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peace seeker

Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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There are two proofs from the Quran that the wives are not included. The first is the switch in gender being addressed. As you know, in the Arabic language when gender being addressed is changed, this means that the ayat is addressing a different group. The ayat 33:33 begins addressing a group of only women, وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ

This continues until the phrase إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ

Now the ayat is addressing a different group, a mixed group of men and women. If the ayat is referring to the same group, or a group that includes the same, one wonders why the gender of the group addressed would switch , IN THE MIDDLE OF THE AYAT, and would thereby cause confusion to everyone reading the Quran ? This isn't the case.

This is not befitting Allah(s.w.a) to do something like this. It is clear that, starting from إِنَّمَا, the ayat is addressing a different group of people that does not include the wives.

The Second Proof

If the wives were infallible, as you say, then what about this ayat. 66:4

إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ

Would that you two turn unto God in repentance, for the hearts of both of you have swerved(from what is right) And if you uphold each other against him (who is God's message-bearer, know that) God Himself is his Protector, and (that,) therefore, Gabriel, and all the righteous among the believers and all the (other) angels will come to his aid."

66:5

عَسَى رَبُّهُ إِن طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَن يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِّنكُنَّ مُسْلِمَاتٍ مُّؤْمِنَاتٍ قَانِتَاتٍ تَائِبَاتٍ عَابِدَاتٍ سَائِحَاتٍ ثَيِّبَاتٍ وَأَبْكَارًا

[O wives of the Prophet!] Were he to divorce [any of] you, God might well give him in your stead spouses better than you - women who surrender themselves unto God, who truly believe, devoutly obey His will, turn [unto Him] in repentance [whenever they have sinned] worship [Him alone] and go on and on [seeking His goodly acceptance] [9] - be they women previously married or virgins.

And who are these ayats reffering to ? The wives of the Prophet, namely Aisha and Hafsa

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 434:

"Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle used to drink honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and would stay there with her. So Hafsa and I agreed secretly that, if he come to either of us, she would say to him. "It seems you have eaten Maghafir (a kind of bad-smelling resin), for I smell in you the smell of Maghafir," (We did so) and he replied. "No, but I was drinking honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and I shall never take it again. I have taken an oath as to that, and you should not tell anybody about it".

Surah Tehreem verses 1, 4 and 10-11 were revealed for this incident:

Now to plot against Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) behind his back is a major sin, and then to have an ayat in the Quran revealed against you is even greater than that.BTW, this was the only ayat in the Quran that was revealed regarding these two wives, and it is condemning them. Our Sunni brothers like to pass over this fact and elevate these two above the rest but regardless, how is it possible that (some ) of the wives of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) are condemned in the Quran, and then they have a verse like 33:33 revealed concerning them. Not possible.

Also, there is nowhere in the Quran that wives of the Prophets are given any sort of immunity from sin, and in fact there are other verses condemning wives of the prophets. You are probably familiar with the ayats condemning the wives of other prophets as well as acting as a warning to the above 2. 65:10-11

Assalamu alaykum my dear brother

Yes you are totally correct Allah is not bound by time but we are.

What i mean to say is that when Allah speaks about anything he wants to do, has done or is doing he speaks in past, future or present tense to make us humans understand what he wants us to believe and what he doesn't.

If as you say Allah does not need to use these three tenses (past, present and future) and can use these three tenses in any manner because "he is not bound by time" to speak to us humans then the quran would be one jumbled up book and be the laughing stock of the world.

Allah sent down the quran for humans to understand, the ones that were present and the ones that were to come. So it only makes sense to use the three tenses in the right order otherwise the quran would make no sense.

Let me give you an example;

Imagine there was a verse in the quran where Allah said he "intends on making hell". Now we all know that hell is already made and as Muslims we must believe in it.

Imagine a non Muslim said hold up isn't hell already made in islamic belief?? Are you telling me your answer would be;

Allah is not bound by time so he can use any tense he wants where he wants to and how he wants to.

You see my dear brother by using your logic we would be the laughing stock of the world.

Also my dear brother I'm very happy you bought up the argument in "switching of gender" because you can now kindly explain to me surah 11:73. You can read this article for sunni point of view and what shia scholar has written in his tafseer

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/articles/tahreef/verse-11-73.html

You need to understand that sunni do not believe anybody is made infalliable in surah 33:33

Also you point out surah 66:5 well let me fill you in here on something brother:

The wives of the prophet (pbuh) were not infallible so yes they made mistakes, but had they continued in their sin which they were condemned then surely the prophet would have divorced them like it says in the verse and re married. Also the very fact that the prophet (pbuh) decided to breathe his last in aisha house then this further proves he loved his wife.

YOU ALSO SAID:

Also, there is nowhere in the Quran that wives of the Prophets are given any sort of immunity from sin, and in fact there are other verses condemning wives of the prophets. You are probably familiar with the ayats condemning the wives of other prophets as well as acting as a warning to the above 2. 65:10-11

Edited by Abu Hadi, Yesterday, 08:42 PM.

MY ANSWER

Well I'm sorry brother but you are massively mistaken if you believe " nowhere in the quran are wives of the prophet (pbuh) given "any sort of immunity from sin" because all you have to is read these verses

Surah 24:11 - 24:26

)

There is some options here. If they are infallible, then it contradicts some of the wife's actions and Quranic verses, thus it is impossible that the prophet wife's are infallible.

Second. If they are fallible, then this verse means that whatever sins they do, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì will purify them. Which is contradiction with other Prophets/Messengerswife's rights. Also it is contradiction with the verse Brother just mentioned, about the divorcing. Why they have the limits to get divorced when they will be constantly purified?

Third. If the wifes are included in such a verse, then it is impossible that Prophet Wife can start a Fitna War. I don't know how it is possible that when Allah says "Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin]", how can she have such a heart to do such a crime after the constant purification?

Fallible or Infallible, Wifes can't include to that verse. Because it will contradict their actions toward that verse.

It's quite simple:

Nobody is made infalliable in that verse.

Statement:

Also how does the hadith prove that the death was because of attack in the house?????

Shia say muhassan died in the womb of his blessed mother whereas we say he was born.

The Dropping of the Infant Mohsin the Son of Imam Ali (as)

the folk stories in this position very confused, know that all of their stories and words.

We have provided for their stories, it was Ali (Peace Be Upon Him) of male three children: Hassan, Hussein, and Mohsen or Mohsen or Mohsen, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) has been called these these names in analogy of the names of children Harun: شَبَر شُبير ومشبّر، (Shiber, Shabeer, and Mushabar) and this exists in: Musanad Ahmaed Ibn Hanbal (1) and in Mustadark al Sahihain, and the Hakem has made it correct (sahah'o)

____________

(1) Musanad Ahmed 1/118.

(2) Mustadarak Al Saheehian 3/165

صحّحه(1) ، وموجود في مصادر أُخرى.

فيبقى السؤال: هل كان لعلي ولد بهذا الاسم أو لا ؟ قالوا: كان له ولد بهذا الاسم... فأين صار ؟ وما صار حاله ؟ يقولون بوجوده ثمّ يختلفون، أتريدون أن يصرّحوا تصريحاً واضحاً لا لبس فيه ولا غبار عليه ؟! إنّه في القضايا الجزئيّة البسيطة يتلاعبون بالاخبار والاحاديث، كما رأينا في هذه المباحث، وسنرى في المباحث الاتية، وفي مثل هذه القضيّة تتوقّعون أن يصرّحوا ؟ نعم، عثرنا على أفراد معدودين منهم قالوا بالحقيقة وواجهوا ما واجهوا، وتحمّلوا ما تحمّلوا.

Has corrected (1), and exists in other Sources.

What remains is the question: Does the am born with this name or not? They said: it was born with this name ... Where is it? And what is it? They say his presence and then disagree, do you want to say a statement is clear and unambiguous and dust it ?! It is in simple partial issues manipulate news Hadiths, as we have seen in this investigation, and we will see in the following investigation, and in such case you expect to say? Yes, we found the individuals counted them, they said the truth and confronted what they faced, and endured and did not endure.

أحدهم: ابن أبي دارم المتوفى سنة 352 هـ.

قال الذهبي بترجمته: الامام الحافظ الفاضل أبو بكر أحمد بن محمّد السري بن يحيى بن السري بن أبي دارم التميمي الكوفي الشيعي [ أصبح شيعياً !! ] محدِّث الكوفة، حدّث عنه الحاكم، وأبو بكر ابن مردويه، ويحيى بن إبراهيم المزكِّي، وأبو الحسن ابن الحمّامي، والقاضي أبو بكر الجيلي، وآخرون. كان موصوفاً بالحفظ والمعرفة، إلاّ أنّه يترفّض [ لماذا يترفّض ؟ ] قد ألّف في الحطّ على بعض الصحابة»(2) .

____________

(1) المستدرك على الصحيحين. ذيله.

(2) سير أعلام النبلاء 15 / 576.

One of them: Ibn Abi Darmstadt, Past Away years 352 (Hijra)

Imam Al Thahabi said translated: Imam al-Hafidh al-Fadil, Abu Bakr Ahmed bin Mohammed bin Yahya Bin Alsery and bin Abi Darmstadt Shiite Al-Tamimi Alkoffy ] became Shiites !! ] Narrations of Kufa, narration from al hakem , and Abu Bakr Ibn Mardiwya مردويه, Yahya Bin Ibrahim Al Musaki, and Abu al-Hassan Ibn al-Hamami, ,al qathi Abu Bakr al je'lei, and others. And was Characterized with memorization and knowledge, but he refused] Why Does he Refuse? ] He made in "Al Het" on some companions" (2) .

_______________________

(1) Al Mustadarak Ala al sahehain. Its tail.

(2) Sirat al al'alam al Numbala 15/ 576

لا يقول أكثر من هذا: ألّف في الحطّ على بعض الصحابة، فهو إذنْ يترفّض.

ولو راجعتم كتابه الاخر ميزان الاعتدال فهناك يذكر هذا الشخص ويترجم له، وينقل عن الحافظ محمّد بن أحمد بن حمّاد الكوفي الحافظ أبي بشر الدولابي(1) فيقول: قال محمّد بن أحمد بن حمّاد الكوفي الحافظ ـ بعد أن أرّخ موته ـ كان مستقيم الامر عامّة دهره، ثمّ في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب، حضرته ورجل يقرأ عليه: إنّ عمر رفس فاطمة حتّى أسقطت بمحسن(2) .

كان مستقيم الامر عامّة دهره، لكنّه في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب، فهو ـ إذن ـ خارج عن الاستقامة !!

أتذكّر أنّ أحد الصحابة وهو عمران بن حصين ـ هذاالرجل كان من كبار الصحابة، يثنون عليه غاية الثناء، ويكتبون بترجمته إنّ الملائكة كانت تحدّثه، لعظمة قدره وجلالة شأنه(3) ـ هذا الشخص عندما دنا أجله، أرسل إلى أحد أصحابه، وحدّثه عن رسول الله بمتعة الحج ـ التي حرّمها عمر بن الخطّاب وأنكر عليه

____________

(1) سير أعلام النبلاء 14/309.

(2) ميزان الاعتدال 1/139.

(3) الاصابة في معرفة الصحابة 3 / 26.

________________________________________________

Proof the the Mohsin (as), Was dropped and was not born: Sunnah Reference:

((كان مستقيم الأمر عامة دهره, ثم في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب, قال _ الراوي _: حضرته ورجل يقرأ عليه: إنّ عمر رفس فاطمة حتى أسقطت بمحسّن)

"Umar Kicked Fatima (s), Until the infant dropped."

1- ميزان الاعتدال1: 139؛ ولاحظ سير أعلام النبلاء له أيضاً 15: 578؛ وعنه ابن حجر في كتابه لسان الميزان1: 268.

and many more that his Death at birth:

سليمان القندوزي الحنفي (ت 1293 هـ) قال في ينابيع المودة(1): وولدت فاطمة حسناً وحسيناً ومحسناً... ومات محسن صغيراً.

26 _ الاسحاقي في تاريخه أخبار الدول(2) قال: فاما محسن فمات صغيراً في حياة النبي(صلى الله عليه وآله).

27 _ زينب بنت يوسف فواز في الدر المنثور في طبقات ربات الخدور(3)، قالت: وأما أولادها _ تعني فاطمة _ فالحسن والحسين والمحسن, وهذا مات صغيراً.

28 _ الشبلنجي في نور الأبصار(4) قال: وأما أولادها فالحسن والحسين والمحسن وهذا مات صغيراً، وقال أيضاً(5): أما الذكور فالحسن والحسين ومحسن، وفي كلام غيره _ يعني كتاب بغية الطالب _: مات صغيراً.

29 _ عبيد الله آمرتسري في أرجح المطالب(6) نقله عن البدخشي، وقد مرّ ذكره وقال: مات صغيراً, وتبع هؤلاء من الكتّاب المحدثين مثل الكاتب الشهير عباس محمود العقّاد في كتابه فاطمة الزهراء ضمن شخصيات إسلامية(7), وطاهر الحبوش في كتابه أصحاب صاحب البراق(8).

30 _ الحسين الحسيني السمرقندي (ت نحو 1043 هـ) قال في كتابه تحفة

Second of All you mentioned the following:

علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال : لمَّا ولد الحسن جـاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت : سمّيته حرباً ، قال : بل هـو حسن ، فلما ولد الحسين قال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت سميته حرباً ، قال : بل هو حسين . فلما ولد الثالث جاء النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت حرباً ، قال : بل هو محسَّن ثم قال : إني سمّيتهم بأسماء ولد هارون شبّر وشُبَيْر ومشبّ

This hadith is false, a lie, and more than a lie, Imam Ali (as) would lever name his sons "harban" (war), How can you believe this? That the Imam Ali (as) would name his sons "War"? does this make sense to you, yes it is Sahih but thats for you! Sunnah!, not us, and I have no doubt in the chain of narration that it is filled with lairs who follow abu bakr, second of all, In time of the prophet (pbuh) people name the Infant before he is born, and this has been mentioned in many hadith, and thrid of all thr Translation in nor accurate, why? because the word "Wul'd" which means "Born" In English has many meanings in Arabic, and it was used has he is not born as in he cameout of his mother, no, but he is born in the means he is in the womb. And for the last time Sunni books have no Worth on our scales. We only present them to you for proofs, other than that, nothing.

More proof:

http://www.aqaed.com/book/550/almohsen_04.html

And no, Why would I need to reply to you, when you did not reply to my previous Questions on Imamah and the Authentic ahadith on the Leadership of Ali (as).

Why don't you go back to the website you COPY AND PASTED from and ask them why al khoei and fadlullah said what they said.

The garbage " hadith" you wiote are jumbled up and make no sense maybe you should yourself read them before COPY AND PASTE THEM.

YOU SAID

Proof the the Mohsin , Was dropped and was not born: Sunnah Reference:

((كان مستقيم الأمر عامة دهره, ثم في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب, قال _ الراوي _: حضرته ورجل يقرأ عليه: إنّ عمر رفس فاطمة حتى أسقطت بمحسّن)

"Umar Kicked Fatima (s), Until the infant dropped."

Proof the the Mohsin , Was dropped and was not born: Sunnah Reference:

((كان مستقيم الأمر عامة دهره, ثم في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب, قال _ الراوي _: حضرته ورجل يقرأ عليه: إنّ عمر رفس فاطمة حتى أسقطت بمحسّن)

"Umar Kicked Fatima (s), Until the infant dropped."

MY ANSWER

Dropped from where??

He was according to shia in his mothers womb so where did he drop??

Firstly this hadith is garbage and secondly even if he "dropped" then he must have been in his mums arms.

Like I said ask al khoei why he said what he said.

Btw while fatimah ( r.a) was getting trampled and her son getting murdered where was the lion of god??? Observing from the sidelines???

Let me tell you something my dearest if shia said to a non Muslim that ali (a.s) is the guardian of the ummah after the prophet (pbuh) do you know what his response would be??

HOW CAN A "MAN" BE GUARDIAN OVER A WHOLE COMMUNITY WHEN HE COULDN'T EVEN GUARD HIS OWN WIFE.

Also if you're going to come back with some ridiculous answer like " he didn't want bloodshed in ummah so stayed quiet" where why couldn't ali (a.s) do the same when he fought in civil wars.

He could have easily said here have the caliphate just lets not fight.

Also you fail to realise this but by trying to make umar (r.a) look bad you're insulting ali (a.s).

Also you say you refuse to answer my previous answers because I never answered your questions well this my dear brother is a very unfair thing to say, because as you and the dear viewers of this forum/thread can see I answered all your questions .

You tried to refute my answer regarding prophets (a.s) can make minor mistakes but I countered you with another verse in the quran and since then you've tried to bury this question, but you have to admit either you were wrong or the quran is wrong.

Edited by Just the truth

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Assalamu alaykum my dear brother

Yes you are totally correct Allah is not bound by time but we are

You make no sense By dropped  I mean in the Arabic Language "Isqat".

And For the last time the site you mentioned earlier about us having Tahreef in Quran is False, The Quran is Mafooz. how dare you accuse us of Tahreef?

I saw the picture and it looks like Urdu, and I assure you the site it self is a lie and has been refuted several times:

http://en.shiapen.com/

 

Your know being more ridiculous by accusing us of tahreef and changing the Subject again, Sorry to say that you don't know much about the Ahlul-sunnah books;

In your two books Bukhair and Muslim mentions Tahreef and yet they are the MOST SAheed books according to you and yet you put them right after the Quran which makes no sense.

 

Muhseen (as) was not born as in "came out" for God sake the Arabic language proves it.

Second of All In the Time of the prophet "Yolad" as mentioned is still in the Womb.

And No the wives do not join the Ahlulbayt as I have proved so in the previous posts. 

Brother I think you really don't know anything about history, My Apologies,

after Attacking the house of Fatima (as) She Infact told Imam Ali (as) to Act,

But he said He could not, because the prophet (pbuh) told him to lift a sword

against them, because Islam Would than no longer Exist. I can even prove it

you just ask and I will post the Ahadith. So Abu bakr forced Imam Ali (as)

Into Bay'a.

And my dear brother, there is no use in arguing with someone who does not acknowledge history from his own books

and refutes his own books. therefore why bother not Steering the Argument  as you just did? 

 

And Considering the Hadiths about Tahreef in Bukhari and Muslim, I can post them of you want.

but whats the use? you already refuted what was given.

sayed Al Khoei as I said did not say The Women is part of the "Ahlulbayt" but the "ahl"

 

I dare you to read our Tafsir books such as Al Tabtaba'i or Al Mizan,

but you will never dare to.

 

Brother....really??? You have no proof.

Wa al salam

 

    

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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The verse says otherwise of what you are stating. And im done already, i already know your answer.

 

he blamed us for tahreef as you can see he mentioned the "site Ahlulbayt. "

No use really for one who has a Bias view and not a logical one.

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You make no sense By dropped I mean in the Arabic Language "Isqat".

And For the last time the site you mentioned earlier about us having Tahreef in Quran is False, The Quran is Mafooz. how dare you accuse us of Tahreef?

I saw the picture and it looks like Urdu, and I assure you the site it self is a lie and has been refuted several times:

http://en.shiapen.com/

Your know being more ridiculous by accusing us of tahreef and changing the Subject again, Sorry to say that you don't know much about the Ahlul-sunnah books;

In your two books Bukhair and Muslim mentions Tahreef and yet they are the MOST SAheed books according to you and yet you put them right after the Quran which makes no sense.

Muhseen (as) was not born as in "came out" for God sake the Arabic language proves it.

Second of All In the Time of the prophet "Yolad" as mentioned is still in the Womb.

And No the wives do not join the Ahlulbayt as I have proved so in the previous posts.

Brother I think you really don't know anything about history, My Apologies,

after Attacking the house of Fatima (as) She Infact told Imam Ali (as) to Act,

But he said He could not, because the prophet (pbuh) told him to lift a sword

against them, because Islam Would than no longer Exist. I can even prove it

you just ask and I will post the Ahadith. So Abu bakr forced Imam Ali (as)

Into Bay'a.

And my dear brother, there is no use in arguing with someone who does not acknowledge history from his own books

and refutes his own books. therefore why bother not Steering the Argument as you just did?

And Considering the Hadiths about Tahreef in Bukhari and Muslim, I can post them of you want.

but whats the use? you already refuted what was given.

sayed Al Khoei as I said did not say The Women is part of the "Ahlulbayt" but the "ahl"

I dare you to read our Tafsir books such as Al Tabtaba'i or Al Mizan,

but you will never dare to.

Brother....really??? You have no proof.

Wa al salam

My dear brother you really need to calm down I didn't accuse you of tehreef but I accused Farman ali.

Now lets first find our answer in the quran a book which unites us both sunni and shia because be pointing out hadith from either books will only take us in a vicious circle of tit for tat.

We will get to hadith I promise but before hadith we MUST try to find the answer in the quran which is the highest if all books.

Also brother the truth is every time I corner you, you get frustrated and start accuse me of this and that.

Now what is your view regarding surah 11:73

The verse says otherwise of what you are stating. And im done already, i already know your answer.

What is my answer?? Please enlighten me Edited by Just the truth

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whats wrong with verse 11;73?

Have you read it with a deep understanding. Did you read the information on that link I gave you regarding how Allah (swt) switches from masculine etc? Please read that info on the website I provided.

Please don't make me spoon feed you.

Try to understand 11:73 and 33:33 as they are both the words of Allah (swt)

Edited by Just the truth

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Have you read it with a deep understanding. Did you read the information on that link I gave you regarding how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì switches from masculine etc? Please read that info on the website I provided.

Please don't make me spoon feed you.

Try to understand 11:73 and 33:33 as they are both the words of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

 

 

the Website is Bias. And Has been refuted by the site I gave you.

Did you see that?

the site claims:

1) we have Tahreef

2) the wives are a part of ahlulbayt (which I already given you proof they are not)

and whats more Ironic it claims We are the ones who hate Ahlulbayt.

brother. WA AL SALAM

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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the Website is Bias. And Has been refuted by the site I gave you.

Did you see that?

the site claims:

1) we have Tahreef

2) the wives are a part of ahlulbayt (which I already given you proof they are not)

and whats more Ironic it claims We are the ones who hate Ahlulbayt.

brother. WA AL SALAM

My brother I see how you belittle the quran by using hadith first.

First quran then hadith. The verse 11:73 proved that the prophets wives are AHLE BAYT

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My brother I see how you belittle the quran by using hadith first.

First quran then hadith. The verse 11:73 proved that the prophets wives are AHLE BAYT

??? Istaghafrallah How do you claim I battle the Quran. Thank you very much.

Considering the verse 11:73 it does not prove anything:

 

Since in the mercy and the bounty of God offered in the above verse to the People of the House of Abraham, it has been a tendency of some Sunni commentators and their anxiety to find some argument for their counting the wives of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the terms Ahlul-Bayt. They argue that since Sarah the wife of Abraham is included in the term Ahlul-Bayt mentioned in the above verse, then all the wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) are included in the verse 33:33 relating to the purity and the excellence of the Ahlul-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad.

However, these commentators intentionally or otherwise ignore the significance of the address by the Angels. If Sarah, the wife of Abraham, is included in the term Ahlul-Bayt used in the above verse, it is not because she was the wife of Abraham, but because she was going to be the MOTHER of two prophets (Isaac and Jacob). She was mentioned by angles in the above verse as a member of Ahlul-Bayt, AFTER she RECEIVED the glad tiding that she is pregnant of Prophet Isaac (as).

 

The matrimonial relation between and a man and a woman is only circumstantial and can be given up at any moment. She could never be a permanent partner to any husband to be included in the heavenly address who are endowed with the unique and heavenly excellence UNLESS she brings a son who becomes a Prophet or an Imam. Thus if we consider Sarah as a member of the House, it would be only because she would be the mother of Isaac, and not being the wife of Abraham. The verses 11:71-73 quoted above show that Sarah was called among Ahlul-Bayt after she got to know that she is having Isaac (as).

 

 

Quran testifies that Sarah, the wife of Prophet Abraham (as), was blessed by angels and was given the glad tiding that she will give birth to two prophets of God:

11:71 And his wife, standing by, laughed when We gave her good tidings (of the birth) of Isaac, and, after Isaac, of Jacob.

 

11:72 She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child when I am an old woman and my husband now is an old man? That would indeed be a strange thing!"

 

11:73 The (angles) said: Do You wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings be upon you, O People of the House! He is indeed worthy of all praise full of all glory!"

as we analyse

You are really a wonderer I tell you.

You insist on adding Asha to the joint of Ahlulbayt (as)

MY QUESTION:

If you claim the wives are of Ahlubayt (as) then tell me when the prophet said: Hold on to the Book of Allah and the Ahlulbayt (as) ..then on the war of Jamal when Aiysha fought Imam Ali (as)

WHO WILL WE HOLD ON TO AYSHA OR ALI? 

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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??? Istaghafrallah How do you claim I battle the Quran. Thank you very much.

Considering the verse 11:73 it does not prove anything:

Since in the mercy and the bounty of God offered in the above verse to the People of the House of Abraham, it has been a tendency of some Sunni commentators and their anxiety to find some argument for their counting the wives of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the terms Ahlul-Bayt. They argue that since Sarah the wife of Abraham is included in the term Ahlul-Bayt mentioned in the above verse, then all the wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) are included in the verse 33:33 relating to the purity and the excellence of the Ahlul-Bayt of Prophet Muhammad.

However, these commentators intentionally or otherwise ignore the significance of the address by the Angels. If Sarah, the wife of Abraham, is included in the term Ahlul-Bayt used in the above verse, it is not because she was the wife of Abraham, but because she was going to be the MOTHER of two prophets (Isaac and Jacob). She was mentioned by angles in the above verse as a member of Ahlul-Bayt, AFTER she RECEIVED the glad tiding that she is pregnant of Prophet Isaac (as).

The matrimonial relation between and a man and a woman is only circumstantial and can be given up at any moment. She could never be a permanent partner to any husband to be included in the heavenly address who are endowed with the unique and heavenly excellence UNLESS she brings a son who becomes a Prophet or an Imam. Thus if we consider Sarah as a member of the House, it would be only because she would be the mother of Isaac, and not being the wife of Abraham. The verses 11:71-73 quoted above show that Sarah was called among Ahlul-Bayt after she got to know that she is having Isaac (as).

Quran testifies that Sarah, the wife of Prophet Abraham (as), was blessed by angels and was given the glad tiding that she will give birth to two prophets of God:11:71 And his wife, standing by, laughed when We gave her good tidings (of the birth) of Isaac, and, after Isaac, of Jacob.

11:72 She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child when I am an old woman and my husband now is an old man? That would indeed be a strange thing!"

11:73 The (angles) said: Do You wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings be upon you, O People of the House! He is indeed worthy of all praise full of all glory!"

as we analyse

You are really a wonderer I tell you.

You insist on adding Asha to the joint of Ahlulbayt (as)

MY QUESTION:

If you claim the wives are of Ahlubayt (as) then tell me when the prophet said: Hold on to the Book of Allah and the Ahlulbayt (as) ..then on the war of Jamal when Aiysha fought Imam Ali (as)

WHO WILL WE HOLD ON TO AYSHA OR ALI?

Bro seriously save your fairy tale theories for someone who will actually believe them.

Wives are only part of AHLE BAYT if they give birth to a prophet or imam??? Back up your theory with evidence.

If you read that verse with your eyes open you will see that Sarah r.a is AHLE BAYT unconditionally NOWHERE in that verse does it say she was AHLE BAYT because she was to give birth to prophets.

Go to any person who speaks Arabic and ask him who his AHLE BAYT are. AHLE BAYT is NOT only limited to islam it was used way before the prophet (pbuh) was even born and Allah just uses the term AHLE BAYT to explain to Arabs in their own language

I REPEAT THE TERM AHLE BAYT WAS USED WAY BEFORE WE MUSLIMS STARTING USING IT.

EVEN ARAB CHRISTIANS USED IT AND STILL USE IT TO THIS DAY TO REFER TO THEIR WIVES AND CHILDREN.

We should stick with ali because he was the caliph and not aisha because no doubt she made a mistake this is why ali a.s forgave her.

I don't know what you're trying to prove with this because ali a.s was not right because he was AHLE BAYT but because he was the rightly guided caliph.

You still haven't refuted this

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

Why has Allah (swt) used present or future tense ie he INTENDS to PURIFY them when imams were born sinless??

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Bro seriously save your fairy tale theories for someone who will actually believe them.

Bro seriously save your fairy tale theories for someone who will actually believe them.

 

 

 

Okay. Thank you.

Wa al salam

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Bro ur impossible to debate with you beat around the bush and don't answer straight.

Good bye

The truth is you're stuck and can't find a way out. You said prophets a.s can't make mistakes and I refuted you and from you no reply, I refuted your hadith manzilah explanation and from you no reply. I refuted the verse Allah "intends" to "purify" you and from you no reply. I told you hadith of twelve caliphs you never replied I refuted you time and time again yet you know you're stuck in a little corner with no way out.

But there is one way out for you..... Don't reply

Good bye

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The truth is you're stuck and can't find a way out. You said prophets a.s can't make mistakes and I refuted you and from you no reply, I refuted your hadith manzilah explanation and from you no reply. I refuted the verse Allah "intends" to "purify" you and from you no reply. I told you hadith of twelve caliphs you never replied I refuted you time and time again yet you know you're stuck in a little corner with no way out.

But there is one way out for you..... Don't reply

Good bye

 

 

Now your Telling me I'm Stuck?

The only reason I stopped Responding, is you use Excuses, to make me look as if I knew or Know nothing.

you did not reply to one singe hadith and asked me whether its sahih or not. It really depends on your understanding.

You basically thing, that by me not replying you've one. And You Said "Sunni" out load a couple of times. I advise you to bring actual

proofs when putting out what you have stated on several posts.

I'm waiting for my Answer  on post 257#.

  

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Now your Telling me I'm Stuck?

The only reason I stopped Responding, is you use Excuses, to make me look as if I knew or Know nothing.

you did not reply to one singe hadith and asked me whether its sahih or not. It really depends on your understanding.

You basically thing, that by me not replying you've one. And You Said "Sunni" out load a couple of times. I advise you to bring actual

proofs when putting out what you have stated on several posts.

I'm waiting for my Answer on post 257#.

I will respond to your post 257 once you admit that prophets (a.s) can make minor mistakes.

I gave you evidence from the quran where dawud a.s and Muhammad (pbuh) made minor mistakes in the verses I gave you from the quran.

Either admit they make mistakes or refute the verses.

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I will respond to your post 257 once you admit that prophets (a.s) can make minor mistakes.

I gave you evidence from the quran where dawud a.s and Muhammad (pbuh) made minor mistakes in the verses I gave you from the quran.

Either admit they make mistakes or refute the verses.

 

 

prophets Cannot make mistakes. They are Infallible and through Quran and Ahadith We can prove so.

It is impossible for Allah to have a prophet who makes mistakes and is able to do things beyond the normal man.

Otherwise what is the difference between a man who makes mistakes and follows a prophet who makes mistakes (Aozobillah).

Where is your logic, you even Question in the Infallibility of prophet Muhammad (pbuh).   

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prophets Cannot make mistakes. They are Infallible and through Quran and Ahadith We can prove so.

It is impossible for Allah to have a prophet who makes mistakes and is able to do things beyond the normal man.

Otherwise what is the difference between a man who makes mistakes and follows a prophet who makes mistakes (Aozobillah).

Where is your logic, you even Question in the Infallibility of prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Firstly let me clarify something for you.

Prophets are infalliable in the message they bring ie deen and revelations. Prophets are infalliable from major sins but they are not infalliable from minor mistakes.

You say to me use my logic but it is you the one that needs to use logic my dear brother. The quran clearly states that prophets (a.s) made minor mistakes;

38:23

Indeed this, my brother, has ninety-nine ewes, and I have one ewe; so he said, 'Entrust her to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

38:24

[David] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and turned in repentance [to Allah ].

38:25

So We forgave him that; and indeed, for him is nearness to Us and a good place of return.

Prophet (pbuh) frowned and turned away surah 80 verse 1-12

YOU SAID

Otherwise what is the difference between a man who makes mistakes and follows a prophet who makes mistakes (Aozobillah).

MY ANSWER

Like I said above the prophets a.s are only infalliable in the deen ie the message they bring ie; quran and are also infalliable from major sins but they are not infalliable from committing minor mistakes.

Please reply

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Firstly let me clarify something for you.

Prophets are infalliable in the message they bring ie deen and revelations. Prophets are infalliable from major sins but they are not infalliable from minor mistakes.

You say to me use my logic but it is you the one that needs to use logic my dear brother. The quran clearly states that prophets (a.s) made minor mistakes;

38:23

Indeed this, my brother, has ninety-nine ewes, and I have one ewe; so he said, 'Entrust her to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

38:24

[David] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and turned in repentance [to Allah ].

38:25

So We forgave him that; and indeed, for him is nearness to Us and a good place of return.

Prophet (pbuh) frowned and turned away surah 80 verse 1-12

YOU SAID

Otherwise what is the difference between a man who makes mistakes and follows a prophet who makes mistakes (Aozobillah).

MY ANSWER

Like I said above the prophets a.s are only infalliable in the deen ie the message they bring ie; quran and are also infalliable from major sins but they are not infalliable from committing minor mistakes.

Please reply

 

I am not here to argue with you. But just want to correct you. 

 

Prophet  (pbuh) frowned and turned away surah 80 verse 1-12

 

Tell me "Prophet" is used in the Ayat?

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I am not here to argue with you. But just want to correct you.

Prophet (pbuh) frowned and turned away surah 80 verse 1-12

Tell me "Prophet" is used in the Ayat?[/quote

I am not here to argue with you either my brother.

Read tafsir from shia scholars also dawud a.s committed a mistake in the verse I provided which supports my argument that prophets a.s committed minor mistakes ]

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I am not here to argue with you. But just want to correct you.

Prophet (pbuh) frowned and turned away surah 80 verse 1-12

Tell me "Prophet" is used in the Ayat?[/quote

I am not here to argue with you either my brother.

Read tafsir from shia scholars also dawud a.s committed a mistake in the verse I provided which supports my argument that prophets a.s committed minor mistakes ]

 

Don't just say "read Shia Tafsir from Shia Scholars" as if you know our Tafsir. 

With each statement put forward proof.

And Don't worry I'm typing an answer for you. 

Wa al saalm 

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Assalamu alaykum my dear brother

Yes you are totally correct Allah is not bound by time but we are.

What i mean to say is that when Allah speaks about anything he wants to do, has done or is doing he speaks in past, future or present tense to make us humans understand what he wants us to believe and what he doesn't.

If as you say Allah does not need to use these three tenses (past, present and future) and can use these three tenses in any manner because "he is not bound by time" to speak to us humans then the quran would be one jumbled up book and be the laughing stock of the world.

Allah sent down the quran for humans to understand, the ones that were present and the ones that were to come. So it only makes sense to use the three tenses in the right order otherwise the quran would make no sense.

Let me give you an example;

Imagine there was a verse in the quran where Allah said he "intends on making hell". Now we all know that hell is already made and as Muslims we must believe in it.

Imagine a non Muslim said hold up isn't hell already made in islamic belief?? Are you telling me your answer would be;

Allah is not bound by time so he can use any tense he wants where he wants to and how he wants to.

You see my dear brother by using your logic we would be the laughing stock of the world.

 

Alekum Salam, 

 

The translation of 'Yureed Allah' is Allah(s.w.a) desires to... or Allah(s.w.a) want to...

Time (past, present, or future) makes no difference (i.e. it is irrelevant) WHEN the subject of the sentence is Allah(s.w.a)

as in this sentence. I never said that time is irrelevant when it comes to all statements that include Allah(s.w.a). 

You are misinterpreting what I said. 

I am saying specifically that if Allah(s.w.a) desires something, it will happen. As soon as this ayat was revealed concerning Ahl Al Bayt, Allah(s.w.a) was making a statement that 'These individuals are purified with a thorough purification'. It is not a future tense.

If 'Yureed' was followed by anything other than Allah(s.w.a), I agree that it is future tense but because it is followed by 'Allah' it is a special case. I was talking about this phrase specifically. I don't know how you managed to extend that to all phrases in the Quran. 

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Have you read it with a deep understanding. Did you read the information on that link I gave you regarding how Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì switches from masculine etc? Please read that info on the website I provided.

Please don't make me spoon feed you.

Try to understand 11:73 and 33:33 as they are both the words of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

Would you mind putting both verses forward, 11:73 and 33:33.

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Alekum Salam,

The translation of 'Yureed Allah' is Allah(s.w.a) desires to... or Allah(s.w.a) want to...

Time (past, present, or future) makes no difference (i.e. it is irrelevant) WHEN the subject of the sentence is Allah(s.w.a)

as in this sentence. I never said that time is irrelevant when it comes to all statements that include Allah(s.w.a).

You are misinterpreting what I said.

I am saying specifically that if Allah(s.w.a) desires something, it will happen. As soon as this ayat was revealed concerning Ahl Al Bayt, Allah(s.w.a) was making a statement that 'These individuals are purified with a thorough purification'. It is not a future tense.

If 'Yureed' was followed by anything other than Allah(s.w.a), I agree that it is future tense but because it is followed by 'Allah' it is a special case. I was talking about this phrase specifically. I don't know how you managed to extend that to all phrases in the Quran.

Allah INTENDS only to REMOVE from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to PURIFY you with [extensive] purification.

you said

As soon as this ayat was revealed concerning Ahl Al Bayt, Allah(s.w.a) was making a statement that 'These individuals are PURIFIED with a thorough purification'.

I'm sorry but you can't change what the verse says.

YOU SAID

The translation of 'Yureed Allah' is Allah(s.w.a) desires to... or Allah(s.w.a) want to...

Time (past, present, or future) makes no difference (i.e. it is irrelevant) WHEN the subject of the sentence is Allah(s.w.a)

as in this sentence. I never said that time is irrelevant when it comes to all statements that include Allah(s.w.a).

Why only this sentence??

MY ANSWER

Surah 4:28

4:28

to top

Sahih International

And Allah wants to lighten for you [your difficulties]; and mankind was created weak.

Allah wants to.... Saying something he wants to do for us not something he has already done for us.

4:27

to top

Sahih International

Allah wants to accept your repentance, but those who follow [their] passions want you to digress [into] a great deviation.

Allah wants to... Something he wants to do not something that is already done.

These verses also use "yureed" so why is surah 33:33 an exception??

Would you mind putting both verses forward, 11:73 and 33:33.

11:73

They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah ? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house. Indeed, He is Praiseworthy and Honorable."

33:33

Sahih International

And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

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Allah INTENDS only to REMOVE from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to PURIFY you with [extensive] purification.

you said

As soon as this ayat was revealed concerning Ahl Al Bayt, Allah(s.w.a) was making a statement that 'These individuals are PURIFIED with a thorough purification'.

I'm sorry but you can't change what the verse says.

YOU SAID

The translation of 'Yureed Allah' is Allah(s.w.a) desires to... or Allah(s.w.a) want to...

Time (past, present, or future) makes no difference (i.e. it is irrelevant) WHEN the subject of the sentence is Allah(s.w.a)

as in this sentence. I never said that time is irrelevant when it comes to all statements that include Allah(s.w.a).

Why only this sentence??

MY ANSWER

Surah 4:28

4:28

to top

Sahih International

And Allah wants to lighten for you [your difficulties]; and mankind was created weak.

Allah wants to.... Saying something he wants to do for us not something he has already done for us.

4:27

to top

Sahih International

Allah wants to accept your repentance, but those who follow [their] passions want you to digress [into] a great deviation.

Allah wants to... Something he wants to do not something that is already done.

These verses also use "yureed" so why is surah 33:33 an exception??

11:73

They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah ? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house. Indeed, He is Praiseworthy and Honorable."

33:33

Sahih International

And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

 

So if you don,t mind, what is exactly the point here??? What are you discussing, in simple and short, rather than me going through the whole thread???

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statement:
. The holy prophet  (pbuh) said whoever leader I am ali is his leader. So after the holy prophet said this who was the leader? Prophet  (pbuh) or ali (a.s)? Remember there is no mention of the words AFTER ME.
 
 
 
As mentioned Earlier :

 


Al - Sunnah : By Imam Abi Bakr Ahmad ibn Abi As'aim (287 AH)
Investigated by Dr Al Jawabra, Professor of Hadeeth at  Imam Muhammad Ibn Su'ood, University
Al- Sumai'y Institution  , Volume 2 page 799
 
The Messenger of Allah    (pbuh) said: "Ali your position to me, is like Harun to Mosa, Expect  
that there will be no prophet after me. and that you are Caliph ​of Every believer After me."
 
In Addition, the Hadith before that on the same page, Hadith 1221:
 
The propher  (pbuh) said: "Ali is from me, and I am from Ali, and he is the WALI of every believer after me."
 
HADITH SAHIH AND THE SANAD IS SANAD MUSLIM.

In the commentary: Underneath it:
 
"The Chain of Narrators is Good, and Narrators are the narrators of the TWO SHEIKHS."

 
 
Statement:
You pointed out this hadith my brother. Well firstly the word used here is maula, maula is a word with many meanings ie; friend, cousin, helper, leader etc etc.
 
False. He mentioned Leader khalifa, and this is not false please Revise Musanad Ibn Hanbal.

 
‘to take over the government….to be in power, hold supreme power….to follow in succession’.

 

 

If Wali is interpreted as Master in the context of this verse, then it would make Allah (s), the Prophet (s) and those that give Zakat whilst bowing down in prayer to be the Master over the believers. If it also proven that the individual that gave Zakat in such a state, then it would be logical to assert that the individual that Allah (swt) describes as the Master over the believers during the lifetime of the Prophet (s) succeeds him as the Master at the helm of the State after him (s).
Naturally Ansar.Org find such an interpretation of Wali in the context of this verse as unacceptable, since doing so, takes their first three khalifas out of the equation, which is why the author stresses the importance of rejecting this notion. It also destroys the orthodox Sunni stance that no nass (text) occurs relating to the Prophet (s) appointing a successor after him (s). Our assertion is that:

 

(a). the verse descended in honour of Imam Ali (s)
( b. Wali here means Master

 

Now the best means of ascertaining the meaning of such a term would be to analyse the Hadeeth literature. After all, if Imam Ali (s) was indeed a Wali (friend) of the believers, then can Hadeeth literature point to the Holy Prophet (s) clarifying this fact and using the term Wali in this context? It is interesting to note that at no point has the author sought to site any Hadeeth literature that would point to Imam Ali (s) being the Wali of the believer from the context of friendship, had he done so, then his work would have been done, and no doubt the financial incentives from King Fahad would have doubled for him. His omission is quite intentional, for Imam Ali (s) has indeed been referred to as the Wali of the believers in Sunni Hadeeth literature but certainly not in the context of friendship. Allamah Dr Muhammad Tahir ul Qadri al-Hanafi in his book dealing with the traditions in honour of Maula Ali (s) ‘Kanzul Muttalib fee Fadail Manaqib Ali ibn Abi Talib’ records this on page 62:

 

“Hadhrath Imran bin Husain narrates the Prophet (s) said ‘verily ‘Ali is from me and I am from him. He is the Wali of every believer after me.

 

[sahih al-Tirmidhi, Vol 5, Page 236, al Sahih by Ibn Habban Volume 1 page 383, Mustadrak al Hakim , Vol. 3, p. 119, Sunan al Nasai Volume 5 page 132, by Ibn

Abi Sheeba Volume 6 page 383 Musnad Abu Yala Volume 1 page 293]”

Imam Nisai in ‘Khasais’, Imam Hakim in his ‘Mustadrak’ and Ibn Hajar Asqlani in ‘Al-Istiab’, Mulla Mutaqi Hindi in ‘Kanz ul Ummal’, Dahabi in ‘Talkhees Mustadrak’ and Al-Baani the Wahabi in ‘Silsilat al-ahadith al-Sahiha’ have decalred the tradition ‘Sahih’.

 

There is no doubt that Imam Ali (as) was always the friend of the believers. If the intention of the Prophet (s) was to clarify that Ali (s) was the friend of the believers what would have been the logic of him using the term ‘He is the Wali of every believer after me‘? It is clear that Rasulullah (s) was now referring to a different relationship that would exist between Ali (as) and the believers after him, one that would be implemented following his (s) death. It is logical that this can only refer to the station of authority, that the Imam (as) would attain as the Khaleefa after the Prophet (s). Now for Ansar.Org this tradition causes them a major headache? How do they react? They are left with two options:

 

(a). Ali (as) was the fourth rightly guided Khaleefa
( b. Ali (s) was the immediate Khaleefa after the Prophet (s)

 

If they embrace the first option that they no doubt will, how can this be held in tandem, with this hadith that cited Ali (s) as being the ‘Wali of every believer after me‘? Should the first three Khaleefa’s not be counted as believers in this tradition? If they are not, then they are not believers (Momineen). If they are counted as believers then what prevented them from adhering to the words of our Prophet (s) and accepting him as the Wali of every believer after the Prophet (s)?you are now left in a difficult position. They either declare that their first three leaders were not believers, or they deem them as rejecters of the dictates of Muhammad al Mustafa (s). It is only their desire to protect the doctrine of man made Imamate that has forced them to stress that Ali (s) was merely the friend of the believers and nothing more.


The rest of your answers are base on Rejecting Ulu Al mar, you only made an assumptions and showed no proof.


(salam)

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