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Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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Statement:

Haron and Ali Where successors nor prophets
I said: Excuse me... Harun a.s was not a prophet????
Are you for real, do you have any knowledge at all?? Or do you just come on this forum to misguide people???
HARUN a.s was a PROPHET
Research friend research.

 

Reply: Any one who is going to read this is going to laugh. My dear no. Harun was a prophet and a successor . When are you going to start reading? have you banned your books? you have your books banned you? 

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/14.htm#_ftnref99

 

 

 

Ali (s) was not just temporary deputy but he was (successor) Authentic Sunni Hadith proves that (like I posted in post #1)


Nothing proves your point, If Musa (s) would die before Harun (s) then he Harun (s) would be again his succesor

Just becouse Harun (s) died before Musa (s) does not mean that he Harun (s) was not his succesor

Musa   (as) Prophet → Harun   (as) Prophet his (successor)


Muhammad   (pbuh) Prophet → Ali   (as) Imam his (successor)

'Exception there will be no Prophet after me'

 

and Imam Ali (s) was successor, but the prophet said:"  there will be no Prophet after me'

 

 

Narrated from Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah (saws) said to Ali: "You are to me like Harun in relation to Moses, the only difference is that there is no Prophet after me. And truly I ought to go only if you're my Caliph for every believer after me. "

Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Asim Vol 3, page 183

→ Zilalatil Jannah Fi Tahridzhis Sunnah by Albani page 519-520 Hadith Number # 1188

'Isnaad is valid and transmitters are reliable'

+ I have scans 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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You are missing the part where imamat is usul adin.

Question if I reject salah which is furu ad din will I be either momin or Muslim??

The answer is of course no.

So my question to you is if rejecting a furu ad din takes one out of islam (you are neither a mumin or Muslim) then how can you remain a Muslim by rejecting an usul ad din??

PLEASE ANSWER .

Eid Mubarak

 

Here I find two statements based on your responses given in above threads:

 

1- Immamat is part of Usul Deen (regarding 12 Imams)

2- You dont consider Hz Ali as as Imam, or Caliph after the prophet and You do not believe that Ulil Amr means 12 Imams including first one Ali and last Al Mahdi.

 

Based on your contradictory statements given above, it shows your  irrational approach to religion. Question regarding furu deen like Salah is irrelevant with the disscussion rearding the successorship of the prophet.

 

Howevr, Furu deen are actions that should be implemented by a muslim in his life and not following a furu deen can lead a person as sinner. If you intend to disscuss it open a new topic it can be disscussed there in detail.

 

As far as my point on Immamat or following Ulil amr is concerned i have clearly mentioned in the last post.

 

Regards.

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To continue on and prove My Stance that Imam Ali (As) is the Khalifa i shall recite the following from your books:

 

(bismillah)

 

 

 

In Musanad Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, 
By Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, 
Verified and Investigated (commentated)

by Hamza Ahmad Al-Zain, Volume 16, page 28

 

He Said: Narrated by Zaid ibn Thabit, He said, The prophet  (pbuh) said: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors), The book of Allah Rope between the heavens and the earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar," 

 

The Chain of Narrators, Hadith 21470, "The Chain is Hassan (good)"

 

____________________________________________________________

Sahih of "Al-Jami" Al Sagheer"

For the Scholar Al-Albani, the 1st Volume, page 482

Hadith 2457,  

The prophet  (pbuh) said: "I am leaving for you two Khalifas (successors), The Book of Allah, rope between the heavens and earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar," 

 

Al- Albani says: " It is a SAHIH (perfect)."

_______________________________________________

Now you would probably ask me, What is so special about this phrase?

Well, Firstly, its common with the first phrase in the case of quoting "They Will no separate until they med at the pond (Kawthar). So this is now a foundation that's approved one hundred percent. However, in this particular phrase, there is a bonus feature: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors)!"

 

Go back to grammar, to the dictionaries, to the words of the scholars and Hadiths and find what does "Khalifa" mean. Is there any meaning other than succeed Leadership after me?

 

Specially that the prophet  (pbuh) says "I am leaving IN YOU this successor.

 

So my dear friend, the claim that the prophet  (pbuh) did not give a Khalifaa (leadership) to anyone is Refuted by these Sahih Hadiths, That "I am leaving with (or In) you Two Khalifas (successors)."

 

And now this Also if a Hujjat on you because Allah Subhanaho Wa Talalla, says:
"Whenever you have a Quarrel, Return to God and His Prophet's sayings." (Quran 4:59)

 

and he Also Says:
"Take whatever the prophet comes you with, and whatever he forbids, stay away from." (Quran 59:7)

 

by why? Well the answer is simple, its because  Allah Also says:

"he Does not speak out of his own intuition, but rather a revelation from God." (quran 53:4-5)

 

So I referred back to the prophet's sayings because his sayings are revelations. he said:

"I am leaving in you two Khalifas (successors)."

 

I swear, if one was indeed fair in his research, at least this would be a reason to search Further.!

To see where the truth is, what else do you want the prophet to say to prove Imam Ali's Successorship?

 

ALL these phrases were used: "Wilaya (masterhood), Wali (master), Khalifa (successor)", 
All these phrases were used numerous times....brothers, you say the first two Caliphs deserved their position,

But the prophet here says otherwise!, So, dear brothers, this should be a good reason to search and revise.

____________________________________________________________________________

 

So, the second version of the hadith as I mentioned, differs from the first in one sense and is common with it in another.

The First phrase (Thaqalayn) is SAHIH and so in the second phrase (KHLIFA).

 

Now the third phrase which was Written in:

Ithaf Al Khiyara Al-Mahara",

For the Imam Al-Haafiz Shahaab Ul-Deen Al-Buseeri

Introduced by Sheikh Dr, Ahmad Ma'bad, member of Council of Education in
Imam Muhammad bin Su'ood University, Revised (and reassured) by "dar Al-Mishkat" for Research.
Supervised by Abu Tameem Yassir Ibn Ibrahim, Volume 7, First edition, 1999, Al-Riyadah, Saudi Arabia.

Page 210: In the Door of " In the prophet's quote: 'Whoever I am his mater, Ali is his master.":

 

Narrated By Imam Ali: "The prophet  (pbuh) was there under the tree in (ghadeer) Khum. Then he came out 

and took Ali's Hand and said: 'Don't you testify that Allah is your Lord? they said: 'yes', Then he said: "don't you testify that Allah and his messenger have more right over you, than your own selves, and that Allah and his messenger are your masters?", They said: 'yes'. Then he said: 'whoever God and myself are his mastersthen He (Ali) is his mater. And I left in you that which if you take and Abide by, you would Never go astray,  God's book and My Ahlulbayt."

 

Narrated by Ishaaq, with a SAHIH (perfect) chain of narration

and said by Imam Al Booseeri, 'and the hadith of Ghadeer was directed by Al-Nisai'i.'

_____

I honestly don't know how here in this case "wilaya" would mean "love"...as some Sunni's claim. 
The "Wilayah" (guardianship/mastership) of God and his messenger is for Ali, not just the prophet  (pbuh)!!,
brothers listen to me, This phrase is indeed  great and wondrous phrase (in its meaning and Weight)!

For God's sake pay attention, contemplate and reflect!!:

Again: he said said: 'whoever God and myself are his masters, then He (Ali) is his mater."

Please, ask yourselves and think. Is the "Wilayah (mastership) of God upon us (creation) just to love and support him?" Is it just love really? which makes claim that its means "whoever loves me, shoud love Ali.."???? NO!, and a million times NO....Indeed if this was said in the praise of any other person (sahaba), it would not have been taken lightly!...but when its come to Ali  (as)...ohh no......how very shameful indeed.

 

These phrases and quotes are enough for the whole world, I tell you, but, its just because its in honour of Ali, you find the Ummayyads and those who support them, stand against this. (istaghfralla) what can I say? I'm speechless. lets continue on....The second source is that has been written in:

"Al-Jami'i Al-Kabeer" - 
Sunan Al Tirmidhi,

From Imam Al-Hafidh, revised by Shuaib al-Arnaoot,

Book (part) 6, page 235:

 

Narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah: " I Saw the prophet  (pbuh) in pilgrimage as he was on his camel

speaking. So I heard him Say: 'O people, I have left with you that which if you abide by, you will never go astray, God's Book (Quran) and My (holy) Family (Ahlulbayt)." 

 

We look at the footnotes:
 

Al-Arnaoot's view: This hadith is SAHIH (perfect)

Al-Arnaoot says: AL-Sindi in the explanation of "my Ahlulbayt": it was as if

the prophet (pbih) made them (family) equal in importance even to His position. 

'Just as in his  (pbuh) life, it was Him and the Quran, AFTER HIS LIFE, it was his FAMILY (Ahlulbayt) and

the Quran."

 

________________

I swear By God, what does "Official khilafa" mean if THIS was not its meaning?????

The Hadith wants to say that in my (prophet) time it was I and the QURAN, but after me,

It's MY FAMILY and the QURAN!" 

 

Don't say to me, the Quran and the companions (sahaba)...

Yes we respect the Companions of the Holy prophet in the scales of the Quran and Hadith.

Yes, we do accept the narration from them if the chain was strong..

But, the Hujja, if they DISAGREE with Ahlulbayt, then return to the 2 successors: The Quran and Hus Holy family.

 

Just like in the time of the holy prophet  (pbuh) if the companions say something that disagrees with the prophet, Who would

you agree with?

 

What does the Quran say????

"If you disagree in something, then return to God and his prophet." (Quran 4:95) in his LIFETIME.

 

So what does the Phrase says? In the Hadith I mentioned? what? it says: After his  (pbuh) death,
return to God and the HOLY FAMILY (Ahlulbayt).

 

These indeed are the fruits of this beautiful Hadith which will REMAIN until the day of reckoning, God Wills!

_____________________________________________________________________

 

post-83202-0-15185700-1376234990_thumb.j

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Statement:

Haron and Ali Where successors nor prophets

I said: Excuse me... Harun a.s was not a prophet????

Are you for real, do you have any knowledge at all?? Or do you just come on this forum to misguide people???

HARUN a.s was a PROPHET

Research friend research.

Reply: Any one who is going to read this is going to laugh. My dear no. Harun was a prophet and a successor . When are you going to start reading? have you banned your books? you have your books banned you?

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/14.htm#_ftnref99

Ali (s) was not just temporary deputy but he was (successor) Authentic Sunni Hadith proves that (like I posted in post #1)

Nothing proves your point, If Musa (s) would die before Harun (s) then he Harun (s) would be again his succesor

Just becouse Harun (s) died before Musa (s) does not mean that he Harun (s) was not his succesor

Musa (as) Prophet → Harun (as) Prophet his (successor)

Muhammad (pbuh) Prophet → Ali (as) Imam his (successor)

'Exception there will be no Prophet after me'

and Imam Ali (s) was successor, but the prophet said:" there will be no Prophet after me'

Narrated from Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah (saws) said to Ali: "You are to me like Harun in relation to Moses, the only difference is that there is no Prophet after me. And truly I ought to go only if you're my Caliph for every believer after me. "

Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Asim Vol 3, page 183

→ Zilalatil Jannah Fi Tahridzhis Sunnah by Albani page 519-520 Hadith Number # 1188

'Isnaad is valid and transmitters are reliable'

+ I have scans

Oh my god.... YOU ARE a real piece of work do you know that.

You haven't answered my questions yet you accuse ME of not answering yours!!!!

Do you even read my posts or just answer with your eyes closed.

1. In question ONE I asked you:

If the world will be destroyed without an imam on it who was imam between Muhammad pbuh and ISA a.s. although they are both prophets and not IMAMS. These two blessed prophets got wahi and imams do not get wahi. I've given you the benefit of the doubt just in case you were to mention there names.

I say:

I see how you have highlighted imam mahdi a.s in bright red, that's all good BUT I don't know why??

My main question to you is who was divinely appointed imam BEFORE ali??

The best answer you probably have is Muhammad pbuh. Now I am asking you who was divinely appointed between prophet ISA a.s and prophet MUHAMMAD??

PLEASE ANSWER THIS

2. Regarding this question I read your post FULLY and replied to you and I will reply again with the exact same answer

I answered you, yet you totally ignored my answer.

MY ANSWER WAS:

In the second paragraph first line of your reply YOU SAID:

We find in the Qur’ãn that whenever it mentions Imãmah it puts guidance side by side

MY ANSWER:

I straight away refuted this as I am now convinced your islamic knowledge is indeed extremely low

MY ANSWER WAS:

Are you sure when imamat is mentioned it puts guidance side by side??

I then directed you to a verse in the quran 28:41 where imam is mentioned and then says they call you towards FIRE!!!

3. Imamat is USUL AD DIN if there was a verse telling us that there will be imams for this ummah then by rejecting I would become kafir.

Therefore as there is no verse in quran where Allah says that there will be imams after prophet your aqidah is on a rocky edge.

ANSWER QUESTION THREE PLEASE WITH AN ANSWER THAT ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.

4. Looooooolz YOU are the one that said harun a.s wasNOT a prophet whereas I said harun a.s WAS a prophet, yet YOU have the nerve and the cheek to say people will laugh at ME!!

I can direct you to the post where you said it, OR you could save yourself the embarrassment and admit YOU need an islamic education.

Here I find two statements based on your responses given in above threads:

1- Immamat is part of Usul Deen (regarding 12 Imams)

2- You dont consider Hz Ali as as Imam, or Caliph after the prophet and You do not believe that Ulil Amr means 12 Imams including first one Ali and last Al Mahdi.

Based on your contradictory statements given above, it shows your irrational approach to religion. Question regarding furu deen like Salah is irrelevant with the disscussion rearding the successorship of the prophet.

Howevr, Furu deen are actions that should be implemented by a muslim in his life and not following a furu deen can lead a person as sinner. If you intend to disscuss it open a new topic it can be disscussed there in detail.

As far as my point on Immamat or following Ulil amr is concerned i have clearly mentioned in the last post.

Regards.

Hold up....

Let me get this straight.

You say be denying an USUL AD DIN I can still remain a Muslim??

Brilliant, so there is no problem me denying angels?? Or yawm al qiyamah??

Right??

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

1. In question ONE I asked you:
If the world will be destroyed without an imam on it who was imam between Muhammad pbuh and ISA a.s. although they are both prophets and not IMAMS. These two blessed prophets got wahi and imams do not get wahi. I've given you the benefit of the doubt just in case you were to mention there names. I say:I see how you have highlighted imam mahdi a.s in bright red, that's all good BUT I don't know why?? My main question to you is who was divinely appointed imam BEFORE ali?? The best answer you probably have is Muhammad pbuh. Now I am asking you who was divinely appointed between prophet ISA a.s and prophet MUHAMMAD??

 

 

Very good Question Friend. Who where the Divinely appointed Ones before prophet Muhammad (pbuh) if Allah cannot leave the world without an Authority and guidance. Actually I Been discussing this issue a couple of weeks ago. Like Jesus and Mosa (as) they also appointed successors after them. Now we already know that the time length between prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and jesus (as) is About almost 480 years. So no dount that Allah must have appointed a successor for Jesus Peace be upon him, so let us mention the following and think Deeply.
 

1. One of the companions of the Commander of the Faithful said that some of his companians said, “O Commander of the Faithful! The executor of Moses showed the signs to his companians after Moses and the executor of Jesus showed the signs to his companians after Jesus. So, will you not show us?” He said, ‘You do not remain [in your belief.]’ They insisted on it and said, ‘O Commander of the Faithful!’ Then he took the hands of nine persons among them and took them out toward the houses of Hajars until he overlooked a salt marsh. Then he spoke slowly and said to his hand, ‘Disclose what you have covered.’ Then every thing in the Heaven that has been described by Allah, was before their eyes with its gladness and beauty. Then four of them came back and said, ‘Magic! Magic!’ One of them remained [in his belief], as Allah wills, and sat somewhere (in an assembly) and reported some of it. So the people gathered around him and brought him to the Commander of the Faithful.”

(Al-Ikhtisàs, 326)

 

2. Al-Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar said, “Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said to me, ‘On the Resurrection Day four days hurry to Allah, the Mighty and Magnificent, like the bride who hurries to her quarters of the tent, al-Fitr, al-’Adhà, al-Jum‘ah (Friday) and Ghadír Khum. Ghadír Khum is between al-Fitr and al-’Adhà. Friday is like the moon among the stars. Allah puts the cherubim, the prophets of Allah who are apostles, the chosen executors and the friends of Allah onGhadír Khum. On that day, the master of the angels is Gabrielu, the master of the prophets is Muhammad, the master of the executors is the Commander of the Faithful and the masters of the friends of Allah are Salmàn, Abudhar, al-Miqdàd and ‘Ammàr. These days bring them into heaven just as the shepherd brings his sheep to the water and grassland.’ I said to him, ‘O my master! Do you order me to fast on it?’ He answered, ‘Yes, By Allah. Yes, By Allah. Yes, By Allah. Verily it is the day on which Allah accepted the repentance of Adam (‘a) and he abstained on it to thank Allah. It is the day on which Allah, the Exalted, saved Abrahamu from the fire and he abstained on it to thank Allah, the Exalted. It is the day on which Moses established Hàrun (‘a) like a flag, and he abstained on it to thank Allah, the Exalted. It is the day on which Jesus (‘a) revealed his executor Simon al-Safà and he abstained on it to thank Allah, the Mighty and Magnificent.

 

It is the day on which the Apostle of Allah established ‘Alí like a flag for the people and revealed his favor and his being the executor, and he abstained on it to thank Allah, the Blessed and Exalted. It is the day of fasting, vigil, feeding [the poor], and visiting with the brothers, and in it there are the satisfaction of al-Rahmàn and the dislike of Satan.’”

(Al-’Iqbàl, 466)

 

3. Ibn ‘Abbàssaid, “When Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, sent the verse, ‘…And fullfill My covenant, so I will fullfill your covenant.’ (2, 40) the Apostle of Allah said, ‘By Allah, Adam made a covenant with his people concerning his son, Seth and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Noah made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Sàm and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Abraham made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Ismà‘íl and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it.

 

Moses made a covenant with his people concerning his executor, Yusha‘ ibn Nun and went out from this world, but his people did not fulfill it. Jesus the son of Mary made a covenant with his people concerning his executor Simon ibn Hamun al-Safà and was raised to heaven, but his people did not fulfill it.

 

Also I will separate from you soon and will leave you. I have made a covenant with my community concerning ‘Alí ibn Abu Tàlib, but they will continue with the rites of the previous communities in opposing my executor and disobeying him….’”

(Ma‘àní al-Akhbàr, 373)

 

4. It is reported that Qays, the servant of ‘Alí ibn Abí Tàlib (‘a) said, “Once when ‘Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, was near the mountain at Siffín, the time for the evening prayers came. So, he went farther away and called for the prayers. When he finished the call to prayer, a man appeared from near the mountain with grey hair and beard, and a bright white face. He said, ‘Peace be with you, O Commander of the Faithful, and mercy and blessings from Allah! Welcome to the successor of the last of the prophets, leader of the ones with bright, brilliant faces, magnanimous and protected, excellent and one who has the reward of the truthful, master of all the successors!’

 

So, the Commander of the Faithful said, ‘And peace be with you. How are you?’

 

He replied, ‘I am well, waiting for the holy spirit. I do not know of any name that is greater in the estimation of Allah, His Name is Mighy and Magnificent, at the time of an ordeal than yours, nor of any who has earned more rewards than you, nor of anyone who has an eleveated place higher than yours. Put up with all that your face, O my brother, until you meet the beloved. Verily, I have witnessed whatever happened to our companions in the past at the hands of the children of Israel. They cut them apart with the saw and carried them over the bier.’ And then pointing towards the people of Syria, he said, ‘And if these poor, ugly faces knew what chastisement and exemplary punishment awaited them for fighting against you, they would withdraw.; And then pointing to the people of Iraq, he said, ‘And if these bright faces knew that award awaited them for having obeyed you, they would love to be cut by scissors. And peace and His mercy and blessings be with you.’ Then he disappeared. At that time, Ammàr ibn Yàsir, ‘Abdul Haytham ibn al-Tíhan, Abu Ayyub al-Ansàrí, ‘Ubaydah ibn al-Sàmit, Khuzayma ibn Thàbit and Hàshim al-Marqal, among a group of his followers, having heard what the man had said, stood up and said, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Who was that man?’ The Commander of the Faithful said, ‘He is Simon, the successor of Jesus (‘a). Allah sent him to me to give me solace for this confrontation with His enemies.’ They said, ‘May our parents be your ransom! By Allah! We will help you the way we helped the Apostle of Allah (‘s), and none from the Muhàjirín norAnsàr shall desert you, except the unfortunate one.’ Then the Commander of the Faithful said some kind words to them.”

(Amàlí, 1, 104-106, 5)

 

5. Imam Bàqir (‘a) said, “Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (‘s) to the genies and the people, and after him He put twelve exectutors (waSíy). Some of them have gone and some remain. Each executor put a way (sunnah) into practice, and the executors after Muhammad (‘s) followed the way of the executors of Jesus, who were also twelve, and the Commander of the Faithful followed the way of the Messiah.”

(Kàfí, 1, 532, 10)

 

6. Musà ibn Ja‘far narrated from his fathers, peace be with them, that ‘Alí (‘a) said to Salmàn, “Will you not inform us about the beginning of your matter?” He said, “I am from Shíràz and I was a dear boy to my father. I was with him in a cloister on one of their festival days. Then one in it called, ‘I testify that there is no god but Allah, Jesus is the Spirit of Allah and Muhammad is the beloved of Allah.’ Then the loveliness of him entered into my flesh and blood. My father said, ‘Why do you not prostrate for the rise of the sun?’ I argued with him until he became silent. When I came back to my house I saw a book hung below the ceiling. I said to my mother, ‘What is this book?’ She said, ‘O Ruzbih! When we returned from our festival, we saw this book that was hung. So do not approach that place. If not, your father will kill you.’ I implored her until the darkness of night came and my father and mother went to sleep. Then I stood and took the book. Written in it was, ‘In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is a covenant from Allah to Adam that He will create from his loins a prophet, who will be named ‘Muhammad.’ He will command noble virtue and prohibit the worship of idols. O Ruzbih! Go to the executor of the executor of Jesus and be at his service. He will guide you to your aim.’Then I lost my consciousness. My parents understood and put me in a well and said, ‘Do not come back, otherwise we will kill you.’ I said, ‘Do to me what you want. The love of Muhammad will not go from my breast.’

 

I did not know Arabic, but Allah taught me on that day. They sent small loaves of bread to me. I spent a long time in the well, and I raised my hands to the sky and said, ‘O My Lord! You evoked the love of Muhammad and his executor in me. By the right of his means, may You hasten my emergence.’

 

Then one who wore white clothes came to me and said, ‘O Ruzbih! Stand up.’ Then he took my hand and brought me to the cloister. I went up to it. The monk said, ‘Are you Ruzbih?’ I answered, ‘Yes.’ I stayed near him two years and served him. When he was in the throes of death, he directed me to a monk in Antioch and gave me a tablet on which the attributes of Muhammad were written.When I came to the monk of Antioch and went up to his cloister, he said, ‘Are you Ruzbih?’ I answered, ‘Yes.’ He welcomed me and I served him for two years, too. He informed me of the attributes of Muhammad and his executor.

 

When he was in the throes of death, he said to me, ‘O Ruzbih! The raising of Muhammad is near.’ After his death, I went out with a group to Hijàz and served them. Once they killed a sheep with a blow, roasted it, prepared wine and said to me, ‘Eat and drink.’ I refused. They wanted to kill me. I said, ‘Do not kill me. I confess that I will be a servant to you.’

 

Then they bought me to a Jew. He asked me about my story. I told him the matter from the beginning to the end. He said, ‘I hate you and Muhammad.’ and brought me out of his house. There was much sand near the door of his house. He said, ‘If you do not transfer all of this sand from here to there, I will kill you.’ I began to carry it during the night. When I became tired, although I had moved but a little of it, I would say, ‘O My Lord! You evoked the love of Muhammad and his executor in me. By the right of his means, give me rest from this.’ So Allah raised a wind by which the sand moved from its place to the place that the Jew had said. In the morning the Jew said to me, ‘You are a witch. I will bring you out of this village for you cannot destroy us.’ He brought me out and sold me to a good woman. She loved me. She put me in a garden for her and said, ‘Eat, grant and give alms from it.’ One day when I was in the garden, I saw that seven groups were coming and a cloud was shading them and went with them. I said, ‘Verily there is a prophet among them.’”

(Al-Kharà’ij wa al-Jarà’ih, 3, 1078, 1081)     

As you can see, Prophet Isa (jesus) peace be upon him, also had successors and Companions in the relation also to Prophet Mosa (as) and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Let us continue....

 

 

place.gif 1. It is reported that al-Bàqir (‘a) said, “Verily, Allah sent Jesus only to the Children of Israel and his prophecy was at the Sacred House [Jerusalem], and after him there were twelve apostles.”

(Bihàr, 14, 250, 40)

 

2. It is reported that Ibn ‘Abbàs said, “I said, ‘O Apostle of Allah! How many imams will there be after you?’ He said, ‘The number of the disciples of Jesus, the number of tribes of Moses, the number of the chieftans of the children of Israel.’ I said, ‘O Apostle of Allah! How many were they?’ He said, ‘They were twelve, and the imams after me will be twelve....’”

(Bihàr, 36, 285, 107)

 

3. It is reported that ‘Alí ibn al-Hasan ibn Fadàl reported that his father said, “I said to Ridà (‘a), ‘Why were the disciples (hawàriyín) called hawàriyín?’ He said, ‘According to the people, they were called hawàriyín because they were bleachers who used to clean clothes from filth by washing, and this name is derived from hawàrí(bleached)bread, but according to us they are called hawàriyínbecause they were pure in themselves and purified others from the filth of sin by sermons and remembrance.’ Then it was asked, ‘Why were the Christians (Nasàrà) called Nasàrà?’ He said, ‘Because they were from a village named NàSirah among the towns of Syria. Mary and Jesus settled in it after they returned from Egypt.’”          
(Bihàr, 14, 273, 2)

 

4. Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said, “Verily the disciples of Jesus (‘a) were his followers, and our followers are our disciples. The disciples of Jesus were not more obedient than our disciples are to us. Jesus (‘a) said to the disciples, ‘Who are my helpers for Allah?’ The disciples said, ‘We will be the helpers of Allah.’( By Allah, they did not help him from the Jews and they did not fight with them for him, but our followers, by Allah, always have helped us since Allah, may His remembrance be magnified, took [the soul of] the Apostle of Allah, and they have fought for us, have been burned and tormented and frightened away in the cities. May Allah give them the best reward for us.”

(Kàfí, 8, 268, 396)

 

5. Anas ibn Màlik said, “I asked the Apostle of Allah (‘s) about the disciples of Jesus. He said, ‘They were those chosen by him as best, and they were twelve who were unmarried and quick to help Allah and His Apostle. There was neither pride in them nor weakness nor doubt. They helped him with vision, influence, seriousness and suffering.’ I said, ‘So, who are your disciples, O Apostle of Allah?’ He said, ‘The leaders (imàms) after me who are twelve from the loins of ‘Alí and FàTimah. They are my disciples and the helpers of my religion, may peace be granted to them from Allah.’”

(Bihàr, 36, 310, 149)

 

6. Mufaddal reported in a lengthy narration that he said to al-Sàdiq (‘a), “O my guardian and master! Why are the people of Moses called Yahud (Jews)?” He said, “Because of the saying of Allah, the mighty and magnificent, ‘Verily, we turn (hudnà) unto You’(7:156), that is, ‘we seek Your guidance.’” He said, “What about theNasàrà (Christians)?” He said, “Because of the saying of Jesus (‘a),‘Who will be my helpers in the way of Allah?’ The disciples said, ‘We are the helpers (ansàr) of Allah. We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are ones who submit.’ (3:52) So, they were called Nasàrà because of their help to the religion of Allah.”

(Bihàr, 53, 5)

 

7. It was said to Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a), “Why is it that the companions of Jesus (‘a) walked on water, while it was not this way with the companions of Muhammad (‘s)?” He said, “Verily, the companions of Jesus were saved the trouble of livelihood, but the latter were tested by livelihood.”

(Kàfí, 5, 71, 3)

 

8. It is reported that Imam Sàdiq (‘a) said, “When Jesus (‘a) wanted to wish farewell to his disciples, he called them together and order them to be for weak creatures and he prohibited them from despots. Then he sent two of them to Antioch. They arrived on the day of a festival. They found the people there had uncovered idols and were worshipping them. They hurried toward them violently. They were put in irons and thrown into prison. When Simon found out about this, he went to Antioch and visited them in the prison. He said, ‘Did I not prohibit you from despots?’

 

Then he left them, and sat with the weak people. He began gradually to discuss matters with them. Then the weak spoke of these things with those who were stronger, while they kept it a most confidential secret. Their words kept ascending until they finally reached the king. He asked, ‘Since when has this man been in my kingdom?’ They said, ‘For two months.’ He said, ‘Bring him to me.’ They brought him.

 

When the king saw Simon, he felt love for him. He said, ‘I will not sit, unless he is beside me.’ Later after having had a frightening dream, he asked Simon about it. Simon gave a good answer that gladdened the king. Later he had another terrifying dream. Simoninterpreted it in such manner that the king’s happiness increased. They conversed thus until Simon came to have influence over the king. Then he said, ‘Verily, there are two men in your jail who insulted you.’ The king said, ‘Yes.’ Simon said, ‘Bring them to me.’ When they were brought to Simon, he asked, ‘What is the god you worship?’ They said, ‘Allah.’ He said, ‘When you ask Him for something, does He hear you, and does He answer you when you pray to Him?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Simon said, ‘I want to ask you something to gain assurance from you about this.’

 

They said, ‘Ask.’ He said, ‘Does He cure the leper?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Bring a leper.’ He said, ‘Ask Him to cure this leper.’ They laid hands upon him and he was cured. Simon said, ‘I, also, can do the like of what you have done.’ Then he said, ‘Bring another.’ Simon laid hands on the leper and he was cured. Another mark remains; if you answer this I will believe in your God.’ They said, ‘What is it?’ He said, ‘Can you revive the dead?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then Simon faced the king and asked, ‘Do you have a dead person who’s passing has been hard for you?’ He said, ‘Yes. My son.’Simon said, ‘Bring us to his grave.’ Then he said, ‘They have put themselves at risk for you.’

 

Then they turned to the grave and raised their hands [in prayer], as did Simon, then suddenly the grave cracked open and the youth stood up. He faced his father who said to him, ‘How are you?’ He said, ‘I was dead, and terrified, when I understood there to be three persons standing before Allah with their hands raised in prayer to Him. They prayed that He revive me. They were those two and he.’ Simon said, ‘I am a believer in your God.’ The king said, ‘O Simon, I believe in Him in Whom you have come to believe.’ The viziers of the king said, ‘And we believe in Him in Whom our master has come to believe.’ The weak always followed the strong. In Antioch none remained who did not believe.”

(Bihàr, 14, 252)

 

9. Abu Hamzah al-Thumàlí said that he asked Imam Bàqir (‘a) about the exegesis of the ayah,

 

And set out to them an example of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it. When We sent to them two, the rejected both of them, then We strengthened them with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you. (36:13-14).

 

He said, “Allah commissioned two men to go to the people of Antioch. They brought things that were unfamiliar to those people, so the people were coarse with them, arrested them and imprisoned them in the house of idols. So, Allah commissioned a third. He entered the town, and said, ‘Lead me to the gate of the king.’ Whenhe stood before the gate of the king, he said, ‘I am a man who hasworshiped in the deserts of the earth, and I would like to worship the God of the king.’

 

His speech reached the king, who said, ‘Bring him into the house of the gods.’ They brought him in it, and he remained there a year, with his two companions, to whom he said, ‘In this way we transfer a people from one religion to another, not by bungling. Why were you not friendly?’ Then he said to them, ‘Do not admit to knowing me.’

 

Then he was brought before the king. The king said to him, ‘It has reached me that you have been worshipping my god. You will always be my brother, so ask me for what you need.’ He said, ‘I need nothing, O king! But I saw two men there in the house of the gods, so, how is it with them?’ The king said, ‘Those two are men who came here, misled people from my religion, and invited them to a heavenly God.’

 

He said, ‘O king! What a beautiful debate! If they prove right, we will follow them, and if we prove right, they will enter our religion with us. So, whatever is for us is for them, and whatever is against us is against them.’ The king sent for those two. When they came before him, their companion said to them, ‘What do you have for us?’ They said, ‘We came to invite to the worship of Allah, Who created the heavens and earth, Who creates what He wills in the wombs, Who forms as He wills, Who grows the trees and fruits and Who sends rain from the sky.’

 

He said to them, ‘This God of yours, to Whom and to Whose worship you invite, if we bring to you a blind person, can He restore him to health?’ They said, ‘If we ask Him to do it, He will do it, if He wants.’ He said, ‘O king! Bring a blind person who has never seen.’ One such person was brought. He said to them, ‘Supplicate your God to restore his sight.’ They stood up and prayed two prostrations (raq‘atayn). All at once, the eyes of the blind man opened, and he looked to the sky. Simon said, ‘O king! Bring another blind person to me.’ One was brought. Simon prayed one prostration (sajdah), then he lifted his head and all at once the blind person was seeing. Hesaid, ‘O king! A proof for a proof! Bring a cripple.’ One was brought. He said the same [sort of thing as was previously mentioned to them about the blind person]. They prayed and supplicated Allah. All at once the cripple straightened his legs, stood and walked. He said, ‘O king! Bring another cripple to me.’ One was brought. He did the same [thing that he did in the case of the blind person]. The cripple got up. He said, ‘O king! They brought two proofs, and we have brought the like of both of them. One thing remains. If they do this, I will enter their religion with them.’

 

Then he said, ‘O king! Word has reached me that the king had an only son, and that he died. If their God revives him, I will enter their religion with them.’ The king said to him, ‘And I with you, too.’ Then Simon said to them, ‘One thing remains. The son of the king has died, so, supplicate your God to revive him.’ They fell to prostrate themselves to Allah. They lengthened their prostration (sajdah). Then they raised their heads and said to the kind, ‘Send someone to the grave of your son, and you will find that he has been raised from his grave, God willing.’

 

The people went out to look. They found him to have come out of his grave, wiping the dust from his head. They brought him to the king. He recognized his son and said to him, ‘How are you, my son?’ He said, ‘I was dead. Then I saw two men before my Lord, in prostration, supplicating Him that I be revived. Then He revived me.’ He said, ‘O my son! Would you recognize them if you saw them?’ He said, ‘Yes.’  

 

He brought the people out to a field. One by one they passed him, and the father told his son, ‘Look.’ The son said, ‘No. No.’ Then, after many had passed, the king had one of them pass, and the son said, ‘This is one of them,’ and he pointed to him. Then many passed by, until he saw the companion of the other. The son said, ‘This is the other one.’

 

The prophet who was the companion of those two men said, ‘As for me, I believe in your God. I know that what you have brought is the truth.’ The king said, ‘I, also, believe in your God.’ Then all the people of his kingdom believed.

(Bihàr 14, 240-242, 20)

 

10. It is reported that Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said, “Between David and Jesus (‘a) there were four hundred eighty years. There descended to Jesus admonitions, parables and sanctions in the Gospel. There was no retaliation nor commands for punishments, nor obligatory inheritance.

 

There descended upon him a lightening of what was descended upon Mosesu in the Torah, and this is what He said, reporting the words of Jesus to the Children of Israel,

 

Likewise confirming the truth of the Torah that is before me, and to make lawful to you certain things that were forbidden unto you. (3:50).

 

And Jesus ordered those who were with him, who followed him and who were believers to believe in the law of the Torah and the laws of all the prophets and the Gospel.” And he [Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a)] said, “Jesus (‘a) waited for seven or eight years, then he informed them [the people] of what they ate and what they stored in their houses. And he stood up among them, and made the dead to live, and cured the born blind and the leper, and he taught them the Torah. Then Allah descended the Gospel upon him when He wanted to bring an authority for them.

 

And he [Jesus (‘a)] sent a man to Rome. All he treated were cured of their illnesses, and he cured the born blind and the leper, until it was mentioned to the king there. So, he was brought to him. He [the king] said, ‘Do you make well the born blind and the leper?’ He said,

‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Bring a youth who has no eyes and has never seen anything.’ He took two hazelnuts and looked at them sharply, then he put them in his eye sockets, and prayed. At once he became seeing. The king sat him next to himself, and said, ‘Be with me, and do not leave my city.’ He conferred upon him the best positions.

 

Then the Messiah sent another, and taught him something for reviving the dead. He entered Rome, and said, ‘I am more knowledgeable than the physician of the king.’ This was mentioned to the king. He said, ‘Kill him.’ The [first] physician said, ‘Do not do it. Bring him. If you find him to be in error, you will kill him. In that case, you would have authority to do so.’

 

He was brought to him. He said, ‘I revive the dead.’ The king mounted and so did the people and they went to the grave of the son of the king who had recently died. The apostle of the Messiah prayed, and the first apostle who was the physician of the king said, ‘Amen.’ The grave split open and the son of the king emerged. Then he came walking until he sat in the lap of his father.

 

Then he said, ‘O my son! Who revived you?’ Then he looked and said, ‘This one and that one.’ Then they stood and said, ‘We are messengers to you from the Messiah. You had not listened to his messengers. You even ordered them to be killed when they came to you.’ Then he obeyed and glorified the affair of the Messiah until the enemies of Allah said what they said about him and the Jews belied him and wanted to kill him.

(Bihàr, 14, 251, 43)

 

11. It is reported that Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) raised John the son of Zachariah among twelve apostles to teach the people and to prohibit them from marrying their sisters’ daughters. The king of those people was attracted to the daughter of his sister and he wanted to marry her. When her mother was informed that Johnu had prohibited this kind of marriage, she brought her daughter adorned to the king. When the king saw her, he asked her what she desired. She said, “I want you to slaughter John the son of Zachariah.” He said, “Ask me for something else.” She said, “I will not ask you for anything but this.”

 

When she refused him, he sent for a basin and sent for John. Then he slaughtered him. A drop of his blood fell at once to the earth and the stain of it remained until Bukht Nassar reigned over them. Then an old man of the children of Israel came to him and guided him to that blood. Bukht Nassar decided to kill the children of Israel because of that blood until the stain would be obliterated. So he killed seventy thousand for this in one year until it was obliterated.

(Bihàr, 14, 182, 24)

 

12. Abu Ja‘far (‘a) said, “The foremost are four: the murdered son of Adam, the foremost of the community of Moses, who was a believer among the Pharaoh’s people, the foremost of the community of Jesus, who was Habíb the carpenter, and the foremost of the community of Muhammad, who was ‘Alí ibn Abí Tàlib (‘a).”

(Bihàr, 66, 156)

 

 
So yes, They're where Imams between Jesus Peace be upon Him and prophet Muhammad (pbuh), In Islamic belief, the disciples (Arabic الحواريون al-Hawāriyūn) of Jesus were Muslims and they themselves testified to being Muslims. Muslims also believe that all of Jesus's disciples were from the Children of Israel, in accordance with their belief that Jesus was the last prophet and messenger sent to guide the Children of Israel.

and this is proved in the following verses:


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا كُونُوا أَنصَارَ اللَّهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ لِلْحَوَارِيِّينَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّهِ ۖ فَآمَنَت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَكَفَرَت طَّائِفَةٌ ۖ فَأَيَّدْنَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَىٰ عَدُوِّهِمْ فَأَصْبَحُوا ظَاهِرِينَ
 

O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.  (61:14)

also in:

 

فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسَىٰ مِنْهُمُ الْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]. (3:52)

 

____________________________________________________________

To your Question that, Can an Imam receive Wahi? your answer to this is simply no, as you know The Quran has been revealed through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and he is the last prophet, so my dear friend no. There is no doubt that when the verse:


"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

the religion completed. Allah revealed Quran as well as the Shari'ah(Divine law) ONLY to the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and non of such things was revealed to Imam Ali  (as). If Imam Ali was inspired (ILHAM) it had nothing to do with religious commandments; it was rather about what happened and what will happen.

There are many methods that Allah may inform His servants of something. One way is revelation (WAHY). The other way is inspiration (ILHAM). By inspiration, Allah induces the knowledge into the heart of His servant.

This is unanimously held by the all the Islamic Schools.

But do you really think revelation (WAHY) is only for the prophets and the messengers? If yes, then you have contradicted Quran, for Quran confirms that Allah sent revelation (WAHY) to the mother of Moses. The mother of Moses was neither a prophet nor a messenger. Agreed? Allah revealed to her to leave her son in the river so that Pharaoh's soldier could take it to the Palace:

And We REVEALED to the mother of Moses: Suckle (thy child) but when thou hast fears about him cast him into the river but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee and We shall make him one of Our apostles. (Quran 28:7)

Notice that Quran straightforwardly uses the word WAHY (revelation). Here, Yusuf Ali has translated the word WAHY into inspiration. But Quran uses WAHY (revelation), and not ILHAM (inspiration). WAHY and ILHAM are two different things.

However one thing which is clear is that the revelations to those who were neither prophet nor messenger, did NOT have anything to do with Shari'ah(divine law). It did NOT have anything to do with religious practices etc. Rather, It was an order to what way to choose at the time of confusion and/or informing what has happened or what will happen.

So we can conclude that even revelation has different types. Only the revelation to Prophets and messengers is related to Shari'ah (divine law) and new religious practices, while others do NOT receive this type of revelation.

Remark: Quran also uses the word WAHY for non-human beings, but I am not concerned about that. I was focusing on different types of WAHY for human being only.

About our Imams: There are twelve Imams (Guides) after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). Prophet mentioned that the number of his successors are twelve, and al-Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad, ... recorded that.

The first of them, Imam Ali, got his knowledge of religion and the Divine Laws from Prophet Muhammad DIRECTLY. Later Imams got it from the preceding Imams. There was NO revelation of Divine Law (concerning oneself or people) after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). Allah may inform something to his appointed Imam, but the information is NOT any how related to Divine Law since the religion is complete. The information is only related to what happened and what will happen.


But so, Do Imams Meet Angels?

Well, Also, according to Quran, talking to angels is NOT exclusive to prophets and messengers. Allah mentioned in Quran that Mary (the mother of Jesus) talked to angels, and angels talked to him. Look at Quran, to see the conversation of Mary and the angels:

"Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (Quran 3:45)"

There is a whole conversation between Mary and the angel. See a couple of verses before and after the above verse. Mary  (as) was neither a prophet nor a messenger, yet she talked to angels. However the communication of Mary with angels had nothing to do with Shari'ah (Divine Law). It did not have anything to do with religious practices. Rather it was news to what is about to happen, and instructions of what to do.

In this connection, also see verses 11:69-73 where angels talked to the wife of Abraham and gave her the glad tiding that she is pregnant of prophet Isaac  (as).

Even Sunnis claim that Imran Ibn al-Husayn al-Khuza'i (d. 52/672) who was one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF), was VISITED by angels, greeted by angels, SHOOK HANDS with angels and saw them, only being left by them for a short period after which the angels returned to him till the end of his life.

Sunni references:
(1) Sahih Muslim, V4, pp 47-48
(2) Also commentaries of Sahih Muslim by al-Nabawi, V8, P206, and by al-Abi
and al-Sanusi, V3, P361.
(3) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V4, PP 427-428
(4) Sunan Darimi, V2, P305
(5) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, V3, P472
(6) Tabaqat, by Ib Sa'd, V7, part 1, P6
(7) al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, V3, P1208
(8) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, V4, P138
(9) Jami'ul Usul, by Ibn Athir, V7, P551
(10) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V3, PP 26-27
(11) Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V8, P126
(12) Fathul al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V12, P261
(13) Sharh al-Mawahib, by al-Qastalani, V7, P133


There is no shadow of doubt that Imam Ali  (as) was "Muhaddath" which means"a person who has been spoken to". Not only him, but also, all the twelve Imams as well as Lady Fatimah  (as) were Muhaddath/Muhaddathah.

Based on the authentic Sunni traditions, it is narrated by Abu Huraira and Aisha that:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.675 (Arabic-English Version)
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be 'Muhaddathun' (i.e. persons who can guess things that come true later on, like those persons have been inspired by a divine power), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."


Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.38 (Arabic-English Version)
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Among the nations before you there used to be people who were inspired (though they were not prophets). And if there is any of such a persons amongst my followers, it is ..."

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Among the nation of Bani Israel who lived before you, there were men who used to be inspired with guidance though they were not prophets, and if there is any of such persons amongst my followers, it is ..."



Also:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "Verily among the nations before your time there have been Muhaddathoon (those who have been spoken to), and if there is one among my people it is ...” Also the Messenger of Allah said: "Verily among the Children of Israel before your time there have been men who have been spoken to (rijalun yukallamoon) who were NOT prophets and if there is one among my people it is ..."

Sunni reference:
- Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic version, v4, p211, v5, p15, and also its
commentaries:
- Fat'h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v7, p324, v8, pp 49-51
- Umdatul Qari, by al-Ayni, v16, pp 55,198-199
- Irshad al-Sari, by Qastalani, v6, p103
- Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, part 7, p115, and its commentaries:
- Sharh Nawawi (sahih Muslim), part 15, p166
- Sharh al-Abi, part 6, pp 203-205
- Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p622, and its commentaries:
- Aridah al-Ahwadhi, by Ibn al-Arabi, v13, pp 149-150
- Tuhfah al-Ahwadhi, by al-Mubarak Furi, v10, pp 182-183
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, p55

NOTE: I have deleted the name of the companion of the Prophet mentioned in the above traditions since his being Muhaddath is not confirmed by the Shia. Concerning the opinion of the Shia see al-Ghadir, by al-Amini, v5, pp 42-54, v8, pp 90-91.

It is mentioned in the above Sunni commentaries that the meaning of Muhaddath here is a person who is divinely inspired, who meets the angels and is spoken to by them, and who is informed of the news of Ghayb (not to be confused with the knowledge of Ghayb which belongs to Allah only) which is the information about the present time and the future, and that the companions who are mentioned in those traditions had these attributes!!!

The conclusion is that the existence of Muhaddathoon (those who are spoken to) is a matter attested by ALL Muslims and that it is not something contrary to the fundamentals of Islam. The above Sunni documents also give evidence to the fact that Muhaddathoon are NOT prophets and they did NOT bring Shari'ah (divine law) from Allah to people.

 

 

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Statement:

2. Regarding this question I read your post FULLY and replied to you and I will reply again with the exact same answer 
I answered you, yet you totally ignored my answer. MY ANSWER WAS: In the second paragraph first line of your reply YOU SAID:
We find in the Qur’ãn that whenever it mentions Imãmah it puts guidance side by side MY ANSWER: I straight away refuted this as I am now convinced your islamic knowledge is indeed extremely low MY ANSWER WAS: Are you sure when imamat is mentioned it puts guidance side by side?? I then directed you to a verse in the quran 28:41 where imam is mentioned and then says they call you towards FIRE!!!

 

reply: You did not mention the full verse and chapter my dear friend here is Tafsi

Referring the to people of Farawn, and not the Divinely appointed. as we see the explanation in the following:
 

Allah tells:

فَلَمَّا جَاءهُم مُّوسَى بِآيَاتِنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالُوا ... top.gif

Then when Musa came to them with Our Clear Ayat, they said:

Allah tells us how Musa and his brother Harun came before Fir`awn and his chiefs, and showed them the clear miracles and overwhelming proof that Allah had given them to confirm the truth of what they were saying about Allah being One and that His commandments were to be followed.

Fir`awn and his chiefs saw that with their own eyes and realized that it was certainly from Allah, but because of their disbelief and sin they resorted to stubbornness and false arguments. This was because they were too evil and arrogant to follow the truth. They said:

... مَا هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُّفْتَرًى ...

This is nothing but invented magic.

meaning, fabricated and made up. They wanted to oppose him by means of their own tricks and their position and power, but this did not work.

... وَمَا سَمِعْنَا بِهَذَا فِي آبَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ ﴿٣٦﴾

Never did we hear of this among our fathers of old.

They were referring worshipping Allah Alone, with no partner or associate. They said: "We have never seen anyone among our forefathers following this religion; we have only ever seen people associating other gods in worship with Allah.

وَقَالَ مُوسَى ...top.gif

Musa said:

Musa said in response to them:

... رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِمَن جَاء بِالْهُدَى مِنْ عِندِهِ ...

My Lord knows best him who came with guidance from Him,

meaning, `of me and you, and He will decide between me and you.'

So he said:

... وَمَن تَكُونُ لَهُ عَاقِبَةُ الدَّارِ ...

and whose will be the happy end in the Hereafter. 

meaning, who will be supported and will prevail.

... إِنَّهُ لَا يُفْلِحُ الظَّالِمُونَ ﴿٣٧﴾

Verily, the wrongdoers will not be successful.

refers to the idolators who associate others in worship with Allah.
 

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَٰهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰ إِلَٰهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ
Sahih International
And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

28_39.png
وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ
Sahih International
And he was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us.

28_40.png
فَأَخَذْنَاهُ وَجُنُودَهُ فَنَبَذْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ ۖ فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ
Sahih International
So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.

28_41.png
وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ
Sahih International
And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped.

28_42.png
وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَٰذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُم مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ
Sahih International

And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised. 

 

 

 

 

Allah tells:

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ ... top.gif

Fir`awn said:

Allah tells us of Fir`awn's disbelief and wrongdoing, and how he falsely claimed divinity for his evil self, may Allah curse him.

فَاسْتَخَفَّ قَوْمَهُ فَأَطَاعُوهُ

Thus he fooled his people, and they obeyed him. (43:54)

He called on his people to recognize his divinity, and they responded, because of their weak and foolish minds.

So, he said:

... يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي ...

O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me.

Allah tells us about Fir`awn:

فَحَشَرَ فَنَادَى

فَقَالَ أَنَاْ رَبُّكُمُ الاٌّعْلَى

فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الاٌّخِرَةِ وَالاٍّوْلَى

إِنَّ فِى ذَلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَى

Then he gathered (his people) and cried aloud, saying: "I am your lord, most high.''

So Allah, seized him with punishment for his last and first transgression. Verily, in this is an instructive admonition for whosoever fears Allah. (79:23-26)

meaning: he brought his people together and called to them in a loud voice, shouting that, and they responded to him obediently. So Allah took revenge on him, and made him a lesson to others in this world and the Hereafter. He even confronted Musa with that, and said:

لَئِنِ اتَّخَذْتَ إِلَـهَاً غَيْرِى لأَجْعَلَنَّكَ مِنَ الْمَسْجُونِينَ

If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners. (26:29)

... فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَى إِلَهِ مُوسَى ...

So kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarh in order that I may look at the God of Musa;

He commanded his minister and adviser Haman to bake bricks for him, i.e., to make bricks in order to build a Sarh, a exalted towering palace.

This is like the Ayah,

وَقَالَ فَرْعَوْنُ يهَـمَـنُ ابْنِ لِى صَرْحاً لَّعَـلِّى أَبْلُغُ الاٌّسْبَـبَ

أَسْبَـبَ السَّمَـوَتِ فَأَطَّلِعَ إِلَى إِلَـهِ مُوسَى وَإِنِّى لاّظُنُّهُ كَـذِباً وَكَـذَلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِفِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَصُدَّ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَمَا كَـيْدُ فِرْعَوْنَ إِلاَّ فِى تَبَابٍ

And Fir`awn said: "O Haman! Build me a Sarh that I may arrive at the ways -- the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the God of Musa, but verily, I think him to be a liar.''

Thus it was made fair seeming, in Fir`awn's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the path; and the plot of Fir`awn led to nothing but loss and destruction. (40:36-37)

Fir`awn built this tower, which was the highest structure ever seen on earth, because he wanted to show his people that Musa was lying when he claimed that there was a God other than Fir`awn.

Fir`awn said:

... وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ ﴿٣٨﴾

and verily, I think that he (Musa) is one of the liars.

meaning, `when he says that there is a lord other than me.'

The issue was not whether Allah had sent Musa, because he did not acknowledge the existence of the Creator in the first place. On the contrary, he said: وَمَا رَبُّ الْعَـلَمِينَ (And what is the Lord of Al-`Alamin) (26:23) and: لَئِنِ اتَّخَذْتَ إِلَـهَاً غَيْرِى لأَجْعَلَنَّكَ مِنَ الْمَسْجُونِينَ (If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners). (26:29) and he said: يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي (O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me).

This was the view of Ibn Jarir.

And Allah tells:

وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ ﴿٣٩﴾ top.gif

And he and his armies were arrogant in the land, without right, and they thought that they would never return to Us.

means, they were arrogant oppressors who spread much mischief in the land, and they believed that there would be no Resurrection.

فَصَبَّ عَلَيْهِمْ رَبُّكَ سَوْطَ عَذَابٍ

إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَبِالْمِرْصَادِ

So, your Lord poured on them different kinds of severe torment. Verily, your Lord is Ever Watchful (over them). (89:13-14)

Allah says here:

فَأَخَذْنَاهُ وَجُنُودَهُ فَنَبَذْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ ... top.gif

So, We seized him and his armies, and We threw them all into the sea.

meaning, `We drowned them in the sea in a single morning, and not one of them was left.'

... فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿٤٠﴾

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ ... top.gif

So, behold what was the end of the wrongdoers. And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire.

for those who followed them and took the same path as they did, rejecting the Messengers and denying the Creator.

... وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ ﴿٤١﴾

and on the Day of Resurrection, they will not be helped.

their humiliation in this world is combined with and connected to their humiliation in the Hereafter, as Allah says:

أَهْلَكْنَـهُمْ فَلاَ نَـصِرَ لَهُمْ

We have destroyed them. And there was none to help them. (47:13)

وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً ... top.gif

And We made a curse to follow them in this world,

Allah decreed that they and their king Fir`awn should be cursed by the believers among His servants who follow His Messengers, just as in this world they were cursed by the Prophets and their followers.

... وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُم مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ ﴿٤٢﴾

and on the Day of Resurrection, they will be among disgraced.

Qatadah said,

"This Ayah is like the Ayah,

وَأُتْبِعُواْ فِى هَـذِهِ لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ بِئْسَ الرِّفْدُ الْمَرْفُودُ

They were pursued by a curse in this (life) and on the Day of Resurrection. Evil indeed is the gift given. (11:99)''


- Tafsir Ibn Kathir.


http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/028%20Qasas.htm

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In this case he was not referring to Immamah. ( Divinely appointed)
and yes thank you very much. My Islamic Knowledge is low.

Ahlamodllah  


Statement:
3. Imamat is USUL AD DIN if there was a verse telling us that there will be imams for this ummah then by rejecting I would become kafir. 
Therefore as there is no verse in quran where Allah says that there will be imams after prophet your aqidah is on a rocky edge.

 
You are very Good at Insulting, but you fail to prove anything, and yet you have provide no Informative proof. Very Welldone.
The Quran no doubt was Revealed in the Time of the prophet (pbuh) and the verse I mentioned earlier Where Pointing at Imamah.
You firstly did not reply to the following:

(1) verse of Wilayah (look through the posts)
(2) My questions Considering the 12 mentioned In Bukhari

(3) considering the verse of Ulu'Alamr
(4) Bukhari and Muslim, about Ahlulbayt
(5) asked you where in the Quran does it point to "Shura."
(6) did the previous prophets do Shura to elect an Imam ( you did not answer me)
(7) you ignored my previous posts about the buring of the house Fatima Al Zahra
(8) you did nit reply to the special post I made for you (Proving Imam Ali (as) is the Khalifa and not Abu bakr)
(9) you did not reply to the Imam Mahdi (as) post, where I proved he is from Ahlulbayt (as)
(10) you completely ignored the Hadith of Manizal, I proved this to you, yet no reply.
(11) you ignored the Hadith about the "2 Khalifas, Prophet (pbuh) left" (the saying in Ghadir Khum)
(12) you did not reply, when I discussed (Muwala in the meaning Master and Khalifa)
(13) You haven't refuted anything from the 6 Sahihs (your books) that I mentioned.
(14) you Defiantly did not read.


__________________________________________________

 
We read in Holy Quran:
“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you (min kum).”(Qur’an 4:59).

This verse deems obedience to the Ul’il Amr obligatory
All societies maintain law and order via the imposition of rules, with someone at the helm overseeing the process to ensure the maintaining of a healthy society. It is common sense for this to be obtained it is incumbent on us to obey those in authrity whether that is from the Head of State down to an officer issuing orders on the ground. The Sunni Ulema have according deemed obedience to the Ul’il Amr to be obligatory on the Ummah.

 

Mawardi writes:
“It is the law however, which has delegated the affairs to those who wield authority over them in matters of the Deen, Allah, May He be exalted, has said:
“O you who believe, obey Allah, his Rasul and those in authority amongst you”

Thus he has imposed on us obedience to those in authority that is those who have command over us”

Al-Ahkam al Sultaniyyah, Chapter 1 pages 10-11 (Ta-Ha publishers, London)

Ibn Khaldun comments on the verse as follows:

“It has been established that the institution (of the imamate) is necessary by general consensus (it must be added that the institution of imamate) is a community duty and is left to the discretion of all competent Muslims. It is their obligation to see to it that (the imamate) is set up, and everybody has to obey (the imam) in accordance with the verse of the Qur’an, “obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and the people in authority among you”” 

 

Muqaddimah page 392.

The Sunni scholars of Tafseer in their commentaries of this verse have said that the term Ul’il Amr is of general application, not specific. The Mufassireen have stated that the terminology incorporates various scenarios subject to the Shari’ah and incorporates various aspects of leadership. Since we are discussing the topic of Imamate we will analyse three key positions that the Sunni commentators have incorporated as Ul’il Amr:

  • Those in army authority positions.
  • Political Leaders, this incorporates the Head of State down to officers implementing rules and regulation at a ground level
  • The Ulema – Scholars of Deen.

The following Sunni scholars have added reference to these categories of Ul’il Amr in their commentaries of Surah Nisa verse 59.

It is logical that all three types of Ul’il Amr are required to ensure the smooth running of a stable health Islamic society. Political Leaders are there to administer the running of the Government. The army leadership provide a protectorate role, preventing anarchy within the state through law enforcement and defending it from attack. The religious clergy are present to provide a religious steer there to ensure that the running of the country is done so in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah.

 

I answered this Question the 3 Previous post. Please go check. 


In addition First I would like to clear up a misconception among the Sunni Muslims and Shi'ah: the twelve Imams are not a continued prophethood. The Imams do not receive revelations, rather, they inherited the knowledge of the Prophet Muhammed (s) and used the very same Qur'an that we use today. Revelations belong to the Prophets and Messengers, and Muhammed (s) was the seal of Prophets. The Imams were simply guides for the Muslim Ummah.

The number one widely used criticism to the A'immah (Imamate, 12 Caliphs, Succession, etc.) theory is that the Qur'an does not clearly mention their advent. It is true that we do not find the name of Ali ibn abi Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in the Qur'an, or that of any other Imam. However, I'll have to disagree that the Succession has not been mentioned at all in the Qur'an.

Let's take this slow and cover most of the points:

Ali (s) in the Qur'an

"And among men there is one who sells his self seeking the pleasure of God; and verily, God is affectionate to His (faithful) servants" (Noble Qur'an, 2:207)

This verse is unanimously speaking about Imam Ali (as), and our Sunni Muslim brothers and their scholars agree with this. It is referring to the time when Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã slept in the bed of the Prophet Muhammed (s) to prevent his capture. Ali faithfully slept in his bed, for God's pleasure and that of his cousin and master, and when the Quraysh barged in, they saw that the Prophet Muhammed  (pbuh) had already escaped.

There are many other verses I can point out, but before this blog gets too long, let us move on:

The Authority:

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those vested with authority from among you." (4:59)

Let's take a close look at this ayah for a moment. When God addresses us with "O you who believe", He is of course talking to the mu'min Muslims about a matter in which we must all abide. He then says, obey God, obey His Messenger (the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]) and those vested with authority from among you.

Who could the third group be? Considering this ayah is talking to Muslims about obedience, and then mentions obedience to God and His Messenger, the third group must also be spiritual. It is put as the tertiary; the third model we must follow.

Traditional Sunni Muslims say that the verse refers simply to those we have in charge, whether that be our caliphs, governments, leaders, etc. The problem with this interpretation is that our leaders can be misguided and corrupt - God does not want us to follow evil leaders. Rather, we should do our part to make political leaders just, fair, and active by any means necessary.

The other problem is that in the verse, of the three parties (God, Muhammed, Authority among the Ummah), the first two are an unquestionable religious authority. Why would God name a third, possibly-corrupt authority that we must follow?

Rather, this is referring to the A'immah - because obeying them is obeying the Messenger, and obeying the Messenger is obeying God. Which makes sense in the context of the ayah. Political leaders would not.

The Hadiths

The Qur'an is not a book which emphasizes details, but rather it is one that reviews the point of our existence - to worship God, to be good to our fellow comrades, and to prepare for one of two final destinations on Judgment Day. The Qur'an primarily talks about these three points, and recites parables to give examples of Prophets and good men and women.

However, for details beyond the core of the religion, one must explore the Sunnah (tradition) of the Prophet Muhammed (s). The Qur'an and Sunnah go hand in hand, for example, the Qur'an tells us to worship, and the Sunnah teaches us how.

So the Sunnah instructs us on how to conduct our private life, how to dress, sleep, eat, and even gives us prophecies of the future and instructs us on how to create an ideal Muslim society. Therefore, the Sunnah is where you find the real meat concerning the A'immah.

Let's take a look at a Sunni Muslim source --> Sahih Muslim. Sahih Muslim is a respected compilation of the traditions of the Prophet (s), and the third most important source in Sunni Islam (the first two being the Noble Qur'an and Sahih Bukhari).

Sahih Muslim's volume named "Kitab al Imara" (Book of Government) has got some very interesting hadiths. Let's take a look:

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said;

" The Caliphate (khalifah, Arabic word for "succession") will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them... All of them will be from Quraysh" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4477)

Very simply put, the Prophet said that there will be 12 Caliphs (successors) from Quraysh tribe. If we look into history, we see that there were dozens of Caliphs, far more than twelve. Sunni Muslim scholars have been disagreeing about the interpretation of this hadith for thousands of years now, debating over which of their Caliphs would count towards the "twelve".

The most popular interpretation is that the twelve would include the first 4 Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali), plus the 8 which succeeded them. But many problems arose with this interpretation, such as the fact that Imam Mehdi would not be included in the twelve, despite his integral role in the end times. Some Sunni Muslims will also say that Yazid was unjust in his actions and undeserving of the Caliphate.

These 12 Caliphs can definitely only be the 12 Imams, starting with Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and ending with the Mehdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

The second hadith I can use to prove this another hadith in the same Kitab al Imara, which states:

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said:

"The Caliphate will remain among the Quraysh even if only two persons are left on earth" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4476)

According to Sunni Islam, there is no Caliphate today at all. Historically, the Muslim leadership had been shattered and today we are left with no political leader. However, this hadith still stands, and indicates that we indeed do have a Successor to the prophet among us.

This can only be Imam Mehdi, who is in occultation and will return when God wills it. Even if only two people are left on earth, Imam Mehdi will be there, waiting.

Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã as the natural successor to the Prophet Muhammed (s)

In the Sunni Muslim hadith compilation "Tirmidhi", which is the third most important source for hadiths, the Prophet Muhammed (s) announced the Muslims' allegiance to Ali ibn abi Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

The Holy Prophet (s) held up the hand of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã at Ghadir Khum, and said "Whoever I am his maula (leader, friend, master), Ali is his maula [too]! O God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." (Tirmidhi, V2, p298, v5, P63)

This was believed to have been said during the Prophet's "farewell pilgrimage". The hadith has been viewed as "Sahih" by hundreds of Sunni Muslim sources, including some very big names such as Ibn Maja and Ahmed ibn Hanbal.

Therefore, anyone who takes the Prophet (s) as his master, which all Muslims do, must therefore take Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã as his master as well. Considering that this was said at his fairwell ceremony, and considering Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã had lived long after the Prophet (s) had died, we can therefore assume that Ali was the maula of the Muslims, therefore making him the successor of the Prophet (s).

One must understand that by "Successor" I do not mean the Imams were in any way better than the Prophet Muhammed (s). Astaghfirallah, because Muhammed (s) was the seal of prophets, the praised one, the loved, the prophesied, and was the cradle of Allah's final testament, the Qur'an. The Imams were merely Muslims like ourselves, set to keep us on the straight path and lead us into the troubling times which pursued after the death of the Prophet.

God willingly, we will one day see the return of the twelve Imam, as well as the return of our Messiah Jesus (as)

May God bless you for your patience, thanks for reading my blog, and please do not forget me in your du'a. Wa-salamu alaykum.


4. Looooooolz YOU are the one that said harun a.s wasNOT a prophet whereas I said harun a.s WAS a prophet, yet YOU have the nerve and the cheek to say people will laugh at ME!! I can direct you to the post where you said it, OR you could save yourself the embarrassment and admit YOU need an islamic education.

 

What on earth? heavens no. Harun is a prophet and and a successor (as). I also proved to you, the Hadith of Manizal.
I'm waiting for your baseless Refutation. And please don't steer the Argument. I also gave you a clear answer that Rejecting

​Imamah Does not entirely mean you are kaffer brother. But your religion is not complete. Take for example You say No God but God

and Muhammad Prophet is his last messenger. But if one says the Shahadatayen, but does not Preform Salat, then he is not entirely

not a Muslim, not he is, but he is not considered as a "Moemen". The same thing goes with Wilaya.

    


Wa al salam.
 

 

post-83202-0-15185700-1376234990_thumb.j

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Hold up....

Let me get this straight.

You say be denying an USUL AD DIN I can still remain a Muslim??

Brilliant, so there is no problem me denying angels?? Or yawm al qiyamah??

Right??

 

I  again quote your statements where you are confined in circles:

 

1- You consider Immamat as Usul deen (12 Imams)

2- On the other hand you deny Imam Ali as caliph, Ulil Amr including 12 Imams from Ali to Al Mahdi.

 

So you have contradictory beliefs regarding religion, what should a mindful can think about this illogical approach?

You need to clarify this first.

 

Regarding Immamat and Usul Deen i have clarified in the post no 98, you should read it agian.

 

Moreover,  If someone likes to be called as kafir I have no objection on his own choice, however I have certainly clarified my opinion as given in the last 4 posts.

 

Regards.

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Statement:

2. Regarding this question I read your post FULLY and replied to you and I will reply again with the exact same answer 

I answered you, yet you totally ignored my answer. MY ANSWER WAS: In the second paragraph first line of your reply YOU SAID:

We find in the Qur’ãn that whenever it mentions Imãmah it puts guidance side by side MY ANSWER: I straight away refuted this as I am now convinced your islamic knowledge is indeed extremely low MY ANSWER WAS: Are you sure when imamat is mentioned it puts guidance side by side?? I then directed you to a verse in the quran 28:41 where imam is mentioned and then says they call you towards FIRE!!!

 

reply: You did not mention the full verse and chapter my dear friend here is Tafsi

Referring the to people of Farawn, and not the Divinely appointed. as we see the explanation in the following:

 

Allah tells:

فَلَمَّا جَاءهُم مُّوسَى بِآيَاتِنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالُوا ... top.gif

Then when Musa came to them with Our Clear Ayat, they said:

Allah tells us how Musa and his brother Harun came before Fir`awn and his chiefs, and showed them the clear miracles and overwhelming proof that Allah had given them to confirm the truth of what they were saying about Allah being One and that His commandments were to be followed.

Fir`awn and his chiefs saw that with their own eyes and realized that it was certainly from Allah, but because of their disbelief and sin they resorted to stubbornness and false arguments. This was because they were too evil and arrogant to follow the truth. They said:

... مَا هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُّفْتَرًى ...

This is nothing but invented magic.

meaning, fabricated and made up. They wanted to oppose him by means of their own tricks and their position and power, but this did not work.

... وَمَا سَمِعْنَا بِهَذَا فِي آبَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ ﴿٣٦﴾

Never did we hear of this among our fathers of old.

They were referring worshipping Allah Alone, with no partner or associate. They said: "We have never seen anyone among our forefathers following this religion; we have only ever seen people associating other gods in worship with Allah.

وَقَالَ مُوسَى ...top.gif

Musa said:

Musa said in response to them:

... رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِمَن جَاء بِالْهُدَى مِنْ عِندِهِ ...

My Lord knows best him who came with guidance from Him,

meaning, `of me and you, and He will decide between me and you.'

So he said:

... وَمَن تَكُونُ لَهُ عَاقِبَةُ الدَّارِ ...

and whose will be the happy end in the Hereafter. 

meaning, who will be supported and will prevail.

... إِنَّهُ لَا يُفْلِحُ الظَّالِمُونَ ﴿٣٧﴾

Verily, the wrongdoers will not be successful.

refers to the idolators who associate others in worship with Allah.

 

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَٰهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰ إِلَٰهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ
Sahih International
And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

 

28_39.png
وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ
Sahih International
And he was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us.

 

28_40.png
فَأَخَذْنَاهُ وَجُنُودَهُ فَنَبَذْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ ۖ فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ
Sahih International
So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.

 

28_41.png
وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ
Sahih International
And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped.

 

28_42.png
وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَٰذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُم مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ
Sahih International

And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised. 

 

 

 

 

Allah tells:

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ ... top.gif

Fir`awn said:

Allah tells us of Fir`awn's disbelief and wrongdoing, and how he falsely claimed divinity for his evil self, may Allah curse him.

فَاسْتَخَفَّ قَوْمَهُ فَأَطَاعُوهُ

Thus he fooled his people, and they obeyed him. (43:54)

He called on his people to recognize his divinity, and they responded, because of their weak and foolish minds.

So, he said:

... يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي ...

O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me.

Allah tells us about Fir`awn:

فَحَشَرَ فَنَادَى

فَقَالَ أَنَاْ رَبُّكُمُ الاٌّعْلَى

فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الاٌّخِرَةِ وَالاٍّوْلَى

إِنَّ فِى ذَلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَى

Then he gathered (his people) and cried aloud, saying: "I am your lord, most high.''

So Allah, seized him with punishment for his last and first transgression. Verily, in this is an instructive admonition for whosoever fears Allah. (79:23-26)

meaning: he brought his people together and called to them in a loud voice, shouting that, and they responded to him obediently. So Allah took revenge on him, and made him a lesson to others in this world and the Hereafter. He even confronted Musa with that, and said:

لَئِنِ اتَّخَذْتَ إِلَـهَاً غَيْرِى لأَجْعَلَنَّكَ مِنَ الْمَسْجُونِينَ

If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners. (26:29)

... فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَى إِلَهِ مُوسَى ...

So kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarh in order that I may look at the God of Musa;

He commanded his minister and adviser Haman to bake bricks for him, i.e., to make bricks in order to build a Sarh, a exalted towering palace.

This is like the Ayah,

وَقَالَ فَرْعَوْنُ يهَـمَـنُ ابْنِ لِى صَرْحاً لَّعَـلِّى أَبْلُغُ الاٌّسْبَـبَ

أَسْبَـبَ السَّمَـوَتِ فَأَطَّلِعَ إِلَى إِلَـهِ مُوسَى وَإِنِّى لاّظُنُّهُ كَـذِباً وَكَـذَلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِفِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَصُدَّ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَمَا كَـيْدُ فِرْعَوْنَ إِلاَّ فِى تَبَابٍ

And Fir`awn said: "O Haman! Build me a Sarh that I may arrive at the ways -- the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the God of Musa, but verily, I think him to be a liar.''

Thus it was made fair seeming, in Fir`awn's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the path; and the plot of Fir`awn led to nothing but loss and destruction. (40:36-37)

Fir`awn built this tower, which was the highest structure ever seen on earth, because he wanted to show his people that Musa was lying when he claimed that there was a God other than Fir`awn.

Fir`awn said:

... وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ ﴿٣٨﴾

and verily, I think that he (Musa) is one of the liars.

meaning, `when he says that there is a lord other than me.'

The issue was not whether Allah had sent Musa, because he did not acknowledge the existence of the Creator in the first place. On the contrary, he said: وَمَا رَبُّ الْعَـلَمِينَ (And what is the Lord of Al-`Alamin) (26:23) and: لَئِنِ اتَّخَذْتَ إِلَـهَاً غَيْرِى لأَجْعَلَنَّكَ مِنَ الْمَسْجُونِينَ (If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners). (26:29) and he said: يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي (O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me).

This was the view of Ibn Jarir.

And Allah tells:

وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ ﴿٣٩﴾ top.gif

And he and his armies were arrogant in the land, without right, and they thought that they would never return to Us.

means, they were arrogant oppressors who spread much mischief in the land, and they believed that there would be no Resurrection.

فَصَبَّ عَلَيْهِمْ رَبُّكَ سَوْطَ عَذَابٍ

إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَبِالْمِرْصَادِ

So, your Lord poured on them different kinds of severe torment. Verily, your Lord is Ever Watchful (over them). (89:13-14)

Allah says here:

فَأَخَذْنَاهُ وَجُنُودَهُ فَنَبَذْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ ... top.gif

So, We seized him and his armies, and We threw them all into the sea.

meaning, `We drowned them in the sea in a single morning, and not one of them was left.'

... فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿٤٠﴾

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ ... top.gif

So, behold what was the end of the wrongdoers. And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire.

for those who followed them and took the same path as they did, rejecting the Messengers and denying the Creator.

... وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ ﴿٤١﴾

and on the Day of Resurrection, they will not be helped.

their humiliation in this world is combined with and connected to their humiliation in the Hereafter, as Allah says:

أَهْلَكْنَـهُمْ فَلاَ نَـصِرَ لَهُمْ

We have destroyed them. And there was none to help them. (47:13)

وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً ... top.gif

And We made a curse to follow them in this world,

Allah decreed that they and their king Fir`awn should be cursed by the believers among His servants who follow His Messengers, just as in this world they were cursed by the Prophets and their followers.

... وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُم مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ ﴿٤٢﴾

and on the Day of Resurrection, they will be among disgraced.

Qatadah said,

"This Ayah is like the Ayah,

وَأُتْبِعُواْ فِى هَـذِهِ لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ بِئْسَ الرِّفْدُ الْمَرْفُودُ

They were pursued by a curse in this (life) and on the Day of Resurrection. Evil indeed is the gift given. (11:99)''

- Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/028%20Qasas.htm

____________________________________

 

In this case he was not referring to Immamah. ( Divinely appointed)

and yes thank you very much. My Islamic Knowledge is low.

Ahlamodllah  

Statement:

3. Imamat is USUL AD DIN if there was a verse telling us that there will be imams for this ummah then by rejecting I would become kafir. 

Therefore as there is no verse in quran where Allah says that there will be imams after prophet your aqidah is on a rocky edge.

 

You are very Good at Insulting, but you fail to prove anything, and yet you have provide no Informative proof. Very Welldone.

The Quran no doubt was Revealed in the Time of the prophet (pbuh) and the verse I mentioned earlier Where Pointing at Imamah.

You firstly did not reply to the following:

(1) verse of Wilayah (look through the posts)

(2) My questions Considering the 12 mentioned In Bukhari

(3) considering the verse of Ulu'Alamr

(4) Bukhari and Muslim, about Ahlulbayt

(5) asked you where in the Quran does it point to "Shura."

(6) did the previous prophets do Shura to elect an Imam ( you did not answer me)

(7) you ignored my previous posts about the buring of the house Fatima Al Zahra

(8) you did nit reply to the special post I made for you (Proving Imam Ali (as) is the Khalifa and not Abu bakr)

(9) you did not reply to the Imam Mahdi (as) post, where I proved he is from Ahlulbayt (as)

(10) you completely ignored the Hadith of Manizal, I proved this to you, yet no reply.

(11) you ignored the Hadith about the "2 Khalifas, Prophet (pbuh) left" (the saying in Ghadir Khum)

(12) you did not reply, when I discussed (Muwala in the meaning Master and Khalifa)

(13) You haven't refuted anything from the 6 Sahihs (your books) that I mentioned.

(14) you Defiantly did not read.

__________________________________________________

 

We read in Holy Quran:

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you (min kum).”(Qur’an 4:59).

This verse deems obedience to the Ul’il Amr obligatory

All societies maintain law and order via the imposition of rules, with someone at the helm overseeing the process to ensure the maintaining of a healthy society. It is common sense for this to be obtained it is incumbent on us to obey those in authrity whether that is from the Head of State down to an officer issuing orders on the ground. The Sunni Ulema have according deemed obedience to the Ul’il Amr to be obligatory on the Ummah.

 

Mawardi writes:

“It is the law however, which has delegated the affairs to those who wield authority over them in matters of the Deen, Allah, May He be exalted, has said:

“O you who believe, obey Allah, his Rasul and those in authority amongst you”

Thus he has imposed on us obedience to those in authority that is those who have command over us”

Al-Ahkam al Sultaniyyah, Chapter 1 pages 10-11 (Ta-Ha publishers, London)

Ibn Khaldun comments on the verse as follows:

“It has been established that the institution (of the imamate) is necessary by general consensus (it must be added that the institution of imamate) is a community duty and is left to the discretion of all competent Muslims. It is their obligation to see to it that (the imamate) is set up, and everybody has to obey (the imam) in accordance with the verse of the Qur’an, “obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and the people in authority among you”” 

 

Muqaddimah page 392.

The Sunni scholars of Tafseer in their commentaries of this verse have said that the term Ul’il Amr is of general application, not specific. The Mufassireen have stated that the terminology incorporates various scenarios subject to the Shari’ah and incorporates various aspects of leadership. Since we are discussing the topic of Imamate we will analyse three key positions that the Sunni commentators have incorporated as Ul’il Amr:

  •  
  • Those in army authority positions.
  • Political Leaders, this incorporates the Head of State down to officers implementing rules and regulation at a ground level
  • The Ulema – Scholars of Deen.

The following Sunni scholars have added reference to these categories of Ul’il Amr in their commentaries of Surah Nisa verse 59.

It is logical that all three types of Ul’il Amr are required to ensure the smooth running of a stable health Islamic society. Political Leaders are there to administer the running of the Government. The army leadership provide a protectorate role, preventing anarchy within the state through law enforcement and defending it from attack. The religious clergy are present to provide a religious steer there to ensure that the running of the country is done so in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah.

 

I answered this Question the 3 Previous post. Please go check. 

In addition First I would like to clear up a misconception among the Sunni Muslims and Shi'ah: the twelve Imams are not a continued prophethood. The Imams do not receive revelations, rather, they inherited the knowledge of the Prophet Muhammed (s) and used the very same Qur'an that we use today. Revelations belong to the Prophets and Messengers, and Muhammed (s) was the seal of Prophets. The Imams were simply guides for the Muslim Ummah.

The number one widely used criticism to the A'immah (Imamate, 12 Caliphs, Succession, etc.) theory is that the Qur'an does not clearly mention their advent. It is true that we do not find the name of Ali ibn abi Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in the Qur'an, or that of any other Imam. However, I'll have to disagree that the Succession has not been mentioned at all in the Qur'an.

Let's take this slow and cover most of the points:

Ali (s) in the Qur'an

"And among men there is one who sells his self seeking the pleasure of God; and verily, God is affectionate to His (faithful) servants" (Noble Qur'an, 2:207)

This verse is unanimously speaking about Imam Ali (as), and our Sunni Muslim brothers and their scholars agree with this. It is referring to the time when Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã slept in the bed of the Prophet Muhammed (s) to prevent his capture. Ali faithfully slept in his bed, for God's pleasure and that of his cousin and master, and when the Quraysh barged in, they saw that the Prophet Muhammed  (pbuh) had already escaped.

There are many other verses I can point out, but before this blog gets too long, let us move on:

The Authority:

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those vested with authority from among you." (4:59)

Let's take a close look at this ayah for a moment. When God addresses us with "O you who believe", He is of course talking to the mu'min Muslims about a matter in which we must all abide. He then says, obey God, obey His Messenger (the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]) and those vested with authority from among you.

Who could the third group be? Considering this ayah is talking to Muslims about obedience, and then mentions obedience to God and His Messenger, the third group must also be spiritual. It is put as the tertiary; the third model we must follow.

Traditional Sunni Muslims say that the verse refers simply to those we have in charge, whether that be our caliphs, governments, leaders, etc. The problem with this interpretation is that our leaders can be misguided and corrupt - God does not want us to follow evil leaders. Rather, we should do our part to make political leaders just, fair, and active by any means necessary.

The other problem is that in the verse, of the three parties (God, Muhammed, Authority among the Ummah), the first two are an unquestionable religious authority. Why would God name a third, possibly-corrupt authority that we must follow?

Rather, this is referring to the A'immah - because obeying them is obeying the Messenger, and obeying the Messenger is obeying God. Which makes sense in the context of the ayah. Political leaders would not.

The Hadiths

The Qur'an is not a book which emphasizes details, but rather it is one that reviews the point of our existence - to worship God, to be good to our fellow comrades, and to prepare for one of two final destinations on Judgment Day. The Qur'an primarily talks about these three points, and recites parables to give examples of Prophets and good men and women.

However, for details beyond the core of the religion, one must explore the Sunnah (tradition) of the Prophet Muhammed (s). The Qur'an and Sunnah go hand in hand, for example, the Qur'an tells us to worship, and the Sunnah teaches us how.

So the Sunnah instructs us on how to conduct our private life, how to dress, sleep, eat, and even gives us prophecies of the future and instructs us on how to create an ideal Muslim society. Therefore, the Sunnah is where you find the real meat concerning the A'immah.

Let's take a look at a Sunni Muslim source --> Sahih Muslim. Sahih Muslim is a respected compilation of the traditions of the Prophet (s), and the third most important source in Sunni Islam (the first two being the Noble Qur'an and Sahih Bukhari).

Sahih Muslim's volume named "Kitab al Imara" (Book of Government) has got some very interesting hadiths. Let's take a look:

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said;

" The Caliphate (khalifah, Arabic word for "succession") will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them... All of them will be from Quraysh" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4477)

Very simply put, the Prophet said that there will be 12 Caliphs (successors) from Quraysh tribe. If we look into history, we see that there were dozens of Caliphs, far more than twelve. Sunni Muslim scholars have been disagreeing about the interpretation of this hadith for thousands of years now, debating over which of their Caliphs would count towards the "twelve".

The most popular interpretation is that the twelve would include the first 4 Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali), plus the 8 which succeeded them. But many problems arose with this interpretation, such as the fact that Imam Mehdi would not be included in the twelve, despite his integral role in the end times. Some Sunni Muslims will also say that Yazid was unjust in his actions and undeserving of the Caliphate.

These 12 Caliphs can definitely only be the 12 Imams, starting with Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and ending with the Mehdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

The second hadith I can use to prove this another hadith in the same Kitab al Imara, which states:

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said:

"The Caliphate will remain among the Quraysh even if only two persons are left on earth" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4476)

According to Sunni Islam, there is no Caliphate today at all. Historically, the Muslim leadership had been shattered and today we are left with no political leader. However, this hadith still stands, and indicates that we indeed do have a Successor to the prophet among us.

This can only be Imam Mehdi, who is in occultation and will return when God wills it. Even if only two people are left on earth, Imam Mehdi will be there, waiting.

Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã as the natural successor to the Prophet Muhammed (s)

In the Sunni Muslim hadith compilation "Tirmidhi", which is the third most important source for hadiths, the Prophet Muhammed (s) announced the Muslims' allegiance to Ali ibn abi Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

The Holy Prophet (s) held up the hand of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã at Ghadir Khum, and said "Whoever I am his maula (leader, friend, master), Ali is his maula [too]! O God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." (Tirmidhi, V2, p298, v5, P63)

This was believed to have been said during the Prophet's "farewell pilgrimage". The hadith has been viewed as "Sahih" by hundreds of Sunni Muslim sources, including some very big names such as Ibn Maja and Ahmed ibn Hanbal.

Therefore, anyone who takes the Prophet (s) as his master, which all Muslims do, must therefore take Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã as his master as well. Considering that this was said at his fairwell ceremony, and considering Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã had lived long after the Prophet (s) had died, we can therefore assume that Ali was the maula of the Muslims, therefore making him the successor of the Prophet (s).

One must understand that by "Successor" I do not mean the Imams were in any way better than the Prophet Muhammed (s). Astaghfirallah, because Muhammed (s) was the seal of prophets, the praised one, the loved, the prophesied, and was the cradle of Allah's final testament, the Qur'an. The Imams were merely Muslims like ourselves, set to keep us on the straight path and lead us into the troubling times which pursued after the death of the Prophet.

God willingly, we will one day see the return of the twelve Imam, as well as the return of our Messiah Jesus (as)

May God bless you for your patience, thanks for reading my blog, and please do not forget me in your du'a. Wa-salamu alaykum.

4. Looooooolz YOU are the one that said harun a.s wasNOT a prophet whereas I said harun a.s WAS a prophet, yet YOU have the nerve and the cheek to say people will laugh at ME!! I can direct you to the post where you said it, OR you could save yourself the embarrassment and admit YOU need an islamic education.

 

What on earth? heavens no. Harun is a prophet and and a successor (as). I also proved to you, the Hadith of Manizal.

I'm waiting for your baseless Refutation. And please don't steer the Argument. I also gave you a clear answer that Rejecting

​Imamah Does not entirely mean you are kaffer brother. But your religion is not complete. Take for example You say No God but God

and Muhammad Prophet is his last messenger. But if one says the Shahadatayen, but does not Preform Salat, then he is not entirely

not a Muslim, not he is, but he is not considered as a "Moemen". The same thing goes with Wilaya.

    

Wa al salam.

 

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________________  

 

Marvelous effort brother.

 

I ceratinly admire it.

Edited by skamran110

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I hate to be the one to break it to you peace seeker, but your post has no point. For three main reasons:

 

Reason #1 : The Prophet (PBUH) announced Imam Ali (AS) as his successor, yet everyone pretended not to hear. 

Reason #2 :  Imam Ali (AS) announced that the Prophet (PBUH) appointed him as a successor, yet everyone pretended not to have heard.

Reason #3 : Sayeda Fatima (AS) announced that she was witness to the right of Imam Ali (AS) as the successor, yet everyone dismissed her words

 

All THREE were ignored and made liars, all THREE are the holiest people to have ever existed in Islam, therefore you will not change a thing.

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Statement:

2. Regarding this question I read your post FULLY and replied to you and I will reply again with the exact same answer

I answered you, yet you totally ignored my answer. MY ANSWER WAS: In the second paragraph first line of your reply YOU SAID:

We find in the Qur’ãn that whenever it mentions Imãmah it puts guidance side by side MY ANSWER: I straight away refuted this as I am now convinced your islamic knowledge is indeed extremely low MY ANSWER WAS: Are you sure when imamat is mentioned it puts guidance side by side?? I then directed you to a verse in the quran 28:41 where imam is mentioned and then says they call you towards FIRE!!!

reply: You did not mention the full verse and chapter my dear friend here is Tafsi

Referring the to people of Farawn, and not the Divinely appointed. as we see the explanation in the following:

Allah tells:

فَلَمَّا جَاءهُم مُّوسَى بِآيَاتِنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالُوا ... top.gif

Then when Musa came to them with Our Clear Ayat, they said:

Allah tells us how Musa and his brother Harun came before Fir`awn and his chiefs, and showed them the clear miracles and overwhelming proof that Allah had given them to confirm the truth of what they were saying about Allah being One and that His commandments were to be followed.

Fir`awn and his chiefs saw that with their own eyes and realized that it was certainly from Allah, but because of their disbelief and sin they resorted to stubbornness and false arguments. This was because they were too evil and arrogant to follow the truth. They said:

... مَا هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُّفْتَرًى ...

This is nothing but invented magic.

meaning, fabricated and made up. They wanted to oppose him by means of their own tricks and their position and power, but this did not work.

... وَمَا سَمِعْنَا بِهَذَا فِي آبَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ ﴿٣٦﴾

Never did we hear of this among our fathers of old.

They were referring worshipping Allah Alone, with no partner or associate. They said: "We have never seen anyone among our forefathers following this religion; we have only ever seen people associating other gods in worship with Allah.

وَقَالَ مُوسَى ...top.gif

Musa said:

Musa said in response to them:

... رَبِّي أَعْلَمُ بِمَن جَاء بِالْهُدَى مِنْ عِندِهِ ...

My Lord knows best him who came with guidance from Him,

meaning, `of me and you, and He will decide between me and you.'

So he said:

... وَمَن تَكُونُ لَهُ عَاقِبَةُ الدَّارِ ...

and whose will be the happy end in the Hereafter.

meaning, who will be supported and will prevail.

... إِنَّهُ لَا يُفْلِحُ الظَّالِمُونَ ﴿٣٧﴾

Verily, the wrongdoers will not be successful.

refers to the idolators who associate others in worship with Allah.

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَٰهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰ إِلَٰهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ

Sahih International

And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

28:39

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28_39.png

وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ

Sahih International

And he was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us.

28:40

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28_40.png

فَأَخَذْنَاهُ وَجُنُودَهُ فَنَبَذْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ ۖ فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ

Sahih International

So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how was the end of the wrongdoers.

28:41

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28_41.png

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ

Sahih International

And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped.

28:42

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28_42.png

وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَٰذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُم مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ

Sahih International

And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised.

Allah tells:

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ ... top.gif

Fir`awn said:

Allah tells us of Fir`awn's disbelief and wrongdoing, and how he falsely claimed divinity for his evil self, may Allah curse him.

فَاسْتَخَفَّ قَوْمَهُ فَأَطَاعُوهُ

Thus he fooled his people, and they obeyed him. (43:54)

He called on his people to recognize his divinity, and they responded, because of their weak and foolish minds.

So, he said:

... يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي ...

O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me.

Allah tells us about Fir`awn:

فَحَشَرَ فَنَادَى

فَقَالَ أَنَاْ رَبُّكُمُ الاٌّعْلَى

فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الاٌّخِرَةِ وَالاٍّوْلَى

إِنَّ فِى ذَلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَى

Then he gathered (his people) and cried aloud, saying: "I am your lord, most high.''

So Allah, seized him with punishment for his last and first transgression. Verily, in this is an instructive admonition for whosoever fears Allah. (79:23-26)

meaning: he brought his people together and called to them in a loud voice, shouting that, and they responded to him obediently. So Allah took revenge on him, and made him a lesson to others in this world and the Hereafter. He even confronted Musa with that, and said:

لَئِنِ اتَّخَذْتَ إِلَـهَاً غَيْرِى لأَجْعَلَنَّكَ مِنَ الْمَسْجُونِينَ

If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners. (26:29)

... فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَى إِلَهِ مُوسَى ...

So kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarh in order that I may look at the God of Musa;

He commanded his minister and adviser Haman to bake bricks for him, i.e., to make bricks in order to build a Sarh, a exalted towering palace.

This is like the Ayah,

وَقَالَ فَرْعَوْنُ يهَـمَـنُ ابْنِ لِى صَرْحاً لَّعَـلِّى أَبْلُغُ الاٌّسْبَـبَ

أَسْبَـبَ السَّمَـوَتِ فَأَطَّلِعَ إِلَى إِلَـهِ مُوسَى وَإِنِّى لاّظُنُّهُ كَـذِباً وَكَـذَلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِفِرْعَوْنَ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَصُدَّ عَنِ السَّبِيلِ وَمَا كَـيْدُ فِرْعَوْنَ إِلاَّ فِى تَبَابٍ

And Fir`awn said: "O Haman! Build me a Sarh that I may arrive at the ways -- the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the God of Musa, but verily, I think him to be a liar.''

Thus it was made fair seeming, in Fir`awn's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the path; and the plot of Fir`awn led to nothing but loss and destruction. (40:36-37)

Fir`awn built this tower, which was the highest structure ever seen on earth, because he wanted to show his people that Musa was lying when he claimed that there was a God other than Fir`awn.

Fir`awn said:

... وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ ﴿٣٨﴾

and verily, I think that he (Musa) is one of the liars.

meaning, `when he says that there is a lord other than me.'

The issue was not whether Allah had sent Musa, because he did not acknowledge the existence of the Creator in the first place. On the contrary, he said: وَمَا رَبُّ الْعَـلَمِينَ (And what is the Lord of Al-`Alamin) (26:23) and: لَئِنِ اتَّخَذْتَ إِلَـهَاً غَيْرِى لأَجْعَلَنَّكَ مِنَ الْمَسْجُونِينَ (If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners). (26:29) and he said: يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي (O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me).

This was the view of Ibn Jarir.

And Allah tells:

وَاسْتَكْبَرَ هُوَ وَجُنُودُهُ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْنَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ ﴿٣٩﴾ top.gif

And he and his armies were arrogant in the land, without right, and they thought that they would never return to Us.

means, they were arrogant oppressors who spread much mischief in the land, and they believed that there would be no Resurrection.

فَصَبَّ عَلَيْهِمْ رَبُّكَ سَوْطَ عَذَابٍ

إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَبِالْمِرْصَادِ

So, your Lord poured on them different kinds of severe torment. Verily, your Lord is Ever Watchful (over them). (89:13-14)

Allah says here:

فَأَخَذْنَاهُ وَجُنُودَهُ فَنَبَذْنَاهُمْ فِي الْيَمِّ ... top.gif

So, We seized him and his armies, and We threw them all into the sea.

meaning, `We drowned them in the sea in a single morning, and not one of them was left.'

... فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿٤٠﴾

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ ... top.gif

So, behold what was the end of the wrongdoers. And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire.

for those who followed them and took the same path as they did, rejecting the Messengers and denying the Creator.

... وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ ﴿٤١﴾

and on the Day of Resurrection, they will not be helped.

their humiliation in this world is combined with and connected to their humiliation in the Hereafter, as Allah says:

أَهْلَكْنَـهُمْ فَلاَ نَـصِرَ لَهُمْ

We have destroyed them. And there was none to help them. (47:13)

وَأَتْبَعْنَاهُمْ فِي هَذِهِ الدُّنْيَا لَعْنَةً ... top.gif

And We made a curse to follow them in this world,

Allah decreed that they and their king Fir`awn should be cursed by the believers among His servants who follow His Messengers, just as in this world they were cursed by the Prophets and their followers.

... وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ هُم مِّنَ الْمَقْبُوحِينَ ﴿٤٢﴾

and on the Day of Resurrection, they will be among disgraced.

Qatadah said,

"This Ayah is like the Ayah,

وَأُتْبِعُواْ فِى هَـذِهِ لَعْنَةً وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ بِئْسَ الرِّفْدُ الْمَرْفُودُ

They were pursued by a curse in this (life) and on the Day of Resurrection. Evil indeed is the gift given. (11:99)''

- Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/028%20Qasas.htm

____________________________________

In this case he was not referring to Immamah. ( Divinely appointed)

and yes thank you very much. My Islamic Knowledge is low.

Ahlamodllah

Statement:

3. Imamat is USUL AD DIN if there was a verse telling us that there will be imams for this ummah then by rejecting I would become kafir.

Therefore as there is no verse in quran where Allah says that there will be imams after prophet your aqidah is on a rocky edge.

You are very Good at Insulting, but you fail to prove anything, and yet you have provide no Informative proof. Very Welldone.

The Quran no doubt was Revealed in the Time of the prophet (pbuh) and the verse I mentioned earlier Where Pointing at Imamah.

You firstly did not reply to the following:

(1) verse of Wilayah (look through the posts)

(2) My questions Considering the 12 mentioned In Bukhari

(3) considering the verse of Ulu'Alamr

(4) Bukhari and Muslim, about Ahlulbayt

(5) asked you where in the Quran does it point to "Shura."

(6) did the previous prophets do Shura to elect an Imam ( you did not answer me)

(7) you ignored my previous posts about the buring of the house Fatima Al Zahra

(8) you did nit reply to the special post I made for you (Proving Imam Ali (as) is the Khalifa and not Abu bakr)

(9) you did not reply to the Imam Mahdi (as) post, where I proved he is from Ahlulbayt (as)

(10) you completely ignored the Hadith of Manizal, I proved this to you, yet no reply.

(11) you ignored the Hadith about the "2 Khalifas, Prophet (pbuh) left" (the saying in Ghadir Khum)

(12) you did not reply, when I discussed (Muwala in the meaning Master and Khalifa)

(13) You haven't refuted anything from the 6 Sahihs (your books) that I mentioned.

(14) you Defiantly did not read.

__________________________________________________

We read in Holy Quran:

“O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you (min kum).”(Qur’an 4:59).

This verse deems obedience to the Ul’il Amr obligatory

All societies maintain law and order via the imposition of rules, with someone at the helm overseeing the process to ensure the maintaining of a healthy society. It is common sense for this to be obtained it is incumbent on us to obey those in authrity whether that is from the Head of State down to an officer issuing orders on the ground. The Sunni Ulema have according deemed obedience to the Ul’il Amr to be obligatory on the Ummah.

Mawardi writes:

“It is the law however, which has delegated the affairs to those who wield authority over them in matters of the Deen, Allah, May He be exalted, has said:

“O you who believe, obey Allah, his Rasul and those in authority amongst you”

Thus he has imposed on us obedience to those in authority that is those who have command over us”

Al-Ahkam al Sultaniyyah, Chapter 1 pages 10-11 (Ta-Ha publishers, London)

Ibn Khaldun comments on the verse as follows:

“It has been established that the institution (of the imamate) is necessary by general consensus (it must be added that the institution of imamate) is a community duty and is left to the discretion of all competent Muslims. It is their obligation to see to it that (the imamate) is set up, and everybody has to obey (the imam) in accordance with the verse of the Qur’an, “obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and the people in authority among you””

Muqaddimah page 392.

The Sunni scholars of Tafseer in their commentaries of this verse have said that the term Ul’il Amr is of general application, not specific. The Mufassireen have stated that the terminology incorporates various scenarios subject to the Shari’ah and incorporates various aspects of leadership. Since we are discussing the topic of Imamate we will analyse three key positions that the Sunni commentators have incorporated as Ul’il Amr:

  • Those in army authority positions.
  • Political Leaders, this incorporates the Head of State down to officers implementing rules and regulation at a ground level
  • The Ulema – Scholars of Deen.
The following Sunni scholars have added reference to these categories of Ul’il Amr in their commentaries of Surah Nisa verse 59.It is logical that all three types of Ul’il Amr are required to ensure the smooth running of a stable health Islamic society. Political Leaders are there to administer the running of the Government. The army leadership provide a protectorate role, preventing anarchy within the state through law enforcement and defending it from attack. The religious clergy are present to provide a religious steer there to ensure that the running of the country is done so in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah.

I answered this Question the 3 Previous post. Please go check.

In addition First I would like to clear up a misconception among the Sunni Muslims and Shi'ah: the twelve Imams are not a continued prophethood. The Imams do not receive revelations, rather, they inherited the knowledge of the Prophet Muhammed (s) and used the very same Qur'an that we use today. Revelations belong to the Prophets and Messengers, and Muhammed (s) was the seal of Prophets. The Imams were simply guides for the Muslim Ummah.

The number one widely used criticism to the A'immah (Imamate, 12 Caliphs, Succession, etc.) theory is that the Qur'an does not clearly mention their advent. It is true that we do not find the name of Ali ibn abi Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in the Qur'an, or that of any other Imam. However, I'll have to disagree that the Succession has not been mentioned at all in the Qur'an.

Let's take this slow and cover most of the points:

Ali (s) in the Qur'an

"And among men there is one who sells his self seeking the pleasure of God; and verily, God is affectionate to His (faithful) servants" (Noble Qur'an, 2:207)

This verse is unanimously speaking about Imam Ali (as), and our Sunni Muslim brothers and their scholars agree with this. It is referring to the time when Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã slept in the bed of the Prophet Muhammed (s) to prevent his capture. Ali faithfully slept in his bed, for God's pleasure and that of his cousin and master, and when the Quraysh barged in, they saw that the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) had already escaped.

There are many other verses I can point out, but before this blog gets too long, let us move on:

The Authority:

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those vested with authority from among you." (4:59)

Let's take a close look at this ayah for a moment. When God addresses us with "O you who believe", He is of course talking to the mu'min Muslims about a matter in which we must all abide. He then says, obey God, obey His Messenger (the Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]) and those vested with authority from among you.

Who could the third group be? Considering this ayah is talking to Muslims about obedience, and then mentions obedience to God and His Messenger, the third group must also be spiritual. It is put as the tertiary; the third model we must follow.

Traditional Sunni Muslims say that the verse refers simply to those we have in charge, whether that be our caliphs, governments, leaders, etc. The problem with this interpretation is that our leaders can be misguided and corrupt - God does not want us to follow evil leaders. Rather, we should do our part to make political leaders just, fair, and active by any means necessary.

The other problem is that in the verse, of the three parties (God, Muhammed, Authority among the Ummah), the first two are an unquestionable religious authority. Why would God name a third, possibly-corrupt authority that we must follow?

Rather, this is referring to the A'immah - because obeying them is obeying the Messenger, and obeying the Messenger is obeying God. Which makes sense in the context of the ayah. Political leaders would not.

The Hadiths

The Qur'an is not a book which emphasizes details, but rather it is one that reviews the point of our existence - to worship God, to be good to our fellow comrades, and to prepare for one of two final destinations on Judgment Day. The Qur'an primarily talks about these three points, and recites parables to give examples of Prophets and good men and women.

However, for details beyond the core of the religion, one must explore the Sunnah (tradition) of the Prophet Muhammed (s). The Qur'an and Sunnah go hand in hand, for example, the Qur'an tells us to worship, and the Sunnah teaches us how.

So the Sunnah instructs us on how to conduct our private life, how to dress, sleep, eat, and even gives us prophecies of the future and instructs us on how to create an ideal Muslim society. Therefore, the Sunnah is where you find the real meat concerning the A'immah.

Let's take a look at a Sunni Muslim source --> Sahih Muslim. Sahih Muslim is a respected compilation of the traditions of the Prophet (s), and the third most important source in Sunni Islam (the first two being the Noble Qur'an and Sahih Bukhari).

Sahih Muslim's volume named "Kitab al Imara" (Book of Government) has got some very interesting hadiths. Let's take a look:

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said;

" The Caliphate (khalifah, Arabic word for "succession") will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them... All of them will be from Quraysh" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4477)

Very simply put, the Prophet said that there will be 12 Caliphs (successors) from Quraysh tribe. If we look into history, we see that there were dozens of Caliphs, far more than twelve. Sunni Muslim scholars have been disagreeing about the interpretation of this hadith for thousands of years now, debating over which of their Caliphs would count towards the "twelve".

The most popular interpretation is that the twelve would include the first 4 Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali), plus the 8 which succeeded them. But many problems arose with this interpretation, such as the fact that Imam Mehdi would not be included in the twelve, despite his integral role in the end times. Some Sunni Muslims will also say that Yazid was unjust in his actions and undeserving of the Caliphate.

These 12 Caliphs can definitely only be the 12 Imams, starting with Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã and ending with the Mehdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

The second hadith I can use to prove this another hadith in the same Kitab al Imara, which states:

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said:

"The Caliphate will remain among the Quraysh even if only two persons are left on earth" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4476)

According to Sunni Islam, there is no Caliphate today at all. Historically, the Muslim leadership had been shattered and today we are left with no political leader. However, this hadith still stands, and indicates that we indeed do have a Successor to the prophet among us.

This can only be Imam Mehdi, who is in occultation and will return when God wills it. Even if only two people are left on earth, Imam Mehdi will be there, waiting.

Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã as the natural successor to the Prophet Muhammed (s)

In the Sunni Muslim hadith compilation "Tirmidhi", which is the third most important source for hadiths, the Prophet Muhammed (s) announced the Muslims' allegiance to Ali ibn abi Talib Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

The Holy Prophet (s) held up the hand of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã at Ghadir Khum, and said "Whoever I am his maula (leader, friend, master), Ali is his maula [too]! O God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." (Tirmidhi, V2, p298, v5, P63)

This was believed to have been said during the Prophet's "farewell pilgrimage". The hadith has been viewed as "Sahih" by hundreds of Sunni Muslim sources, including some very big names such as Ibn Maja and Ahmed ibn Hanbal.

Therefore, anyone who takes the Prophet (s) as his master, which all Muslims do, must therefore take Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã as his master as well. Considering that this was said at his fairwell ceremony, and considering Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã had lived long after the Prophet (s) had died, we can therefore assume that Ali was the maula of the Muslims, therefore making him the successor of the Prophet (s).

One must understand that by "Successor" I do not mean the Imams were in any way better than the Prophet Muhammed (s). Astaghfirallah, because Muhammed (s) was the seal of prophets, the praised one, the loved, the prophesied, and was the cradle of Allah's final testament, the Qur'an. The Imams were merely Muslims like ourselves, set to keep us on the straight path and lead us into the troubling times which pursued after the death of the Prophet.

God willingly, we will one day see the return of the twelve Imam, as well as the return of our Messiah Jesus (as)

May God bless you for your patience, thanks for reading my blog, and please do not forget me in your du'a. Wa-salamu alaykum.

4. Looooooolz YOU are the one that said harun a.s wasNOT a prophet whereas I said harun a.s WAS a prophet, yet YOU have the nerve and the cheek to say people will laugh at ME!! I can direct you to the post where you said it, OR you could save yourself the embarrassment and admit YOU need an islamic education.

What on earth? heavens no. Harun is a prophet and and a successor (as). I also proved to you, the Hadith of Manizal.

I'm waiting for your baseless Refutation. And please don't steer the Argument. I also gave you a clear answer that Rejecting

​Imamah Does not entirely mean you are kaffer brother. But your religion is not complete. Take for example You say No God but God

and Muhammad Prophet is his last messenger. But if one says the Shahadatayen, but does not Preform Salat, then he is not entirely

not a Muslim, not he is, but he is not considered as a "Moemen". The same thing goes with Wilaya.

Wa al salam.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

1. Your record of randomly copy and pasting from GOOGLE and other people's work as I have shown below, makes me question your character.

No offence but you are born idol and lazy and all you do is copy and paste blindly of GOOGLE.

You can't be bothered thinking for yourself, you copy other people's work word to word.

Copied from aabiss shakari

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/70743-did-masooms-received-wahi/

The hadiths you have COPIED AND PASTED above are found in this book in chapter 6 and 7.

The least you could have done is read the preface, it reads:

What is offered here is a fairly comprehensive selection of the narrations pertaining to Jesus (‘a) said to have been reported by the Shí‘í Imams, peace be with them. It is generally admitted that not everything reported in this literature is correct, and the science of hadith has been developed by Muslim scholars precisely for the purpose of sorting through the narrations and evaluating their strength. No attempt has been made in what follows to select only hadiths considered reliable. The narrations selected provide an overview of what various reporters of hadiths have claimed that the Imams have said about Jesus (‘a). At the same time, we cannot claim that our selection exhausts all such narrations. Sometimes we have found several reports that differ only in some insignificant details, in which case we have generally selected the most complete form of the report. Also omitted are reports in which Jesus is mentioned only incidentally, although where such incidental mention seemed interesting to us, we have provided the excerpt from the hadith. The isnàd, or chains of transmission that accompany the reports, have been omitted from the English translations since they would only be of use to those who have fluency in Arabic.... Etc etc

So this is why I have been crying about for the past week, you randomly copy and paste of google without looking into what is and isn't authentic.

YET YOU HAVE THE CHEEK TO SAY TO ME THAT I DON'T OFFER YOU PROOF FOR MY ANSWERS.

So who was infalliable imam leading just before the arrival of prophet muhammad??

Now bring me authentic hadith with proof of their authencity.

Also since when were the successors of prophet ISA INFALLIABLE IMAMS??

2. You still never answered my question you've just done a load of COPYING AND PASTING AGAIN...

You said:

When imam is mentioned it mentions guidance side by side

I said: I said no it doesn't.

3. First of, you mentioned this hadith in your reply

The Prophet Muhammed (s) said:

"The Caliphate will remain among the Quraysh even if only two persons are left on earth" (Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara, Hadith 4476)

Yet you have AGAIN proven that you do NOT research but blindly follow google.

Kitab al imara in sahih Muslim finishes with hadith 4731.

Book 20, Number 4731:

A version of the tradition narrated on the authority of Jabir (but through a different chain of transmitters) mentions the undesirability of coining to one's house like a night visitor, but does not contain the words: "Doubting their fidelity or spying into their lapses."

... and hadith number 4776 is:

Book 21, Number 4775:

Salama b. Akwa' reported : We went to Khaibar with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Then Allah granted (us) victory over them. On that very evening of the day when they had been granted victory, they lit many fires. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: What are those fires and what for those have been lit? They said: (These have been lit) for (cooking) the flesh. Thereupon he said: Of what flesh? They said : For the flesh of the domestic asses. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace bo upon him) said: Throw that away and break them (the earthen pots in which the fiesa was being cooked). A person said: Messenger of Allah, should we throw it away and wash them (the cooking pots)? He said : You may do so.

Book 21, Number 4776:

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Yazid b. Abu Ubaid.

It is just a repeat hadith but with a new transmitter.

My answers.

1. Verse of wilayah

I have answered you and I will answer you again.

Firstly I'd like to stress this verse does not talk about leadership nor does it say obey.

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship].

It can't possibly talk about leader because Allah is not a leader nor does it say obey ali.

If you had read a few verses before and after you will realise Allah is talking about who to take as friends/allies.

2. The 12 caliphs mentioned in bukhari does not help you prove anything. Two reasons

They will be from QURAISH, so caliphate is not restricted to AHLE BAYT or even banu hashim. QURAISH is massive with many many sub clans.

It does not say that they will be appointed by Allah.

3. The verse of ulil alamr.

Sahih International

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Like the rest of the quran this verse is talking about all Muslims even the ones after prophet.

Now if Allah did appoint infalliable imams why didn't he say in second part of verse;

And if you differ refer it back to Allah messenger or imams??

Instead we are told to refer to Allah and messenger, ie quran and authentic hadith from prophet.

The reason is that Allah knew that in the future "those with authority" would be fallible so he told us refer it back to quran and sahih hadith if we differed amongst us.

Also IF according to you "those with authority" are the imams and obeying them is OBLIGOTARY then we SUNNIS totally reject imamat in any way shape or form, yet we are still considered Muslims among shia ayatollahs.

Also tell me this:

Not praying salah through some lame excuse does NOT make a person kafir BUT rejecting salah and saying it is NOT part of islam makes one kafir.

Now If I REJECT salah I am a kafir yet if I reject an USUL AD DIN imamate I am still a Muslim??

Does that make any sense??

4. Bukhari and Muslim on AHLE BAYT.

How on earth does this prove anything.

You obviously still do not understand that AHLE BAYT is NOT restricted to 12 imams. Your evidence is that because there is a hadith that prophet (pbuh) says imam mahdi will be from my AHLE BAYT you think he will be the last one.

It no where in that hadith states that imam mahdi will be the last descendant of AHLE BAYT.

AHLE BAYT are all the descendants of imam ali and bibi fatimah. They are called sayids.

It also in that hadith states that quran and AHLE BAYT will not seperate till they meet at the pond.

My question is if AHLE BAYT cease to exist after imam mahdi how can they not seperate till they meet at the pond, because NOBODY knows when yawm al qiyamah will be. Imam mahdi children will be AHLE BAYT also that's how AHLE BAYT will not seperate till they meet at the pond. All sayids are from the AHLE BAYT of rasolallah. AHLE BAYT simply means ones family and descendants even to shia interpretations.

I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU GO AND RESEARCH DEEPLY VERY DEEPLY WHAT AHLE BAYT MEANS.

5. I already told you that shura is NOT an usul ad din but merely an islamic democracy. That is why even if somebody rejects our caliphs they are still Muslims eg shia.

6. Why would prophets shura when only Allah can appoint prophets?? WE and YOU all believe this. Selecting PROPHETS is the right of Allah swt ONLY. I've already mentioned this before.

7. Firstly you bring me unauthentic hadith from your FRIEND GOOGLE and then you expect me to swallow whatever garbage you COPY AND PASTE of GOOGLE.

Believe me if umar killed fatimah I would be the first to swear at him but these are all fabrications. I have been STUDYING islamic history for a long time and NOT simply COPY AND PASTING of google and i have seen all them hadiths and studied them and not one hadith where it says umar killed FATIMA is authentic.

8. I don't know where it is could you kindly point me in the right direction

9. Imam mahdi is from AHLE BAYT. Kindly go to answer 4.

10. My brother/sister you haven't proven anything. Not even one of the quranic verses you pointed out say that harun a.s will be PERMENANT successor so how does the hadith prove that ali is PERMENANT successor?? Also harun a.s passed away before musa a.s and yusha a.s became the PERMENANT successor.

11. Ghadir Khumm. How does ghadir Khumm prove successorship.

“Man Kuntu Mawla fa `Ali Mawla.” (Whomsoever’s Mawla I am, this Ali is also his Mawla.)

If this was talking about leadership then we have a MASSIVE problem.

According to shia interpretations the word maula means leader so lets write it the shia way.

Whimsoever's leader I am ali is his leader

Right.

So now ali has been declared leader?? BUT where does that leave prophet. Who is now the leader of the Muslims prophet or ali??

Can a non prophet become a leader WHILE a prophet is still alive??

Don't forget the prophet never said the words "AFTER ME".

Ghadeer Khumm involves a lot more than meets the eye, kasam bro/sis you need to get off google and go and read authentic reliable books and speak to ulema on both sides sunni and shia.

Read what is on this site below and before you start hurling insults like NASIBI website etc, atleast try and give it a try with an open heart, mind, eyes and ears. May Allah guide your heart inshallah.

http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/articles/rebuttals/ghadir-khumm.html

12. Mawla has many meanings

13. Do you blame me. Like I said at the start of my post you randomly copy of your GOOGLE and expect me to believe anything you say.

For eg that hadith You pointed out in sahih Muslim in Kitab al imara doesn't even exist!!! So please go away get off google read books visit scholars then bring me authentic hadiths so I may debate you

14. EXCUSE ME YOU didn't just accuse ME of NOT reading... Did you??

4. How on earth is harun a.s a PERMENANT successor. Quran does not in any of those verses you have mentioned say harun will be PERMENANT successor. You don't realise but you are indirectly questioning Allah.

For eg; if any of those verses in quran were talking about the PERMENANT successorship of harun a.s then you are saying that Allah never knew that harun a.s would die before musa a.s astagfirullah

ALSO PLEASE do not accuse ME of steering the debate because I have answered every question you asked for the second time.

Lets see you refute EVERY SINGLE answer I bought.

The truth is you can't because its not in YOUR nature, you can only COPY AND PASTE of google or COPY AND PASTE someone else's work ie

Brother aabiss shakaris work.

This is the third or fourth time in a week I have directed you to google pages where you blindly and endlessly copy and pasted.

It has took me four hours to reply this message to you, because it is ALL my own work and research ie reading hadiths that you pointed out from my books at home and typing and thoroughly checking where YOU have COPY AND PASTED from.

Now lets see you write an answer in your own words refuting EVERY SINGLE answer I have given you.

Salams

I again quote your statements where you are confined in circles:

1- You consider Immamat as Usul deen (12 Imams)

2- On the other hand you deny Imam Ali as caliph, Ulil Amr including 12 Imams from Ali to Al Mahdi.

So you have contradictory beliefs regarding religion, what should a mindful can think about this illogical approach?

You need to clarify this first.

Regarding Immamat and Usul Deen i have clarified in the post no 98, you should read it agian.

Moreover, If someone likes to be called as kafir I have no objection on his own choice, however I have certainly clarified my opinion as given in the last 4 posts.

Regards.

1. I consider imamat as usul ad din???

If I considered imamat as usul ad din I would be a shia.

You have obviously totally misread and misunderstood my points, so il make it simple as possible.

SHIA not me ME consider imamat usul ad din. All I'm saying is that IF imamat is indeed usul ad din then by denying it how can one remain a Muslim??

By YOUR (shia) theory denying an usul ad din is all good. How can you remain a Muslim by rejecting the very FOUNDATION of islam (according to shia imamat is USUL AD DIN)

So by YOUR theory I can still remain a Muslim if I deny yawm al qiyamah or even angels, is this so??

PLEASE ANSWER??

2. Like I said I DO NOT believe imamat is USUL AD DIN ( I'm a sunni) or that imamat is even something that exists in islam.

If imamat exists in islam we should have at least ONE VERSE where Allah says that there will be imams after prophet for THIS ummah. Maybe before you reply with a message you should ponder over this verse:

Surah 3 verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; IN IT ARE VERSES (that are ) PRECISEthey are the FOUNDATION OF THE BOOK - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So now since imamat is according to shia the FOUNDATION (USUL AD DIN) of islam then find me ONE precise verse where we are told that after prophet (pbuh) there will be imams.

3. Also just for the record if somebody does not pray salah due to laziness or some other lame excuse he is not a kafir, but if he REJECTS salah he is then kafir

Similarly shia say imamat is USUL AD DIN so how can somebody remain a Muslim if he REJECTS an USUL AD DIN

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Hey if there is a successor or not does that really make a difference in the end of the day?

 

Are you going to stop fasting during ramadan or stop giving to charity over this subject?

 

Will you worship Zeus instead of Allah?

 

Will you rape adulterers instead of stoning them to death?

 

I mean seriously what difference is it going to make to us right now? The wars are over, 1400 years have passed, you're all fighting over ancient texts and historical concepts.

 

It's so petty.

 

Did God really put us on this Earth to fight over history? Or maybe he put us here to make a better future?

 

Maybe the reason 1400 years have passed without Qiyamah is because whatever we've been doing for 1400 years has not been working!

 

So why don't we try a different approach? Instead of repeating history and being stuck in an endless loop.

 

History shows us that fighting over history and arguing with texts and logic and reasoning and proofs and evidences has not solved anything! There still exists various religions and sects, you cannot convert people.

 

So just stop trying.  Worry about your self and your community, promote a better future.  Instead of talking about how good companions were, be good your self, live your own life, stop chasing shadows and stabbing in the dark.

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Forgive me for not reading any of the the 5 pages in this thread but as Sideeq al Akbar, Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qahafah (ra), was selected as the immediate successor of the Prophet (saws).

 

Please read before I go and Giving you proof of your wrong statement.

Wa al salam.

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1. Your record of randomly copy and pasting from GOOGLE and other people's work as I have shown below, makes me question your character.
No offence but you are born idol and lazy and all you do is copy and paste blindly of GOOGLE.  You can't be bothered thinking for yourself, you copy other people's work word to word.
 
Reply: Everything is copied and pasted when it comes to long detailed informative texts.
Yes in my reply one of the Paragraphs were copied and pasted from a previous post,
which I became knowledge of, When reading it, the Question is did you read?
and I like how your temper is rising, post after post, I wish you you take it easy on the Insults.
JazakAllah Khiaer.


  
Statement:
What is offered here is a fairly comprehensive selection of the narrations pertaining to Jesus (‘a) said to have been reported by the Shí‘í Imams, peace be with them. It is generally admitted that not everything reported in this literature is correct, and the science of hadith has been developed by Muslim scholars precisely for the purpose of sorting through the narrations and evaluating their strength. No attempt has been made in what follows to select only hadiths considered reliable. The narrations selected provide an overview of what various reporters of hadiths have claimed that the Imams have said about Jesus (‘a). At the same time, we cannot claim that our selection exhausts all such narrations. Sometimes we have found several reports that differ only in some insignificant details, in which case we have generally selected the most complete form of the report. Also omitted are reports in which Jesus is mentioned only incidentally, although where such incidental mention seemed interesting to us, we have provided the excerpt from the hadith. The isnàd, or chains of transmission that accompany the reports, have been omitted from the English translations since they would only be of use to those who have fluency in Arabic.... Etc etc
 
Reply: A reply which makes no sense. Please stop accusing us of Fabricated Hadith. when Bukhari and Muslim have the most Offensive Hadiths,
To Allah and the prophet (pbuh) shall I mention them? and yes I have a very good Knowledge of the Science of Hadith. If you were knowledgeable about the Sanad and etc, You would have replied to my previous post, which had 4 Sahih Hadiths from Musan Ibn Ahnabal, Al-Albani and Al sunnah, and including Nisiai. People go over them and check the sources. Allah guide you.

 
 
Statement: 3. The verse of ulil alamr. Sahih International
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. Like the rest of the quran this verse is talking about all Muslims even the ones after prophet. Now if Allah did appoint infalliable imams why didn't he say in second part of verse; And if you differ refer it back to Allah messenger or imams?? Instead we are told to refer to Allah and messenger, ie quran and authentic hadith from prophet. The reason is that Allah knew that in the future "those with authority" would be fallible so he told us refer it back to quran and sahih hadith if we differed amongst us.Also IF according to you "those with authority" are the imams and obeying them is OBLIGOTARY then we SUNNIS totally reject imamat in any way shape or form, yet we are still considered Muslims among shia ayatollahs.

 
reply: Who are you to provide Tafsir of your own? Do you even now that your Highest Tafsir Ulma Says about this verse, this only proves that you fail to read. Let us take look, I will provide you even with Scanned papers. but First you must understand All societies maintain law and order via the imposition of rules, with someone at the helm overseeing the process to ensure the maintaining of a healthy society. It is common sense for this to be obtained it is incumbent on us to obey those in authrity whether that is from the Head of State down to an officer issuing orders on the ground. The Sunni Ulema have according deemed obedience to the Ul’il Amr to be obligatory on the Ummah.
 
Mawardi writes:
 
“It is the law however, which has delegated the affairs to those who wield authority over them in matters of the Deen, Allah, May He be exalted, has said:

“O you who believe, obey Allah, his Rasul and those in authority amongst you”
Thus he has imposed on us obedience to those in authority that is those who have command over us”


Scanned proof:
 
Al-Ahkam al Sultaniyyah, Chapter 1 pages 10-11 (Ta-Ha publishers, London)
 

post-83202-0-26648100-1376388031_thumb.j

post-83202-0-55138400-1376388175.jpg

post-83202-0-33457800-1376388388_thumb.j
 
Ibn Khaldun him self comments on the verse as follows:
 
“It has been established that the institution (of the imamate) is necessary by general consensus (it must be added that the institution of imamate) is a community duty and is left to the discretion of all competent Muslims. It is their obligation to see to it that (the imamate) is set up, and everybody has to obey (the imam) in accordance with the verse of the Qur’an, “obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and the people in authority among you”” 
 

Scanned proof below:

Muqaddimah page 392.

 

You really need to read even your own Sunni scholars of Tafseer in their commentaries of this verse have said that the term Ul’il Amr is of general application, not specific. The Mufassireen have stated that the terminology incorporates various scenarios subject to the Shari’ah and incorporates various aspects of leadership. Since we are discussing the topic of Imamate we will analyse three key positions that the Sunni commentators have incorporated as Ul’il Amr:

  1. Those in army authority positions.
  2. Political Leaders, this incorporates the Head of State down to officers implementing rules and regulation at a ground level
  3. The Ulema – Scholars of Deen.

The following Sunni scholars have added reference to these categories of Ul’il Amr in their commentaries of Surah Nisa verse 59.

  1. Tafseer Mu’allim al Tanzeel Volume 1 pages 444-445 by Imam Abi Muhammad Hussain bin Masud al Baghawi al Shaafi [Multan]
  2. Tafseer Dur al Manthur Volume 2 pages 314-315 by Al Hafidh Jalaluddeen Suyuti [beirut]
  3. Tafseer al Kabeer Volume 4 page 113 by Allamah Fakhradeen Razi [Multan]
  4. Tafseer Qurtubi Volume 5 pages 168-169 [Makka]
  5. Tafseer Mazhari (Urdu translation) Volume 3 pages 96-98 by Qadhi Thana’ullah Panee Patee
  6. Tafseer Kashaf Volume 1 pages 535-537

It is logical that all three types of Ul’il Amr are required to ensure the smooth running of a stable health Islamic society. Political Leaders are there to administer the running of the Government. The army leadership provide a protectorate role, preventing anarchy within the state through law enforcement and defending it from attack. The religious clergy are present to provide a religious steer there to ensure that the running of the country is done so in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah. in The scholars of tafseer have held obedience to these individuals to be conditional, since such people can make mistakes, hence their obedience is restricted to them adhering to the Qur’an and Sunnah, and ensuring that all directives given are in accordance with these legal provisions. What better evidence of this limited obedience can there be than the frank admission of Abu Bakr who said at the time of his inaugural speech:

 

“Now then: O people, I have been put in charge of you, although I am not the best of you. Help me if I do well; rectify me if I do wrong”. 

Tarikh Tabari, English translation Volume 9 page 201

 

He himself acknowledged that obedience to his authority was not unconditional, it was limited there existed in the Ummah others better than him, and he was himself looking to others to help him. Whilst commenting on the Abu Bakr’s speech the modernist Sunni thinker Abdelwahab El Affendi makes an observation which points albeit unintentionally to Abu Bakr’s position as an Imam e Juzwi (partial Imam):

“In the time of the Prophet there was no question of guiding the leader, or watching out for his errors in order to correct them. God took care of that, while the community had only to follow the divine guidance. Now this guidance had to be mediated by human agents who were supposed to determine what conformed to the dictates of true faith and what did not? Who are these human agents? Presumably it was not the khalifa himself, for he was the one asking for guidance” 

Who needs an Islamic State, by Abdelwahab El-Affendi, page 24

 

The first speech is very important as we know in modern times when a party comes to power it sets out its agenda in its inaugural speech, it’s thinking, it’s values, the speech will reflect the leadership. This speech was an acknowledgement of his incapability’s and as such points to his acknowledgement as an Imam with limited capabilities. How can Abu Bakr be deemed the Ul’il Amr whose obedience is unconditional when he was seeking to rely on others for assistance when he deviated? The duty in the Qur’an is to obey those in authority, and yet the supposed Ul’il Amr Abu Bakr is looking to others to guide him!!!

 

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Forgive me for not reading any of the the 5 pages in this thread but as Sideeq al Akbar, Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qahafah (ra), was selected as the immediate successor of the Prophet (saws).

Oh right. We forgot.

He appointed himself. Instead of attending the burial of his most beloved friend.

Our bad.

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Statement:
. Bukhari and Muslim on AHLE BAYT. How on earth does this prove anything. You obviously still do not understand that AHLE BAYT is NOT restricted to 12 imams. Your evidence is that because there is a hadith that prophet  (pbuh) says imam mahdi will be from my AHLE BAYT you think he will be the last one. It no where in that hadith states that imam mahdi will be the last descendant of AHLE BAYT. AHLE BAYT are all the descendants of imam ali and bibi fatimah. They are called sayids.It also in that hadith states that quran and AHLE BAYT will not seperate till they meet at the pond. My question is if AHLE BAYT cease to exist after imam mahdi how can they not seperate till they meet at the pond, because NOBODY knows when yawm al qiyamah will be. Imam mahdi children will be AHLE BAYT also that's how AHLE BAYT will not seperate till they meet at the pond. All sayids are from the AHLE BAYT of rasolallah. AHLE BAYT simply means ones family and descendants even to shia interpretations. 

 
 
 


(bismillah) 

 

 

 
 As you can see in the same way that Allah  sent his elected prophets to guide mankind towards His Religion which was completed with the Seal of all Prophets, Muhammad  the messenger of Allah (s) he also appointed Imams to provide the correct teachings of the Qur’an / Sunnah to the people I proved this A while earlier through some narration, at any case. Whilst the divine revelation ended with the Prophet Muhammad (s) and was encoded within the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of his Messenger, both of the sources cannot speak of their own accord, both require an individual to provide the correct interpretation of the religion . We do not believe that Allah would just leave religious guidance to be borne out of a social experiment, one where people appoint their leader and then turn to him for guidance. In the same way that Mankind had no choice on the appointment of Prophets the same issue arises in connection with Imams. This crucial post of eternal guidance, to the correct teachings of Islam, can only be given to those that Allah appoints as His true guides, after all Allah is all knowing, all seeing. He selects that individual upon He bestows guidance and blessings, mankind cannot benefit from such a right, their selection is macabre and can only be based on the individual as he appears, it can be a choice clouded by duress, self interest or bribery. If one assesses the politics of the world we see regular change, with regards to the selection of people. People are appointed on to different positions. That can be at different levels, at a Committee level, a Council level, a Governmental level. When we choose that person, we do so having a specific expectation, a faith in that individual. Unfortunately the person elected often does not live up to expectation. You become disillusioned with that individual, he has not fulfilled the promises he made during the elections, pledges you relied on when deciding to vote for him. Man chooses without knowledge of the unseen, he does not know what the future holds. He elects an individual via his own limited capacity, his own limitations. The person elected likewise has limitations, he has limited knowledge, and he is unaware of what will happen in the future. When people elect their fellow citizens to power they do so in their limited capacity. People will also take in to account factors such as relationship to the election candidate, they might have some tribal / familial loyalty which forces them to vote in a particular way. It is not necessary that they like that individual have factors which have forced them to vote for him, i.e. external pressure such as duress from family, friends, and powerful figures in the community. In Feudal Europe and the present third world it is common for landlords to exert pressure on their tenants / subjects to vote for their choice of individual, failure to do so could lead to severe consequences such as loss of employment, home etc. Individuals vote not out of choice but through fear.

Allah in his infinite wisdom knew that fallible humans could fall into such a trap which is why He  took it on Himself to ensure that religious guidance would fall on His shoulders and He alone would choose Imams to guide the Ummah to the correct teachings of Islam, and bestowed upon them the same right over the Ummah as the Prophet (s) did. In this context allow us to cite a tradition recorded by Shaykh de Jour al-Albani in his “Sahih al-Targheeb wa al-Tarheeb” Volume 2 Hadith 2188, records this hadith and declares it authentic:

 

الأئمة من قريش إن لي عليكم حقا ولهم عليكم حقا مثل ذلك ما إن استرحموا رحموا وإن عاهدوا وفوا وإن حكموا عدلوا فمن لم يفعل ذلك منهم فعليه لعنة الله والملائكة والناس أجمعين

 

“The Imams are from the Quraysh. Verily I have a right over you and they have right over you just like it whence they are sought for mercy, give it, and if they promise, they keep it, and if they judge/rule, they are just, and verily whomsoever doesn`t do this from them, then God`s curse, as well Angels, as well as humans are upon them.”

 

The right of Rasulullah (s) in obedience is based on the right of Allah in obedience. His obedience is that which is at one with Allah. He has a right to be followed in all aspects that he commands and teaches, the question we would like to as is whether this is a right peculiar to Rasulullah (s) alone? The Quran makes reference to Imams (that we shall discuss in a later chapter), and this tradition confirms the existence of Imams whose characteristics and it is made clear that if they failed top adhere to this, God`s curse would be upon them, and this concurs with the Quranic verse wherein Allah (swt)’s wrath is upon those with , as Allah says in Surah Baqarah verse 124: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers“.

 

This is similar to the words of Allah in the Quran wherein He made it clear that if Prophets would deem themselves Gods Allah would punish them, this was of course merely underlining a concept, those divinely appointed to do Allah's work whether they be Prophets or Imams would never do such a thing.

We will expland in a later chapter in the faact that the Imams are appointed by Allah in the Quran and they are made to guide by Allah’s Command. This is what Imams means in revelation language.

 

The said tradition also refers to Allah (swt)’s disassociation with bad leaders. Whilst the true Imams acquire rights that equate with those of Rasulullah (s), bad leaders are cursed and kept aloof from Allah’s mercy.

Now who are these Imams that have acquired such a right?

We know that the number of these Imams would be twelve. We have already cited the tradition from Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara Book 020, Number 4483:

 

The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish.

 

You ignored the point where I asked you for their names and you did not answer me? its clear that this tradition has fixed the period of Islam’s supremacy till the day of Qiyamat and also fixed the number of Imams for this Ummah as twelve.

There may well be normal temporal leaders, they exist from all sorts of tribes, not just the Quraysh, from all around the world. The leadership that Rasulullah (s) refers to is that which is sui generis in nature, it is is special in that it exists only in the Quraysh. It refers to the Divine Imamate successorship. Whilst the Saheeh Muslim tradition informs us that Rasulullah (s) said that these 12 leaders from the Quraish who have an existence up unil the day of Judgement, the membership of which family from the Quraish is broken down yet further in other traditions.

 

Shaykh al-Albani records a Sahih narration in his book “Sahih wa Da’if al-Jami’ al-Saghir wa Ziyadatuh” volume 1 page 423 Number 4222:


 

إني تارك فيكم خليفتين : كتاب الله حبل ممدود ما بين السماء و الأرض و عترتي أهل بيتي و إنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض

 

“I am FOREVER leaving amongst you TWO SUCCESSORS, they are the Book of Allah, which is a rope stretching between the heavens and the earth, and my nearest kindred, my Ahl al-Bayt. BOTH will NEVER separate from each other until they return to me at the Lake-Fount.”

 

Al-Albani further records another hadith of the Prophet with the same message in his Zilal al-Jannah, vol. 2, p. 37, Number 754:


ثنا أبو بكر ثنا عمرو بن سعد أبو داود الحفري عن شريك عن الركين عن القاسم بن حسان عن زيد بن ثابت قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن تارك فيكم الخليفتين من بعدي كتاب الله وعترتي أهل بيتي وإنهما لن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض

“Narrated Zayd ibn Thabit:
Allah’s Apostle, peace be upon him, said: “I am forever leaving among you THE TWO SUCCESSORS AFTER ME: the Book of Allah and my nearest kindred, my Ahl al-Bayt. BOTH will NEVER separate from each other until they return to me at the Lake-Fount.”

Rasulullah (s) referred to the Quran and Ahl’ul bayt (as) as his Khalifas, whose existence would remain up unil the Day of Judgment. Rasulullah (s) also made reference to the worlds existence being inter linked with the presence of twelve khalifas. It would make no sense for Rasulullah (s) to refer to the Ahl’ul bayt (as) as the khalifas to follow after him, whose existence would be present up until the Day of Judgment and then make reference to a completely different set of 12 Khalifas whose existence would exist up until the Day of Judgement! By reading both traditions together one can logically deduce that they are one and the same, the twleve khailifas whose existence is up until the Day of Judgment, must refer to the Khailfas from Ahl’ul bayt (as) whose existence is up until the Day of Judgment. The twelve successors from the Quraysh are the twelve Imams (as) of the Ahl’ul bayt.

We deem our Imams to be the true successors of the Prophet (s) who had been tasked with guiding and protecting the Ummah from deviation. In this connection we will cite the comments of Shaykh Saduq in al-I’tiqadat al-Imamiyyah, translated into English as Shi’ite Creed page 84:

“And our belief is that after His Prophet, the Blessing of Allah be upon him, the proofs of Allah for the people are the Twelve Imams, the first of them being the Prince of Believers ‘Ali bin Abi Talib, then al Hasan, then al Hussain, then ‘Ali bin al Hussain, then Muhammad bin ‘Ali, then Jafar bin Muhammad, then Musa bin Jafar, then Ali bin Musa ar Rida, then Muhammad bin ‘Ali, then ‘Ali bin Muhammad, then Hasan bin ‘Ali, then Muhammad bin al Hasan the Proof (al Hujja), who upholds the command of Allah (al-qaim bi-amri’l –lah), The Master of Time (sahibu ‘z-zaman), the Vicegerent of the Beneficent One (Khalifatu-r Rahman)’

 

In order to open your closed eyes, let me cite a narration from their own literature that affirms this very belief and sequence of Imams. The grand Mufti of Constantinople (Qustantinya), and the Chief Justice of Ottoman Caliphate, Shaykh Suleiman Qundozi al-Hanafi records this narration in Yanabi al-Muwaddat, chapter 76, pages 685-686:

 

Hamwayni reports from Mujahid who narrates from Ibe Abbas that a Jew named Na’thal came to Prophet [saww] and after asking about Tauhid and Nabuwat, he said:

“Let me know about your successor; who is the person? Every Prophet does have a successor. Our Prophet Musa bin Imran (as) had nominated Yoshe’ bin Nun as his successor.” Prophet [saww] replied: “My successor is Ali ibne Abi Talib. After him my two grandsons Hasan and Hussein. And then nine Imams from the progeny of Hussein.”

The Jew said: “O Muhammad! Let me know their names.”

 

Prophet [saww] replied: “When Hussein passes away, his son Ali will be Imam, and after him, his son Muhammad will be the Imam, and he will be succeeded by his son Ja’far and after him, his son Musa will be the Imam. After Musa’s demise his son Ali will be the Imam and after Ali his son Muhammad will be the Imam, and after him, his son Ali will be the Imam, and after Ali his son Hasan will be the Imam who will be followed by his son Mehdi. These are the twelve.”

 

The Jew said: “Let me know about the deaths of Ali, Hasan and Hussein.” Prophet [saww] replied: “Ali will be struck on his head and martyred, Hasan will be poisoned, whereas Hussein will be slaughtered.” The Jew asked: “What will be their destiny?”
Prophet [saww] replied: “They will at my status in paradise.”

 

We also read in Yanabi al Mawaddah pages 501 to 502:

 

In the book Manaqib, Abu Tufail bin Wasila narrates that in Madina a Jew appeared before Ali (K) and said ‘I shall question you regarding three things, then another three, followed by one more’. Ali said ‘Why don’t you just say you are going to pose seven questions’. He replied ‘I shall ask three questions, if you answer them correctly I shall ask a further three, if you ask those correctly I shall ask the one question. Ali said, what do you think, shall I answer incorrectly or correctly? The Jew produced from his bag an old book and added, I attained this book as inheritance from my father who attained it from his grandfather, who attained it from his forefather Haroon, it was written by Musa bin Imran. I shall refer to issues written in this book. Ali said ‘Will you embrace Islam if I answer these questions correctly’. He said ‘By God, should you do so I shall immediately embrace Islam on your hands. Ali said ‘Ask away’. He said ‘Inform me about the first stone that appeared on the earth, the first tree planted on the earth, and the first water spring. ‘Ali said ‘The Jews said that the first stone was the dome of the rock, but they lie it was the stone of Hajr-e-Aswat. When Adam was removed from Paradise, he placed it at a place called Rukn, people would touch, kiss and make vows at it. This stone was initially an angel…when Adam left Paradise he also left but was turned into a stone. The Jew said ‘You have spoken the truth’. Ali said ‘With regards to the first tree planted on the earth, the Jews says it was Zaitoon, but they have lied on this matter. It was a date palm tree that Adam brought with him from Paradise; all dates originate from this tree. The Jew replied ‘You have spoken the truth’. Ali said ‘In relation to the first river on the earth, the Jews assume that it was the water that flowed under the stone of the Dome of Rock, but they lie. It is that river where the companion of Musa forgot about the fish. When the fish cams into contact with the water from the river, the fish came to life and remained alive in it. Khider and Musa travelled through this river. The Jew commented ‘You have spoken the truth’. Ali then said ‘Ask me the next three questions’. He asked ‘How many Imams will appear from this Prophets Ummah? What be the destination of Muhammad? Where will he be in Paradise? Tell of your destination, where will you be in Paradise and who will accompany you? ‘Ali said ‘There shall appear twelve Imams from this Prophets Ummah, the efforts of their enemies will be unable to destroy them.’. The Jew said ‘You have spoken the truth’. ‘Ali then said ‘The Jew accompanying hin [Rasulullah] to Paradise will be these twelve Imams, the first being me, the last being the awaited al Mahdi’. The Jew said ‘You have uttered the truth’ Ali then said ‘Ask me the single question’. The Jew said ‘Tell me how long you shall remain alive after the Prophet.’. He [‘Ali] said ‘thirty years, until this will become reddened, he signalled at his beard and forehead’. The Jew then said, ‘I testify that none is worthy of worship save Allah, that Muhammad his Messenger, and I testify that you are the Wasi of Rasulullah’.


Statements:
5. I already told you that shura is NOT an usul ad din but merely an islamic democracy. That is why even if somebody rejects our caliphs they are still Muslims eg shia. 6. Why would prophets shura when only Allah can appoint prophets?? WE and YOU all believe this. Selecting PROPHETS is the right of Allah swt ONLY. I've already mentioned this before. 7. Firstly you bring me unauthentic hadith from your FRIEND GOOGLE and then you expect me to swallow whatever garbage you COPY AND PASTE of GOOGLE.

 

 

Indeed you are blind. Just because a Hadith I mentioned Can be found on the Internet, it does not mean you should not have the guts to go and check it. Or at least check the chain narrators. Some of the Ahadith I mentioned where SAHIH and not only that, but straight from your books. You play a very good game, at accusing one for his informative reply. I advise you to look Look at page 456 of the Ta'rikh, Volume II by Muhammad Bin Jarir Tabari, one of your eminent ulema. He writes that Umar came to the door of the Prophet's house but did not enter. He sent a message to Abu Bakr: "Come immediately; I have urgent business with you." Abu Bakr sent word to him that he had no time. Umar sent another message: "We are faced with a crisis. Your presence is necessary." Abu Bakr came out and Umar told him secretly about the gathering of the Ansars in the Saqifa and said that they should immediately go there. Both departed, and on the way they met Abu Ubaida and took him with them. For Allah's sake, be fair. If they had not hatched a conspiracy, why did Umar go to the door of the house of the Prophet but not enter it? They could have asked for help. Was there in the whole umma only Abu Bakr, who was all wisdom, and were the other companions and the descendants of the Prophet aliens who did not deserve to be informed about this matter? Was this ijma of yours rightfully constituted by three men? Where in any part of the world is such a procedure acceptable? Suppose that three people or any group of people, assemble in a city and form an ijma and appoint the head of the state. Is it incumbent on the ulema and intellectuals of all other cities or towns to obey them? Or even if some intelligent and learned men who have not been selected by others give an opinion, is it necessary that the rest of the intelligentsia follow them? Is it proper to suppress the feelings of the entire nation through the intimidating behavior of one group of people? If on the other hand, in learned discourses, a group of people reveals that the caliphate was not justified by religious or natural law, is it right to call them Rafizis? 

 

 

You say that the Holy Prophet left the issue of the caliphate to the umma or to the "intelligentsia" of the umma, as you call it. Was the intelligentsia of the umma composed of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Abu Ubaida Jarra. Each proposed the name of the other, and then two of them acknowledged the third. That was all. Is it obligatory for all Muslims to follow them? "Minority," "majority," and "ijma" mean quite different things. If a consultative meeting is held for the consideration of some particular problem, and a smaller number of people gives one opinion, while the larger number gives another opinion, then it is said that one is the opinion of the minority. The opinion of the larger number is called the opinion of the majority, and if all of them (without a single exception) give a unanimous opinion, it is called ijma. 

 

 

Was an ijma reached in the Saqifa or later in the mosque, or after that in the city of Medina? If, however, in deference to your wishes, we take away the rights of the general umma and say that the opinion of the intelligentsia and the Prophet's companions was sufficient for ijma, I ask whether there was an ijma in which all intelligentsia and the Prophet's distinguished companions participated? Did the small group at the Saqifa unanimously agree in its opinion? The reply must be in the negative. The author of Mawaqif has himself admitted that there was no ijma during the caliphate of Abu Bakr, and there was certainly no unanimity of opinion among the learned people in Medina, either. Sa'd Bin Ubaida Ansari, his descendants, distinguished companions of the Prophet, all the Bani Hashim, their friends, and Ali Bin Abu Talib, - all opposed Abu Bakr for six months. These people never did take the oath of fealty to him. In Medina, the seat of prophethood, no ijma was reached in which the intellectuals and the companions supported Abu Bakr as Caliph. Your own great historians, like Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi, Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti, Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, Tabari, Bukhari, and Muslim, recorded that ijma never occurred in Medina. 

 

The Bani Hashim, the Bani Umayya, and the companions in general - except the three people mentioned above - were not present in the Saqifa to cast their vote. Moreover, many strongly opposed the decision. In fact, some prominent companions, who rejected the allegiance at the Saqifa, went to the mosque and protested to Abu Bakr. Of the Muhajirs were Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr Ghifari, Miqdad Bin Aswad Kindi, Ammar-e-Yasir, Buraida Aslami, and Khalid Bin Sa'id Bin As Amawi. Of the Ansars were Abu'l-Hathama bin Tihan, Khuzaima Bin Thabit Dhu'sh-Shahadatain, Abu Ayyub Ansari, Ubai Bin Ka'b, Sahl Bin Hunaif, Uthman Bin Hunaif, who remonstrated with Abu Bakr inside the mosque. I have given only this brief outline of events. No ijma of any kind was reached. The ijma of the intellectuals and the prominent companions of Medina is a flagrant lie. Based on your own sources, I will give you a list of names of some of those who opposed the caliphate. Ibn Hajar Asqalani and Baladhuri, each in his Ta'rikh, Muhammad Bin Khawind Shah in his Rauzatu's-Safa, Ibn Abdu'l-Birr in his Isti'ab, and others say that Sa'd Bin Ubaida and a part of Khazrajis and a group of Quraish did not swear the oath of fealty to Abu Bakr. Moreover, eighteen people who were prominent and distinguished companions of the Holy Prophet did not take the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr. They were Shias of Ali Bin Abu Talib. The names of those eighteen people are as follows: 

 

1. Salman Farsi

2. Abu Dharr Ghifari

3. Miqdad Bin Aswad-e-Kindi

4. Ammar-e-Yasir

5. Khalid Bin Sa'id bin al-As

6. Buraida Aslami

7. Ubai Bin Ka'b

8. Khuzaima Bin Thabit Dhu'sh-Shahadatain

9. Abu'l-Hathama Bin Tihan

10. Sahl Bin Hunaif

11. Uthman Bin Hunaif Dhu'sh-Shahadatain

12. Abu Ayub Ansari

13. Jabir Ibn Abdullah Ansari

14. Hudhaifa bin Yaman

15. Sa'd Bin Ubaida

16. Qais Bin Sa'd

17. Abdullah Bin Abbas

18. Zaid Bin Arqam 

 

And Yaqubi writes in his Ta'rikh: "A group of Muhajirs and Ansars kept themselves aloof from allegiance to Abu Bakr and had were followers of Hazrat Ali. Among them were Abbas Bin Abdu'l-Muttalib, Fazl Bin Abbas, Zubair Ibnu'l-'Awwam Bin As, Khalid Bin Sa'id, Miqdad Bin Umar, Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr Ghifari, Ammar Yasin, Bara'a Bin Azib, and Ubai Bin Ka'b." 

 

Weren't these people the intellectuals of the umma? Ali, Abbas, the uncle of the Holy Prophet and other distinguished persons of the Bani Hashim - weren't these people wise and trustworthy? What kind of ijma was it, which was held without the consultation of these people? When Abu Bakr is selected secretly and other prominent companions are not informed, does this constitute ijma? Or is it political conspiracy? 

 

Moreover, the Bani Hashim, the Prophet's family, were not present at the Saqifa. The precious value of their judgement cannot be denied in view of the hadith narrated on earlier nights, and acknowledged by both sects. The Holy Prophet said: "I leave with you two great things: the Book of Allah (The Holy Qur'an) and my Ahle Bait (members of the holy family: Ali, Fatima, and their issue). If you cling to these two, never, never shall you go astray after me." These people did not support the caliphate of Abu Bakr. In addition, there is another famous hadith known as hadith-e-Safina (Hadith of the Ark), which I have mentioned on previous nights. The Prophet said: "My Ahle Bait is like the ark of Noah. He who boards it is saved, and he who turns away from it drowned." This hadith indicates that, just as Noah's community was saved from the great flood by his ark, our Prophet's community will be saved from disasters by attachment to the members of the Prophet's holy family. Ibn Hajar in his Sawa'iq-e-Muhriqa, page 50, commenting on verse IV, quotes two hadith from Ibn Sa'd about the obligation to follow the holy Ahle Bait of the holy Prophet. In one hadith the Prophet said: "I and my Ahle Bait are a tree of Paradise whose branches are in the earth; so one who seeks the path towards Allah should attach himself to them." 

 

In a second hadith the Prophet said: "Among my umma in every age there are just people from my Ahle Bait who purge the impurities brought into religion by the wrong-doers and who wash away the false claims of the transgressors and the commentaries of ignorant people. Be it known to you that your Imams are certainly those who will guide you to Allah; so you should be careful about those you take to be your guides." The substance of hadith of this kind is that the Prophet said to his community: "Unless you follow my Ahle Bait, enemies will lead you astray." The people who could influence ijma, the allegiance, and the appointment of the caliphs, were opposed to the procedure you have described. So what sort of ijma was that? The notable companions, intellectuals, and the progeny of the Prophet were in Medina at the time of the Saqifa. So there is no doubt that the matter was not decided by a majority vote, not to mention ijma. Ibn Abdu'l-Birr Qartabi, a learned man of your sect, in his Isti'ab, Ibn Hajar in his Isaba, and other ulema write that Sa'd Bin Ubaida, who was a claimant to the caliphate, categorically refused to take the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr and Umar. He did not want to set off a commotion, so he set out for Syria. According to a report in Rauzatu's-Safa, on the instigation of a prominent man he was murdered. According to historians, the man who committed the crime was Khalid Bin Walid. After killing Malik Bin Buwaira and marrying his wife, during the early days of Abu Bakr's caliphate, he was the object of Umar's wrath. When Umar became Caliph, Khalid, attempting to earn his favor, killed Sa'd Bin Ubaida. 


THE ISLAM HISTORY

Sorry forgot to give you link where the hadiths you mentioned can be found:

http://umaa-library.org/sites/default/files/Qaim.Mahdi_.Jesus%20Through%20Shiite%20Narrations.docx

 

And your Problem is?


Statement:

8. I don't know where it is could you kindly point me in the right direction

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016362-proof-of-imam-ali-as-as-khalifa/

 

 

Statement:
9. Imam mahdi is from AHLE BAYT. Kindly go to answer 4.

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235016357-believing-in-the-mahdi-af-is-obligatory/




statement: 

My brother/sister you haven't proven anything. Not even one of the quranic verses you pointed out say that harun a.s will be PERMENANT successor so how does the hadith prove that ali is PERMENANT successor?? Also harun a.s passed away before musa a.s and yusha a.s became the PERMENANT successor.

 

Reply: You did not reply to my answer on this issue, I gave a full detailed one also. Please revise. No need to repeat my self twice.

 


Statement: 

11. Ghadir Khumm. How does ghadir Khumm prove successorship. “Man Kuntu Mawla fa `Ali Mawla.” (Whomsoever’s Mawla I am, this Ali is also his Mawla.) If this was talking about leadership then we have a MASSIVE problem. According to shia interpretations the word maula means leader so lets write it the shia way. Whimsoever's leader I am ali is his leader Right.  So now ali has been declared leader?? BUT where does that leave prophet. Who is now the leader of the Muslims prophet or ali?? Can a non prophet become a leader WHILE a prophet is still alive??
Don't forget the prophet never said the words "AFTER ME". Ghadeer Khumm involves a lot more than meets the eye, kasam bro/sis you need to get off google and go and read authentic reliable books and speak to ulema on both sides sunni and shia. Read what is on this site below and before you start hurling insults like NASIBI website etc, atleast try and give it a try with an open heart, mind, eyes and ears. May Allah guide your heart inshallah. http://www.schiiten....adir-khumm.html 12. Mawla has many meanings

 

Reply: you have just proved to me that you don't read. very Well. I will answer you with the same.

(bismillah) 

 

 

In Musanad Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, 

By Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, 
Verified and Investigated (commentated)

by Hamza Ahmad Al-Zain, Volume 16, page 28

 

He Said: Narrated by Zaid ibn Thabit, He said, The prophet   (pbuh) said: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors), The book of Allah Rope between the heavens and the earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar," 

 

The Chain of Narrators, Hadith 21470, "The Chain is Hassan (good)"

 

____________________________________________________________

Sahih of "Al-Jami" Al Sagheer"

For the Scholar Al-Albani, the 1st Volume, page 482

Hadith 2457,  

The prophet   (pbuh) said: "I am leaving for you two Khalifas (successors), The Book of Allah, rope between the heavens and earth and my Offspring, My Ahlulbayt. They Will not separate until they meet me at the pond (of Kawthar," 

 

Al- Albani says: " It is a SAHIH (perfect)."

_______________________________________________

Now you would probably ask me, What is so special about this phrase?

Well, Firstly, its common with the first phrase in the case of quoting "They Will no separate until they med at the pond (Kawthar). So this is now a foundation that's approved one hundred percent. However, in this particular phrase, there is a bonus feature: "I am leaving with you two Khalifas (successors)!"

 

Go back to grammar, to the dictionaries, to the words of the scholars and Hadiths and find what does "Khalifa" mean. Is there any meaning other than succeed Leadership after me?

 

Specially that the prophet  (s) says "I am leaving IN YOU this successor.

 

So my dear friend, the claim that the prophet   (pbuh) did not give a Khalifaa (leadership) to anyone is Refuted by these Sahih Hadiths, That "I am leaving with (or In) you Two Khalifas (successors)."

 

And now this Also if a Hujjat on you because Allah Subhanaho Wa Talalla, says:
"Whenever you have a Quarrel, Return to God and His Prophet's sayings." (Quran 4:59)

 

and he Also Says:
"Take whatever the prophet comes you with, and whatever he forbids, stay away from." (Quran 59:7)

 

by why? Well the answer is simple, its because  Allah Also says:

"he Does not speak out of his own intuition, but rather a revelation from God." (quran 53:4-5)

 

So I referred back to the prophet's sayings because his sayings are revelations. he said:

"I am leaving in you two Khalifas (successors)."

 

I swear, if one was indeed fair in his research, at least this would be a reason to search Further.!

To see where the truth is, what else do you want the prophet to say to prove Imam Ali's Successorship?

 

ALL these phrases were used: "Wilaya (masterhood), Wali (master), Khalifa (successor)", 
All these phrases were used numerous times....brothers, you say the first two Caliphs deserved their position,

But the prophet here says otherwise!, So, dear brothers, this should be a good reason to search and revise.

____________________________________________________________________________

 

So, the second version of the hadith as I mentioned, differs from the first in one sense and is common with it in another.

The First phrase (Thaqalayn) is SAHIH and so in the second phrase (KHLIFA).

 

Now the third phrase which was Written in:

Ithaf Al Khiyara Al-Mahara",

For the Imam Al-Haafiz Shahaab Ul-Deen Al-Buseeri

Introduced by Sheikh Dr, Ahmad Ma'bad, member of Council of Education in
Imam Muhammad bin Su'ood University, Revised (and reassured) by "dar Al-Mishkat" for Research.
Supervised by Abu Tameem Yassir Ibn Ibrahim, Volume 7, First edition, 1999, Al-Riyadah, Saudi Arabia.

Page 210: In the Door of " In the prophet's quote: 'Whoever I am his mater, Ali is his master.":

 

Narrated By Imam Ali: "The prophet  (s) was there under the tree in (ghadeer) Khum. Then he came out 

and took Ali's Hand and said: 'Don't you testify that Allah is your Lord? they said: 'yes', Then he said: "don't you testify that Allah and his messenger have more right over you, than your own selves, and that Allah and his messenger are your masters?", They said: 'yes'. Then he said: 'whoever God and myself are his mastersthen He (Ali) is his mater. And I left in you that which if you take and Abide by, you would Never go astray,  God's book and My Ahlulbayt."

 

Narrated by Ishaaq, with a SAHIH (perfect) chain of narration

and said by Imam Al Booseeri, 'and the hadith of Ghadeer was directed by Al-Nisai'i.'

_____

I honestly don't know how here in this case "wilaya" would mean "love"...as some Sunni's claim. 
The "Wilayah" (guardianship/mastership) of God and his messenger is for Ali, not just the prophet   (pbuh)!!,
brothers listen to me, This phrase is indeed  great and wondrous phrase (in its meaning and Weight)!

For God's sake pay attention, contemplate and reflect!!:

Again: he said said: 'whoever God and myself are his masters, then He (Ali) is his mater."

Please, ask yourselves and think. Is the "Wilayah (mastership) of God upon us (creation) just to love and support him?" Is it just love really? which makes claim that its means "whoever loves me, shoud love Ali.."???? NO!, and a million times NO....Indeed if this was said in the praise of any other person (sahaba), it would not have been taken lightly!...but when its come to Ali   (as)...ohh no......how very shameful indeed.

 

These phrases and quotes are enough for the whole world, I tell you, but, its just because its in honour of Ali, you find the Ummayyads and those who support them, stand against this. (istaghfralla) what can I say? I'm speechless. lets continue on....The second source is that has been written in:

"Al-Jami'i Al-Kabeer" - 
Sunan Al Tirmidhi,

From Imam Al-Hafidh, revised by Shuaib al-Arnaoot,

Book (part) 6, page 235:

 

Narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah: " I Saw the prophet   (pbuh) in pilgrimage as he was on his camel

speaking. So I heard him Say: 'O people, I have left with you that which if you abide by, you will never go astray, God's Book (Quran) and My (holy) Family (Ahlulbayt)." 

 

We look at the footnotes:
 

Al-Arnaoot's view: This hadith is SAHIH (perfect)

Al-Arnaoot says: AL-Sindi in the explanation of "my Ahlulbayt": it was as if

the prophet (pbih) made them (family) equal in importance even to His position. 

'Just as in his   (pbuh) life, it was Him and the Quran, AFTER HIS LIFE, it was his FAMILY (Ahlulbayt) and

the Quran."

 

________________________________
 

Al - Sunnah : By Imam Abi Bakr Ahmad ibn Abi As'aim (287 AH)

Investigated by Dr Al Jawabra, Professor of Hadeeth at  Imam Muhammad Ibn Su'ood, University

Al- Sumai'y Institution  , Volume 2 page 799

 

The Messenger of Allah  (s) said: "Ali your position to me, is like Harun to Mosa, Expect  

that there will be no prophet after me. and that you are Caliph ​of Every believer After me."

In the commentary: Underneath it:

 

"The Chain of Narrators is Good, and Narrators are the narrators of the TWO SHEIKHS."

 

____________________
 

The Same Hadeeth as mentioned in the book "Al-Sunnah" by Ibn Abi A'asim Al Shaibani (287 AH)
​Investigated by Al- Albani, on page 560, No 1188  
 
 

 

I have another Question I hope you can answer me: according to Ahlul Al Sunnah There are for Khailfas ( al rashidyn)
 

  • Saidina Abu Bakar, 632-634 M
  • Saidina Umar Al-Khatab, (Umar І) 634-644 M
  • Saidina Uthman Affan, 644-656 M
  • Saidina Ali Abi Talib, 656-661 M

 (1)And because you keep mentioned Shura, and it is Supposedly the right way to elect a Caliphate. And we All know Abu Bakr was Nominated by Shura (people chose him) So can you please give me a hadith were Umar Al Khatab was chosen by Shura? And if not that how is he a Caliphate?

(2) Can you please give me a hadith that Uthmn affan was chosen By shura? and if now than how is he a Caliphate?
(3) Can you please give me that Ali (s) was chosen By shura? and if not than how is he a Caliphate?  

(4)​ After that please tell me the Time of each of them being Caliphs?
(5) ​can there be three or Two Caliphs at the same time? and if so, can you please point out a Quranic Verse to prove so? or a     (6) previous Historical happening from the previous prophets (s).???  
_________________________________________


 


You mentioned the following site about Ghadir Khum:
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/http://www.*****************.com/www.http://www.*****************.com/articles/rebuttals/ghadir-khumm.html


 

I refuted it my self, please check the 5-6 Haidths I provided.

and here is a dear site which refuted what was said on what your provided me.

 

http://en.shiapen.com/comprehensive/saqifa/analysis-of-the-events.html


Statement:
14. EXCUSE ME YOU didn't just accuse ME of NOT reading... Did you??

 

Yes.

___________________________________

wa al salam.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Oh right. We forgot.

He appointed himself. Instead of attending the burial of his most beloved friend.

Our bad.

 

It was the ijmah of the sahabah (ra) that Abu Bakr (ra) was to be the first khalifah. Abu Bakr (ra) was the first to calm the Muslims down and take command of the situation when Rasoolullah (saw) passed away. He also visited him when he (saw) had passed, he didn't rush to make himself the khalifah as some Shi'a imply.

 

Circumstances arose that the Shaykhain (ra) were forced to tend to and take care of. 

 

I don't understand why this is a big deal ... Ali (ra) did become a khailfa at the end.

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It was the ijmah of the sahabah (ra) that Abu Bakr (ra) was to be the first khalifah. Abu Bakr (ra) was the first to calm the Muslims down and take command of the situation when Rasoolullah (saw) passed away. He also visited him when he (saw) had passed, he didn't rush to make himself the khalifah as some Shi'a imply.

 

Circumstances arose that the Shaykhain (ra) were forced to tend to and take care of. 

 

I don't understand why this is a big deal ... Ali (ra) did become a khailfa at the end.

 

Ali (as) became Khalifa when brother? sorry I don't want to sound aggressive, but its well knows in history that Abu Bakr took the khilfa off Imam Ali (as). 

and correct me if I am wrong but not all the Sahabah attended Saqifa, so it cannot be a democracy. Also all the lives of the prophets and Imams after prophet Muhammad (pbuh) where chosen By Allah. So can  Abu bakr become Khalifa on pen and paper?

and yes it is a big deal. Attending the Burial of the prophet (pbuh) is more important.

But did'nt the prophet (pbuh) already appoint Ali (As) as Khalifa on Ghadir Khum? 3 months before the prophet (pbuh) died? 

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Ali (as) became Khalifa when brother? sorry I don't want to sound aggressive, but its well knows in history that Abu Bakr took the khilfa off Imam Ali (as). 

and correct me if I am wrong but not all the Sahabah attended Saqifa, so it cannot be a democracy. Also all the lives of the prophets and Imams after prophet Muhammad (pbuh) where chosen By Allah. So can  Abu bakr become Khalifa on pen and paper?

and yes it is a big deal. Attending the Burial of the prophet (pbuh) is more important.

But did'nt the prophet (pbuh) already appoint Ali (as) as Khalifa on Ghadir Khum? 3 months before the prophet (pbuh) died? 

 

A possible rebellion was quelled by Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), the two leaders of the Ummah. And both were involved in the burial so I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

Where did the prophet (saw) explicitly announce Ali (ra) as his first khalifah? Until you can answer that question there is nothing to discuss.

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It was the ijmah of the sahabah (ra) that Abu Bakr (ra) was to be the first khalifah. Abu Bakr (ra) was the first to calm the Muslims down and take command of the situation when Rasoolullah (saw) passed away. He also visited him when he (saw) had passed, he didn't rush to make himself the khalifah as some Shi'a imply.

 

Circumstances arose that the Shaykhain (ra) were forced to tend to and take care of. 

 

I don't understand why this is a big deal ... Ali (ra) did become a khailfa at the end.

 

Can you show me a single example of Ijmah in the Qur'an or any prophet's lifetime?

 

If Allah used Ijmah then why send a prophet who is essentially a dictator, dictating the will of Allah, there is no voting against Allah.

 

There is no such thing as Ijmah in Islam.

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Can you show me a single example of Ijmah in the Qur'an or any prophet's lifetime?

 

If Allah used Ijmah then why send a prophet who is essentially a dictator, dictating the will of Allah, there is no voting against Allah.

 

There is no such thing as Ijmah in Islam.

 

 

There was no need for ijmah when Nabi (saws) was around. Ijmah is used as a tool to make decisions in certain matters ... usually in fiqh. I don't know what school of fiqh you follow or what Shi'asm teaches but ijmah is pretty much used in all of the Sunni schools of fiqh.

 

It was the unanimous decision of the sahabah (ra) and the decision of Rasoolullah (saw) to appoint Abu Bakr as Sideeq (ra) as the first khalifah and immediate successor of the Holy Prophet (saws). The fact of the matter is that the khalifahs in Islam were chosen in order of their rank ... Abu Bakr (ra) being the first and the best of all the sahabah ... Umar (ra) being next, then Uthman (ra), and then Ali (ra). After that, we make no real distinction.

 

If someone says Ali (ra) is ranked higher than Abu Bakr (ra) then that person is wrong. 

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There was no need for ijmah when Nabi (saws) was around. Ijmah is used as a tool to make decisions in certain matters ... usually in fiqh. I don't know what school of fiqh you follow or what Shi'asm teaches but ijmah is pretty much used in all of the Sunni schools of fiqh.

 

It was the unanimous decision of the sahabah (ra) and the decision of Rasoolullah (saw) to appoint Abu Bakr as Sideeq (ra) as the first khalifah and immediate successor of the Holy Prophet (saws). The fact of the matter is that the khalifahs in Islam were chosen in order of their rank ... Abu Bakr (ra) being the first and the best of all the sahabah ... Umar (ra) being next, then Uthman (ra), and then Ali (ra). After that, we make no real distinction.

 

If someone says Ali (ra) is ranked higher than Abu Bakr (ra) then that person is wrong. 

 

I understand Ijma is used in Sunni fiqh.

 

But where is Ijma in Islam?

 

As for Abu Bakr being better than Omar and Omar better than Uthman and Uthman better than Ali... Wouldn't the best one be the one who doesn't use his own mind but uses the teachings of Islam?

 

For instance, Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman all used Ijma, which is nowhere to be found in Islam.

 

Ali did not use Ijma because he could not find it in Islam.

 

It is no different for one to use Buddhist prayer and meditation, burn incense and sit in silence chanting "OMMMMMM" for hours... 

 

Doing this is not found in Islam, but it is found in Buddhist ritual, and it doesn't have to be an act of worship or something Kufr, it is just a method of relaxation, just as Ijma is a method of making decisions.

 

So what else can we create to make Islam better besides Ijma?

 

I'm not telling you that you're wrong, by all means, worship what/who you want when/where/how you want.  That is your freedom. 

 

All I'm saying is that Ijma is nowhere to be found in Islam.

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I understand Ijma is used in Sunni fiqh.

 

But where is Ijma in Islam?

 

As for Abu Bakr being better than Omar and Omar better than Uthman and Uthman better than Ali... Wouldn't the best one be the one who doesn't use his own mind but uses the teachings of Islam?

 

For instance, Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman all used Ijma, which is nowhere to be found in Islam.

 

Ali did not use Ijma because he could not find it in Islam.

 

It is no different for one to use Buddhist prayer and meditation, burn incense and sit in silence chanting "OMMMMMM" for hours... 

 

Doing this is not found in Islam, but it is found in Buddhist ritual, and it doesn't have to be an act of worship or something Kufr, it is just a method of relaxation, just as Ijma is a method of making decisions.

 

So what else can we create to make Islam better besides Ijma?

 

I'm not telling you that you're wrong, by all means, worship what/who you want when/where/how you want.  That is your freedom. 

 

All I'm saying is that Ijma is nowhere to be found in Islam.

 

The source of Ijmah is the fact that its impossible for the sahabah (ra) to unanimously agree upon something that is false or wrong. This ayat is proof of that:

 

4:115 (Y. Ali) If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! 

 

So if you follow something other than what the sahabah (ra) follow and were unanimous upon then you are not upon the truth.

 

Also there is the authentic hadith of Rasoolullah (saw) that states that the ummah will never agree upon error.

 

You are claiming that the first 3 khalifahs all used ijmah while Ali did not. Can you explain how this is possible when the verdict of Ali (ra) would be included in the ijmah? Your other arguments are not even worth responding to.

Edited by Abu Shareef

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Well apparently it is possible for them to unanimously agree on something that is false since there has been war ever since they did Ijma.

 

So either the Qu'ran is wrong or they were wrong...

 

I bet you love them more than the Qur'an to ever admit that they were wrong, so it must be a mistranslation.

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Well apparently it is possible for them to unanimously agree on something that is false since there has been war ever since they did Ijma.

 

So either the Qu'ran is wrong or they were wrong...

 

I bet you love them more than the Qur'an to ever admit that they were wrong, so it must be a mistranslation.

 

You are making no sense. If you are saying that ijmah was never actually used by the companions then that is another thing, but it is part Islam and not a mere invention.

 

Does it really make sense for all of the sahabah to agree upon something that is wrong, including Ali (ra)? Whether Shi'as use it in their fiqh is another thing, but the entire jamat of the companions cannot agree upon something that is false as proven by authentic hadith and as indicated by the Qur'an.

 

Something more important that Shi'as have to prove is any kind of Qur'anic evidence for the Imamah. This is the core of the Shi'a aqeedah and there is no basis for it in the Qur'an. And this is not a fiqhi issue but an issue of belief. Such an important concept and belief must be clearly stated in the Qur'an. The Shi'a madhab is based on the Imamah ... now let us see evidence for it in the Book of Allah.

Edited by Abu Shareef

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You are making no sense. If you are saying that ijmah was never actually used by the companions then that is another thing, but it is part Islam and not a mere invention.

 

Does it really make sense for all of the sahabah to agree upon something that is wrong, including Ali (ra)? Whether Shi'as use it in their fiqh is another thing, but the entire jamat of the companions cannot agree upon something that is false as proven by authentic hadith and as indicated by the Qur'an.

 

Ijma is not to be found in Islam.

 

No Prophet or people ever got together to vote on religious doctrine or leadership.

 

Until Abu Bakr got all trollface and burned down Ali's house and started a civil war that is still raging today.

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Ijma is not to be found in Islam.

 

No Prophet or people ever got together to vote on religious doctrine or leadership.

 

Until Abu Bakr got all trollface and burned down Ali's house and started a civil war that is still raging today.

 

You still don't understand what ijmah is. If your Imams all unanimously decided upon something then wouldn't you follow it? That is basically what ijmah is.

 

Anyway I don't understand why your are arguing over concepts usool that you don't even understand and that has proof of its validity from the Qur'an and is clearly stated in authentic hadith. 

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You still don't understand what ijmah is. If your Imams all unanimously decided upon something then wouldn't you follow it? That is basically what ijmah is.

 

Anyway I don't understand why your are arguing over concepts usool that you don't even understand and that has proof of its validity from the Qur'an and is clearly stated in authentic hadith. 

 

How can a hadith be authentic when it has no basis in the Qur'an or Islam?

 

I'm not arguing I'm just stating the facts.

 

Ijma has no basis in Islam at all, period.

 

You can say it does for as long as you like but it doesn't change the fact that there is no referenced example of Ijma ever happening in Islamic history until Abu Bakr did it.

 

So unless Abu Bakr is a prophet or Islam was incomplete, how can he add something new and change it and make it better, if the belief is that Islam was perfected and sealed by the seal of prophets?

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I just showed you the ayat of the Qur'an that supports ijmah,

 

So you think that if the jamat of the prophet (saw) unanimously agree upon something then their decision is not reliable?? What if all of the Ahlul Bayt agreed upon something, would that decision not be reliable??

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4:115 (Y. Ali) If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge! 

 

This ayat?

 

This does not confirm the validity of Ijma.  This confirms that you do what you were told and follow the path laid out for you.

 

The only way you can imply that Ijma is allowed is by saying that Abu Bakr is infallible and that "men of Faith" here refers to Abu Bakr.  But that is ludicrous and one would have to forego all logic and reason to establish such a baseless and unrealistic conclusion.

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THE ISLAM HISTORY

I love it, really I love it.

1. You're supposed to copy and paste hadith or quran and that's not just any random hadith but hadith that is authentic, not just blindly copy and paste whatever you want. Eg; like you copied and pasted hadith from Kitab al imara sahih Muslim which wasn't even there in the references you or your FRIEND GOOGLE provided. For the record my temper is not rising, I'm sorry if you feel insulted but its just the way I text.

2. If you had bothered reading my answer properly then you would have realised that this is NOT my writing BUT it is the PREFACE of the book you copy and pasted from, maybe you should scroll down and read it:

http://umaa-library.org/sites/default/files/Qaim.Mahdi_.Jesus%20Through%20Shiite%20Narrations.docx

You keep hurling this empty threat at me regarding hadiths in bukhari but you're full of hot air.

You probably do have good knowledge regarding science of hadith I'm not doubting that, but atleast read the PREFACE of the book you took your knowledge from, that's the least you could have done.

Which 4 hadiths you copy and paste so much, how am I supposed to know which 4 hadiths you're talking about??

3. I am nobody to offer you tafsir my brother/sister.

Firstly he is not our HIGHEST tafsir ulama. Believe me I do read a lot more than you.

Obviously like always you have totally misunderstood my explanation as I made in earlier posts.

I said it then and il say it again:

Obeying ulil amr is obligatory BUT only if they stick to quran sunnah hadith.

You see you only quote half verses, I wish you would leave this habit it's very annoying.

Now lets take a look at the FULL verse.

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Now Obeying Allah and messenger is absolutely obligatory and we cannot DIFFER in ANYTHING Allah swt or his blessed prophet pbuh says eg:

Surah 8:20

O you who have believed, obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn from him while you hear [his order]

And many other verses where it is said to us obey Allah and messenger and ALL Muslims believe that this is obligatory, no doubt there is no option of differing regarding this.

Now lets go back to ulil amr. No doubt we must obey ulil amr but only IF they do not go against quran and hadith sunnah.

In this verse Allah says IF you DIFFER, but differ with who?? Allah and messenger?? Or ulil amr??

Now we all believe that obeying Allah swt and prophet pbuh is an absolutely obligatory and then is no question whatsoever regarding DIFFERING with Allah and messenger.

So who is Allah talking about regarding second part of verse?? Those who we may DIFFER with??

There are only three mentioned in this verse Allah swt prophet pbuh and ulil amr. I have discussed Allah (swt) and prophet (pbuh) so this leaves us with ulil amr.

My question is that Allah has said IF you differ with ulil amr refer it to Allah and prophet, but why ??

Surely if those in authority are indeed infalliable imams chosen by Allah and it is USUL AD DIN (FOUNDATION OF SHIA ISLAM) to follow them then why did Allah say IF you differ refer it to Allah (swt) and prophet (pbuh) surely if they were appointed by Allah then differing with them would be disbelieve, because as shia say imamat is USUL AD DIN just like nubbuwah and tawhid.

So in shia islam it is USUL AD DIN to believe in

1. Allah

2. Nubbuwah

3. Imamate

Disbelieving in any of these is disbelieve.

Now in verse 4:59 all three USUL AD DINS are mentioned yet the third one we get the option to disagree with him and we are asked to refer back to the first and second.

So my question is if Allah has given the imams the same position as himself (Allah) and prophet (pbuh) then why IF we differ refer back to Allah and messenger?

Why would Allah say "if you differ" if imams are infalliable and appointed and also when Allah says " if you differ" why would we have to refer it to quran and hadith??

My question is in second part of verse Allah says refer it to Allah ( swt) and messenger) and does not say refer it to ulil amr, right??

So if we have Allah ( swt ) quran and prophet pbuh hadith to refer to why would we need an INFALLIABLE IMAMS?? Don't we have quran and hadith to refer to.

Why has Allah not given ulil amr the same authority regarding being referred to??

What good is an infalliable imam if we have to refer back to quran hadith?? What good are they if the people can DIFFER with them??

My question is if we have quran and authentic hadith WHY do we need an infalliable imam?? What is he doing that some fallible imam can't do if every time the fallible ulil amr messes up we refer back to Allah ( swt) and prophet (pbuh) ie; quran and hadith??

If an infalliable is following quran which is book that can never ever be changed then why do we need an infalliable imam when we have the quran and the example of the prophet, why can't the ulil amr be fallible if all he has to do is follow quran and hadith?? You had Khomeini and now khamenei in Iran who are the ulil amr and yet they are FALLIABLE!!

If khamenei messes up you do just what us SUNNIS did, refer it back to Allah (swt) and prophet ( pbuh) which is what we are instructed to do in verse 4:59 so why does the ulil amr have to be infalliable if we have to refer it back to Allah ( swt ) and prophet ( pbuh )??? Quran and hadith.

Btw those 5 tafseer you have me are in Urdu and I do not know Urdu let alone read and understand it, have you got the English??

Now regarding what you said about abu bakr:

“Now then: O people, I have been put in charge of you, although I am not the best of you. Help me if I do well; rectify me if I do wrong”.

Tarikh Tabari, English translation Volume 9 page 201

This brings back the verse of ulil amr. Abu bakr says "rectify me if I do wrong"

How do we "rectify" him if he does wrong??

We go to verse of ulil amr and we refer back to Allah (swt)and his messenger (pbuh) ie: quran and hadith.

4. I've answered this BUT I will expand on it.

Why do we need infalliable imams to guide us after prophet ( pbuh) ??

We have the quran don't we??

Lets take our times as an example;

WE Muslims who live right now do NOT have an infalliable imam who is guiding us like the earlier generations did have ( according to shia), yet we are still being guided today!!

BUT HOW??

Quran and authentic hadith.

So my question is that if we are guided by quran and hadith then why couldn't the earlier generations??

If we Muslims need all the three USUL AD DINS at all times then why are we deprived of the third?? I mean We have Allah ( swt) and prophet ( pbuh) quran and authentic hadith but why have WE been deprived of the third?? Where is the infalliable who should be GIUDING us??

Instead each sect of Muslims have chosen there ulil amr and expect him to follow quran and sunnah and if we differ with him we refer him back to quran and hadith like we are told to do in verse 4:59 of the glorious quran.

You quoted the hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Kitab al Imara Book 020, Number 4483:

The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish.

Time and time again you totally miss my points.

How does this hadith prove anything for you??

I have told you it is a self fulfilling prophecy. Research it??

Also they will be from QURAISH and not exclusively from banu hashim or AHLE BAYT.

Nor does it say they will be appointed by Allah??

I see how the number 12 gets you all excited but rest assured you are not the only ones to use this as "evidence" against us.

Go and research self fullfilling prophecy.

Also if we need the 3 USUL AD DINS in order to survive then how is imam mahdi guiding us now??? Yet we are still being guided alhamdulillah through the quran and authentic hadith.

Also before you start quoting from tabari's book you should know that majority of his book is unauthentic as he related hadiths from sunni shia and many others. He wanted to create a balanced book.

So before you start COPY AND PASTING randomly from al islam or shiapen or some other dodgy website you should know we do NOT totally trust tabari's work. His hadiths have to be checked over properly.

You have proven 1 thing and that is YOU my friend do not know anything about saqifa.

When the prophet (pbuh) passed away a group if the ansar met in a place known as saqifa. There they wanted to choose their own leader and wanted the emigrants to choose their own.

Now this was a rather dangerous situation as caliphate was the exclusive right of QURAISH.

If abu bakr umar and co never got there when they did this could have caused a lot if bloodshed between Muslims QURAISH and emigrants against the ansar.

If all banu hashim and banu Umayyads etc went to saqifa who would have been left with the body if the blessed prophet(pbuh)??

Umar had to make a quick decision before the ansar chose their own leader to save the ummah from civil war.

I find it rather funny how you bang on about shura and how YOU ask where is shura in quran ???

Why don't you go and ask ali khamenei this question??? How was he ELECTED again??

It is rather hypocritical that you ask this question to me when your own ulama use the same theory!!! (Shura)

Your point number 8.

My problem is that you did NOT read preface before COPY AND PASTING.

Number 9.

1. Imam mahdi will be from AHLE BAYT

You are MASSIVELY MISUNDERSTANDING the meaning of AHLE BAYT. AHLE BAYT is not exclusively only those who were immediately born after prophet pbuh or while prophet was alive. AHLE BAYT are all descendants of ali and fatimah.

If AHLE BAYT are born straight after the leader then is prophet Muhammad NOT part of Ibrahim a.s AHLE BAYT ????

Why do we respect sayyids so much??

Il tell you why it's simple, be side they are from the AHLE BAYT of prophet (pbuh) ali a.s and fatimah r.a!! AHLE BAYT simply means family/bloodline, this is agreed by all Muslims.

Look at Ismaili imams and the other shia sects they all say our imams are from the AHLE BAYT (family/ bloodline) of the holy prophet (pbuh ) ali a.s and bibi fatimah r.a!!

Look at verse 2:124 where Allah promises that the future leaders will be from his offspring (AHLE BAYT)

And they will the righteous!!!

Also are we not the AHLE BAYT of Adam a.s?? Are we not ALL his sons and daughters???

2. I find it rather funny how you ask for a date then you say proudly that you know the date of your imam

Question: did you know the date of your imam BEFORE OR AFTER he was born???

I ask the above question because we do not know his exact date of birth yet, just like the shia never never knew. We will find out his date of birth AFTER his appearance just like the shia found out his date of birth AFTER he was born.

10. You used quranic verses to try and prove ali successorship by pointing out verses regarding harun a.s.

I said to you the quranic verses cannot be possibly talking about the PERMENANT successorship of harun a.s when harun a.s passed away BEFORE musa a.s??

Allah swt of course knew this so why would he send verses regarding the PERMENANT successorship of harun a.s???

What more of an answer do you want???

11. Have yiu read this hadith in books yourself because I'm finding it hard to find this hadith could you kindly point me to your source??

12. Lol you still haven't answered my question yet you point me to websites.

I'm asking you if prophet appointed ali as the leader then where in that hadith does it say "AFTER ME"???

Whosoever maula I am ali is his maula.

1. Why use the word maula in front of thousands when the word maula has multiple meanings??

2. Why not use the word imam or caliph if prophet (pbuh) was talking about leadership. Doesn't that make more sense than using a word "maula" which has multiple meanings.

3. Since there is no mention of the saying "AFTER ME" we can only presume that ali was made leader then.

4. So after appointment of ghadir according to shia ali was appointed "leader" of the ummah so where does that leave the prophet?? Who was the leader then?? Ali a.s or prophet (pbuh)

Point 14.

Maybe you are the one who needs to go and READ authentic books and not quote of GOOGLE all the time.

4:115 (Y. Ali) If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge!

This ayat?

This does not confirm the validity of Ijma. This confirms that you do what you were told and follow the path laid out for you.

The only way you can imply that Ijma is allowed is by saying that Abu Bakr is infallible and that "men of Faith" here refers to Abu Bakr. But that is ludicrous and one would have to forego all logic and reason to establish such a baseless and unrealistic conclusion.

Ahhhhh..... Really...

Well why don't you go and tell that to the ayatollahs in Iran.

How was ali khamenei ELECTED again???

It's funny how its all good for them to do it but when we do it it's unislamic

Can you show me a single example of Ijmah in the Qur'an or any prophet's lifetime?

If Allah used Ijmah then why send a prophet who is essentially a dictator, dictating the will of Allah, there is no voting against Allah.

There is no such thing as Ijmah in Islam.

Why don't you go and ask khamenei, that where is ijma in quran or islam???

The last time I checked he was elected using this very same theory???

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Just the Truth,

I accept that ijma is not a part of Islam, I don't follow Khamenei or ayatollahs.

Do you accept that Ijma is not part of Islam?

There is a surah in quran called surprisingly.....

Surah al shura, amazing isn't it???

Surah 42:38

And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.

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Okay I don't see where in Chapter 42 it says that some people can get together and vote on Islamic rulings and decide how to change Islam.

 

Bottom line is that there is no evidence in Islam for what Abu Bakr and his followers did.

 

Don't you think if Allah were all knowing and in control and wanted Abu Bakr to be the leader that he would've said so at Ghadeer Khum or any other multiple occasions? But Abu Bakr was not even allowed to marry Fatima, everyone wanted to marry Fatima but why not let Abu Bakr marry her if Abu Bakr is the best man? 

 

Oh wait it must be because Abu Bakr isn't good enough for Fatima, and he isn't good enough to lead the muslims, and he isn't knowledgeable enough.  He must have lacked qualifications which is why he had a fight with Ali and other groups of people who disagreed with him having a secret election.

 

Jesus didn't have an election... There is no election for prophets, no body gets up and elects the next prophet... 

 

So what you're telling me is that either Muhammad or Allah are forgetful and didn't realize they forgot to choose a successor... 

 

Or that Muhammad or Allah are forgetful and forgot to tell us to elect our own successor.

 

In any case, proposing that Ijma is the method of choosing a successor is un-Islamic and insulting to an omniscient being.

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