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peace seeker

Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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Okay I don't see where in Chapter 42 it says that some people can get together and vote on Islamic rulings and decide how to change Islam.

Bottom line is that there is no evidence in Islam for what Abu Bakr and his followers did.

Don't you think if Allah were all knowing and in control and wanted Abu Bakr to be the leader that he would've said so at Ghadeer Khum or any other multiple occasions? But Abu Bakr was not even allowed to marry Fatima, everyone wanted to marry Fatima but why not let Abu Bakr marry her if Abu Bakr is the best man?

Oh wait it must be because Abu Bakr isn't good enough for Fatima, and he isn't good enough to lead the muslims, and he isn't knowledgeable enough. He must have lacked qualifications which is why he had a fight with Ali and other groups of people who disagreed with him having a secret election.

Jesus didn't have an election... There is no election for prophets, no body gets up and elects the next prophet...

So what you're telling me is that either Muhammad or Allah are forgetful and didn't realize they forgot to choose a successor...

Or that Muhammad or Allah are forgetful and forgot to tell us to elect our own successor.

In any case, proposing that Ijma is the method of choosing a successor is un-Islamic and insulting to an omniscient being.

Lol calm down my dear calm down.

YOU asked for my evidence regarding ijma and I not only showed you a verse but showed you a surah called shura!!

Okay okay... Abu bakr was useless according to you but... He was good enough for Allah and his prophet when he left Makkah to go madinah!!!

If he was so bad why or why would Allah and his apostle trust him, he could have easily started screaming to the QURAISH that Muhammad (pbuh) is here come and get him??

The truth is Allah and prophet loved and trusted him so....,, GET OVER IT

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Lol calm down my dear calm down.

YOU asked for my evidence regarding ijma and I not only showed you a verse but showed you a surah called shura!!

Okay okay... Abu bakr was useless according to you but... He was good enough for Allah and his prophet when he left Makkah to go madinah!!!

If he was so bad why or why would Allah and his apostle trust him, he could have easily started screaming to the QURAISH that Muhammad (pbuh) is here come and get him??

The truth is Allah and prophet loved and trusted him so....,, GET OVER IT

 

So you think that Allah and Muhammad were forgetful to appoint a successor, or to tell us to appoint successors in the Qur'an?

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So you think that Allah and Muhammad were forgetful to appoint a successor, or to tell us to appoint successors in the Qur'an?

Hold up. You asked me for evidence regarding SHURA/ ijma and I gave it to you so let's take a step back...

Do you now believe that ijma exists in quran/islam??

Answer that first

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statement.
3. I am nobody to offer you tafsir my brother/sister.
Firstly he is not our HIGHEST tafsir ulama. Believe me I do read a lot more than you.

 

Reply: Mashalla, Would you like to give us the books of your tafsir, so that we may read them and perhaps even learn. In this case Qurtbabi

,ib Kahtir, ect, are worth nothing in your scales, yet most Sunni's accept them as the the highest Tafsir. Very Good answer. You ignore my answer,

and asnwer me back with no proof what so ever. Very Amazed are we? Most of the Ahadith are no copied and pasted, also concerning your conclusion that we

continue to read the verse...O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." I have given you a very solid reason on that he left his Ahlulbayt, Incharge of Ummah, and I also gave Sahih Hadith, which till today you have'nt answered. Where is your refutation? Rebutation? I'm kindly. Waiting. Sorry, I tought you knew Arabic? No? urdu? No? I even attached english Proof. Please go back and try to make a proper statement. Whilst these two categories (political leadership and army leadership) should work in co-ordination with one another through an atmosphere of mutual respect an understanding of their separate roles and responsibilities, what should happen in the eventuality of a dispute arising between the two groups? The answer is provided for us in the second portion of Surah Nisa verses 059:

 

YUSUFALI: … If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

 

Since we can’t physically refer to Allah and his Prophet (s) and this verse is applicable for all generations, we will need to turn to the Book of Allah (swt) and the Sunnah of his Messenger for an answer. In the absence of the physical presence of the Prophet (s) when it comes to resolving the dispute via the Qur’an and Sunnah then that responsibility will fall on to the shoulders of the third category of Ul’il Amr the Fuquha (scholars of Deen). In theory this third group should be able to resolve the impasse between the first two groups by ruling in accordance with the dictates of the Qur’an and Sunnah. Sadly, when we put theory in to practice in Muslim countries such as Pakistan we see that the Ulema are themselves participants in politics and divided across political affiliation, they also have different understanding / interpretations of the Qur’an and Sunnah (that includes Hadith that contradict one another). Indeed the greatest amount of division that has occurred is in relation to this catergory of Ul’il Amr, beautifully identified by Waheedudeen Zaman Khan who writes:

“It is the same state of affairs for today’s Muslims is that they do not have an Imam, who they will all agree on obeying. In accepting him every Sect has appointed their own Maulana / Spiritual Guide, they don

’t listen to anyone else”

Tayseer al Bari Sharh Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9 page 149

 

 

If Imam Ali and Abu Bakr are both Khalifas, how can both Govern at the same time when Ali (as) never was given the chance to govern, thanks you Abu bakr.

 

Renowned grand Mufti Muhammad Shafi (Late) father of Justice Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani states:

 

“Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Hasan Basri and the Tafseer scholars, have said that Wali al Amr refers to the scholars of Fiqh, they are the representatives of the Prophet, and the administeration of the Deen is in their hands…One group of Tafseer scholars, that includes Abu Hurrayra says Wali al Amar refers to principles and power, one who runs the State”
Tafsir Maarif al Qur’an Volume 2 page 450

 

He then cites the third option…

 

 

statement:

So if we have Allah ( swt ) quran and prophet pbuh hadith to refer to why would we need an INFALLIABLE IMAMS?? Don't we have quran and hadith to refer to.
Why has Allah not given ulil amr the same authority regarding being referred to??

 

Reply: I gave you clear Ahadith that the prophet (pbuh) said: I have left in you two things, The book of Allah and MY AHLULBAYT.
Please refer back to the previous post.


 

 

….Tafseer Ibn Katheer and Tafseer Mazhari state it refers to both Ulema and Leader, since power is administered by both”.
Tafsir Maarif al Qur’an Volume 2 page 452

 

Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi said it referred to both but is this logical? History is replete with examples of difference between the scholars and the State Leader, in fact the Sunni’s cannot agree on the Wali al Amr at one particular time, we cite the comments Muhammad Ameen Minhaas who is writing on the failure of Islamic parties:

 

“The first portion of Surah Nisa refers the Wali al Amr that has not been acted on for centuries even though the Qur’an is applicable to all times, Islam does not allow you to ignore it, although it is happening, . Today’s Ummah needs to recognise the concept of the Wali al Amr, and should accordingly obey him”
Pyaam Magazine Edition 199 [islamabad]

 

_________________________________________________________________________________

 

statement:

If khamenei messes up you do just what us SUNNIS did, refer it back to Allah and prophet ( pbuh) which is what we are instructed to do in verse 4:59 so why does the ulil amr have to be infalliable if we have to refer it back to Allah ( swt ) and prophet ( pbuh )??? Quran and hadith.

 

Why do you repeat the same Question, Sayed Ali Al Khamenei as I explained (It seems you don't read at all), He is not an IMAM of the world, he is just an Alem and a leader of a country, Khamenei of course thim self believes in the 12 Imams (ulualmar). Please stop Spamming the same Question.

 


Hold up. You asked me for evidence regarding SHURA/ ijma and I gave it to you so let's take a step back...

Do you now believe that ijma exists in quran/islam??

Answer that first

This Arguement is baseless friend.
you did not reply to my Question and yet you repeat the same.
_______________________________________

if your going to refute every Hadith. than do not bother.
You still have not replied to my topic that I made,
Second of All you have not replied to the hard evidenet proof I provided,
you repeat the same Q and A over and over.

Wa Al Salam


statement.
3. I am nobody to offer you tafsir my brother/sister.
Firstly he is not our HIGHEST tafsir ulama. Believe me I do read a lot more than you.

 

Reply: Mashalla, Would you like to give us the books of your tafsir, so that we may read them and perhaps even learn. In this case Qurtbabi

,ib Kahtir, ect, are worth nothing in your scales, yet most Sunni's accept them as the the highest Tafsir. Very Good answer. You ignore my answer,

and asnwer me back with no proof what so ever. Very Amazed are we? Most of the Ahadith are no copied and pasted, also concerning your conclusion that we

continue to read the verse...O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." I have given you a very solid reason on that he left his Ahlulbayt, Incharge of Ummah, and I also gave Sahih Hadith, which till today you have'nt answered. Where is your refutation? Rebutation? I'm kindly. Waiting. Sorry, I tought you knew Arabic? No? urdu? No? I even attached english Proof. Please go back and try to make a proper statement. Whilst these two categories (political leadership and army leadership) should work in co-ordination with one another through an atmosphere of mutual respect an understanding of their separate roles and responsibilities, what should happen in the eventuality of a dispute arising between the two groups? The answer is provided for us in the second portion of Surah Nisa verses 059:

 

YUSUFALI: … If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

 

Since we can’t physically refer to Allah and his Prophet (s) and this verse is applicable for all generations, we will need to turn to the Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and the Sunnah of his Messenger for an answer. In the absence of the physical presence of the Prophet (s) when it comes to resolving the dispute via the Qur’an and Sunnah then that responsibility will fall on to the shoulders of the third category of Ul’il Amr the Fuquha (scholars of Deen). In theory this third group should be able to resolve the impasse between the first two groups by ruling in accordance with the dictates of the Qur’an and Sunnah. Sadly, when we put theory in to practice in Muslim countries such as Pakistan we see that the Ulema are themselves participants in politics and divided across political affiliation, they also have different understanding / interpretations of the Qur’an and Sunnah (that includes Hadith that contradict one another). Indeed the greatest amount of division that has occurred is in relation to this catergory of Ul’il Amr, beautifully identified by Waheedudeen Zaman Khan who writes:

“It is the same state of affairs for today’s Muslims is that they do not have an Imam, who they will all agree on obeying. In accepting him every Sect has appointed their own Maulana / Spiritual Guide, they don

’t listen to anyone else”

Tayseer al Bari Sharh Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9 page 149

 

 

If Imam Ali and Abu Bakr are both Khalifas, how can both Govern at the same time when Ali (as) never was given the chance to govern, thanks you Abu bakr.

 

Renowned grand Mufti Muhammad Shafi (Late) father of Justice Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani states:

 

“Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Hasan Basri and the Tafseer scholars, have said that Wali al Amr refers to the scholars of Fiqh, they are the representatives of the Prophet, and the administeration of the Deen is in their hands…One group of Tafseer scholars, that includes Abu Hurrayra says Wali al Amar refers to principles and power, one who runs the State”
Tafsir Maarif al Qur’an Volume 2 page 450

 

He then cites the third option…

 

 

statement:

So if we have Allah ( swt ) quran and prophet pbuh hadith to refer to why would we need an INFALLIABLE IMAMS?? Don't we have quran and hadith to refer to.
Why has Allah not given ulil amr the same authority regarding being referred to??

 

Reply: I gave you clear Ahadith that the prophet (pbuh) said: I have left in you two things, The book of Allah and MY AHLULBAYT.
Please refer back to the previous post.


 

 

….Tafseer Ibn Katheer and Tafseer Mazhari state it refers to both Ulema and Leader, since power is administered by both”.
Tafsir Maarif al Qur’an Volume 2 page 452

 

Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi said it referred to both but is this logical? History is replete with examples of difference between the scholars and the State Leader, in fact the Sunni’s cannot agree on the Wali al Amr at one particular time, we cite the comments Muhammad Ameen Minhaas who is writing on the failure of Islamic parties:

 

“The first portion of Surah Nisa refers the Wali al Amr that has not been acted on for centuries even though the Qur’an is applicable to all times, Islam does not allow you to ignore it, although it is happening, . Today’s Ummah needs to recognise the concept of the Wali al Amr, and should accordingly obey him”
Pyaam Magazine Edition 199 [islamabad]

 

_________________________________________________________________________________

 

statement:

If khamenei messes up you do just what us SUNNIS did, refer it back to Allah and prophet ( pbuh) which is what we are instructed to do in verse 4:59 so why does the ulil amr have to be infalliable if we have to refer it back to Allah ( swt ) and prophet ( pbuh )??? Quran and hadith.

 

Why do you repeat the same Question, Sayed Ali Al Khamenei as I explained (It seems you don't read at all), He is not an IMAM of the world, he is just an Alem and a leader of a country, Khamenei of course thim self believes in the 12 Imams (ulualmar). Please stop Spamming the same Question.

 


This Arguement is baseless friend.
you did not reply to my Question and yet you repeat the same.
_______________________________________

if your going to refute every Hadith. than do not bother.
You still have not replied to my topic that I made,
Second of All you have not replied to the hard evidenet proof I provided,
you repeat the same Q and A over and over.

Wa Al Salam

 

 

Infact No need to reply at All.
 

Wa Al salam.


statement:

You are MASSIVELY MISUNDERSTANDING the meaning of AHLE BAYT. AHLE BAYT is not exclusively only those who were immediately born after prophet pbuh or while prophet was alive. AHLE BAYT are all descendants of ali and fatimah. If AHLE BAYT are born straight after the leader then is prophet Muhammad NOT part of Ibrahim a.s AHLE BAYT ????
 

And your telling me that you have read?

Abu Ja'far MuhammadBin Ali, entitled Sheikh Saduq, in the fourth century A.H. inhis Uyun-e-Akbar ar-Riza (Major Sources for Riza), and Abu MansurBin Ali Tabarsi, in his Ehtijajj (Supports) give a detailed accountof the conversation that took place between Harun ar-Rashid andImam Musa Ja'far in the caliph's court. The caliph asked the Imam,"How can you claim that you are a descendant of the HolyProphet? The Prophet Muhammad had no descendant. It is acknowledgedthat descendants are from the male side and not from the femaleside. You belong to the generation of his daughter." TheImam recited verses 84-85 from Chapter VI of the Holy Qur'an:"And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob; each did We guide, andNoah did We guide before, and of his descendants David and Solomonand Job and Joseph and Aaron; and thus do We reward those whodo good. And Zakariyya and John and Jesus and Elias; every onewas of the good." (6:84-85)
 

The Imam asked the caliph: "Who was Jesus's father?"Harun replied that Jesus had no father. The Imam said: "Therewas no one, and yet Allah included Jesus in the progeny of theprophets through Mary. Similarly, He has included us in the progenyof the holy Prophet through our ancestor Bibi Fatima." Moreover,Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi, in his Tafsir-e-Kabir (Great Commentary),Bk IV, P. 124, Problem V, says regarding this verse that the verseproves that Hasan and Husain are the descendants of the Prophetof Islam. Since in this verse God has verified Jesus as a descendantof Abraham, and Jesus had no father, this relationship is fromthe side of the mother. In the same manner, Hasan and Husain aretruly the descendants of the Prophet. Imam Musa Kazim asked Harunif he wanted further proof. The caliph asked the Imam to continue.The Imam read verse 60 from Chapter III, "Al-e-Imran,"of the Holy Qur'an: "But whoever disputes with you in thismatter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: come,let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your womenand our selves and your selves, then let us be earnest in prayerand pray for the curse of Allah on the liars." (3:61)

 

He continued, saying that no one has ever claimed that on theoccasion of the spiritual contest (Mubahala) against the Christiansof Najran that the Prophet took with him anyone except Ali BinAbu Talib, Fatima, Hasan, and Husain. It follows, therefore that"selves" (anfusana) means Ali Bin Abi Talib. "Women"(nisa'ana) means Fatima and "sons" (abna'ana) meansHasan and Husain whom Allah has identified as the Prophet's ownsons. Upon hearing this argument, Harun exclaimed, "Bravo,O Abu'l-Hasan." Clearly, this reasoning proves that Hasanand Husain are the sons of the Prophet and that the Sa'dat Fatima(descendants of Bibi Fatima) are of the progeny of the holy Prophet.

 

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, one of your greatest scholars, in hisSharh-i-Nahju'l-Balagha (Commentary on the Peak of Eloquence [writingsof Commander of the Faithful, Ali]), and Abu Bakr Razi in hiscommentary, have cited the same verse, arguing that Hasan andHusain are, from the side of their mother, the sons of the holyProphet in the same way that Allah in the Holy Qur'an has includedChrist in the progeny of Abraham from the side of his mother,Mary.

 

Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, in his book Kifayatu't-Talib,and Ibn Hajar Makki on pages 74 and 93 of Sawa'iq Muhariqa fromTabrani and Jabir Bin Abdullah Ansari, and Khatib Khawarizmi inManaqib from Ibn Abbas - all relate that the Prophet said: "Allahcreated the progeny of every Prophet from his own generation,but my progeny was created in the generation of Ali." AlsoKhatib-e-Khawarizmi in Manaqib, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani Shafi'iin Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, in Musnad, and SulaymanHanafi Balkhi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda relate, in more or less thesame words, that the holy Prophet said: "These, my two sons,are two flowers of this world, and both of them are Imams (leaders),whether they are Imams openly or silently sitting at home."And Sheikh Sulayman Hanafi, in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, devotesChapter 57 to this topic and cites many hadith from his own learnedmen, like Tabrani, Hafiz Abdu'l-Aziz Ibn Abi Shaiba, Khatib-e-BaghdadiHakim, Baihaqi, Baghawi and Tabari - all relating in slightlydiffering versions that Hasan and Husain are the sons of the Prophet.

 

Towards the end of the same Chapter, Abu Salih writes : HafizAbdu'l-Aziz Bin Al-Akhzar, Abu Nu'aim, Tabari, Ibn Hajar Makkion page 112 of Sawa'iq Muhriqa, from Muhammad Bin Yusuf GanjiShafi'i at the end of Part I after 100 Chapters of Kifayatu't-Talib,and Tabari in the narration of the life of Imam Hasan relatesthat the second caliph, Umar Bin Khattab, said: "I heardthe Prophet say that on the Day of Judgement every ancestry willbe disconnected except my generation. Every generation of a daughteris from the father's side except the generation of Fatima, whichis connected with me. I am their father and ancestor." SheikhAbdullah Bin Muhammad Bin Amir Shabrawi Shafi'i, in his book Kitabu'l-Ittihafbi Hubbi'l-Ashraf, quoted this hadith from Baihaqi and Darqutnifrom Abdullah Bin Umar, and he from his father, on the occasionof the wedding of Umme Kulthum. And Jalalu'd-din Suyuti quotingfrom Tabrani in his Ausat, has related from Caliph Umar and SeyyedAbu Bakr Bin Shahabu'd-din Alawi on pages 39-42 of Chapter IIIof Rishfatu's-sadi min Bahra Faza'il Bani Nabiu'l-Hadi (printedin Maktabi A'lamiyya, Egypt in the year 1303 A.H.), proving thatthe descendants of Fatima are of the progeny of the Prophet ofIslam.

 

Hence, the couplet that you quoted has no force in the face ofall this contrary evidence. Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i,in his "Kifayatu't Talib," proves that the sons of theProphet's daughter are the sons of the holy Prophet. Our ancestralline goes back to Imam Husain; we are, therefore, descendantsof the Prophet.


statement:

: did you know the date of your imam BEFORE OR AFTER he was born???

 

Reply: Please read my post about Imam MAhdi (As) that i made for you.
When are you going to provide some real answers?

He was born on the 15th Shaban 255 A.H. in the city of Samarra.

 

First Heavenly concealment: 8th of Rabi-ul-Awwal, 260 A.H.

Final Heavenly concealment: 10th of Shawwal, 328 A.H.

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statement.

3. I am nobody to offer you tafsir my brother/sister.

Firstly he is not our HIGHEST tafsir ulama. Believe me I do read a lot more than you.

Reply: Mashalla, Would you like to give us the books of your tafsir, so that we may read them and perhaps even learn. In this case Qurtbabi

,ib Kahtir, ect, are worth nothing in your scales, yet most Sunni's accept them as the the highest Tafsir. Very Good answer. You ignore my answer,

and asnwer me back with no proof what so ever. Very Amazed are we? Most of the Ahadith are no copied and pasted, also concerning your conclusion that we

continue to read the verse...O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." I have given you a very solid reason on that he left his Ahlulbayt, Incharge of Ummah, and I also gave Sahih Hadith, which till today you have'nt answered. Where is your refutation? Rebutation? I'm kindly. Waiting. Sorry, I tought you knew Arabic? No? urdu? No? I even attached english Proof. Please go back and try to make a proper statement. Whilst these two categories (political leadership and army leadership) should work in co-ordination with one another through an atmosphere of mutual respect an understanding of their separate roles and responsibilities, what should happen in the eventuality of a dispute arising between the two groups? The answer is provided for us in the second portion of Surah Nisa verses 059:

YUSUFALI: … If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Since we can’t physically refer to Allah and his Prophet (s) and this verse is applicable for all generations, we will need to turn to the Book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and the Sunnah of his Messenger for an answer. In the absence of the physical presence of the Prophet (s) when it comes to resolving the dispute via the Qur’an and Sunnah then that responsibility will fall on to the shoulders of the third category of Ul’il Amr the Fuquha (scholars of Deen). In theory this third group should be able to resolve the impasse between the first two groups by ruling in accordance with the dictates of the Qur’an and Sunnah. Sadly, when we put theory in to practice in Muslim countries such as Pakistan we see that the Ulema are themselves participants in politics and divided across political affiliation, they also have different understanding / interpretations of the Qur’an and Sunnah (that includes Hadith that contradict one another). Indeed the greatest amount of division that has occurred is in relation to this catergory of Ul’il Amr, beautifully identified by Waheedudeen Zaman Khan who writes:

“It is the same state of affairs for today’s Muslims is that they do not have an Imam, who they will all agree on obeying. In accepting him every Sect has appointed their own Maulana / Spiritual Guide, they don

’t listen to anyone else”

Tayseer al Bari Sharh Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9 page 149

If Imam Ali and Abu Bakr are both Khalifas, how can both Govern at the same time when Ali (as) never was given the chance to govern, thanks you Abu bakr.

Renowned grand Mufti Muhammad Shafi (Late) father of Justice Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani states:

“Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Hasan Basri and the Tafseer scholars, have said that Wali al Amr refers to the scholars of Fiqh, they are the representatives of the Prophet, and the administeration of the Deen is in their hands…One group of Tafseer scholars, that includes Abu Hurrayra says Wali al Amar refers to principles and power, one who runs the State”

Tafsir Maarif al Qur’an Volume 2 page 450

He then cites the third option…

statement:

So if we have Allah ( swt ) quran and prophet pbuh hadith to refer to why would we need an INFALLIABLE IMAMS?? Don't we have quran and hadith to refer to.

Why has Allah not given ulil amr the same authority regarding being referred to??

Reply: I gave you clear Ahadith that the prophet (pbuh) said: I have left in you two things, The book of Allah and MY AHLULBAYT.

Please refer back to the previous post.

….Tafseer Ibn Katheer and Tafseer Mazhari state it refers to both Ulema and Leader, since power is administered by both”.

Tafsir Maarif al Qur’an Volume 2 page 452

Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi said it referred to both but is this logical? History is replete with examples of difference between the scholars and the State Leader, in fact the Sunni’s cannot agree on the Wali al Amr at one particular time, we cite the comments Muhammad Ameen Minhaas who is writing on the failure of Islamic parties:

“The first portion of Surah Nisa refers the Wali al Amr that has not been acted on for centuries even though the Qur’an is applicable to all times, Islam does not allow you to ignore it, although it is happening, . Today’s Ummah needs to recognise the concept of the Wali al Amr, and should accordingly obey him”

Pyaam Magazine Edition 199 [islamabad]

_________________________________________________________________________________

statement:

If khamenei messes up you do just what us SUNNIS did, refer it back to Allah and prophet ( pbuh) which is what we are instructed to do in verse 4:59 so why does the ulil amr have to be infalliable if we have to refer it back to Allah ( swt ) and prophet ( pbuh )??? Quran and hadith.

Why do you repeat the same Question, Sayed Ali Al Khamenei as I explained (It seems you don't read at all), He is not an IMAM of the world, he is just an Alem and a leader of a country, Khamenei of course thim self believes in the 12 Imams (ulualmar). Please stop Spamming the same Question.

This Arguement is baseless friend.

you did not reply to my Question and yet you repeat the same.

_______________________________________

if your going to refute every Hadith. than do not bother.

You still have not replied to my topic that I made,

Second of All you have not replied to the hard evidenet proof I provided,

you repeat the same Q and A over and over.

Wa Al Salam

Infact No need to reply at All.

Wa Al salam.

statement:

You are MASSIVELY MISUNDERSTANDING the meaning of AHLE BAYT. AHLE BAYT is not exclusively only those who were immediately born after prophet pbuh or while prophet was alive. AHLE BAYT are all descendants of ali and fatimah. If AHLE BAYT are born straight after the leader then is prophet Muhammad NOT part of Ibrahim a.s AHLE BAYT ????

And your telling me that you have read?

Abu Ja'far MuhammadBin Ali, entitled Sheikh Saduq, in the fourth century A.H. inhis Uyun-e-Akbar ar-Riza (Major Sources for Riza), and Abu MansurBin Ali Tabarsi, in his Ehtijajj (Supports) give a detailed accountof the conversation that took place between Harun ar-Rashid andImam Musa Ja'far in the caliph's court. The caliph asked the Imam,"How can you claim that you are a descendant of the HolyProphet? The Prophet Muhammad had no descendant. It is acknowledgedthat descendants are from the male side and not from the femaleside. You belong to the generation of his daughter." TheImam recited verses 84-85 from Chapter VI of the Holy Qur'an:"And We gave to him Isaac and Jacob; each did We guide, andNoah did We guide before, and of his descendants David and Solomonand Job and Joseph and Aaron; and thus do We reward those whodo good. And Zakariyya and John and Jesus and Elias; every onewas of the good." (6:84-85)

The Imam asked the caliph: "Who was Jesus's father?"Harun replied that Jesus had no father. The Imam said: "Therewas no one, and yet Allah included Jesus in the progeny of theprophets through Mary. Similarly, He has included us in the progenyof the holy Prophet through our ancestor Bibi Fatima." Moreover,Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi, in his Tafsir-e-Kabir (Great Commentary),Bk IV, P. 124, Problem V, says regarding this verse that the verseproves that Hasan and Husain are the descendants of the Prophetof Islam. Since in this verse God has verified Jesus as a descendantof Abraham, and Jesus had no father, this relationship is fromthe side of the mother. In the same manner, Hasan and Husain aretruly the descendants of the Prophet. Imam Musa Kazim asked Harunif he wanted further proof. The caliph asked the Imam to continue.The Imam read verse 60 from Chapter III, "Al-e-Imran,"of the Holy Qur'an: "But whoever disputes with you in thismatter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: come,let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your womenand our selves and your selves, then let us be earnest in prayerand pray for the curse of Allah on the liars." (3:61)

He continued, saying that no one has ever claimed that on theoccasion of the spiritual contest (Mubahala) against the Christiansof Najran that the Prophet took with him anyone except Ali BinAbu Talib, Fatima, Hasan, and Husain. It follows, therefore that"selves" (anfusana) means Ali Bin Abi Talib. "Women"(nisa'ana) means Fatima and "sons" (abna'ana) meansHasan and Husain whom Allah has identified as the Prophet's ownsons. Upon hearing this argument, Harun exclaimed, "Bravo,O Abu'l-Hasan." Clearly, this reasoning proves that Hasanand Husain are the sons of the Prophet and that the Sa'dat Fatima(descendants of Bibi Fatima) are of the progeny of the holy Prophet.

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, one of your greatest scholars, in hisSharh-i-Nahju'l-Balagha (Commentary on the Peak of Eloquence [writingsof Commander of the Faithful, Ali]), and Abu Bakr Razi in hiscommentary, have cited the same verse, arguing that Hasan andHusain are, from the side of their mother, the sons of the holyProphet in the same way that Allah in the Holy Qur'an has includedChrist in the progeny of Abraham from the side of his mother,Mary.

Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, in his book Kifayatu't-Talib,and Ibn Hajar Makki on pages 74 and 93 of Sawa'iq Muhariqa fromTabrani and Jabir Bin Abdullah Ansari, and Khatib Khawarizmi inManaqib from Ibn Abbas - all relate that the Prophet said: "Allahcreated the progeny of every Prophet from his own generation,but my progeny was created in the generation of Ali." AlsoKhatib-e-Khawarizmi in Manaqib, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani Shafi'iin Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, in Musnad, and SulaymanHanafi Balkhi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda relate, in more or less thesame words, that the holy Prophet said: "These, my two sons,are two flowers of this world, and both of them are Imams (leaders),whether they are Imams openly or silently sitting at home."And Sheikh Sulayman Hanafi, in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, devotesChapter 57 to this topic and cites many hadith from his own learnedmen, like Tabrani, Hafiz Abdu'l-Aziz Ibn Abi Shaiba, Khatib-e-BaghdadiHakim, Baihaqi, Baghawi and Tabari - all relating in slightlydiffering versions that Hasan and Husain are the sons of the Prophet.

Towards the end of the same Chapter, Abu Salih writes : HafizAbdu'l-Aziz Bin Al-Akhzar, Abu Nu'aim, Tabari, Ibn Hajar Makkion page 112 of Sawa'iq Muhriqa, from Muhammad Bin Yusuf GanjiShafi'i at the end of Part I after 100 Chapters of Kifayatu't-Talib,and Tabari in the narration of the life of Imam Hasan relatesthat the second caliph, Umar Bin Khattab, said: "I heardthe Prophet say that on the Day of Judgement every ancestry willbe disconnected except my generation. Every generation of a daughteris from the father's side except the generation of Fatima, whichis connected with me. I am their father and ancestor." SheikhAbdullah Bin Muhammad Bin Amir Shabrawi Shafi'i, in his book Kitabu'l-Ittihafbi Hubbi'l-Ashraf, quoted this hadith from Baihaqi and Darqutnifrom Abdullah Bin Umar, and he from his father, on the occasionof the wedding of Umme Kulthum. And Jalalu'd-din Suyuti quotingfrom Tabrani in his Ausat, has related from Caliph Umar and SeyyedAbu Bakr Bin Shahabu'd-din Alawi on pages 39-42 of Chapter IIIof Rishfatu's-sadi min Bahra Faza'il Bani Nabiu'l-Hadi (printedin Maktabi A'lamiyya, Egypt in the year 1303 A.H.), proving thatthe descendants of Fatima are of the progeny of the Prophet ofIslam.

Hence, the couplet that you quoted has no force in the face ofall this contrary evidence. Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i,in his "Kifayatu't Talib," proves that the sons of theProphet's daughter are the sons of the holy Prophet. Our ancestralline goes back to Imam Husain; we are, therefore, descendantsof the Prophet.

I like the way you started from point 3, what's up points 1 and 2 causing you embarrassment??

I find it rather cool the way you pick and choose what you like to reply.

I asked you a golden question in point 3 yet you totally ignored

Also I've read tafsir and it does not mention 12 imams so what you talking about.

Refute my answer I gave you regarding ali r.a harun (a.s) if you can you bought evidence from quran I REFUTED you now you refute me if you can

Refute all the points I made why pick and choose??

Regarding ijma I don't know whether you know or not but ijma is in quran and we SUNNIS use ijma

Till this day you haven't been able to give me 1 verse where Allah says in the quran that he will appoint imams for this ummah

Edited by Just the truth

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Coi

 

I like the way you started from point 3, what's up points 1 and 2 causing you embarrassment??

I find it rather cool the way you pick and choose what you like to reply.

I asked you a golden question in point 3 yet you totally ignored

 

accusing me of Copying and pasting in natrual for somone who already ignored his books.

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Hold up. You asked me for evidence regarding SHURA/ ijma and I gave it to you so let's take a step back...

Do you now believe that ijma exists in quran/islam??

Answer that first

 

No, Ijma does not exist in the Qur'an, there is not one reference in the Qur'an that tells us to elect a successor or to change Shariah or to alter Usool.

 

Even if 100% of the Ummah got together in Ijma and say "We will only do Salat once per year" that is unIslamic.

 

If 100% of the Ummah got together and say "Abu BAkr is successor" that is Ijma and unIslamic.

 

Ijma, in this sense of course, does not exist in Islam.

 

I'm not saying that humans cannot get together to talk, obviously there is no magical barrier preventing Abu Bakr from talking privately with Omar, but the validity of their Ijma in this scenario is un-Islamic.

 

It is the same as if I say there is no evidence for the validity of Shirk in Islam... and you say but shirk is mentioned in the Qur'an... It doesn't matter if it is mentioned, the context has nothing to do with the statement regarding the validity of Shirk in Islam.  Just because Shirk is mentioned in Islam, does not mean that Islam allows polytheism or shirk of any kind.

 

Similarly, the context of Ijma in our discussion has been the successorship, and there is no evidence that Ijma is allowed or Islamic in any way with this.

 

You can do Ijma and decide whether you want to have steak or fish for dinner, that is fine, that has nothing to do with Islam.

 

But you cannot do Ijma to decide on salat, successor, Qiblah, prophets, or anything of the sort.

 

If you say that you can, then the burden of proof is on you.  That is why I asked you to show me where the Qur'an allows the Ummah to do Ijma to alter Islam.

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Now I wil contuniue with Aul Al mamr. According to us, the 'uli'l-amr' must be free from sin and infallible. And since no one except Allah can know the deep reality of the heart, the 'uli'l-amr' must be appointed by Allah. Thus Allah, Who ordains the prophets, also ordains the 'uli'l-amr:' An 'uli'l-amr' obviously must have the same attributes the Holy Prophet had.

 

In this holy verse the word ati'u (obey) has been used twice: He says, "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle." When He speaks of 'uli'l-amr,' He does not use the word 'ati'u' again but uses the conjunction 'and' with 'uli'l-amr.' Linking the words in this way it means that 'uli'l-amr' possess the same merit as the Holy Prophet possesses, except those which are peculiar to the Prophet alone, e.g. 'Wahi' (revelation), prophethood, etc. In short, the qualities of the Holy Prophet should be possessed by the 'uli'l-amr' except of course the rank of prophethood.

 

Accordingly, Shias believe that the words 'uli'l-amr' refer to the twelve Imams, that is Amiru'l-Mu'minin and his eleven descendants, the progeny of the Holy Prophet. This verse is one of the proofs of the Imamate of the twelve Imams.

 

Apart from this, there are many other verses supporting our point of view.

 

(1) For instance, the Holy Qur'an says: "He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men." Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant includes not the unjust, said He." (2:124)

 

(2) "The Prophet has a greater claim on the believers than they have on themselves and his wives are (as) their mothers; and blood relations have the better claim in respect of one to the other, according to the book of Allah than (other) believers or the emigrants." (33:6)

 

(3) "O you who believe! Fear Allah and be (always) with the truthful ones." (9:119)

 

(4) "You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people." (13:7)

 

(5) "And (know) that this is My path, the right one. Therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way. (6:153)

 

(6) "And of those whom we have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice." (7:181)

 

(7) "And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited." (3:103)

 

(8) "So ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know." (16:43)

 

(9) "Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you with a complete purification." (33:33)

 

(10) "Surely Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and the descendants of Imran above the nations. Offspring, one of the other."(3:33)

 

(11) "Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants." (35:32)

 

(12) "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, (and) the glass is, as it were, a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive tree, of neither the east or the West, the oil whereof nearly gives light, though fire touch it not." (24:35)

 

There are many other verses which could be quoted. Many of your prominent ulema have reported that the Holy Prophet said, "One fourth of the Holy Qur'an is in praise of the Ahle Bait."

 

Ibn Abbas is reported to have said, "More than 300 verses were revealed in praise of Ali."

 

Now, I come to my original point that the 'uli'l-amr' must be infallible because obedience to them is linked with obedience to Allah and the Holy Prophet.

 

Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi in his Tafsir admits that if we do not regard the 'uli'l-amr' as infallible, it would be, in effect, affirming two contradictions as being true. Your own ulema have confirmed that these qualities were possessed exclusively by the twelve Imams. The Holy verse of Purification (33:33) also confirms this fact.


Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.77, p.445 and Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain report that Ibn Abbas said: "I heard the Holy Prophet saying: ' I and Ali, Hasan, Husain and nine of the descendants of Husain are completely pure and infallible.'"

 

Salman Farsi says that the Holy Prophet, putting his hand on the shoulder of Husain, said: "He is the Imam and the son of the Imam, and of his descendants there will be nine Imams who will all be virtuous trustees of Allah."

 

Zaid Ibn Thabit reports that the Holy Prophet said: "Verily, of Husain's descendants will be born Imams who will be virtuous trustees, infallible judges."

 

Imran Ibn Hasin reports that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are heir to my knowledge. You are the Imam and Caliph after me. You will tell the people what they do not know. You are the father of my grandson and husband of my daughter. Of your descendants there will be infallible Imams."


It is equally absurd to suggest that obedience to a tyrant is compulsory. If it were, why do the Sunni ulema condemn the oppressive rulers and caliphs, like Mu'awiya, Yazid, the wicked Ziyad Ibn Abib, Ubaidullah, Hajjaj, Abu Salma, and Muslim.

 

If anyone claims that obedience to wicked rulers is compulsory (and some ulema have really said that), it would be quite contrary to the Qur'anic injunctions. Allah has frequently cursed sinners in the Holy Qur'an and has forbidden Muslims to obey them. So how is it possible that in this verse He would order us to obey sinners? Obviously, we cannot attribute two divergent orders to Allah Almighty. Hence, Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi clearly says regarding this holy verse that the 'uli'l-amr' must possess perfect integrity. Otherwise, Allah would not have linked our duty to obey them with our duty to obey Allah Himself and the Holy Prophet.


Please read Layali peshawar.


Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.77, p.445 and Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain report that Ibn Abbas said: "I heard the Holy Prophet saying: ' I and Ali, Hasan, Husain and nine of the descendants of Husain are completely pure and infallible.'"

 

Salman Farsi says that the Holy Prophet, putting his hand on the shoulder of Husain, said: "He is the Imam and the son of the Imam, and of his descendants there will be nine Imams who will all be virtuous trustees of Allah."

 

Zaid Ibn Thabit reports that the Holy Prophet said: "Verily, of Husain's descendants will be born Imams who will be virtuous trustees, infallible judges."

 

Imran Ibn Hasin reports that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are heir to my knowledge. You are the Imam and Caliph after me. You will tell the people what they do not know. You are the father of my grandson and husband of my daughter. Of your descendants there will be infallible Imams."


Abu Ishaq Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha report from Ibn Abbas that the Holy Prophet said: "My progeny have been created from the same seed from which I have been created. Allah Almighty has bestowed upon them knowledge and wisdom. Woe be to him who rejects them."

 

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha, and the author of Siratu's-Sahaba, report from Hudhaifa Bin Asaid that the Holy Prophet said: "I leave behind for you two weighty things: the book of Allah and my 'Ahle Bait.' If you attach yourselves to these two you will be rescued." Tabrani reports an addition: "Do not reject their authority; otherwise you shall be ruined. Do not show any disrespect toward them or ignore them, or else you shall be destroyed. Do not try to teach them because verily they know better than you do."

 

In other reports Hudhaifa Bin Asaid quotes the Holy Prophet as saying: "After me there will be Imams from my progeny. Their number will be equal to the number of Bani Isra'il's heralds, that is, twelve, of whom nine will be Husain's descendants. Allah has bestowed upon all of them my knowledge and wisdom. So do not teach them because surely they know better than you do. Follow them since they are definitely with truth, and truth is with them."

 

 

The ritual prayer is perhaps the central act of worship in a Muslim's life. The Holy Prophet emphasized its performance. He said: "The ritual prayer is the pillar and protector of religion. If the ritual prayer is accepted, all other religious performances will be accepted. If it is rejected, all other religious performances will also be rejected."

 

Of course, there is no mention in the Holy Qur'an of the number of units (rak'ats) to be performed for each prayer or any of the other specific details regarding how the prayers are to be performed. Does this mean that we should abandon the prayers? The Holy Qur'an simply says: "Establish salat (prayer). There are no details distinguishing required from optional acts. These were explained by the Holy Prophet.

 

In the same way other commands have been stated in the Holy Qur'an in principle only. Their details, conditions and relevant instructions were explained by the Holy Prophet. Similarly, concerning the Imamate and caliphate, the Holy Qur'an says only: "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those in authority among you." And we are bound to follow the Holy Prophet's order in this regard in the same way we follow his instructions with regard to the details of the ritual prayers.

 

Muslim commentators, whether Sunni or Shia, cannot make their own interpretations of the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Prophet said: "If someone gives his own interpretation of the Holy Qur'an, his place is Hell."

 

Accordingly, every sensible Muslim turns to the real interpreter of the Holy Qur'an, the Holy Prophet. For many years I have studied both Sunni and Shia Qur'anic commentary and hadith but have never come across a single hadith in which the Holy Prophet said that 'uli'l-amr' refers to political rulers. On the other hand, the books of both the Sunnis and Shias contain numerous reports that the Holy Prophet was asked to indicate the meaning of 'uli'l-amr' and he replied that 'uli'l-amr' referred to Ali and his eleven descendants. I will present only a few of these numerous hadith which have been narrated through sources accepted by Sunnis.


(1) Abu Ishaq Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini Ibrahim Bin Muhammad writes in his Fara'idu's-Simtain: "The Prophet told us that 'uli'l-amr' refers to Ali Bin Abi Talib and the Ahle Bait of the Holy Prophet."

 

(2) 'Isa Bin Yusuf Hamadani reports from Abu'l-Hasan and Salim Bin Qais, who report from Amiru'l-Mu'minin Ali that the Holy Prophet said: "My associates are those whose obedience has been linked by Almighty Allah with His own obedience. It is they to whom He refers when He says 'Those in authority from among you.' It is necessary that you not oppose what they say. You should obey them and follow their orders." Amiru'l-Mu'minin goes on to say, "When I heard this, I said: "O Prophet, let me know who the 'uli'l-amr' are." The Prophet said: "O Ali! You are the first of them."

 

(3) Muhammad Bin Mu'min Shirazi, one of the most eminent Sunni religious scholars, writes in his Risala-e-I'tiqadat that when the Holy Prophet appointed Amiru'l-Mu'minin his representative in Medina, the verse "uli'l-amr-e-Minkum" (And those in authority from among you) was revealed in reference to Ali Bin Abi Talib.

 

(4) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Ch.38, reports from Manaqib that it is stated in Tafsir-e-Mujahid that this verse was revealed in reference to Amiru'l-Mu'minin when the Prophet appointed him as his representative in Medina. The Holy Imam said: "O Holy Prophet of Allah! Have you appointed me Caliph over women and children?" Then the Holy Prophet said: "Are you not content that you have the same relation to me as Aaron had to Moses?"

 

(5) Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini reports Salim Bin Qais Hilali as saying the following: During Uthman's caliphate, I saw some Muhajirs and Ansars sitting together praising themselves. Ali was silent among them. The people asked Ali to speak. He said: "Do you not know that the Holy Prophet said: 'I and my Ahle Bait were one light, which existed in His creation 14,000 years before the creation of Adam? When He created Adam, He placed that light in his spine when he came down to the earth. Then He placed it in Noah in his ark; then in Abraham's spine while he was in the fire; similarly in the pure spines of fathers and in the pure wombs of mothers, none of whom were born unlawfully." Those in the group who were foremost in the battles of Badr and Hunain said: "Yes, we have heard these words." Then Ali said, "Tell me on oath whether you know that in the Holy Qur'an Allah has given preference to the foremost ones,

and that in Islam no one equals me in merit." They said, "Yes, we acknowledge this."

 

Then Ali recited from the Holy Qur'an: "And the foremost are the foremost; these are they who are drawn nigh (to Allah)." (56:10-11) He said: "When this verse was revealed, the people asked the Holy Prophet who were the foremost ones, and about whom the verse was revealed. Now tell me on oath if you know that the Holy Prophet told them that Allah Almighty revealed this verse about the prophets and their vicegerents. I am foremost among all the prophets and Ali, my wasi (vicegerent) is foremost among all the vicegerents?"

 

Then Ali said: "The Holy Qur'an tells us, 'Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and those vested with authority from among you' (4:59) and the verse 'Verily, verily your guardian is (none else but) Allah and His Prophet (Muhammad) and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate, while bowing down (in prayer).' (5:55) and the verse 'have not taken anyone as an adherent besides Allah and His Apostle and the believers.' (9:16) Allah subsequently ordered His Holy Prophet to identify who was meant by the words 'uli'l-amr' (those vested with authority) in the same way as the ritual prayer, fasting and the Hajj had been clarified. Accordingly, at Ghadir-e-Khum the Holy Prophet appointed me over the people and declared: 'O people when Almighty Allah commissioned me to prophethood I felt apprehension that people would oppose me.'

 

Then the Holy Prophet continued: 'O people, do you know that Allah Most High is my Master? I enjoy more mastery over the selves of the believers than they have over themselves?'

 

When all confirmed that it was so, the Holy Prophet announced: 'Of whomsoever I am the master, Ali is his master; O Allah be a friend of him who is a friend of Ali and be an enemy of him who is an enemy of Ali.'

 

Then Salman stood up and asked: 'O Holy Prophet what is the significance of Ali's mastery?' The Holy Prophet replied: 'Ali's mastery is like my own mastery. Of whomsoever I am the master Ali is also his master.'

 

Then the verse was revealed: 'This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.' (5:3) Thereupon the Holy Prophet said: 'Allah is Great, Who has perfected the religion, completed His favor upon me, and is satisfied with my prophethood and is satisfied with Ali being the vicegerent after me.'"

 

This hadith confirms those hadith which I related during past nights to show that 'master' connotes complete mastery over more than one's own.

 

"The people then said: 'O Holy Prophet tell us the names of your vicegerents.' The Holy Prophet said: 'They are Ali, who is my brother, my successor, and my vicegerent and the master of every believer after me; then his son, Hasan, then Husain, then nine successive sons of Husain. The Holy Qur'an is with them and they are with the Holy Qur'an. They will not separate from it, and it will not separate from them until they reach me at the Pool of Kauthar.'"

 

After recording the full report, he has recorded three other reports from Manaqib narrated by Salim Bin Qais, Isa Bin Sirri, and Ibn Mu'awiya showing that the words 'uli'l-amr' refer to the twelve Imams of the 'Ahle Bait.'

 

I believe that the above reports are enough to clarify the real meaning of 'uli'l-amr.' As for the number and names of the Holy Imams, I will relate hadith narrated by eminent Sunni scholars, without referring, as has been my practice, to the many reports by Shia scholars.


(1) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.76, reports from Fara'idu's-Simtain of Hamwaini, who reports from Mujahid, who reports from Ibn Abbas, that a Jew named Na'thal came to the Holy Prophet and asked him questions about Tawhid (Unity of Allah). The Holy Prophet answered his questions and the Jew embraced Islam. Then he said: "O Holy Prophet, every prophet had a wasi (vicegerent). Our Prophet, Moses Bin Imran, made a will for Yusha Bin Nun. Please tell me who is your wasi?" The Holy Prophet said: "My vicegerent is Ali Bin Abi Talib; after him are Hasan, and Husain and after them are nine Imams, who are the successive descendants of Husain."

 

Na'thal asked the Holy Prophet the names of those Imams. The Holy Prophet said: "After Husain, his son, Ali, will be the Imam; after him his son, Muhammad; after him his son, Ja'far; after him his son Musa; after him his son, Ali; after him his son, Muhammad; after him his son, Hasan; after him his son, Muhammad Mahdi will be the last Imam. There will be twelve Imams."

 

In addition to the names of the nine Imams, this hadith further states that each would succeed as Imam after his father. Na'thal made further inquiries, and the Holy Prophet described the manner of death of each Imam.

 

Then Na'thal said, "I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and that you are His Holy Prophet. I bear witness that these twelve holy Imams are your vicegerents after you. What you have said is exactly what is recorded in our books and in the will of Moses."

 

Then the Holy Prophet said: "Paradise is for him who loves them and obeys them, and Hell is for him who is hostile to them and opposes them."

 

Na'thal then recited some couplets to the effect that "May Allah, the Exalted, shower His blessings upon you, chosen Prophet and pride of the Bani Hashim. Allah has guided us by means of you and the twelve holy men whom you have named. Certainly Allah has purified them and preserved them from impurity. He who loves them is successful. He who hates them is the loser. The last of the Imams will quench the thirst of the thirsty. He is the one the people will wait for. Prophet of Allah, your progeny is a blessing for me and for all the believers. Those who turn away from them will soon be thrown into Hell."

 

(2) The great scholar, Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi, in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch. 76 reports from Manaqib of Khawarizmi, who reports from Wathila Bin Asqa' Bin Qarkhab, who reports Jabir Bin Abdullah Ansari; and also Abu'l-Fazl Shaibani and he from Muhammad Bin Abdullah Bin Ibrahim Shafi'i, who reports Jabir Ansari (one of the chief companions of the Prophet) as saying: "Jundal Bin Junadab Bin Jubair, a Jew, came to the Holy Prophet and asked him about Tawhid. After hearing his reply, the man became a Muslim. He said that on the previous night he had seen Moses in a dream telling him: 'Embrace Islam at the hands of the last of the prophets, Muhammad, and attach yourself to the vicegerents after him.' He thanked Allah for the blessing of Islam. He then asked the Holy Prophet to tell him the names of his vicegerents. The Holy Prophet began by saying: 'My vicegerents are twelve in number.'

 

The man said that he had seen this fact in the Torah. He asked the Prophet to tell him their names, and the Prophet said: 'The first of them is the chief of the vicegerents, the father of the Imams, Ali. Then follow his two sons - Hasan and Husain. You shall see these three. When you reach the last stage of your life, Imam Zainu'l-Abidin will be born, and the last thing that you have of this world shall be milk. So cling to them so that ignorance may not mislead you.'

 

The man said that he had seen in the Torah and in other scriptures the names of Ali, Hasan, and Husain as Elias, Shabbar, and Shabbir. He asked the Holy Prophet to tell him the names of the other Imams.

 

Then the Holy Prophet named the remaining nine Imams with their epithets and added: 'The last of them, Muhammad Mahdi, will live, but disappear. He will appear later and will fill the world with justice and equity, since it will have degenerated into injustice and tyranny. Verily, Paradise is for those who show patience during the time of his occultation. Paradise is for those who are firm in their love for him. These are they whom Allah Almighty has praised in the Holy Qur'an and for whom the Holy Qur'an is a 'guide for those who guard (against evil). Those who believe in the unseen.' Also He says 'These are Allah's

 

 

Mir Seyyed Ali Shafi'i Hamadani in his Mawaddatu'l Qurba, (Mawadda XIII), reports that Umar Bin Qais said: "We were sitting in a group in which Abdullah Bin Mas'ud was also present. Suddenly an Arab came and said: "Who among you is Abdullah? Abdullah said: "I am." He said: "Abdullah! Did the Holy Prophet tell you about the caliphs after him?"

 

Abdullah Bin Mas'ud said, "Yes, the Prophet said: 'After me there will be twelve caliphs, corresponding to the number of the Imams of the Bani Isra'il.'"

 

The same hadith has also been reported from Sha'bi, who reported it from Masruq, who reported it from Abdullah Shiba.

 

Also Jurair, Ash'ath, Abdullah Bin Mas'ud, Abdullah Bin Umar, and Jubair Bin Samra all report the Holy Prophet as saying: "There will be twelve caliphs after me. Their number will correspond to the number of the caliphs of the Bani Isra'il." According to Abdu'l-Malik's report, the Holy Prophet added: "And all of them will be from the Bani Hashim."

 

Most Sunni ulema, including Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Muslim, Sha'bi have reported the same thing.

 

Yahya Bin Hasan, a great scholar of jurisprudence, has reported in his Kitab-e-Umda from twenty different sources, that "Verily, there are twelve caliphs after the Holy Prophet, and all of them belong to the Quraish." Bukhari has reported from three sources, Muslim from nine sources, Ali Dawud from three sources, Tirmidhi from one source, and Hamid from three sources that the Holy Prophet said: "The caliphs and Imams after me are twelve, and all of them are from the Quraish." According to some reports, the Holy Prophet said: "All of them are from the Bani Hashim."

 

On page 446 Yahya Bin Hasan says: "Some of the scholars have said that hadith in support of the view that the number of the caliphs and Imams after the Holy Prophet is twelve are commonly known. Everyone knows that when the Holy Prophet specified the number of his caliphs to be twelve, he meant that they would belong to his 'Ahle Bait,' To say that he meant the caliphs who were his companions would be incompatible with the facts (since there were only four).

 

Nor can it be said that he meant the Umayyad kings, of whom there were thirteen. Moreover, they were all tyrants except Umar Bin Abdu'l-Aziz, (although even he usurped the caliphate and forced the Imam of the time to remain confined in his house). Since the Holy Prophet had said: "They are all from the Bani Hashim," the Bani Umayyads are not to be included.

 

So it is clear that the rightful caliphs of the Holy Prophet were the twelve Imams who were descendants of the Holy Prophet and who excelled all others in knowledge and piety. This fact is confirmed by this consecutively narrated hadith of the Holy Prophet. "I leave behind me two great things, the Holy Book of Allah (the Holy Qur'an) and my 'Ahle Bait.' If you are attached to these two, never, never, shall you go astray after me. Verily, these two shall never be separated from one another until they meet me at the Pool of Kauthar. If you are attached to these two, you will never be misled."

 

The Holy Prophet said: "Seek knowledge even in China." We have spent ten long nights discussing issues concerning a precious knowledge - the way of Islam. We have seen many differences between the Sunni and Shia sects, and we hope that historical fact and reason have clarified the nature of the differences. If Allah wills, these discussions will convince sincere seekers of knowledge that "Whom Allah guides, no one can lead astray."
 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Sunni Islam proposes that Allah and Muhammad left the Ummah without any guidance or successor after his death.

 

They believe they must take matters into their own hands and decide on leadership.

 

Look at where that got them!

 

Civil war, fitnah, only FOUR "Rightly Guided Caliphs" all of whom were alive at the time Muhammad died, so it's not even like a proper dynasty...

 

So your Ijma and consensus worked really well for Islam, that's why all of the Caliphs after Ali were a bunch of corrupt lying pagans.

 

So Ijma works so well that all of the Muslim countries are torn with strife and civil unrest, confusion, fitnah, various sects...

 

Abu Bakr did a great job! Would you elect him and do all of this all over again?

 

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, if the 'Ulul Amr, Ali ibn abu Talib were to take over and Abu Bakr just sit aside and not mess things up like a bull in a china shop, JUST MAYBE things would be different and people wouldn't make cartoons making fun of Muhammad, and terrorists wouldn't kill school children in the name of Islam?

 

MAYBE.

 

But definitely if we elect Abu Bakr all over again then all of this will just repeat itself.

 

So you're defending one of the greatest trainwrecks in the history of the world... 

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Now I wil contuniue with Aul Al mamr. According to us, the 'uli'l-amr' must be free from sin and infallible. And since no one except Allah can know the deep reality of the heart, the 'uli'l-amr' must be appointed by Allah. Thus Allah, Who ordains the prophets, also ordains the 'uli'l-amr:' An 'uli'l-amr' obviously must have the same attributes the Holy Prophet had.

In this holy verse the word ati'u (obey) has been used twice: He says, "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle." When He speaks of 'uli'l-amr,' He does not use the word 'ati'u' again but uses the conjunction 'and' with 'uli'l-amr.' Linking the words in this way it means that 'uli'l-amr' possess the same merit as the Holy Prophet possesses, except those which are peculiar to the Prophet alone, e.g. 'Wahi' (revelation), prophethood, etc. In short, the qualities of the Holy Prophet should be possessed by the 'uli'l-amr' except of course the rank of prophethood.

Accordingly, Shias believe that the words 'uli'l-amr' refer to the twelve Imams, that is Amiru'l-Mu'minin and his eleven descendants, the progeny of the Holy Prophet. This verse is one of the proofs of the Imamate of the twelve Imams.

Apart from this, there are many other verses supporting our point of view.

(1) For instance, the Holy Qur'an says: "He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men." Abraham said: And of my offspring? My covenant includes not the unjust, said He." (2:124)

(2) "The Prophet has a greater claim on the believers than they have on themselves and his wives are (as) their mothers; and blood relations have the better claim in respect of one to the other, according to the book of Allah than (other) believers or the emigrants." (33:6)

(3) "O you who believe! Fear Allah and be (always) with the truthful ones." (9:119)

(4) "You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people." (13:7)

(5) "And (know) that this is My path, the right one. Therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way. (6:153)

(6) "And of those whom we have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice." (7:181)

(7) "And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited." (3:103)

(8) "So ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know." (16:43)

(9) "Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you with a complete purification." (33:33)

(10) "Surely Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and the descendants of Imran above the nations. Offspring, one of the other."(3:33)

(11) "Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants." (35:32)

(12) "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp in a glass, (and) the glass is, as it were, a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive tree, of neither the east or the West, the oil whereof nearly gives light, though fire touch it not." (24:35)

There are many other verses which could be quoted. Many of your prominent ulema have reported that the Holy Prophet said, "One fourth of the Holy Qur'an is in praise of the Ahle Bait."

Ibn Abbas is reported to have said, "More than 300 verses were revealed in praise of Ali."

Now, I come to my original point that the 'uli'l-amr' must be infallible because obedience to them is linked with obedience to Allah and the Holy Prophet.

Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi in his Tafsir admits that if we do not regard the 'uli'l-amr' as infallible, it would be, in effect, affirming two contradictions as being true. Your own ulema have confirmed that these qualities were possessed exclusively by the twelve Imams. The Holy verse of Purification (33:33) also confirms this fact.

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.77, p.445 and Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain report that Ibn Abbas said: "I heard the Holy Prophet saying: ' I and Ali, Hasan, Husain and nine of the descendants of Husain are completely pure and infallible.'"

Salman Farsi says that the Holy Prophet, putting his hand on the shoulder of Husain, said: "He is the Imam and the son of the Imam, and of his descendants there will be nine Imams who will all be virtuous trustees of Allah."

Zaid Ibn Thabit reports that the Holy Prophet said: "Verily, of Husain's descendants will be born Imams who will be virtuous trustees, infallible judges."

Imran Ibn Hasin reports that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are heir to my knowledge. You are the Imam and Caliph after me. You will tell the people what they do not know. You are the father of my grandson and husband of my daughter. Of your descendants there will be infallible Imams."

It is equally absurd to suggest that obedience to a tyrant is compulsory. If it were, why do the Sunni ulema condemn the oppressive rulers and caliphs, like Mu'awiya, Yazid, the wicked Ziyad Ibn Abib, Ubaidullah, Hajjaj, Abu Salma, and Muslim.

If anyone claims that obedience to wicked rulers is compulsory (and some ulema have really said that), it would be quite contrary to the Qur'anic injunctions. Allah has frequently cursed sinners in the Holy Qur'an and has forbidden Muslims to obey them. So how is it possible that in this verse He would order us to obey sinners? Obviously, we cannot attribute two divergent orders to Allah Almighty. Hence, Imam Fakhru'd-din Razi clearly says regarding this holy verse that the 'uli'l-amr' must possess perfect integrity. Otherwise, Allah would not have linked our duty to obey them with our duty to obey Allah Himself and the Holy Prophet.

Please read Layali peshawar.

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.77, p.445 and Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain report that Ibn Abbas said: "I heard the Holy Prophet saying: ' I and Ali, Hasan, Husain and nine of the descendants of Husain are completely pure and infallible.'"

Salman Farsi says that the Holy Prophet, putting his hand on the shoulder of Husain, said: "He is the Imam and the son of the Imam, and of his descendants there will be nine Imams who will all be virtuous trustees of Allah."

Zaid Ibn Thabit reports that the Holy Prophet said: "Verily, of Husain's descendants will be born Imams who will be virtuous trustees, infallible judges."

Imran Ibn Hasin reports that the Holy Prophet said to Ali: "You are heir to my knowledge. You are the Imam and Caliph after me. You will tell the people what they do not know. You are the father of my grandson and husband of my daughter. Of your descendants there will be infallible Imams."

Abu Ishaq Hamwaini in Fara'idu's-Simtain, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Ispahani in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha report from Ibn Abbas that the Holy Prophet said: "My progeny have been created from the same seed from which I have been created. Allah Almighty has bestowed upon them knowledge and wisdom. Woe be to him who rejects them."

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in Sharh-e-Nahju'l-Balagha, and the author of Siratu's-Sahaba, report from Hudhaifa Bin Asaid that the Holy Prophet said: "I leave behind for you two weighty things: the book of Allah and my 'Ahle Bait.' If you attach yourselves to these two you will be rescued." Tabrani reports an addition: "Do not reject their authority; otherwise you shall be ruined. Do not show any disrespect toward them or ignore them, or else you shall be destroyed. Do not try to teach them because verily they know better than you do."

In other reports Hudhaifa Bin Asaid quotes the Holy Prophet as saying: "After me there will be Imams from my progeny. Their number will be equal to the number of Bani Isra'il's heralds, that is, twelve, of whom nine will be Husain's descendants. Allah has bestowed upon all of them my knowledge and wisdom. So do not teach them because surely they know better than you do. Follow them since they are definitely with truth, and truth is with them."

STOP Pointing out verses from the quran that have nothing to do with infalliable imams for this ummah.

I'm asking you both you and ALEYHISSALAM to point out 1 verse in the quran that tells us that there will be imams after prophet, keeping the below verse in your mind:

Surah 3 verse 7.

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Now since Imamate is FOUNDATION of islam point 1 PRECISE verse out where we are told there will be imams after prophet (pbuh)

Edited by Just the truth

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Civil war, fitnah, only FOUR "Rightly Guided Caliphs" all of whom were alive at the time Muhammad died, so it's not even like a proper dynasty...

 

So your Ijma and consensus worked really well for Islam, that's why all of the Caliphs after Ali were a bunch of corrupt lying pagans.


__________________________________________________

 

Answer my quesrtion in 3rd last post.

Provide proof.


It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding
)_____________________________________


look at the Hadith I gave on Musanad Ibn Hanbal and Al-albani and al Nisiani,


Civil war, fitnah, only FOUR "Rightly Guided Caliphs" all of whom were alive at the time Muhammad died, so it's not even like a proper dynasty...

 

So your Ijma and consensus worked really well for Islam, that's why all of the Caliphs after Ali were a bunch of corrupt lying pagans.

__________________________________________________

 

Answer my quesrtion in 3rd last post.

Provide proof.


It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding
)_____________________________________


look at the Hadith I gave on Musanad Ibn Hanbal and Al-albani and al Nisiani,

 

 

Beliveing in the prophet means to believe in the Khalifa,

refer to the above stated.

and Shura was no practiced by the previous prophets.

No evidience in the Quran either about A preophet telling his peole to ellect a successor of his own.

you make no snese.

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Sunni Islam proposes that Allah and Muhammad left the Ummah without any guidance or successor after his death.

They believe they must take matters into their own hands and decide on leadership.

Look at where that got them!

Civil war, fitnah, only FOUR "Rightly Guided Caliphs" all of whom were alive at the time Muhammad died, so it's not even like a proper dynasty...

So your Ijma and consensus worked really well for Islam, that's why all of the Caliphs after Ali were a bunch of corrupt lying pagans.

So Ijma works so well that all of the Muslim countries are torn with strife and civil unrest, confusion, fitnah, various sects...

Abu Bakr did a great job! Would you elect him and do all of this all over again?

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, if the 'Ulul Amr, Ali ibn abu Talib were to take over and Abu Bakr just sit aside and not mess things up like a bull in a china shop, JUST MAYBE things would be different and people wouldn't make cartoons making fun of Muhammad, and terrorists wouldn't kill school children in the name of Islam?

MAYBE.

But definitely if we elect Abu Bakr all over again then all of this will just repeat itself.

So you're defending one of the greatest trainwrecks in the history of the world...

Hasn't your 12 th imam left you without someone to guide you????

So what's the big deal if Allah didn't choose an imam for us, WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME BOAT NOW ARNT WE.

You don't have a person who is guiding you right now and neither do we!!

So what's the big ding dong about??

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Hasn't your 12 th imam left you without someone to guide you????

So what's the big deal if Allah didn't choose an imam for us, WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME BOAT NOW ARNT WE.

You don't have a person who is guiding you right now and neither do we!!

So what's the big ding dong about??

 

 

Imam Mahdi (As) who is in the Major Concealment.

I made a post to prove so, please check the previous post.

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Lol calm down my dear calm down.

YOU asked for my evidence regarding ijma and I not only showed you a verse but showed you a surah called shura!!

Okay okay... Abu bakr was useless according to you but... He was good enough for Allah and his prophet when he left Makkah to go madinah!!!

If he was so bad why or why would Allah and his apostle trust him, he could have easily started screaming to the QURAISH that Muhammad (pbuh) is here come and get him??

The truth is Allah and prophet loved and trusted him so....,, GET OVER IT

That's why he was present at the Prophets burial! Oh wait. Nope. My bad. That wasn't him. He was "busy".

Right. Go look up the word friend.

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Sunni Islam proposes that Allah and Muhammad left the Ummah without any guidance or successor after his death.

They believe they must take matters into their own hands and decide on leadership.

Look at where that got them!

Civil war, fitnah, only FOUR "Rightly Guided Caliphs" all of whom were alive at the time Muhammad died, so it's not even like a proper dynasty...

So your Ijma and consensus worked really well for Islam, that's why all of the Caliphs after Ali were a bunch of corrupt lying pagans.

So Ijma works so well that all of the Muslim countries are torn with strife and civil unrest, confusion, fitnah, various sects...

Abu Bakr did a great job! Would you elect him and do all of this all over again?

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, if the 'Ulul Amr, Ali ibn abu Talib were to take over and Abu Bakr just sit aside and not mess things up like a bull in a china shop, JUST MAYBE things would be different and people wouldn't make cartoons making fun of Muhammad, and terrorists wouldn't kill school children in the name of Islam?

MAYBE.

But definitely if we elect Abu Bakr all over again then all of this will just repeat itself.

So you're defending one of the greatest trainwrecks in the history of the world...

Oh I'm sorry were you talking to me zzzzzzzzz.....

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Hasn't your 12 th imam left you without someone to guide you????

So what's the big deal if Allah didn't choose an imam for us, WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME BOAT NOW ARNT WE.

You don't have a person who is guiding you right now and neither do we!!

So what's the big ding dong about??

 

I'm not debating Shi'ism.

 

I'm just saying that in Islam there is no evidence to elect a successor.

 

Therefore what Abu Bakr did was un-Islamic.

 

What topics we discuss after that is another matter.

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I'm not debating Shi'ism.

 

I'm just saying that in Islam there is no evidence to elect a successor.

 

Therefore what Abu Bakr did was un-Islamic.

 

What topics we discuss after that is another matter.

 

 

He ignored some of the verse I stated on this issue and some of the Ahadith, from the primary sources.

no need to argue with him friend.

 

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So tell me 1 thing, please.

What's the difference between not having a leader and having one who is hidden and whom YOU cannot contact???

 

Assuming the Sunni perspective, there is none, just elect a leader to fix the problem.

 

Assuming the Shi'a perspective, Sabr (patience), which is talked about a lot in the Qur'an.

 

Theoretically, they're both equally worthless assuming the hidden leader is not actually influencing the world.

Conversely, if the hidden leader is influencing the world then it is better than no leader at all.

 

Also, there is the hypothetical scenario that Abu Bakr never was elected, an alternate history... If Ali were to take over from the beginning, perhaps we would not be in the same world we are right now, things would be different, better.

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So tell me 1 thing, please.

What's the difference between not having a leader and having one who is hidden and whom YOU cannot contact???

 

 

No differnce at All, as you know Prophet Idris (as) and prophet Khuider (as) where also in concealement.

 

Please refer back to the post about Imam Mahdi (as) and make me a reply there

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016357-believing-in-the-mahdi-af-is-obligatory/

 

 

 

Please read my asnwer on Ulu AL MAr

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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I'm not debating Shi'ism.

I'm just saying that in Islam there is no evidence to elect a successor.

Therefore what Abu Bakr did was un-Islamic.

What topics we discuss after that is another matter.

If ijma is in islamic when choosing a leader then show me 1 verse where Allah tells us that he will choose an imam for this ummah??

Keeping this verse in mind:

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Since imamat is usul ad din (FOUNDATION) then show me 1 precise verse

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It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Since imamat is usul ad din (FOUNDATION) then show me 1 precise verse          

_____________________________

 

 

read my asnwer on Ulu Al Amar

 

“Oh Muhammad! Have we expanded not your breast? And didn’t we ease your burden, which weighed down on your back, and increased your name, certainly after every difficulty comes ease, so when you finish appoint and return to your Lord” (The Qur’an 94:7-8)We read in Surah Inshirah, verse 7-8

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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And, for the record, I do not argue whether any sect is right or wrong...

 

I am just pointing out facts that electing a successor is not to be found in Islam.

 

What conclusion you arrive from accepting this fact is your own journey bro.

 

What Abu Bakr did was not in the teachings of Islam, that is the bottom line.  He usurped something that did not belong to him which resulted in civil war for the next 1400 years.


If ijma is in islamic when choosing a leader then show me 1 verse where Allah tells us that he will choose an imam for this ummah??

Keeping this verse in mind:

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] PRECISE - they are the FOUNDATION of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Since imamat is usul ad din (FOUNDATION) then show me 1 precise verse

 

This lecture will hopefully shed light on your question

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNf_SUwn-UA

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No differnce at All, as you know Prophet Idris (as) and prophet Khuider (as) where also in concealement.

Please refer back to the post about Imam Mahdi (as) and make me a reply there

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016357-believing-in-the-mahdi-af-is-obligatory/

Please read my asnwer on Ulu AL MAr

No I won't reply there, here my friend we are talking about US and why we need imams after prophet, also why have we been deprived of imams.

Sahaba had quran and hadith so why they need infalliable imams

We do no have infalliable imams yet we are still being guided alhamdulillah through the quran and hadith, so my question is if we can be guided by these two then why not the earlier generations

If we do not need an infalliable to guide us because we have quran hadith then why did they need infalliables??

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No I won't reply there, here my friend we are talking about US and why we need imams after prophet, also why have we been deprived of imams.

Sahaba had quran and hadith so why they need infalliable imams

We do no have infalliable imams yet we are still being guided alhamdulillah through the quran and hadith, so my question is if we can be guided by these two then why not the earlier generations

If we do not need an infalliable to guide us because we have quran hadith then why did they need infalliables??

 

Imamah Came after the name of Prophet Ibrahim, Jesus, and Muhammad (as) also More.

In the time of the prophet (pbuh) there was no need for Imams as he was the leader of the Islamic nation.

It was after he passed (pbuh). Wow How many time do I have to tell you

I LEAVE YOU WITH TWO THINGS, HOLD ON TO THEM AND YOU WILL NEVER GO ASTRAY

THE BOOK OF Allah

 

AND MY AHLULBAYT.

____________________________|

 

Salam

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And, for the record, I do not argue whether any sect is right or wrong...

I am just pointing out facts that electing a successor is not to be found in Islam.

What conclusion you arrive from accepting this fact is your own journey bro.

What Abu Bakr did was not in the teachings of Islam, that is the bottom line. He usurped something that did not belong to him which resulted in civil war for the next 1400 years.

This lecture will hopefully shed light on your question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNf_SUwn-UA

Hold up brother/sister let me correct you.

Abu bakr did not start any civil war, the civil war started after uthman was martyred.

Ali did not fight for Imamate when abu bakr according to you stole leadership of him!!

But then he raised the sword when his caliphate was threatened wonder why??

Maybe you should read nahj balagah letter 6

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No I won't reply there, here my friend we are talking about US and why we need imams after prophet, also why have we been deprived of imams.

Sahaba had quran and hadith so why they need infalliable imams

We do no have infalliable imams yet we are still being guided alhamdulillah through the quran and hadith, so my question is if we can be guided by these two then why not the earlier generations

If we do not need an infalliable to guide us because we have quran hadith then why did they need infalliables??

So in your opinion. Right now. None of you need guidance?

So your saying. You have religion figured out so well, that you need not study. Nor listen to any scholars.

Is that it?

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No I won't reply there, here my friend we are talking about US and why we need imams after prophet, also why have we been deprived of imams.

Sahaba had quran and hadith so why they need infalliable imams

We do no have infalliable imams yet we are still being guided alhamdulillah through the quran and hadith, so my question is if we can be guided by these two then why not the earlier generations

 

If we do not need an infalliable to guide us because we have quran hadith then why did they need infalliables??

 

 

Then why do we need prophets?

 

Abu Bakr had anyone killed who refused to give Bayat (pledge allegiance) to him... They even stormed Ali's house, in which Fatima sustained injuries that shortly after killed her.  She cursed Abu Bakr and Omar for this even unto her death.

 

They lit the match that burned down the ummah.

 

Nahj al Balagah is thought to be fabricated, it's nice stories at best.  Irrelevant though.

 

Do you know Harun and Musa?

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Hold up brother/sister let me correct you.

Abu bakr did not start any civil war, the civil war started after uthman was martyred.

Ali did not fight for Imamate when abu bakr according to you stole leadership of him!!

But then he raised the sword when his caliphate was threatened wonder why??

Maybe you should read nahj balagah letter 6[/quote

LOL what history books are you reading? Wait. I can probably guess them.

And who martyred Uthman?

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Imamah Came after the name of Prophet Ibrahim, Jesus, and Muhammad (as) also More.

In the time of the prophet (pbuh) there was no need for Imams as he was the leader of the Islamic nation.

It was after he passed (pbuh). Wow How many time do I have to tell you

I LEAVE YOU WITH TWO THINGS, HOLD ON TO THEM AND YOU WILL NEVER GO ASTRAY

THE BOOK OF Allah

AND MY AHLULBAYT.

____________________________|

Salam

Firstly imam means leader, it does not mean they became imams the way shia interpretate it.

Nubbuwah is above Imamate

All your imams are under every single prophet

Ok I'm holding onto quran, where is imam mahdi so I can hold on to him to??

Why have we not got somebody guiding us if this ummah needs infalliable imams

Why only the early generations and not us??

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Two things are crystal clear to me.

Two of the people who were the foundations of Islam : Prophet Muhammad and Sayeda Fatima.

Both died without Abu Bakr or Omar at there burials.

Need we discuss anything else???!

Really. Some things are just common sense.

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Hold up brother/sister let me correct you.

Abu bakr did not start any civil war, the civil war started after uthman was martyred.

Ali did not fight for Imamate when abu bakr according to you stole leadership of him!!

But then he raised the sword when his caliphate was threatened wonder why??

Maybe you should read nahj balagah letter 6[/quote

LOL what history books are you reading? Wait. I can probably guess them.

And who martyred Uthman?

I'm reading books that are authentic what do you read

Rebels martyred uthman

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Firstly imam means leader, it does not mean they became imams the way shia interpretate it.

Nubbuwah is above Imamate

All your imams are under every single prophet

Ok I'm holding onto quran, where is imam mahdi so I can hold on to him to??

Why have we not got somebody guiding us if this ummah needs infalliable imams

Why only the early generations and not us??

The first Eleven were martyred.

Allah (swt) gave us 11 generations that we managed to mess up. So obviously, we aren't worthy.

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Then why do we need prophets?

Abu Bakr had anyone killed who refused to give Bayat (pledge allegiance) to him... They even stormed Ali's house, in which Fatima sustained injuries that shortly after killed her. She cursed Abu Bakr and Omar for this even unto her death.

They lit the match that burned down the ummah.

Nahj al Balagah is thought to be fabricated, it's nice stories at best. Irrelevant though.

Do you know Harun and Musa?

Prophets are needed to guide us

Prophet (pbuh) left quran behind which we are guided by till this day can you see an infalliable leading us???

What authentic book did your imams leave behind????

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Prophets are needed to guide us

Prophet (pbuh) left quran behind which we are guided by till this day can you see an infalliable leading us???

What authentic book did your imams leave behind????

AUTHENTIC?? AUTHENTIC? See this is the flaw in your whole belief.

There is NO authentic book besides the Holy word of God in the Holy Quran.

No Sahih Bukhari, Muslim or Bateekhi.

Just ONE book. There is no other.

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