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peace seeker

Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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What is more important the the Burial of the prophet my Dear brother? Is electing the new Khalifa more important? when the prophet (s) already elected Imam Ali (s) as the successor, they went and made their own so called "khalifa" whats more Ironic, not the whole Ummah voted on it, so your definition of "Democracy (consensus)" should rather be called "Dictatorship".

 

Umar receives information that the Ansar have gathered at the Saqifa

 

Numani identifies the fact that Umar had personal receipt about a meeting the Ansar were involved in. This was not general information available to all the Sahaba; this was information given privately to Umar:

 

“It is related by Omar that as they were seated in the Prophet’s house a man cried out all of a sudden from outside: ‘O son of Khattab (Omar” pray step out for a moment’. Omar told him to leave them alone and go away as they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet. The man replied that an incident had occurred i.e., the Ansar were gathering in force in the Thaqifah Bani Sa’idah and, as the situation was grave, it was necessary that he (Omar) should go and look in to the matter lest the Ansar should do something which would lead to a war. On this Omar said to Abu Bakr, ‘Let us go’.

 

 

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The modern Sunni scholar Dr Rahim in his simplified analysis of history writes:

 

“Being informed of the proceedings of the Ansars, Abu Bakr Umar and Abu Ubaidah hastened to the meeting place and were there just in time to interrupt the finalization of the Ansars choice of Sa’d ibn Ubaidah to the successorship of the Prophet. Ali was at that time busy in preparing the coffin of the Prophet, and did not know anything about the meeting of the Ansars to elect a successor”.

 

Scanned proof:

 

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They set out to go to the Saqifa on the way we read that Abu Ubaydah joins them (1). He did not leave with them from the Prophet (saaws)’s residence so we presume that he must have met them at a specific place. On route two companions whom Hadhrath Umar recounts as “pious fellows” (2) seek to discourage them from proceeding further. They reject the plea and make their way to the Saqifa.

(1) The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 188, 

 
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(2) The history of al Tabari, Volume 9 page 192, 

  

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Brother, was there an absolute consensus from amongst the Sahaba that Abu Bakr was most superior?
The Ahlul-Sunnah Claim:
 

(1)Thirty-three thousand Sahabah pledged their Baya’ah to Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه). The Muslim masses recognized the superiority of Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) above all the other Sahabah, and they came to this conclusion after reflecting on the words of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) himself….

There is no doubt that the most superior of the Sahabah was Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه). This was the view of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), the consensus of the Sahabah, and the position of the rightly guided Ahlus Sunnah (People of the Sunnah). Therefore, based on this, it was only fitting that Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) be declared the successor of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم).

 

 

My brother,  Abu Bakr ruled out his being the most superior Sahabi

 

First of All Abu Bakr in his own inaugural speech said:

“Now then: O people, I have been put in charge of you, although I am not the best of you. Help me if I do well; rectify me if I do wrong”. 

Tarikh Tabari, English translation Volume 9 page 201

 

When Abu Bakr is himself pointing to the existence of others in the Ummah that were superior to him, how can there be an absolute ijma in his superiority from amongst the Sahaba?  Whose testimony bears greater weight, that of the Sahaba or Abu Bakr himself?

 

 

 

There existed a body of opinion from amongst the Sahaba that Ali (as) was the most superior

 

We read in Tahdeeb al-Kamal, Volume 20 page 480:

 

روي عن سلمان وأبي ذر والمقداد وخباب وجابر وأبي سعيد الخدري وزيد بن أرقم رضي الله عنهم أن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه أول من أسلم وفضله هؤلاء على غيره

 

 Salman, Abu Zarr, Miqdad, Khubab, Jabir, Abi Saeed Khudri and Zaid bin Arqam (may Allah be pleased with them all) have narrated that Ali is the first Muslim and all these people used to give seperiority to Ali over others.

 

We read in Tarikh Ibn Khaldun, Volume 2 page 17:

 

 أن جماعة من الصحابة كانوا يتشيعون لعلى ويرون استحقاقه على غيره

 

A group amongst the Sahaba were the Shias of Ali and they used to give preference to Ali over others.

 

Dr. Muhammad Hussain Dhahabi the former teachter at he was teacher at Al-Azhar University who subsequently become the minister for ministry of Islamic affairs and endowments stated in his authority work Al-Tafsir wal Mufasaron, Volume 2 page 5:

 

“Nay there were among the Sahaba who loved Ali and believed that Ali is better than the other Sahaba and he is more deserving to be the Caliph such as Ammar bin Yasir, al-Miqdad bin al-Aswad, Abu Dhar, Salman al-Faresi, Jaber bin Abdullah and many others”

 

Scanned proof:

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Abu Zuhra states in Al-Shafiye, page 93:

 

It should be kept in mind that it is not just Shias who believe Ali being greatest of all the Sahaba rather in past era, Sahaba also held this view such as Ammar bin Yasir, Miqdaad bin Aswad, Abu Zarr Ghaffari, Salman Farsi, Jabir bin Abdullah, Ubai bin Kkaab, Huzaifa, Buraida, Abu Ayub, Sahal bin Haneef, Uthman bin Haneef, Abu Hathem, Khuzaima bin Thabit, Abu Tufayl, Aamir bin Wathila, Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib, and their son and others from Bani Hashim; in the begining Zubair also held this view, but changed his opinion later; even in Bani Umayya there were people who held this view like Khalid bin Saeed bin Aas and Umar bin abdul Aziz.

 

By why brother? Why did they chose to follow Imam Ali (as) and not Abu Bakr?, yet they were one of the closest Sahabah to the prophet (pbuh).

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(bismillah)

 

My dear friend, I have just shown you proof that Imam Ali (s) is the Caliph of every believer and He is the Leader and Guide for the Muslim Ummah, and he Is the Master of the Ummat Rosallah (pbuh), its very clear as you can see, you claim that he is Just "A Spiritual leader" If your saying Spiritual then you must mean by Religion, and therefore Abu Bakr is a leader in what? politics? please tell me how Imam Ali (s) guided people in Religion and How Abu Bakr guides people in his so called "politics." My dear brother, Islam is a religion that is a GUIDE for the Human being and it intervenes In every Aspect of Life including politics. Give one narration that is Authentic where the prophet (pbuh) says "O! Bakr! you are the Chaliph after me"? brother as you have just seen, Saqifa did not have the Whol Ummah, nor did all the Sahabah attend it, even the most closest to the prophet (pbuh) stayed with Imam Ali (s), and did not attend Saqifa, therefore Such cannot be classified as a "consensus" or so called "Democracy", there is not such thing as choosing the Imam of the Ummah, this is rather the Dictatorship of Abu bakr and what about Umar Ibn al khatab, can you please tell me whether the Whole Ummah Chose him as Caliph? No, you will find only 6 people made the vote? and is this what you call "Consensus", rather fake Democracy. I am also suprised friend, that you ignore that Breaking and the burning of the house of Fatima al Zahra (s), Why so? is it because You ignore such truth and try to make the position of the killers of the daughter of the prophet (pbuh) justifiable?

             

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THE ISLAM HISTORY

I've got a big project on at work I have read your posts and I will reply to them very soon please keep checking this thread.

I will reply as soon as I possibly can

Inshallah

Salams brother/sister.

 

 

Good luck with your project.

Please go through My proofs Carefuly, It took me alot of time to check each Authentic source.

Please, I'm not trying to make the post so long to annoy you. Its just the topic is very deep, thats why

we must go through certain books. I hope you will be pleased with my answer inshalla.

I admire your patients. May Allah guide you through your hardships Inshalla.

wa Al salam.

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

I have some questions regarding the context of this verse. If it was revealed to the prophet on behalf of Imam Ali's appointment as a leader in Ghadir, then why do the previous and proceeding verses talk about the Jews and Christians? Shouldn't those verses specifically talk about what took place in Ghadir khum instead?

 

 

 

(bismillah)

 

The way that the quran is compiled is not in chronological order regarding in time. Meaning it isnt organized from the first verse revealed and the next and so on.

 

 

(salam)
 

sorry to interfere, but I had to ..

 

the quran is actually compiled in an organized way. Imam Ali and the other companions placed the verse in  order ,one after another.

 

for example look at Surat Al mominoon, it describes the believers in an organized way. Step by step, verse after verse.  The quran starts talking about the believers prayers and then the ill speech, and then the importance of zakah...etc , all in an order of importance. So I'm assuming that the other verses of the quran are also placed the same way. Especially if we look at the story in Surat Yusuf.  

 

 

Sahih International
Certainly will the believers have succeeded:

 


Sahih International
They who are during their prayer humbly submissive

 

and they who turn away from ill speech

 


 
 
Sahih International
And they who are observant of zakah
 
Edited by -Enlightened

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(salam)

 

sorry to interfere, but I had to ..

 

the quran is actually compiled in an organized way. Imam Ali and the other companions placed the verse in  order ,one after another.

 

for example look at Surat Al mominoon, it describes the believers in an organized way. Step by step, verse after verse.  The quran starts talking about the believers prayers and then the ill speech, and then the importance of zakah...etc , all in an order of importance. So I'm assuming that the other verses of the quran are also placed the same way. Especially if we look at the story in Surat Yusuf.  

 

 

Sahih International
Certainly will the believers have succeeded:

 

Sahih International
They who are during their prayer humbly submissive

 

and they who turn away from ill speech

 

 

 
Sahih International
And they who are observant of zakah
Sahih International
And they who guard their private parts

 

 

I never said the quran was in the wrong order. I said it isnt ordered in time frame. Simple proof for this argument. The first verse in the quran has to be when the prophet is commanded to Read, Iqra, but guess where it is, near the end of the quran. Also the quran is not a story book, nor is it referential meaning in some areas, sometimes the verses dont not seem to be in the rightorder, for example, Allah is talking about the people of the cave and all of a sudden the whole context is changed. However, the principle is still the same, behind both of the different context. So yes, the quran is compiled in a special order commanded by Allah. There are specific reasons for it, and there is hiqma (wisdom) indeed. You can get the jest of it by reading Tafsir Al-Mizan by Tabatabai, beautifully explained.

 

I just wanna reiterate: The Quran is PERFECT the way it is. The imams made sure of it. They are the protectors of the quran and deen.

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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I never said the quran was in the wrong order. I said it isnt ordered in time frame. Simple proof for this argument. The first verse in the quran has to be when the prophet is commanded to Read, Iqra, but guess where it is, near the end of the quran. Also the quran is not a story book, nor is it referential meaning in some areas the verses are not in order, for example, Allah is talking about the people of the cave and all of a sudden the whole context is changed.  So yes, the quran is compiled in a special order commanded by Allah. There are specific reasons for it, and there is hiqma indeed. You can get the jest of it by reading Tafsir Al-Mizan by Tabatabai, beautifully explained.

 

I just wanna reiterate: The Quran is PERFECT the way it is. The imams made sure of it. They are the protectors of the quran and deen.

(wasalam)

 

 

true, the surahs are not in order, such as Iqra (which is the begining of a surah near the end of the quran)

 

but the verses inside the surahs are in order , until another topic follows it.   

 

PureTruth's question was about the verses inside the Surah. 

Edited by -Enlightened

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true, the surahs are not in order, such as Iqra (which is the begining of a surah near the end of the quran)

 

but the verses inside the surahs are in order , until another topic follows it.   

 

PureTruth's question was about the verses inside the Surah. 

 

Sorry I wasnt clear. Sometimes the verse dont seem to be in order but it has significance and it is. Which is why I mentioned the tafsir, which beautifully explains this. Pure Truth is questioning Allah's system in the quran. To say just because a verse before or after it is not talking about the same topic, is very wrong judgment. Because first of all they are, and there is wisdom behind it. Second, its about the principle behind each verse, not the event or topic at hand. So for example, when the quran is talking about what the people of the cave went through and in the middle of it starts talking about something else, it is still enjoined in the same concept and you can see that by reading the tafsir for a deeper understanding. There are many examples in the quran which prove it, and I guarantee you not a single person can prove that the quran made a mistake in its order, as in is Allah not smart enough to stay on the purpose of the verses? Of course He is...

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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THE ISLAM HISTORY

Assalamu alaykum my dear brother/sister.

YOU SAID:

As you can see my dear friend the prophet (s) starts the Dua by addressing His Ahlulbayt (s), therefore the Dua that that prophet (s) is making, is not for him, but for them, ad you know he is the prophet (s) he at very rare cases prayers for himself, and you can see he is addressing his Ahlulbayt and not him self and when he comes to the line when he says: " وَأَذْهِبْ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَطَهِّرهُمْ تَطْهِيراً", as you see his saying "Remove Impurity" from them, and I'm sure me and you know, that the the Dua of the prophet (s) is always answered and cannot be rejected my dear brother

MY ANSWER.

My dear brother/sister you say that the prophets (pbuh) dua cannot be rejected which I totally agree with, but the question is why do a dua to Allah to make AHLE BAYT infalliable if they already are??

Now lets take a deeper look into this verse.

Quran surah 33:33

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

44O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings, Benevolence, Forgiveness and Your pleasure upon me and upon them. And remove impurity from them and keep them thoroughly pure.

My dear brother as you can see in the verse the language used by the almighty (swt) goes totally against shia belief.

Let me explain:

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity

First Allah ( swt) says he "intends" to remove from them there impurity. So from the word "intends" we see that here the almighty (swt) is talking about something he wants to do and not something he has already done, otherwise it would have said "intended". When you "intend" on doing something you are talking about present and future tense. So if the imams were born sinless why would Allah (swt)say he intends.

This now brings us to the last part of this verse:

, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

The key word here is "purify", this word is also talking either present or future tense and not past tense.

So the two important words are "intends" and "purify" both these words talk about either present or future tense.

Also if you still believe that this verse is talking about infalliability then the prophets (pbuh) wives are also infallible.

Also in this verse the prophets (pbuh ) wives are also part of the AHLE BAYT.

I am fully aware of the argument shia put forward for verse 33:33 regarding masculine etc etc. I am willing to debate this with you if you want.

Grand ayatollah khoei also admits that a man's wive is also AHLE BAYT, here are scanned proofs:

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/khoi-ahl.html

THE ISLAM HISTORY

YOU SAID

If we were to entertain the thought that prophets can commit sin after declaring their Prophethood to the people then this is even more dangerous.

MY ANSWER

20:121

to top

Sahih International

And Adam and his wife ate of it, and their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred.

20:122

to top

Sahih International

Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him].

Prophets are protected meaning that which is deen ie quran and are also protected from major sins but as you can see the verses above show they can make minor mistakes which have nothing to do with the actual message ie deen.

So when you say that prophets cannot make ANY mistakes the quran says otherwise.

YOU SAID

"Their flesh is my flesh and their blood is my blood........Whoever hurts them, hurts me too.

Whoever displeases them, displeased me too..........I am at war with those at war with them.

I am at peace with those at peace with them..........I am the enemies of their enemies and

I am the friend of their friends.........................They are from me and I am from them."

MY ANSWER

All this boils down to intention, if those who hurt etc did it deliberately just to hurt them then they are wrong but if they did it out of making a bad decision then may Allah forgive them.

Aisha r.a regretted her actions deeply and ali a.s excused her and sent her back to medina.

Allah will judge everybody according to their intentions.

In the sight of Allah intentions hold more weight than actions, because let's say I ran someone over deliberately then my intention was wrong but if I did it accidentally then my intention was not wrong, but the crime is the same, ran someone over. So if you kill someone intentionally then you are wrong but if you do it unintentionally then you are not wrong.

Similarly those who went in with an intention of deliberately causing fitnah are guilty but those who actually believed that those responsible for the murder needed to be bought to justice for 2 reasons.

1. For killing the caliph for no islamically justifiable reason. The blood of a Muslim is to be spilt in only 3 occasions leaving islam and refusing to repent, illegal sexual intercourse and murder.

You may now think to yourself then what about those who were martyred in the battle which aisha r.a fought in, then your answer is simple, ali a.s knew her intention was not deliberate so he excused her.

Like i said above, in islam it's all about intention rather than action.

2. People believed that if killing the caliph for personal grief was made an acceptable act, then this would cause a lot of problems in the future, so the act of killing the caliph without a sharia reason should be absolutely rejected.

YOU SAID

Narrated By Imam Ali: "The prophet (s) was there under the tree in (ghadeer) Khum. Then he came out

and took Ali's Hand and said: 'Don't you testify that Allah is your Lord? they said: 'yes', Then he said: "don't you testify that Allah and his messenger have more right over you, than your own selves, and that Allah and his messenger are your masters?", They said: 'yes'. Then he said: 'whoever God and myself are his masters, then He (Ali) is his mater. And I left in you that which if you take and Abide by, you would Never go astray, God's book and My Ahlulbayt."

Narrated by Ishaaq, with a SAHIH (perfect) chain of narration

and said by Imam Al Booseeri, 'and the hadith of Ghadeer was directed by Al-Nisai'i.'

MY ANSWER

You pointed out this hadith my brother. Well firstly the word used here is maula, maula is a word with many meanings ie; friend, cousin, helper, leader etc etc.

This hadith makes no sense if it is taking about leadership but makes more sense when it is talking about friendship.

Lets go with your interpretation for now.

If the holy and blessed prophet (pbuh) has said whoever leader me and Allah are then ali is his leader. This makes no sense because Allah is not a leader.

..but when we use the word friendship or ally it makes perfect sense. Prophet (pbuh) was the friend of Allah (swt) and in return ali was the wali of Allah (swt) or as us SUNNIS say was a peer.

My brother you talk about ghadir Khumm where apparently the prophet (pbuh) made ali (a.s) the leader of the ummah.

We have major problems with shia interpretation of ghadir Khumm.

1. The holy prophet (pbuh) said whoever leader I am ali is his leader. So after the holy prophet said this who was the leader? Prophet (pbuh) or ali (a.s)? Remember there is no mention of the words AFTER ME.

2. If imamat is usul ad din then it should be in the quran alongside all the other usul ad dins in a clear and precise way, like it says in surah 3 verse 7. Why is it that imamat is the only usul ad din missing this criteria.?

3. Imam ali never fought for his rights regarding imamat but when it came to caliphate then he raised the sword, why?? Which is more important, imamat or caliphate (sunni style)? Why did ali a.s not raise the sword when the right of Allah (swt) was being trampled on but when it came to being selected sunni style caliphate he raised the sword? What is more important a s worth fighting for imamat which is usul ad in and the right of. And. Or caliphate which is a worldly system? You tell me.

YOU SAID

"And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide." (3:7)

My dear brother I think you have accidentally deleted the one before the three, it is surah 13 verse 7 and you have misinterpreted it but I will for now agree with you.

So I'm that blessed verse it says;

for every people is a guide.

Well we have a serious problem because we, me and you and over a billion Muslims do not have an appointed guide. The whole beauty behind having a guide is so he can guide us to the straight path. So if a guide cannot guide us then what's the point of having a guide?? I mean like seriously what's the difference between a guide who is dead and a guide who is alive but unaccessable?

Wouldn't it be fair for me to say on the day of judgement to Allah (swt) that you according to this verse said every people shall have a guide, well where was my guide then??

Allah (swt) will simply answer was the quran not sufficient for you?

YOU SAID

It is logical that a system of guidance had to exist to ensure the correct understanding of Allah's teachings. This system of guidance through an Imam, is an eternal one and will be provided to all people. In this connection as we have read earlier in Surah rad, verse 7, In Addition have a look at the translation by Maudoodi in the Meaning of the Qur’an Volume 5 page 187

MY ANSWER

Well then which "appointed imam" is guiding the ummah today? If your answer is imam mahdi then I have answered you above but I will also add that if imam mahdi a.s is leading the ush which he isn't then the ayatollahs of Iran would not have needed to select a supreme leader by using the method shura.

We SUNNIS believe ali was a spiritual guide and not an infalliable appointed by Allah ( swt) he was a peer and a spiritual guide can carry out his spiritual duties without the need to interfere in politics but if he by shura becomes a leader of politics then this is a bonus.

YOU SAID

Do you know the day of Mubahala

MY ANSWER

Yes I am very familiar with this hadith

My brother and I am also fully aware of the quranic verse

Then whoever argues with you about it after [this] knowledge has come to you - say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then supplicate earnestly [together] and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars [among us]."

In this very verse we see that the holy prophet had the choice from the almighty (swt) to take more women than fatimah, so whether the prophet had taken Fatimah on her own or all his wives he would have been right, because Allah clearly says "our WOMEN and your WOMEN" so there was no restrictions to the number of women but the holy prophet (pbuh) out of his knowledge took only fatimah (r.a).

If by using this hadith you're trying to imply that the prophet (pbuh) was instructed to take only "infalliables" then you are wrong, because here Allah ( swt) has said "WOMEN" and not woman. If you choose to stick to your argument about only "infalliables" were allowed to come then who are these other women who Allah has called "women".

YOU SAID:

In the above verse (3:61), according to what Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (the great companion of the Prophet) said, the word "sons" refers to al-Hasan and al-Husain, the word "women" refers to Fatimah, and the word "our selves" refer to the Prophet and Ali. Thus Ali is referred as "the self" of the Prophet (Nafs of the Prophet).

In his Book Dur Almanthur V3, page 608-609:

MY ANSWER

Brother I do not doubt for a second that the only people the prophet (pbuh) took were the 3 imams and fatimah but, the word "women" cannot only refer to fatimah (r.a) because women is not a singular word. The holy prophet (saw) had the choice to take more "women" but chose not to for whatever reason.

The islamic history

ULIL AMR

YOU SAID

My dear brother, As you can see the verse clearly states that we must obey the following:

1) Allah Who Infallible (beyond) (istagfrallah he is the creator)

2) The prophet (s) Who is indeed infallible

3) U'lu al Amr (Authority from among you).......Fallible?

MY ANSWER

My dear brother the ulil amr does NOT need to be infalliable nor does he need to be appointed by Allah.

Let me explain.

In many verses of the quran we are told "obey Allah (swt) and his messenger" (pbuh). Now if there was a verse where it said "obey Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh) and if you differ refer it back to Allah?? Well why on earth would a "Muslim " differ with the messenger (pbuh). If this verse existed in the quran it would be like Allah saying indirectly that it is possible to differ with the prophet ( pbuh) because he can commit a sin and do wrong so refer it to Allah (swt).

There is no such verse in the quran when it comes to obeying Allah (swt) and his messenger (pbuh) yet when it comes to ulil amr we are told "if you differ. Now my question is why would we differ or better still why would Allah say "if you differ". The prophet is infallible so it is impossible for us to differ with the prophet (pbuh) but with ulil amr it is possible to "differ" because they are fallible.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

YOU ASKED

Now How can we refer to the messenger and Allah? No doubt Allah through the Quran. How can we refer to the messenger if he has passed away

MY ANSWER

My dear brother yes indeed we refer to Allah (swt) through the quran but we refer to the prophet (pbuh) through authentic hadith.

YOU ASKED

Now you also asked "how can we refer to the messenger (pbuh) if he has passed away".

MY ANSWER

Actually brother it is not me but you who should answer this because if you're adamant in your belief that we have to refer to imam and not hadith then please you tell me my brother why don't you refer anything to imam mahdi (a.s)???????

If imams (a.s) are to be referred to then please tell me one thing, why don't you skip hadith and go and ask im mahdi (a.s)???????

YOU SAID

Allah has told me to Obey? but who? how do I know who is U'lu al Amr? they have not been identified, but only told of.

MY ANSWER

My dear brother ulil amr are those who act according to quran and sunnah. If you are still adamant that an infalliable imam is ulil amr then YOU tell me how I should obey him????

If you say follow their hadith well then what's the difference if at the end of the day we were back to square one, follow hadith.

YOU SAID

We should also take into account Surah Al Ahzab, verse 36:

“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path”

MY ANSWER

My brother this verse you pointed out actually goes against your belief of ulil amr being infalliable because;

Believers do NOT have an option to Allah (swt) and orophet (pbuh) decisions So this proves my argument regarding "differing" with ulil amr.

We are told above that we cannot choose or in simple terms "differ" with the decision of Allah (swt) and prophet ( pbuh) but in verse 4:59 we are told "if we differ refer back to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh".

Now why has Allah said if we differ with ulil amr?? Do we get this option with Allah (swt) and the prophet (pbuh)??

We are actually told those who try to choose or those who try to differ are clearly on a wrong path. Whereas with the case of the ulil amr we refer it back to Allah (swt) and messenger (pbuh).

This further proves my argument that neither is ulil amr appointed by Allah nor is he infallible because we have been told clearly in Surah Al Ahzab, verse 36 that we do not have a choice to differ but whereas when it comes to ulil amr Allah (swt) does not say that you are on a wrong path or you are unbelievers or even something as small as you are wrong for not obeying ulil amr, but we are simply told to refer it back to Allah ( swt) and his messenger (pbuh).

YOU SAID

We read in Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 306:

Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, “Allah never sends a prophet or gives the Caliphate to a Caliph but that he (the prophet or the Caliph) has two groups of advisors: A group advising him to do good and exhorts him to do it, and the other group advising him to do evil and exhorts him to do it. But the protected person (against such evil advisors) is the one protected by Allah.’ ”

The word used in the above Hadith for “the protected person” is “Masoom”.The tradition clearly shows that these people are the prophets and their successors (Caliphs). The tradition also illuminates the fact that Allah bestows the position of Caliphate to the Caliph which implies that the infallible Caliph is the one who is assigned by Allah, not by people which corroborates Shia Aqeedah.

MY ANSWER

I am very sorry my brother but there is no such word as "masoom" in this hadith.

YOU SAID

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Holy prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Whoso obeys me obeys God, and whoso disobeys me disobeys God. Whoso obeys the commander (appointed by me) obeys me, and whoso disobeys the commander disobeys me. The same tradition transmitted by different persons omits the portion: And whose disobeys the commander disobeys me.

MY ANSWER

This hadith was revealed when prophet (pbuh) used to appoint commanders to go to battle and has nothing to do with the concept of obeying infallibles after him.

YOU SAID

Now concerning Imam Mahdi (A.F) yes you question is very true, how can an Imam which we cannot see guide us Physically? but can exist at the same time. This is a very Good Question. Dear brother, Before I answer this, you should know that when you are believing In Imam Mahdi (A.F) than your believe that is is Infallible. Why? its very Clear. If such a person can only be chosen, By Allah, than how can he be Fallible? when he is chosen by God him self, also All sects of Islam agree (according to Authentic Ahadith) The Prophet Jesus Will pray behind him. So now my dear brother how can a prophet who is Infallible pray behind a Fallible? Therefore this cannot be, He must be Infallible as he is only chosen my Allah and the prophet Jesus (s) prayer behind him. Now your saying how can he guide us When he is Hidden. Now I don't know whether you believe he is Born or Unborn, so I will go over the issue.

MY ANSWER

my dear Brother the question was, how can an imam lead us if we can't see him?

You never answered this but just spoke about the birth and concealment of imam mahdi (a.s) my dear brother. Also you spoke about imam mahdi (a .s) being from AHLE BAYT etc etc but never actually answered the original question.

how can an imam lead us if we can't see him????????

You also my brother keep talking about ahle bayt, my dear brother you have massively misunderstood the meaning if ahle bayt. I explained in my last post to you the meaning of ahle bayt but I think you missed it. My brother I have told you above that the prophets (pbuh) wives are also ahle bayt if you would like to talk more about this please ask and we will discuss.

My dear brother ahle bayt means more than just your 12 imams. Ok lets stick with your opinion and say that according to quran ahle bayt are only ali (a.s) hasan (a.s) Hussein (a.s) and bibi fatimah (r.a), now you have only proven these blessed 5 are ahle bayt you still need to prove all your other imams are only ahle bayt.

My brother what do you think all the other shia sects say about their imams?? They all claim the same as you yet all shia fail to prove who is and who isn't ahle bayt. You are all in agreement regarding first 4 imams but after that you all split into your different sects each following a different line of imams claiming only your imams are ahle bayt, but all failing to prove that it is your imams who are appointed.

YOU SAID

My Dear Brother Imamah As been mentioned for All nations, including the poof I provided you with, You Must understand that the the Quran is a Revelation of Allah and not the sayings of the prophet (s), so No need to say "Show Me a verse where the prophet says he Appointed An Imam for the Ummah", the Words of the Quran are Allah's words, and Allah clearly mentions Imamah from Chapter to Chapter.

MY ANSWER

Firstly I am sorry if I said "show me verse where the prophet (pbuh) said in quran regarding imamah". That is my mistake wgat I meant was the following:

Imamat is usul ad din

If you look into quran Allah (swt) has spoken about each and usul ad din using precise words and telling US that we must believe in them.

When it comes to imamah instead of showing me a precise verse you show me verses of history where Allah (swt) says he chose imams for past generations or other verses.

My dear brother you must understand that the quran is a book if guidance and not a book of riddles and like Allah (swt) says in surah 3:7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]

So if you read this verse and understand its deep meaning Allah (swt) is saying that the verses which are precise are the foundation.

Now when my brother something is precise it becomes impossible to argue with it. If we look into quran we see very precise verses regarding tawhid nubbuwah angels etc, but when it comes to believing in imamat shia either follow the second part of verse 3:7 "As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific". My brother when something is unspecific you can anybody can twist its meaning but have you ever seen any Muslim trying to twist the meaning of tawhid nubbuwah angels qiyamah etc, the answer is no because there are specific verses regarding these usul ad dins which nobody can deny.

Moving forward my brother you stated a long answer regarding the long life of imam mahdi (a.s) but I'm not bothered if he has been here for 1000, 2000 or even 10000 years what my question is m, that if we need a guide at all times as shia claim then what about our guide why have we been deprived of a guide/imam. What goes is an imam to us if he is inaccessible.

The early Shia used to say that us SUNNIS are wrong because Allah (swt) would never leave us without an infallible guide but look now, we are all in the same position today.

YOU SAID

your Also Doubted whether Ali Had the Knowledge of the Quran

MY ANSWER

My dear brother I have NOT "doubted" imam ali (a.s) had the knowledge of the quran I simply said that ali ( a.s) is not the only one possessing knowledge of the quran. I can point to you authentic hadith where the prophet (pbuh) said other sahaba also are very knowledgeable regarding the quran.

YOU SAID

Allah has sent warning to Aysha and Hasfa her Disloyalty to the prophet (s) and Imam Ali (s), I will even prove to you from your Sunni Tafsir Al Qurtubi:

MY ANSWER

Sorry brother but you've lost me... How does this prove anything?? Yes aisha (r.a) and hafsa (r.a) were warned with an example but they were only "warned" and not told they were hell bound or disbelievers. Correct me if I'm wrong but the prophet (pbuh) did not divorce then but actually chose to breathe his last in house of aisha (r.a) which proves that after this verse she regretted her actions and repented otherwise the prophet (pbuh) would have divorced them.

YOU SAID

Now I believe you are trying to justify option 1, and say that consensus (agreement) is the best way to go. (although I have proved this to be wrong from the Authentic Ahadith in your books as you can see clearly and the verse which I have stated. If The Ummah Chose option one, than Why did the prophet Appoint Imam Ali as successor? ( I have proved this as you can see above )

MY AMSWER

please read my above answer

YOU SAID

Did the Quran say that the Islamic Ummah should chose their own Khalifa? or did Allah appoint a guide for every nation (people)? my dear Brother, Your not replying Directly at the my response

MY ANSWER

Brother you really need to understand that before anything can be called an usul ad din which is the foundation it has to fit to the criteria given in the beginning of surah 3:7

Otherwise you will end up doing what Allah says in the next part of the verse:

and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

My brother you do not want to go down this route.

Also you still haven't answered me one question:

If I reject and say I do not believe in angels am I a Muslim?

If no then why am I a Muslim for rejecting imamat?

They are both usul ad din yet according to shia I'm a kafir for rejecting angels yet I'm still a Muslim for rejecting imamat, why??

Brother regarding saqifa, until you cannot answer me the above then there is no point in talking about saqifa.

YOU SAID

The first is the calamity of Thursday wherein certain individuals that successfully impeded the ability of Rasulullah (s) from dictating his will on his deathbed, so that no written record of his choice of successor would exist.

MY ANSWER

This does not prove a single thing for you my brother. Firstly nobody k ows exactly what the prophet (pbuh) wanted to write down, but lets say it was Imamate then please do not forget that the prophet (pbuh) passed away three days later and if it was so important then why not write it down within then three days??

Also umar (r.a) nor anybody else could stop the plan of Allah (swt) if the message was that important.

YOU SAID

The curious reaction of Umar to the death of the Prophet (s) Is really Amazing....Abu Bakr was not in Madinah but was at a town called Sunh, upon hearing news of the Prophet (saws)’s demise he returned to Madinah by horse. Meanwhile Umar was seeking to deny this information and was in fact threatening to kill people who said that the Prophet (saaws) was dead.

MY ANSWER

My brother there are many stages a person goes through when he is hit with the loss of a loved one, it is in human nature to react in different ways below is an article which will inshallah help you understand a but more to umar (r.a) reactions

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages-of-loss-and-grief/000617

When you say umar (r.a) believed in rajah then this is a total false and baseless accusation, he was depressed and was looking for a way out this does not mean that he actually "believed" in rajah. To believe something you have to believe it adamantly but umar (r.a) never believed it adamantly but was actually in a state of distress when he said what he said.

YOU SAID

Grief doesn’t just evaporate in seconds, it stays with a sufferer for a considerable period of time. In the case of Umar this ‘grief’ evaporated as soon as Abu Bakr returned from Sukh

MY ANSWER

My brother this is totally false umar (r.a) depression never "evaporated" rather he understood the words of abu bakr (r.a) and came to terms that the prophet (pbuh) had passed away. When you come to terms with the loss of a loved one this does not mean your grief has "evaporated" but rather you have come to terms with it but the pain is still there.

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THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

YOU SAID

What is more important the the Burial of the prophet my Dear brother? Is electing the new Khalifa more important? when the prophet (s) already elected Imam Ali (s) as the successor, they went and made their own so called "khalifa" whats more Ironic, not the whole Ummah voted on it, so your definition of "Democracy (consensus)" should rather be called "Dictatorship".

MY ANSWER

You really need to read into saqifa and look at the desperation of the situation my brother, had umar and abu bakr not had done what they had done the ummah would have fallen into a severe civil war.

I accept that the the method was wrong but the ultimate decision was right. Umar confirms wgat I have said in sahih bukhari. It's a but like modern democracy and its about to be destroyed but somebody quickly choose later a leader but the leader is good. So the method of choosing the leader was wrong but ultimately the decision was right because the leader was good.

THE ISLAM HISTORY

YOU SAID

“It is related by Omar that as they were seated in the Prophet’s house a man cried out all of a sudden from outside: ‘O son of Khattab (Omar” pray step out for a moment’. Omar told him to leave them alone and go away as they were busy in making arrangements for the burial of the Prophet. The man replied that an incident had occurred i.e., the Ansar were gathering in force in the Thaqifah Bani Sa’idah and, as the situation was grave, it was necessary that he (Omar) should go and look in to the matter lest the Ansar should do something which would lead to a war. On this Omar said to Abu Bakr, ‘Let us go’.

MY ANSWER

My brother you see from above how umar (r.a) told the man to "go away" because they were busy in preparing the Funeral of the prophet (pbuh). Had saqifa been a deliberate set up from umar (r.a) side then he wouldn't have been with the prophets (pbuh ) side in the first place.

Aldo by umar (r.a) saying "go away" this further proved that he had no interest in saqifa but had to go because the situation was desperate because it could have led to war.

YOU SAID

“Now then: O people, I have been put in charge of you, although I am not the best of you. Help me if I do well; rectify me if I do wrong”.

Tarikh Tabari, English translation Volume 9 page 201

MY ANSWER

My brother this takes us back to the verse 4:59 notice how abu bakr says; Help me if I do well; rectify me if I do wrong”. How could people rectify abu bakr (r.a)?? You will find the answer in the last part of the verse and that is refer it to Allah (swt) and prophet (pbuh) quran and hadith.

YOU SAID

My dear friend, I have just shown you proof that Imam Ali (s) is the Caliph of every believer and He is the Leader and Guide for the Muslim Ummah, and he Is the Master of the Ummat Rosallah , its very clear as you can see, you claim that he is Just "A Spiritual leader" If your saying Spiritual then you must mean by Religion, and therefore Abu Bakr is a leader in what? politics

MY ANSWER

I will go into detail regarding what you have said, after you answer my queries regarding Imamate and verse 33:33

YOU SAID

I am also suprised friend, that you ignore that Breaking and the burning of the house of Fatima al Zahra (s), Why so? is it because You ignore such truth and try to make the position of the killers of the daughter of the prophet justifiable?

MY ANSWER

The fairy tale of burning of the house and killing the unborn baby has been refuted by shia scholar also, he goes by the name of fadlullah maybe you should read why he refuted it also ayatollah khoei had said when he was asked regarding this he replied:

That is what’s popular and known and Allah knows best. [sirat al-Najat 3/314].

So I'm sorry brother but a hadith does not become authentic because it is "popular" a hadith had to pass many guidelines before it is considered sahih.

Also fadlullah said the following in a speech:

personally reject the stories regarding the attack on her house along with breaking her ribs since our shia history doesn’t prove that this incident has occurred to sayeda Alzahraa”.

It is recorded:

[sayed Fadhulla, a speech that was given on mothers day, 1999, Beirut lebnan. This is recorded in: "Almula7azat" by Sayed Yaseen Almusawi, Published by "Dar Al9eddeqa Alkubra" in Beirut Lebanon, 2000]

So I'm sorry brother but if your own ayatollahs are having trouble believing this fairy tale then how do you accept us to believe it. I've Already told you the hadith are fabricated.

Also do you not find it rather wierd that this child was named before he was born and it was also known he would be a boy??

We SUNNIS have authentic hadith that muhassan (a.s) was born in the time of the prophet (pbuh) but of course died in infancy.

علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال : لمَّا ولد الحسن جـاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت : سمّيته حرباً ، قال : بل هـو حسن ، فلما ولد الحسين قال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت سميته حرباً ، قال : بل هو حسين . فلما ولد الثالث جاء النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت حرباً ، قال : بل هو محسَّن ثم قال : إني سمّيتهم بأسماء ولد هارون شبّر وشُبَيْر ومشبّر

Ali bin Abi talib RA said: When al Hassan was born the Prophet PBUh came and said: Show me my boy, what have you named him? I said: I called him Harb, he said: Nay He is Hassan, When al Hussein was born the Prophet PBUH said: show me my boy, what have you named him? I said: Harb, he said: Nay he is Hussein, and when the third was born the Prophet PBUH came then said: Show me my boy, what have you named him? I said: Harb, He said: Nay he is Muhassan, then He said: I have named them after the names of the children of Haroun(Aaron) they are Shibr, Shubeir, Mushabbar.

source: مسند أحمد (1/98) إسناده صحيح .

Musnad Ahmad 1/98, Isnad is SAHIH.

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement: My dear brother/sister you say that the prophets dua cannot be rejected which I totally agree with, but the question is why do a dua to Allah to make AHLE BAYT infalliable if they already are?? (Invalid).

 

Answer: How would then Allah prove the position of Ahlulbayt (s)? its like you saying Why did Allah reveal the Quran, if Muhammad has all the knowledge of the unseen and the truth. So dear, Allah reveals such through the prophet (s) to make it a "Hujja" on the The Ummah. And Considering the Second Statement after this which is also invalid, Again my dear , I explained that the wives cannot be included with the

"ahlul" Al "Bayt" your Argument on the two words "purify and Intend" Is also Baseless.  We read in Sahih Muslim Sahih Muslim Book 31 hadith number 5955 about Hadith kisa, its clear that he pin pointed at his Family members. No need to Go around in Circles. And In Risalat Al Khoei He was talking about the "Ahl" in general, therefore it does not go in relation to the Hadith al Kissa, and it you claim it is correct, then it will go against the Quran and Hadith. Also please don't bring anything from the Ulma, Because you will be easily refuted and also we don't want to mention some of your Ulma for Arguments sake. and With this I have proved through the Hadiths in Of Ahlulabyt which are above the post I posted.

Concerning prophet Adam yes he did sin. But you really are going into baseless loop holes. First of All Prophet Adam (s) was not a prophet When he was in the heavens, and second of All, his Prophet hood began when he came down to earth and only then has Allah blessed him with knowledge.  And Yet your try to ignore the Fact that Imam Ali (s) is the Khalifa, Which I find very Fascinating. "A lose Doge" really.

 

I have mentioned Many Ahadith where the prophet uses the Word "Khalifa" from your books so no need to reply unless you can reject those Authetnic Ahadith. 

     


I will answer your Questions Shortly. 

Inshalla, I also have a life to get on with. 


Wa al salam.

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Statement: My dear brother/sister you say that the prophets dua cannot be rejected which I totally agree with, but the question is why do a dua to Allah to make AHLE BAYT infalliable if they already are?? (Invalid).

Answer: How would then Allah prove the position of Ahlulbayt (s)? its like you saying Why did Allah reveal the Quran, if Muhammad has all the knowledge of the unseen and the truth. So dear, Allah reveals such through the prophet (s) to make it a "Hujja" on the The Ummah. And Considering the Second Statement after this which is also invalid, Again my dear , I explained that the wives cannot be included with the

"ahlul" Al "Bayt" your Argument on the two words "purify and Intend" Is also Baseless. We read in Sahih Muslim Sahih Muslim Book 31 hadith number 5955 about Hadith kisa, its clear that he pin pointed at his Family members. No need to Go around in Circles. And In Risalat Al Khoei He was talking about the "Ahl" in general, therefore it does not go in relation to the Hadith al Kissa, and it you claim it is correct, then it will go against the Quran and Hadith. Also please don't bring anything from the Ulma, Because you will be easily refuted and also we don't want to mention some of your Ulma for Arguments sake. and With this I have proved through the Hadiths in Of Ahlulabyt which are above the post I posted.

Concerning prophet Adam yes he did sin. But you really are going into baseless loop holes. First of All Prophet Adam (s) was not a prophet When he was in the heavens, and second of All, his Prophet hood began when he came down to earth and only then has Allah blessed him with knowledge. And Yet your try to ignore the Fact that Imam Ali (s) is the Khalifa, Which I find very Fascinating. "A lose Doge" really.

I have mentioned Many Ahadith where the prophet uses the Word "Khalifa" from your books so no need to reply unless you can reject those Authetnic Ahadith.

I will answer your Questions Shortly.

Inshalla, I also have a life to get on with.

Wa al salam.

THE ISLAMIC HISTORY

Assalamu alaykum my dear brother take your time.

1. How is my argument baseless regarding the verse of "infalliability". It's as though you're accusing Allah of grammar mistakes. You really need to understand what Allah is saying when he talks about past, present and future tense.

Now you say the ummah needed to know about infalliability, well then why use words which describe present and future and not the past.

For eg;

Surah 2 verse 3

Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,

As you can see this is hujja on the ummah so Allah talks to us in a present and future tense

BELIEVE, ESTABLISH, SPEND.

Allah here is not talking about the past but what he wants us to do and believe in the future.

I can name you numerous verses to support my argument, but you say that the whole reason Allah sent down the verse of infalliability was to let the ummah know that imams are infalliable and my question is WHY use words that talk about something that he wants to do or something he wants us to believe because the language Allah has used in the verse of infallibility talk in a present or future tense manner.

Another example is that on quranic verses Allah ( swt) says "I created the heavens and the earth". Now when Allah says I "created" we know Allah (swt) is talking about something he has done.

So this now brings us back to the verse "Allah intends to purify you". If this is how you say and it was only Allah way of telling us that they are infalliable then why use words which talk about present and future tense?? And the fact the prophet pbuh made a dua further supports me.

Firstly Allah swt uses language talking about something he wants to do and not something he already has done.

If this verse was just like you say general information to let the ummah know that imams are infalliable then why use present and future tense language??

Why did Allah not say "Allah wants to keep you purified"

Or Allah purified you

Why say he "intends" to "purify" you??

The hadith in sahih Muslim does not prove that the prophet pbuh "pin pointed" but rather proves that the verse was revealed for the wives and the prophet wanted to add in his daughters family.

If you want to talk about AHLE BAYT from the quran then be my guest but I assure you that you will fail miserably.

Regarding al khoei then yes, you are right he is talking in general ur why are our prophets wives not "in general". Are the wives of the other prophets there AHLE BAYT????

Why do shia only exempt our prophets pbuh wives.

Trust me my dear brother AHLE sunnah have won this debate a million times and inshallah will continue winning be side we can prove it from the quran that wives are AHLE BAYT alhamdulillah.

Regarding prophets a.s can make minor mistakes your argument is very weak and refuted again in the quran here:

38:23

to top

Sahih International

Indeed this, my brother, has ninety-nine ewes, and I have one ewe; so he said, 'Entrust her to me,' and he overpowered me in speech."

38:24

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Sahih International

[David] said, "He has certainly wronged you in demanding your ewe [in addition] to his ewes. And indeed, many associates oppress one another, except for those who believe and do righteous deeds - and few are they." And David became certain that We had tried him, and he asked forgiveness of his Lord and fell down bowing [in prostration] and turned in repentance [to Allah ].

38:25

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Sahih International

So We forgave him that; and indeed, for him is nearness to Us and a good place of return.

In surah 80:1- 11 the holy prophet (pbuh) frowned and turned away and was rebuked for this mistake.

Regarding the hadith of the two successors I have already explained to you why we say he was a spiritual guide and not an infalliable imam.

This is because when ali a.s is described in the quran he is described as friend of Allah (waliallah) which means peer and not one single verse in the quran does Allah swt say ali is imam after prophet, but it rather says he is friend of Allah. So we can only interpretate this hadith in a spiritual manner because waliallah's in sunni islam are peers. Ali was the first spiritual caliph of the ummah and not one single verse does Allah swt say ali is the infalliable im after the prophet.

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Why do shia only exempt our prophets pbuh wives.

 

This statement ends our Debate. Why?
because I mentioned Authentic hadiths from the 2 Sahihs and fro the Musanads
And your turn again to the same useless argument.

Wa Al salam

 

Sunni's have never one a proper debate.
Take a look at Peshawar nights.


Wa al salam 

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Why do shia only exempt our prophets pbuh wives.

This statement ends our Debate. Why?

because I mentioned Authentic hadiths from the 2 Sahihs and fro the Musanads

And your turn again to the same useless argument.

Wa Al salam

Sunni's have never one a proper debate.

Take a look at Peshawar nights.

Wa al salam

Peshawar nights!!!! No offence but I've read that book, WHAT A LOAD OF BIASED RUBBISH.

Also is this your full reply because I says I won't reply to answer fully until you reply fully to my answer.

Do you accept my challenge regarding AHLE BAYT??

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Peshawar nights!!!! No offence but I've read that book, WHAT A LOAD OF BIASED RUBBISH.

Also is this your full reply because I says I won't reply to answer fully until you reply fully to my answer.

Do you accept my challenge regarding AHLE BAYT??

 

You regard everything that doesn't fall into your beliefs as rubbish or false. 

 

Every time someone puts up some proof or evidence and you don't agree with it you either repeat your question a hundred times or you just say its rubbish/false.

 

(wasalam)

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Peshawar nights!!!! No offence but I've read that book, WHAT A LOAD OF BIASED RUBBISH.

Also is this your full reply because I says I won't reply to answer fully until you reply fully to my answer.

Do you accept my challenge regarding AHLE BAYT??

 

 

Again. Your rejected 2 of your most Authentic books and the primary source Musanad.

A book is as what you called not a load of what you just stated. There are many like it.

salam 

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You regard everything that doesn't fall into your beliefs as rubbish or false.

Every time someone puts up some proof or evidence and you don't agree with it you either repeat your question a hundred times or you just say its rubbish/false.

(wasalam)

I will only reply to you when you fully answer to my previous answers. The proof is in the quran regarding AHLE BAYT, but like I said I won't fully reply till you fully reply to my answers in the previous posts

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I will only reply to you when you fully answer to my previous answers. The proof is in the quran regarding AHLE BAYT, but like I said I won't fully reply till you fully reply to my answers in the previous posts

 

We did. and You come back by adding the wives of the prophet to the Ahlulbayt (s).

Brother Whats your reply to my Authetnic Ahadith that Imam Ali (s) should be obeyed and he is the Khalifa?

from your books (don't forget). and that Hadith you provided about uhsin been born is No Strong. WhY?

because sunni books have no value on our scales because the people who followed bu bakr are not trusted.

And its funny you give a hadith that Muhsen is born. Can you please give me a hadith on how he died? 

 

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We did. and You come back by adding the wives of the prophet to the Ahlulbayt (s).

Brother Whats your reply to my Authetnic Ahadith that Imam Ali (s) should be obeyed and he is the Khalifa?

from your books (don't forget). and that Hadith you provided about uhsin been born is No Strong. WhY?

because sunni books have no value on our scales because the people who followed bu bakr are not trusted.

And its funny you give a hadith that Muhsen is born. Can you please give me a hadith on how he died?

Like I said, when you reply to all my answers from the previous post then we will move forward.

Salams

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Like I said, when you reply to all my answers from the previous post then we will move forward.

Salams

 

Your ignoring the Argument again. I actually and did and if you read you 

will see the Corrections I made to your statements and yet no reply to them?

What about the Question about the Quran and Imamah after Jesus and the time

between jesus and the prophet (s) and the mentioning of such in Quran.

You claim I haven't answered anything, when the viewers of the page will know very well,

who gave the best answer.

  

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Your ignoring the Argument again. I actually and did and if you read you

will see the Corrections I made to your statements and yet no reply to them?

What about the Question about the Quran and Imamah after Jesus and the time

between jesus and the prophet (s) and the mentioning of such in Quran.

You claim I haven't answered anything, when the viewers of the page will know very well,

who gave the best answer.

Firstly my dear brother it looks line you're still missing the point of HOW something is considered usul ad din. WE are given strict instructions to follow something, if you don't want to take my word for it ask your own ayatollahs.

Please answer to the rest of the previous posts that I answered your questions in. Until then I refuse to discuss anything with you.

I won't be replying until you answer to my answers to the questions you asked.

Please go back and answer to all the answers I gave you.

Salsms my dear brother in islam

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Firstly my dear brother it looks line you're still missing the point of HOW something is considered usul ad din. WE are given strict instructions to follow something, if you don't want to take my word for it ask your own ayatollahs.

Please answer to the rest of the previous posts that I answered your questions in. Until then I refuse to discuss anything with you.

I won't be replying until you answer to my answers to the questions you asked.

Please go back and answer to all the answers I gave you.

Salsms my dear brother in islam

 

Refuse to Discuss with me? Who said I asked you to.

Second of Allah you did not reject my Refutation.

And Make the wives of the prophet (s) apart of Ahlulbayt as you claimed,

whats the point when you reject even the 6 Sahihs on this issue. And for the last time 

they are not included in the "irta".

 

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Refuse to Discuss with me? Who said I asked you to.

Second of Allah you did not reject my Refutation.

And Make the wives of the prophet (s) apart of Ahlulbayt as you claimed,

whats the point when you reject even the 6 Sahihs on this issue. And for the last time

they are not included in the "irta".

My dear brother are you going to refute my answers I've given you in my previous posts??

I promise you I will go into deep deep detail regarding wives being AHLE BAYT if you answer to my answers in previous posts.

Will you answer to all my answers??

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My dear brother are you going to refute my answers I've given you in my previous posts??

I promise you I will go into deep deep detail regarding wives being AHLE BAYT if you answer to my answers in previous posts.

Will you answer to all my answers??

Wow? are you serious brother for the last time please look at the Ahadith I have given you about the Ahlulbayt (s) and the Wives are not Included:

If you say so this goes against:

1) Sahih Muslim, 

2) Sahih Tirimidi (Ja'ma al Kabeer)

3) Musand Ibn Hanbale (Later I shows you an Authentic Hadith)

4) the Holy Noble  Quran.

5) The Arabic Language it self.  

I answered you answers but you did no refute or even comment on my Sahih Ahadith.??

wa al salam

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In addition a few posts ago you said the wives are not from Ahlulbayt (s), and now your saying they are,

Brother please tell me your joking, if your going to count the wives of the Ahlulbayt of the prophet (s),

Your Saying Basically Refuting your Musanad and Sahihs + Misunderstanding the Quran. Brother in the Sunnu Tafsir 

Ruh AL ma'ani he says that they are not included and this is clear from hadith al Thaqlayn (two weighty things).


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 

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The Hadith you pointed out about Muhsen (s) only proves that he Death was with Fatima (s) while they attacked the house of Fatima (s) the Daughter of the Prophet (s).

Please brother answer to ALL my answers.

Also how does the hadith prove that the death was because of attack in the house?????

Shia say muhassan died in the womb of his blessed mother whereas we say he was born.

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THE ISLAM HISTORY

Assalamu alaykum my dear brother/sister.

YOU SAID:

As you can see my dear friend the prophet (s) starts the Dua by addressing His Ahlulbayt (s), therefore the Dua that that prophet (s) is making, is not for him, but for them, ad you know he is the prophet (s) he at very rare cases prayers for himself, and you can see he is addressing his Ahlulbayt and not him self and when he comes to the line when he says: " وَأَذْهِبْ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَطَهِّرهُمْ تَطْهِيراً", as you see his saying "Remove Impurity" from them, and I'm sure me and you know, that the the Dua of the prophet (s) is always answered and cannot be rejected my dear brother

MY ANSWER.

My dear brother/sister you say that the prophets (pbuh) dua cannot be rejected which I totally agree with, but the question is why do a dua to Allah to make AHLE BAYT infalliable if they already are??

Now lets take a deeper look into this verse.

Quran surah 33:33

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

44O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings, Benevolence, Forgiveness and Your pleasure upon me and upon them. And remove impurity from them and keep them thoroughly pure.

My dear brother as you can see in the verse the language used by the almighty ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì goes totally against shia belief.

Let me explain:

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity

First Allah ( swt) says he "intends" to remove from them there impurity. So from the word "intends" we see that here the almighty ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is talking about something he wants to do and not something he has already done, otherwise it would have said "intended". When you "intend" on doing something you are talking about present and future tense. So if the imams were born sinless why would Allah (swt)say he intends.

This now brings us to the last part of this verse:

, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

The key word here is "purify", this word is also talking either present or future tense and not past tense.

So the two important words are "intends" and "purify" both these words talk about either present or future tense.

 

The word used is يُرِيدُ

 

As you should be well aware, the meaning of this verb depends on the context. If a human being, who is bound by temporal existence says this, it is possible it could mean future tense, but if Allah(s.w.a) says this, it means something completely different. Allah(s.w.a) is not bound by past, present, or future. To say this is future tense, given the fact that this is stated by Allah(s.w.a), well, what can I say, this is a very wrong interpretation. For Allah(s.w.a) there is no present, past, or future, and He(s.w.a) is not bound by circumstances or temporality. When He says to something 'be', it is and when he wants something to happen, it happens, period. 

 

This reminds me of the verbal gymnastics done by the Chrsitans to explain the Trinity. The ayat is very simple in it's meaning, 

Allah(s.w.a) is removing (present tense in fact because Allah(s.w.a) is not bound by time) ALL IMPURITIES from you (AL Rijs, as the brother pointed out) Ahl Al Bayt and purifying you with a thorough purification. 

 

Be careful to note  الرِّجْسَ and يُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

 

These phrases are used nowhere else in the Quran in relation to a group of people. Meaning this group is unique in their purity. Since the Quran refers to all sins and defects as 'rijs' or impurity, it means that this group is sinless or infallible. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Also if you still believe that this verse is talking about infalliability then the prophets (pbuh) wives are also infallible.

Also in this verse the prophets (pbuh ) wives are also part of the AHLE BAYT.

I am fully aware of the argument shia put forward for verse 33:33 regarding masculine etc etc. I am willing to debate this with you if you want.

 

There are two proofs from the Quran that the wives are not included. The first is the switch in gender being addressed. As you know, in the Arabic language when gender being addressed is changed, this means that the ayat is addressing a different group. The ayat 33:33 begins addressing a group of only women, وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ

This continues until the phrase  إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ

 

Now the ayat is addressing a different group, a mixed group of men and women. If the ayat is referring to the same group, or a group that includes the same, one wonders why the gender of the group addressed would switch , IN THE MIDDLE OF THE AYAT, and would thereby cause confusion to everyone reading the Quran ? This isn't the case. 

This is not befitting Allah(s.w.a) to do something like this. It is clear that, starting from إِنَّمَا, the ayat is addressing a different group of people that does not include the wives. 

 

The Second Proof

 

If the wives were infallible, as you say, then what about this ayat. 66:4

 

إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ

 

Would that you two turn unto God in repentance, for the hearts of both of you have swerved(from what is right) And if you uphold each other against him (who is God's message-bearer, know that) God Himself is his Protector, and (that,) therefore, Gabriel, and all the righteous among the believers and all the (other) angels will come to his aid."

 

66:5

 

عَسَى رَبُّهُ إِن طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَن يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِّنكُنَّ مُسْلِمَاتٍ مُّؤْمِنَاتٍ قَانِتَاتٍ تَائِبَاتٍ عَابِدَاتٍ سَائِحَاتٍ ثَيِّبَاتٍ وَأَبْكَارًا

[O wives of the Prophet!] Were he to divorce [any of] you, God might well give him in your stead spouses better than you - women who surrender themselves unto God, who truly believe, devoutly obey His will, turn [unto Him] in repentance [whenever they have sinned] worship [Him alone] and go on and on [seeking His goodly acceptance] [9] - be they women previously married or virgins. 

 

And who are these ayats reffering to ? The wives of the Prophet, namely Aisha and Hafsa

 

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 434: 

"Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle used to drink honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and would stay there with her. So Hafsa and I agreed secretly that, if he come to either of us, she would say to him. "It seems you have eaten Maghafir (a kind of bad-smelling resin), for I smell in you the smell of Maghafir," (We did so) and he replied. "No, but I was drinking honey in the house of Zainab, the daughter of Jahsh, and I shall never take it again. I have taken an oath as to that, and you should not tell anybody about it".

Surah Tehreem verses 1, 4 and 10-11 were revealed for this incident:

 

Now to plot against Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) behind his back is a major sin, and then to have an ayat in the Quran revealed against you is even greater than that.BTW, this was the only ayat in the Quran that was revealed regarding these two wives, and it is condemning them. Our Sunni brothers like to pass over this fact and elevate these two above the rest but regardless, how is it possible that (some ) of the wives of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) are condemned in the Quran, and then they have a verse like 33:33 revealed concerning them. Not possible. 

 

Also, there is nowhere in the Quran that wives of the Prophets are given any sort of immunity from sin, and in fact there are other verses condemning wives of the prophets. You are probably familiar with the ayats condemning the wives of other prophets as well as acting as a warning to the above 2. 65:10-11

Edited by Abu Hadi

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There is some options here. If they are infallible, then it contradicts some of the wife's actions and Quranic verses, thus it is impossible that the prophet wife's are infallible. 

Second. If they are fallible, then this verse means that whatever sins they do, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì will purify them. Which is contradiction with other Prophets/Messengers wife's rights. Also it is contradiction with the verse Brother just mentioned, about the divorcing. Why they have the limits to get divorced when they will be constantly purified?

Third. If the wifes are included in such a verse, then it is impossible that Prophet Wife can start a Fitna War. I don't know how it is possible that when Allah says "
Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin]", how can she have such a heart to do such a crime after the constant purification?

 

Fallible or Infallible, Wifes can't include to that verse. Because it will contradict their actions toward that verse.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Statement:

Also how does the hadith prove that the death was because of attack in the house?????
Shia say muhassan died in the womb of his blessed mother whereas we say he was born.

 

The Dropping of the Infant Mohsin the Son of Imam Ali (as)

 

the folk stories in this position very confused, know that all of their stories and words.
We have provided for their stories, it was Ali (Peace Be Upon Him) of male three children: Hassan, Hussein, and Mohsen or Mohsen or Mohsen, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) has been called these these names in analogy of the names of children Harun:  شَبَر شُبير ومشبّر، (Shiber, Shabeer, and Mushabar) and this exists in: Musanad Ahmaed Ibn Hanbal (1) and in Mustadark al Sahihain, and the Hakem has made it correct (sahah'o)
____________
(1) Musanad Ahmed 1/118.
(2) Mustadarak Al Saheehian 3/165
 
 
صحّحه(1) ، وموجود في مصادر أُخرى.
فيبقى السؤال: هل كان لعلي ولد بهذا الاسم أو لا ؟ قالوا: كان له ولد بهذا الاسم... فأين صار ؟ وما صار حاله ؟ يقولون بوجوده ثمّ يختلفون، أتريدون أن يصرّحوا تصريحاً واضحاً لا لبس فيه ولا غبار عليه ؟! إنّه في القضايا الجزئيّة البسيطة يتلاعبون بالاخبار والاحاديث، كما رأينا في هذه المباحث، وسنرى في المباحث الاتية، وفي مثل هذه القضيّة تتوقّعون أن يصرّحوا ؟ نعم، عثرنا على أفراد معدودين منهم قالوا بالحقيقة وواجهوا ما واجهوا، وتحمّلوا ما تحمّلوا.
 

 

Has corrected (1), and exists in other Sources.
What remains is the question: Does the am born with this name or not? They said: it was born with this name ... Where is it? And what is it? They say his presence and then disagree, do you want to say a statement is clear and unambiguous and dust it ?!  It is in simple partial issues manipulate news Hadiths, as we have seen in this investigation, and we will see in the following investigation, and in such case you expect to say? Yes, we found the individuals counted them, they said the truth and confronted what they faced, and endured and did not endure.

 
أحدهم: ابن أبي دارم المتوفى سنة 352 هـ.
قال الذهبي بترجمته: الامام الحافظ الفاضل أبو بكر أحمد بن محمّد السري بن يحيى بن السري بن أبي دارم التميمي الكوفي الشيعي [ أصبح شيعياً !! ] محدِّث الكوفة، حدّث عنه الحاكم، وأبو بكر ابن مردويه، ويحيى بن إبراهيم المزكِّي، وأبو الحسن ابن الحمّامي، والقاضي أبو بكر الجيلي، وآخرون. كان موصوفاً بالحفظ والمعرفة، إلاّ أنّه يترفّض [ لماذا يترفّض ؟ ] قد ألّف في الحطّ على بعض الصحابة»(2) .
____________
(1) المستدرك على الصحيحين. ذيله. 
(2) سير أعلام النبلاء 15 / 576.
 
 
One of them: Ibn Abi Darmstadt, Past Away years 352 (Hijra)
Imam Al Thahabi said translated: Imam al-Hafidh al-Fadil, Abu Bakr Ahmed bin Mohammed bin Yahya Bin Alsery and bin Abi Darmstadt Shiite Al-Tamimi Alkoffy ] became Shiites !! ] Narrations of Kufa, narration from al hakem , and Abu Bakr Ibn Mardiwya مردويه, Yahya Bin Ibrahim Al Musaki, and Abu al-Hassan Ibn al-Hamami, ,al qathi Abu Bakr al je'lei, and others. And was Characterized with memorization and knowledge, but he refused] Why Does he Refuse? ] He made in "Al Het"  on some companions" (2) .
 
_______________________
(1) Al Mustadarak Ala al sahehain. Its tail.
(2) Sirat al al'alam al Numbala 15/ 576
 
 
لا يقول أكثر من هذا: ألّف في الحطّ على بعض الصحابة، فهو إذنْ يترفّض. 
ولو راجعتم كتابه الاخر ميزان الاعتدال فهناك يذكر هذا الشخص ويترجم له، وينقل عن الحافظ محمّد بن أحمد بن حمّاد الكوفي الحافظ أبي بشر الدولابي(1) فيقول: قال محمّد بن أحمد بن حمّاد الكوفي الحافظ ـ بعد أن أرّخ موته ـ كان مستقيم الامر عامّة دهره، ثمّ في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب، حضرته ورجل يقرأ عليه: إنّ عمر رفس فاطمة حتّى أسقطت بمحسن(2) .
كان مستقيم الامر عامّة دهره، لكنّه في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب، فهو ـ إذن ـ خارج عن الاستقامة !!
أتذكّر أنّ أحد الصحابة وهو عمران بن حصين ـ هذاالرجل كان من كبار الصحابة، يثنون عليه غاية الثناء، ويكتبون بترجمته إنّ الملائكة كانت تحدّثه، لعظمة قدره وجلالة شأنه(3) ـ هذا الشخص عندما دنا أجله، أرسل إلى أحد أصحابه، وحدّثه عن رسول الله بمتعة الحج ـ التي حرّمها عمر بن الخطّاب وأنكر عليه 
____________
(1) سير أعلام النبلاء 14/309. 
(2) ميزان الاعتدال 1/139.
(3) الاصابة في معرفة الصحابة 3 / 26.
 
 
________________________________________________



Proof the the Mohsin (as), Was dropped and was not born: Sunnah Reference:

((كان مستقيم الأمر عامة دهره, ثم في آخر أيّامه كان أكثر ما يقرأ عليه المثالب, قال _ الراوي _: حضرته ورجل يقرأ عليه: إنّ عمر رفس فاطمة حتى أسقطت بمحسّن)
 
"Umar Kicked Fatima (s), Until the infant dropped."


1- ميزان الاعتدال1: 139؛ ولاحظ سير أعلام النبلاء له أيضاً 15: 578؛ وعنه ابن حجر في كتابه لسان الميزان1: 268.

and many more that his Death at birth:
 سليمان القندوزي الحنفي (ت 1293 هـ) قال في ينابيع المودة(1): وولدت فاطمة حسناً وحسيناً ومحسناً... ومات محسن صغيراً.

26 _ الاسحاقي في تاريخه أخبار الدول(2) قال: فاما محسن فمات صغيراً في حياة النبي(صلى الله عليه وآله).

27 _ زينب بنت يوسف فواز في الدر المنثور في طبقات ربات الخدور(3)، قالت: وأما أولادها _ تعني فاطمة _ فالحسن والحسين والمحسن, وهذا مات صغيراً.

28 _ الشبلنجي في نور الأبصار(4) قال: وأما أولادها فالحسن والحسين والمحسن وهذا مات صغيراً، وقال أيضاً(5): أما الذكور فالحسن والحسين ومحسن، وفي كلام غيره _ يعني كتاب بغية الطالب _: مات صغيراً.

29 _ عبيد الله آمرتسري في أرجح المطالب(6) نقله عن البدخشي، وقد مرّ ذكره وقال: مات صغيراً, وتبع هؤلاء من الكتّاب المحدثين مثل الكاتب الشهير عباس محمود العقّاد في كتابه فاطمة الزهراء ضمن شخصيات إسلامية(7), وطاهر الحبوش في كتابه أصحاب صاحب البراق(8).

30 _ الحسين الحسيني السمرقندي (ت نحو 1043 هـ) قال في كتابه تحفة


Second of All you mentioned the following:

علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال : لمَّا ولد الحسن جـاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت : سمّيته حرباً ، قال : بل هـو حسن ، فلما ولد الحسين قال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت سميته حرباً ، قال : بل هو حسين . فلما ولد الثالث جاء النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : أروني ابني ما سميتموه ؟ قلت حرباً ، قال : بل هو محسَّن ثم قال : إني سمّيتهم بأسماء ولد هارون شبّر وشُبَيْر ومشبّ


This hadith is false, a lie, and more than a lie, Imam Ali (as) would lever name his sons "harban" (war), How can you believe this? That the Imam Ali (as) would name his sons "War"? does this make sense to you, yes it is Sahih but thats for you! Sunnah!, not us, and I have no doubt in the chain of narration that it is filled with lairs who follow abu bakr, second of all, In time of the prophet (pbuh) people name the Infant before he is born, and this has been mentioned in many hadith, and thrid of all thr Translation in nor accurate, why? because the word "Wul'd" which means "Born" In English has many meanings in Arabic, and it was used has he is not born as in he cameout of his mother, no, but he is born in the means he is in the womb. And for the last time Sunni books have no Worth on our scales. We only present them to you for proofs, other than that, nothing.

  
More proof:

http://www.aqaed.com/book/550/almohsen_04.html

 
 

And no, Why would I need to reply to you, when you did not reply to my previous Questions on Imamah and the Authentic ahadith on the Leadership of Ali (as). 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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