البخاري، ج 20، ص 101، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت.

 

But if we analyse this statement keeping in view the typical idea that Umm Kulthum had married Umar, and then died in Madina alongwith her son, how can this statement be then correct?

 

Mohammad bin Habeeb Baghdaadi writes in Al Munmiq, and Ibn Asaakir writes in Tareekh Madina damishq, and Sifdi writes in Al Wafi fi al wafiyat that

وقد ذكر بعض أهل العلم أنه وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب رحمة الله عليهم وكانت تحت عبد الله بن جعفر بن أبي طالب عليه مرضاً جميعاً وثقلاً ونزل بهما وأن رجالاً مشوا بينهما لينظروا أيهما يموت قبل صاحبه فيرث منه الآخر وأنهما قبضا في ساعة واحدة ولم يدر أيهما قبض قبل صاحبه فلم يتوارثا.

 

Some people of knowledge said that His mother was Umm kulthum bint Ali, And she was wife of Abdullah bin Jafar; and they both became ill and died at same time from this world. Some people came to their house to see who dies first so that they know how is heir to whom; but they died at same time and people could not know as to who died first, and so their heritage could not be distributed between them

 

Mohammad bin Saad has written three narrations on this topic in Tabaqat

عن عامر عن بن عمر أنه صلى على أم كلثوم بنت علي وابنها زيد وجعله مما يليه وكبر عليهما أربعا

 

Abdullah bin Umar offered funeral prayers with 4 Takbeers on Umm Kulthum daughter of Ali asws and Zaid

أخبرنا وكيع بن الجراح عن زيد بن حبيب عن الشعبي بمثله وزاد فيه وخلفه الحسن والحسين ابنا علي ومحمد بن الحنفية وعبد الله بن عباس وعبد الله بن جعفر.

 

Sho’bi narrates similar to this one, but it has extra part that Hasan, Hussein asws, and their son Ali, and MOhammad bin Hanafiya, Abdullah bin Abbas and Abdullah bin Jafar were there behind him

أخبرنا عبيد الله بن موسى أخبرنا إسرائيل عن السدي عن عبد الله البهي قال شهدت بن عمر صلى على أم كلثوم وزيد بن عمر بن الخطاب فجعل زيدا فيما يلي الإمام وشهد ذلك حسن وحسين.

Abdullah Habi says that I saw Ibn Umar leading prayers on Umm Kulthum and Zaid, and I saw Imam Hasan and Hussein asws in that 

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 464، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

Dhabi wrote in Tareekh Islam that Saeed bin Aas who was cheif of Madina at that time, he led prayers

وقال حماد بن سلمة، عن عمار بن أبي عمار، إن أم كلثوم وزيد بن عمر ماتا فكفنا، وصلى عليهما سعيد بن العاص، يعني إذ كان أمير المدينة.

Hamad bin Salma from Ammar bin abi Ammar who said Umm Kulthum and her son, Zaid died. and they were given Kafan/funeral dress; and Saeed bin Aas led the prayers when he was the chief of Madina 

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، تاريخ الإسلام ووفيات المشاهير والأعلام، ج 4، ص 138، تحقيق د. عمر عبد السلام تدمرى، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – لبنان/ بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1407هـ – 1987م.

And Saeed bin Aas was Chief in era of Mawia and had died in year 59 hijri as per saying of Dhabi

حوادث سنة تسع وخمسين. فيها توفي: سعيد بن العاص الأموي، على الصحيح.

As per Sahih, Saeed bin Aas Umawi died in year 59 hijri 

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، تاريخ الإسلام ووفيات المشاهير والأعلام، ج 4، ص 138، تحقيق د. عمر عبد السلام تدمرى، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – لبنان/ بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1407هـ – 1987م.

So keeping in view this all, Umm Kulthum can marry Abdullah bin Jafar after Zainab only if she gets back to life after death

 

3-ONE SERMON WHICH HAS BEEN ATTRIBUTED TO TWO

 

Interestingly, we find that there is a sermon which has been attributed to both, Zainab and Umm Kulthum

Scholar of 4th century, Ibn Taifoor says in his book Balaghat un Nisa, Abu Saad al Abi in Nathar ud Darar, Ibn Hamdood in Al Tadkhira tul Hamdoniyya; they all mention this sermon attributing it to Umm Kulthum

ورأيت أم كلثوم عليها السلامولم أر خفرة والله أنطق منها كأنما تنطق وتفرغ على لسان أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام وقد أومأت إلى الناس أن اسكتوا فلما سكنت الأنفاس وهدأت الأجراس قالت أبدأ بحمد الله والصلاة والسلام على جدي أما بعد يا أهل الكوفة يا أهل الختر والخذل إلا فلا رفأت العبرة ولا هدأت الرنة إنما مثلكم كمثل التي نقضت غزلها من بعد قوة أنكاثاً.

أبي الفضل بن أبي طاهر المعروف بابن طيفور (متوفاى380 هـ )، بلاغات النساء، ص 24، ناشر: منشورات مكتبة بصيرتي ـ قم و ص 11 طبق برنامه الجامع الكبير.
الآبي، أبو سعد منصور بن الحسين (متوفاي421هـ)، نثر الدر في المحاضرات، ج 4، ص 19، تحقيق: خالد عبد الغني محفوط، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت /لبنان،
الطبعة: الأولى، 1424هـ – 2004م؛

ابن حمدون، محمد بن الحسن بن محمد بن علي (متوفاي608هـ)، التذكرة الحمدونية، ج 6، ص 265، تحقيق: إحسان عباس، بكر عباس، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت،، الطبعة: الأولى، 1996م.

صفوت، أحمد زكي، جمهرة خطب العرب، ج 2، ص 134، ناشر: المكتبة العلمية – بيروت.

 

Where as Sheikh Mufid and others termed it to Bibi Zainab

 

ورأيت زينب بنت علي عليهما السلام ولم أر خفرة قط أنطق منها كأنها تفرغ عن لسان أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام. قال: وقد أومأت إلى الناس أن اسكتوا، فارتدت الأنفاس وسكتت الأصوات فقالت: الحمد لله والصلاة على أبي رسول الله، أما بعد يا أهل الكوفة، ويا أهل الختل والخذل، فلا رقأت العبرة، ولا هدأت الرنة، فما مثلكم إلا ” كالتي نقضت غزلها من بعد قوة أنكاثا، تتخذون أيمانكم دخلا بينكم.

الشيخ المفيد، محمد بن محمد بن النعمان ابن المعلم أبي عبد الله العكبري، البغدادي (متوفاي413 هـ)، الأمالي، ص 322، تحقيق الحسين أستاد ولي – علي أكبر الغفاري، ناشر: دار المفيد للطباعة والنشر والتوزيع – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1414هـ – 1993 م.

 

Similarly, the incident of prohibiting eating Sadaqa by the children of Ahlubait, some said it was said by Zainab, other said it was by Umm Kulthum

وقد اشتهر حكاية منع سيدتنا زينب أو أم كلثوم عليهما السلام للسبايا عن أخذ صدقات أهل الكوفة معللتين بكونها صدقة.

And this incident of stopping of children from eating of Sadaqat of people of Kufa, is famous from Zainab or Umm Kulthum

 

الأنصاري*، الشيخ مرتضي (متوفاي1281 هـ) كتاب الزكاة، ص353، تحقيق: تحقيق: لجنة تحقيق تراث الشيخ الأعظم، ناشر: المؤتمر العالمي بمناسبة الذكرى المئوية الثانية لميلاد الشيخ الأنصاري ـ قم، الطبعة: الأولى، 1415 ه

 

 

 

 

 

 

4- AZADARI OF UMM KULTHUM FOR BIBI FATIMA asws

 

Mohammad bin Fatal Neshaburi says

ثم توفيت صلوات الله عليها وعلى أبيها، وبعلها وبنيها فصاحت أهل المدينة صيحة واحدة واجتمعت نساء بني هاشم في دارها، فصرخن صرخة واحدة كادت المدينة ان تزعزع من صراخهن وهن يقلن: يا سيدتاه يا بنت رسول، واقبل الناس مثل عرف الفرس إلى علي ” عليه السلام ” وهو جالس، والحسن والحسين عليهما السلام بين يديه يبكيان فبكى الناس لبكائهما، وخرجت أم كلثوم وعليها برقعة وتجر ذيلها، متجللة برداء عليها تسحبها وهي تقول: يا أبتاه يا رسول الله، الآن حقا فقدناك فقدا لالقاء بعده ابدا واجتمع الناس فجلسوا، وهم يرجون وينظرون ان تخرج الجنازة، فيصلون عليها وخرج أبو ذر فقال: انصرفوا فإن ابنة رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) قد أخر اخراجها في هذه العشية فقام الناس وانصرفوا.

 

When she (bibi Fatima asws) died, people of Madina started crying and women of Bani Hashim compiled in house of her house and they cried so much that Madina shook due to it. These ladies were saying that: O our leader and O daughter of Prophet asws! . And people were coming to Imam Ali asws in groups and he was sitting alongwith Hasan and Hussein asws, and they were crying. And people were crying because of that. At that time, Umm Kulthum who was having a veil on face and arabic cloak on her head which was touching ground, She came out of home, and she said: O my grand father O Prophet asws! today I have lost your shadow which I will not get again. People combined and sat, and were waiting for the funeral, so that they offer prayers. But Abu Dhar went out of home and said that People should leave since funeral has been delayed till night 

النيسابوري، محمد بن الفتال (متوفاي508هـ)، روضة الواعظين، ص 152، تحقيق: تقديم: السيد محمد مهدي السيد حسن الخرسان، ناشر: منشورات الرضي قم – إيران

 

This narration mentions only Imam Hasan, Hussein and Umm Kulthum as those who were mourning of Bibi Fatima asws, and not Bibi Zainab, where as it is well known that She was the elder daughter. And those who speak of Umm Kulthum as a distinct entity, they also agree that She was born in last days of Holy Prophet asws and so her age at time of death of Bibi Fatima asws would be aounder 2 years, so saying that she was speaking like that, and covering her face, and wearing a cloak, what does that mean? That will make sense only if we agree that She was actually Bibi Zainab

 

 

 

 

5-TO WHOM Imam Ali (s) BECAME A GUEST ON THE NIGHT HE RECEIVED HIT BY SWORD?

 

Many narrations says that Imam Ali asws would become a guest to one of his children on night in Ramadan. Sometimes it would be Imam Hasan, sometimes Imam Hussein asws and sometimes it would be Abdullah bin Jafar. All writers have written that on the night he received hit, he was guest of Umm Kulthum. But whose Wife was she in the list we have mentioned?

Sheikh Mufid wrote in Al Irshad

لما دخل شهر رمضان، كان أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام يتعشى ليلة عند الحسن وليلة عند الحسين وليلة عند عبد الله بن جعفر، وكان لا يزيد على ثلاث لقم، فقيل له في ليلة من تلك الليالي في ذلك، فقال: ” يأتيني أمر الله وأنا خميص، إنما هي ليلة أو ليلتان ” فأصيب عليه السلام في آخر الليل.

When Ramadan would arrive, Amir ul Momineen would spend one night with Imam Hasan asws, one with Imam Hussein asws, one with Abdullah bin Jafar; and he would not eat with more than three bites. One night in Ramadan, he was asked as to why He eats so less? He replied: I like that I meet Allah empty stomach. One or two nights after, he was hit in night 

الشيخ المفيد، محمد بن محمد بن النعمان ابن المعلم أبي عبد الله العكبري، البغدادي (متوفاي413 هـ)، الإرشاد في معرفة حجج الله علي العباد، ج 1، ص 14، تحقيق: مؤسسة آل البيت عليهم السلام لتحقيق التراث، ناشر: دار المفيد للطباعة والنشر والتوزيع – بيروت – لبنان، الطبعة: الثانية، 1414هـ – 1993 م.

And Qutb Rawandi wrote

وكان يفطر في هذا الشهر ليلة عند الحسن، وليله عند الحسين، وليلة عند عبد الله ابن جعفر زوج زينب بنته لأجلها، لا يزيد على ثلاث لقم، فقيل له في ذلك، فقال: يأتيني أمر الله وأنا خميص، إنما هي ليلة أو ليلتان، فأصيب من الليل. وقد توجه إلى المسجد في الليلة التي ضربه الشقي في آخرها، فصاح الإوز في وجهه، فطردهن الناس، فقال: دعوهن فإنهن نوائح.

In this month of ramadan, He would do Iftar on one night with Imam Hasan asws, One with Imam Hussein asws, one with Abdullah bin Jafar husband of Zainab asws, and he wont take more than three bites; On that night, he went to mosque in the last part of night when that cursed one hit him; when ducks started making noise in front of him and people tried to move them away, Imam Ali asws said: Leave them, they are doing noha on me

الراوندي، قطب الدين (متوفاي573هـ)، الخرائج والجرائح، ج 1 ص 201، تحقيق ونشر مؤسسة الإمام المهدي عليه السلام ـ قم، الطبعة: الأولى، 1409هـ.

Scholars of Ahlusunnat have also narrated it like this

كان علي لما دخل رمضان يتعشى ليلة عند الحسن وليلة عند الحسين وليلة عند أبي جعفر لا يزيد علي ثلاث لقم يقول أحب أن يأتيني أمر الله وأنا خميص.

When month of Ramadan would come, He would spend one night with Hasan asws, one with Hussein asws, one with Abu Jafar; and He would not eat more than three bites. He said I love that I get Order of Allah and I am empty stomach 

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ)، أسد الغابة في معرفة الصحابة، ج 4، ص 128، تحقيق عادل أحمد الرفاعي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417 هـ – 1996 م؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ) الكامل في التاريخ، ج 3، ص 254، تحقيق عبد الله القاضي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة الثانية، 1415هـ؛

الزمخشري الخوارزمي، أبو القاسم محمود بن عمرو بن أحمد جار الله (متوفاى538هـ) ربيع الأبرار، ج 1، ص 249؛

النويري، شهاب الدين أحمد بن عبد الوهاب (متوفاي733هـ)، نهاية الأرب في فنون الأدب، ج 3، ص 312، تحقيق مفيد قمحية وجماعة، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1424هـ – 2004م

And then we have some people who said that He was guest of Umm Kulthum on that night

قالت أم كلثوم بنت أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه: لما كانت ليلة تسع عشرة من شهر رمضان قدمت إليه عند إفطاره طبقا فيه قرصان من خبز الشعير وقصعة فيها لبن وملح جريش.

Umm Kulthum said that when 19 Ramadan came, I placed the dining sheet, and placed two breads and milk in a utensil and some salt

المجلسي، محمد باقر (متوفاي 1111هـ)، بحار الأنوار، ج 42 ص 276، تحقيق: محمد الباقر البهبودي، ناشر: مؤسسة الوفاء – بيروت – لبنان، الطبعة: الثانية المصححة، 1403 – 1983 م

Now, how would these narrations be combined? Was it not the routine of Imam Ali asws that he would spend one night in house of Imam Hasan and Imam Hussein (peace be on them) and one in house of Bibi Zainab asws? So where did we get Umm Kulthum at the end? Or we would say that it was one of these houses meaning that It was house Abdullah and here Umm Kulthum means Zainab? and if we accept that she was other then them, why was a night not spared for her?

 

 

 

6-UMM KULTHUM WAS THE BEST DAUGHTER OF IMAM ALI asws

 

Qadi Nauman said in regards to a narration that Umm Kulthum was the best daughter of Imam Ali asws

 

قالت: قال علي عليه السلام يوما لابنته أم كلثوم ـ وكانت خير بناته ـ: يا بنية ما أراني إلا أقل ما أصحبك…..

 

One day Imam Ali asws told his daughter Umm Kulthum, who was his best daughter, Very few days have remained between me and you meeting each other

التميمي المغربي، أبي حنيفة النعمان بن محمد (متوفاي363 هـ)، شرح الأخبار في فضائل الأئمة الأطهار، ج 2 ص 452، تحقيق: السيد محمد الحسيني الجلالي، ناشر: مؤسسة النشر الاسلامي ـ قم، الطبعة: الثانية، 1414 هـ.

But we know that the best daughter of Imam Ali was Bibi Zainab, Aqeela tul Arab

 

 

 

 

7- TO WHOSE DAUGHTER, MAWIA PROPOSED?

 

As per narration of Ahlusunnat, Mawia asked for daughter of Abdullah bin Jafar for Yazid, but Imam Hussein asws interfered and so his plan was spoiled. And Imam married her to Qasim bin Mohammad bin Jafar

 

But who was her mother? This comes in two forms.

1- Umm Kulthum bint Zainab bint Fatima
2- Zainab bint Umm Kulthum bint Fatima

Baladari and Hamwi held this view that she was daughter of Zainab asws

كتب معاوية إلى مروان وهو على المدينة أن يخطب أم كلثوم بنت عبد الله بن جعفر، وأمها زينب بنت علي. وأمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، على ابنه يزيد.

Mawia wrote to Marwaan, who was in cheif of Madina that Umm kulthum bin Abdullah bin Jafar, whose Mother was Zainab bint Ali asws, and her mother was Fatima asws, for his son Yazid

البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ)، أنساب الأشراف، ج 2، ص 127.

And Hamwi wrote

وتحدث الزبيريون أن معاوية كتب إلى مروان بن الحكم وهو والي المدينة أما بعد فإن أمير المؤمنين قد أحب أن يرد الألفة ويسل السخيمة ويصل الرحم فإذا وصل إليك كتابي فاخطب إلى عبد الله بن جعفر ابنته أم كلثوم على يزيد ابن أمير المؤمنين.

And Zubairis wrote that Mawia wrote to Marwan, and he was chief of Madian that: I wish that hatred by ended and and good relations prevail, so after reading this letter, you go to Abdullah bin Jafar, and ask for his daughter Umm Kulthum for my son Yazid

الحموي، أبو عبد الله ياقوت بن عبد الله (متوفاي626هـ)، معجم البلدان، ج 1، ص 469، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت.

But some in ahlusunnah wrote, that she was daughter of Umm Kulthum, and Abdullah bin Jafar

Abu ul Faraj Nehrwani, a scholar of 4th centurty wrote

عن أم بكر بنت المسور بن مخرمة قالت سمعت أبي يقول كتب معاوية إلى مروان وهو على المدينة أن يزوج ابنه يزيد بن معاوية زينب بنت عبد الله بن جعفر وأمها أم كلثوم بنت علي وأم أم كلثوم فاطمة بنت رسول الله.

Umm Bakar bin Masor said that I heard from my father who said that Mawia wrote to Marwan who was chief of Madina to marry Yazid bin Mawia to Zainab bint Abdullah bin jafar, whose mother was Umm Kulthum bint Ali, and her mother was Fatima asws

النهرواني، أبو الفرج المعافى بن زكريا (متوفي390هـ) الجليس الصالح والأنيس الناصح، ج 1، ص 66.

Ibn Asakar also wrote this

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 57، ص 245، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

 

 

8-WHO IS BURIED IN SYRIA

 

Ibn Batoota writes in his Rahla, that the grave of Umm Kulthum bint Ali is near Dimishq, rather than saying Zainab asws

وبقرية قبلي البلد وعلى فرصخ منها مشهد أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب من فاطمة عليهم السلام ويقال أن اسمها زينب وكناها النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أم كلثوم لشبهها بخالتها أم كلثوم بنت الرسول….

Near this city at a distance of One FARSAKH, there is place of Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws, She was from Fatima asws, and it is said that her name is Zainab asws, and her Kuniyya was name by Holy Prophet asws due to resemblance to her aunt Umm Kulthum daughter of Holy Prophet asws

ابن بطوطة، محمد بن عبد الله بن محمد اللواتي أبو عبد الله (متوفاي779 هـ)، تحفة النظار في غرائب الأمصار وعجائب الأسفار (مشهور به رحلة ابن بطوطة )، ج 1، ص 113، تحقيق: د. علي المنتصر الكتاني، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: الرابعة، 1405هـ.

From the saying of Ibn Batoota, we can take this lesson that it is the grave of Umm Kulthum asws which is the kuniyya of Bibi Zainab asws. It cannot be grave of Umm Kulthum asws, because those who agree to her being another daughter, they believe that her grave is in Madina

Hamwi said that this grave is of Umm Kulthum

راوية بكسر الواو وياء مثناة من تحت مفتوحة بلفظ راوية الماء قرية من غوطة دمشق بها قبر أم كلثوم.

الحموي، أبو عبد الله ياقوت بن عبد الله (متوفاي626هـ)، معجم البلدان، ج 3، ص 20، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت.

Ibn Jubair Indalasi wrote in his Travel story, that it is grave of Umm Kulthum asws in Damishq

ومن مشاهد أهل البيت رضى الله عنهم مشهد أم كلثوم ابنة علي بن أبي طالب رضى الله عنهما ويقال لها زينب الصغرى وأم كلثوم كنية اوقعها عليها النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لشبهها بابنته أم كلثوم رضى الله عنها والله اعلم بذلك ومشهدها الكريم بقرية قبلي البلد تعرف براوية على مقدار فرسخ وعليه مسجدكبير وخارجة مساكن وله اوقاف وأهل هذه الجهات يعرفونه بقبر الست أم كلثوم مشينا اليه وبتنا به وتبركنا برؤيته نفعنا الله بذلك.

And in the graves of Ahlulbait, there is grave of Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws, and it is said that she is Zainab ul Sughra, and her kuniyya is Umm Kulthum named so by Holy Prophet asws due to her resemblance to her daughter Umm Kulthum. Allah knows best……

الكناني الأندلسي، أبي الحسين محمد بن أحمد بن جبير (متوفاي614هـ)، رحلة ابن جبير، ج 1، ص 196، تحقيق: تقديم / الدكتور محمد مصطفى زيادة، ناشر: دار الكتاب اللبناني / دار الكتاب المصري – بيروت / القاهرة.

And Abdur Razaq Baitar, a scholar of 14th century wrote that this is the same Umm Kulthum whose name was Zainab asws, and she is the one buried here

راوية، وهي قرية من جهة الشرق إلى القبلة من الشام، بينها وبين الشام نحو ثلاثة أميال، وقد دفن في هذه القرية السيدة زينب أم كلثوم بنت الإمام علي بن أبي طالب، أمها فاطمة الزهراء بنت رسول الله.

Rawia, it is a town in East of Syria which is at distance of 3 miles from Syria. And here is buried Syeda Zainab Umm Kulthum bint Imam Ali and her mother was Fatima asws

البيطار، عبد الرزاق بن حسن بن إبراهيم (متوفاي1335هـ)، حلية البشر في تاريخ القرن الثالث عشر، ج 2، ص 50.

Same thing comes in Tareekh Madina Damishq

مسجد راوية مستجد على قبر أم كلثوم وأم كلثوم هذه ليست بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم التي كانت عند عثمان لأن تلك ماتت في حياة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ودفنت بالمدينة ولا هي أم كلثوم بنت علي من فاطمة التي تزوجها عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله تعالى عنه لأنها ماتت هي وابنها زيد بن عمر بالمدينة في يوم واحد ودفنا بالبقيع….

Mosque of Rawia, it is that mosque which is built on grave of Umm KUlthm asws, and she is not that daughter of Holy Prophet asws….and she was buried in Madina…and she is not Umm Kulthum bint Ali who was married to Umar since she died with her son Zaid bin umar in Madina on same day. and they were buried in Baqi’i
]
ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 2، ص 309، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

 

 

This all points to the fact that Umm Kulthum was famous for Bibi Zainab asws

 

9- WHO ALL GOT CAPTURED FROM AHLUBAIT IN KARBALA?

 

Qadi Nauman Maghrabi wrote names of those who were captured in Karbala, but there is no name of Bibi Zainab

والذين أسروا منهم بعد من قتل منهم يومئذ: علي بن الحسين عليه السلام وكان عليلا دنفا… ومن النساء أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب. وأم الحسن بنت علي بن أبي طالب. وفاطمة. وسكينة ابنتا الحسين بن علي.

And those who were captured after war, there was Ali bin Hussein asws, and he was ill; and in women there was Umm Kulthum bint Ali, Umm Hasan bint Ali bin Abi Talib and Fatima asws, and Sukaina bint Hussein asws

التميمي المغربي، أبي حنيفة النعمان بن محمد (متوفاي363 هـ)، شرح الأخبار في فضائل الأئمة الأطهار، ج 3 ص 198، تحقيق: السيد محمد الحسيني الجلالي، ناشر: مؤسسة النشر الاسلامي ـ قم، الطبعة: الثانية، 1414 هـ .

This again points out to the fact that it was Bibi Zainab asws

 
 

10- HERITAGE OF BIBI FATIMA WAS GIVEN TO UMM KULTHUM ONLY

عن أبي عبد الله، عن آبائه قال: إن فاطمة عليها السلام لما احتضرت أوصت عليا عليه السلام فقالت: إذا أنت مت فتول أنت غسلي، وجهزني وصل على وأنزلني قبري، وألحدني وسو التراب على واجلس عند رأسي قبالة وجهي فأكثر من تلاوة القرآن والدعاء، فإنها ساعة يحتاج الميت فيها إلى انس الاحياء وأنا أستودعك الله تعالى وأوصيك في ولدي خيرا ثم ضمت إليها أم كلثوم فقالت له: إذا بلغت فلها ما في المنزل ثم الله لها.

When the last times of Bibi Fatima asws came, she made this will to Imam Alia sws that once I leave this world, give me bath and offer prayer on me and then put me in grave……………..then she hugged Umm Kulthum and said: When she gets adult, all what is there in this house is hers. 

المجلسي، محمد باقر (متوفاي 1111هـ)، بحار الأنوار، ج 79 ص 27، تحقيق: محمد الباقر البهبودي، ناشر: مؤسسة الوفاء – بيروت – لبنان، الطبعة: الثانية المصححة، 1403 – 1983م.


11- UMAR’S MARRIAGE WITH BIBI ZAINAB

 

Some people from ahlusunnah made this strange claim that he married Bibi Zainab asws

Abdul Hai Katani says

ذكر الشيخ المختار الكنتي في الاجوبة المهمة نقلا عن الحافظ الدميري اعظم صداق بلغنا خبره صداق عمر لما تزوج زينب بنت علي فانه أصدقها اربعين الف دينار فقيل له في ذلك فقال والله ما في رغبة إلى النساء ولاكني سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول كل سبب ونسب ينقطع يوم القيامة الا سببي ونسبي فأردت تاكيد النسب بيني وبينه صلى الله عليه وسلم فأردت أن أتزوج ابنته كما تزوج ابنتي وأعطيت هذا المال العريض اكراما لمصاهرتي اياه صلى الله عليه وسلم. منها هذا مع كون عمر نهى عن المغالات في المهر.

 

Mokhatar katani mentioned this from Damiri that The maximum Mehr which has been heard is that of Umar marrying Zainab, and that was 40000. dinar. When he was asked about it, he replied: By God! I have no liking for women but I have heard from Holy Prophet asws that he said that All relations and lineage will be ended on the day of Qayamat except my relation and lineage. So i wished that my relation to him should strengthen and so i married His daughter like he married my daughters. And I gave this amount for the sake of glory given to me

الكتاني، الشيخ عبد الحي (متوفاي1382هـ)، نظام الحكومة النبوية المسمى التراتيب الإدراية، ج 2، ص 405، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – بيروت.

 

So this is another proof that the two, Umm Kulthum and Zainab asws, were considered one. Though we have already said that it is just a story.

 

 

 

12- UMM KULTHUM asws WAS PRESENT IN KARBALA

 

Those who say that Umm Kulthum and Zainab asws are separate daughters, and they believe that Umm Kulthum died in era of Imam Hasan asws and was buried in Baqi’i. But some books have mentioned that Umm kulthum was present in Karbala long after Imam Hasan’s asws death

Like we find in Balaghat un Nisa

قالت أبدأ بحمد الله والصلاة والسلام على جدي أما بعد يا أهل الكوفة…

 

She said: Praise be to Allah and Salam be on my Grand father, after that; O people of Kufa!

أبي الفضل بن أبي طاهر المعروف بابن طيفور (متوفاى380 هـ )، بلاغات النساء، ص 24، ناشر: منشورات مكتبة بصيرتي ـ قم و ص 11، طبق برنامه الجامع الكبير.

 

And Jamad ud Deen Baghdaadi, a scholar of 6th century, he writes

فظللن ورأس الحسين بينهن مصلوب تسع ساعات من النهار وإن أم كلثوم رفعت رأسها فرأت رأس الحسين فبكت وقالت يا جداه تريد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم هذا رأس حبيبك الحسين مصلوب.

Head of Imam Hussein asws was placed in spear in front of those who were captured for 9 hours, , and when Umm Kuthum raised head, she saw Head if Imam Hussein asws and said: O my Grandfather! This is the head of your beloved Hussein asws on spear

 

البغدادي، جمال الدين أبو الفرج عبد الرحمن بن أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي597هـ)، بستان الواعظين ورياض السامعين، ج 1، ص 264، تحقيق: أيمن البحيري، ناشر: مؤسسة الكتب الثقافية – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1419هـ ـ 1998م.

These narrations are making this point clear that She was present in Karbala, and this points to the fact that She was Zainab asws

CONCLUSION

Keeping in view all these points, We have strong suspicion that Umm Kulthum was a separate entity, rather it points to the fact that this was the Kuniyya of Bibi Zainab. And when we think on these lines, the story which has been created ends since She was wife of Abdullah bin Jafar



 


SCHOLARS OF AHLUSUNNAH SAID THAT AHLUBAIT REJECTED THIS INCIDENT

 

From the writings of scholars of ahlusunnah, it is clarified that there were people in ahlubait who rejected this.

Ibn Hajar writes regarding this marriage after mentioning a weak/daif narration

وفي رواية أخرجها البيهقي والدارقطني بسند رجاله من أكابر أهل البيت أن عليا عزل بناته لولد أخيه جعفر فلقيه عمر رضي الله تعالى عنهما فقال له يا أبا الحسن أنكحني ابنتك أم كلثوم بنت فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال قد حبستها لولد أخي جعفر فقال عمر إنه والله ما على وجه الأرض من يرصد من حسن صحبتها ما أرصد فأنكحني يا أبا الحسن فقال قد أنكحتكها فعاد عمر إلى مجلسه بالروضة مجلس المهاجرين والأنصار فقال رفئوني قالوا بمن يا أمير المؤمنين قال بأم كلثوم بنت علي وأخذ يحدث أنه سمع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول ( كل صهر أو سبب أو نسب ينقطع يوم القيامة إلا صهري وسببي ونسبي ) وأنه كان لي صحبة فأحببت أن يكون لي معها سبب

وبهذا الحديث المروي من طريقة أهل البيت يزداد التعجب من إنكار جماعة من جهلة أهل البيت في أزمنتنا تزويج عمر بأم كلثوم؛ لكن لا عجب لأن أولئك لم يخالطوا العلماء ومع ذلك استولى على عقولهم جهلة الروافض فأدخلوا فيها ذلك فقلدوهم فيه وما دروا أنه عين الكذب ومكابرة للحس إذ من مارس العلم وطالع كتب الأخبار والسنن علم ضرورة أن عليا زوجها له وأن إنكار ذلك جهل وعناد ومكابرة للحس وخبال في العقل وفساد في الدين.

 

This narration which has been mentioned by Darqutni and Behqi with chain which has great Men from ahlulbait that Ali asws had thought of giving his daughter to Son of Jafar. When he met Umar, he said: O Abu ul Hasan! Marry your daughter Umm kulthum asws to me. Ali asws replied that I have kept her for the son of my brother. Umar said that By God! there is none better than me on this Earth, She will be happy. Ali asws said I have married her. Then Umar came to gathering in Mosque having Mohajirs and Ansars, and said: congratulate me on this marriage. People said: Whom have you married? He replied: Umm Kulthum daughter of Ali asws. then he said that I have heard this from Prophet asws that all relations and lineage will end on day of Qayamat except my lineage and relation

This narration has been narrated from ahlubait, and it is so strange that some of them in our era have negated this due to ignorance. But this is not unique/strange since they have not mixed with their scholars and ignorant rafidis have been ruling their minds, and mixed them with themselves, and they are following them. They are not aware that rafidis are liars and rejectors of truth in this case. And who will read the books of narrations and sunnan, he will find that Ali married her and rejecting this is on grounds of ignorance, bias, problem in intellect and issues in religion 

الهيثمي، أبو العباس أحمد بن محمد بن علي ابن حجر (متوفاي973هـ، الصواعق المحرقة على أهل الرفض والضلال والزندقة، ج 2، ص 456، تحقيق عبد الرحمن بن عبد الله التركي – كامل محمد الخراط، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417هـ – 1997م.

 

Interestingly, the narration which has been mentioned by Ibn Hajar; it does not come with these words in Behqi or Darqutni. The only thing which we got was from Seerat Ibn Ishaq with one chain, and in Sunan Darqutni with two Mursal chains, one of which is from Seerat Ibn Ishaq. And the words of those narrations are much different than those mentioned by Ibn Hajar

 

13171 أخبرنا أبو عبد الله الحافظ ثنا الحسن بن يعقوب وإبراهيم بن عصمة قالا ثنا السري بن خزيمة ثنا معلى بن أسد ثنا وهيب بن خالد عن جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه عن علي بن الحسين ح وأخبرنا أبو عبد الله الحافظ ثنا أبو العباس محمد بن يعقوب ثنا أحمد بن عبد الجبار ثنا يونس بن بكير عن بن إسحاق حدثني أبو جعفر عن أبيه علي بن الحسين قال لما تزوج عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه أم كلثوم بنت علي رضي الله عنهم أتى مجلسا في مسجد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بين القبر والمنبر للمهاجرين لم يكن يجلس فيه غيرهم فدعوا له بالبركة فقال أما والله ما دعاني إلى تزويجها إلا أني سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول كل سبب ونسب منقطع يوم القيامة إلا ما كان من سببي ونسبي لفظ حديث بن إسحاق وهو مرسل حسن

 

 

When Umar married Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws, He came to a gathering in Mosque of Prophet between Grave of Prophet asws and Pulpit where Mohajirs were sitting and he said that I have married for one reason only and that is ……….. These are the words of Ibn Ishaq, and it is Mursal Hasan

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي 458هـ)، سنن البيهقي الكبرى، ج 7، ص 63، ناشر: مكتبة دار الباز – مكة المكرمة، تحقيق: محمد عبد القادر عطا، 1414 – 1994.

 

This is very strange that Ibn Hajar used this narration despite the fact that he was aware that it is Mursal, and tried to put this as evidence due to the fact that Name of Shia Imam have been mentioned in the ending of it; and he termed Shias as ignorant for not accepting this narration, where as accepting this narration itself is problematic and putting this as proof upon shias, is worst. But we are not surprised on these wordings of Ibn Hajar, for the place where he had his grooming, They did not take any lesson from Teachings of Ahlulbait asws

 

This insult on members of ahlulbait itself is a proof that he was himself not satisfied with is arguments, else he would not have done this.

 

But what is important to us is the fact that He accepted that there were people in Ahlulbait who rejected this marriage

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2nd ANGLE: UMM KULTHUM WAS DAUGHTER OF IMAM ALI asws OR ABU BAKAR?

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Scholars of ahlusunnah hold this point of view that Umm kulthum was daughter of Imam Ali asws and Bibi Fatima asws. But there are no authentic narrations in this regard in Shia books. All these say is that There was a girl named Umm Kulthum living in house of Imam Ali asws, and Umar bin khitab married her forcefully and then she was brought back by Imam Ali asws to her house

May be someone then say that She was daughter of some other wife of Imam Ali asws, but that needs to be proved. Plus, we have no proof that She was daughter of Bibi Fatima asws

 

There is strong chance that she was daughter of Abu Bakar, and was looked after by Imam Ali asws as per sayings of Scholars of Ahlusunnah

 

1- ACCEPTANCE OF NAUWI, FAMOUS SCHOLAR WHO WROTE EXPLANATION OF SAHIH MUSLIM, THAT UMAR WAS SON-IN-LAW OF ABU BAKAR

 

Some scholars of ahlusunnah have accepted that Umm Kulthum who married Umar, she was daughter of Abu bakar

Mohi ud Deen Nauwi writes in his book Tehzeeb ul Isma that Umar had married daughter of Abu Bakar

 

أختا عائشة: اللتان أرادهما أبو بكر الصديق، رضى الله عنه، بقوله لعائشة: إنما هما أخواك وأختاك، قالت: هذان أخواى، فمن أختاى؟ فقال: ذو بطن بنت خارجة، فإنى أظنها جارية. ذكر هذه القصة فى باب الهبة من المهذب، وقد تقدم بيانهما فى أسماء الرجال فى النوع الرابع فى الأخوة، وهاتان الأختان هما أسماء بنت أبى بكر، وأم كلثوم، وهى التى كانت حملاً، وقد تقدم هناك إيضاح القصة، وأم كلثوم هذه تزوجها عمر بن الخطاب، رضى الله عنه.

 

Ayesha had two sisters which are the one mentioned in talk of Abu Bakar with Ayesha, These were two brothers and two sisters. Ayesha had asked: I have two brothers, but where did I get two sisters from? Abu Bakar replied that the one in womb of daughter of Kharija, I guess she is girld. This is mentioned in chapter of “al haba min al mahdhab”. And they have been mentioned in Isma ur Rijal, and these daughters are Isma bint Abu Bakar, and Umm Kulthum; She is the one in womb of mother, and we have talked of her in incident before. And this Umm Kulthum was the one who married Umar bin Khitaab

النووي، أبو زكريا محيي الدين يحيى بن شرف بن مري (متوفاي676 هـ)، تهذيب الأسماء واللغات، ج 2، ص630، رقم: 1224، تحقيق: مكتب البحوث والدراسات، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1996م.

 

After this important acceptance, the narrative of Marriage of Imam Ali’s daughter with Umar is no more than a story

Where as this marriage suits the historical facts as well, since Abu Bakar and Umar were fast friends, and it is natural for Umar to think of looking after his daughter after his death, and marrying her is a good options

RESEARCH INTO THE SAYING THAT AYESHA REJECTED PROPOSAL OF UMAR

 

But some people would say that Umar had just proposed, and the marriage did not take place, and they have mentioned this in narrations in a manner that it was proposed in such a way that neither ahlusunnah accept that nor shia

 

Scholars of ahlusunnah have narrated that when Umar proposed to daughter of Abu Bakar, Ayesha and Umm Kulthum opposed it due to bad nature of Umar. And Ayesha made Amro bin Aas, famous enemy of Imam Ali asws, as the middle man and he told Umar to marry daughter of Imam Ali asws

وخطب أم كلثوم بنت أبي بكر وهي صغيرة وأرسل فيها إلى عائشة فقالت الأمر إليك فقالت أم كلثوم لا حاجة لي فيه فقالت لها عائشة ترغبين عن أمير المؤمنين قالت نعم إنه خشن العيش شديد على النساء.

فأرسلت عائشة إلى عمرو بن العاص فأخبرته فقال أكفيك فأتى عمر فقال يا أمير المؤمنين بلغني خبر أعيذك بالله منه قال وما هو قال خطبت أم كلثوم بنت أبي بكر قال نعم أفرغبت بي عنها أم رغبت بها عني قال لا واحدة ولكنها حدثة نشأت تحت كنف أم المؤمنين في لين ورفق وفيك غلظة ونحن نهابك وما نقدر أن نردك عن خلق من أخلاقك فكيف بها إن خالفتك في شيء فسطوت بها كنت قد خلفت أبا بكر في ولده بغير ما يحق عليك قال فكيف بعائشة وقد كلمتها قال أنا لك بهاوأدلك على خير منها أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب.

 

 

Umar proposed Umm Kulthum bint Abu bakar, and she was child, and He sent the proposal to Ayesha. She told this to Umm Kulthum, and she replied that I do not need him. Ayesha said: You do not need amir ul momineen? She said: Yes, i do not need him, he is very strict on women. Ayesha sent someone to Amro bin Aas, and told him all. He said he will solve the issue. He went to Umar and said that O Amir ul momineen! I have heard something which i wish is not correct. Umar replied as to what has he heard. Amro said: I have heard you had proposed to daughter of abu bakar? He replied: yes it is like this, do you think she is not suitable for me or i am not suitable for her? Amro said: No it is not like that, but she is child and pampered very much, and even we are afraid of your strictness, and none in us is capable to change your nature…….so i suggest you marry Umm Kulthum daughter of Ali asws rather than daughter of Abu bakar

الطبري، أبي جعفر محمد بن جرير (متوفاي310)، تاريخ الطبري، ج 2، ص 564، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت؛

الأندلسي، احمد بن محمد بن عبد ربه (متوفاي 328هـ)، العقد الفريد، ج 6، ص 99، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1420هـ – 1999م؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ)، الكامل في التاريخ، ج 2، ص 451، تحقيق عبد الله القاضي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة الثانية، 1415هـ.

Will people in ahlusunnah accept that proposal of Umar was so scary that Amr had to seek refuge of Allah, and the same person says that you better marry daughter of Imam Ali……….which means that the respect and care for Abu Bakar and his family should be there……..but there is no such problem when it come to household of Prophet asws and Bibi Fatima asws???

 

Will people in ahlusunnah accept that it is more important “not to disturb soul of abu bakar” as compared to hurting soul of Bibi Fatima asws when there is an authentic narration in books of ahlusunnah not to hurt Fatima asws as it is equal to hurting Holy Prophet asws…. and we do not have anything like that for abu bakar…

 

Do ahlusunnah not narrated from Umar that relatives of Holy Prophet asws are more important than my own relatives?

Will ahlusunnah accept that Umar will think of having mercy for household of abu bakar, but insists for marrying daughter of household of Propheta asws despite knowing his strictness?

 

If people of ahlusunnah are this much adamant on accepting this narration, all these charges will be applied on Umar……….

Shia scholars who are expert in Lineages, also accept opinion of Nauwi, and do not consider wife of umar to be daughter of Imam Ali asws

 

Ayatullah Mar’ashi, who had the lineage of all Ahlulbait, he writes in footnotes of Sharah Ahqaaq ul Haq this opinion, and consider it to be opinion of researchers

هاجرت مع زوجها إلى الحبشة، ثم إلى المدينة المنورة، تزوجها بعد جعفر أبو بكر، فتولدت له منها عدة أولاد منهم أم كلثوم وهي التي رباها أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام وتزوجها الثاني، فكانت ربيته عليه السلام وبمنزلة إحدى بناته، وكان عليه السلام يخاطب محمد بابني وأم كلثوم هذه بنتي، فمن ثم سرى الوهم إلى عدة من المحدثين والمؤرخين فكم لهذه الشبهة من نظير، ومنشأ الأكثر الاشتراك في الاسم أو الوصف، ثم بعد موت أبي بكر تزوجها مولانا علي عليه السلام.

 

She migrated to Habsha with her husband and came back to Madina. After Jafar, she married Abu bakar and gave birth to children which included Umm Kulthum, and Imam Ali asws raised her, and she married Umar. She was the adopted daughter of Imam Ali asws, and was like her daughter. Imam Ali asws called Mohammad bin Abu bakar his son, and Umm Kulthum as his daughter. And that made scholars of hadeeth and history confused and they got in this doubt you saw. There are many such mistakes which happen to due Name or Character being shared. After abu bakar, Imam Ali asws had married her

المرعشي النجفي، آية الله السيد شهاب الدين (متوفاي 1369ش)، شرح إحقاق الحق وإزهاق الباطل، ج 30 ص 315 اشر: منشورات مكتبة آية الله العظمى المرعشي النجفي ـ قم.

 

Question arises that how does this girl came to house of Imam Ali? Naturally when Abu bakar left this world, and some wives of abu bakar married Imam Ali asws, their children also shifted to His house. And Mohammad bin Abu Bakar and Umm Kulthum were amongst them

 

But may be someone raises this doubt that This girl cannot be adopted by Imam Ali asws since as per narrations of ahlusunnah, she was daughter of Habeeba bint Kharija, and she married Khabib bin Isaf, and not Imam Ali asws

We would reply to this by saying that this is another lie on part of researchers of ahlusunnah because they were trying to shut all doors to the truth. But if we raise the curtains, and see the truth, we find that Khabib had died in battle of Yamama in life time of Abu bakar

 

Mohammad bin Habib Baghdaadi wrote

خبيب بن اساف قتل يوم اليمامة.

Khabib bin Isaf died on day of Yamama

البغدادي، أبو جعفر محمد بن حبيب بن أمية (متوفاي245هـ)، المحبر، ج 1، ص 403، طبق برنامه الجامع الكبير.

 

2- ONE NARRATION NARRATED BY TWO DIFFERENT UMM KULTHUM

 

When we search books of Ahlusunnah, we find that there is one narration which they mention, and in one place they say it is narrated by Umm kulthum bint Abu bakar and in other place, they say it is narrated by Umm kulthum bint Ali asws. And this is further proof that these scholars of Ahlusunnah, are all up to confuse people in this regard. Where as in reality, she was daughter of Abu Bakar

Ibn Abi Sheebah writes

حدثنا عفان حدثنا حماد بن سلمة أخبرنا جبر بن حبيب عن أم كلثوم بنت أبي بكر عن عائشة أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم علمها هذا الدعاء اللهم إني أسألك من الخير كله عاجله وآجله ما علمت منه وما لم أعلم وأعوذ بك من الشر كله ما علمت منه وما لم أعلم اللهم إني أسألك من خير ما سألك عبدك ونبيك وأعوذ بك من شر ما عاذ به عبدك ونبيك اللهم إني أسألك الجنة وما قرب إليها من قول أو عمل وأعوذ بك من النار وما قرب إليها من قول أو عمل وأسألك أن تجعل كل قضاء تقضيه لي خيرا.

إبن أبي شيبة الكوفي، أبو بكر عبد الله بن محمد (متوفاي235 هـ)، الكتاب المصنف في الأحاديث والآثار، ج 6، ص 44، ح29345، تحقيق: كمال يوسف الحوت، ناشر: مكتبة الرشد – الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1409هـ؛

الشيباني، أحمد بن حنبل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي241هـ)، مسند أحمد بن حنبل، ج 6، ص 133، ناشر: مؤسسة قرطبة – مصر؛

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، الأدب المفرد، ج 1، ص 222، تحقيق: محمد فؤاد عبدالباقي، ناشر: دار البشائر الإسلامية – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1409 – 1989م.

 

And Ishaq bin Rahwia narrate it like this

أخبرنا النضر نا شعبة نا جبر بن حبيب قال سمعت أم كلثوم بنت علي تحدث عن عائشة أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ليكلمه في حاجة وعائشة تصلي فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يا عائشة عليك بالجوامع والكوامل قولي اللهم إني أسألك من الخير كله عاجله وآجله ما عملت منه وما لم أعلم وأعوذ بك من الشر كله عاجله وآجله ما عملت منه وما لم أعلم اللهم إني أسألك الجنة وما قرب إليها من قول أو عمل وأعوذ بك من النار وما قرب إليها من قول أو عمل اللهم إني أسألك مما سألك منه محمد وأعوذ بك مما استعاذ منه محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم اللهم ما قضيت لي من قضاء فاجعل عاقبته لي رشدا

الحنظلي، إسحاق بن إبراهيم بن مخلد بن راهويه (متوفاي238هـ)، مسند إسحاق بن راهويه، ج 2، ص 590، ح1165، تحقيق: د. عبد الغفور بن عبد الحق البلوشي، ناشر: مكتبة الإيمان – المدينة المنورة، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ – 1991م.

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3rd ANGLE: CONTRADICTIONS IN NARRATIONS REGARDING THIS NARRATION

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One of the greatest proofs for this incident being a lie and fabrication is the contradictions which are present in those narrations which speak of it. And these are so much that any intellectual mind will doubt this incident, and be sure that it is actually fabrication

Sheikh Mufid speaks about this and says

والحديث بنفسه مختلف، فتارة يروى: أن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام تولى العقد له على ابنته. وتارة يروى أن العباس تولى ذلك عنه. وتارة يروى: أنه لم يقع العقد إلا بعد وعيد من عمر وتهديد لبني هاشم. وتارة يروى أنه كان عن اختيار وإيثار.
ثم إن بعض الرواة يذكر أن عمر أولدها ولدا أسماه زيدا. وبعضهم يقول: إنه قتل قبل دخوله بها. وبعضهم يقول: إن لزيد بن عمر عقبا. ومنهم من يقول: إنه قتل ولا عقب له. ومنهم من يقول: إنه وأمه قتلا. ومنهم من يقول: إن أمه بقيت بعده. ومنهم من يقول: إن عمر أمهر أم كلثوم أربعين ألف درهم. ومنهم من يقول: مهرها أربعة آلاف درهم. ومنهم من يقول: كان مهرها خمسمائة درهم.
وبدو هذا الاختلاف فيه يبطل الحديث، فلا يكون له تأثير على حال.

And in this narration, there are many contradictions. Sometimes the narrations says that Amir ul Momineen was the guardian in this marriage, where others say that Abbas was the guardian in this. Some say that it did not took place but when Umar had threatened Bani Hashim. Where as other says that it was done by choice and care.

 

Some narrators say that Umar had a son in this and he named him Zaid. Others say that Umar was killed before he consumed this marriage. Others say that Zaid had children as well. Others say that Zaid had no children. Some say that Zaid and his mother died together. Others says that His mother lived after him. Some says that Umar had kept Mehr of Umm Kulthum 40,000 dirham. Others say that 4,000 dirhan where as other say it was 5oo dirham.

 

And these all differences make this narration null and void, and this narration leaves no effect

الشيخ المفيد، محمد بن محمد بن النعمان ابن المعلم أبي عبد الله العكبري، البغدادي (متوفاي413 هـ)، المسائل السروية، ص 90، تحقيق: صائب عبد الحميد، ناشر: دار المفيد للطباعة والنشر والتوزيع – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1414هـ – 1993م.

Since the differences are too much, we will just point a few in regards to ahlusunnah

1- AFTER UMAR, WHOM DID UMM KULTHUM MARRY?

 

 

Scholars of Ahlusunnah were aware that She lived after Umar, and so they have said that she did marry different men

The first of them who said so was Ibn Saad, he wrote this in his book without taking into consideration the contradictions which were there

he writes

أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي وأمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله وأمها خديجة بنت خويلد بن أسد بن عبد العزى بن قصي تزوجها عمر بن الخطاب وهي جارية لم تبلغ فلم تزل عنده إلى أن قتل وولدت له زيد بن عمر ورقية بنت عمر ثم خلف على أم كلثوم بعد عمر عون بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب فتوفي عنها ثم خلف عليها أخوه محمد بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب فتوفي عنها فخلف عليها أخوه عبد الله بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بعد أختها زينب بنت علي بن أبي طالب.

Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws………Umar married her when she was child, and She remained with him till his death. Zaid and Roqayya were born from this marriage. After Umar, she married Aun bin Jafar, then Mohammad bin jafar, and when MOhammad bin Jafar died, she married Abdullah bin Jafar after Zainab asws

 

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 463، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت؛

البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ)، أنساب الأشراف، ج 1، ص 178.

 

This narration tells us that Umm Kulthum married her cousin Aun after death of Umar, and then Mohammad followed by Abdullah. But the narrator had forgotten that Aun and Mohammad had died in year 16 or 17 hijri in battle of Tastar, and this was before Umar was killed, in essence meaning that they died in lifetime of Umar. Which means that her 2nd and 3rd husband died before her first husband

 

Ibn Hajar said in al Isaba

استشهد عون بن جعفر في تستر وذلك في خلافة عمر وما له عقب.

Aun bin Jafar got martyred in battle of Tastar, and that was in caliphate of Umar, and he had no children left

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 4، ص 744، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

Interestingly, Ibn Hajar wrote in this same book in another place

محمد بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب… أنه كان يكنى أبا القاسم وأنه تزوج أم كلثوم بنت علي بعد عمر قال واستشهد بتستر.

Mohammad bin Jafar….His kuniyyat was Abu ul Qasim, and he married Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws after Umar, and he died in Tastar

العسقلاني، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل الشافعي، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 6، ص 7768، رقم: 7769، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

Some people say that “No man has a good enough memory to make a successful liar” {Abraham Lincoln}. If Aun bin jafar and Mohammad bin Jafar had died in Battle of Tastar, how did they marry Umm Kulthum then?

 

And her marriage to Abdullah was not possible since He was husband of Zainab asws, and two sisters cannot be combined in marriage at one time. And she remained alive even after Karbala

 

And even this does not stand by the standards of ahlusunnah that Abdullah would have married Umm Kulthum after Zainab, since they think that She had died in era of Imam Hasan asws

 

Some scholars of ahlusunnah have understood this point, and they simple said that Umm Kulthum married Abdullah bin Jafar to avoid Aun and Mohammad altogether

ثم هلك عمر عن أم كلثوم فتزوجها عبد الله بن جعفر فلم تلد منه.

When Umar died, Umm Kulthum married Abdullah bin Jafar, but no children were born

الزبير بن بكار بن عبد الله بن مصعب الزبيري أبو عبد الله (متوفي256هـ)، المنتخب من كتاب أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، ج 1، ص 31، تحقيق: سكينة الشهابي، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1403هـ.

But we already know that Bibi Zainab married Abdullah in lifetime of Imam Ali asws, and remained his wife

2- HER AGE AT THE TIME OF MARRIAGE

 

There are lot of differences in regards to her age at the time of marriage.

1- Some scholars made her a child in order to protect the honour of Umar when he kissed her, hugged her and exposed her thighs. They said her age was such that she could not be “aroused”

Ibn Hajar Haithmi said in al Sawaiq ul Moharriqa

وتقبيله وضمه لها على جهة الإكرام لأنها لصغرها لم تبلغ حدا تشتهى حتى يحرم ذلك….

And kissing and hugging was for the sake of respect since she was a child and had not reached the level where she would be aroused, and this be haram/prohibited for Umar

الهيثمي، أبو العباس أحمد بن محمد بن علي ابن حجر (متوفاي973هـ)، الصواعق المحرقة على أهل الرفض والضلال والزندقة، ج 2، ص 457، تحقيق عبد الرحمن بن عبد الله التركي – كامل محمد الخراط، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417هـ – 1997م.

2- Others said that she was a child who would play with other children 

Abdur Razaq Sana’ani said that she was a child who played with others

تزوج عمر بن الخطاب أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب وهي جارية تلعب مع الجواري….

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 6، ص 164، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.

Mohammad bin Saad also wrote that she was a child who had not reached adulthood

تزوجها عمر بن الخطاب وهي جارية لم تبلغ.

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 463، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

And other narration said that she was a Sabiyya, which means child of very less age

لما خطب عمر بن الخطاب إلى علي ابنته أم كلثوم قال يا أمير المؤمنين إنها صبية.

When Umar asked for her, Ali asws replied: she is a sabiyya

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 464، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

Ibn Asaakar and Ibn Jauzi also mentioned this 

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من
الأماثل، ج 19، ص 485، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

ابن الجوزي، أبو الفرج عبد الرحمن بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 597 هـ)، المنتظم في تاريخ الملوك والأمم، ج 4، ص 237، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1358.

Baladari, Ibn Abdul bar, and Zamkhashari said that she was a Sagheera, meaning of less age

خطب عمر بن الخطاب أم كلثوم بنت علي – رضي الله تعالى عنهم – فقال: إنها صغيرة.

When Umar asked for Umm Kulthum, Ali asws said she is Sagheera

البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ)، أنساب الأشراف، ج 1، ص 296؛

القرطبي، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبد البر (متوفاي463 هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1954، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ؛

الزمخشري الخوارزمي، أبو القاسم محمود بن عمرو بن أحمد جار الله (متوفاى538هـ) ربيع الأبرار، ج 1، ص
468.

Ibn Jauzi said that this marriage took place in 17 Hijri and at that time, she had not reached adulthood

وفي هذه السنة (17هـ) تزوج عمر رضي الله عنه أم كلثوم بنت علي رضي الله عنه… فزوجها إياه ولم تكن قد بلغت فدخل بها في ذي القعدة ثم ولدت له زيدا.

ابن الجوزي، أبو الفرج عبد الرحمن بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 597 هـ)، المنتظم في تاريخ الملوك والأمم، ج 4، ص 237، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1358.


3- 10 Years or more

 

And when they have to prove that she gave birth to children, these scholars of ahlusunnah change stance and say that her age was 10 or more

أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب الهاشمية أمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولدت في أواخر عهد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وتزوجها عمر بن الخطاب ولها عشر سنين أو أكثر فولدت له زيدا وماتت هي وابنها زيد في يوم واحد

Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws….She was born in last era of Holy Prophet asws, Umar married her when her age was 10 or more. She became mother of Zaid and mother and son died on same day 

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852 هـ)، الإيثار بمعرفة رواة الآثار ج 1، ص 211، 328، تحقيق: سيد كسروي حسن، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1413هـ.

Dhabi says that she was born in 6th hijri

أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم الهاشمية شقيقة الحسن والحسين ولدت في حدود سنة ست من الهجرة ورأت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ولم ترو عنه شيئا. خطبها عمر بن الخطاب وهي صغيرة.

Umm Kulthum, sister of Hasan and Husseina sws, she was born in 6th hijri, She saw Holy Prophet asws but did not narrate ahadeeth. Umar proposed her when she was a child

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، سير أعلام النبلاء، ج 3، ص 500، تحقيق: شعيب الأرناؤوط، محمد نعيم العرقسوسي، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: التاسعة، 1413هـ.

So, if we accept this, then her age in 17 or 18 hijri was 11 or 12 years

Dhabi writes in another place as well that she was Sagheera

أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب الهاشمية. ولدت في حياة جدها صلى الله عليه وسلم، وتزوجها عمر وهي صغيرة.

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، تاريخ الإسلام ووفيات المشاهير والأعلام، ج 4، ص 137، تحقيق د. عمر عبد السلام تدمرى، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – لبنان/ بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1407هـ – 1987م.

And as per Ibn Saad, she was Sabiyya and not reached Adulthood, how can that be accepted then?

3- AMOUNT OF HER MEHER AT TIME OF MARRIAGE

There is difference in this case as well, like we have in so many casesl

1- 10,000 dinar

Yaqoobi said in his history

فتزوجها وأمهرها عشرة آلاف دينار.

She married and her meher was 10,000 dinar

اليعقوبي، أحمد بن أبي يعقوب بن جعفر بن وهب بن واضح (متوفاي292هـ، تاريخ اليعقوبي، ج2، ص150، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

2- 40,000 dinar

لما تزوج زينب بنت علي فانه أصدقها اربعين الف دينار.

الكتاني، الشيخ عبد الحي (متوفاي1382هـ)، نظام الحكومة النبوية المسمى التراتيب الإدراية، ج 2، ص 405، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – بيروت.

3- 40,000 Dirham

Many scholars said it was 40,000 dirham

أن عمر تزوج أم كلثوم على أربعين ألف درهم

إبن أبي شيبة الكوفي، أبو بكر عبد الله بن محمد (متوفاي235 هـ)، الكتاب المصنف في الأحاديث والآثار، ج 3، ص 494، تحقيق: كمال يوسف الحوت، ناشر: مكتبة الرشد – الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1409هـ؛

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 463، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت؛

إبن عبد البر، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد (متوفاي463هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1955، تحقيق علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ؛

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 8، ص 293، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

Apart from the differences in narration in regards to amount of Mehr, there is another problem in this as well, and that is, Umar himself prohibited from keeping high Meher

Ibn Maja writes

حدثنا أبو بَكْرِ بن أبي شَيْبَةَ ثنا يَزِيدُ بن هَارُونَ عن بن عَوْنٍ ح وحدثنا نَصْرُ بن عَلِيٍّ الْجَهْضَمِيُّ ثنا يَزِيدُ بن زُرَيْعٍ ثنا بن عَوْنٍ عن مُحَمَّدِ بن سِيرِينَ عن أبي الْعَجْفَاءِ السُّلَمِيِّ قال قال عُمَرُ بن الْخَطَّابِ لَا تُغَالُوا صَدَاقَ النِّسَاءِ فَإِنَّهَا لو كانت مَكْرُمَةً في الدُّنْيَا أو تَقْوًى عِنْدَ اللَّهِ كان أَوْلَاكُمْ وَأَحَقَّكُمْ بها مُحَمَّدٌ صلى الله عليه وسلم ما أَصْدَقَ امْرَأَةً من نِسَائِهِ ولا أُصْدِقَتْ امْرَأَةٌ من بَنَاتِهِ أَكْثَرَ من اثْنَتَيْ عَشْرَةَ أُوقِيَّةً وَإِنَّ الرَّجُلَ لَيُثَقِّلُ صَدَقَةَ امْرَأَتِهِ حتى يَكُونَ لها عَدَاوَةٌ في نَفْسِهِ وَيَقُولُ قد كَلِفْتُ إِلَيْكِ عَلَقَ الْقِرْبَةِ أو عَرَقَ الْقِرْبَةِ وَكُنْتُ رَجُلًا عَرَبِيًّا مَوْلِدًا ما أَدْرِي ما عَلَقُ الْقِرْبَةِ أو عَرَقُ الْقِرْبَةِ.

Umar said that Meher should not be kept high, for if it was a glory in this world or a sign of Taqwa in view of Allah, then the most deserving out of this was Mohammad asws. He did not keep Meher of any of his wives or daughters more than 12 Auqia. And when Man keeps meher of his wife high, It creates hatred in his heart, and he says that I had to work hard for you so that I had to lift rope of water bottle or sweated like water of water bottle. Abu ul A’jafa said that I was not arab and so could not understand the meaning of A’laq ul Qarba or Araq ul Qarba
!!!
القزويني، محمد بن يزيد أبو عبدالله (متوفاي275هـ)، سنن ابن ماجه، ج 1، ص 607، ح1887، بَاب ضَرْبِ النِّسَاءِ، تحقيق محمد فؤاد عبد الباقي، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت.

Albany counted this as Sahih in Sahih bin Maja, 1532

And Abu Daood said

حدثنا محمد بن عُبَيْدٍ ثنا حَمَّادُ بن زَيْدٍ عن أَيُّوبَ عن مُحَمَّدٍ عن أبي الْعَجْفَاءِ السُّلَمِيِّ قال خَطَبَنَا عُمَرُ رَحِمَهُ الله فقال ألا لَا تُغَالُوا بِصُدُقِ النِّسَاءِ فَإِنَّهَا لو كانت مَكْرُمَةً في الدُّنْيَا أو تَقْوَى عِنْدَ اللَّهِ لَكَانَ أَوْلَاكُمْ بها النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ما أَصْدَقَ رسول اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم امْرَأَةً من نِسَائِهِ ولا أُصْدِقَتْ امْرَأَةٌ من بَنَاتِهِ أَكْثَرَ من ثِنْتَيْ عَشْرَةَ أُوقِيَّةً

Umar deliverd a sermon and said: do not keep Meher of women hight; if it was a sign of glory in this world or taqwa in view of Allah,, the most deserving of them was Holy Prophet asws, and he did not keep Meher of any of his wives or daughters more than 12 auqia

السجستاني الأزدي، سليمان بن الأشعث أبو داود (متوفاي275هـ)، سنن أبي داود، ج 2، ص 235، ح2106، تحقيق: محمد محيي الدين عبد الحميد، ناشر: دار الفكر.

Albany terms it sahih in his Sahih Abi daood, number 1852

And tirmidh mentioned this narration and termed it Sahih

حدثنا بن أبي عُمَرَ حدثنا سُفْيَانُ بن عُيَيْنَةَ عن أَيُّوبَ عن بن سِيرِينَ عن أبي الْعَجْفَاءِ السُّلَمِيِّ قال قال عُمَرُ بن الْخَطَّابِ ألا لَا تُغَالُوا صَدُقَةَ النِّسَاءِ فَإِنَّهَا لو كانت مَكْرُمَةً في الدُّنْيَا أو تَقْوَى عِنْدَ اللَّهِ لَكَانَ أَوْلَاكُمْ بها نَبِيُّ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ما عَلِمْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم نَكَحَ شيئا من نِسَائِهِ ولا أَنْكَحَ شيئا من بَنَاتِهِ على أَكْثَرَ من ثِنْتَيْ عَشْرَةَ أُوقِيَّةً.
قال أبو عِيسَى هذا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ وأبو الْعَجْفَاءِ السُّلَمِيُّ اسْمُهُ هَرِمٌ وَالْأُوقِيَّةُ عِنْدَ أَهْلِ الْعِلْمِ أَرْبَعُونَ دِرْهَمًا وَثِنْتَا عَشْرَةَ أُوقِيَّةً أربعمائة وَثَمَانُونَ دِرْهَمًا

الترمذي السلمي، محمد بن عيسى أبو عيسى (متوفاي 279هـ)، سنن الترمذي، ج 3، ص 422، ح1114، تحقيق: أحمد محمد شاكر وآخرون، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت.

And Sayooti said in Jami’i ul Ahadeeth

عن مسروقٍ قَالَ: رَكِبَ عُمَرُ بنُ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ المِنْبَرَ ثُمَّ قَالَ: أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ مَا إِكْثَارُكُمْ في صِدَاقِ النسَاءِ وَقَدْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَأَصْحَابُهُ وَإِنَّمَا الصدَاقُ فِيمَا بَيْنَهُمْ أَرْبَعُمَائَةُ دِرْهَمٍ فَمَا دُونَ ذالِكَ، فَلَوْ كَانَ الإِكْثَارُ في ذالِكَ تَقْوَى عِنْدَ اللَّهِ أَوْ مَكْرُمَةً لَمْ تَسْبِقُوهُمْ إِلَيْهَا ) ( ص، ع ).

Masrooq narrates that Umar delivered a sermon and said: O people! what has happened to you when you keep Meher of your wives hight where as Holy Prophet asws and his companions kept it 400 or less

السيوطي، جلال الدين عبد الرحمن بن أبي بكر (متوفاي911هـ)، جامع الاحاديث (الجامع الصغير وزوائده والجامع الكبير)، ج 14، ص 271، ح3318.

So on this ground, we see that the Meher, whatever amount it was, was against the teachings of Holy Prophet asws

Also, it was against what Umar was preaching as well. If we accept that he kept the meher high, he will be Target of the verse

يَأَيهَُّا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لِمَ تَقُولُونَ مَا لَا تَفْعَلُونَ. كَبرَُ مَقْتًا عِندَ اللَّهِ أَن تَقُولُواْ مَا لَا تَفْعَلُون‏. الصف / 2 و 3.

O those who brought faith! do not say what you cannot do. This is what Allah dislikes that you say what you are not doing yourself

4- DID SHE GIVE BIRTH TO CHILDREN?

Another doubtful thing in this “marriage full of doubts”, is the fact that there is doubt in the fact if she gave birth to children. Some say that she did not give birth at all. Others say there was a son named Zaid. Still others say that there was Zaid and Roqayya; and yet others add Fatima to the list as well

1- She did not give birth at all

Masoodi Shafai says

أولاد عمر. وكان له من الولد: عبد اللّه، وحفصة زوج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، وعاصم، وعبيد اللّه، وزيد، من أًم، وعبد الرحمن، وفاطمة، وبنات آخر، وعبد الرحمن الأصغر – وهو المحدود في الشراب، وهو المعروف بأبي شحمة – من ام.

Children of Umar, and they included: Abdullah, Hafsa, Asim, Ubaidullah, Zaid from where from same mother; Abdur Rehman, fatima, and other daughters and Abdur rehman asghar, he is the one who was punished for drinking wine and known by the name of Abu Shahma, are from other mother

المسعودي، أبو الحسن على بن الحسين بن على (متوفاى346هـ)، مروج الذهب، ج 1، ص 299

So, as per this, Umar had one son named Zaid, and his brothers were Asim and Abdullah, and there mother was Umm Kulthum bin Jarol. And he did not mention anything from Umm Kulthum bint Ali

2- Only One Son

Many in ahlusunnah have mentioned only one son

Behqi writes in Sunan Kubra

وأما أم كلثوم فتزوجها عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه فولدت له زيد بن عمر ضرب ليالي قتال بن مطيع ضربا لم يزل ينهم له حتى توفي ثم خلف على أم كلثوم بعد عمر عون بن جعفر فلم تلد له شيئا حتى مات.

Umm Kulthum married Umar from whom was born Zaid bin Umar. In a fight in night, he was hit by Ibn Mati’i in such a way that he had the pain till he died. Umm Kulthum married Aun bin Jafar and not children were born till she died

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي 458هـ)، سنن البيهقي الكبرى، ج 7، ص 70، ناشر: مكتبة دار الباز – مكة المكرمة، تحقيق: محمد عبد القادر عطا، 1414 – 1994.

And Nauweri writes

وتزوج أم كلثوم عمر بن الخطاب فولدت له زيد بن عمر، ثم خلف عليها بعده عون بن جعفر فلم تلد له حتى مات.

Umm Kulthum married Umar, and Zaid bin Umar was born, after that she married Aun bin Jafar but no children were born till she died

النويري، شهاب الدين أحمد بن عبد الوهاب (متوفاي733هـ)، نهاية الأرب في فنون الأدب، ج 18، ص 142، تحقيق مفيد قمحية وجماعة، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1424هـ – 2004م.

And Safdi also mentioned only one son

وأم كلثوم تزوجها عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه فولدت له زيدا.

الصفدي، صلاح الدين خليل بن أيبك (متوفاي764هـ)، الوافي بالوفيات، ج 1، ص 79، تحقيق أحمد الأرناؤوط وتركي مصطفى، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث – بيروت – 1420هـ- 2000م.

And ibn Kather also wrote this

وأما أم كلثوم فتزوجها أمير المؤمنين عمر بن الخطاب فولدت له زيدا ومات عنها فتزوجت بعده ببني عمها جعفر واحدا بعد واحد….

Umm Kulthum married Umar from whom was born Zaid bin Umar. And after that, Umm Kulthum married Jafar’s sons, one after another 

القرشي الدمشقي، إسماعيل بن عمر بن كثير أبو الفداء (متوفاي774هـ)، البداية والنهاية، ج 5، ص 293، ناشر: مكتبة المعارف – بيروت.

3- Two children

Many in ahlusunnah wrote that there were two children

وزيد الأكبر لا بقية له ورقية وأمهما أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم وأمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله.

And Zaid Akbar, he had no children; and Roqayya, and their mother was Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws…

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 3، ص 265، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت؛

الزبيري، أبو عبد الله المصعب بن عبد الله بن المصعب (متوفاي 236هـ)، نسب قريش، ج 10، ص 349، تحقيق: ليفي بروفسال، القاهرة، ناشر:دار المعارف؛

التميمي البستي، محمد بن حبان بن أحمد أبو حاتم (متوفاي354 هـ)، الثقات، ج 2، ص 144، تحقيق السيد شرف الدين أحمد، ناشر: دار الفكر، الطبعة: الأولى، 1395هـ – 1975م؛

الطبري، أبي جعفر محمد بن جرير (متوفاي310)، تاريخ الطبري، ج 2، ص 564، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ) الكامل في التاريخ، ج 2، ص 450، تحقيق عبد الله القاضي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة الثانية، 1415هـ.

4- Three children 

Baladari mentions two sisters for Zain in Ansaab ul Ashraaf

عبد الرحمن بن زيد بن الخطاب: كانت تحته فاطمة بنت عمر، وأمها أم كلثوم، بنت علي بن أبي طالب، وجدتها فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم،وأخوها لأبيها وأمها زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب، فولدت لعبد الرحمن: عبدَ الله وابنةً. وإبراهيم بن نعيم النحام بن عبد الله بن أسيد بن عبد بن عوف بن عبيد بن عويج بن عدي بن كعب، كانت عنده رقية بنت عمر، أخت حفصة لأبيها، وأمها: أم كلثوم بنت علي.


البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ)، أنساب الأشراف، ج 1، ص 189.

5- Zaid: Son or Brother of Umar?

Another confusion follows when we read this saying of Ibn Asaakr who said that Umm Kulthum was mother of Abdul Hameed son of Abdur Rehman son of Zaid son of Khitaab, whose mother was Umm Kulthum bint Ali. this narration makes Him a brother of Umar

وحدثني عمر بن أبي بكر المؤملي حدثني سعيد بن عبد الكبير عن عبد الحميد بن عبد الرحمن بن زيد بن الخطاب وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب وكان سبب ذلك أن حربا وقعت فيما بين عدي بن كعب.

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 19، ص 487، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

6- Zaid Asghar was elder than Zaid Akbar

Another important confusion highlighted in this “marriage of confusion and doubts” is the fact pointed out by scholars of ahlusunnah who said that Umar had two sons named Zaid; one was from Umm Kulthum bin Jardal and other from Umm Kulthum bint Ali. Bint Jardal was his wife in era of ignorance and when He brought eman, she got separated and married someone else

وأمُّ عبيد الله أم كلثوم: واسمها مليكة بنت جرول الخزاعية، وكانت على شركها حين نزلت «ولا تمسكوا بعصم الكوافر» فطلقها عمر فتزوجها أبو فهم بن حذيفة صاحب الخميصة، وقد تقدم ذكره في أول الكتاب.

Ubaid ullah’s mother Umm kulthum, her name was Malika bint Jardal khazai. When this verse was revealed «ولا تمسكوا بعصم الكوافر», she remained kafir, so Umar divorced her and she married Ibn Hudaifa

الانصاري التلمساني، محمد بن أبي بكر المعروف بالبري (متوفاي644هـ) الجوهرة في نسب النبي وأصحابه العشرة، ج 1، ص 258.

Ibn Hajar writes

زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب القرشي العدوي شقيق عبد الله بن عمر المصغر أمهما أم كلثوم بنت جرول كانت تحت عمر ففرق بينهما الإسلام لما نزلت ولاتمسكوا بعصم الكوافر فتزوجها أبو الجهم بن حذيفة وكان زوجها قبله عمر ذكر ذلك الزبير وغيره فهذا يدل على أن زيدا ولد في عهد النبي.

Zaid bin Umar, brother of Ubaid ullah bin Umar Asghar, his mother was Umm Kulthum bint Jarol, she was wife of Umar and there was separation when the verse, then she married Abu Jahm, and before this she was wife of Umar. this is mentioned by Zubair etc, and this is proof that Zaid was born in era of Prophet asws

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 2، ص 628، رقم: 2961، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

The main point in this case is that Zaid, son of Umm Kulthum bint Jarol, he was called ASGHAR and the one born from Bint Ali was called ZAID AKBAR. This is strange in deed that the one born before was called Asghar

Scholars of ahlusunnah did not get this point, and they mentioned

وزيد الأكبر ورقية وأمهم أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب وأمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وزيد الأصغر وعبيدالله وأمهما أم كلثوم بنت جرول. وفرق الإسلام بين عمر وبين أم كلثوم بنت جرول

Zaid Akbar, Roqayya, and their mother was daughter of Alia sws. and Zaid Asghar, Ubaidullah, and their mother was Umm Kulthum daughter of jarol. ….

ابن الجوزي، أبو الفرج عبد الرحمن بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 597 هـ)، المنتظم في تاريخ الملوك والأمم، ج 4، ص 131، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1358.

From this, we get that Umm Kulthum was daughter of Abu Bakar, and Zaid bin Umar was son of Umm Kulthum bint Jarol, and not from Umm Kulthum bint Ali. However, scholars of ahlusunnah have included another Umm Kulthum in wives of Umar as well

A’smi Makki writes

والرابع عاصم أمه أم كلثوم جميلة بنت عاصم بن ثابت بن أبى الأفلح حمى الدبر.

Asim, whose mother was Umm Kulthum Jamila bint Asim bin thabit…

العاصمي المكي، عبد الملك بن حسين بن عبد الملك الشافعي (متوفاي1111هـ)، سمط النجوم العوالي في أنباء الأوائل والتوالي، ج 2، ص 508، تحقيق: عادل أحمد عبد الموجود- علي محمد معوض، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية.

So, if we now count, 4 umm kulthum have been attributed to Umar

1- daughter of jarol
2- daughter of abu bakar
3- daughter of asim bin thabit
4- daughter of Imam Ali asws

So, we can say that the last one was added on the basis of resemblance in name

7- Umar married his daughter Roqayya

 

And if this all is not enough, scholars of ahlusunnah moved one step ahead and said that Umar married his daughter Roqayya

Ibn Qutaiba says

ويقال إن اسم بنت أم كلثوم من عمر رقية وأن عمر زوجها إبراهيم بن نعيم النحام فماتت عنده ولم تترك ولدا.

And it was said that Umar married his daughter Roqayya bint Umm kulthum to Ibrahim bin Naeem, and she died as his wife and did not give birth 

الدينوري، أبو محمد عبد الله بن مسلم ابن قتيبة (متوفاي276هـ)، المعارف، ج 1، ص 185، تحقيق: دكتور ثروت عكاشة، ناشر: دار المعارف – القاهرة .

and Ibn Athir also wrote

وقد ذكر الزبير بن أبي بكر أن عمر بن الخطاب زوج ابنته رقية من إبراهيم بن نعيم بن عبد الله النحام

Zubair bin Abi Bakar said that Umar married his daughter Roqayya to Ibrahim bin Naeem

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ)، أسد الغابة في معرفة الصحابة، ج 1، ص 71، تحقيق عادل أحمد الرفاعي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417 هـ – 1996 م.

And Ibn Hajar said 

وقال الزبير زوج عمر بن الخطاب إبراهيم هذا ابنته قلت وعند البلاذري أنه كانت عنده رقية بنت عمر من أم كلثوم بنت علي.

Zubair said that Umar married his daughter to Ibrahim bn Naeem. Baladari also said that Roqayya was from Umm Kulthum bint Ali 

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 1، ص 178، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

Now, Umar married Umm Kulthum in 17 or 18 hijri. And he died in 23 hijri. So a total of 6 years. and in that took Zaid was the elder son and even he was born in last days of Umar; can any intellectual mind accept that Umar could have married his daughter who would hardly be 1 or 2 years old ????

Ibn Hajar writes for Zaid that He was born in last days of his father in year 23 hijri

وكان مولده في آخر حياة أبيه سنة ثلاث وعشرين.

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852 هـ)، الإيثار بمعرفة رواة الآثار ج 1، ص 79، تحقيق: سيد كسروي حسن، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1413هـ.

 

5- DATE OF DEATH OF UMM KULTHUM AND ZAID

As regard to other aspects associated to this incident, there is difference in regards to this issue as well. Some said that She died in era of Imam Hasan asws, others said that Abdul Mulk bin Marwan poisoned her

1- Death in era of Abdul Mulk bin Marwan

Abdur Razaq Sana’ani said that the two died in era of Abdul Mulk bin Marwan, and the year was 86 hijri.

قال عبد الرزاق وأم كلثوم من فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ودخل عليها عمر وأولد منها غلاما يقال له زيد فبلغني أن عبد الملك بن مروان سمهما فماتا وصلى عليهما عبد الله بن عمر وذلك أنه قيل لعبد الملك هذا بن علي وبن عمر فخاف على ملكه فسمهما.

Abdur Razaq said that Umm Kulthum was from Fatima daughter of Holy Prophet asws who was married to Umar, She gave birth to a son named Zaid. We got this news that Abdul Mulk poisoned them. Abdullah bin Umar offered funeral prayers, and the reason was that he was told that he is son of Ali asws and Umar, so he was afraid for his caliphate, and so poisoned him

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 6، ص 164، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.


2- Death in era of Saeed bin Aas

 

We then get news that they died in era of Saeed bin Aas, whose era runs from 48 hijri to 54 hijri

Sifdi writes in Al Wafi bil Wafiyat

وتوفي زيد رحمه الله شابا في حدود الخمسين للهجرة.

Zaid died in his youth in year 50 Hijri

الصفدي، صلاح الدين خليل بن أيبك (متوفاي764هـ)، الوافي بالوفيات، ج 15، ص 24، تحقيق أحمد الأرناؤوط وتركي مصطفى، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث – بيروت – 1420هـ- 2000م.

And Ibn Hajar Asqalani said

زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب القرشي العدوي أمه أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب مات مع أمه في يوم واحد وكان مولده في آخر حياة أبيه سنة ثلاث وعشرين ومات وهو شاب في خلافة معاوية في ولاية سعيد بن العاص على المدينة

Zaid bin Umar, whose mother was Umm Kulthum bint Ali, He died with his mother on the same day. He was born in the last era of His father in year 23 hijri, and he died in era of caliphate of Mawia in governorship of Saeed bin Aas in Madina

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852 هـ)، الإيثار بمعرفة رواة الآثار ج 1، ص 79، تحقيق: سيد كسروي حسن، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1413هـ.

So there is a difference of about 20 years in these two references

3- Death after Karbala

The sermon which she delivered in Kufa, as mentioned by Ibn Taifoor, shows that she was alive after Karbala

قالت أبدأ بحمد الله والصلاة والسلام على جدي أما بعد يا أهل الكوفة…

أبي الفضل بن أبي طاهر المعروف بابن طيفور (متوفاى380 هـ )، بلاغات النساء، ص 24، ناشر: منشورات مكتبة بصيرتي ـ قم و ص 11، طبق برنامه الجامع الكبير.

6- REASON OF DEATH OF UMM KULTHUM AND ZAID

As we have seen doubts in all aspects of this story, here is another one. People narrate different things in regards to this

a) Died due to illness 

We find scholars of Ahlusunnah writing

وقد ذكر بعض أهل العلم أنه وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب رحمة الله عليهم وكانت تحت عبد الله بن جعفر بن أبي طالب عليه مرضاً جميعاً وثقلاً ونزل بهما وأن رجالاً مشوا بينهما لينظروا أيهما يموت قبل صاحبه فيرث منه الآخر وأنهما قبضا في ساعة واحدة ولم يدر أيهما قبض قبل صاحبه فلم يتوارثا.

Some of those who have knowledge, say that Zaid and his mother Umm Kulthum bint Ali, when she was wife of Abdullah bin Jafar, got ill and died together. We use to visit them to see who dies first and becomes heir of other, but they died in same time and moment. We could not know who died first so as to see who is heir to whom

البغدادي، أبو جعفر محمد بن حبيب بن أمية (متوفاي245هـ)، المنمق في أخبار قريش، ج 1، ص 312، تحقيق: خورشيد أحمد فارق، ناشر: عالم الكتب – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1405هـ ـ 1985م؛

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 19، ص 487 تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995؛

الصفدي، صلاح الدين خليل بن أيبك (متوفاي764هـ)، الوافي بالوفيات، ج 15، ص 24، تحقيق أحمد الأرناؤوط وتركي مصطفى، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث – بيروت – 1420هـ- 2000م.

b) Died due to stone hitting

Other said that Zaid died due to stone hitting him

Ibn Haban says 

فأما أم كلثوم فزوجها على من عمر فولدت لعمر زيدا ورقية وأما زيد فأتاه حجر فقتله.

Umm Kulthum was married by Ali to umar, and from this was born Zaid and Roqayya, and zaid died to stone hitting him 

التميمي البستي، محمد بن حبان بن أحمد أبو حاتم (متوفاي354 هـ)، الثقات، ج 2، ص 144، تحقيق السيد شرف الدين أحمد، ناشر: دار الفكر، الطبعة: الأولى، 1395هـ – 1975م.

Ibn Qutaiba held this view that he died in battle between Tribe of A’wij and Razah

وأما زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب فرمى بحجر في حرب كانت بين بني عويج وبين بني رزاح فمات ولا عقب له ويقال أنه مات هو وأم كلثوم أمه في ساعة واحدة فلم يرث واحد منهما من صاحبه…

And Zaid died due to stone hitting him in battle between Awij and Razah, he died and did not leave behind any progeny. And he and his mother died in Same time and did not become heir to each other

الدينوري، أبو محمد عبد الله بن مسلم ابن قتيبة (متوفاي276هـ)، المعارف، ج 1، ص 188، تحقيق: دكتور ثروت عكاشة، ناشر: دار المعارف – القاهرة.

And other said that he died in battle between Tribe of A’di

وتوفيت أم كلثوم وابنها زيد في وقت واحد وقد كان زيد أصيب في حرب كانت بين بني عدي ليلا كان قد خرج ليصلح بينهم فضربه رجل منهم في الظلمة فشجه وصرعه فعاش أياما ثم مات وهو وأمه في وقت واحد وصلى عليهما ابن عمر…

Umm Kulthum and her son Zaid died in one time. Zaid had gone to make peace at night between tribe of A’di. In night, some one hit him in the head and he got injured and lived for few days and died with his mother in same time. Ibn Umar led funeral prayers on him

القرطبي، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبد البر (متوفاي463 هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1956، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ)، أسد الغابة في معرفة الصحابة، ج 7، ص 425، تحقيق عادل أحمد الرفاعي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417 هـ – 1996 م

c) Died due to arrow hitting him 

Some even held this opinion

فولدت له زيد بن عمر وهو زيد الأكبر ورقية بنت عمر وكانت وفاتها ووفاة ابنها في ساعة واحدة وكان سبب موته سهما أصابه ليلا في ثائرة وقعت بين عدي وبني حذيفة

And Zaid bin Umar was born, and he was Zaid Akbar, and Roqayya bint Umar. And they all died at same time. The reason of death of Zaid was arrow which struck him in battle of Bani A’di and Bani Hudaifa

السهيلي، عبد الرحمن بن عبد الله أبو القاسم (متوفاي581هـ)، الفرائض وشرح آيات الوصية، ج 1، ص 138، تحقيق: د. محمد إبراهيم البنا، ناشر: المكتبة الفيصلية – مكة المكرمة، الطبعة: الثانية، 1405هـ.

d) Died due to poisoning 

Abdur Razaq bin Hamam Sana’ani writes

قال عبد الرزاق وأم كلثوم من فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ودخل عليها عمر وأولد منها غلاما يقال له زيد فبلغني أن عبد الملك بن مروان سمهما فماتا وصلى عليهما عبد الله بن عمر وذلك أنه قيل لعبد الملك هذا بن علي وبن عمر فخاف على ملكه فسمهما.

Abdur Razaq said that Umm Kulthum was from Fatima asws, and she married Umar, and from this was born a son, and he was named Zaid, and the news reached Abdul Mulk bin Marwan, and he poisoned him, and Abdullah bin Umar offered funeral prayers. and the reason was that he was told that he is son of Ali and Umar, so he was afraid for his rule 

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 6، ص 164، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.


7- PROGENY OF ZAID

The list of doubts continue, and we find controversy in this case as well

a) No Progeny left

وزيد الأكبر لا بقية له ورقية وأمهما أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم وأمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله.

Zaid Akbar, he had no progeny left. And Roqayya, and their mother was Umm Kulthum…..

النميري البصري، أبو زيد عمر بن شبة (متوفاي262هـ)، تاريخ المدينة المنورة، ج 1، ص 345، تحقيق علي محمد دندل وياسين سعد الدين بيان، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت – 1417هـ-1996م.

b) He had a lot of children 

Ibn Qadama Moqaddasi, famous Hanbali Faqih says

فإن زيد بن عمر هو ابن أم كلثوم بنت علي الذي صلي عليه معها وكان رجلا له أولاد كذلك.

Zaid bin Umar, and he is son of Umm Kulthum bint Ali, the two had funeral together. And he was a man who had children 

المقدسي، عبد الله بن أحمد بن قدامة أبو محمد (متوفاي620هـ)، المغني في فقه الإمام أحمد بن حنبل الشيباني، ج 2، ص 221، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1405هـ.

المقدسي، عبد الله بن أحمد بن قدامة أبو محمد (متوفاي620هـ)، الشرح الكبير لابن قدامة، ج 2، ص 345.

Ibn Asaakar also wrote this

قال الزبير وأما زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب فكان له ولد فانقرضوا

Zubair said that Zaid bin Umar had children, but the race did not continue 

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 19، ص 483، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

8- AGE OF ZAID AT THE TIME OF DEATH

There is controversy in this regard as well. Some said he was Sagheer, others said he was Young, and yet others termed him a Man

a) Zaid was Sagheer/of less age

Ibn abi Hatim and Ibn Asaakar said

زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب من أم كلثوم بنت على سمعت أبى يقول ذلك ويقول توفى هو وأمه أم كلثوم في ساعة واحدة وهو صغير لا يدرى أيهما مات أول

Zaid bin Umar, from Umm Kulthum. I heard from my father that he and his mother died at same time when he was SAGHEER. And it is not known who died first

الرازي التميمي، أبو محمد عبد الرحمن بن أبي حاتم محمد بن إدريس (متوفاي327هـ)، الجرح والتعديل، ج 3، ص 568، رقم: 2576، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1271هـ ـ 1952م؛

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 19، ص 484، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

b) He was Young

Dhabi and Ibn Hajar termed him SHAB, which means young

زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب، القرشي العدوي، وأمه أم كلثوم بنت فاطمة الزهراء. قال عطاء الخراساني: توفي شاباً ولم يعقب.

Zaid bin Umar, and his mother was Umm Kulthum. A’ta said he died young and had no progeny left behind

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، تاريخ الإسلام ووفيات المشاهير والأعلام، ج 4، ص 58، تحقيق د. عمر عبد السلام تدمرى، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – لبنان/ بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1407هـ – 1987م.

And Ibn Hajar said

زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب القرشي العدوي أمه أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب مات مع أمه في يوم واحد وكان مولده في آخر حياة أبيه سنة ثلاث وعشرين ومات وهو شاب في خلافة معاوية في ولاية سعيد بن العاص على المدينة

Zaid bin Umar, his mother was Umm Kulthum, he died with his mother on the same day and he was born in the last days of his father in year 23 hijri, and he was young in the era of Caliphate of Mawia when Saeed bin Aas was governor of Madina

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852 هـ)، الإيثار بمعرفة رواة الآثار ج 1، ص 79، تحقيق: سيد كسروي حسن، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1413هـ.

c) He was a Man

Other scholars of Ahlusunnah said that he was a man

Khateeb Baghdaadi said that he lived till he became a Man

فولدت له زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب فعاش حتى كان رجلا ثم مات
.
البغدادي، أحمد بن علي أبو بكر الخطيب (متوفاي463هـ)، تاريخ بغداد، ج 6، ص 182، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت.

Ibn Asaakar mentioned an incident in which Zaid had rough talk with Basr bin Artaat, and in that it is mentioned that he was a Man

حدثني رجل من الأنصار عن أبيه قال وفاقا مع زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب وأمها فاطمة بنت رسول الله ص إلى معاوية بن أبي سفيان فأجلسه على السرير وهو يومئذ من أجمل الناس وأشبههم فبينا هو جالس قال له بسر بن أرطأة يا ابن أبي تراب فقال له أإياي تعني لا أم لك لك أنا والله خير منك وأزكى وأطيب فما زال الكلام بينهما حتى نزل زيد إليه فخنقه حتى صرعه وبرك على صدره فنزل معاوية عن سريره فحجز بينهما وسقطت عمامة زيد فقال زيد والله يا معاوية ما شكرت الحسنى ولا حفظت ما كان منا إليك حيث تسلط علي عبد بني عامر فقال معاوية أما قولك يا ابن أخي أني لكفرت الحسنى فوالله ما استعملني أبوك إلا من حاجة إلي وأما ما ذكرت من الشكر فوالله لقد وصلنا أرحامكم وقضينا حقوقكم وإنكم لفي منازلكم فقال زيد أنا ابن الخليفتين والله لا تراني بعدها أبدا عائدا إليك وإني لأعلم أن هذا لم يكن إلا عن رأيك قال وخرج زيد إلينا وقد تشعث رأسه وسقطت عمامته.

A man from Ansaar narrates from his father that Once i was with Zaid, whose mother was Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws; We went to Mawia and Mawia made him sit with his seat. He was a beautiful man in those who were there. Basr bin Artaat told him: O son of Abu Turab! Zaid said: You are talking to me o man without Mother? By God! I am better than you, and I am more clean than you. And with this, there was rough talk between then and He went off the chain and hit him on ground. and climbed up his chest. Mawia separated them, and Zaid’s turban fell off.

Zaid said: O Mawia! You did not return our good deeds in nice way, and did not care of the favours which we did to you, and You let a slave of Banu Aamir over power me.

 

Mawia said: You said that I did not reply in nice way your favours, so beware that your father made me a ruler because he needed me. And your saying that i did not care about the good deeds of yours, then beware that We made connections to your relatives, and kept you where you were

 

Zaid said: I am son of two caliphs. You will not see me now coming to you, and i Know that these are the words of Basr, and this was your plot. Then Zaid returned to us, and his hair were scattered and his turban fallen

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 19، ص 484، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995.

Baladari has mentioined this in Ansaab ul Ashraaf, Zamkhashari in Rabi”i ul Abrar, Ibn Hamdoon in al Tazkira tul Hamdoniyya, Ibn athir in his Kamil, Dhabi in Sair ul Alam, with some difference in words

البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ)، أنساب الأشراف، ج 2، ص 86؛

الزمخشري الخوارزمي، أبو القاسم محمود بن عمرو بن أحمد جار الله (متوفاى538هـ) ربيع الأبرار، ج 1، ص 469؛

ابن حمدون، محمد بن الحسن بن محمد بن علي (متوفاي 608هـ)، التذكرة الحمدونية، ج 9، ص 309، تحقيق: إحسان عباس، بكر عباس، ناشر:دار صادر – بيروت،، الطبعة: الأولى، 1996م؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ) الكامل في التاريخ، ج 3، ص 373، تحقيق عبد الله القاضي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة الثانية، 1415هـ؛

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، سير أعلام النبلاء، ج 3، ص 502، تحقيق: شعيب الأرناؤوط، محمد نعيم العرقسوسي، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: التاسعة، 1413هـ.

This speaks of the fact that Zaid was of such age that he was talking in rough tone to commander of Mawia, and even threw him on ground

Also, If he was born in last days of Umar, then in era of Saeed bin Aas, he was about 28 years;; and if he was poisoned by Abdul Mulk, then he was 50 years old

9- WHO LED THE FUNERAL OF ZAID AND UMM KULTHUM?

There are differences in this regard as well

a) Abdullah bin Umar

Ibn Hajar Asqalani says that Sahih narration says that it was led by Abdullah bin Umar

وأخرج بسند صحيح أن بن عمر صلى علي أم كلثوم وابنها زيد فجعله مما يليه وكبر أربعا

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 8، ص 294، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

Mohammad bin Hasan Shebani says

عن عامر الشعبي، قال: صلى ابن عمر رضي الله عنه على أم كلثوم بنت علي رضي الله عنه وزيد بن عمر رضي الله عنه ابنها، فجعل أم كلثوم تلقاء القبلة، وجعل زيدا مما يلي الإمام

Amir Sha’bi says that Ibn Umar led the prayers on Umm Kulthum and her son, zaid bin umar…..

الشيباني، أبو عبد الله محمد بن الحسن بن فرقد (متوفاي189هـ)، الآثار لمحمد ابن الحسن، ج 1، ص 318.

And ibn Saad and Abdur Razaq bin Hamam Sana’ani say

عبد الرزاق عن الثوري عن أبي حصين وإسماعيل عن الشعبي أن بن عمر صلى على أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب وزيد بن عمر فجعل زيدا يليه والمرأة أمام ذلك.

Sha’bi says that Ibn Umar led prayers on Umm Kulthum and Zaid……

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 3، ص 465 ح6336، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ؛

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 464، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

and Bukhari wrote in Tareekh ul Ausat

419 حدثنا محمد بن الصباح ثنا إسماعيل بن زكريا عن رزين البزاز حدثني الشعبي قال توفى زيد بن عمر وأم كلثوم فقدموا عبد الله بن عمر وخلفه الحسن والحسين ومحمد بن الحنفية وعبد الله بن جعفر.

Sha’bi said that when Zaid bin Umar and Umm Kulthum died, Ibn Umar moved forward( to lead) and Hasan and Hussein (peace be on them both) , Mohammad bin Hanafiyya and Abdullah bin Jafar followed

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، التاريخ الأوسط، ج 1، ص 102، تحقيق: محمود إبراهيم زايد، ناشر: دار الوعي، مكتبة دار التراث – حلب، القاهرة، الطبعة: الأولى، 1397م ـ 1977م.

But this is strange in the presence of Saeed bin Aas, who was governor of Madina

b) Saeed bin Aas

Many narrations say that governor of Madina, Saeed bin Aas led the prayers

ibn Abi Sheebah writes

حدثنا حَاتِمُ بن وَرْدَانَ عن يُونُسَ عن عَمَّارٍ مولى بَنِي هَاشِمٍ قال شَهِدْت أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ وَزَيْدَ بن عُمَرَ مَاتَا في سَاعَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ فاخرجوهما فَصَلَّى عَلَيْهِمَا سَعِيدُ بن الْعَاصِ فَجَعَلَ زَيْدًا مِمَّا يَلِيهِ وَجَعَلَ أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ بين يَدَيْ زَيْدٍ وفي الناس يَوْمَئِذٍ نَاسٌ من أَصْحَابِ النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وَالْحَسَنُ وَالْحُسَيْنُ في الْجِنَازَةِ.

Younas bin Amar says that I saw that Umm Kulthum and Zaid bin Umar died at same time, and when they were taken out for prayers, Saeed bin Aas led that………..And in those who attended were Sahaba of Prophet asws and Hasan and Hussein asws

إبن أبي شيبة الكوفي، أبو بكر عبد الله بن محمد (متوفاي235 هـ)، الكتاب المصنف في الأحاديث والآثار، ج 3، ص 8،* ح11568، تحقيق: كمال يوسف الحوت، ناشر: مكتبة الرشد – الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1409هـ.

And Ahmad bin Hanbal writes

عن عمار مولى بني هاشم قال شهدت وفاة أم كلثوم بنت علي وزيد بن عمر قال فصلى عليهما سعيد بن العاص وقدم أم كلثوم بين يدي زيد بن عمر.

Ammar narrates that I saw that Umm Kulthum asws and Zaid bi Umar died, and Saeed bin Aas led the prayers…..

الشيباني، أحمد بن حنبل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي241هـ)، العلل ومعرفة الرجال، ج 1، ص 140، تحقيق: وصي الله بن محمد عباس، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي، دار الخاني – بيروت، الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1408 – 1988.

Mohammad bin Ali Shokani, who is followed by Wahabis a lot, he writes

وَعَنْ الشَّعْبِيِّ أَنَّ أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ بِنْتَ عَلِيٍّ وَابْنَهَا زَيْدَ بن عُمَرَ تُوُفِّيَا جميعا فَأُخْرِجَتْ جِنَازَتَاهُمَا فَصَلَّى عَلَيْهِمَا أَمِيرُ الْمَدِينَةِ فَسَوَّى بين رؤوسهما وَأَرْجُلِهِمَا حين صلى عَلَيْهِمَا

Sho’bi says that Saeed bin Aas led the prayers

الشوكاني، محمد بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 1255هـ)، نيل الأوطار من أحاديث سيد الأخيار شرح منتقى الأخبار، ج 4، ص 110، ناشر: دار الجيل، بيروت – 1973.

Interestingly, both types have been narrated by Sho’bi, that is, those which said that it was led by Ibn Umar and those which say it for Saeed

Nisai wrote

وَوُضِعَتْ جَنَازَةُ أُمِّ كُلْثُومِ بِنْتِ عَلِيٍّ امْرَأَةِ عُمَرَ بن الْخَطَّابِ وبن لها يُقَالُ له زَيْدٌ وُضِعَا جميعا وَالْإِمَامُ يَوْمَئِذٍ سَعِيدُ بن الْعَاصِ وفي الناس بن عُمَرَ وأبو هُرَيْرَةَ وأبو سَعِيدٍ وأبو قَتَادَةَ فَوُضِعَ الْغُلَامُ مِمَّا يَلِي الْإِمَامَ.

The dead body of Umm kulthum and her son, Zaid was placed on ground, and Imam was Saeed bin Aas, and in people were Ibn Umar, Abu Huraira, Abu Saeed, Abu Qatada…

النسائي، أحمد بن شعيب أبو عبد الرحمن، المجتبى من السنن، ج 4، ص 71، تحقيق: عبدالفتاح أبو غدة، ناشر: مكتب المطبوعات الإسلامية – حلب، الطبعة: الثانية، 1406 – 1986.

And Malik bin Anas wrote

عن نافع عن بن عمر قال وضعت جنازة أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب من فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهي امرأة عمر بن الخطاب وبن لها يقال له زيد فصفا جميعا والإمام يومئذ سعيد بن العاص فوضع الغلام مما يلي الإمام وفي الناس بن عباس وأبو هريرة وأبو سعيد وأبو قتادة فقالوا هي السنة.

Funeral of Umm Kulthum and her son, zaid was placed on ground, and Imam on that day was Saeed bin Aas,….and in people were Ibn Abbas, Abu huraira, Abu Saeed, Abu Qatada….

ماالك بن أنس أبو عبدالله الأصبحي (متوفاي179هـ)، المدونة الكبرى، ج 1، ص 182، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

Abdur Razaq also mentioned it like this

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 3، ص 465، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.

Ibn Mulqan Ansari has termed this narration Sahih 

980 أثر سعيد بن العاص أنه صلى على زيد بن عمر بن الخطاب وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي فوضع الغلام بين يديه والمرأة خلفه وفي القوم نحو من ثمانين نفسا من أصحاب النبي صلى الله تعالى عليه وسلم فصوبوه وقالوا هو السنة رواه البيهقي وبنحوه أبو داود والنسائي بإسناد صحيح.

الأنصاري، عمر بن علي بن الملقن (متوفاي804هـ)، خلاصة البدر المنير في تخريج كتاب الشرح الكبير للرافعي، ج 1، ص 138، تحقيق: حمدي عبد المجيد إسماعيل السلفي، ناشر: مكتبة الرشد – الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1410هـ.

 

10- PRESENCE OF ABU QATADA BADRI IN FUNERAL 

One of the other contradictions which we have found so far, this is also a contradiction that Abu Qatada was present in this prayer, where as he had died long ago. Behqi pointed to this

 

وروينا في كتاب الجنائز عن ابن جريج وأسامة بن زيد عن نافع مولى ابن عمر في اجتماع الجنائز أن جنازة أم كلثوم بنت علي إمرأة عمر بن الخطاب وابنها زيد بن عمر وضعتا جميعا والإمام يومئذ سعيد بن العاص وفي الناس يومئذ ابن عباس وأبو هريرة وأبو سعيد وأبو قتادة فوضع الغلام مما يلي الإمام ثم سئلوا فقالوا: هي السنة.
وقد ذكرنا أن إمارة سعيد بن العاص إنما كانت من سنة ثمان وأربعين إلى سنة أربع وخمسين وفي هذا الحديث الصحيح شهادة نافع بشهود أبي قتادة هذه الجنازة التي صلى عليها سعيد بن العاص في إمارته على المدينة.

وفي كل ذلك دلالة على خطأ رواية موسى بن عبد الله ومن تابعه في موت أبي قتادة في خلافة علي. ويشبه أن تكون رواية غلط من قتادة بن النعمان أو غيره ممن تقدم موته إلى أبي قتادة.
فقتادة بن النعمان قديم الموت وهو الذي شهد بدرا منهما. إلا أن الواقدي ذكر أنه مات في خلافة عمر وصلى عليه عمر وذكر هذا الراوي أن أبا قتادة صلى عليه علي. والجمع بينهما متعذر.

A narration has passed in book of Janaiz from Ibn Juraij and Usama bin Zaid from Nafi’i slave of Ibn Umar that When few funerals are combined, [and in that we find] that funeral of Umm Kulthum and Zaid was placed together, and Imam was Saeed bin Aas, and in people were Ibn Abbas, Abu huraira, Abu saeed, Abu Qatada………

 

and we know that governorship of Saeed bin Aas was in year 49 hijri to 54 hijri. And in that Sahih Hadeeth, we find that Nafi’i saw that Abu Qatada was present in that funeral which was led by Saeed in his governorship

 

There is proof that there is problem in narration of Musa bin Abdullah, and those who followed him that Abu Qatada died in caliphate of Ali asws. and this creates doubt that in the narratin was mistake, and it was Qatada bin Nauman or other who had died before Abu Qatada. And Qatada bin Nauman died much early, and he saw Badr. But Waqidi said that he died in caliphate of Umar, and Umar led prayers on him. and the other narration says that Ali asws offered prayers on him. And it is difficult to combine these two narration

 

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي458هـ)، معرفة السنن والآثار عن الامام أبي عبد الله محمد بن أدريس الشافعي، ج 1، ص 559، تحقيق: سيد كسروي حسن، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت.

So we see that some narrations say that Abu Qatada died in era of Imam Ali asws, and He led the prayers. But this narration says that he was present. And Behqi says that the doubtful part is the one where Imam Ali asws led the prayers. But keeping in mind the confusions we have see so far, it seems more likely that there is doubt in this one.

11- WHOM DID UMAR MARRY: ZAINAB OR UMM KULTHUM?

The issue of controversies and doubts reached such extent that they got confused even in this thing as to who was the one with whom Umar had married. Abdul Hai Kanani says

شيخ المختار الكنتي في الاجوبة المهمة نقلا عن الحافظ الدميري اعظم صداق بلغنا خبره صداق عمر لما تزوج زينب بنت علي فانه أصدقها اربعين الف دينار فقيل له في ذلك فقال والله ما في رغبة إلى النساء ولاكني سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول كل سبب ونسب ينقطع يوم القيامة الا سببي ونسبي فأردت تاكيد النسب بيني وبينه صلى الله عليه وسلم فأردت أن أتزوج ابنته كما تزوج ابنتي وأعطيت هذا المال العريض اكراما لمصاهرتي اياه صلى الله عليه وسلم. منها هذا مع كون عمر نهى عن المغالات في المهر.

Mokhatar katani mentioned this from Damiri that The maximum Mehr which has been heard is that of Umar marrying Zainab, and that was 40000. dinar. When he was asked about it, he replied: By God! I have no liking for women but I have heard from Holy Prophet asws that he said that All relations and lineage will be ended on the day of Qayamat except my relation and lineage. So i wished that my relation to him should strengthen and so i married His daughter like he married my daughters. And I gave this amount for the sake of glory given to me

الكتاني، الشيخ عبد الحي (متوفاي1382هـ)، نظام الحكومة النبوية المسمى التراتيب الإدراية، ج 2، ص 405، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – بيروت.

12- WHO MADE THE IMAM OF FUNERAL LEAD THE PRAYERS?

 

In order to give more flavour to the story, Scholars of ahlusunnah said that It was Imam Hasan or Imam Hussein who made Saeed bin Aas or Ibn Umar lead the prayers. They had to do this, because in the presence of these Two Greats, how can Saeed bin Aas or Ibn Umar do that. But saying that they themselves allowed it, would solve the issue

But who was the one who did that, there is controversy

a) Imam Hasan asws

Ibn Abdul Bar says in al Istiaab

وتوفيت أم كلثوم وابنها زيد في وقت واحد وقد كان زيد أصيب في حرب كانت بين بني عدي ليلا كان قد خرج ليصلح بينهم فضربه رجل منهم في الظلمة فشجه وصرعه فعاش أياما ثم مات وهو وأمه في وقت واحد وصلى عليهما ابن عمر قدمه الحسن بن علي.

Both Umm Kulthum and Zaid died at the same time……….And the prayers were led by Ibn Umar who was made to lead by Imam Hasan asws

القرطبي، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبد البر (متوفاي463 هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1956، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ.

Mohib ud Deen Tibri said

وحكى الدولابي وغيره القولين في موتها عنده أوموته عندها قال أبو عمر ماتت أم كلثوم وابنها زيد في وقت واحد وكان زيد قد أصيب في حرب بين بني عدي ليلا فخرج ليصلح بينهم فضربه رجل منهم في الظلمة فشجه وصرعه فعاش أياما ثم مات هو وأمه في وقت واحد وصلى عليهما ابن عمر قدمه الحسن بن عليفكانت فيهما سنتان فيما ذكروا لم يورث أحدهما من الآخر.

……Ibn Umar led the prayers and he was made to lead by Imam Hasan asws…

الطبري، محب الدين أحمد بن عبد الله (متوفاي694هـ)، ذخائر العقبى في مناقب ذوي القربى، ج 1، ص 17، ناشر: دار الكتب المصرية – مصر.

And Aasmi Makki says

وكان موتها هي وولدها من عمر المسمى زيدا الأكبر المقتول خطأ بيد خالد بن اسلم مولى زوجها عمر رضي الله عنه في وقت واحد وصلى عليهما ابن عمرقدمه الحسن بن علي.

…..Ibn Umar lead the prayers and he was made to lead by Imam Hasan asws

العاصمي المكي، عبد الملك بن حسين بن عبد الملك الشافعي (متوفاي1111هـ)، سمط النجوم العوالي في أنباء الأوائل والتوالي، ج 1، ص 534، تحقيق: عادل أحمد عبد الموجود- علي محمد معوض، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية.

b) Imam Hussein asws

Others mentioned that it was done by Imam Hussein asws

Mohammad bin Yousaf al A’bdari says

وقد قدم الحسين عبد الله بن عمر للصلاة على جنازة أخته أم كلثوم وابنها زيد بن عمر قال ابن رشد: وهذا لا حجة فيه إذ يحتمل أنه قدمه لسنه ولإقراره بفضله لا لأنه أحق

Hussein asws made Ibn Umar lead the prayers on his sister Umm Kulthum and her son Zaid……

العبدري، أبو عبد الله محمد بن يوسف بن أبي القاسم (متوفاي897هـ)، التاج والإكليل لمختصر خليل، ج 2، ص 252، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1398م.

And other narrations do not even name Imam Hasan asws i those who attended, they just name Imam Hussein asws

Mohammad Zia al A’zmi says 

الشعبي قال: صَلّى ابن عمر على زيد بن عمر وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي، فجعل الرجل مما يلي الإمام والمرأة من خلفه، فصَلَّى عليهما فكبر أربعاً وخلفه ابن الحنفية، والحسين بن علي، وابن عباس.

Sho’bi says that Ibn Umar lead the prayers……..and those who were behind inluded Ibn Hanafiyya, Hussein bin Ali asws and Ibn Abbas

الأعظمي، محمد ضياء الرحمن (متوفاي458هـ)، المنة الكبرى شرح وتخريج السنن الصغرى، ج 3، ص 52، ناشر: مكتبة الرشد – السعودية/ الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1422هـ – 2001م.

Narration of Behqi also says that Imam Hasan asws was not there, and that prayers were lead by Ibn Umar and those who attended included Imam Hussein asws, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Hanafiyya

أخبرنا أبو الحسين بن الفضل أنبأ عبد الله بن جعفر ثنا يعقوب بن سفيان ثنا أبو نعيم ثنا رزين بياع الرمان عن الشعبي قال صلى بن عمر على زيد بن عمر وأمه أم كلثوم بنت علي فجعل الرجل مما يلي الإمام والمرأة من خلفه فصلى عليهما أربعا وخلفه بن الحنفية والحسين بن علي وبن عباس رضي الله عنهما

البيهقي، أحمد بن الحسين بن علي بن موسى أبو بكر (متوفاي 458هـ)، سنن البيهقي الكبرى، ج 4، ص 38،* ح6743، ناشر: مكتبة دار الباز – مكة المكرمة، تحقيق: محمد عبد القادر عطا، 1414 – 1994.

c) People made him lead the prayers

Bukhari writes in Tareekh ul Ausat that it was done by people

419 حدثنا محمد بن الصباح ثنا إسماعيل بن زكريا عن رزين البزاز حدثني الشعبي قال توفى زيد بن عمر وأم كلثوم فقدموا عبد الله بن عمر وخلفه الحسن والحسين ومحمد بن الحنفية وعبد الله بن جعفر.

Sho’bi says that Zaid and Umm Kulthum died, and people made Ibn Umar lead the prayers, and behind him were Imam Hasan and Hussein asws,, Ibn Hanafiyya, Abdullah bin Jafar

.

4th ANGLE: INSULT OF HOLY PROPHET asws

.

In order to prove this marriage, Ahlusunnah fabricated such narrations which would be termed shameful by any Muslim having love for Holy Prophet

We would like to ask ahlusunnah is it worthy to narrate such stories just to prove good relations? is it so important that We mention such disgusting narrations to prove our point?

We ask them: Is it not insult to Holy Prophet asws, Imam Ali asws, and even Umar?


a) Umar exposed thigh of Umm Kulthum and looked at that

Ibn Hajar is a famous personality in the world of Ahlusunnah, he writes in his books

عن مُحَمَّدِ بن عَلِيِّ بن الْحَنَفِيَّةِ أَنَّ عُمَرَ خَطَبَ إلَى عَلِيٍّ ابْنَتَهُ أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فذكر له صِغَرَهَا فقال أَبْعَثُ بها إلَيْك فَإِنْ رَضِيت فَهِيَ امْرَأَتُك فَأَرْسَلَ بها إلَيْهِ فَكَشَفَ عن سَاقِهَا فقالت لَوْلَا أَنَّك أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ لَصَكَكْت عَيْنَك وَهَذَا يُشْكَلُ على من قال إنَّهُ لَا يَنْظُرُ غير الْوَجْهِ وَالْكَفَّيْنِ.

Mohammad bin Ali bin Hanafiyya narrates that When Umar asked for Umm Kulthum, Ali asws reminded him that she is minor. Then he told her that I will send her to you, If you like her, then she is your wife. So he sent her. Umar exposed thigh of Umm Kulthum, so she replied: If you were not a caliph, I would have blinded your eyes…

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 6، ص 163، ح10352، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ؛

الخراساني، سعيد بن منصور (متوفاي227هـ)، سنن سعيد بن منصور، ج 1، ص 173، ح1011، تحقيق: حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: الدار السلفية – الهند، الطبعة: الأولى، 1403هـ ـ 1982م .

القرطبي، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبد البر (متوفاي463 هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1955، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ.

الانصاري التلمساني، محمد بن أبي بكر المعروف بالبري (متوفاي644هـ) الجوهرة في نسب النبي وأصحابه العشرة، ج 1، ص 260؛

ابن قدامة المقدسي، بد الرحمن بن محمد (متوفاي682هـ)، الشرح الكبير، ج 7، ص 343؛

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ) تلخيص الحبير في أحاديث الرافعي الكبير، ج 3، ص 147، تحقيق السيد عبدالله هاشم اليماني المدني، ناشر: – المدينة المنورة – 1384هـ – 1964م؛

الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 8، ص 293، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992؛

السيوطي، جلال الدين عبد الرحمن بن أبي بكر (متوفاي911هـ)، جامع الاحاديث (الجامع الصغير وزوائده والجامع الكبير)، ج 14، ص 265؛

الشوكاني، محمد بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 1255هـ)، نيل الأوطار من أحاديث سيد الأخيار شرح منتقى الأخبار، ج 6، ص 240، ناشر: دار الجيل، بيروت –1973


b) Umar exposed thigh of Umm Kulthum and then touched with with hands

Dhabi and other greats of ahlusunnah have mentioned

قال عمر لعلي: زوجنيها أبا حسن، فإني أرصُدُ من كرامتها مالا يرصد أحد، قال: فأنا أبعثها إليك، فإن رضيتها، فقد زَوَّجْتُكها، يعتل بصغرها، قال: فبعثها إليه ببُرْدٍ، وقال لها: قولي له: هذا البرد الذي قلت لك، فقالت له ذلك. فقال: قولي له: قد رضيت رضي الله عنك، ووضع يده على ساقها، فكشفها، فقالت: أتفعل هذا؟ لولا أنك أمير المؤمنين، لكسرت أنفك، ثم مضت إلى أبيها، فأخبرته وقالت: بعثتني إلى شيخ سوء!.

 

Umar told Imam Ali asws: Marry her to me O Abu Hasan, and with this, i will reach such glory which none can reach. Imam Ali asws replied: I will send her to you, if You like her, then I will marry her to you, though he had said she is minor. Then he send her with a cloak and said to her that tell Umar that this is the cloak which I had told you about. Umm Kulthum repeated what Imam Ali asws had said. Umar said: Tell your father that I have liked it, may Allah be happy with you. Then he placed his hand on her thigh and exposed her. She said: What are you doing? If you were not a caliph, i would have broken your nose. Then she went back to her father and told her all. and said: You sent me to a bad charactered old man

الزبيري، أبو عبد الله المصعب بن عبد الله بن المصعب (متوفاي236هـ)، نسب قريش، ج 10، ص 349، ناشر: دار المعارف تحقيق: ليفي بروفسال، القاهرة؛

ابن عساكر الدمشقي الشافعي، أبي القاسم علي بن الحسن إبن هبة الله بن عبد الله،(متوفاي571هـ)، تاريخ مدينة دمشق وذكر فضلها وتسمية من حلها من الأماثل، ج 19، ص 483، تحقيق: محب الدين أبي سعيد عمر بن غرامة العمري، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1995؛

ابن الجوزي، أبو الفرج عبد الرحمن بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 597 هـ)، المنتظم في تاريخ الملوك والأمم، ج 4، ص 237، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1358؛

ابن حمدون، محمد بن الحسن بن محمد بن علي (متوفاي608هـ)، التذكرة الحمدونية، ج 9، ص 309، تحقيق: إحسان عباس، بكر عباس، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت،، الطبعة: الأولى، 1996م؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ)، أسد الغابة في معرفة الصحابة، ج 7، ص 425، تحقيق عادل أحمد الرفاعي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417 هـ – 1996 م؛

الذهبي، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان، (متوفاي748هـ)، تاريخ الإسلام ووفيات المشاهير والأعلام، ج 4، ص 138، تحقيق د. عمر عبد السلام تدمرى، ناشر: دار الكتاب العربي – لبنان/ بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1407هـ – 1987م؛

سير أعلام النبلاء، ج 3، ص 501، تحقيق: شعيب الأرناؤوط، محمد نعيم العرقسوسي، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: التاسعة، 1413هـ؛

الصفدي، صلاح الدين خليل بن أيبك (متوفاي764هـ)، الوافي بالوفيات، ج 24، ص 272، تحقيق أحمد الأرناؤوط وتركي مصطفى، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث – بيروت – 1420هـ- 2000م؛

العيني، بدر الدين محمود بن أحمد (متوفاي 855هـ)، عمدة القاري شرح صحيح البخاري، ج 14، ص 168، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت؛

الصفوري، عبد الرحمن بن عبد السلام بن عبد الرحمن بن عثمان (متوفاي894 هـ)، نزهة المجالس ومنتخب النفائس، ج 2، ص 438، تحقيق: عبد الرحيم مارديني، ناشر: دار المحبة – دار آية – بيروت – دمشق – 2001 / 2002م.


c) Umm Kulthum was sent with make up, and Umar hold the thigh and kissed it

Khateeb Baghdaadi used even worse words

فقام على فأمر بابنته من فاطمة فزينت ثم بعث بها إلى أمير المؤمنين عمر فلما رآها قام إليها فأخذ بساقها وقال قولي لأبيك قد رضيت قد رضيت قد رضيت فلما جاءت الجارية إلى أبيها قال لها ما قال لك أمير المؤمنين قالت دعاني وقبلني فلما قمت اخذ بساقي وقال قولي لأبيك قد رضيت فأنكحها إياه.

Ali asws told his daughter to do make up, and then sent her to Umar. when Umar saw her, he held her thigh and told her to tell her father that he is happy. Umm Kulthum came to her father. He asked: What did he said? she said: He called me and kissed me, and when I was about to come, he held my thigh and said to tell you that he is happy

البغدادي، أحمد بن علي أبو بكر الخطيب (متوفاي463هـ)، تاريخ بغداد، ج 6، ص 182، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت.

ACTS OF UMAR BECAME LEGAL FOR HIS FOLLOWERS

Since these caliphs considered themselves to be heirs of Prophet asws, they had this view that they can make laws as well. And we see many acts introduced by them. Like saying «الصلاة خير من النوم» in morning call for prayers, and removing «حى علي خير العمل»; and many others. Sheikh Saadi said very nicely that

اگر ز باغ رعيت ملك خورد سيبي
برآورند غلامان او درخت از بيخ

that is, when king will take an apple from orchard of his people, his slaves will take the entire tree with them with roots

So naturally, If Umar would see thighs, they would move one step ahead. Let us see a few examples from none other than his Son’s deeds

Abdur Razaq said in his Musanif

13200 عبد الرزاق عن عبد الله بن عمر عن نافع عن بن عمر ومعمر عن أيوب عن نافع عن بن عمر كان إذا اراد أن يشتري جارية فراضاهم على ثمن وضع يده على عجزها وينظر إلى ساقيها وقبلها يعني بطنها.

Ibn Umar said that when you wish to buy a slave girl, and you know the price of her. place hands on her pelvis and look at her thighs and her vulva, which means belly

the word قُبُل has a definite meaning in Arabic, why has it been said it means belly here, We would suggest that it should be asked from those who were trying to defend Ibn Umar

And we find in another narration

13202 عبد الرزاق عن معمر عن عمرو بن دينار عن مجاهد قال مر بن عمر على قوم يبتاعون جارية فلما رأوه وهم يقلبونها أمسكوا عن ذلك فجاءهم بن عمر فكشف عن ساقها ثم دفع في صدرها وقال اشتروا قال معمر وأخبرني بن أبي نجيح عن مجاهد قال وضع بن عمر يده بين ثدييها ثم هزها.

Ibn Umar passed by some people who were busy in buying slave girls, When they saw Ibn Umar, they stopped from that. Ibn Umar came to them and exposed thighs of that slave girl, and placed his hand on her chest and then said buy her. and other narration says that He placed the hand between two nipples and moved them

then he further says

13205 عبد الرزاق عن بن جريج عن نافع أن بن عمر كان يكشف عن ظهرها وبطنها وساقها ويضع يده على عجزها.

Nafi’i said that Ibn Umar would expose the back, belly, thighs ( of slave girls), and place hands on her pelvis 

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 7، ص 286، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.

And if this is not enough, Basr bin Artaat stepped even more, and we find ibn Abdul Bar saying

عن أبي ارباب وصاحب له أنهما سمعا أبا ذر رضى الله عنه يدعو و يتعوذ في صلاة صلاها أطال قيامها وركوعها وسجودها قال فسألناه مم تعوذت وفيم دعوت فقال تعوذت بالله من يوم البلاء ويوم العورة فقلنا وما ذاك قال أما يوم البلاء فتلتقي فتيان من المسلمين فيقتل بعضهم بعضا.
وأما يوم العورة فإن نساء من المسلمات ليسبين فيكشف عن سوقهن فأيتهن كانمت أعظم ساقا اشتريت على عظم ساقها فدعوت الله ألا يدركني هذا الزمان ولعلكما تدركانه قال فقتل عثمان ثم ارسل معاوية بسر بن ارطاة إلى اليمن فسبى نساء مسلمات فأقمن في السوق.

Abu Arbaab and his friend narrate that We heard that Abu Dhar was praying while giving length to his Qayam/standing, Ruku/bowing and Sajda/prostration, to be saved by Allah. We asked him from what is he praying to be saved? He replied: I have asked Allah to save me from the day of problem and day of women. We asked him which days are these? He said that day of problem is the one when two groups of muslim will kill each other and day of women is the one when women will be made slave, and their thighs would be exposed, and who will have healthy thigh, she will be bought. So i prayed that Allah may not show me that day. but may be you people are present. Some time had passed when uthman was killed. And mawia sent Basr to Yemen, and he prisoned muslim women and made them slave women

القرطبي، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبد البر (متوفاي463 هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 1، ص 161، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ.

And their scholars said

دلت الأحاديث على أنه يندب تقديم النظر إلى من يريد نكاحها وهو قول جماهير العلماء والنظر إلى الوجه والكفين لأنه يستدل بالوجه على الجمال أو ضده والكفين على خصوبة البدن أو عدمها.
وقال الأوزاعي ينظر إلى مواضع اللحم. وقال داود ينظر إلى جميع بدنها. والحديث مطلق فينظر إلى ما يحصل له المقصود بالنظر إليه ويدل عليه فهم الصحابة لذلك ما رواه عبد الرزاق وسعيد بن منصور أن عمر كشف عن ساق أم كلثوم بنت علي.

Looking the the women whom you intend to marry……….Auzai said that all places of flesh can be seen. And Daood said that All body can be seen. And narration explicitly says that all those areas can be seen for which marriage is being done. And the proof is the intellect of Sahaba on that. As has been narrated by Abdur Razaq and Saeed bin Mansoor that Umar exposed thigh of Umm Kulthum

الصنعاني الأمير، محمد بن إسماعيل (متوفاي852هـ)، سبل السلام شرح بلوغ المرام من أدلة الأحكام، ج 3، ص 113، تحقيق: محمد عبد العزيز الخولي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت، الطبعة: الرابعة، 1379هـ.

This means that these narrations were trustworthy enough for these scholars that they were giving Fatwa on the basis of this.

OTHER SCHOLARS WHO TRIED TO GIVE EXPLANATION FOR THIS

Ibn Hajar Haithmi said while attempting to defend Umar

وتقبيله وضمه لها على جهة الإكرام لأنها لصغرها لم تبلغ حدا تشتهى حتى يحرم ذلك….

And the reason for this was that He was trying to honour her, and she was of less age and did not reach the extent of arousal, which would have made it haram for Umar

الهيثمي، أبو العباس أحمد بن محمد بن علي ابن حجر (متوفاي973هـ)، الصواعق المحرقة على أهل الرفض والضلال والزندقة، ج 2، ص 457، تحقيق عبد الرحمن بن عبد الله التركي – كامل محمد الخراط، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417هـ – 1997م.

It is strange in deed that Umm Kulthum felt it bad and disgusting to the extent that she thought of breaking her nose, or hitting in eyes, but still it was fine?

And what is the meaning of giving her honour……Is this the way honour is given to girls in circles of Ahlusunnah by exposing their thigs, and touching them?

We have already used this point before that ibn Hjar said that she was of that minor age

OPINION OF THOSE SCHOLARS WHO BELIEVE IN JUSTICE

These acts are so heinous that even those who belonged to sunni sect, they had to say it is wrong

Sibt ibn Jauzi said

ذكر جدي في كتاب منتظم ان علياً بعثها لينظرها و ان عمر كشف ساقها و لمسها بيده، هذا قبيح والله. لو كانت امة لما فعل بها هذا. ثم باجماع المسلمين لايجوز لمس الاجنبيه.

My grand father [meaning Ibn Jauzi] said in his book Muntazim that Imam Ali asws sent umm Kulthum to Umar so that he sees her, Umar exposed her thigh and touched that. By God! This is a very bad act, even if she was a slave girl, it should not have been done. And there is Ijma’a of muslim that it is haram to touch those who Not Mahram

سبط بن الجوزي الحنفي، شمس الدين أبوالمظفر يوسف بن فرغلي بن عبد الله البغدادي، تذكرة الخواص، ص288 ـ 289، ناشر: مؤسسة أهل البيت ـ بيروت، 1401هـ ـ 1981م.

OPINION OF SHIA SCHOLARS ABOUT THIS:

 

 

Shaheed Qadi Noor ul Shostari said about this:

 

 

وإني لأقسم بالله على أن ألف ضربة على جسده عليه السلام وأضعافه على جسد أولاده أهون عليه من أن يرسل ابنته الكريمة إلى رجل أجنبي قبل عقدها إياه ليريها فيأخذها ذلك الرجل ويضمها إليه ويقبلها ويكشف عن ساقها وهل يرضى بذلك من له أدنى غيرة من آحاد المسلمين.

 

I swear by God that it is nothing for Imam Ali asws to hit his body 1000 times, and hit the bodies of his progeny, more than this that he would send his daughter to someone who is Non-Mahram before marriage so that he sees her, touches her, kisses her, exposes her thigh. Any muslim who has some Gheerat/honour accept this?

الصوارم المهرقة – الشهيد نور الله التستري – ص 200

and Syed Nasir Hussein Al Hindi says

ومن العجائب أن واضع هذ الخبر لقلة حيائه قد افترى أن سياقه المنكر أن عمر بن الخطاب معاذ الله قد كشف ساق سيدتنا أم كلثوم (ع) وهذا كذب عظيم، وبهتان جسيم، تقشعر منه الجلود، وتنفر عنه كل قلب ولو كان الجلمود، ولعمري إن هذا المفتري الكذاب قد فاق في الفرية والفضيحة وبالجرأة والجسارة على مختلق السياق السابق الذي أورده ابن عبد البر، أولا بغير سند، فإن ذلك المختلق المدحور قد ذكر في سياق المذكور وضع اليد على الساق….
ومن البين أن وضع اليد على الساق وإن كان منكرا قبيحا جدا، ولكن هذا الخبيث الذي يقول: فكشف عن ساقها، يظهر خبثه صراحة…

And this is very strange that those who fabricated this narration, that they made it shamelessly which has rejected matan/subject that May Allah forgive us, that Umar exposed Thighs of Syeda Umm Kulthum asws, this is great lie. and a great charge which makes soul shiver, and dips one’s heart in sorrow. I swear by my life, that those who fabricated this narration, they have defeated in shamelessness, and lies those narration which has been narrated by ibn Abdul bar without chain. This is because that liar just spoke of hand being placed in thigh. And beware that it is very heinous, but that dirty man says that he exposed thigh, he showed his dirty mentality…………

الموسوي الهندي، السيد ناصر حسين (معاصر)، إفحام الأعداء والخصوم بتكذيب ما افتروه على سيدتنا امّ*كلثوم عليها سلام الحي القيوم، ج1، ص 169، تقديم وتحقيق وتعليق الدكتور محمد هادي الأميني، ناشر: مكتبة نينوى الحديثة ـ طهران.

 

 

Is it possible to think that Imam Ali asws will allow this to send his daughter before marriage to someone else?

We do believe that these narrations are fabricated, but we would ask this from the big guns of ahlusunnah likeh Dhabi, ibn Hajar who mentioned this in their books that Is it possible that a small girls is able to pick that it is a heinous act, but the caliph of muslims is not able to realize it?

 

 

If they believed that it was a bad act in deed, why did they quote it in their books after all?

 

UMM KULTHUM CALLS UMAR AMIR UL MOMINEEN 

 

 

It is strange in deed that in this story, When Umar exposes her thigh and kisses her, and She is able to pick the gravity of this bad act, and desires to make him blind by hitting him, despite that she calls him Amir ul Momineen……………..Just think

 

Syed Nasir Hussein al Hindi says in his book

ومما يدل على قلة حياء هؤلاء الكذابين أنهم ينسبون إلى سيدتنا أم كلثوم ( ع ) أنها وصفت عمر بن الخطاب بأمير المؤمنين ولا يشعرون أن السيدة التي ولدت في بيت النبوة وترعرعت من جرثومة الرسالة كيف تخاطب رجلا وضع يداه على ساقها، أو كشف ساقاها، واستحق عنده أن يكسر أنفه أو يلطم عينيه بهذا الخطاب الجليل.
ولعمري أن الواضع للسياق الأول أحق بالتعسير والتنديد، حيث أورد في سياقه بعد ذكر التشوير والتهديد، أنها لما جاءت أباها أخبرته الخبر، وقال: بعثتني إلى شيخ سوء، أفيكون هذا الشيخ الذي أسوأ المجسم مستحقا للوصف بأمرة المؤمنين؟ حاشا وكلا إن هذا لاختلاق واضح والله لا يهدي كيد الخائنين.

 

 

And those reasons which proves the lack of honour in those liars, is that they attribute to Umm Kulthum that she called Umar amir ul momineen…..But they dont realize that she was born in the household of Holy Prophet asws and groomed their. How is it possible that she calls that person with respect who had placed his hand on her thigh, exposed that, and deserved to be blinded or broke his nose in her opinion.

 

 

By God! the one who narrated first narration is more deserving of punishment because he wrote after talk of Umm Kulthum with Umar that when she returned to her father, she said that you had sent me to a Evil old Man…….how can that evil man be deserving of this title…For sure, it was not like that, and it is an open lie. And Allah will not let evil intentions of liars prevail 

 

الموسوي الهندي، السيد ناصر حسين (معاصر)، إفحام الأعداء والخصوم بتكذيب ما افتروه على سيدتنا امّ*كلثوم عليها سلام الحي القيوم، ج1، ص 169، تقديم وتحقيق وتعليق الدكتور محمد هادي الأميني، ناشر: مكتبة نينوى الحديثة ـ طهران.

MUGHAIRA INSULTS UMM KULTHUM AND UMAR TAKES NO ACTION

 

 

 

Ahlusunnah say that Umar had married Umm Kulthum, If this is true that why he did not take action when Mughaira insulted her? where was his honour?

Ibn Khalkan said

ثم إن أم جميل وافقت عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه بالموسم والمغيرة هناك فقال له عمر أتعرف هذه المرأة يا مغيرة قال نعم هذه أم كلثوم بنت علي فقال له عمر أتتجاهل علي والله ما أظن أبا بكرة كذب عليك وما رأيتك إلا خفت أن أرمى بحجارة من السماء.

 

 

 

Umm Jameel (She is the lady regarding whom 3 men had given testimony that she had done Zina with Mughaira, but when 4th one came, He kept quiet due to efforts of Umar, and Mughaira was saved for punishment) was with Umar in days of Haj. and Mughaira was also there. Umar asked Mughaira: Do you know her? He replied: Yes, she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali. Umar said: Why are you trying to be innocent, By God! I do not think that Abu Bakra said lie about you (that means he gave correct testimony of your zina). Whenever I see you, i fear that Stone would fall on me from sky as punishment

 

 

 

إبن خلكان، أبو العباس شمس الدين أحمد بن محمد بن أبي بكر (متوفاي681هـ)، وفيات الأعيان و انباء أبناء الزمان، ج6، ص366، تحقيق احسان عباس، ناشر: دار الثقافة – لبنان.

And Abu Faraj Isfahani said

حدثنا ابن عمار والجوهري قالا حدثنا عمر بن شبة قال حدثنا علي بن محمد عن يحيى بن زكريا عن مجالد عن الشعبي قال كانت أم جميل بنت عمر التي رمي بها المغيرة بن شعبة بالكوفة تختلف إلى المغيرة في حوائجها فيقضيها لها قال ووافقت عمر بالموسم والمغيرة هناك فقال له عمر أتعرف هذه قال نعم هذه أم كلثوم بنت علي فقال له عمر أتتجاهل علي والله ما أظن أبا بكرة كذب عليك وما رأيتك إلا خفت أن أرمى بحجارة من السماء

Umm Jameel, who was charged with zina with Mughaira, She was with Umar in Mecca. Umar asked him: do you know her? He said: yes, she is Umm Kulthum bint Ali. Umar said: why are you trying to pose innocent? by God! I dont think that Abu bakra lied about you. When i see you, i fear that I will be punished from sky in form of stone falling on me from there

الأصبهاني، أبو الفرج (متوفاي356هـ)، الأغاني، ج 16، ص 109، تحقيق: علي مهنا وسمير جابر، ناشر: دار الفكر للطباعة والنشر – لبنان.

Mughaira was well known for his Zina with Umm Jameel, and Umm Jameel was also known as adulterous. And he was comparing Umm Kulthum bint Ali asws with her. So if she was his wife, He should have felt the honour and taken action; otherwise we would think that either she was not his wife or he had no honour………..

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5th ANGLE: RESEARCHING THE EXCUSE GIVEN BY UMAR FOR MARRIAGE

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Ahlusunnah write that when Umar proposed Imam Ali, He denied it saying that she is a minor. But Umar insisted and gave a reason which he accepted, Let us see that reason

Abdur Razaq sana’ani says

تزوج عمر بن الخطاب أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب وهي جارية تلعب مع الجواري فجاء إلى أصحابه فدعوا له بالبركة فقال إني لم أتزوج من نشاط بي ولكن سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول إن كل سبب ونسب منقطع يوم القيامة إلا سببي ونسبي فأحببت أن يكون بيني وبين نبي الله صلي الله عليه وسلم سبب ونسب

umar bin Khitab married Umm Kulthum, She was a child and would play with girls, Umar went to his friends, and they prayed for him. Then Umar told them that I did not marry for the sake of YOuth, but I had heard from Prophet asws that all relations and lineage will end on the day of Judgement except mine. So i wished that I should have a relation between me and Holy Prophet asws

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 6، ص 164، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.

But it is accepted by Shia and sunni that Holy Prophet asws had married Hafsa, so why was he making this excuse then? He was already having a relation with Him. What is the difference it would make if you are father-in-law or son-in-law of a person, in either case, relation is made. If relation was to work, then his relation via Hafsa was enough. And if he had no trust on that, why would this relation be trustworthy? This shows that He was not having faith in His words in the first go

Syed Nasir Hussein says about this

وأما ما وقع في هذا الخبر المكذوب أن عمر قال للأصحاب: إن رسول الله ( ص ) قال: كل نسب وسبب منقطع يوم القيامة إلا نسبي وسببي، وكنت قد صحبته فأحببت أن يكون هذا أيضا.
فمردود لأن اتصال السبب من رسول الله ( ص ) لعمر بعد الصحبة كان حاصلا بلا شبهة عند أهل السنة من جهة أبنته حفصة: فإنها كانت من أزواج رسول الله ( ص )، وهذا الاتصال يكفي له أن كان عمر بن الخطاب مؤمنا مصدقا لقوله، وإن لم يكن مؤمنا مصدقا للرسول ( ص ) فما يزيده هذا الاتصال الذي طلبه من علي ( ع )

And what comes in this false news that Umar told his friends that Holy Prophet asws had said that all relations and lineage would cease except my relation and lineage, I was a Sahabi and wished that I have a relation to Prophet asws.
This is a rejected reason. This is because there is no difference that Umar was a sahabi and had a relation due to Hafsa, and she was Wife of Holy Prophet asws. And this relation was sufficient for Umar to connet to Prophet asws. And if he had no belief in this, What advantage would he get from the second relation for which he asked Imam Ali asws

الموسوي الهندي، السيد ناصر حسين (معاصر)، إفحام الأعداء والخصوم بتكذيب ما افتروه على سيدتنا امّ*كلثوم عليها سلام الحي القيوم، ج1، ص 140، تقديم وتحقيق وتعليق الدكتور محمد هادي الأميني، ناشر: مكتبة نينوى الحديثة ـ طهران.

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6th ANGLE: OPPOSITION OF THE SUNNAH OF HOLY PROPHET asws

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Allah says in Quran

لَّقَدْ كاَنَ لَكُمْ فىِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كاَنَ يَرْجُواْ اللَّهَ وَ الْيَوْمَ الاَْخِرَ وَ ذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا. الأحزاب / 21.

IN this verse, Allah told Momineen that Holy Prophet asws is the best example for you. The portion of the verse « لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ »shows continuity, that is it will remain, and He asws will be the role model. And this means his acts and sayings will have to be followed

HOLY PROPHET asws REJECTED PROPOSAL OF ABU BAKAR AND UMAR

Holy Prophet asws had rejected their proposal. and this is a well known fact, and this meant that These two were not deserving of Bibi Fatima asws in age, or faith, or others characteristics

Ibn Hajar Haithmi said in his book Sawaiq ul Mohariqqa

وأخرج أبو داود السجستاني أن أبا بكر خطبها فأعرض عنه صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم عمر فأعرض عنه فأتيا عليا فنبهاه إلى خطبتها فجاء فخطبها.

Abu Daood Sajistani wrote that Abu Bakar asked Holy Prophet asws for this, but he did not pay attention. then Umar asked for it, but He asws did not pay attention 

الهيثمي، أبو العباس أحمد بن محمد بن علي ابن حجر (متوفاي973هـ، الصواعق المحرقة على أهل الرفض والضلال والزندقة، ج 2، ص 471، تحقيق عبد الرحمن بن عبد الله التركي – كامل محمد الخراط، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417هـ – 1997م.

Ibn Haban writes in his Sahih, and Nisai in his Sunan

أخبرنا الْحُسَيْنُ بن حُرَيْثٍ قال حدثنا الْفَضْلُ بن مُوسَى عن الْحُسَيْنِ بن وَاقِدٍ عن عبد اللَّهِ بن بُرَيْدَةَ عن أبيه قال خَطَبَ أبو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ رضي الله عنهما فَاطِمَةَفقال رسول اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أنها صَغِيرَةٌ فَخَطَبَهَا عَلِيٌّ فَزَوَّجَهَا منه.

Abdullah bin Buraida narrates from his father that Abu Bakar and Umar proposed for Bibi Fatima asws, but He asws replied that She is Sagheera/of minor age, and she married her to Imam Ali asws

النسائي، أحمد بن شعيب أبو عبد الرحمن (متوفاي303 هـ)، خصائص أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، ج 1، ص 136، تحقيق: أحمد ميرين البلوشي، ناشر: مكتبة المعلا – الكويت الطبعة: الأولى، 1406 هـ؛

النسائي، أحمد بن شعيب أبو عبد الرحمن، المجتبى من السنن، ج 6، ص 62، تحقيق: عبدالفتاح أبو غدة، ناشر: مكتب المطبوعات الإسلامية – حلب، الطبعة: الثانية، 1406 – 1986؛

التميمي البستي، محمد بن حبان بن أحمد أبو حاتم (متوفاي354 هـ)، صحيح ابن حبان بترتيب ابن بلبان، ج 15، ص 399، تحقيق: شعيب الأرنؤوط، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1414هـ ـ 1993م؛

الهيثمي، أبو الحسن علي بن أبي بكر (متوفاي 807 هـ)، موارد الظمآن إلى زوائد ابن حبان، ج 1، ص 549، تحقيق: محمد عبد الرزاق حمزة، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت؛

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، النكت الظراف على الأطراف (تحفة الأشراف)، ج 2، ص 83، تحقيق: عبد الصمد شرف الدين، زهير الشاويش، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403 هـ – 1983 م؛

ملا علي القاري، علي بن سلطان محمد، مرقاة المفاتيح شرح مشكاة المصابيح، ج 11، ص 259، تحقيق: جمال عيتاني، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – لبنان/ بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1422هـ – 2001م .

Hakim mentioned this and said

هذا حديث صحيح على شرط الشيخين ولم يخرجاه.

It is sahih on terms of bukhari and Muslim, but they did not write it

النيسابوري، محمد بن عبدالله أبو عبدالله الحاكم (متوفاي405 هـ)، المستدرك على الصحيحين، ج 2، ص 181، تحقيق: مصطفى عبد القادر عطا، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1411هـ – 1990م.

This explains that the Sunnah of Holy Prophet asws is not give daughter of Ahlubait to Abu Bakar and Umar. So how is it possible that Imam Ali asws will reject this sunnah?

 

UMAR WAS REVIVING PROHIBITED ACTS OF ERA OF JAHILLIYA/IGNORANCE 

Another interesting thing which we find in these narrations is that Umar was reviving those acts of era of jahiliyya which had been prohibited by Holy Prophet asws. Ibn Saad wrote that when umar proposed, and got married, he came and told his friends

رفئوني فرفؤوه وقالوا بمن يا أمير المؤمنين قال بابنة علي بن أبي طالب.

Congratulate me, congratulate me [رفئوني فرفؤوه ], they said for what? He said for marrying daughter of Ali asws

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 463، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت؛

الخراساني، سعيد بن منصور (متوفاي227هـ)، سنن سعيد بن منصور، ج 1، ص 172، تحقيق: حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: الدار السلفية – الهند، الطبعة: الأولى، 1403هـ ـ 1982م؛

القرطبي، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبد البر (متوفاي463 هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1955، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ؛

ابن حمدون، محمد بن الحسن بن محمد بن علي (متوفاي608هـ)، التذكرة الحمدونية، ج 9، ص 309، تحقيق: إحسان عباس، بكر عباس، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت،، الطبعة: الأولى، 1996م؛

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ)، أسد الغابة في معرفة الصحابة، ج 7، ص 425، تحقيق عادل أحمد الرفاعي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1417 هـ – 1996 م؛

الانصاري التلمساني، محمد بن أبي بكر المعروف بالبري (متوفاي644هـ) الجوهرة في نسب النبي وأصحابه العشرة، ج 1، ص 259؛

الصفدي، صلاح الدين خليل بن أيبك (متوفاي764هـ)، الوافي بالوفيات، ج 15، ص 23، تحقيق أحمد الأرناؤوط وتركي مصطفى، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث – بيروت – 1420هـ- 2000م؛

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 8، ص 294، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

The word (رفئوني) or « بالرفاء والبنين » was used in era of jahilyya for congratulating, but when Holy Prophet asws came, he stopped this

Nauwi explained

وكانت ترفئة الجاهلية أن يقال ( بالرفاء والبنين ) ثم نهى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم عنها.

IN era of Jahiliyya, people would congratulate with ( بالرفاء والبنين ), but when Holy Prophet asws came, he prohibited it.

النووي، أبي زكريا محيي الدين (متوفاي676 هـ)، المجموع، ج 16، ص 205، ناشر: دار الفكر للطباعة والنشر والتوزيع، التكملة الثانية.

And A’ini wrote

قوله: ( بارك الله لك ) وهذه اللفظة ترد القول: بالرفاء والبنين، لأنه من أقوال الجاهلية، والنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم كان يكره ذلك لموافقتهم فيه، وهذا هو الحكمة في النهي.

The words: ( بارك الله لك ) cancels saying « بالرفاء والبنين » , because these were the saying of era of Jahiliyya. And Holy Prophet asws disliked it. and the reason for disliking it was to oppose act of jahiliya. And this is the reason for prohibiting it 

العيني، بدر الدين محمود بن أحمد (متوفاي 855هـ)، عمدة القاري شرح صحيح البخاري، ج 20، ص 146، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت.

Interestingly, as per narrations of Ahlusunnah, Hazrat Aqeel migrated in 8th Year, and then could not participate in many events due to illness, and that included sermons of Holy Prophet asws, but he was aware of this prohibition, where as Umar who is considered one of closest companions of Holy Prophet asws, He was not aware of it?

خرج إلى رسول الله مهاجرا في أول سنة ثمان فشهد غزوة مؤتة ثم رجع فعرض له مرض فلم يسمع له بذكر في فتح مكة ولا الطائف ولا خيبر ولا في حنين

He did Hijrat in start of 8th year, and then he saw battle of Mauta, and then came back and got ill, and then we did not hear of him in victory of Mecca, Taif, Khaiber, Hunain

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 4، ص 43، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

Ahmad bin Hanbal wrote in his Musnad

حدثنا عبد اللَّهِ حدثني أبي ثنا الْحَكَمُ بن نَافِعٍ حدثنا إسماعيل ابن عَيَّاشٍ عن سَالِمِ بن عبد بن عبد اللَّهِ عن عبد اللَّهِ بن مُحَمَّدِ بن عَقِيلٍ قال تَزَوَّجَ عَقِيلُ بن أبي طَالِبٍ فَخَرَجَ عَلَيْنَا فَقُلْنَا بِالرِّفَاءِ وَالْبَنِينِ فقال مَهْ لاَ تَقُولُوا ذلك فان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قدنهانا عن ذلك وقال قُولُوا بَارَكَ الله فِيكَ وَبَارَكَ الله فيها

When Aqeel married, we congratulated him with the words «بالرفاء والبنين»؛; he said: Dont use these words, Holy Prophet asws has forbidden it, rather say that May Allah bless you, and May Allah put blessing in it

الشيباني، أحمد بن حنبل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي241هـ)، مسند أحمد بن حنبل، ج 1، ص 201، ح1738، ناشر: مؤسسة قرطبة – مصر.

Will ahlusunnah accept that Umar was adamant on reviving what was prohibited by Holy Prophet?

Interestingly, we do see that scholars of ahlusunnah tried to defend Umar, but the excuse they make is even worse

Halabi writes

أن سيدنا عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه جاء إلى مجلس المهاجرين الأولين في الروضة فقال رفئوني فقالوا ماذا يا أمير المؤمنين قال تزوجت أم كلثوم بنت على هذا كلامه ولعل النهى لم يبلغ هؤلاء الصحابة حيث لم ينكروا قوله كما لم يبلغ سيدنا عمر رضي الله تعالى عنهم.

Our leader Umar, told those from Mohajireen who were sitting near Grave of Holy Prophet: congratulate me. they said for what? he said: I have married umm kulthum bint Ali asws. May be the news of prohibition from Prophet asws had not reached him

الحلبي، علي بن برهان الدين (متوفاي1044هـ)، السيرة الحلبية في سيرة الأمين المأمون، ج 2، ص 42، ناشر: دار المعرفة – بيروت – 1400هـ.

This explanation on part of Halabi is even worse. Because this shows that despite the fact that Umar ruled Muslims for years, still he was not aware of basic issues of religion. Was such person even worthy of being a caliph of Holy Prophet? Can such a person be guide of Muslim on the path of Islam? A person who spent years in companionship of Prophet, and the news did not reach him? Can they actually tell us about other rules which did not reach him?

COMBINING THE DAUGHTER OF HOLY PROPHET asws AND DAUGHTER OF ENEMY OF Allah

Some scholars of ahlusunnah mentioned that Imam Ali asws proposed to daughter of Abu Jahal, and when Bibi Fatima asws came to know about it, she disliked this. and complained to Holy Prophet asws, and He asws got angry and delivered a sermon and said

وَإِنَّ فَاطِمَةَ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي، وَإِنِّي أَكْرَهُ أَنْ يَسُوءَهَا، وَاللَّهِ لاَ تَجْتَمِعُ بِنْتُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَبِنْتُ عَدُوِّ اللَّهِ عِنْدَ رَجُل وَاحِد “. فَتَرَكَ عَلِيٌّ الْخِطْبَةَ.

Fatima asws is my part, And I dont like that someone angers her. By God! Daughter of Prophet asws and daughter of Enemy of Allah cannot be combined for one man……

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، صحيح البخاري، ج 3، ص 1364 ح 3523، كتاب فضائل الصحابة، ب 16، باب ذِكْرُ أَصْهَارِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْهُمْ أَبُو الْعَاصِ بْنُ الرَّبِيعِ، تحقيق د. مصطفى ديب البغا، ناشر: دار ابن كثير، اليمامة – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1407 – 1987.

And in another narration, we find

إِنَّ بَنِي هِشَامِ بن الْمُغِيرَةِ اسْتَأْذَنُوا في أَنْ يُنْكِحُوا ابْنَتَهُمْ عَلِيَّ بن أبي طَالِبٍ فلا آذَنُ ثُمَّ لَا آذَنُ ثُمَّ لَا آذَنُ إلا أَنْ يُرِيدَ بن أبي طَالِبٍ أَنْ يُطَلِّقَ ابْنَتِي وَيَنْكِحَ ابْنَتَهُمْ فَإِنَّمَا هِيَ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي يُرِيبُنِي ما أَرَابَهَا وَيُؤْذِينِي ما آذَاهَا.

Bani Hasham bin Mughaira seeked my permission to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abi Talib. I do not give permission. Then he said again: I dont give permission (twice), but that Ali asws gives divorce to my daughter and marries their. Because Fatima asws is my part, and her displeasure is my displeasure, and her pain is my pain 

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، صحيح البخاري، ج 5، ص 2004، ح4932، كِتَاب النِّكَاحِ، بَاب ذَبِّ الرَّجُلِ عن ابْنَتِهِ في الْغَيْرَةِ وَالْإِنْصَافِ، تحقيق د. مصطفى ديب البغا، ناشر: دار ابن كثير، اليمامة – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1407 – 1987.

Since this was a matter talking about Imam Ali asws, these scholars of ahlusunnah mentioned this in their books including Sahih books. And said that Imam Ali asws had annoyed Bibi Fatima asws

Now,we ask that if this is true that daughter of Prophet asws and daughter of enemy of Allah cannot be combined as mentioned by these scholars, Why Umar acted on this Haram act?

Fatima bint Walid bin Mughaira, she is that lady who married Umar in year 18 hijri, the same year he allegedly married Umm Kulthum

And Walid bin Mughaira was one of the leaders of Kuffar of Quraish, and one of those who were killed in Battle of Badr. and the verse in Quran«ذرنى ومن خلقت وحيدا» was revealed for him

Ibn Saad writes

عبد الرحمن بن الحارث بن هشام بن المغيرة بن عبد الله بن عمر بن مخزوم بن يقظة بن مرة وأمه فاطمة بنت الوليد بن المغيرة بن عبد الله بن عمر بن مخزوم ويكنى عبد الرحمن أبا محمد وكان بن عشر سنين حين قبض النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ومات أبوه الحارث بن هشام في طاعون عمواس بالشام سنة ثماني عشرة فخلف عمر بن الخطاب على امرأته فاطمة بنت الوليد بن المغيرة وهي أم عبد الرحمن بن الحارث

Abdur Rehman bin Harith bin Hasham bin Mughaira, His mother was Fatima bint Mughaira. When Holy Prophet asws died, he was 10 years old. His father Harith bin Hasham died in 18 hijri from plague. then Umar married her, and she is mother of Abdur Rehman bin Harith

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 5، ص 5، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

Ibn Hajar also mentioned this under heading of Abdur Rehman bin Harith

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ)، الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة، ج 5، ص 29، رقم: 6204، تحقيق: علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412 – 1992.

Now, If it was haram to combine daughter of Prophet with that of enemy of Allah, why did Umar do this? [May be Halabi says Umar did not get this news either. Walid bin Mughaira was an enemy of Allah like Abu jahal

So, If ahlusunnah are adamant that Umm Kulthum married Umar, then they have to accept that He acted on a forbidden act as well.

Keep in mind that it is not possible that Imam Ali asws would go against the teachings of Holy Prophet asws, He himself says in Najh ul Balaga

وَ لَقَدْ كُنْتُ أَتَّبِعُهُ اتِّبَاعَ الْفَصِيلِ أَثَرَ أُمِّهِ يَرْفَعُ لِي فِي كُلِّ يَوْم مِنْ أَخْلَاقِهِ عَلَماً وَ يَأْمُرُنِي بِالِاقْتِدَاءِ.

And I followed Him like a Child-camle follows his mother. And He asws would raise a flag of knowledge for me every day, and order me to follow that.

نهج البلاغه، صبحي صالح، خطبه 198.

.

7th ANGLE: UMAR WAS NOT COMPATIBLE/KUFV TO UMM KULTHUM

.

When we observe the character and lineage of Umar, and compare that with Umm Kulthum, we reach this result that they were not compatible (kufv) to each other.

 

Umm Kulthum was Grand daughter of Holy Prophet asws, and was raised by Bibi Fatima asws. But Umar on the other hand, as per writings of ahlusunnah, spent 2/3 of his life in idol worship. And was raised by lady like Hantama

 

 

As per scholars of Ahlusunnah, Umar was a strict man, who had bad character and ill tempered nature. Where as Umm Kulthum was a minor, innocent girl, from the family who showed the world how nature of a great human being should be.

 

 

Umm Kulthum was around 7-8 years as per their writings, not more than that. Where as Umar was around 57.

We would look into the compatibility issue of Umar with Umm Kulthum asws from ahlusunnah's perspective

1- Non-Hashmi is not compatible to Hashmi as per ahlusunnah

{There may be different opinions in this regards amongst Shias, But we would look into this issue from Sunni perspective, since they are the one who are claiming for this marriage, so they need to see their own conditions in this regards}

 

 

Some scholars of Ahlusunnah have said that it is must that there is compatibility in regards to religion and lineage for marriage. And that Non-Quraishi is not compatible to Quraishi, and Non-Hashimi is not compatible to Hashmi. This is due to the fact that Bani Hashim had a glory due to Holy Prophet asws, and this makes it incompatible

This made Imam Ali asws keep his daughters for sons of Jafar

أَنَّ عُمَرَ خَطَبَ إِلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ابْنَتَهُ أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَقَالَ عَلِيٌّ إِنَّمَا حَبَسْتُ بَنَاتِي عَلَى بَنِي جَعْفَرٍ.

Umar proposed to Imam Ali asws for his daughter Umm kulthum. So he said: I have kept my daughters for sons of Jafar

الخراساني، سعيد بن منصور (متوفاي 227هـ)، سنن سعيد بن منصور، ج 1، ص 172، ح520، تحقيق: حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر:الدار السلفية - الهند، الطبعة: الأولى، 1403هـ ـ 1982م.

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 463، ناشر: دار صادر - بيروت.

Bajiri Shafai clearly said that Holy Prophet asws did not marry Bibi Fatima asws to abu bakar and umar due to the fact that they were not compatible

وفي شرح الخصائص: وخُصّ أن آله لا يكافئهم في النكاح أحد من الخلق وأما تزويج فاطمة لعليّ، فقيل: إنه لم يكن إذ ذاك كفؤاً لها سواه... وزوّجت له بأمر الله لما رواه الطبراني عن ابن مسعود: أنه لما خطبها منه أبو بكر وعمر ردهما وقال: ( إن الله أمرني أن أُزَوّج فاطِمَةَ مِنْ عَليّ )

It is written in Sharah Khasais that No one is compatible in Nikah to household of Prophet asws. And in regards to marriage of Fatima asws with Ali asws, it is said that it was due to the fact that there was no other kufv. And they married due to order of Allah. Tabarani narrated from Ibn Masoor that When abu bakar and umar proposed Fatima asws, Holy Prophet asws rejected that, and he said: Allah has ordered me to marry Fatima to Ali asws..............

البجيرمي الشافعي، سليمان بن محمد بن عمر (متوفاي1221هـ)، تحفة الحبيب على شرح الخطيب ج 4، ص 89، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت/ لبنان - 1417هـ ـ 1996م، الطبعة: الأولى.

And it is written in footnotes of Minhaj ul Talab that

فَالنَّسَبُ مُعْتَبَرٌ بِالْآبَاءِ إلَّا أَوْلَادُ بَنَاتِهِ، صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَإِنَّهُمْ يُنْسَبُونَ إلَيْهِ فَلَا يُكَافِئُهُمْ غَيْرُهُمْ ح ل ( قَوْلُهُ وَاصْطَفَانِي مِنْ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ ) فِيهِ دَلَالَةٌ عَلَى بَعْضِ الْمُدَّعَى وَهُوَ قَوْلُهُ وَلَا غَيْرُ هَاشِمِيٍّ وَمُطَّلِبِيٍّ كُفُؤًا لَهُمَا.

Lineage is true only from father, except for Holy Prophet asws whose lineage was via His daughter, and they are attributed to Him. No one is compatible to them. And the saying that {I was chosen from Bani Hashim, there is proof in it for Non-Hashimi and Matlabi (?) are not compatible to them

البجيرمي الشافعي، سليمان بن محمد بن عمر (متوفاي1221هـ)، حاشية البجيرمي على منهج الطلاب، ج 3، ص 417، ناشر: المكتبة الإسلامية - ديار بكر – تركيا.

As per saying of Bajirimi, daughter of Household of Prophet asws was not compatible to others, and so He did not marry Bibi Fatima asws to Abu Bakar and Umar. So will Imam Ali asws act against it.

And Moqadasi Hanbali wrote this opinion from Ahmad bin Hanbal

وعنه [احمد بن حنبل] أن غير قريش لا يكافئهم وغير بني هاشم لا يكافئهم لقول النبي (ص) إن الله اصطفى كنانة من ولد إسماعيل واصطفى من كنانة قريشا واصطفى من قريش بني هاشم واصطفاني من بني هاشم.

Ahmad bin Hanbal said that Non-Quraishi is not kufv to Quraish, and Non-bani Hashim is not Kufv to them as per Saying of Holy Prophet asws that
Allah selected Kanana from progeny of Ismail, and Quraish from Kanana, and Bani Hashim from Quraish, and selected Me from Bani Hashim

المقدسي، عبد الله بن أحمد بن قدامة أبو محمد (متوفاي620هـ)، الكافي في فقه الإمام المبجل أحمد بن حنبل، ج 3، ص 31، ناشر: المكتب الاسلامي – بيروت.

Shahab ud Deen Qalyoobi said it clearly, that a Non-Hashmi cannot be kufv to Bani Hashim

قوله: ( وبنو هاشم إلخ ) نعم الأشراف الأحرار منهم لا يكافئهم غيرهم، وخرج بالأحرار ما لو تزوج هاشمي برقيقة بشرطه، وولدت بنتا فهي مملوكة لسيد الأمة وله تزويجها برقيق ودنيء النسب وإن كانت هاشمية لأن تزويجها بالملكية، ولذلك لو زوجها السلطان بذلك لم يصح.

Non-Hashmi cannot be kufv to free Bani Hashim……….

القليوبي، شهاب الدين أحمد بن أحمد بن سلامة (متوفاي1069هـ)، حاشيتان. قليوبي: على شرح جلال الدين، المحلي على منهاج الطالبين، ج 3، ص 236 تحقيق: مكتب البحوث والدراسات، ناشر: دار الفكر – لبنان، الطبعة: الأولى، 1419هـ – 1998م.

Can the lineage of Umar and Umm Kulthum be compared? can Sahak be compared to Bibi Khadija and Hantama to Bibi Fatima asws? Can Khitab be compared to Holy Prophet asws and Imam Ali asws?

Interestingly, Umar himself, was very strict in regards to Kufv, and prohibited marrying a girl of high caste to that of lower one.

Sarkhasi writes

وبلغنا عن عمر رضي الله عنه أنه قال لأمنعن النساء فروجهن الا من الأكفاء… وفيه دليل أن الكفاءة في النكاح معتبرة.

And it reached us that Umar said that I will prohibit marriage of women except to those who are kufv. And in this there is proof that Ikfa is required in Nikah 

السرخسي، شمس الدين أبو بكر محمد بن أبى سهل (متوفي483هـ)، المبسوط، ج 4، ص 196، ناشر: دار المعرفة – بيروت.

Abdur Razaq Sana’ani says

عن إبراهيم بن محمد بن طلحة قال قال عمر بن الخطاب لأمنعن فروج ذوات الأحساب إلا من الأكفاء.

Umar said that I will prevent marriage of those with lineage except to their kufv

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 6، ص 152، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403

البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ)، أنساب الأشراف، ج 3، ص 96؛

المقدسي، عبد الله بن أحمد بن قدامة أبو محمد (متوفاي620هـ)، المغني في فقه الإمام أحمد بن حنبل الشيباني، ج 7، ص 26، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1405هـ.

السيواسي، كمال الدين محمد بن عبد الواحد (متوفاي681هـ)، شرح فتح القدير، ج 3، ص 292، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية.

ابن تيميه الحراني، أحمد عبد الحليم أبو العباس (متوفاي 728 هـ)، كتب ورسائل وفتاوى شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية، ج 19، ص 28، تحقيق: عبد الرحمن بن محمد بن قاسم العاصمي النجدي، ناشر: مكتبة ابن تيمية، الطبعة: الثانية.

But was he himself taking care of this rule? was the compatibility in regards to age and lineage catered for in this?

2- Umar was not kufv to Umm Kulthum in regards to age

None other than Umar himself, was against marrying young ladies to older men

Saeed bin Mansoor writes

أُتِيَ عُمَرُ بنُ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ بِامْرَأَةٍ شَابَّةٍ زَوَّجُوهَا شَيْخَاً كَبِيرَاً فَقَتَلَتْهُ، فَقَالَ: أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ، وَلْيَنْكَحِ الرَّجُلُ لُمَّتَهُ مِنَ النسَاءِ، وَلْتَنْكَحِ المَرْأَةُ لُمَّتَهَا مِنَ الرجَالِ يَعْنِي شِبْهَهَا

A young lady was brought to Umar who was married to an older man, and she had killed him. So he said: O People! Fear Allah. It is must on men to marry their equal in women, and women should marry men equal to them

الخراساني، سعيد بن منصور (متوفاي227هـ)، سنن سعيد بن منصور، ج 1، ص 243، ح809، تحقيق: حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: الدار السلفية – الهند، الطبعة: الأولى، 1403هـ ـ 1982م .

السيوطي، جلال الدين عبد الرحمن بن أبي بكر (متوفاي911هـ)، جامع الاحاديث (الجامع الصغير وزوائده والجامع الكبير)، ج 14، ص
263

الهيثمي، أبو العباس أحمد بن محمد بن علي ابن حجر (متوفاي973هـ)، الإفصاح عن أحاديث النكاح، ج 1، ص 32، تحقيق: محمد شكور أمرير المياديني، ناشر: دار عمار – عمان – الأردن، الطبعة: الأولى، 1406هـ.

 

 

Was this thing kept in mind in this marriage?

As per scholars of ahlusunnah, this marriage was done in 17 hijri as has been said by Ibn Athir

وفيها أعني سنة سبع عشرة… تزوج عمر أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب.

in 17 Hjri, umar married Umm Kulthum……

الجزري، عز الدين بن الأثير أبي الحسن علي بن محمد (متوفاي630هـ) الكامل في التاريخ، ج 2، ص 382، تحقيق عبد الله القاضي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة الثانية، 1415هـ.

النويري، شهاب الدين أحمد بن عبد الوهاب (متوفاي733هـ)، نهاية الأرب في فنون الأدب، ج 19، ص215 ـ 220، تحقيق مفيد قمحية وجماعة، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1424هـ – 2004م.

أبو الفداء عماد الدين إسماعيل بن علي (متوفاي732هـ)، المختصر في أخبار البشر، ج 1، ص
111

ابن الجوزي، أبو الفرج عبد الرحمن بن علي بن محمد (متوفاي 597 هـ)، المنتظم في تاريخ الملوك والأمم، ج 4، ص236 ـ 237، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1358.

Umm Kulthum was born in the last years of Holy Prophet asws, so her age cannot be more than 7 or 8 at that time. Ibn Saad writes

تزوجها عمر بن الخطاب وهي جارية لم تبلغ.

Umar married when she was a child and not reached adulthood

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 463، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

On the other hand, Umar was killed in 23 hijri at age of 63 years. So his age was 57. So a gap of about 50 years. Can there be any Ikfa in this case?

Do remember that Holy Prophet asws had rejected umar’s proposal for Bibi Fatima asws on grounds of age

Ibn Haban writes in his sahih, and Nisai says as well

أخبرنا الْحُسَيْنُ بن حُرَيْثٍ قال حدثنا الْفَضْلُ بن مُوسَى عن الْحُسَيْنِ بن وَاقِدٍ عن عبد اللَّهِ بن بُرَيْدَةَ عن أبيه قال خَطَبَ أبو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ رضي الله عنهما فَاطِمَةَفقال رسول اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أنها صَغِيرَةٌ فَخَطَبَهَا عَلِيٌّ فَزَوَّجَهَا منه.

Abdullah bin Buraida narrates from his father that Abu Bakar and Umar proposed bibi Fatima asws, so He asws replied that she is Sagheera, And when Ali proposed her, He married her

النسائي، أحمد بن شعيب أبو عبد الرحمن (متوفاي303 هـ)، خصائص أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب، ج 1، ص 136، تحقيق: أحمد ميرين البلوشي، ناشر: مكتبة المعلا – الكويت الطبعة: الأولى، 1406 هـ؛

النسائي، أحمد بن شعيب أبو عبد الرحمن، المجتبى من السنن، ج 6، ص 62، تحقيق: عبدالفتاح أبو غدة، ناشر: مكتب المطبوعات الإسلامية – حلب، الطبعة: الثانية، 1406 - 1986

Any intellectual mind can observe that If there was a gap between Bibi Fatima asws and Umar, then there would be HUGE gap between her daughter and Umar. Where as the sunnah was to reject proposal of Umar on the grounds of age

He himself, believed in “not marrying” on the grounds of age difference, but what is happening in this case?

Does it not remind us of the verse

أَتَأْمُرُونَ النَّاسَ بِالْبرِِّ وَ تَنسَوْنَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَ أَنتُمْ تَتْلُونَ الْكِتَابَ أَ فَلا تَعْقِلُون‏ البقرة /44.

You order other people to do good, and you forget yourself…..

3- The bad character of Umar: A barrier for his marriages 

 

It is a natural thing that One would not marry his daughter to a person who is ill-natured

where as we find in Umar that his strictness, or should we say ill nature was famous in people, and people had rejected giving him their daughter. Since we have already talked of that in Our Persian article, we will not go into the details of those. we will just give you a few examples here

a) Daughter of Atba rejects to marry Umar due to his nature

 

Baladari, Tibri, and Ibn Kathir wrote that when Yazid bin Abu Sufian died, umar proposed His wife Umm Raban bint Atba, but she rejected it saying

لأنّه يدخل عابساً، ويخرج عابساً، يغلق أبوابه، ويقلّ خيره.

When he enters, he is strick, when he leaves, he is strick. He closes the doors and is less in goodness 

 

 

البلاذري، أحمد بن يحيى بن جابر (متوفاي279هـ) أنساب الأشراف، ج 3، ص 260؛

الدينوري، أبو محمد عبد الله بن مسلم ابن قتيبة (متوفاي276هـ)، عيون الأخبار، ج 1، ص 379؛

الطبري، أبي جعفر محمد بن جرير (متوفاي310هـ)، تاريخ الطبري، ج 2، ص 564، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت؛

الشيباني، أبو الحسن علي بن أبي الكرم محمد بن محمد بن عبد الكريم (متوفاي630هـ)، الكامل في التاريخ، ج 2، ص 451، تحقيق عبد الله القاضي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة الثانية، 1415هـ؛

القرشي الدمشقي، إسماعيل بن عمر بن كثير أبو الفداء (متوفاي774هـ)، البداية والنهاية، ج 7، ص 139،، ناشر: مكتبة المعارف – بيروت.

b) Daughter of Abu Bakar rejects Him due to his nature

 

 

 

Those who said that She rejected Him, they said it was due to his nature

Ibn Abdul Bar says that she told Ayesha that If she desires that she should marry a man with bad character and strict. How can I spend my life with him

then she says

والله لئن فعلتِ لأخرجنّ إلى قبر رسول الله ولأصيحنّ به

By God! If you do this, I will go to grave of Holy Prophet asws, and cry there

إبن عبد البر، يوسف بن عبد الله بن محمد (متوفاي463هـ)، الاستيعاب في معرفة الأصحاب، ج 4، ص 1807، تحقيق علي محمد البجاوي، ناشر: دار الجيل – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1412هـ.

Just imagine, the fast friend of umar, his daughter was not willing to marry him due to his character. Why would Imam Ali asws ignore this?

c) Umar would beat his wife 

 

 

Umar also had this “great character” of hitting and beating his wife. Ibn Maja said that Ashath bin Qais said

ضِفْتُ عُمَرَ لَيْلَةً فلما كان في جَوْفِ اللَّيْلِ قام إلى امْرَأَتِهِ يَضْرِبُهَا فَحَجَزْتُ بَيْنَهُمَا.

Once i was his guest, When it was mid-night, Umar started hitting his wife, I had to step in to separate them

and when Umar came to him, he said

فلما أَوَى إلى فِرَاشِهِ قال لي يا أَشْعَثُ احْفَظْ عَنِّي شيئا سَمِعْتُهُ عن رسول اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَا يُسْأَلُ الرَّجُلُ فِيمَ يَضْرِبُ امْرَأَتَهُ.

O Ashath! i have heard one saying of Holy Prophet asws, he said that a man will not be asked for beating his wife

القزويني، محمد بن يزيد أبو عبدالله (متوفاي275هـ)، سنن ابن ماجه، ج 1، ص 639 ح1986، بَاب ضَرْبِ النِّسَاءِ، تحقيق محمد فؤاد عبد الباقي، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت؛

المقدسي الحنبلي، أبو عبد الله محمد بن عبد الواحد بن أحمد (متوفاي643هـ)، الأحاديث المختارة، ج 1، ص 189، تحقيق عبد الملك بن عبد الله بن دهيش، ناشر: مكتبة النهضة الحديثة – مكة المكرمة، الطبعة: الأولى، 1410هـ؛

المزي، يوسف بن الزكي عبدالرحمن أبو الحجاج (متوفاي742هـ)، تهذيب الكمال، ج 18، ص 31، تحقيق د. بشار عواد معروف، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة – بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1400هـ – 1980م؛

القرشي الدمشقي، إسماعيل بن عمر بن كثير أبو الفداء (متوفاي774هـ)، تفسير القرآن العظيم، ج 1، ص 493، ناشر: دار الفكر – بيروت – 1401هـ.

A similar narration comes in Musnad Ahmad

الشيباني، أحمد بن حنبل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي241هـ)، مسند الإمام أحمد بن حنبل، ج 1، ص 20 ، ناشر: مؤسسة قرطبة – مصر.

Will any intellectual man ever give his daughter to a person who has this repute and character?

4) Umar was not kufv to Umm Kulthum in regards to religion

As per opinion of Ahlusunnah, compatilbity in regards to religion is also required as a pre-requisite for marriage

Abu Talib Makki narrates from Sufian Thori

وكان الثوري يقول: إذا تزوّج الرجل وقال: أي شيء للمرأة فاعلم أنه لصّ، فلا تزوّجوه، ولا ينكح إلى مبتدع، ولا فاسق، ولا ظالم، ولا شارب خمر، ولا أكل الربا، فمن فعل ذلك فقد ثلم دينه، وقطع رحمه، ولم يحسن الولاية لكريمته، لأنه ترك الإحسان، وليس هؤلاء أكفاء للحرة المسلمة العفيفة.

Sufian Thori said: When a man is marrying, and he says: how much money this lady has, know that he is a thief, and do not marry him. Similarly do not marry a Bidaati, sinner, Zalim/cruel, one who drinks wine, uses interest money; and whosoever goes against it, he has made a dent in his religion, and did not had mercy on his daughter, and was not a nice guardian, and left good. This is because they are not kufv to a pious muslim girl 

أبو طالب المكي، محمد بن علي بن عطية الحارثي (متوفاي286هـ)، قوت القلوب في معاملة المحبوب ووصف طريق المريد إلى مقام التوحيد، ج 2، ص 414، تحقيق: د.عاصم إبراهيم الكيالي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1426هـ -2005 م.

Ibn Qadama Moqaddasi, who is a Hanbli Faqih, explains that Kufv in regards to religion is a must in marriage, and a sinner cannot marry a pious lady. He also wrote that No nation can be kufv to Bani Hashim 

فصل: والكفء ذو الدين والمنصب فلا يكون الفاسق كفءا لعفيفة لأنه مردود الشهادة… وعنه [احمد بن حنبل] أن غير قريش لا يكافئهم وغير بني هاشم لا يكافئهم لقول النبي (ص) إن الله اصطفى كنانة من ولد إسماعيل واصطفى من كنانة قريشا واصطفى من قريش بني هاشم واصطفاني من بني هاشم.

Chapter: And kufv is for religion and status, and a sinner cannot be kufv to a pious lady. This is because his testimony is rejected……And Ahmad bin Hanbal said that Non Quraish are not kufv to Quraish, and Non Bani Hashim are non Kufv to Bani Hashim as per Saying of Prophet asws that Allah chose Kanana from progeny of Ismail, and chose Quraish from Kanana, and chose Bani Hashim from Quraish, and chose Me from Bani Hashim

المقدسي، عبد الله بن أحمد بن قدامة أبو محمد (متوفاي620هـ)، الكافي في فقه الإمام المبجل أحمد بن حنبل، ج 3، ص 31، ناشر: المكتب الاسلامي – بيروت.

the narration mentioned by Qadama has been included by Muslim in his sahih from Wathila

النيسابوري، مسلم بن الحجاج أبو الحسين القشيري (متوفاي261هـ)، صحيح مسلم، ج 4، ص 1782، ح2276، كِتَاب الْفَضَائِلِ، بَاب فَضْلِ نَسَبِ النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، تحقيق: محمد فؤاد عبد الباقي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت.

NOW

Let us see how Umar fits with these conditions

1) Imam Ali considered Umar to be cruel, sinners, liar, corrupt

Ibn Qadama clarified that with these conditions, a man cannot be kufv to a pious lady.

We already know that Umar was not in Bani Hashim, But these conditions as we mentioned in heading, add fuel to fire. Ahlusunnah always try to give justifications for these opinions of Imam Ali asws, but this has come to us with authentic chains, and they are unable to give satisfactory answer

1st Narration

Abdur Razaq Sana’ani narrates with authentic chain from Umar that he told Abbas and Imam Ali asws

ثم وليتها بعد أبي بكر سنتين من إمارتي فعملت فيها بما عمل رسول الله (ص) وأبو بكر وأنتما تزعمان أني فيها ظالم فاجر….

I ruled for 2 years after Abu Bakar, and did what was done by Holy Prophet asws and Abu Bakar, and you two consider me cruel, sinner

إبن أبي شيبة الكوفي، أبو بكر عبد الله بن محمد (متوفاي235 هـ)، الكتاب المصنف في الأحاديث والآثار، ج 5، ص 469، ح9772، تحقيق: كمال يوسف الحوت، ناشر: مكتبة الرشد – الرياض، الطبعة: الأولى، 1409هـ.

2nd Narration

Muslim writes in his Sahih that Umar said

ثُمَّ تُوُفِّىَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَنَا وَلِىُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ -صلى الله عليه وسلم- وَوَلِىُّ أَبِى بَكْرٍ فَرَأَيْتُمَانِى كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا.

After death of Abu Bakar, I am Wali/successor of Prophet asws and Wali/successor of Abu Bakar, and you consider me to be liar, sinners, cheat, corrupt 

النيسابوري، مسلم بن الحجاج أبو الحسين القشيري (متوفاي261هـ)، صحيح مسلم، ج 3، ص 1378، ح 1757، كِتَاب الْجِهَادِ وَالسِّيَرِ، بَاب حُكْمِ الْفَيْءِ، تحقيق: محمد فؤاد عبد الباقي، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت.

This is the true representation of Imam Ali’s view as depicted by Umar himself. The proof is that Imam Ali asws did not negate him. So would Imam Ali asws give his daughter to man with these qualities? will any intellectual man do that?

As per Bukhari’s Sahih, there are four signs of Hypocrite: Liar, Sinners, Cheat, Corrupt 

Let us see

حدثنا سُلَيْمَانُ أبو الرَّبِيعِ قال حدثنا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بن جَعْفَرٍ قال حدثنا نَافِعُ بن مَالِكِ بن أبي عَامِرٍ أبو سُهَيْلٍ عن أبيه عن أبي هُرَيْرَةَ عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال آيَةُ الْمُنَافِقِ ثَلَاثٌ إذا حَدَّثَ كَذَبَ وإذا وَعَدَ أَخْلَفَ وإذا أؤتمن خَانَ
حدثنا قَبِيصَةُ بن عُقْبَةَ قال حدثنا سُفْيَانُ عن الْأَعْمَشِ عن عبد اللَّهِ بن مُرَّةَ عن مَسْرُوقٍ عن عبد اللَّهِ بن عَمْرٍو أَنَّ النبي (ص) قال أَرْبَعٌ من كُنَّ فيه كان مُنَافِقًا خَالِصًا وَمَنْ كانت فيه خَصْلَةٌ مِنْهُنَّ كانت فيه خَصْلَةٌ من النِّفَاقِ حتى يَدَعَهَا إذا أؤتمن خَانَ وإذا حَدَّثَ كَذَبَ وإذا عَاهَدَ غَدَرَ وإذا خَاصَمَ فَجَرَ تَابَعَهُ شُعْبَةُ عن الْأَعْمَشِ.

Abu hurraira narrates from Prophet asws said that Hypocrite has 3 signs:

1- When he speaks, he lies.
2- when he makes a promise, he breaks it
3- when he is trusted, he would deceit 

and Abdullah bin Amro narrates from Prophet asws that if 4 signs are present in someone, he is a hypocrite for sure, and if there is one then he has a sign of hypocrisy till he leaves it.

1- He would deceive when trused (خَانَ)
2- When he speaks, he would lie (كَذَبَ)
3- when he makes promise, he would break (غَدَرَ)
4- when he becomes enemy, he would do fajar (فَجَرَ) {meaning sin etc}

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، صحيح البخاري، ج 1، ص 21، ح 33 و 34، كِتَاب الْإِيمَانِ، بَاب عَلَامَةِ الْمُنَافِقِ، تحقيق د. مصطفى ديب البغا، ناشر: دار ابن كثير، اليمامة – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1407 – 1987.

And the qualities mentioned by Umar himself were

ثُمَّ تُوُفِّىَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَنَا وَلِىُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ -صلى الله عليه وسلم- وَوَلِىُّ أَبِى بَكْرٍ فَرَأَيْتُمَانِى كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا.

This proves it without doubt that Imam Ali asws considered him to be a Hypocrite, and so he cannot be kufv to a pious lady

2) Drinker cannot be kufv

Ahlusunnah said that it is not permitted to give daughter to a drinker, and if someone is doing that, he is not a good guardian as we said in regards to Sufian thori when he was quoted by Abu talib Makki

وكان الثوري يقول: إذا تزوّج الرجل وقال: أي شيء للمرأة فاعلم أنه لصّ، فلا تزوّجوه، ولا ينكح إلى مبتدع، ولا فاسق، ولا ظالم، ولا شارب خمر، ولا أكل الربا، فمن فعل ذلك فقد ثلم دينه، وقطع رحمه، ولم يحسن الولاية لكريمته، لأنه ترك الإحسان، وليس هؤلاء أكفاء للحرة المسلمة العفيفة.

أبو طالب المكي، محمد بن علي بن عطية الحارثي (متوفاي286هـ)، قوت القلوب في معاملة المحبوب ووصف طريق المريد إلى مقام التوحيد، ج 2، ص 414، تحقيق: د.عاصم إبراهيم الكيالي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1426هـ -2005 م.

Abdur Razaq bin Hamam, who is teacher of Bukhari, says

حدثنا أبو بكر قال حدثنا بن مسهر عن الشيباني عن حسان بن مخارق قال بلغني أن عمر بن الخطاب ساير رجلا في سفر وكان صائما فلما أفطر أهوى إلى قربة لعمر معلقة فيها نبيذ قد خضخضها البعير فشرب منها فسكر فضربه عمر الحد فقال له إنما شربت من قربتك فقال له عمر إنما جلدناك لسكرك.

Once Umar was going on a Journey with a person who was fasting. When he did Iftaar, so he drank from Umar’s bottle which had Nabeedh, he drank it, and got intoxicated/drunk . Umar punished him, so he said: I drank from your bottle. He said I punished you for getting intoxicated 

الصنعاني، أبو بكر عبد الرزاق بن همام (متوفاي211هـ)، المصنف، ج 5، ص 502، ح28401، تحقيق حبيب الرحمن الأعظمي، ناشر: المكتب الإسلامي – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1403هـ.

Ibn Abd Raba says in Aqd ul Farid

وقال الشعبي شرب أعرابي من إداوة عمر فانتشى فحده عمر وإنما حده للسكر لا للشراب.

Sho’bi said that a Bedouin drank from Umar’s bottle, and got drunk, He punished him and this was due to getting “drunk”, an not due to drink 

الأندلسي، احمد بن محمد بن عبد ربه (متوفاي 328هـ)، العقد الفريد، ج 6، ص 382، ناشر: دار إحياء التراث العربي – بيروت / لبنان، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1420هـ – 1999م.

Our question is What was intoxicating drink doing in Umar’s bottle? May be he had punished him due to the fact that the person exposed his drink……………….{keep in mind that a habitual wont be “knocked out” with small amounts, but this is not the case with the one drinking for the first time}

3) A Bidaati cannot be kufv to a pious lady

We have mentioned that Sufian thori said 

وكان الثوري يقول: إذا تزوّج الرجل وقال: أي شيء للمرأة فاعلم أنه لصّ، فلا تزوّجوه، ولا ينكح إلى مبتدع، ولا فاسق، ولا ظالم، ولا شارب خمر، ولا أكل الربا، فمن فعل ذلك فقد ثلم دينه، وقطع رحمه، ولم يحسن الولاية لكريمته، لأنه ترك الإحسان، وليس هؤلاء أكفاء للحرة المسلمة العفيفة.

أبو طالب المكي، محمد بن علي بن عطية الحارثي (متوفاي286هـ)، قوت القلوب في معاملة المحبوب ووصف طريق المريد إلى مقام التوحيد، ج 2، ص 414، تحقيق: د.عاصم إبراهيم الكيالي، ناشر: دار الكتب العلمية – بيروت، الطبعة: الثانية، 1426هـ -2005 م.

But we find in Sahih Bukhari

وَعَنْ بن شِهَابٍ عن عُرْوَةَ بن الزُّبَيْرِ عن عبد الرحمن بن عَبْدٍ القارىء أَنَّهُ قال خَرَجْتُ مع عُمَرَ بن الْخَطَّابِ رضي الله عنه لَيْلَةً في رَمَضَانَ إلى الْمَسْجِدِ فإذا الناس أَوْزَاعٌ مُتَفَرِّقُونَ يُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ لِنَفْسِهِ وَيُصَلِّي الرَّجُلُ فَيُصَلِّي بِصَلَاتِهِ الرَّهْطُ فقال عُمَرُ إني أَرَى لو جَمَعْتُ هَؤُلَاءِ على قَارِئٍ وَاحِدٍ لَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ ثُمَّ عَزَمَ فَجَمَعَهُمْ على أُبَيِّ بن كَعْبٍ ثُمَّ خَرَجْتُ معه لَيْلَةً أُخْرَى وَالنَّاسُ يُصَلُّونَ بِصَلَاةِ قَارِئِهِمْ قال عُمَرُ نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ هذه وَالَّتِي يَنَامُونَ عنها أَفْضَلُ من التي يَقُومُونَ يُرِيدُ آخِرَ اللَّيْلِ وكان الناس يَقُومُونَ أَوَّلَهُ.

 

 

Once Umar came to mosque in Ramadan, and saw people offering prayers separately, so he said that I think to combine them on same Qari, it will be better. And then he made them stand behind Abi ibn Ka’ab. and went out. Next night he saw that people were offering prayer with Qari, so Umar said: It is a good Bidaat, and it is better than people waking up in last part of night for worship, and they offer it in first part of night

البخاري الجعفي، محمد بن إسماعيل أبو عبدالله (متوفاي256هـ)، صحيح البخاري، ج 2، ص 707، ح1906، كِتَاب صَلَاةِ التَّرَاوِيحِ، بَاب فَضْلِ من قام رَمَضَانَ، تحقيق د. مصطفى ديب البغا، ناشر: دار ابن كثير، اليمامة – بيروت، الطبعة: الثالثة، 1407 – 1987.

The list of his Bidaats is quite long, and if someone desires for that, he should consult book “Al Nas wa Al Ijtihaad” by Sharf ud Deen

CONCLUSION

So, we have seen that Umar was not kufv of Umm Kulthum at all. How is it possible that Imam Ali asws would ignore these points, and Marry his daughter to someone who is not compatible Even if still it is presumed that this marriage took place, it does not prove that He enjoyed good relations with Umar. It is like Hazrat Luut who offered those involved in sin to marry his daughters. This offer did not prove that He enjoyed good relations.

.


MARRIAGE WAS DONE USING FORCE & THREATENING

.

Hadiths 1,2,3#

 

 

What needs to be kept in mind is: What is the purpose of speaking about this marriage? If it is to prove good relations between Imam Ali asws and Umar, then when we look at narrations, we find that it proves otherwise. These mention that the marriage was done due to force and threatening.

Kulaini writes in Kafi

1. مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) قَالَ لَمَّا خَطَبَ إِلَيْهِ قَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إنها صَبِيَّةٌ قَالَ فَلَقِيَ الْعَبَّاسَ فَقَالَ لَهُ مَا لِي أَ بِي بَأْسٌ قَالَ وَمَا ذَاكَ قَالَ خَطَبْتُ إِلَى ابْنِ أَخِيكَ فَرَدَّنِي أَمَا وَاللَّهِ لَأُعَوِّرَنَّ زَمْزَمَ وَلَا أَدَعُ لَكُمْ مَكْرُمَةً إِلَّا هَدَمْتُهَا وَلَأُقِيمَنَّ عَلَيْهِ شَاهِدَيْنِ بِأَنَّهُ سَرَقَ وَلَأَقْطَعَنَّ يَمِينَهُ فَأَتَاهُ الْعَبَّاسُ فَأَخْبَرَهُ وَسَأَلَهُ أَنْ يَجْعَلَ الْأَمْرَ إِلَيْهِ فَجَعَلَهُ إِلَيْهِ.

 

 

Hasham bin Salim narrates from Imam Sadiq asws that When Umar proposed for Umm Kulthum, Imam Ali asws said: She is Sabiyya {child}. He asws further said that Umar met Abbas and asked him: What is bad in me? Abbas replied” What happened? Umar said that I proposed to your Nephew but he rejected me. By God! I will close down Zamzam and wont leave any glory for you people. and finish it. And I will prepare two witnesses who will give testimony that he is thief, and I will cut his hands. Then Abbas came to Imam Ali asws and told him about this. He wished that Imam gives the matter in his hands, and so he gave it to him 

الكليني الرازي، أبي جعفر محمد بن يعقوب بن إسحاق (متوفاي328 هـ)، الأصول من الكافي، ج 5 ص 207، :،1362 هـ.ش.

 

Kulaini also wrote

2.. حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ ابْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ وَمُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْمَرْأَةِ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا أَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِهَا أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً (عليه السلام) لَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِه.

 

Abdullah bin Sanan and Mawia bin Ammar narrated from Imam Abu Abdullah asws regarding a man whose husband died, and asked him would she spend Iddat in her house or where she wished. He said: It is her wish because Imam Ali asws took Umm Kulhum home when Umar was killed

الكليني الرازي، أبي جعفر محمد بن يعقوب بن إسحاق (متوفاي328 هـ)، الأصول من الكافي، ج 6 ص 75،  : ،1362 هـ.ش.

 

Kulaini also wrote

3. عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ وَ حَمَّادٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) فِي تَزْوِيجِ أُمِّ كُلْثُومٍ فَقَالَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ فَرْجٌ غُصِبْنَاه.

 
 
post-83202-0-36088900-1378134272_thumb.jpost-83202-0-16579500-1378134275_thumb.jpost-83202-0-80609400-1378134277_thumb.j
 

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Lol......mmmmmmm......lol

Listen friend your post is long and took a lot of time to read.

Firstly get your story straight, did umm kultuum bunt ali marry umar?? Yes or no??

You bought forward "evidence" that says she did then it says she didn't then it says if she did then etc etc then you say she did by force then you say if it was by force then etc etc... Lol...

When you get your story straight then and only then come back.

I don't know where to start with this reply!! If I pick 1 point you'll jump to the next if I pick anther one of your points you will jump onto something else..

GET YOUR STORY STRAIGHT THEN COME BACK

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I was not Finished.

 

UMAR MARRYING ATIKA USING FORCE

 

Keep in mind that using force for marrying someone, was not new to Umar. He had done this before in marrying Atika

Ibn Saad narrates

أَنَّ عَاتِكَةَ بِنْتَ زَيْدٍ كَانَتْ تَحْتَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بنِ أَبي بَكْرٍ، فَمَاتَ عَنْهَا وَاشْتَرَطَ عَلَيْهَا أَلاَّ تَزَوَّجَ بَعْدَهُ، فَتَبَتَّلَتْ وَجَعَلَتْ لاَ تَزَوَّجُ، وَجَعَلَ الرجَالُ يَخْطِبُونَهَا وَجَعَلَتْ تَأْبَى، فَقَالَ عُمَرُ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ لِوَلِيهَا: اذْكُرْنِي لَهَا، فَذَكَرَهُ لَهَا فَأَبَتْ عَلى عُمَرَ أَيْضَاً، فَقَالَ عُمَرُ: زَوجْنِيهَا: فَزَوَّجَهُ إِيَّاهَا، فَأَتَاهَا عُمَرُ فَدَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا فَعَارَكَهَا حَتَّى غَلَبَهَا عَلى نَفْسِهَا فَنَكَحَهَا، فَلَمَّا فَرَغَ قَالَ: أُفَ أُفَ أُفَ، أَفَّفَ بها ثُمَّ خَرَجَ مِنْ عِنْدِهَا وَتَرَكَهَا لاَ يَأْتِيهَا، فَأَرْسَلَتْ إِلَيْهِ مَوْلاَةً لَهَا أَنْ تَعَالَ فَإِني سَأَتَهِيَّأُ لَكَ.

 

 

Ali bin Zaid says that Atika was wife of Abdullah bin Abu Bakar, and he had made this condition with her that she wont marry after him. And she was standing by it. People would propose but she would reject. So Umar told her guardian to mention his proposal, but she rejected. He said again, so he married her. When He married her, he came to her, there was dispute between them but Umar proved powerful and had sex, when he had done that, he said UFF,UFF, UFF. He went out and did not come back. So she sent her slave-girl to him telling him to come back as she was prepared. 

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 265، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

 

post-83202-0-48692400-1378144080_thumb.jpost-83202-0-37467400-1378144078_thumb.j

 

Please do not make silly Excuses either read, or don't bring up the Subject at All.

Statement:

MY ANSWERWhen I said the method I didn't mean shura by the way incase you got confused. I acknowledge that this wasn't shura and hazrath umar r.a even admits in a hadith in bukhari that what happened at saqifa was wrong. So when I said the method was wrong I meant what happened at saqifa and not shura.

 

 

Yet Shura is no where mentioned in the Qruan to Appoint an Imam.

Please provide proof of it being done for the past prophets and Imams.

 

 

Statement:

Firstly get your story straight, did umm kultuum bunt ali marry umar?? Yes or no??

 

​Answered Above.

Read.

Again you prove that you are no very fond of Reading.

(salam) 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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You want to debate 13:7 then bring it on but I warn you that you better have a deep understanding of Arabic. The last two words in that verse are kowmin HADI 

Do you know basic Arabic??

Kowmin means people and HADI means guide there is no "there is"in this sentence.

You can read sunni translation here

http://www.khayma.co...hall/index.html

And watch this video:

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=M1pTMRgyGsA

 

 

​You Would be Surprised on How much Arabic I knew. Very Well, We read in the verse 13:7:

 

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ 

 

 

For Sunnis They say people,

For us We say Nation, Let us take a look into the Arabic Language what the word "Qom" means:

 

  1. القَوْمُ - قَوْمُ 

    القَوْمُ : الجماعةُ من النَّاس تجمعهم جامعة يقومون لها . 

    وخصِّصت بجماعة الرجال ، كما ورد ذلك في قول زهير :

    المعجم: المعجم الوسيط
 
So the first definition of Qom is "GROUP OF PEOPLE" So Why do the Sunnah Translate it in the term "people"? only and why not say a "GROUOP o OF PEOPLE" Or to use the Actual Word nation, Since the Word is "IJMAA" So in this case it can be referred to as "NATION", And I advise you to go learn some Arabic before trying to attack someone Who knows Arabic. 
  1. قوم - ج ، أقوام وأقاوم وأقائم وأقاويم: 
  2. 1 - مصدر قام . 2 - جماعة من الناس . 3 - أعداء ، جمع : قيمان . 4 - إقامة بالمكان . 5 - « قوم الرجل » أقرباؤه الذين : يجتمعون معه في جد واحد .
     
  3.  
  4.  
  5. المعجم: الرائد
  6. قوم - تقويما: 

    1 - قوم الشيء : أزال اعوجاجه « قوم الرمح ». 2 - قوم الشيء : عدله . 3 - قوم المتاع : جعل له قيمة معلومة ، سعره . 4 - قوم الأثر الأدبي أو نحوه : حكم في قيمته ، عين قيمته . ى
    المعجم: الرائد
  7. قوم 

    1 - قوم : إقامة بالمكان . 2 - قوم : قصد ، هدف .
    المعجم: الرائد
  8. قوم قَوَّمَ 

    [ ق و م ]. ( فعل : رباعي متعد ). قَوَّمْتُ ، أُقَوِّمُ ، قَوِّمْ ، مصدر تَقْوِيمٌ . 

    1 ." قَوَّمَ البِضَاعَةَ الجَدِيدَةَ " : قَدَّرَ ثَمَنَهَا وَسِعْرَهَا . 

    2 ." قَوَّمَ الأَخْلاَقَ " : هَذَّبَهَا ، أَصْلَحَهَا . " أَصْبَحَ لِزَاماً عَلَيْهِ أَنْ يُقَوِّمَ سُلُوكَهُ " : أَيْ أَنْ يُعَدِّلَهُ ، أَنْ يُصْلِحَهُ . 

    3 ." قَوَّمَ الرُّمْحَ " : أَزَالَ اعْوِجَاجَهُ ، شَذَّبَهُ . " قَوَّمَ مَا اعْوَجَّ ". 

    4 ." قَوَّمَ الخَطَأَ " : صَحَّحَهُ . 

    5 ." قَوَّمَ الأَثَرَ الأَدَبِيَّ " : حَدَّدَ قِيمَتَهُ ، أَصْدَرَ حُكْماً فِيهِ .

    المعجم: الغني
  9. قوم قَوْمٌ 

    جمع : أَقْوَامٌ . [ ق و م ]. ( مصدر قَامَ ). 

    1 ." اِسْتَشَارَ القَوْمَ " : الجَمَاعَةَ مِنَ النَّاسِ . 

    2 ." قَوْمُ الرَّجُلِ " : أَقْرِبَاؤُهُ الَّذِينَ يَجْتَمِعُونَ مَعَهُ فِي جَدٍّ وَاحِدٍ أَوْ سُلاَلَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ .

    المعجم: الغني
  10. قوَّمَ يُقوِّم ، تقويمًا ، فهو مُقوِّم ، والمفعول مُقوَّم: 

    • قوَّم المُعْوجَّ سوَّاه وعَدَّلهُ ، وأزال عِوَجَه " قوَّم الطريقَ المنحني ، - قوَّم الأخطاءَ : صَحَّحها ، - إعادة تقويم سياسة الدفاع ، - إن الغصونَ إذا قوَّمْتَها اعتدلت ... ولا يلينُ إذا قوَّمتَهُ الحطبُ ". 

    • قوَّم السِّلْعَةَ ونحوَها : سعَّرها ، وضع لها ثمنًا " قوَّم سِعْرَ الخُبْز بعشرة قروش ".

    المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر
  11. قَوْم 

    جمع أقْوام ( لغير المصدر ): 

    1 - مصدر قامَ / قامَ إلى / قامَ بـ / قامَ على / قامَ لـ . 

    2 - جماعة من الناس تربطهم وحدة اللغة والثقافة والمصالح المشتركة وخصصت بجماعة الرِّجال ( يذكّر ويؤنّث ) " والقوم أشباه وبين حلومهم ... بَوْن كذاك تفاضل الأشياءِ ، - { كَذَّبَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ قَوْمُ نُوحٍ وَعَادٌ } - { لاَ يَسْخَرْ قَومٌ مِنْ قَوْمٍ } " 

    • أحاسن القَوْم : خيارهم ، - إذا كُنْتَ في قوم فاحلُب في إنائهم : الحثّ على موافقة من تكون في ضيافتهم ، - أكابر القوم : عظماؤهم وشرفاؤهم ، - حَلْقة القوم : دائرتهم ، - شَخْصٌ من علية القوم : من ذوي النفوذ ، - شقَّ عَصَا القوم : تمرَّد عليهم ، - طار القوم شعاعًا : الشعاع المتفرِّق المنتشر ، تفرَّقوا ، - لسان القوم : المتكلِّم عنهم ، لغتهم ، - هم قوم علينا : أعداء مجتمعون علينا . 

    • قَوْم الشَّخص : أقاربه عصبيَّة أو من هم بمنزلة الأقارب له ، أهله وعشيرته

    المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر
  12. حرث قوم 

 

 

Again we see that Allah Is Referring to such as "NATION" but My Question to you, Does it make a difference?

IF Allah has made a guide for ALL PEOPLE? What is the Difference to ALL nations?

PEOPLE, FOLK, NATION These are All Similar terms, Either Way, The prophet (s) said Ali is the guide! 

So my dear brother you Agreement  makes no sense.

 

 

And please stop claiming its Tahreef.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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I was not Finished.

UMAR MARRYING ATIKA USING FORCE

Keep in mind that using force for marrying someone, was not new to Umar. He had done this before in marrying Atika

Ibn Saad narrates

أَنَّ عَاتِكَةَ بِنْتَ زَيْدٍ كَانَتْ تَحْتَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بنِ أَبي بَكْرٍ، فَمَاتَ عَنْهَا وَاشْتَرَطَ عَلَيْهَا أَلاَّ تَزَوَّجَ بَعْدَهُ، فَتَبَتَّلَتْ وَجَعَلَتْ لاَ تَزَوَّجُ، وَجَعَلَ الرجَالُ يَخْطِبُونَهَا وَجَعَلَتْ تَأْبَى، فَقَالَ عُمَرُ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ لِوَلِيهَا: اذْكُرْنِي لَهَا، فَذَكَرَهُ لَهَا فَأَبَتْ عَلى عُمَرَ أَيْضَاً، فَقَالَ عُمَرُ: زَوجْنِيهَا: فَزَوَّجَهُ إِيَّاهَا، فَأَتَاهَا عُمَرُ فَدَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا فَعَارَكَهَا حَتَّى غَلَبَهَا عَلى نَفْسِهَا فَنَكَحَهَا، فَلَمَّا فَرَغَ قَالَ: أُفَ أُفَ أُفَ، أَفَّفَ بها ثُمَّ خَرَجَ مِنْ عِنْدِهَا وَتَرَكَهَا لاَ يَأْتِيهَا، فَأَرْسَلَتْ إِلَيْهِ مَوْلاَةً لَهَا أَنْ تَعَالَ فَإِني سَأَتَهِيَّأُ لَكَ.

Ali bin Zaid says that Atika was wife of Abdullah bin Abu Bakar, and he had made this condition with her that she wont marry after him. And she was standing by it. People would propose but she would reject. So Umar told her guardian to mention his proposal, but she rejected. He said again, so he married her. When He married her, he came to her, there was dispute between them but Umar proved powerful and had sex, when he had done that, he said UFF,UFF, UFF. He went out and did not come back. So she sent her slave-girl to him telling him to come back as she was prepared.

الزهري، محمد بن سعد بن منيع أبو عبدالله البصري (متوفاي230هـ)، الطبقات الكبرى، ج 8، ص 265، ناشر: دار صادر – بيروت.

ateka2.JPG ateka.JPG

Please do not make silly Excuses either read, or don't bring up the Subject at All.

Statement:

MY ANSWERWhen I said the method I didn't mean shura by the way incase you got confused. I acknowledge that this wasn't shura and hazrath umar r.a even admits in a hadith in bukhari that what happened at saqifa was wrong. So when I said the method was wrong I meant what happened at saqifa and not shura.

Yet Shura is no where mentioned in the Qruan to Appoint an Imam.

Please provide proof of it being done for the past prophets and Imams.

Statement:

Firstly get your story straight, did umm kultuum bunt ali marry umar?? Yes or no??

​Answered Above.

Read.

Again you prove that you are no very fond of Reading.

(salam)

So you accept ali a.s married his daughter to umar r.a, but was "forced".

Okay okay fine....

How do you explain this

Surah 2:221

And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember.

Before you come forward with saying umar was still a Muslim then don't bother because there is hadiths in your books saying otherwise.

If you're thinking of using hazrath lut a.s as an example then I suggest to take a closer look at home:

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/9.htm

Go to the notes at the bottom.

... And if you're thinking of using the prophet. (pbuh) as an example then his (pbuh) daughters were married to kafirs BEFORE islam and before the laws of the quran came down.

Anyway I don't know why you would use the prophet (pbuh) as an example because shia don't believe they even existed.

Now go ahead and refute.

YOU SAID

Yet Shura is no where mentioned in the Qruan to Appoint an Imam.

MY ANSWER

The day you bring me a verse regarding imamat using the guidelines given in surah 3:7 then we'll talk.

YOU SAID

Please provide proof of it being done for the past prophets and Imams.

MY ANSWER

Why do you have to use past tense verses to prove your usul ad din?? When all other usul ad dins are described in present tense??

​You Would be Surprised on How much Arabic I knew. Very Well, We read in the verse 13:7:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

For Sunnis They say people,

For us We say Nation, Let us take a look into the Arabic Language what the word "Qom" means:

  • القَوْمُ - قَوْمُ :

    القَوْمُ : الجماعةُ من النَّاس تجمعهم جامعة يقومون لها .

    وخصِّصت بجماعة الرجال ، كما ورد ذلك في قول زهير :

    المعجم: المعجم الوسيط

So the first definition of Qom is "GROUP OF PEOPLE" So Why do the Sunnah Translate it in the term "people"? only and why not say a "GROUOP o OF PEOPLE" Or to use the Actual Word nation, Since the Word is "IJMAA" So in this case it can be referred to as "NATION", And I advise you to go learn some Arabic before trying to attack someone Who knows Arabic.

  • قوم - ج ، أقوام وأقاوم وأقائم وأقاويم:
  • 1 - مصدر قام . 2 - جماعة من الناس . 3 - أعداء ، جمع : قيمان . 4 - إقامة بالمكان . 5 - « قوم الرجل » أقرباؤه الذين : يجتمعون معه في جد واحد .

  • المعجم: الرائد

  • قوم - تقويما:

    1 - قوم الشيء : أزال اعوجاجه « قوم الرمح ». 2 - قوم الشيء : عدله . 3 - قوم المتاع : جعل له قيمة معلومة ، سعره . 4 - قوم الأثر الأدبي أو نحوه : حكم في قيمته ، عين قيمته . ى

    المعجم: الرائد

  • قوم :

    1 - قوم : إقامة بالمكان . 2 - قوم : قصد ، هدف .

    المعجم: الرائد

  • قوم - قَوَّمَ :

    [ ق و م ]. ( فعل : رباعي متعد ). قَوَّمْتُ ، أُقَوِّمُ ، قَوِّمْ ، مصدر تَقْوِيمٌ .

    1 ." قَوَّمَ البِضَاعَةَ الجَدِيدَةَ " : قَدَّرَ ثَمَنَهَا وَسِعْرَهَا .

    2 ." قَوَّمَ الأَخْلاَقَ " : هَذَّبَهَا ، أَصْلَحَهَا . " أَصْبَحَ لِزَاماً عَلَيْهِ أَنْ يُقَوِّمَ سُلُوكَهُ " : أَيْ أَنْ يُعَدِّلَهُ ، أَنْ يُصْلِحَهُ .

    3 ." قَوَّمَ الرُّمْحَ " : أَزَالَ اعْوِجَاجَهُ ، شَذَّبَهُ . " قَوَّمَ مَا اعْوَجَّ ".

    4 ." قَوَّمَ الخَطَأَ " : صَحَّحَهُ .

    5 ." قَوَّمَ الأَثَرَ الأَدَبِيَّ " : حَدَّدَ قِيمَتَهُ ، أَصْدَرَ حُكْماً فِيهِ .

    المعجم: الغني

  • قوم - قَوْمٌ :

    جمع : أَقْوَامٌ . [ ق و م ]. ( مصدر قَامَ ).

    1 ." اِسْتَشَارَ القَوْمَ " : الجَمَاعَةَ مِنَ النَّاسِ .

    2 ." قَوْمُ الرَّجُلِ " : أَقْرِبَاؤُهُ الَّذِينَ يَجْتَمِعُونَ مَعَهُ فِي جَدٍّ وَاحِدٍ أَوْ سُلاَلَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ .

    المعجم: الغني

  • قوَّمَ يُقوِّم ، تقويمًا ، فهو مُقوِّم ، والمفعول مُقوَّم:

    قوَّم المُعْوجَّ سوَّاه وعَدَّلهُ ، وأزال عِوَجَه " قوَّم الطريقَ المنحني ، - قوَّم الأخطاءَ : صَحَّحها ، - إعادة تقويم سياسة الدفاع ، - إن الغصونَ إذا قوَّمْتَها اعتدلت ... ولا يلينُ إذا قوَّمتَهُ الحطبُ ".

    قوَّم السِّلْعَةَ ونحوَها : سعَّرها ، وضع لها ثمنًا " قوَّم سِعْرَ الخُبْز بعشرة قروش ".

    المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر

  • قَوْم :

    جمع أقْوام ( لغير المصدر ):

    1 - مصدر قامَ / قامَ إلى / قامَ بـ / قامَ على / قامَ لـ .

    2 - جماعة من الناس تربطهم وحدة اللغة والثقافة والمصالح المشتركة وخصصت بجماعة الرِّجال ( يذكّر ويؤنّث ) " والقوم أشباه وبين حلومهم ... بَوْن كذاك تفاضل الأشياءِ ، - { كَذَّبَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ قَوْمُ نُوحٍ وَعَادٌ } - { لاَ يَسْخَرْ قَومٌ مِنْ قَوْمٍ } "

    • أحاسن القَوْم : خيارهم ، - إذا كُنْتَ في قوم فاحلُب في إنائهم : الحثّ على موافقة من تكون في ضيافتهم ، - أكابر القوم : عظماؤهم وشرفاؤهم ، - حَلْقة القوم : دائرتهم ، - شَخْصٌ من علية القوم : من ذوي النفوذ ، - شقَّ عَصَا القوم : تمرَّد عليهم ، - طار القوم شعاعًا : الشعاع المتفرِّق المنتشر ، تفرَّقوا ، - لسان القوم : المتكلِّم عنهم ، لغتهم ، - هم قوم علينا : أعداء مجتمعون علينا .

    قَوْم الشَّخص : أقاربه عصبيَّة أو من هم بمنزلة الأقارب له ، أهله وعشيرته

    المعجم: اللغة العربية المعاصر

  • حرث قوم :

Again we see that Allah Is Referring to such as "NATION" but My Question to you, Does it make a difference?

IF Allah has made a guide for ALL PEOPLE? What is the Difference to ALL nations?

PEOPLE, FOLK, NATION These are All Similar terms, Either Way, The prophet (s) said Ali is the guide!

So my dear brother you Agreement makes no sense.

And please stop claiming its Tahreef.

Ummmmmm... Good try.

Now lets start..... AGAIN

KOWMIN HADI

People or nation it doesn't make a difference you know why??

21:107

Sahih International

And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.

So the prophet (pbuh) was SENT to the WORLDS so nations/people shouldn't be too hard for you to accept!!

What was the mercy of the prophet (pbuh)?? GUIDANCE GUIDANCE GUIDANCE. So since the prophet was sent to the worlds that mercy doesn't finish when the prophet (pbuh) passes away does it?? No. It carries on through his (pbuh) teachings. So the prophet is the guide.

I find it rather funny how you can refer to imam mahdi a.s as a guide when you can't see him but refuse the same status for the prophet (pbuh!!

I'm guessing you believe the prophet is hazir O nazir, right??

Kowmin means people/nations personally I don't see the difference

HADI means guide

So the prophet (pbuh) is a mercy to ALL worlds/nations/people.

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Statement:
So you accept ali a.s married his daughter to umar r.a, but was "forced
". 

 

Please Revise What I posted. From the Sunni and Shia narrations Which I posted with Clear Evidence you Will understand that:

(1) The possibility of Her being the Daughter of Imam Ali (s) Is Weak and the Narrations do not claim a such.

(2) Zaynab (as) was Sometimes Was Referred to Um Kalthum.

(i) There is not a single narration Which mentions Zaynab and Um kalthum both.
(3) She Could be the Daughter of Abu bakr.
(4) In Shia & Sunni Narrations she was married by force.

And In the Quran you cannot Marry with force,
Which puts a Question Mark on Umar Who forced Married 2 times.




Statement:

Before you come forward with saying umar was still a Muslim then don't bother because there is hadiths in your books saying otherwise.

 

Your point is?

Statements:
If you're thinking of using hazrath lut a.s as an example then I suggest to take a closer look at home:


Your point is?
It does not change that fact that he Married Women By force.

 

 

  Statement
And if you're thinking of using the prophet. (s) as an example then his (s) daughters were married to kafirs BEFORE islam and before the laws of the quran came down.

 

This is Invaild Reason. The Message of Allah had not been applied then, So your Statement Makes no point in what your trying to pinpoint out.

Statement:

Why do you have to use past tense verses to prove your usul ad din?? When all other usul ad dins are described in present tense??
 

What do you mean My present and past tense? you make no sense in this Radical, The Quran was revealed to Muhammad (s) 1400 years ago ( or more ), And if your talking about the sentence of the verse being in present tense or Past tense it will not make a difference. Excuse me but not All Usol all deen are Clarified as Present tense in the Quran, You have many verses on the same issue and they are on both the range of past and present.

 

Statement:
So the prophet (s) was SENT to the WORLDS so nations/people shouldn't be too hard for you to accept!!
    

 

 

And your point is?


Statement:

What was the mercy of the prophet (s)?? GUIDANCE GUIDANCE GUIDANCE. So since the prophet was sent to the worlds that mercy doesn't finish when the prophet (s) passes away does it?? No. It carries on through his (s) teachings. So the prophet is the guide.

Invaild? What are you pinpoiting out?
No doubt the prophet (s) is a messenger, and he guides people in hims time, but what about after his time?
Allah said For every people/Nation, there is a guide? you make no sense and in the Authentic Hadith, The prophet Said to Ali:
Iam the Warner and you are the guide (ha'ad). Why do ignorant to accept? you bring no point in your statements.

  

Statement:

 find it rather funny how you can refer to imam mahdi a.s as a guide when you can't see him but refuse the same status for the prophet (pbuh!!
I'm guessing you believe the prophet is hazir O nazir, right??



Do you know how to respect someone one in an Argument? you Insult me by saying I refuse the Status of the prophet. I do not and he is the highest of beings Created. I find it Ignorant of people who ignore the position of Ali (as) and Go with Abu Bakr. And The prophet chose Ali as the Khalifa for the last time.


Statements:
Kowmin means people/nations personally I don't see the difference

 

Okay, That's very good to know.

HADI means guide 

 

yes. 

So the prophet (s) is a mercy to ALL worlds/nations/people. 
 

No doubt. But I did not argue on this issue.

 

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

1. SO which umm kulthum did ali take home after umar's death??

http://gift2shias.com/2010/12/18/umars-marriage-to-umm-kulthum/

2. You will understand my point very soon

3. "Your point is?

It does not change that fact that he Married Women By force."

Do you brother islamic history accept the marriage or not??

4. YOU SAID

And if your talking about the sentence of the verse being in present tense or Past tense it will not make a difference. Excuse me but not All Usol all deen are Clarified as Present tense in the Quran, You have many verses on the same issue and they are on both the range of past and present.

MY ANSWER

You what?? You're having a laugh, right?? Prove it.

5. YOU SAID

Allah said For every people/Nation, there is a guide? you make no sense and in the Authentic Hadith, The prophet Said to Ali:

Iam the Warner and you are the guide (ha'ad). Why do ignorant to accept? you bring no point in your statements.

MY ANSWER

You still have to prove it says (there is) because the last time I checked these words were in brackets!! You bought the verse and these words were in brackets

6. YOU SAID

And The prophet chose Ali as the Khalifa for the last time.

MY ANSWER

This is still under discussion

7. Your hadith regarding ali a.s being the guide holds no ground. What was ali a guide in??? Explain

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statement:
1. SO which umm kulthum did ali take home after umar's death??


That's What we do not know since mentioned Earlier that she is not the Daughter of Imam Ali (s),
Please revise the Above post again and page 12. I have made a deep analyzes on this issue,

And the Ahadith in the site you provided I posted in the above post - page 12/13  (on this page ) also,
There are various narrations Which say this that she, but she could be referred to  Zaynab (as), Or 

​the daughter of Abu bakr, and do not forget Ali (s) is known for keeping orphans. Like I said, Either way

she was married by force, and that does not make a difference. Please Revise the above post.
 

 

Statement:
You will understand my point very soon.


Inshalla, Wa 'be Ith'n Allah.

 

 

Statement:
Do you brother islamic history accept the marriage or not??

 

He married her Un-Islamicly (As proven above). yes.

 

Statement:

You what?? You're having a laugh, right?? Prove it. 
 

You make no sense. Please make a proper statement/Reply with logic.

 


statement:
You still have to prove it says (there is) because the last time I checked these words were in brackets!! You bought the verse and these words were in brackets.

Weak Excuses? Please revise Arabic Words and its Definitions, Either way, No difference in the verse.

 



Statement:
This is still under discussion.


This is due to you, not accepting anything Concerning the Right of Imam Ali (as) and your illogical Responses

With no proof. Due to you no proving anything.


Statement:
Your hadith regarding ali a.s being the guide holds no ground. What was ali a guide in??? Explain 



For the Ummah, a Guide to the righteous path. And Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) is the Warner.
You claim it has no ground, because you simply prefer to ignore.



(salam) 
 

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(bismillah)

Dear brother, Thank you for replying. And Taking the time to read my responses, May Allah increase your knowledge and mine of what we can come about/bring about on this debate. May Allah guide us on the straight path and to the readers this post, I wish, that it will become of most benefit whom who ever reads it Inshalla.

1.) Very well pointed out & explained, very good points you have made.

Now if analyze what you have nicely stated from the Hadith Al Kisa: 44 in the Al-Islam site.

فَاجْعَلْ صَلَوَاتِكَ وَبَرَكَاتِكَ وَرَحْمَتِكَ وَغُفْرَانِكَ وَرِضْوَانِكَ عَلَيَّ وَعَلَيْهِمْ وَأَذْهِبْ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَطَهِّرهُمْ تَطْهِيراً

44. O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings, Benevolence, Forgiveness and Your pleasure upon me and upon them. And remove impurity from them and keep them thoroughly pure"

Yes as you can see, what the prophet stated was very clear. The prophet (pbuh) as you claimed yes he has used "us" In the the term when saying "Me & them" in Following Hadith, he has has as you can see, was always referring to his Ahlullbayt (as). Now this is a very good point so lets analyze this part of the hadith (44). Now as you can see the prophet (s) is asking Allah to bestow his blessings, benevolence, forgiveness, pleasure on "me and them." (us), We see here has included himself with them and switch's to just "them." as you stated. But my dear brother, the word "US" is different in the Arabic language as you know its Arabic it would be said as: " علينا" (us) but the prophet (s) instead said: "عليَّ و عليهم" at first and then like you said he switched to them (عليهم). You see, You need to look at the initial beginning of the haith (Duas) as you can see, the prophet (s) started with in his Dua and look at what he says about his beloved Ahlulbayt, truly it tears the Faithfuls heart:

(35-43)

"O Allah, these are the people of my Household (Ahlul-Bayt). They are my confidants and my supporters.

اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّ هَؤُلاءِ أَهْلُ بَيْتِى وَخَآصَّتِى وَحَآمَّتِي،

As you can see my dear friend the prophet (s) starts the Dua by addressing His Ahlulbayt (s), THEREFORE THE DUA THAT THAT PROPHET (s) IS MAKING, IS NOT FOR HIM, but for them, ad you know he is the prophet (s) he at very rare cases prayers for himself, and you can see he is addressing his Ahlulbayt and not him self and when he comes to the line when he says: "

وَأَذْهِبْ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَطَهِّرهُمْ تَطْهِيراً"

, as you see his saying "Remove Impurity" from them, and I'm sure me and you know, that the the Dua of the prophet (s) is always answered and cannot be rejected my dear brother. So in this mean, we know that Allah Has Removed "All" impurity from them, in the Arabic term "Rijs" and the word "Rijs" in verse (33:33) has got the article "al-" at its beginning which makes the word universal. Thus "al-Rijs" means "Every Kind of impurity". Also at the end of the verse, Allah states "and purify you a Perfect purification." The word "perfect" comes from the emphasis of "Tat'hiran". This is the only place in Quran that Allah uses the emphasis of "perfect purification".

as we can see in the Holy verse (33:33)

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with purification.

Now, You have to ask your self, When Allah (S.W.T) himself says he "Intends", does that mean only Intends and does not Do (action)? No, Of course not, Istraghfrallah, When Allah Intends, then it Will happen, because Allah is Absolute and The First and the last, and what he says is Done, and What he Creates is His, What he Intendeds to do He will Do. We Simple Human Beings for example in Ramadan we Intend to Fast for 30 days, correct? But what if we get sick? or we have to travel due to the circumstances that we may face? injury or illness?, we then are forced to break our fast which we intended in the first place, correct?, but when Allah Intends to do something, what can possibly stop him? (istghrallah), He is the Creator him self, and nothing is impossible in his power, and his power extends to the beyond that is Unimaginable. So my dear friend here it becomes clear that Allah Has removed All Kinds of Impurity (sin) from Ahlulbayt (s). But now you ask your self dos that mean that before this Dua (kisa) or verse (purification) the Ahlulbayt (including the prophet (s)) Where able to do sin before the Dua (kisa) or verse (purification)?. No my dear brother, even before the Dua and the verse, they were already pure from All sin. The prophet (s) Received the revelation when he was 40. But in Reality he Already knew he was a prophet (s) he was born a believer and his linage never committed Shirk whatsoever, So this is Vise-verse to Ahlulbayt Including the prophet (s), they already knew and were already purified. Now my dear friend, Allah the creator of humans and the entire universe has blessed man with a mind and the intelligence to distinguish between bad and good. The Almighty Allah has bestowed his blessings upon us and guided us to the right path. Allah send his faultless and saintly people to guide humanity and these messengers of Allah carry through this objective by spreading the teachings of Allah and they spend their lives in the manner that Allah wishes of them. They seek to instill this behavior that Allah desires amongst fellow humans. It is necessary to believe that these messengers of Allah are infallible both before and after they declared their prophethood to the people.

Dear brother, If we believe that a prophet was subject to misdemeanors before declaring his prophethood then people would automatically consider him to be a sinner, the people would reject his teachings they would have misgivings doubts over his prophethood and this would make the entire concept of prophethood fruitless.

If we were to entertain the thought that prophets can commit sin after declaring their Prophethood to the people then this is even more dangerous. How can a Messenger of God tell others to refrain from sinning when he is himself a sinner? If we accept that a prophet can forget and make mistakes then the authenticity of divine law can be called into question as one that can forget things can also forget the message of Allah, worse he could incorrectly convey the message of Allah. This belief is unacceptable, since no one can have faith in an individual that is unsure over something he said / did. It is therefore necessary to believe that Allah has selected pure innocent people as Guides whose sole objective shall be to guide others to the right path.

This chain of prophetic guidance came to an end with Hadhrath Muhammad al Mustafa (s). It is an accepted fact that no man submits himself to an individual that shares the same traits as him. Allah would never give preference to an illiterate person over a literate and sensible individual, as this would contravene justice. That is why Allah bestowed infallibility, literacy, wisdom and knowledge to his prophets. We deem Prophet Muhammad (s) to be the most learned of all individuals, and this is based on two facts:

The first, there exists no one in the universe who possesses the complete knowledge of Qur’an as Muhammad (s) has. When all knowledge is bestowed in Allah’s book then is clear that he who possesses a complete knowledge of that Book is the most learned and second Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:

O Prophet (Muhammad) PBUH&HP we have taught you every thing, which you didn’t know before (Quran Sura Nisa 5, Verses 113)

The fact that Allah conveyed news of the hidden to Rasulullah (s) also gives him a rank of superiority above all other creations. Often people have considered the word ‘Ummi’ to mean illiterate but it means one who lives in Makkah that is why the Prophet (s) was referred to as Ummi by Allah.

I hope that this will clear your doubt my dear friend now lets continue shall we?

As we keep reading hadith kisa as you can see the prophet (s) saying:

"Their flesh is my flesh and their blood is my blood........Whoever hurts them, hurts me too.

Whoever displeases them, displeased me too..........I am at war with those at war with them.

I am at peace with those at peace with them..........I am the enemies of their enemies and

I am the friend of their friends.........................They are from me and I am from them."

My dear respected brother, Look at what the prophet (s) is saying. He is the enemy of their enemies,

he is at War, with those who are at war with them, brother focus now, what are we going to say to Muawayiah who

fought Imam Ali? what are we going to say to Aysha who fought Imam Ali (s) as well? what are we going to say to Yazid Who not

only fought Imam Hussain (s), but killed his Companions, his Baby who was only 6 months years old (abduallah al rathe'e),

What are we going to say to the Sahabah who fought against the Imam Ali on the war of Jamal and Siffen? Can you not see?

Look at the clear proof I gave you (scanned) of the following Hadith:

Narrated By Imam Ali: "The prophet (s) was there under the tree in (ghadeer) Khum. Then he came out

and took Ali's Hand and said: 'Don't you testify that Allah is your Lord? they said: 'yes', Then he said: "don't you testify that Allah and his messenger have more right over you, than your own selves, and that Allah and his messenger are your masters?", They said: 'yes'. Then he said: 'whoever God and myself are his masters, then He (Ali) is his mater. And I left in you that which if you take and Abide by, you would Never go astray, God's book and My Ahlulbayt."

Narrated by Ishaaq, with a SAHIH (perfect) chain of narration

and said by Imam Al Booseeri, 'and the hadith of Ghadeer was directed by Al-Nisai'i.'

(for the scanned proof, please look at the previous post)

My dear brother, Are you telling me that three months before the prophet (saws) died, he mounted Ghadir Khum,

and Lifted Ali (s) and Declared he is the Master after the prophet (s), and with that he said if you hold on to these

two you will never go astray, "The Book Of Allah" and "My Ahlulbayt." , So what are we going to say here now brother?

If The messenger of Allah said: The Book of Allah and Ahlulbayt that means these two are so great that they come with the Quran

and We MUST hold on to them, so that we will never go astray. But now I want you to think, if the people Fought against Ahlulbayt (s),

In the war of Siffin and jamal and others, that means they Disobeyed The prophet (s) And that means they do not follow the Quran and they prophet said "The book of Allah AND by Ahlulbayt.", so y dear brother how can someone attack Ahlulbayt and claim that he follows the prophet (s) and the Quran?. I have given you Sahih Hadiths my dear brother, One of them was in Musanad Ahmad ibn Hanbal as follows:

He Said: Narrated by Zaid ibn Thabit, He said, The prophet (saws) said: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors), The book of Allah Rope between the heavens and the earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar,"

The Chain of Narrators, Hadith 21470, "The Chain is Hassan (good)"

(please check the scanned proof)

_________________________________________

My brother, its seems you yet again May have misunderstood the verses that I pointed out as they were very clear, I shall now state them with clear evidences I hope that we are able to come to a consensus.

Now as I stated Earlier the following verse:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

"And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide." (3:7)

Brother look Carefully When we talk about Imamah, and yes you are right it could mean many things, but This is the Quran that is been revealed to the prophet (s) And Allah Is telling the prophet (s), that "you are the Warner", and for every Ummah (qo'um in Arabic) as mentioned in the Quran, there is a Guide. So the Warner and the Guide both have a DUTY From Allah in the Ummah (people), and now it becomes clear my dear brother, Imamah is to lead & guide. As I have shown you in the Hadiths, but seems you missed them. In your Own Tafsir In Al Tabari and in Ruh Al mani is says that Ali (s) is the guide and the prophet (s) is the warner.

It is logical that a system of guidance had to exist to ensure the correct understanding of Allah's teachings. This system of guidance through an Imam, is an eternal one and will be provided to all people. In this connection as we have read earlier in Surah rad, verse 7, In Addition have a look at the translation by Maudoodi in the Meaning of the Qur’an Volume 5 page 187

You are a warner only, and to every people has its guide”.

The role of a warner is bring potential risks / hazards to the attention of an audience, he is there to highlists risks and can offer a leave appropriate guidance to counter such risks. Every Prophet (s) was tasked with the duty of a Warner:

035.024 [YUSUFALI]:

Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past).

004.165 [YUSUFALI]:

Messengers who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the messengers, should have no plea against Allah: For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Notice by dear brother, how Allah, does not refer to any of them as Guides. A guide takes on the next role, he is there to take on the teachings of the warner and will correctly interpret the guidance, and will practically assists the audience with regards to how to stay aloof from hazards / dangers, and ensure that the guidance left by the warner is adhered to. Now coing to this verse, if the system of divine guidance terminated with the death of Prophet Muhammad (s), then why would Allah not refer to Muhammad (s) as a Witness and a Guide? Allah identified two separate roles in this verse the role of Warner for Rasulullah (s) and a Guide for every people. We see a seperation of roles here, Rasulullah (s) is there to warn the people, whilst a Guide is there to aid the people. When Rasulullah (s) was a warner and for every people there will be a Guide then who is that Guide? We know that Prophethood ended, yet in this verse Allah h still mentions that guidance for the people will continue, it will not just vanish with the death of the Prophet (s). This ayat is a mere reiteration of a key theme of the Holy Qur’an: the constant, living presence of Divine guides who are not chosen by the Muslims of the time, but are appointed by God Himself. Of interest is the fact that Suyuti in his commentary of this verse narrates as follows:

Ibn Jareer narrates from Iqramah, “When this verse descended, Rasul Allah places his hand on his chest and said, I am the Warner, and then placed his hand on the shoulder of Ali and said, Ya Ali! You are the guide, and after me those seeking guidance will attain it through you.”

Ibn Murdayyah narrates from Abi Barzah ®, says, I have heard Rasul (saww) saying, that when this verse was descended, (I am a warner) while first placing his hand on his chest, and then on Ali’s chest (for every people there is a guide).

Ibn Abbas narrates, Rasul (saww) said, I am the warner and Ali is the guide. Abdulah bin Ahmad in Zawaid un-Musnad, Ibn Abi Hathim in Tabrani fil-Ausat and Hakim in his Sahih, Ibn Marduyyah and Ibn Asakir narrates from Ali (as) saying: “Rasul (saww) read the verse then I said Rasul is the warner and I am the guide.”

-Tafsir Al Tabari and Ruhalmani

and Here is proof from Tafsir al Tabari and Ruhalmani.

Tafsir RuhAlmani:

quran proof 1.JPG Quran.proof.2.jpg

Tafsir Al Tabari:

quran proof 3.JPG Quran proof 4.JPG

Its very Clear my Dear bother, This verse is proof of Imamat of Imam Ali (as), In addition with the Authentic Ahadih I provided with Scanned proof. Please try to comprehend with Logic, Did the prophet (s) say this to Abu Bakr? Uthman? Umar ibn Al Khatab? Did he raise their hands and say Who ever I am his Master, He is his master? What about The Day of Mubahla? Did the prophet (s), Take Abu Bakr with him? Uthman? umar ibn Al kattab?, No my dear Brother, These people took the right of Imam Ali (s) during the Pen and paper day (Saqifa).

Do you know the day of Mubahala? I'm sure you do, When the Christians and their Popes challenged the prophet (s) in a Mubahala Here I would like to bring another evidence from Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Tirmidhi that why the wives of the Prophet are not included in Ahlul-Bayt, which is also, by the way, another reason for the superiority of Ali (as) for the position of leadership after the Prophet (s).the incident is related to the event of "Mubahala" (which means imprecation, or invoking the curse of Allah upon the liar), which took place in the 9th-10th year of Hijrah. In that year a delegation consisting of 14 Christian priests came from Najran to meet the Prophet (s). When they met the Prophet they asked him what is his opinion about Jesus (as). The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "You may take rest today and you will receive the reply afterwards." The next day, 3 verses of Quran (3:59-61) about Jesus were revealed. When Christians did not accept the words of Allah, The Prophet recited the last revealed verse:

But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and our selves and your selves; then let us be earnest in prayer and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars. (Quran 3:61).

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَل لَّعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

In this way, the Prophet (s) challenged the Christians. The next day the Christian priests came out on one side of the field. Also on the other side, the Prophet came out of his house carrying al-Husain in his arm with al-Hasan walking along with him while he was holding his hand. Behind him was Fatimah al-Zahra, and behind her was Ali, peace be upon them all. When the Christians saw the five pure souls, and how determined the Prophet is in his idea that he put the closest people to him at risk, the Christians were terrified and abstained from the proposed malediction (Mubahala) and submitted to a treaty with the Prophet (s).

al-Suyuti (I hope you know him) who was a great Sunni scholar and he wrote:

In the above verse (3:61), according to what Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (the great companion of the Prophet) said, the word "sons" refers to al-Hasan and al-Husain, the word "women" refers to Fatimah, and the word "our selves" refer to the Prophet and Ali. Thus Ali is referred as "the self" of the Prophet (Nafs of the Prophet).

In his Book Dur Almanthur V3, page 608-609:

jaluiden cover 11.JPG jaludien proof 1.JPG jaudien proof 2.JPG

As you can see both Buhkari and Muslim Have Confirmed it, In addition in Sunan Timirdhi and Nas'ai. My dear brother as you can see It follows that just as it is unlawful to seek to be superior to the Prophet, similarly it is unlawful to supersede Ali (who is the "self" of the Prophet according to the words of Allah). Any one who presumed to supersede Ali, was, in essence, presumed to supersede the Prophet! This is another Quranic proof for the right of Imam Ali as the immediate successor of the Prophet (s).

Muslim and al-Tirmidhi both confirm the above incident, and recorded the following tradition in their authentic collections of traditions:

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:

...And when the verse 3:61 was revealed, the Prophet called Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain. Then the Prophet said: "O Lord! These are my family members (Ahli)."

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:

references from your own sources ( If you are still not Satisfied I will Upload the Scanned version also )

  • Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1871, the end of tradition #32.
  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p654
  • al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p150, who said this tradition is authentic based on the criteria set by two Shaikhs, al-Bukhari and Muslim.
  • Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p25

Now my dear brother, Where is Abu bakr? Where Ummar Ibn Al khatab? Where uthman? Are they greater then Ahlulbayt? as you can see its very clear on who we should follow my dear brother. And The viewers of this Post,

Well also say the same. Insahlla.

Dear brother, Now concerning the Imamate in he Quran, you can not clearly see, its meant for the appointed Successor Imam Ali (s),

and that throughout the the whole span of time of this world, All the prophets and Imams where not elected, but they were chosen by Allah and only by Allah, for only Allah has the right to Put Divine Authority on earth. Can you please give me one verse where it says Imamah (guidance, Leader) can be chosen by the people? you will no doubt fine nothing my dear brother. Imamah has clearly been mentioned in the Quran and the following ahadith I posted, supports it.

Now concerning the Verse of Ulu'Almar. in the Quran:

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you (min kum).”(Qur’an 4:59).

My dear brother, As you can see the verse clearly states that we must obey the following:

1) Allah Who Infallible (beyond) (istagfrallah he is the creator)

2) The prophet (s) Who is indeed infallible

3) U'lu al Amr (Authority from among you).......Fallible?

brother how is this possible, Do you think that anyone can be Ul'u Almar? Just because he follows the Ahdadith and Quran?

No my dear brother, that is impossible, there are many reasons for this. Allah Cannot say to you "randomly Follow someone" as long has he follows the Quran and the Hadith, and there are man reasons for this also. As you can see he has told us to obey the prophet who is indeed infallible and then Ul'uAlmar who you say "fallible" so in short you mean Allah is saying: "Obey me (infallible), and the prophet (infallible) and Ulualamr (fallible). how can Allah tell you to "Obey" the one who does mistakes? He made read the Quran and ahadith, but he is still capable of committing sin, what if he changes? will than you change Allah tell you to obey?, therefore my friend this is Invalid point. Brother, Allah never say "If" in this verse it is clearly being said as a "Command", from Allah. as you can see in its full verse form:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Now my dear brother you can see at the near end of the holy verse it says "If you Disagree over anything, Refer it to Allah and tge messenger correct? and then he says "If you believe in "Allah" and "the last day" which if you don't it makes you a disbeliever. Now How can we refer to the messenger and Allah? No doubt Allah through the Quran. How can we refer to the messenger if he has passed away the answer is clear my brother, the prophet (s) left two Khalifa's and I gave you the Authentic Hadith, so you cannot Question unless you reject the 2 sahihs and 4 sahihs and 3 primary sources. So who did The prophet (s) leave behind? its very clear as I have shown you proof (scanned also) and that its Authentic, here is one of the following:

In Musanad Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,

By Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal,

Verified and Investigated (commentated)

by Hamza Ahmad Al-Zain, Volume 16, page 28

He Said: Narrated by Zaid ibn Thabit, He said, The prophet (saws) said: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors), The book of Allah Rope between the heavens and the earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar,"

The Chain of Narrators, Hadith 21470, "The Chain is Hassan (good)"

See my brother, How clear it is before your eyes? He has left Ahlulbayt in charge with no doubt. And I explained to you that they are Infallible, and this proves that the verse of U'li Al mar are Infallible. And Dear heavens no, a Scholar for example as you said such as Sayed Ali Khamenei, he cannot be Ul'iAlmar my dear brother, First because he is not a member of Ahlulbayt, and the second, because he is no infallible and third there are any like him, and yet Allah says "Obey" as he is giving a direct commandment, therefore it cannot refer to as many people as you claimed. Yes like the rest of the Scholars he can give Fatwa? but was is Fatwa? It is not a "New law" nor it is a "New Commandment", it is simple a restriction on a certain issue that is Newly to the Society and that "Restriction"

is based on The "Islamic Laws of the Quran", therefore it is not over what you stated. In addition If you say that the Scholars are U'lu Al mar, then who should I obey? Allah has told me to Obey? but who? how do I know who is U'lu al Amr? they have not been identified, but only told of. You see my brother, it is clear that they are non other than the Ahlulbayt (s) as the prophet has left them as Khalifa's (guides) after him. Also according to the Ahlul-Sunnah, You have to Obey Ali (s) and the prophet has said so and in Tafseer Al Kabeer its Stated clear that Ul'i Almar is Ali (s), the Ahulbayt (s) in the following verses:

We should also take into account Surah Al Ahzab, verse 36:

“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path”

This verse is applicable all times, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì states that a resolution exists to resolve all matters, and the Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì exists to resolve all issues, this is the final authority and no one is permitted to go outside of a decision made by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Prophet (s).

“But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.” The words used here ‘Thanaza” -dispute will have significance later Surah Nisa verse 65

These verses evidence that fact that a solution for all matters can be located within the Qur’an and Sunnah. In this connection let us ponder over the comments of Imam Fakhradeen Razi who said as follows in his discussion of this verse that forms part of his critique against our beliefs in Ulil Amr:

The type of obedience that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has ordered is unconditional obedience, it must relate to that individual who is ma’sum, if he was non ma’sum and could mistakes, then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì would be telling us to follow such a person and adhere to him Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì told us to follow the Ul il Amr unconditionally, he MUST be Ma’sum, a fact that is testified to by this verse”.

We read in Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 306:

Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, “Allah never sends a prophet or gives the Caliphate to a Caliph but that he (the prophet or the Caliph) has two groups of advisors: A group advising him to do good and exhorts him to do it, and the other group advising him to do evil and exhorts him to do it. But the protected person (against such evil advisors) is the one protected by Allah.’ ”

The word used in the above Hadith for “the protected person” is “Masoom”.The tradition clearly shows that these people are the prophets and their successors (Caliphs). The tradition also illuminates the fact that Allah bestows the position of Caliphate to the Caliph which implies that the infallible Caliph is the one who is assigned by Allah, not by people which corroborates Shia Aqeedah.

Now that we know that Masum leaders exist in the Ummah, we can relate their leadership to this Hadith in Sahih al Muslim, Kitab al Imara Book 020, Number 4518:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Whoso obeys me obeys God, and whoso disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys the commander (appointed by me) obeys me, and whoso disobeys the commander disobeys me. The same tradition transmitted by different persons omits the portion: And whose disobeys the commander disobeys me.

The Prophet (s) did not place any condition in this Hadith when it came to obeying the Leader. The words of the Prophet (s) make reference to absolute obedience, but why not? Why have the Sunni Ulema placed the condition that the leader must rule in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah? Why did Abu Bakr state that his leadership was restricted to this nature? The position of the Sunni clergy is at variance to the Hadith of the Prophet (s) who deemed obedience to the leader to be unconditional and was on par with obeying Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Prophet (s). The Prophet (s) would never instruct us to unconditionally obey a Leader who himself fell in and out of religious guidance, so who is the Ameer (Commander) whose obedience is unconditional and is on par with obeying Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Prophet (s)? Alhamdolillah the answer was provided by the Prophet (s) himself who said:

“Whoever obeys ‘Ali, obeys me, whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, whoever disobeys ‘Ali disobeys me, whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah”

  • Kanz ul Ummal, Page 614, Hadith numbers 32974 & 32977
  • Mustadrak al Hakim, Vol. 3, Page 128
  • Riyadh ul Nadira, Vol. 3, Page 110

Now concerning Imam Mahdi (A.F) yes you question is very true, how can an Imam which we cannot see guide us Physically? but can exist at the same time. This is a very Good Question. Dear brother, Before I answer this, you should know that when you are believing In Imam Mahdi (A.F) than your believe that is is Infallible. Why? its very Clear. If such a person can only be chosen, By Allah, than how can he be Fallible? when he is chosen by God him self, also All sects of Islam agree (according to Authentic Ahadith) The Prophet Jesus Will pray behind him. So now my dear brother how can a prophet who is Infallible pray behind a Fallible? Therefore this cannot be, He must be Infallible as he is only chosen my Allah and the prophet Jesus (s) prayer behind him. Now your saying how can he guide us When he is Hidden. Now I don't know whether you believe he is Born or Unborn, so I will go over the issue.

My dear brother the Imam Mahdi (s) is from Ahlulbayt (s) and your Ahadith and ours proves so here are some my dear friend:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left before Doomsday (Day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person out of my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will then fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny before then."

References from Ahlul-Sunnah:

1. Sahih Tirmidhi, V2, P86, V9, PP 74-75

2. Sanan Abi Dawud, V2, P7

3. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V1, P376 & V3, P63

4. Mustadrak al-Sahihain, by al-Hakim, V4, P557

5. Al-Majma', by Tabarani, P217

6. Tahdhib al-Thabit, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V9, P144

7. Sawaiq al-Muhraqa, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, P167

8. Fathul Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V7, P305

9. al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, P617

10. al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, V2, pp165-166

11. Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, V5, P348

12. Fathul Mughith, by al-Sakhawi, V3, P41

13. al-Hafidh Abul-Hasan Muhammad Ibn al-Husayn al-Sijistani al-Aburi

14. al-Shafi'i (d. 363/974). (who said the above hadith is related by

numerous authorities and were spread far and wide by many narrators).

and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

Brother look how clear it is, "From My Ahlulbayt." this shows truth as you can see it. That the Imam Mahdi (A.F) is from Ahlubayt and he surely like I stated before from Ahlulbayt (s). Now his I will introduce to you the Biography of Imam Mahdi (A.F), His first heavenly Concealment was on 8th of Rabi-ul-Awwal, 260 A.H This is one he had 4 messengers where people keep in contact through them and send him Questions and Letters to the Imam (A.F) after 3 of his messengers passed away he told his last messenger to tell the people the final Heavenly Concealment will begin right after his last messengers death which was on 10th of Shawaal, 328 A.H. now I don't want to go deep on this issue but if you ask for proofs (scanned) for this issue I will be glad to give you. So my dear friend his Father is Imam Hassan Al Askari (s), who is the 11th Imam.

There existed a good deal of harmony and uniformity between the aspects pertaining to the births of Prophet Muhammad, the last Apostle of Allah and Imam Mehdi, the last Apostolical Imam. Just as the coming of the Holy Prophet was prophesised well in advance by the preceeding Prophets similarly the impending news of the gracious birth of Imam al-Mehdi was foretold by the Holy Prophet.

Innumerable traditions in this context, quoted right from The Holy Prophet from the glowing contents of many books of Masanid, Sehan, and Akhbar and of Shia Scholars existed. Many Sunni scholars have accumulated these traditions in complete volumes also.

He was born on the 15th Shaban 255 A.H. in the city of Samarra. The momenton us and singluar aspects of his birth greatly resembled those under which the Prophet Musa was born. The birth of Hazart Musa had signalled the downfall and extinction of the empire of Pharoah, who had ordered the slaying of all the newly born children of Bani-Israel. The Abbaside kings were similarly apprehnesive of the continuous traditions of the Holy Prophet about the birth of Imam Mehdi, who was to bring about a curse to their (Abbaside) very empire. They were, therfore, laying in ambush to discover the birth of the Imam and to put an end to his life. But the event of the Imam's birth was enveloped and shielded by the same Divine protection and miraculous phenomena which had makred the historical birth of Prophet Musa. His birth remained strictly confidential and his nursery shrouded in secrecy except to a few devotees.

The Imam's birth had coincided with the reign of al-Mutamad, the well-known Abbaside king. He, being aware of the prophecy of the twelfth Imam's birth occuring in his reign, was extremely worried and anxious to trace him out.

But on the death of Imam Hasan Askari, when he was informed about the Imam's funeral prayer having been conducted by his four year old son, his perplexity knew no bounds.

It struck his mind that this very boy must be the Imam, but he managed to hide his inner concern at the news of the existence of the young Imam. In order to get confirmation that the young Imam did in fact exist, he ordered the arrest of the Imam's mother, Janab-e-Nargis Khatoon.

(On this issue I can also give you proof, please just ask)

Now I have given only one Authentic Haidth that he is from Ahlulbayt (s) so here are more and if you are not satisfied I will provide you with the copied (Scanned) from the same books:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4085

As we see my dear brother Imam Mahdi is from the Ahlul Bayt of Prophet Muhammad, so he can not be Jesus (the Messiah; al-Maseeh). Mahdi and Messiah are two different personalities but they come at the same time, Mahdi as Imam and Jesus as his follower. The following tradition clearly mentions that Imam Mahdi is one of the children of the daughter of Prophet Muhammad (s):

The Messenger of Allah said: "Al-Mahdi is one of the children of

Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4086

In addtition:

The Prophet (S) said: "We the children of Abd Al-Mutalib are the Masters of the inhabitants of Heaven: Myself, Hamza (ra), Ali (S), Jafar ®, Hasan (S), Hussain (S), and Al-Mahdi (S)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4087

The Prophet (S) said: "The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; in that time, my Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything, and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (S) will say:

Here! Take!"

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #5083

Remark: Now my brother according sources, the Government of Peace and equality that Imam Mahdi will establish will last hundreds of years with no rival, and then the day of Judgment will be set. What is mentioned in the above tradition as 7 or 9 years is related to the length of time that Imam Mahdi will fight to conquer the world when he starts his mission.

The Prophet (S) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah has chosen for them the life of the

Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it, until a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reachs that (time) aught to come to them even if crowling on the ice/snow."

Sunni ref: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4082, also in the History Tabari \

(If you request proof in Paper Scanned tell me)

The Messenger of Allah said: "The world will not perish until a man among the Arabs appears whose name matches my name."

Sunni reference: Sahih Tirmidhi, V9, P74

Also:

The Messenger of Allah said: "Mahdi from my family will bring about a revolution and will fill the world with justice and equity before which it was filled up with injustuce and inequity."

references From Ahlulsunnah:

1. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V1, P84

2. Jami'us Sagheer, by al-Suyuti, PP 2,160

3. al-Urful Vardi, by al-Suyuti, P2

4. Kanzul Ummal, V7 P186

5. Aqd al-Durar Fi Akhbaar al-Mahdi al-Muntazir, V12, Chapter 1,

6. al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji Shafi'i, Chapter 12

7. al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh Maliki, Chapter 12

8. Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi hanafi, P380

9. Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, P266

Also Ahmad Ibn Hanbal narrated that:

The Prophet (S) said: "Allah will bring out from concealment Mahdi from my Family and Progeny before the Day of Judgement, even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice, and equity and eradicate tyranny and opression."

reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

Ibn Majah in his Sunan quotes Mohammad Ibn Hanafiyyah and Imam Ali saying that the Holy Prophet (S) said:

"Mahdi is from our Ahlul-Bayt, no doubt Allah will enforce his Amr (appearance) within a night (i.e., his coming is very unpredicted)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, P269

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My Dear Brother Imamah As been mentioned for All nations, including the poof I provided you with, You Must understand that the the Quran is a Revelation of Allah and not the sayings of the prophet (s), so No need to say "Show Me a verse where the prophet says he Appointed An Imam for the Ummah", the Words of the Quran are Allah's words, and Allah clearly mentions Imamah from Chapter to Chapter.

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Now considering that you might Question me that every body is mortal. So how can he live so long?

Yes My dear brother, in fact Imam Mahdi will die too. But the difference is the length of life in this world. In fact Quran and the prophetic traditions tell us that some people have had/are having long life in this world. So it is possible to see this phenomena again. Are you aware that according to the Quran (see 29:14), Prophet Noah has just been prophet for 950 years? In fact, he was alive even more than that because we should add his age before prophethood to the above number. Who knows how much it was. Do you agree that Prophet Jesus (S) is still alive? He is in fact 1,994 years old now. Of course, he is not living on Earth right now; he is living in the Heavens. But according to Muslim's belief, he will come back to Earth, and will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi (S). Do you agree that al-Khidr (S) is still alive? Quran mentions his story with Moses (S). He existed before the birth of the Prophet Moses (S), so al-Khidr (S) is now more than 3000 years old. He lives right here on this Earth, but we can not recognize him (fairly similar to the case of Imam Mahdi). He serves Allah as one of His agents.

No doubt Allah has the ability to give a very long life, but He also has assigned a death time for every body (including the above mentioned individuals) which can be so soon or so late.

Moreover, scientifically speaking, there are NO objections whatsoever to the extended life span assertion. A group of scientists conducted a series of experiments at the Rockefeller Institute in New York in 1912 on certain "parts" of plants, animals, and humans. These scientists included Dr. Alex Carl, Dr. Jack Lope, and Dr. Warren Lewis and his wife, among others ( just as A few example). Among the experiments conducted was one that directly treated the nerves, muscles, hearts, skin, and kidneys of human beings. These organs were not in a human body, they were independent organs that were perhaps donated for the experiment. It was concluded by the scientists that these "parts or organs" CAN continue to live almost indefinitely as long as they are nourished properly, and as long as they are shielded from external negative interactions like microbes and other obstacles that might inhibit the growth of these organs; furthermore, the assertion was made that the cells would continue to grow normally under the above conditions, and that the growth is directly related to the nourishment provided. Again, aging had no effect on these organs, and they grew every year without any signs of deterioration or aging. The scientists concluded that these organs will continue to grow as long as the patience of the scientists themselves is not exhausted, causing them to abandon the nourishment process.

Who is his father?

Shia's along with some Sunni scholars believe that his father was Imam Hasan al-Askari (d. 260/874). Below I have included the name of 31 Sunni scholars who confirm this fact. The overwhelming majority of prophetic traditions about Imam Mahdi (some of which I mentioned in the previous part) state that the name of Imam Mahdi is the same as the name of Prophet (i.e., Muhammad). However there exists a single Sunni report that has an additional phrase concerning that his father's name is also similar to that of Prophet's father (i.e., Abdullah). This extra phrase does NOT exist in all other reports by Shia and Sunni who narrated the Hadith. Moreover, the extra phrase in some Shi'i traditions is in the form of (that his nickname is the same as Prophets nickname, i.e., Abul Qasim) which is correct.

The single report which has the additional phrase (that his father's name is the same as that of Prophet's father) has been probably fabricated by Abdullah Ibn al-Hasan (Muthanna; the second) Ibn (Imam) al-Hasan (AS). Abdullah (d. 145/762) had a son named Muhammad who called him "Nafs al-Zakiyyah" and the al-Mahdi. (See Ibn Taqtuqa, al-Fikr fil-adab al- Sultaniyyah, PP 165-166). Abdullah used all his power and wealth to support the revolt of his son. Abdullah concealed his son several times in Umayad period when there was still no danger for him. When he was asked why he did this, he said: "What an idea, their time has not come yet." (Muruj al- Dhahab, by al-Masudi, V6, PP 107-108). The first time Muhammad wrote a letter the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mansur, he wrote: "From Muhammad Ibn Abdillah, the Mahdi, ..." (Tabari, V3, P29, Ibn Kathir V10, P85, Ibn Khaldun, V4, P4).

Muhammad Ibn Abdillah started his claims at the end of the rule of Umayad caliphs. Muhammad became powerful and tried to gain the support of the last Umayad Caliph who was Marwan Ibn Muhammad (132/750), but the Caliph did not pay attention to him. Abul Abbas al-Falasti said to Marwan: "Muhammad Ibn Abdillah is striving to gain the power for he is claiming to be al-Mahdi". Marwan replied: "What does he have to do with me? (the Mahdi) is not him, nor any of his father's descendants. He will be the son of a slave woman."

When Marwan said that Mahdi (AS) is not one of his father's descendants, he meant the descendants of Imam Hasan (AS), for Mahdi (AS) is the descendant of Imam Husain (AS) and is son of a slave woman (umm walad). Even Marwan was aware of these traditions because of which he did not pay attention to Muhammad Ibn Abdillah. This shows that the true versions of traditions from Prophet were wide-spread.

There is also a very small possibility that the fabrication of that extra phrase was done the Abbasid Caliph, Abdullah al-Mansur, who called his son the Mahdi. Muslim Ibn Qutaybah said: "Mansur called me and said: Muhammad Ibn Abdillah rebelled and he called himself the Mahdi. By Allah he is not. I will tell you something else which I have told no one before, and will tell no one after you. By Allah my son is not the Mahdi either,... but I did so to make a good future for him."

From all above it can be seen that the fabrication of the single report which includes that extra phrase, could be reconciled on Muhammad Ibn Abdillah and/or the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mahdi. This is not the place to examine the Hadith critically, but merely to point out the historical background of it.

LOOK AT WHAT YOU WROTE AT THE START OF THE ABOVE REPLY, and now you're saying something else on a different thread regarding who the verse was sent for.

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LOOK AT WHAT YOU WROTE AT THE START OF THE ABOVE REPLY, and now you're saying something else on a different thread regarding who the verse was sent for.

Where? I don't Understand? When I said Ahlulbayt, I always Assumed you know the prophet is a part of it. And every time I said Ahlulbayt (a.s) I acknowledged the prophet peace be upon him to be a part of Ahlulbayt (a.s) can you please quote where I said the prophet peace be upon him is not part of Ahlulbayt? 

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Where? I don't Understand? When I said Ahlulbayt, I always Assumed you know the prophet is a part of it. And every time I said Ahlulbayt (a.s) I acknowledged the prophet peace be upon him to be a part of Ahlulbayt (a.s) can you please quote where I said the prophet peace be upon him is not part of Ahlulbayt?

Bro you said that the prophet did not do the dua for himself but did it for the other four personalities a.s

And now you're switching your stance and saying the prophet (pbuh) was included in that dua when clearly he wasn't

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Bro you said that the prophet did not do the dua for himself but did it for the other four personalities a.s

And now you're switching your stance and saying the prophet (pbuh) was included in that dua when clearly he wasn't

 

 

I see you have taken My Words out of Context. I said The Dua the prophet Was making was for Them his Family. But I did not claim that the prophet peace be upon him is not Of Ahlulbayt. I am not the one who is Switching Brother, look at the very first (your stance) on this Dialogue. You saying the wives are not of Ahlulbayt and later on you claim that they are. And Many more stances you seem to Play away with.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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