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peace seeker

Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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Dear brother, I seek Refuge from Allah, If I ever Turn into an Ignorant and May Allah guide me and you on the right path. You Constantly Ignored my responses and constantly you have being Taking things out of Context, you have no manners what so ever as your saying "your Ayatollah's" Dear brother Before you start going into the direction of Anger, let me Inform you what Ayatollah is. it is simply a High rank in Scholar Status, for example you have the Shieikh or sayed with his well made Turban Who reads on the "mem'bar" and gives a lecture like all people, these people have studied in "Hawza" which is Where our Islamic Studies engage in. In Such "Hawzas" there are many Classes, such as knowledge of Quran, Ahkla'aq (Manners), Irfa'an (philosophy), Islamic History, Fiqh, narration Science and much more which I cannot Remember at the moment but if you would like to know more on this here is a PDF to read through (clickHere). So Usually Some people spend their Entire life almost 12-20 years even 30 In these Studies and have reached a High Rank and So they Are titled with such a title and people who go through their books have trust in them and ask them Concerning Jurisprudence issues we face in our Day to Day lives. In Both Sects In Sunni and Shia have high Ranked Scholars and they are named Differently, so Perhaps you need to lessen your Commotion on this issue and take it easy, In All sects no matter where you go there will be always an Extremist group, so do not Relate their beliefs to ours. Your false claim that my Beliefs are different to the Shia is Incorrect I have stated everything from our school of thought. I may have erred in some posts, but latter I fixed them and apologized Sincerely. If I have made any errors, then May Allah forgive me. As for what you have said Concerning Prophet Adam (a.s) I read very Well, And I Disagree, as we all must know that Prophet Adam (a.s) was not a prophet when he was in the Heavens, Only when he was brought to earth he became a prophet (peace be upon him) Read :

“You both get down from this [Garden], some of you being the enemies of the other. [On the earth], aguidance will certainly come to you from Me, and then whosoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor will he be unhappy. But whosoever turns away from My reminder, then he shall surely have a wretched life and we shall resurrect him blind.” (20:126)

The Law of the Heavens Differ to the Laws of Earth, We being a prophet is to be a Hujja on the people on earth, to be a Sign of Allah on earth and no Sign of Allah can make an error, if they did, how do you expect the people to accept their message? How would you be able to Distinguish between the prophet and the people? Any being has the Capacity to become 'Infallible; By his own free will, So if prophets made mistakes how would you be able to Distinguish between them? But the prophets are in the manner and in the state of being 'Impossible to Sin' because they Solely act accordance to the Law of Allah. The order given to Adam in Heaven is not same as the orders given to human beings in this world—it is disobedience of the orders given on this earth that constitutes sin. Finally, the Shaytan himself knows that he does not have the power to mislead the prophets, the messengers, and those who are graced with purity by Almighty Himself. When he was given respite by Allah, he declared the following:

“So I swear by Your Might (O Lord) that I will surely mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Yours from among them.” (38:82-3; 15:39-40)

And Allah responds to him by saying,

“…As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people…” (15:41)

The Satan himself knew the limitation of his influence upon the chosen servants of Allah in this world.

Those who believe that Adam committed a sin, describe the eating of the forbidden fruit as the “sin” and Adam's expulsion from the heaven as the “punishment”. However, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:

Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allah had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit, Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after Allah “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”—Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam's coming to the earth was not a “punishment”; and eating was not a “sin”.

Also according to Tafsir al Tabtaba'i (qas) (clickHere) Prophet Adam (a.s) was made a prophet when he was Sent Down to earth. Its very Well known that a prophet is the Term used when One is Sent from God, and to give a message to Humanity and Guide them, this is when you become a prophet and you are in that state being impossible to make a Sin. We talked about Prophet Dawud (a.s) as we mentioned whether he made a mistake or not. In his Way of thinking and manner of What he did (judged) between the people was in Accordance to Allah, and the Law of Allah only, we cannot merely say that a prophet acts on according to what he simply knows, this would be an incorrect way to term it, because what the prophet "knows" is in accordance to what Allah as given him from knowledge, for he is a prophet and he cannot be Simple with short-Knowledge like the people of the earth, because then people would have doubt in his Prophethood, and what a prophet knows according to what 'Allah has given him', cannot fail at any circumstance, nor Situation, nor cause, not can it be affected, nor can the prophet Him self be effected by the people, nor the Shaytan, at all times. How do you think Allah would Preserve his message to Humanity? So its a Crucial point. So Prophet Dawud (a.s) was taught on the issue of the 'Sheep Situation' and later was taught to Prophet Solomon (a.s) ( We mentioned the verses on the previous page ), On the account of Prophet Dawud (a.s) doing Unjust, is not doing Unjust To Allah, Nor is it Doing Unjsut to the Law of Allah, He acted according to the Law of Allah, He the prophet Already knew the Answer to the Situation, so he with no doubt gave a correct answer according to what Allah has Taught him, but due to only listing to one side he taught that he had made a mistake so he fell down in Prostration to Allah seeking Protecting, Now here, this does not mean That he made a Sin or a mistake nor any of sort, but any prophet (a.s) who acknowledges Allah more than any being, is for Fearful then any man, Due to his Fear of Allah its Natural to ask God for forgiveness even when you have not made any sin or mistake, but you have doubt due to fear. For example, people say 'Istaghfrallah' All the time when they doubt in their Salat, or Dua, Or action, or Judgement they make, but that does not make it Wrong, or a sin, or any form of Mistake, And this is due to being Fearful to Allah, so Allah Forgive to assure the Human being, and to give him a sign, so that he may relax on what he thought he had made, to try and put him at peace with him self. This is a very common issue, All people should in fact know this. So in your stance that they commit sin or mistake is Impossible dear brother and is Invalid, so far you have given no Verses Where they actually commit Disobedience to Allah or to the Law of Allah during their time of prophetHood. You must not call Ignore Peoples Answers even if they are long in context, you will get mach far in life when reading and Addressing what people state to make a strong stance, for example when you gave me links to check out, I with no Ignorance read them and went over them, and All of them so far I have refuted as you have tried to refute the narrations I have stated Concerning Ahlulabyt (a.s), but I have proven them with most Certainty.

في ايمان الله

Bro seriously SAVE IT for someone who's actually interested in your none sense!!

the only reason you deny prophet adam a.s was a prophet from the start is because it goes against your aqidah so instead of you bending to the will of islam you want islam to bend to the will of your false aqidah.

If dawud a.s made no mistake then in verse 25 when Allah (swt) says "we forgave him that" what exactly did Allah (swt) forgive him a.s if in mistake was committed

Secondly you deny prophet adam a.s was a prophet from the start and your baseless excuse is because there was no people in paradise for him to lead which is itself false as he a.s had his wife to lead.

You then go on to say he became a prophet when he came to earth which begs the question who was he to lead on earth since when he arrived on earth it was only adam a.s and his wife.

Also how can adam a.s not be a prophet when he knew more than the angels ie " names" and was a teacher to the angels he a.s obviously had a high status to know more than the angels so what was this high position if it wasn't prophethood.

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

the only reason you deny prophet adam a.s was a prophet from the start is because it goes against your aqidah so instead of you bending to the will of islam you want islam to bend to the will of your false aqidah.

 

I don't really get why you continuously Insult me, by calling My Beliefs False, Brother If I thought of your Belief that Way I would still not say it to you in an Indirect manner, I have proven to you the Clarity of what I explain to you. And your Constantly accusing me of Falsehood, yet you cannot go around Picking things which, do not relate to by 'Original Beliefs', For I can do the same, but such conduct would not be fair. So please be Sensible and be reasonable. 
  

Statement:

If dawud a.s made no mistake then in verse 25 when Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says "we forgave him that" what exactly did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him a.s if in mistake was committed

 

If you read in the Reply I made to you, post 454, line 10 on the last Paragraph (there should be the Answer I gave you)

 

 

Statement:

Secondly you deny prophet adam a.s was a prophet from the start and your baseless excuse is because there was no people in paradise for him to lead which is itself false as he a.s had his wife to lead. 

 

Allah Said I will make a Khalifa on this earth you said this is for the prophets Precisely (According to you) So only then Allah was sending prophets, and if your trying to say that he was Sent to his Wife, this would be Invalid, because both Ha'wa and Adam heard the Commandments of Allah. Sense when there prophets in the Heavens? If Allah needed prophets in the Heavens, that means the Angles and So on must be Fallible, and this is Invalid. So there this is a false accusation. 

 

 

Statement:

You then go on to say he became a prophet when he came to earth which begs the question who was he to lead on earth since when he arrived on earth it was only adam a.s and his wife.

 

Its clear When Allah Says I will make a Caliph on earth, ( he said this When the Issue of Adam Begun) Thus meaning he is the First prophet On earth.

 

 

Statement:

Also how can adam a.s not be a prophet when he knew more than the angels ie " names" and was a teacher to the angels he a.s obviously had a high status to know more than the angels so what was this high position if it wasn't prophethood. 

 

So your saying by Having a High Rank In knowledge, it makes him a prophet? What about Iblis? was he not high Ranked when he was Worshiping Allah for more than 3000 Years? what about Ashab al Kahf? Allah Extend their lives for more than Hundreds of years, and what about Mariyam (a.s) ? Where she Reviced Revelation? What about The Successor of prophet Solomon? Who moves the throne, by the help of the angels? did he not Deserve to be a prophet? So you Justification here is False.


 و في ايمان الله

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I ask you again:

 

(1) The prophet peace be upon him Never picked up the hand of Abu bakr, can you please prove this Throught Authentic Narrations.

 

 

The fact that they attacked and Burned the House of Fatima and Imam Ali (A.s) is a Historical Fact and is not from our Invention, this is over 40 narrations of this issue in your own books:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235015738-did-the-prophet-s-appoint-a-successor/page-12

 

Please, When providing a Statement, Give Literature proof that is Authentic in Rejecting the narrations above.

And please read the whole Thread, before hasting in your reply. 

 

When Did Imam Ali (a.s) Rule? When did he become Caliph? was he the First or the Forth? please stop Ignoring the Previous Questions.

(wasalam)

 

1. Abu Bakr (ra) was asked by Rasoolullah (pbuh) to lead salat when he was in his final illness. He personally appointed him as the imam of the ummah. The truth is that Ali (ra) was a young person at the time and wasn't more qualified than the shaykhain, who were elder, senior sahabah.

 

2. This baatil, false, forged, mawdhu narration that finds its origin from a work attributed to Sulaym ibn Qays. Umar (ra) never did anything like that and the same baatil story is just repeated in different works with variations to it. Its part of the Shi'a attack on the sahabah (ra), which seems to be part of your Deen. Had anything like this happened there would've certainly been war. Your conspiracy and war against the jamaat of Rasoolullah (pbuh) is futile. 

 

3. He became khalifah after Uthman (ra) as the fourth khalifah, in the year 656 to the year 661.

Edited by Abu Shareef

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1. Abu Bakr (ra) was asked by Rasoolullah (pbuh) to lead salat when he was in his final illness. He personally appointed him as the imam of the ummah. The truth is that Ali (ra) was a young person at the time and wasn't more qualified than the shaykhain, who were elder, senior sahabah.

 

2. This baatil, false, forged, mawdhu narration that finds its origin from a work attributed to Sulaym ibn Qays. Umar (ra) never did anything like that and the same baatil story is just repeated in different works with variations to it. Its part of the Shi'a attack on the sahabah (ra), which seems to be part of your Deen. Had anything like this happened there would've certainly been war. Your conspiracy and war against the jamaat of Rasoolullah (pbuh) is futile. 

 

3. He became khalifah after Uthman (ra) as the fourth khalifah, in the year 656 to the year 661.

 

 

 

(1) This is Invalid for many reasons According to the earliest version of Muhammad ibn Isshaq, it is reported by Abdullah ibn Zam ibn al-Aswad that he was present near the ailing Prophet (s), when Bilal called out the Azan and inquired as to who should lead the prayers. The Prophet (s) told ibn Zam to ask anyone he may find at hand to lead the prayers. Ibn Zam said that on hearing this he came out, found that Abu Bakr was not present but Umar was. Ibn Zam asked Umar to lead the prayers. When Umar stood up and said the Takbir, the Prophet (s) heard Umar’s booming voice, and said, “Where is Abu Bakr? God and the Muslims refuse that Umar should lead the prayers.” Abu Bakr was sent for, but before he came, Umar had completed the Prayer. Feeling hurt at the incident, Umar asked ibn Zam, “Why did you do this to me? When I led the prayers, I thought that I was complying with the Prophet’s wish.” Ibn Zam replied, “The order was not from the Prophet. When I could not find Abu Bakr, I thought that you are the next best person to lead the prayers and therefore it was I who had asked you to lead the prayer.”

 

-Seeratun Nabi, Vol. 4, p.330.

 

 

The above version is improved and amended by Husain Dayar Bakhti by substituting the words that the Prophet (s) told ibn Zam that he might ask anyone he would find to lead the prayers, and in its place interpolating that the Prophet (s) asked Abdullah ibn Zam to ask Abu Bakr to lead the prayers but not finding Abu Bakr, he asked Umar to lead the prayers.

 

 

-Tarikh al-Khamis, vol. 2 p.181.

 

 

 

dragging on the ground, went into the mosque with the help of two persons…The Prophet (s) led the prayer and Abu Bakr was following him.”[1] Al-Bukhari and Muslim also report on lines similar to Ahmed bin Hanbal, with the addition that when Aa’isha and Hafsa were disputing as to whose father should lead the prayers, the Prophet (s) said, “You are [deceitful and cunning] like the women of Joseph.”[2]

 

-[1] Ahmed bin Hanbal's Musnad, vol. 1, p.356.

-[2] Al-Bukhari, Kitabul Azan and Kitabul I’tisaam, Sahih of Muslim, vol. 1, part 3, p.79.

 

 

At-Tabari has a different version according to which the Prophet (s) asked Abu Bakr to lead the Prayer. Aa’isha said, “Abu Bakr is a soft man.” The Prophet (s) said, “Then ask Umar to lead the prayers.” Umar replied, “I am not going to lead the prayer when Abu Bakr is present.” Therefore, Abu Bakr led the prayers.

 

-Tabari, vol. 3, p.195

 

 

 

The incident was later manipulated in such a way as to suggest that, during the three days preceding the Prophet’s death, Abu Bakr led the prayers according to an indication (Ishara) given by the Prophet (s). This manipulation is later used to suggest that Abu Bakr was indicated to be the successor of the Prophet (s).

 

 

-Habib al-Sayyar, vol. 4, p. 356. Khilafah in Theory & Practice, p.48-49. 

 

 

Thus, historical facts were distorted and the precedence of Abu Bakr and Umar was sought to be established during the last days of the Prophet (s), as a prelude and a step in aide to challenge the wisdom of the Prophet’s words and deeds.

 

-The Caliphate, p. 196-207.

 

After finishing the prayer, the Prophet (s) returned to his chamber and demanded that pen and parchment to be procured to write down his will and testament, so that the Muslim community might be rightly guided and not to fall into gross eternal error.[6] We have recounted this incident in detail in the preceding pages.

 

The Caliphate, p. 212 and footnote 264.

 

 

There are many Contradiction on this issue it has also been Discussed here many times  (Click here) 

 

____________________

And what if Imam Ali (a.s) was young? its funny you people who try to degrade his status, such a shame, for Imam Ali (a.s) Did not fight in Badr? Where was Abu bakr then? Did Imam Ali (a.s) not fight in Uhud?  and tell me H Who held the Winning banner, when all the Sahabah Were scared? Who did the prophet peace be upon him Choose? Who fought the Mushrikeen at the battle of Khandaq? Who one in the War of Suffin? Who Was the First person to accept Islam? Who Did the prophet Lift his hand on the day of Ghadree Khum and say "Who ever I am his Master, Ali is his

Master" there are much more....So let us Continue. 

 

 

(2) I am afraid your mistaken, because Suliaym Ibn Qais was one of the closet Sahabah and was One of the Followers of Imam Ali (A.s) Like Salman al Farisi and Abu thar Al Ghafari, and Hujir, and Many more, Who gave Allegiance to Imam Ali (a.s) and to refresh your Information this Hadith has been narrated from not just one Sahabah but more, and if you click on the page were I posted (With scanned Proof) you can see them and their Authentication, This has also been Mentioned In Tarikh al Tabari, and Tarikh al Yaqubi, and others. And more then 40 narrations in the books of ahlul-Sunnah.

 

________________________

(3) This would be False according to the Sunnah, Since Umar Ibn al Khattab Appointed Muwiuyah as Caliph, and then we have the War of Suffin, so tell how can he Claim war on the Caliph of his time, and When Mu'aiyah is the Caliph appointed by Umar ibn al Khattab? Did he make the Wrong Discussion also Imam Ali (a.s) was appointed Caliph on the Day of Ghadeer Khum By the prophet him self (p.b.u.h), and not only that the Shaykhain Congratulated Him.

  

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Brother Just the truth, a very simple question again, do you believe that all Messengers and Prophets are infallible??? And how would you define being infallible???


1. Abu Bakr (ra) was asked by Rasoolullah (pbuh) to lead salat when he was in his final illness. He personally appointed him as the imam of the ummah. The truth is that Ali (ra) was a young person at the time and wasn't more qualified than the shaykhain, who were elder, senior sahabah.

 

2. This baatil, false, forged, mawdhu narration that finds its origin from a work attributed to Sulaym ibn Qays. Umar (ra) never did anything like that and the same baatil story is just repeated in different works with variations to it. Its part of the Shi'a attack on the sahabah (ra), which seems to be part of your Deen. Had anything like this happened there would've certainly been war. Your conspiracy and war against the jamaat of Rasoolullah (pbuh) is futile. 

 

3. He became khalifah after Uthman (ra) as the fourth khalifah, in the year 656 to the year 661.

 

No offence and no disrespect but the Shaikhain (ra) were not more qualified than Hazrath Ali (as) in any field, subject or way. The Shiakhain (ra) accepted Islam in their early forties. They were more influenced by the tradition and ways of the generation of ignorance [Zamana-e-Jaheliyath] and it is obvious that, it took them sometime to understand and get use to Islam. They spent most of their lives in Kufar and Shirk. Where as Hazrath Ali (as) was free from all this.


Shia attack on the Sahaba??? part of your deen??? You must be joking??? The Shia don't call anybody Kafir. They don't attack anybody, so why would they attack the Sahaba???


Conspiracy and war against the Jama'ath of Rasoolullah (pbuh)??? For conspiracy you need techniques and tactics and for war, you need finance and arms, along with support of the west. Saudi Arabia, along with the small Arab states, are doing a pretty good job of this. What and who is this self proclaimed Jama'ath you speak of???

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O Messenger, Proclaim what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His Message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people

(Qur'an: Chapter 5, Verse 67)

Even if He a.s. didn't appointed successor, Ali a.s. is his real successor according to many hadiths regarding a merits of Hz. Ali a.s.

Edited by Haji 2003

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Even if He a.s. didn't appointed successor, Ali a.s. is his real successor according to many hadiths regarding a merits of Hz. Ali a.s.

 

Yes, Knowing that Imam Ali (a.s) had many Characteristics and was one of the most close to the prophet peace be upon him. Comparing him to the Shaykhain, is Impossible, because they amount to absolutely nothing, compared to Imam Ali (a.s). 

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2. This baatil, false, forged, mawdhu narration that finds its origin from a work attributed to Sulaym ibn Qays. Umar (ra)

 

 

 

 

Salman al Farisi (R.a) was Present During the Attack of the house of Fatima (a.s) and Sulaim ibn Qais (R.a) was One of the Close people to Salaman, and that is why at some level he is trusted, but There is a more deeper Analysis on the reasons, but My mistake, Sulaim Ibn Qais Was not with Imam Ali (a.s), he only was with Salman.

(wasalam)  

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Statement:

the only reason you deny prophet adam a.s was a prophet from the start is because it goes against your aqidah so instead of you bending to the will of islam you want islam to bend to the will of your false aqidah.

I don't really get why you continuously Insult me, by calling My Beliefs False, Brother If I thought of your Belief that Way I would still not say it to you in an Indirect manner, I have proven to you the Clarity of what I explain to you. And your Constantly accusing me of Falsehood, yet you cannot go around Picking things which, do not relate to by 'Original Beliefs', For I can do the same, but such conduct would not be fair. So please be Sensible and be reasonable.

Statement:

If dawud a.s made no mistake then in verse 25 when Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says "we forgave him that" what exactly did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him a.s if in mistake was committed

If you read in the Reply I made to you, post 454, line 10 on the last Paragraph (there should be the Answer I gave you)

Statement:

Secondly you deny prophet adam a.s was a prophet from the start and your baseless excuse is because there was no people in paradise for him to lead which is itself false as he a.s had his wife to lead.

Allah Said I will make a Khalifa on this earth you said this is for the prophets Precisely (According to you) So only then Allah was sending prophets, and if your trying to say that he was Sent to his Wife, this would be Invalid, because both Ha'wa and Adam heard the Commandments of Allah. Sense when there prophets in the Heavens? If Allah needed prophets in the Heavens, that means the Angles and So on must be Fallible, and this is Invalid. So there this is a false accusation.

Statement:

You then go on to say he became a prophet when he came to earth which begs the question who was he to lead on earth since when he arrived on earth it was only adam a.s and his wife.

Its clear When Allah Says I will make a Caliph on earth, ( he said this When the Issue of Adam Begun) Thus meaning he is the First prophet On earth.

Statement:

Also how can adam a.s not be a prophet when he knew more than the angels ie " names" and was a teacher to the angels he a.s obviously had a high status to know more than the angels so what was this high position if it wasn't prophethood.

So your saying by Having a High Rank In knowledge, it makes him a prophet? What about Iblis? was he not high Ranked when he was Worshiping Allah for more than 3000 Years? what about Ashab al Kahf? Allah Extend their lives for more than Hundreds of years, and what about Mariyam (a.s) ? Where she Reviced Revelation? What about The Successor of prophet Solomon? Who moves the throne, by the help of the angels? did he not Deserve to be a prophet? So you Justification here is False.

و في ايمان الله

So what if Allah (swt) made adam a.s a caliph for earth this proves nothing and is a weak argument. Personally I'm wasting my time debating this issue with you because you are speaking against your own mufassireen/scholars.

I will go deeper into this when I get back from my holiday.

Your scholars acknowledge prophet adam a.s WAS a prophet at the time of making the mistake BUT then to back themselves up they say it was "advised" to adam a.s.

Excuse me but if it was merely "advice" then disobeying advice is not a sin nor a mistake so why did Allah (swt) call it a sin. Why was adam a.s sent to earth if it was merely "advice"

We see here:

The other position—which seems to be the CORRECT ONE OF THE TWO—IS THAT ADAM (ع) WAS IN FACT A PROPHET WHEN COMMITTING THE DEED IN QUESTION for JIBRA'IL WOULD VISIT HIM AND THE VISITATION OF JIBRA'IL INDICATES PROPHETHOOD, for he does not visit anyone BUT PROPHETS. This point is strengthened by the fact that Allah(awj) TAUGHT ADAM (ع) ALL THE "NAMES" and it was only he that knew them and NOT EVEN THE ANGELS HAD THAT KNOWLEDGE. . On that account, Adam (ع) was appointed teacher to the angels, bestowing to them the knowledge of the “names”. ALL THESE INCIDENTS WERE PRIOR TO ADAMS (ع) EATING FROM THE FORBIDDEN TREE. Hence, it can be inferred that Adam (ع) WAS IN FACT A PROPHET WHEN HE COMMITTED THE DEED IN QUESTION.

The PROBLEM IS THAT according to the Shi’a school of thought, prophets are absolutely infallible and are even free of minor sins. Thus, the prohibition MUST BE INTERPRETED AS AN ADVISORY warning and so Adam’s (ع) guilt was neglecting that which was more meritorious. But since prophets are at a high station of Divine knowledge, THEY ARE GUILTY EVEN IN THE CASE OF NEGLECTING WHAT IS MORE MERITORIOUS. This is witnessed also in the stories of Yunus (ع) (when he became angry with his tribe and lost all hope in guiding them and so abandoned them without asking permission from Allah (awj), whereat Allah (awj) confined him to the belly of a whale, where if he had not become contrite and tepented he would have remained till the Day of Judgment)1 and Yusuf (ع) (when he sought help from an inmate instead of Allah (awj) for deliverance from prison).

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-22-original-sin-adam-and-eve#detailed-answer

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Adam was ADVISED not to approach the tree if he wanted to live in the blissfulness he was in, otherwise he would have to leave it and go into the world to face its hardship and its tests and trials. Adam apparently chose the life of the world. See commentary of Baqarah: 30 to 38; Araf: 11 to 25; Hijr: 28 to 42; Bani Israil: 61 to 65 and Kahf : 50.

http://quran.al-islam.org

I bought this in my last reply and you come back with the opinions of other schools of thought that al islam was just going through.

So in simple words what your scholars are saying is that adam a.s was a prophet at the time of committing the deed BUT because it goes against our belief we have to manipulate the situation so the quran bends to our will and not vice versa.

You also should not have a problem accepting the word "sin" since you said "adam a.s did not commit the "sin/disobedience" while he was a prophet" this was your original argument so you've admitted eating from the tree was a "sin" but the only difference we had was whether adam a.s WAS a prophet at that time or not and since I've proven you wrong in the matter that adam a.s WAS a prophet when he ate from the tree it only proves that it was a "sin" because you said adam a.s did not eat from the tree ie ; "sin" while he was a prophet which I have proven you wrong in this flawed theory of yours.

Anyway this doesn't matter to you since you don't agree with this view, but you stubbornly hold the view that adam a.s was NOT a prophet when he ate from the tree . I highly suggest my brother you open your heart and go and see a sunni alim and not rely too much on google.

Like I said when I get back I will go into this in much more detail.

‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas narrates from the Holy Prophet that after creating Adam Allah made him stand near Him. Adam sneezed. The Almighty sent a DIRECT REVELATION TO HIM and he praised Allah.

The Almighty said, “O Adam! You have praised Me! By My Might and Greatness if I did not intend to create two persons at the time, I would not have created you.”

“O my Lord!” said Adam, “By the exalted status of those personalities, please inform who those two are.”

“O Adam! Look upon the Divine Throne.” When Adam looked he saw two lines inscribed on the Holy Throne. The first line said, “Muhammad is the Prophet of Mercy and ‘Ali is the key to Paradise.” The second line was: “I swear by My Holiness, I shall have mercy on those who love them and punish those who hate them and are inimical to them.

“She is my slave-girl, Hawwa’,” said the Lord. “Do you want her to live with you, remain attached to you, converse with you and do what you bide her?”

“Yes, my Lord!” replied Adam, “As long as I live, I shall continue to thank you.”

“Then you pray for her and request me so.”

At that moment Allah created in Adam the desire of seeking the nearness of woman and He had ALREADY TAUGHT ADAM THE TENENTS OF FAITH Adam said, “My Lord! You have permitted me to take her, but what can I give in return so that You are pleased?”

“IMPART TO HER RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE and I shall be satisfied with you.”

“I shall do as You desire,” agreed Adam, “I accept!” said Allah, “I hereby marry her to you. Take her.”

MY ANSWER

ADAM a.s taught TENENTS of faith.

Allah said, “I have created you so that you believe in My Oneness, worship Me, have faith in Me, do not deny Me and do not associate anyone with Me.”

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/merits-adam-and-hawwa%E2%80%99-eve-reasons-behind

Also you said adam a.s was NOT teaching hawwa r.a this was also your argument that adam a.s was not a prophet because he had no one to " teach" but the above says" Impart to her religious knowledge"

So you're wrong. Adam a.s WAS "teaching" hawwa r.a so no she r.a was not listening directly to Allah (swt)as you say. Even IF she r.a was listening "directly" adam a.s was still "teaching" hawwa religious knowledge which shows adam a.s was a prophet from the start and was teaching hawwa r.a which proves his prophethood started from the start as he was teaching his wife. "Impart to her religious knowledge".

You must accept prophet adam a s was a prophet from the start you have no other choice.

Brother I can't believe to the lengths you are going to defend your belief. You are saying why did Allah (swt) not make Mariam a.s and the sleepers etc prophets well excuse me but isn't it up to Allah (swt) who he chooses as a prophet a.s.

No matter how hard man tries he can never become a prophet. Allah (swt) chooses prophets FULL STOP.

According to an authentic source Imam Musa Ibn Ja‘far said, “A Jew came to Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali and requested him to show a miracle like the Prophets of the past had shown. He asked, “Was it due to the lofty position of Muhammad that Almighty Allah ordered the angels to prostrate before Adam?”

‘Ali said, “That’s right. But their prostrations were not those of worship. The Angels did not worship Adam. Their prostration was an acknowledgement of respect for Adam due to his extraordinary virtues.”

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/merits-adam-and-hawwa%E2%80%99-eve-reasons-behind

MY ANSWER

Brother look at the high status of adam a.s if this is not prophethood then what was it.

If adam a.s never ate from that tree today you would NEVER not in a million years deny he a.s was a prophet a.s from the start.

But brother just because this believe does not fit in with your aqidah you decide to make islam bend to your will when instead you should bend to islams will.

We also see::

Authentic chains quote Imam al-Ridha from his ancestors from Amir al-Mu’minin ‘Ali that the Holy Prophet said, “The Almighty Allah has EXALTED His PROPHETS and MESSENGERS OVER THE ANGELS, and He is has exalted me over the other Prophets and Messengers. And after me you ‘Ali and the Imams from your progeny have been exalted over the other people. Then he said, “The Almighty Allah created Adam and entrusted us to his backbone. Then Allah commanded the Angels to bow down as a mark of respect. But their prostration denoted Allah’s worship and obedience and an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF ADAMS EXALTED POSITION. It was a Sajdah of obedience because we were in his (Adam’s) loins. Thus how could we not be superior to the Angels? While they all prostrated to Adam.4

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/merits-adam-and-hawwa%E2%80%99-eve-reasons-behind

read above with an open heart brother.

Allah (swt) exalted prophets and messengers over angels.

So adam a.s was "exalted" over the angels through his knowledge because he was a prophet a.s, so this proves when Allah (swt) "exalted" adam a.s above the angels he was a prophet a.s, ie; when he (swt) taught him "names" he was "exalted" over angels which occurred BEFORE he a.s ate from the tree, because Allah (swt) "exalted" PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS over the angels.

You also keep claiming you have answered me regarding dawud a .s surah 38:25 when you havnt.

It says "we forgave him that" I'm asking you what did Allah (swt) forgive him ??

You also said the words used in the previous verse is "protection" and not forgiveness could you explain how that manes sense??

So dawud a.s asks for protection but Allah (swt) replies saying we forgave him that??? Like that even makes sense.

For the record. The burning if the four is a load of rubbish. Ali a.s would never sit back and watch this happen.

You shia don't realise but by trying to make umar r.a look bad you're making ali a .s look bad too.

An unbias person will ask where was ali a.s.

Feel free to leave a reply as I will be continuing this debate when I get back from my holiday inshallah.(if I'm still alive lol. That countries lawless I tell ya lol).

IF FOR SOME REASON I GET BANNED FROM THIS FORUM WHILE I AM AWAY I WILL WHEN I GET BACK OPEN AN ACCOUNT ON THE ISLAMIC FORUM AND THROUGH A THIRD PERSON INVITE YOU THERE FOR A DEBATE AS THERE IS STILL SOO MUCH TOO DISCUSS BUT UNFORTUNATELY MY BROTHER WITHOUT MY PERMISSION BOOKED ME A FREE TICKET TO PAKISTAN AS A "SURPRISE". I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED AT THE FACT THAT I CANNOT CONTINUE WITH THIS DEBATE DUE TO THE ABOVE CIRCUMSTANCES.

Assalamu alaykum

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(bismillah)

 

 

 

 

First of all I would like to say You have made Many Insults brother, and I think its time You Start Behaving in a more appropriate manner dear brother. Ignoring my Response to what you are Repeatedly Providing is not the way to go during a debate, but we see this so called "Debate" of yours has turned into a baseless agreements Which has No Contention at all. Second of all, All you have done is provide articles from people of the same School of thought as us, but they do not Represent the Shia as a whole, because of Course in all Schools of thought you have those who have different views within the school, but the "main" Faith foundations by the School Do not change. So Dear brother let us first look into the main Tafsir of the Shia and then the Sunnah and compare, Analyse and Conclude.



We take a read into the Tafsir al Tabataba'i Volume 1, page 147:
 

 

"The sentence, "and the disobedience was... in the Garden", points to what we have already mentioned that there was no religious law ordained in the Garden; and that Adam (a.s.) even before his creation, was destined to live in the earth; and, therefore, the disobedience was of an advice, and not of an ordained law. In this context, there appears no reason why anyone should try (as someone has done) to explain away this tradition in a round-about way."  

 

 

 

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Also we continue Reading:
 

"First: Allah said in this, as well as in Chapter 7, that eating of the tree would be an injustice, a wrong-doing(for then you will be of the unjust). The same result has been described two as "toil" (so that you should be put to toil); and the "toil" has been explained in the terms of worldly needs and troubles, because it was ordained "for you that you shall not be hungry therein (i.e., as long as you remained in the Garden) nor bare of clothing; and that you shall not be thirsty therein nor shall you feel the heat of the sun." It seems clear that it was to protect them from these worldly troubles and toils that they were told not to go near that tree, The prohibition, therefore, was not more than an advice; certainly it was not an authoritative command. Going against an advice does not entail a sin, does not involve rebellion against the adviser. The injustice, mentioned in this story, therefore, means their doing wrong against their own selves, putting themselves in this world's hardship and toil; but it cannot mean the sin committed by a servant against his master.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Second: When a servant repents, that is, returns to Allah, his Lord, and the Lord accepts that repentance, all the effects of the sin are erased, as though he had not committed any sin at all. If the prohibition against eating from the tree had the force of an authoritative command, an ordained law, Adam and his wife should have been returned to their place in the Garden as soon as their repentance was accepted. But they were not. It decisively proves that the prohibition was of advisory nature like telling someone not to put his hand in a fire; if he does not listen to the advice, his hand would certainly burn, and the subsequent apology would not unburn it, even if the apology was accepted. Likewise, Adam and his wife disregarded the advice, and as a result of eating from the tree, had to go out of the Garden and live in the earth a life of trial and hardship. Their repentance could not take them back to the Garden as their coming to the earth was the natural and inevitable result of that action. The prohibition, in short, was not a law ordained by the Master - like the announcement that the shari'ah would be punished. if it were like such a command, the repentance would have rubbed out the effect of disobedience and they would have been sent back to the Garden straight away."

 

 

"Third: We said: "Get down you therefrom all together; and if there comes to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve. And (as to) those who disbelieve in, and belie, Our signs, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide." These verses have put in a nutshell all the detailed laws, rules, and regulations sent by Allah for the mankind, through His angels, books and apostles. And it was the first shari'ah which Allah ordained for the world, the world of Adam and his descendants. It was ordained after the second order to "get down" - and the order to "get down" was not a legislative, but a creative, command, resulting from his eating of the tree."

 

 

It means that at the time when Adam partook of the tree, no shari'ah was ordained yet, and no law was promulgated. Therefore, whatever Adam did was not a transgression against any law of the shari'ah, nor was there any sin or crime involved in acting against that advice.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

In the light of this Tafsir Its clear to us that in the heavens Obligatory Laws "Sharia" Did not Exist for Adam, Nor hawa peace be upon them, and that order of Allah not to eat from the Tree was not an, order but a mere advise, as he explained if it was a sin and their was an actual repentance, they should have 'Stayed' In paradise and nor exiled from it, due to knowing that When Allah accepts Repentance, all effects of the sins are eased, but with that we see that Adam and Hawa peace be upon them yet were Put on earth even when Allah accepted their Repentance despite their sincerity to Allah. It strange how you think, when people do certain actions and say "May Allah" forgive me, and Allah Forgives them, you assume its a sin. Now that is of course false to think of such, because we both agree that the Holy Prophet peace be upon him, is Infallible, So why do you think he repentance to Allah more the Seventy times a day? it is Recorded in Bukhari, Narrated by Abu Huraira "I heard Allah's Apostle saying." By Allah! I ask for forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day." ( Volume 8, Book 75, Number 39). This sort of Repentance in Natural for every being, and it is one of the things you do when you are humiliated and humble before Allah (S.W.T), this could be sometimes due to you need for him, or your realization of his Greatness and Asking him to have mercy on you on the day of judgement. And this is the same issue with Prophet Dawud (a.s), he made no mistake, nor sin, nor has he made an Unjust Action in accordance to law of Allah, but rather an Unjust between the Two men, Feeling that he is test by Allah, it would be natural to think that you may have done something wrong because your not sure of what you did and ask Forgiveness to assure your self that even so, Allah has forgiven you. Your false view that it is Minor mistake, still does not in reality exist, because a mistake/Sin to Allah must be a certain issue/actions against his Law, and we all know very well that All the prophets peace be upon them all act on accordance to the Law of Allah, so when knowing the Laws of Allah, how can you possibly make a sin or a mistake? Now to go further into detail there are to types of command the first is Al-amr al-mawlawi, a legislative command. Such orders must be implemented; and, if someone disobeys such a command, then he is committing a sin and is liable to be punished. For example, the command to “say the daily prayers” or “do not eat the pork” is of such nature. Neglecting the daily prayers or eating of the pork is a sin and Allah can rightly punish the sinner. The second is  Al-amr al-irshadi, an advisory command. Such orders are of advisory nature; their purpose is to inform the people about its consequences. However, if someone disobeys such an order, then he is not committing a sin; of course, he will have to face the consequences of not following the advice. For example: a person comes to his doctor complaining of cough. The doctor advises his patient to drink a certain medicine, a cough syrup. Now if the patient ignores that advice, then he is not committing a sin or a crime; but he will surely suffer the consequence — his illness will be prolonged and his health might deteriorate. not all commands of Allah are of obligatory or prohibitive nature. The advice given to Adam and Hawwa was not of the legislative nature. It was not that that particular tree and its fruit themselves were forbidden. The prohibition of going near that tree and eating its fruit was al-amr al-irshadi. And going against such an order is not a sin; at most, the doer will have to face the consequences of ignoring that advice. In case of Adam and his wife, the consequence they faced was cancellation of their tenure as guests of Allah in the Paradise and its comforts. Remember that they were not supposed to stay in the Paradise forever; they were created for the earth, and their stay in the Paradise was meant to be temporary.  The Garden/Paradise is not the place for test and trial. It is this earth on which human beings have been destined to go through test and trial by obeying the commands of Allah. The concept of sinning in case of human beings is connected to the worldly life. On the issue weather he became a prophet on earth or heaven that I cannot deny, but you have misunderstood me for what I meant, and that is the from the Beginning of prophet-hood on earth to the end of it, they cannot simply make Mistakes or even a minor sin as such, because the Righteous path (Sirtat a'l-Mustaqim) cannot be effected by a single mistake, and that is the path, which Allah has made for us, and the prophets peace be upon them all, are the ones who invite us to the path of Allah, so if Allah is Guiding us, and we have to accept the truth, do you think their would be a mistake committed by the person who Allah appoints to guide Mankind? This is were we find the concept of Prophets making Mistakes/sins is Invalid my dear brother. Now let us take a look at the Sunni Tafsir of this issue we read In:


Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Volume 1, page 372: 

 

 

 

38. We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Hudan (guidance) from Me, and whoever follows My guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.) (39. But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) ـ such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shall abide therein forever.'')

 

Allah stated that when He sent Adam, Hawwa', and Shaytan to earth from Paradise, The meaning wanted, is that He will reveal Books and send Prophets and Messengers, . Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "Al-Huda, refers to the Prophets, Messengers, the clear signs and plain explanation.''

 

﴿فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَايَ﴾

 

 

 

(And whoever follows My guidance) meaning, whoever accepts what is contained in My Books and what I send the Messengers with,

 

 

﴿فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ﴾

 

 

(There shall be no fear on them) regarding the Hereafter,

 

﴿وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ﴾

(nor shall they grieve) regarding the life of this world. Similarly, in Surat Ta Ha, Allah said,

 

 

﴿قَالَ اهْبِطَا مِنْهَا جَمِيعاً بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّى هُدًى فَمَنِ اتَّبَعَ هُدَاىَ فَلاَ يَضِلُّ وَلاَ يَشْقَى ﴾

 

 

(He (Allah) said: "Get you down (from the Paradise to the earth), both of you, together, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, he shall neither go astray, nor shall he be distressed.) (20:123)

 

 

Ibn `Abbas commented, "He will not be misguided in this life or miserable in the Hereafter.'' The Ayah,

 

 

﴿وَمَنْ أَعْرَضَ عَن ذِكْرِى فَإِنَّ لَهُ مَعِيشَةً ضَنكاً وَنَحْشُرُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيـمَةِ أَعْمَى ﴾

 

 

(But whosoever turns away from My Reminder (i.e. neither believes in this Qur'an nor acts on its teachings) verily, for him is a life of hardship, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Resurrection.) (20:124) is similar to what Allah stated here,

 

 

﴿وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَكَذَّبُواْ بِآيَـتِنَآ أُولَـئِكَ أَصْحَـبُ النَّارِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَـلِدُونَ ﴾

 

 

(But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat ـ such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shall abide therein forever), meaning, they will remain in Hell for eternity and will not find a way out of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

يقول تعالى مخبرا عما أنذر به آدم وزوجته وإبليس حتى أهبطهم من الجنة ، والمراد الذرية - أنه سينزل الكتب ، ويبعث الأنبياء والرسل ؛ كما قال أبو العالية الهدى : الأنبياء والرسل والبيان ، وقال مقاتل بن حيان الهدى محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم . وقال الحسن الهدى القرآن . وهذان القولان صحيحان ، وقول أبي العالية أعم . 

فمن تبع هداي أي : من أقبل على ما أنزلت به الكتب وأرسلت به الرسل ( فلا خوف عليهم أي : فيما يستقبلونه من أمر الآخرة ( ولا هم يحزنونعلى ما فاتهم من أمور الدنيا ، كما قال في سورة " طه " : ( قال اهبطا منها جميعا بعضكم لبعض عدو فإما يأتينكم مني هدى فمن اتبع هداي فلا يضل ولا يشقى ) [ طه : 123 ] قال ابن عباس فلا يضل في الدنيا ولا يشقى في الآخرة . ( ومن أعرض عن ذكري فإن له معيشة ضنكا ونحشره يوم القيامة أعمى ) [ طه : 124 ] كما قال هاهنا : ( والذين كفروا وكذبوا بآياتنا أولئك أصحاب النار هم فيها خالدون أي : مخلدون فيها ، لا محيد لهم عنها ، ولا محيص . 

وقد أورد ابن جرير ، رحمه الله ، هاهنا حديثا ساقه من طريقين ، عن أبي مسلمة سعيد بن يزيد ، [ ص: 241 ] عن أبي نضرة المنذر بن مالك بن قطعة عن أبي سعيد - واسمه سعد بن مالك بن سنان الخدري قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : أما أهل النار الذين هم أهلها فإنهم لا يموتون فيها ولا يحيون ، لكن أقواما أصابتهم النار بخطاياهم ، أو بذنوبهم فأماتتهم إماتة ، حتى إذا صاروا فحما أذن في الشفاعة وقد رواه مسلممن حديث شعبة عن أبي سلمة به . 

وذكر هذا الإهباط الثاني لما تعلق به ما بعده من المعنى المغاير للأول ، وزعم بعضهم أنه تأكيد وتكرير ، كما تقول : قم قم ، وقال آخرون : بل الإهباط الأول من الجنة إلى السماء الدنيا ، والثاني من سماء الدنيا إلى الأرض ، والصحيح الأول ، والله تعالى أعلم بأسرار كتابه ] . 


 

 

 

 

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Dear brother here you can see very clearly in tafsir Ibn Kathir, that 'Only' When Allah Brought/Sen down Adam, Hawa, Iblis to earth, that he meant According to the verse and tafsir Ibn kathir, that 'He' 'Will' Send Prophets and messengers, and books of Revelation and that is the mission of being in the state of "Prophethood" and that does mean that I am saying "He is/Was, not prophet" (Na'aozobillah). As we see very clearly, your argument that he taught Ha'wa and the Angels the "names", and so you claim that he was in the state of "Prophethood", is false, because thereby your applying that due to him teaching Ha'wa his wife and the Angels the "names" then that means he is a Messenger to the Angels as well? If so, then why would angels need a messenger are they misguided? was H'awa Misguided before Adam (a.s) Taught them the names?. And so as we have explained Earlier on, there can be no Islamic Laws (Sharia) in the heavens, nor can there be Obligatory Actions to do, such as prayer, but Giving a Command on a 'certain' issue, then that is separate on the spectrum here.


  

 

 


Statement:

 

 

You shia don't realise but by trying to make umar r.a look bad you're making ali a .s look bad too. An unbias person will ask where was ali a.s.

 

 

 

 

I Don't see what this has got to do with the topic? How many times do you Insist on Manipulating the Argument Dear brother? And What has Umar Got to do with Ali (a.s)? He does not even care of him, nor does he care of Ahlulbayt (a.s). And How am I making Umar look bad? And what are you talking about? "Where was Ali?" please make a proper statement.
 

 

في ايمان الله

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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(bismillah)
 
 
For the Arabic Readers.

________________________________________________________
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
ذا قلنا: إنّ الأنبياء (عليهم السلام) معصومون، فكيف ياترى التوفيق بين هذه النظرية وبين ارتكاب النبي آدم (عليه السلام)
، النهي الصادر إليه في خصوص الأكل من الشجرة؟
 
 
 
الجواب: من خلال مراجعة مجموع الآيات التي تتعلّق بقصة آدم (عليه السلام)  يتّضح انّ آدم قد خالف الأمر الإلهي الموجّه إليه في خصوص الأكل من تلك الشجرة المنهي عنها، وقد عُبِّر عن تلك الواقعة  بتعابير مختلفة من قبيل: ( ...ذاقَا الشَّجَرةَ... ) ( [1]) ، ( ...فَأَكَلا مِنْها... ) ( [2])   و ( ...عصى آدَمُ ربَّهُ... ) ، ( [3])وهذا أقوى ما تمسّك به المخالفون لعصمة الأنبياء. ويمكن توضيح نظريتهم بالشكل التالي: إنّ آدم (عليه السلام) قد خالف النهي الموجه إليه في قوله تعالى: ( ...وَلا تَقْرَبا هذِهِ الشَّجَرَة... ) ( [4])   ، ولا ريب أنّ مخالفة النهي المؤكد موجبة للذنب، ولا يمكن أن ينسجم ارتكاب الذنب مع القول بالعصمة. إنّ الإجابة عن هذا الإشكال تتّضح من خلال دراسة نوع النهي الإلهي، لأنّ نهيه سبحانه كأمره ينقسم إلى نوعين هما:
 
 
 
 
1. الأمر والنهي الصادران من موقع المولوية والسلطة، انّ الآمر تارة ينطلق من موضع مولويته وسلطته في إصدار أوامره ونواهيه، وفي تلك الحالة تكون الأوامر والنواهي مولوية، وحينئذ فإذا كانت تلك النواهي بصورة مؤكدة يطلق على ذلك النهي المولوي التحريمي، وإن لم تكن مؤكدة فيطلق عليها اسم النواهي المولوية التنزيهية(الكراهة).
والقسم الأعظم من الأوامر والنواهي الإلهية تقع تحت هذه المقولة، وانّ مخالفة النهي المولوي التحريمي تستوجب العقاب الإلهي، ولكنّ مخالفة النهي المولوي التنزيهي لا تستوجب العقاب الإلهي ولكنّها تكون سبباً لتكدّر الروح والنفس الإنسانية.
 
2. الأمر والنهي من موقع النصح والإرشاد، فالآمر هنا يأمر وينهى انطلاقاً من موضع النصح والهداية والعظة والتذكير باللوازم الطبيعية للعمل المنهي عنه، أي يتّخذ لنفسه موقف الناصح المشفق لا الآمر المتسلّط، ففي مثل هذه الحالة تكتسب الأوامر والنواهي صفة الإرشادية، ولا تكون نتيجتها إلاّ تلك اللوازم الطبيعية للفعل ولا تستتبع أيّ عقاب أو جزاء.
 
 
 
إذا عرفنا ذلك فلندرس النهي الموجه إلى آدم (عليه السلام)  في قوله تعالى: ( وَلا تَقْرَبا ) فهل هو من النواهي المولوية أو الإرشادية؟ فإذا كان النهي مولوياً فلا شكّ أنّ مخالفة آدم (عليه السلام) تكون على خلاف العصمة وتكون موجبة لارتكاب الذنب، وأمّا إذا كان النهي من قبيل النهي الإرشادي فحينئذ لا تكون نتيجة المخالفة إلاّ حصول اللازم الطبيعي للعمل ولا يكون لها أثر آخر يوجب ارتكاب الذنب ومخالفة العصمة.
ونحن إذا راجعنا الآيات  المتعلّقة بالنهي عن الأكل من الشجرة المذكورة نجد هناك قرائن تدلّ وبوضوح على أنّ الخطاب ينطلق من موقع النصيحة والإرشاد لا من موقع المولوية والسلطة، وهذه القرائن هي:
1. ما ورد في سورة طه من قوله تعالى:
 
 
...ياآدَمُ إِنَّ هذا عَدُوٌّ لَكَ وَ لِزَوجِكَ فَلا يُخْرجَنَّكُما مِنَ الجَنَّةِ فَتَشْقى * إِنَّ لَكَ ألاّ تَجُوعَ فِيها وَلاتَعْرى * وَ أَنَّكَ لا تَظْمَؤُاْ فِيها وَ لا تَضْحى ) .( [5])
 
 
 
فهذه الآيات تكشف النقاب عن نوعية هذا النهي، وتصرّح بأنّ النهي كان نهياً إرشادياً، لصيانة آدم (عليه السلام)  عمّا يترتب عليه من الآثار المكروهة والعواقب غير المحمودة، ونحن إذا لاحظنا هذه الآيات ـ الآيات الثلاثة ـ نجدها تحلُّ محل جملة  ( ...وَلاتَقْرَبا هذِهِ الشَّجَرةَ فَتَكُونا مِنَ الظّالِمينَ )( [6]) الواردة في سورتي البقرة والأعراف.
 
وبالالتفات إلى وحدةarrow-10x10.png  الهدف في الآيتين يتّضح أنّ المقصود من الظلم العمل الذي في غير محله ووضع الشيء في غير موضعه لا بمعنى مخالفة القانون وتخطّي الأوامر وتعدّي الحدود، إذاً مفاد الآية الورادة في سورة البقرة يتّضح من خلال الآيات الثلاثة الواردة في سورة طه حيث إنّها تحكي لنا وبوضوح أنّ لحن الخطاب الإلهي فيها هو لحن الناصح المشفق لا النهي المولوي، وهل يوجد لحنٌ أكثر شفقة من قوله:
الف: ( إنَّ هذا عَدُوٌّ لَكَ وَ لِزَوجِكَ ) . ب: ( فَلا يُخْرِجَنَّكُما مِنَ الْجَنَّةِ ) .
ج: ( فَتَشْقى ) .
 
 
فهذه الجملة تحكي لنا انّ عاقبة ونتيجة مخالفة هذا النهي هي الخروج من الجنة والانتقال إلى دار الدنيا التي هي دار عناء وشقاء ومحنة وبلاء، وقد تتّضح القضية بصورة أجلى إذا ما قارنّا بين نعيم الجنة والمشاق والمتاعب الموجودة في دار الدنيا كالجوع والعطش والعرى وغير ذلك.
وعلى هذا الأساس وبالالتفات إلى تلك الجمل لابدّ من القول: إنّ المقصود في قوله تعالى:
ولا تَقْرَبا هذِهِ الشَّجَرَةَ ) هو النصح والشفقة، وانّ المقصود من الظلم في قوله: ( ظالمين ) هو ارتكاب الفعل الذي لا تكون نتيجته إلاّ المشقة والعناء.
 
 
 
2. القرينة الثانية التي تدلّ على كون الأمر الموجه إلى آدم (عليه السلام)  إرشاداً ونصيحة لانهياً مولوياً هي قول الشيطان نفسه الذي ينقله اللّه سبحانه:
وَقاسَمَهُما إنِّي لَكُما لَمِنَ النّاصِحينَ ) ( [7]) .وهذا يكشف عن أنّ خطابه سبحانه إليهما كان بصورة النصح، وكأنّ الشيطان قد اقتبس هذه النصيحة من كلامه سبحانه ثمّ أطّر وزيّن خديعته بتلك الصورة من النصح والشفقة.
3. حينما أكل آدم وحواء من تلك الشجرة وبدت لهما سؤاتهما وطفقا يخصفان عليهما من ورق الجنة، في هذه الحالة العصيبة والموقف الحرج ناداهما اللّه سبحانه بقوله: ( أَلَمْ أنْهَكُما عَنْ تِلْكُمَا الشَّجَرَةِ وَ أَقُلْ لَكُما إِنَّ الشَّيْطَانَ لَكُما عَدُوٌّ مُبينٌ ) .( [8])
وهذا الخطاب يكشف انّ النهي الذي كان موجهاً إليهما ينطوي على تلك العاقبة  التي ينبغي لهما التحرز منها وعدم الوقوع فيها، ولكنّهما حينما ارتكبا الفعل وظهرت لهما نتيجة ذلك العمل جاء النداء الناصح والمشفق من قبله سبحانه مذكراً لهما بالنصيحة التي قد أولاهما إيّاها، فقال سبحانه: ( أَلَمْ أَنَهَكُما عَنْ تِلْكُما الشَّجرة وأقل... ) .
4.  إنّ القرآن الكريم حينما يذكر لنا مصير آدم وحواء وخروجهما من الجنة يصف ذلك بقوله:
فَأَزَلَّهُمَا الشَّيْطانُ عَنْهَا فَأَخْْرَجَهُما مِمّا كانا فِيهِ... ) . ( [9])
 
من مجموع هذه القرائن وغيرها الموجودة في الآيات الواردة حول قصة آدم (عليه السلام) يتّضح جليّاً انّ النهي في هذا المقام كان نهياً إرشادياً لا مولوياً، وكان الهدف إبقاء آدم (عليه السلام) بعيداً عن عوامل الشقاء والتعب. أمّا محاولة اعتبار ذلك النهي، نهياً مولوياً تنزيهياً(كراهتي) فلا تنسجم مع التأكيدات الواردة في الآية.
كما أنّ هناك محاولة أُخرى لإثبات انّ هذه المخالفة لا يمكن أن تُعدَّ معصية، وذلك بالتوجيه التالي: انّ جزاء المخالفة للنهي المولوي التكليفي يتبدّل بالتوبة إذا قُبِلت، ولم يتبدّل في موردهما فأنّهما  تابا و قُبلت توبتهما ولم يرجعا إلى ما كانا  فيه من الجنة، ولولا انّ التكليف إرشادي لاستلزم قبول التوبة رجوعهما إلى ما كانا فيه من مقام القرب.( [10]) ويرد على هذه النظرية انّ التوبة ترفع المؤاخذة فقط، ولا أثر لها في رفع الأثر الوضعي للفعل، وممّا لا ريب فيه انّ الخروج من الجنة كان أثراً وضعياً للفعل لا المؤاخذة الإلهية حتّى يرتفع بالتوبة.
العصمة وزلّة آدم (عليه السلام)
لقد ورد في سورة البقرة بيان كيفية عمل آدم وحواء بقوله تعالى: ( فَأَزَلَّهُمَا الشَّيْطانُ ) وحينئذ يمكن أن يطرح التساؤل التالي: كيف يمكن أن تنسجم العصمة مع الزلّة؟
ويمكن الإجابة عن هذا التساؤل بأنّه لا يمكن حصر الزلل بمخالفة النهي المولوي فقط، بل مخالفة النصح والإرشاد يقع في إطار الزلل أيضاً، فكما يزلّ مخالف النهي المولوي كذلك يزلُّ مخالف النهي الإرشادي.
 
 
 
 
العصمة وقول آدم (عليه السلام) ربّنا ظلمنا أَنفسنا )( [11])
إنّ هذه الجملة التي صدرت من آدم وحواء لمّا ندما على فعلهما كانت من الجمل التي تمسّك بها المخالفون للقول بعصمة الأنبياء حيث قالوا: كيف يكون معصوماً والحال أنّه يعترف باقتراف الظلم وأنّه ظالم لنفسه؟
والجواب عن هذه الشبهة هو: انّ مصطلح «الظلم» في اللغة العربية ليس إلاّ بمعنى تجاوز الحدّ ووضع الشيء في غير موضعه.( [12])
 
 
ولا ريب انّ العمل الذي صدر من آدم (عليه السلام)  ـ وبأي تفسير فسّرناه ـ يُعدُّ تجاوزاً عن الحدّ ووضعاً للشيء في غير موضعه، ولكنّ هذا لا يمكن أن يُعدَّ انتهاكاً وتجاوزاً للقانون الإلهي وانّ آدم (عليه السلام) قد دخل وبسبب فعله هذا في زمرة المذنبين والعاصين، من ذلك البيان يمكن التوصل إلى المراد من جملة ( فَتَكُونا مِنَ الظالِمينَ ) الواردة في سورة البقرة  الآية 35.
 
نعم انّ الظلم في الاصطلاح المعاصر يطلق على من تجاوز وانتهك القانون الإلهي وتعدّى الحدود الإلهية أو سحق حقوق الآخرين. وانّ الآيات التي وردت في ذم الظلم والظالمين ناظرة إلى هذا النوع خاصة، وإن كان الظلم في لغة العرب لا ينحصر في هذا النوع، فقد ورد في مدح عديّ بن حاتم الطائي المعروف بكرمه وسخائه الشعر التالي:
بأبه اقتدى عديّ في الكرم  *** ومن يشابه أبه فما ظلم
والمقصود من هذا البيت انّ خلق عديّ كان خلقاً كاملاً ومطلوباً وكان من قبيل وضع الشيء في محله.
ثمّ إنّ  هذا الأمر يتّضح جليّاً إذا علمنا انّ مسألة الظلم الواردة في قصة آدم قد أضيف فيها الظلم إلى نفسه (عليه السلام) ، ومن المعلوم أنّ ظلم النفس في القرآن الكريم ورد مقابلاً لعمل السوء قال سبحانه: ( وَ مَنْ يَعْمَلْ سُوءاً أَوْ يَظْلِمْ نَفْسَهُ ثُمَّ يَسْتَغْفِرِ اللّهَ يَجِدِ اللّهَ غَفُوراً رَحيماً ) . ( [13])
 
 
العصمة وقوله «عصى» و «غوى» و «تاب»
ربّما يتمسّك بعض المنخدعين بالمعنى المتبادر اليوم من هذه الألفاظ ويتصوّر أنّ آدم (عليه السلام) قد ارتكب ما يخالف العصمة. والحال انّ هذه الألفاظ جميعهاـ وبالالتفات إلى معناها اللغوي وأصلها لا المعنى المتبادر منها اليوم ـ لا تدلّ على المعصية أبداً، وذلك بالبيان التالي:
 
 
 
1. أمّا لفظة «عصى» فأنّ معنى العصيان في لغة العرب هو خلاف الطاعة، قال ابن منظور: العصيان خلاف الطاعة، العاصي الفصيل إذا لم يتبع أُمّه.( [14])
 
 
وهذا يدلّ على أنّه ليس كلّ مخالفة تُعدُّ في الاصطلاح ذنباً، لأنّ الإنسان الذي لا يسمع كلام الناصح المشفق يقال في حقّه أنّه خالف كلامه، ولكن لا تُعدّ تلك المخالفة ذنباً في المصطلح.
2. وأمّا لفظة «غوى» فالجواب عنها انّ الغيّ يستعمل في لغة العرب بمعنى الخيبة، قال الشاعر:
فمن يلق خيراً يحمد الناس أمره *** و من يغو لا يعدم على الغي لائماً
 
أي ومن حُرم من الخير ولم يلقه، لا يحمده الناس ويلومونه. ونحن إذا فسّرنا الغي بأيّ معنى من هذه المعاني فلا يستلزم ذلك الذنب والمعصية الشرعية، فلنفرض انّ «غوى» مأخوذة من «غيّ» بمعنى الضلالة مقابل «الرشد» كما ورد في قوله تعالى: ( ...قَدْ تَبَيّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الغَيِّ... ) ( [15]) .
 
 
لكن ليس كلّ ضلال معصية، فإنّ من ضلّ في طريق الكسب أو في طريق التعلّم أو تشكيل الأُسرة ولم يلتفت إلى كلام ناصحيه يصدق عليه أنّه غوى: أي ظلّ، لأنّه لم يصل إلى النتيجة المطلوبة والمتوخّاة من عمله، ولكنّ ذلك لا يلازم المعصية. ثمّ إنّ كلّ من يطالع قصة آدم (عليه السلام)  مطالعة دقيقة ويمعن النظر فيها ويرى العنوان الذي من أجله خُلق آدم وهو عنوان «الخليفة في الأرض»، وكيف علّمه اللّه سبحانه وتعالى الأسماء واعتبره معلِّماً للملائكة في هذا الخصوص، وكيف أمر اللّه سبحانه الملائكة بالسجود له، وطرده سبحانه للشيطان بسبب عصيانه لهذا التكريم، ثمّ كيف أسكنه اللّه سبحانه في محيط تتوفر فيه كلّ النعم الإلهية وهو الجنة وتحذيره من كيد الشيطان ومصائده وانّه عدوٌّ له ولذريته، فلا يشك حينئذ بأنّه (عليه السلام) قد خسر الكثير من خلال خديعة الشيطان له ولزوجته.
3. ثمّ إنّ توبة آدم  (عليه السلام)  وقعت هي الأُخرى وسيلة بيد المخالفين للعصمة، لأنّهم يرون أنّ التوبة نتيجة ارتكاب الذنب، وارتكاب الذنب لا ينسجم مع القول بالعصمة، والحال أنّ التوبة أعمّ من صدور الذنب، فقد يرتكب الإنسان عملاً لا يليق بشأنه ولا ينسجم مع مقامه ثمّ يندم على ذلك ويتوب منه، ولا ريب أنّ مقام ومنصب آدم (عليه السلام)  يستوجب ـ مع كلّ هذه المقدّمات ـ أن لا ينسى العهد الإلهي، ولكنّه فعلاً قد ارتكب عملاً لا يليق بشأنه ـ وإن لم يكن ذلك العمل في ذاته حراماً ـ فمن اللائق به الندم والتوبة من ذلك، وقد ورد في الحديث:
«إنَّ رَسُولَ اللّهِ  (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) كَانَ يَتُوبُ إِلَى اللّهِ عزَّ وجَلَّ كُلَّ يَوْم  مِنْ غَيْرِ ذَنْب»( [16])
 
 
العصمة وطلب المغفرة
من الأُمور التي تمسّك بها المخالفون للعصمة في قصة آدم (عليه السلام)  ما ورد في القرآن الكريم من قوله تعالى: ( ...وَ إِنْ لَمْ تَغْفِرْ لَنا وَ تَرْحَمْنا لنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْخاسِرينَ ) .( [17 ])
 
 
لا ريب أنّنا  إذا نظرنا إلى عظمة المقام الإلهي ونظرنا إلى العمل الصادر من الأولياء نجد أنّ مثل هذه التعابير طبيعية جداً ولكنّها في نفس الوقت من المستحيل أن تكون دليلاً على ارتكاب الذنب والمعصية، انّ الأولياء والصالحين العظام حينما يصدر منهم ترك الأولى نجدهم يستعظمون ذلك ويلجأون إلى اللّه بالتضرع والدعاء وكأنّهم قد ارتكبوا ذنباً كبيراً.
 
 

نعم انّ ترك الأولى من الإنسان العارف ـ بالنسبة إلى معرفته ـ يُعدُّ ذنباً عرفانياً وإن لم يكن ذنباً شرعياً. ومن هذا المنطلق فاللائق بشأن آدم (عليه السلام)  في مقابل كلّ هذا اللطف العظيم أن يظهر الندم والتوبة ويطلب المغفرة من اللّه سبحانه وتعالى والتصميم على أن لا يصغي لكلام غير اللّه سبحانه.( [18])

[1] . الأعراف: 22. 
[2] . طه: 121. 
[3] . طه: 121. 
[4] . الأعراف: 19. 
[5] . طه:117ـ 119. 
[6] . البقرة:35 ; الأعراف: 19. 
[7] . الأعراف: 21. 
[8] . الأعراف: 22. 
[9] . البقرة: 36. 
[10] . الميزان:1/131، مؤسسة إسماعيليان. 
[11] . الأعراف: 23. 
[12] . لسان العرب، مادة « ظلم » . 
[13] . النساء: 110. 
[14] . لسان العرب:10/ 167. 
[15] . البقرة: 256. 
[16] . سفينة البحار:6/661ـ 662، الطبعة الجديدة. 
[17] . الأعراف: 23. 
[18] . منشور جاويد:11/85ـ 92.

 

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I saw this on Hamza Yusuf's facebook page:

 

Tabarāni narrates on the authority of Ali, May Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophetﷺ said:

 

أدبوا أولادكم على ثلاث خصال حب نبيكم وحب أهل بيته وعلى قراءة القرآن فان حملة القرآن في ظل الله يوم لا ظل إلا ظله مع أنبيائه وأصفيائه

 

‘Teach your children three qualities: Love of your Prophet; Love of his family and the recitation of the Quran. Verily the learned of the Quran will be with the Prophets and the pious in the shade of Allah’s mercy on The Day when there will be no shade but His.’

 

Is this an acceptable translation? :rolleyes:

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