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Did The Prophet (S) Appoint A Successor?

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But why wgat made him "sense" he was tried

 

 

I would not know, since the verse does not Explain how he thought so, but there we know it was after:

(1) The Disappearance of the Two men (angels), he then sensed something in his Judgement.

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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I would not know, since the verse does not Explain how he thought so, but there we know it was after:

(1) The Disappearance of the Two men (angels), he then sensed something in his Judgement.

Use your sense and logic. You seem to know through your "sense" and "logic" that ulil amr means imam so use your " sense" and " logic" here too.

Il ask you again.

What made him "sense" he had been tried

Something made him sense it. What was it

Edited by Just the truth

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Use your sense and logic. You seem to know through your "sense" and "logic" that ulil amr means imam so use your " sense" and " logic" here too.

Il ask you again.

What made him "sense" he had been tried

Something made him sense it. What was it

 

 

(1) Yes of course, we have proven it, and The narrations where not refuted since.

 

(2) If your Trying to say that his Fault in Judging is the reason he repented and sensed, you are right, but He did not See anything wrong in it, that is why he 'Simply thought' and in assuring him self, and asked protection from Allah. In this he was taught a lesson brother.

 

(3) I will like to add you initially failed to prove your point against Infallibility, You started this topic to raise a point against infallibility, and here we see that there is no sin being committed. Later on you change the subject, that you where talking about 'Simple' Mistakes. Since you claim we believe they do not commit mistakes. In Reality we have shown clearly the infallibility of prophet Dawud (a.s).

 

 

(4) If your saying that he made a mistake, Please answer me this, In a real life situation When the social Justice Order (such as Police, Court, Criminal Investigation) When they get hold of Hard evidence against the wanted subject, they usually go to him and arrest him straight away, since they have clear evidence. Do you Consider this wrong?

 

(5)  Prophet Dawud (a.s) Knew Who did it, as a prophet he knew who was right and wrong. But In Allah Introduced to him that concept of even when knowing between the Innocent and the guilty, it is a better way to see both views. As a higher virtue, and a benefit for Bani Israel.

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 

Not authentic. 

 

There are authentic versions of this Hadith, from Jami' Al-Tirmidhi:

 

حدثنا قتيبة حدثنا جعفر بن سليمان الضبعي عن يزيد الرشك عن مطرف بن عبد الله عن عمران بن حصين قال بعث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم جيشا واستعمل عليهم علي بن أبي طالب فمضى في السرية فأصاب جارية فأنكروا عليه وتعاقد أربعة من أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقالوا إذا لقينا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أخبرناه بما صنع علي وكان المسلمون إذا رجعوا من السفر بدءوا برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فسلموا عليه ثم انصرفوا إلى رحالهم فلما قدمت السرية سلموا على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقام أحد الأربعة فقال يا رسول الله ألم تر إلى علي بن أبي طالب صنع كذا وكذا فأعرض عنه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ثم قام الثاني فقال مثل مقالته فأعرض عنه ثم قام الثالث فقال مثل مقالته فأعرض عنه ثم قام الرابع فقال مثل ما قالوا فأقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم والغضب يعرف في وجهه فقال ما تريدون من علي ما تريدون من علي ما تريدون من علي إن عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي

 

Sunnah.org translation: Imran bin Husain narrated that the Messenger of Allah dispatched an army and he put Ali bin Abi Talib in charge of it. He left on the expedition and he entered upon a female slave. So four of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah scolded him, and they made a pact saying: “[if] we meet the Messenger of Allah we will inform him of what Ali did.” When the Muslims returned from the journey, they would begin with the Messenger of Allah and give him Salam, then they would go to their homes. So when the expedition arrived, they gave Salam to the Prophet, and one of the four stood saying: “O Messenger of Allah! Do you see that Ali bin Abi Talib did such and such.” The Messenger of Allah turned away from him. Then the second one stood and said as he said, and he turned away from him. Then the third stood before him, and said as he said, and he turned away from him. Then the fourth stood and said as they had said. The Messenger of Allah faced him, and the anger was visible on his face, he said: “What do you want from Ali?! What do you want from Ali?! What do you want from Ali?! Indeed Ali is from me, and I am from him, and he is the ally of every believer after me.”

 

Tirmidhi: Hasan Gharib

Albani: Sahih 

 

Jami Al-Tirmidhi page 745 hadith 3712

 

Pictures I took from my copy of it: Cover Page

 

This is also narrated by ibn Hibban in his Sahih by the same Sanad except it breaks off at Ja'far ibn Sulayman and it is narrated then by Al-Husayn ibn 'Umar ibn Saqiq to Abu Ya'la:

 

(حديث مرفوع) أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو يَعْلَى ، حَدَّثَنَا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عُمَرَ بْنِ شَقِيقٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا جَعْفَرُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ ، عَنْ يَزِيدَ الرِّشْكِ ، عَنْ مُطَرِّفِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الشِّخِّيرِ ، عَنْ عِمْرَانَ بْنِ حُصَيْنٍ ، قَالَ : بَعَثَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ سَرِيَّةً وَاسْتَعْمَلَ عَلَيْهِمْ عَلِيًّا ، قَالَ : فَمَضَى عَلِيٌّ فِي السَّرِيَّةِ ، فَأَصَابَ جَارِيَةً ، فَأَنْكَرَ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِ أَصْحَابُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَالُوا : إِِذَا لَقِينَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَخْبَرْنَاهُ بِمَا صَنَعَ عَلِيٌّ ، قَالَ عِمْرَانُ : وَكَانَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ إِِذَا قَدِمُوا مِنْ سَفَرٍ بَدَءُوا بِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَسَلَّمُوا عَلَيْهِ وَنَظَرُوا إِِلَيْهِ ، ثُمَّ يَنْصَرِفُونَ إِِلَى رِحَالِهِمْ ، فَلَمَّا قَدِمَتِ السَّرِيَّةُ سَلَّمُوا عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَامَ أَحَدُ الأَرْبَعَةِ ، فَقَالَ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ عَلِيًّا صَنَعَ كَذَا وَكَذَا ، فَأَعْرَضَ عَنْهُ ، ثُمَّ قَامَ آخَرُ ، فَقَالَ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ عَلِيًّا صَنَعَ كَذَا وَكَذَا ، فَأَعْرَضَ عَنْهُ ، ثُمَّ قَامَ آخَرُ ، فَقَالَ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ عَلِيًّا صَنَعَ كَذَا وَكَذَا ، فَأَقْبَلَ إِِلَيْهِ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَالْغَضَبُ يُعْرَفُ فِي وَجْهِهِ ، فقَالَ : مَا تُرِيدُونَ مِنْ عَلِيٍّ ثَلاثًا " إِِنَّ عَلِيًّا مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُ ، وَهُوَ وَلِيُّ كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ بَعْدِي " .
 
Shu'ayb Al-Arna'ut: Qawi
 
والسلام

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Well-done. May Allah Reward you For your Efforts, let me Also Add This Hadith is mentioned in the book of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his book 'Fatha'el al Sahaba' volume 2, page 605 Hadith 1035#:

 حدثنا عبد الله قال حدثني أبي نا عبد الرزاق وعفان المعني وهذا حديث عبد الرزاق قالا نا جعفر بن سليمان قال حدثني يزيد الرشك عن مطرف بن عبد الله عن عمران بن حصين قال ثم بعث رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم سرية وأمر عليهم علي بن أبي طالب فأحدث شيئا في سفره فتعاهد قال عفان فتعاقد أربعة من أصحاب محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم ان يذكروا أمره لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال عمران وكنا إذا قدمنا من سفر بدأنا برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فسلمنا عليه قال فدخلوا عليه فقام رجل منهم فقال يا رسول الله إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا فاعرض عنه ثم قام الثاني فقال يا رسول الله إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا فاعرض عنه ثم قام الثالث فقال يا رسول الله إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا فأعرض عنه ثم قام الرابع فقال يا رسول الله إن عليا فعل كذا وكذا قال فأقبل رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على الرابع وقد تغير وجهه فقال دعوا عليا دعوا عليا إن عليا مني وأنا منه وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي

 

 

 

 

post-83202-0-72175400-1382239853_thumb.jpost-83202-0-11454500-1382239852_thumb.j

و السلام عليكم

 

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(1) Yes of course, we have proven it, and The narrations where not refuted since.

(2) If your Trying to say that his Fault in Judging is the reason he repented and sensed, you are right, but He did not See anything wrong in it, that is why he 'Simply thought' and in assuring him self, and asked protection from Allah. In this he was taught a lesson brother.

(3) I will like to add you initially failed to prove your point against Infallibility, You started this topic to raise a point against infallibility, and here we see that there is no sin being committed. Later on you change the subject, that you where talking about 'Simple' Mistakes. Since you claim we believe they do not commit mistakes. In Reality we have shown clearly the infallibility of prophet Dawud (a.s).

(4) If your saying that he made a mistake, Please answer me this, In a real life situation When the social Justice Order (such as Police, Court, Criminal Investigation) When they get hold of Hard evidence against the wanted subject, they usually go to him and arrest him straight away, since they have clear evidence. Do you Consider this wrong?

(5) Prophet Dawud (a.s) Knew Who did it, as a prophet he knew who was right and wrong. But In Allah Introduced to him that concept of even when knowing between the Innocent and the guilty, it is a better way to see both views. As a higher virtue, and a benefit for Bani Israel.

1. "Narrations were not refuted since". Wow!!! You sure know how to claim victory without deserving it.

2. "He did not See anything wrong in it, that is why he 'Simply thought' and in assuring him self, and asked protection from Allah. In this he was taught a lesson brother."

Hold up. So he "simply thought", I asked you what triggered this "thought" and you have not answered. Obviously something made him sense it, what was it.

So he asked for "protection" and not "forgiveness". Please be more clear about this.

3. First go and find out what infallible means. Secondly it is part of shia belief that prophets cannot commit mistakes. Third, I never once said "sin" but have been saying "mistakes" all the way through

YOU SAID

"Since you claim we believe they do not commit mistakes.

MY ANSWER

It's not a "claim" from me brother it's the belief of your aqidah.

YOU SAID

In Reality we have shown clearly the infallibility of prophet Dawud (a.s)."

MY ANSWER

Go and find out the meaning of infallibility brother

4. Explain point 4 properly. I don't really understand what you mean

5. Nobody is claiming the "decision" made between the angels by dawud a.s was wrong.

Brother il ask you my question again.

If dawud a.s never knew for certain before this event that listening to both sides of a story was mandatory, then in his mind there's nothing wrong with what he did, so I'm asking you what triggered this "thought" that he had done something wrong.

6. I will answer ulil amr thread today. Please do not expand on point 1 as we will discuss that on ulil amr thread.

Edited by Just the truth

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Statement:

"Narrations were not refuted since". Wow!!! You sure know how to claim victory without deserving it. 

 

(1) Yes brother you have refuted non.
(2) The ones where you did try to refute, I refuted in addition exposing some of the false References and Translations you put up.
(3) the Audience will but the judge of that thank you.
   

 

Statement:
 Hold up. So he "simply thought", I asked you what triggered this "thought" and you have not answered. Obviously something made him sense it, what was it. So he asked for "protection" and not "forgiveness". Please be more clear about this.

 

Clearly I said:
 

 

 

 If your Trying to say that his Fault in Judging is the reason he repented and sensed, you are right, but He did not See anything wrong in it, that is why he 'Simply thought' and in assuring him self, and asked protection from Allah. In this he was taught a lesson brother.

 

And:

 

 

 

I would not know, since the verse does not Explain how he thought so, but there we know it was after:

(1) The Disappearance of the Two men (angels), he then sensed something in his Judgement.

 

 

if your Failing to understand my Answer, Why not tell us you assumption? And I will Gladly Justify it.


 

Statement:

First go and find out what infallible means. Secondly it is part of shia belief that prophets cannot commit mistakes. Third, I never once said "sin" but have been saying "mistakes" all the way through 

If dawud a.s never knew for certain before this event that listening to both sides of a story was mandatory, then in his mind there's nothing wrong with what he did, so I'm asking you what triggered this "thought" that he had done something wrong.

 

Prophets (a.s) can not commit Sin. And your Initial intention of This is to prove to us that they do 'Commit' Sins'. Even in your initial point you said" prophets are not Infallible, they commit sin'. And please stop Manipulating your stance, There is a difference between Sin and mistake. And our Definition of Inability is One Who cannot commit sin entirely. You have failed To justify you point of you, thus your not giving any proper sentence/ or evidence. Prophet Dawud (a.s) Knows the unseen and is able to identity the innocent from the Criminal. Id we where at the time of the prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and if he made a judgement between people, would you question our dear prophet? If your a Muslim you would already acknowledge that has made the right judgement. Same with The Nation of Israel, they would already know without questioning the prophet (a.s), but here Allah shows prophet Dawud (a.s) that even when knowing, you are required to here the other side, if not not knowing you would be forced to hear both sides, but since he is a prophet he already knew.  

 

 

Statement:
It's not a "claim" from me brother it's the belief of your aqidah.

 

(1) learn your Own Aqida and learn ours, you will get much further in life.
(2) In the definition of infallibility we mean one who cannot commit sin.
(3) On the account of mistake, that would be separate.
(4) don't tell me what I believe, I know my own Religion thanks. 
(5) Go talk to One of our Imams or Scholars and ask them.
(6) Don't force your false beliefs on others.

 

 

Statement:

Explain point 4 properly. I don't really understand what you mean 

 

Really? Its not proper English its very clear:

 

 

 

(4) If your saying that he made a mistake, Please answer me this, In a real life situation When the social Justice Order (such as Police, Court, Criminal Investigation) When they get hold of Hard evidence against the wanted subject, they usually go to him and arrest him straight away, since they have clear evidence. Do you Consider this wrong?

 

     

 


Statement:

 I will answer ulil amr thread today. Please do not expand on point 1 as we will discuss that on ulil amr thread. 

 

Can you please state, where I mentioned anything outside of this issue? You are the one who is posting outside the argument without my Acknowledgement.  

 

 

 

 

 


JustheTruth we read in Sahih Bukhari:

 

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860 :

Narrated by Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani

 

 

A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

 

 

 

Just the truth did the prophet peace be upon him make a mistake in his judgement? he did not hear the opinion of the Son of the man, So did the prophet make a mistake?

Didn't prophet Dawud (a.s) Judge according to the Law of Allah? If not, then How can he be a prophet?

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory

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Statement:

"Narrations were not refuted since". Wow!!! You sure know how to claim victory without deserving it.

(1) Yes brother you have refuted non.

(2) The ones where you did try to refute, I refuted in addition exposing some of the false References and Translations you put up.

(3) the Audience will but the judge of that thank you.

Statement:

Hold up. So he "simply thought", I asked you what triggered this "thought" and you have not answered. Obviously something made him sense it, what was it. So he asked for "protection" and not "forgiveness". Please be more clear about this.

Clearly I said:

And:

if your Failing to understand my Answer, Why not tell us you assumption? And I will Gladly Justify it.

Statement:

First go and find out what infallible means. Secondly it is part of shia belief that prophets cannot commit mistakes. Third, I never once said "sin" but have been saying "mistakes" all the way through

If dawud a.s never knew for certain before this event that listening to both sides of a story was mandatory, then in his mind there's nothing wrong with what he did, so I'm asking you what triggered this "thought" that he had done something wrong.

Prophets (a.s) can not commit Sin. And your Initial intention of This is to prove to us that they do 'Commit' Sins'. Even in your initial point you said" prophets are not Infallible, they commit sin'. And please stop Manipulating your stance, There is a difference between Sin and mistake. And our Definition of Inability is One Who cannot commit sin entirely. You have failed To justify you point of you, thus your not giving any proper sentence/ or evidence. Prophet Dawud (a.s) Knows the unseen and is able to identity the innocent from the Criminal. Id we where at the time of the prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and if he made a judgement between people, would you question our dear prophet? If your a Muslim you would already acknowledge that has made the right judgement. Same with The Nation of Israel, they would already know without questioning the prophet (a.s), but here Allah shows prophet Dawud (a.s) that even when knowing, you are required to here the other side, if not not knowing you would be forced to hear both sides, but since he is a prophet he already knew.

Statement:

It's not a "claim" from me brother it's the belief of your aqidah.

(1) learn your Own Aqida and learn ours, you will get much further in life.

(2) In the definition of infallibility we mean one who cannot commit sin.

(3) On the account of mistake, that would be separate.

(4) don't tell me what I believe, I know my own Religion thanks.

(5) Go talk to One of our Imams or Scholars and ask them.

(6) Don't force your false beliefs on others.

Statement:

Explain point 4 properly. I don't really understand what you mean

Really? Its not proper English its very clear:

Statement:

I will answer ulil amr thread today. Please do not expand on point 1 as we will discuss that on ulil amr thread.

Can you please state, where I mentioned anything outside of this issue? You are the one who is posting outside the argument without my Acknowledgement.

JustheTruth we read in Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860 :

Narrated by Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani

A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

Just the truth did the prophet peace be upon him make a mistake in his judgement? he did not hear the opinion of the Son of the man, So did the prophet make a mistake?

Didn't prophet Dawud (a.s) Judge according to the Law of Allah? If not, then How can he be a prophet?

1. This discussion will continue on ulil amr thread.

2. So he a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness. Let's read verse 25:

“So We forgave him that, and verily for him, with

Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

So he a.s asked for protection so Allah (swt) forgave him that. Mashallah to your sense.

What did Allah ( swt) exactly forgive him, if he had made no mistake??

YOU SAID

if your Failing to understand my Answer, Why not tell us you assumption? And I will Gladly Justify it.

MY ANSWER

What answer???im asking you one simple question and you can't even answered that.

If dawud a.s never knew that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides of a story, then what made him sense he a.s did something wrong?? Simple question really.

YOU SAID

Prophets (a.s) can not commit Sin. And your Initial intention of This is to prove to us that they do 'Commit' Sins'.

MY ANSWER

err.... Excuse me. When did I mention the word "sin"??. Stop lying. Stop trying to tell me my intention. Thank you.

YOU SAID

And please stop Manipulating your stance

MY ANSWER

How am I "manipulating my stance".

YOU SAID

And our Definition of Inability is One Who cannot commit sin entirely.

MY ANSWER

Like I said go and learn your own aqidah before trying to force your views on others. Find out the FULL meaning of infallibility. Thank you.

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=4456

Will you stop talking about the decisions made by prophets a.s as though I'm refuting them. Please. Thank you. We all know dawud a.s made the right decision it here we are talking about the method.

YOU SAID

but here Allah shows prophet Dawud (a.s) that even when knowing, you are required to here the other side,

MY ANSWER

Errrr hello... You're not answering my question!!!! What made dawud a.s sense that he had done something wrong if he never knew before this event that listening to both sides was mandatory.

YOU SAID

(1) learn your Own Aqida and learn ours, you will get much further in life.

(2) In the definition of infallibility we mean one who cannot commit sin.

(3) On the account of mistake, that would be separate.

(4) don't tell me what I believe, I know my own Religion thanks.

(5) Go talk to One of our Imams or Scholars and ask them.

(6) Don't force your false beliefs on others.

MY ANSWER

1. You also

2. Wrong.. Do your research. Please. Thank you.

3. Wrong.

4. Obviously not

5. Will do. You also go and see one of ours.

6. Look who's talking!!!

Bro before you embarrass yourself anymore please go and find out the meaning of infallibility then come back and tell me whether dawud a.s commuted any mistake whatsoever and where does that leave infallibility.

Read the hadith without eyeswide open.

The son is asking prophet (pbuh) to deal with him according to Allah (swt) law. Knowing he was guilty he wanted his due punishment out of fear of Allah (swt). Also he is just like his father asking "His opponent got up and said, "He is right. judge between us according to Allah's Laws." So he wanted his due punishment according to Allah (swt) law and never came to prophet (pbuh) refuting his father.

Also if you read the hadith properly

"The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son".

The father was not there when his son fornicated and I'm pretty sure they never did it in public. So it's pretty obvious the son has admitted to his father his mistake and wants to pay the price.

Why would his father go round asking learned scholars and paying his sons "lieu" if he was not 100 per cent sure. Common sense and a little bit of logic tells us that the son and the father were god fearing men and wanted to be judged according to the book of Allah (swt) regarding illegal sex

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Statement:

This discussion will continue on ulil amr thread.

 

You shouldve kept it their then, instead going around posting unproven Ideologies.

 

Statement:
What did Allah ( swt) exactly forgive him, if he had made no mistake?? 

 

As I stated:

 

 

 

 All prophets know The Unseen and between whats wrong and whats right even at the Situation ob being tested. Here Dawud (a.s) After his Realization he Knew he should have made a Justice in that time, and so he asks Allah for forgiveness for his action, but not that it was false, but due to his late realization of what was the 'Better' option. This is the lesson, Allah Teaches Dawud (a.s) and this is How Allah Taught all of his Prophets (peace be upon them All) by test and Revelation of the truth, but keep in mind its impossible Allah would make them sin during that test, because how would such a man become a prophet and a guide for the people? would I follow a person we has the Ability just as I to commit sin? this is Invalid my dear friend. So Repentance does mean it 'Only' Comes after Sin, it can also come from Regret, Realization, Defeat, not knowing, doing something unwillingly, Forced, Anger, Intention and so on. Therefore Initially no Mistake in the means of a Sin, has being committed. And Sin is when is something against the commandments of Allah, which no prophet would do.

 

 

Statement:
If dawud a.s never knew that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides of a story, then what made him sense he a.s did something wrong?? Simple question really.

 

 

As I said:

 

 

 

 

 If your Trying to say that his Fault in Judging is the reason he repented and sensed, you are right, but He did not See anything wrong in it, that is why he 'Simply thought' and in assuring him self, and asked protection from Allah. In this he was taught a lesson brother.

 

 

 

I would not know, since the verse does not Explain how he thought so, but there we know it was after:

(1) The Disappearance of the Two men (angels), he then sensed something in his Judgement.

 

If you reject this, Kindly give us an Answer, And don't repeat the same Question.

 

 

 

Statement:

err.... Excuse me. When did I mention the word "sin"??. Stop lying. Stop trying to tell me my intention. Thank you.

 

You mentioned as Said you Ignore the fact the Prophets Do not commit sin. I am not dear brother, please try to use a little of Honesty Than you.

 

 

Statement:

How am I "manipulating my stance".

 

Taking Ones Stance on an Issue and bringing Multiple Issues or Beliefs without Reference in order to Manipulate the oppositions statement.  

 

 

Statement:

Like I said go and learn your own aqidah before trying to force your views on others. Find out the FULL meaning of infallibility. Thank you

 

learn our Aqida properly, because in your recent posts on Uli al amr your justifying your false view to ours, and yet ours differs while you force your beliefs "No you believe this", without any source or Reference. Second of All I know what Infallibility means, And when I say they do not commit sin, this mean on terms of disobedience to Allah, and When I mean Mistake, I mean Disobedience in Social terms, and prophet Dawud (a.s) has committed Neither.

    

Statement:

Will you stop talking about the decisions made by prophets a.s as though I'm refuting them. Please. Thank you. We all know dawud a.s made the right decision it here we are talking about the method.

 

Decisions made by the prophets are the Initiatives of the first justice, And you have refuted nothing, where is your logical proof? No doubt Prophet Dawud (a.s) made nor sin, nor mistake in the justice made, but there is always the better option and justice also comes into levels. Use your common sense brother. 

 

 

 

Statement:

Errrr hello... You're not answering my question!!!! What made dawud a.s sense that he had done something wrong if he never knew before this event that listening to both sides was mandatory.

 

 

My answer was clear, Was it not? If not then please can you give us an Answer?

 

 

Prophets (a.s) can not commit Sin. And your Initial intention of This is to prove to us that they do 'Commit' Sins'. Even in your initial point you said" prophets are not Infallible, they commit sin'. And please stop Manipulating your stance, There is a difference between Sin and mistake. And our Definition of Inability is One Who cannot commit sin entirely. You have failed To justify you point of you, thus your not giving any proper sentence/ or evidence. Prophet Dawud (a.s) Knows the unseen and is able to identity the innocent from the Criminal. Id we where at the time of the prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and if he made a judgement between people, would you question our dear prophet? If your a Muslim you would already acknowledge that has made the right judgement. Same with The Nation of Israel, they would already know without questioning the prophet (a.s), but here Allah shows prophet Dawud (a.s) that even when knowing, you are required to here the other side, if not not knowing you would be forced to hear both sides, but since he is a prophet he already knew.  

 

 

 

Statement:

Bro before you embarrass yourself anymore please go and find out the meaning of infallibility then come back and tell me whether dawud a.s commuted any mistake whatsoever and where does that leave infallibility.

 

 

Let us begin answering this question by defining the term infallibility (‘ismah). ’Allamah Tabataba`i defines infallibility as “the presence of a quality in a person that prevents him from committing any impermissible act such as a sin.”

 

 

Al-Fadil al-Miqdad, a ranking Shi’i theologian, presents a more thorough definition, when he says, “Infallibility is a trait bestowed by Allah to a legally accountable individual (mukallaf) in such a way that the presence of this trait negates in this individual any motive to disobey or commit a sin while he remains capable of doing so. This bestowal is a consequence of the person’s acquisition of a moral habit (malakah) of refraining from sin. In addition, this person is aware of the reward earned through obedience and the punishment incurred through disobedience and is apprehensive of forgetfulness and failing to perform the better of two praiseworthy acts.”

 

It is essential to note that infallibility never compels a person to obey nor prevents him from disobeying. Rather, his faith, knowledge, and perception of Allah’s greatness has reached a level where they do not allow him to commit a sin or disobey Allah (awj). According to several ahadith, Allah (awj) strengthens the prophets and Imams through the Pure Spirit, the Spirit of Faith, the Spirit of Strength, the Spirit of Lust, and the Lofty Spirit.

 

Now that we have defined infallibility, we turn to an analysis of the intellectual and textual proofs for the existence of this trait in certain individuals. As a preliminary note, when examining the verses of the Qur`an concerning the infallibility of the prophets, it is important to keep in mind that Divine revelation can never contradict human reason. Therefore, we must read these verses in light of reason, so that no contradictions occur.

 

With respect to the infallibility of the prophets, we will mention only one rational proof. Al-Shaykh al-Tusi, in a very terse statement, says, “Infallibility is necessary for a prophet so that surety in him is attained, and as a result, the purpose of creation is fulfilled.” In other words, a prophet must be infallible so that mankind can trust the revelation that he brings.

 

Some scholars have expressed this proof in the following way: “Once the intellect independently accepts the existence of Allah and the logical possibility of revelation and prophethood (in a general sense, not as pertains to any specific prophet), the intellect then affirms the necessity of the infallibility of the prophets in receiving and conveying divine revelation. The evidence for this is that since Allah has sent his prophets to guide mankind, he must send a person who is neither careless nor forgetful, much less sinful. If not, He will contradict His own purpose in sending prophets, revelation, and in essence, the purpose of creation itself. If the prophets were capable of carelessness, forgetfulness, or sin, people would never fully trust that what they say is from Allah. They would always entertain the possibility that the prophets have lied to them or made a mistake or misunderstood Allah’s intent.”

 

This theological principle is firmly based on the attributes of Allah (awj) himself. In particular it is based on His omniscience (‘ilm), omnipotence (qudrah), the purposefulness of His actions (hikmah) — both in creation and legislation — and in essence, on the fact that He is free from impropriety, injustice, and purposelessness. If a prophet were to make a mistake in receiving or conveying revelation, this mistake would demonstrate either ignorance, weakness, or incompetence in Allah’s (awj) actions.

 

In reality, if the prophet were not infallible, either he would accidentally or intentionally make mistakes in guiding people or, at the very least, his people would not trust him sufficiently, either in terms of his claims to prophethood or in terms of the message and duties that he brings. In the first case, the prophethood would become a cau se for the misguidance of people. In the second case, the prophethood would be utterly without purpose. Far be it from Allah (awj) to either misguide or act without purpose.

 

Until now, we have defined infallibility and presented one intellectual proof for the necessity of this quality in the prophets. 

 

 

Statement:
The son is asking prophet (s) to deal with him according to Allah law. Knowing he was guilty he wanted his due punishment out of fear of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Also he is just like his father asking "His opponent got up and said, "He is right. judge between us according to Allah's Laws." So he wanted his due punishment according to Allah  law and never came to prophet (s) refuting his father. The father was not there when his son fornicated and I'm pretty sure they never did it in public. So it's pretty obvious the son has admitted to his father his mistake and wants to pay the price.

 

 

First of all in the following Narration the point of me pointing it out is that the prophet (p.b.u.h) said that he was acting according to the Law of Allah, (as I highlighted in Read did you no see?), So there a point rises how can prophet Dawud (a.s) commit a mistake by judging according to the Law of Allah? Is the Law of Allah False? No Dear brother, it is defiantly not. Second of All Brother You Mistake the purpose for me pointing out the narration above, in it we find that this was a mere 'case' on the son of the Man for committing the Atrocity mentioned. The prophet Peace be upon him gave a 'Judgement' According to the Law of Allah, Same with prophet Dawud (a.s) he acts according to the Law of Allah, and it is impossible for a prophet to go against the Law of Allah. Do dear brother The Man is asking about his son, and The Opponents Only "Judge between Us according to the Law of Allah" He had full trust in the prophet and did not make a stance against the prophet peace be upon him (according to the Narration) 

 

You fail to Answer me again brother:

Didn't prophet Dawud (a.s) Judge according to the Law of Allah? If not, then How can he be a prophet?

 

 


 

 

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Statement:

This discussion will continue on ulil amr thread.

You shouldve kept it their then, instead going around posting unproven Ideologies.

Statement:

What did Allah ( swt) exactly forgive him, if he had made no mistake??

As I stated:

Statement:

If dawud a.s never knew that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides of a story, then what made him sense he a.s did something wrong?? Simple question really.

As I said:

If you reject this, Kindly give us an Answer, And don't repeat the same Question.

Statement:

err.... Excuse me. When did I mention the word "sin"??. Stop lying. Stop trying to tell me my intention. Thank you.

You mentioned as Said you Ignore the fact the Prophets Do not commit sin. I am not dear brother, please try to use a little of Honesty Than you.

Statement:

How am I "manipulating my stance".

Taking Ones Stance on an Issue and bringing Multiple Issues or Beliefs without Reference in order to Manipulate the oppositions statement.

Statement:

Like I said go and learn your own aqidah before trying to force your views on others. Find out the FULL meaning of infallibility. Thank you

learn our Aqida properly, because in your recent posts on Uli al amr your justifying your false view to ours, and yet ours differs while you force your beliefs "No you believe this", without any source or Reference. Second of All I know what Infallibility means, And when I say they do not commit sin, this mean on terms of disobedience to Allah, and When I mean Mistake, I mean Disobedience in Social terms, and prophet Dawud (a.s) has committed Neither.

Statement:

Will you stop talking about the decisions made by prophets a.s as though I'm refuting them. Please. Thank you. We all know dawud a.s made the right decision it here we are talking about the method.

Decisions made by the prophets are the Initiatives of the first justice, And you have refuted nothing, where is your logical proof? No doubt Prophet Dawud (a.s) made nor sin, nor mistake in the justice made, but there is always the better option and justice also comes into levels. Use your common sense brother.

Statement:

Errrr hello... You're not answering my question!!!! What made dawud a.s sense that he had done something wrong if he never knew before this event that listening to both sides was mandatory.

My answer was clear, Was it not? If not then please can you give us an Answer?

Statement:

Bro before you embarrass yourself anymore please go and find out the meaning of infallibility then come back and tell me whether dawud a.s commuted any mistake whatsoever and where does that leave infallibility.

Let us begin answering this question by defining the term infallibility (‘ismah). ’Allamah Tabataba`i defines infallibility as “the presence of a quality in a person that prevents him from committing any impermissible act such as a sin.”

Al-Fadil al-Miqdad, a ranking Shi’i theologian, presents a more thorough definition, when he says, “Infallibility is a trait bestowed by Allah to a legally accountable individual (mukallaf) in such a way that the presence of this trait negates in this individual any motive to disobey or commit a sin while he remains capable of doing so. This bestowal is a consequence of the person’s acquisition of a moral habit (malakah) of refraining from sin. In addition, this person is aware of the reward earned through obedience and the punishment incurred through disobedience and is apprehensive of forgetfulness and failing to perform the better of two praiseworthy acts.”

It is essential to note that infallibility never compels a person to obey nor prevents him from disobeying. Rather, his faith, knowledge, and perception of Allah’s greatness has reached a level where they do not allow him to commit a sin or disobey Allah (awj). According to several ahadith, Allah (awj) strengthens the prophets and Imams through the Pure Spirit, the Spirit of Faith, the Spirit of Strength, the Spirit of Lust, and the Lofty Spirit.

Now that we have defined infallibility, we turn to an analysis of the intellectual and textual proofs for the existence of this trait in certain individuals. As a preliminary note, when examining the verses of the Qur`an concerning the infallibility of the prophets, it is important to keep in mind that Divine revelation can never contradict human reason. Therefore, we must read these verses in light of reason, so that no contradictions occur.

With respect to the infallibility of the prophets, we will mention only one rational proof. Al-Shaykh al-Tusi, in a very terse statement, says, “Infallibility is necessary for a prophet so that surety in him is attained, and as a result, the purpose of creation is fulfilled.” In other words, a prophet must be infallible so that mankind can trust the revelation that he brings.

Some scholars have expressed this proof in the following way: “Once the intellect independently accepts the existence of Allah and the logical possibility of revelation and prophethood (in a general sense, not as pertains to any specific prophet), the intellect then affirms the necessity of the infallibility of the prophets in receiving and conveying divine revelation. The evidence for this is that since Allah has sent his prophets to guide mankind, he must send a person who is neither careless nor forgetful, much less sinful. If not, He will contradict His own purpose in sending prophets, revelation, and in essence, the purpose of creation itself. If the prophets were capable of carelessness, forgetfulness, or sin, people would never fully trust that what they say is from Allah. They would always entertain the possibility that the prophets have lied to them or made a mistake or misunderstood Allah’s intent.”

This theological principle is firmly based on the attributes of Allah (awj) himself. In particular it is based on His omniscience (‘ilm), omnipotence (qudrah), the purposefulness of His actions (hikmah) — both in creation and legislation — and in essence, on the fact that He is free from impropriety, injustice, and purposelessness. If a prophet were to make a mistake in receiving or conveying revelation, this mistake would demonstrate either ignorance, weakness, or incompetence in Allah’s (awj) actions.

In reality, if the prophet were not infallible, either he would accidentally or intentionally make mistakes in guiding people or, at the very least, his people would not trust him sufficiently, either in terms of his claims to prophethood or in terms of the message and duties that he brings. In the first case, the prophethood would become a cau se for the misguidance of people. In the second case, the prophethood would be utterly without purpose. Far be it from Allah (awj) to either misguide or act without purpose.

Until now, we have defined infallibility and presented one intellectual proof for the necessity of this quality in the prophets.

Statement:

The son is asking prophet (s) to deal with him according to Allah law. Knowing he was guilty he wanted his due punishment out of fear of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Also he is just like his father asking "His opponent got up and said, "He is right. judge between us according to Allah's Laws." So he wanted his due punishment according to Allah law and never came to prophet (s) refuting his father. The father was not there when his son fornicated and I'm pretty sure they never did it in public. So it's pretty obvious the son has admitted to his father his mistake and wants to pay the price.

First of all in the following Narration the point of me pointing it out is that the prophet (p.b.u.h) said that he was acting according to the Law of Allah, (as I highlighted in Read did you no see?), So there a point rises how can prophet Dawud (a.s) commit a mistake by judging according to the Law of Allah? Is the Law of Allah False? No Dear brother, it is defiantly not. Second of All Brother You Mistake the purpose for me pointing out the narration above, in it we find that this was a mere 'case' on the son of the Man for committing the Atrocity mentioned. The prophet Peace be upon him gave a 'Judgement' According to the Law of Allah, Same with prophet Dawud (a.s) he acts according to the Law of Allah, and it is impossible for a prophet to go against the Law of Allah. Do dear brother The Man is asking about his son, and The Opponents Only "Judge between Us according to the Law of Allah" He had full trust in the prophet and did not make a stance against the prophet peace be upon him (according to the Narration)

You fail to Answer me again brother:

Didn't prophet Dawud (a.s) Judge according to the Law of Allah? If not, then How can he be a prophet?

YOU SAID

Statement:

What did Allah ( swt) exactly forgive him, if he had made no mistake??

As I stated:

MY ANSWER

You are not directly answering the questions but instead ducking and diving, where's your logic.

If as you say dawud a.s was being "taught" this obviously means he did not know before this that it was mandatory to listen to both sides.

So I asked you if dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory to listen to both sides then what made him sense that he had done something wrong??

Either he knew and made a hasty decision then realised his mistake that he should of heard both sides

Or

He never knew it was mandatory and this begs the question: if he wasn't aware of something then how can he think he's done something wrong!! Also if he a.s as you say did not know it was mandatory then what made him think he had been tried.

YOU SAID

Statement:

How am I "manipulating my stance".

Taking Ones Stance on an Issue and bringing Multiple Issues or Beliefs without Reference in order to Manipulate the oppositions statement.

MY ANSWER

I asked you a question after you accused me of changing my stance.

You never tolde how I changed my stance but instead accused me of trying to manipulate yours.

So il ask you again...

HOW HAVE I CHANGED MY STANCE.

YOU SAID

learn our Aqida properly, because in your recent posts on Uli al amr your justifying your false view to ours, and yet ours differs while you force your beliefs "No you believe this", without any source or Reference. Second of All I know what Infallibility means, And when I say they do not commit sin, this mean on terms of disobedience to Allah, and When I mean Mistake, I mean Disobedience in Social terms, and prophet Dawud (a.s) has committed Neither.

MY ANSWER

When did I say you believe this and that without any source??

So prophet dawud a.s never committed a mistake by not asking both versions?? Right right..

So il ask you my question again and this time use your "sense" and "logic"...

If dawud a.s was unsure that listening to both sides was not mandatory then what made him sense he's done something wrong??

If he thought it was a "normal"thing for him to judge without asking both sides then what made him sense he done something wrong??

Simple question which you will not answer. For obvious reasons.

YOU SAID

Prophets (a.s) can not commit Sin. And your Initial intention of This is to prove to us that they do 'Commit' Sins'.

MY ANSWER

Show me where I made such a statement.

You also have not told me:

If dawud a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness then why in verse 25 does it say "we forgave him that"?? If he never made a mistake what exactly did Allah (swt) forgive him??

YOU SAID

You fail to Answer me again brother:

Didn't prophet Dawud (a.s) Judge according to the Law of Allah? If not, then How can he be a prophet?

MY ANSWER

I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

I've already told you the decision made by dawud a.s between the two angels/human was correct but the mistake he made was not listening to both sides.

Also do you mean part of infallibility means that the individual cannot make a mistake.

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FIRST YOU ASK ME THIS QUESTION TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO THE SITUATION OF DAWUD a.s

Just the truth did the prophet peace be upon him make a mistake in his judgement? HE DID NOT HEAR THE OPINION OF THE SON OF THE MAN, so did the prophet make a mistake?

MY ANSWER

Then when I replied to you as to why you were wrong to compare the situations you switched your stance to:

First of all in the following Narration the point of me pointing it out is that the prophet (p.b.u.h) said that he was acting according to the Law of Allah, (as I highlighted in Read did you no see?), So there a point rises how can prophet Dawud (a.s) commit a mistake by judging according to the Law of Allah?

MY ANSWER

Then you changed your stance to say that the reason you bought the hadith was not to show if prophet made a mistake by not listening to both sides but to show that dawud a.s was acting according to the book of Allah (swt) which by the way I have never till this rejected. The only thing I said was that he made a mistake by not listening to both sides

.... And then you have the nerve to accuse me of changing my stance.... Subhanallah

The thing you failed to realise before bringing that hadith was that both father and son were agreed upon that the son was guilty and the only reason they came was for confirmation of the law whereas the two angels/human acted as though they had a dispute among themselves, so in this situation it was the job of dawud a.s to listen to both sides to be fair although he knew the answer. This is why he was rebuked. Hence prophets a.s make mistakes but they are protected in the revelation they bring:

"Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only a Revelation revealed. He has been taught (this Quran) by one mighty in power.” (Quran, 53:1-5)

And this verse does not mean every single word the prophet (pbuh) spoke was "revelation" as you shia keep bringing up this verse to prove something for the pen and paper hadith.

The prophets a.s were also protected from major sins, but they could easily make mistakes but were forgiven of course.

Edited by Just the truth

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FIRST YOU ASK ME THIS QUESTION TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO THE SITUATION OF DAWUD a.s

Just the truth did the prophet peace be upon him make a mistake in his judgement? HE DID NOT HEAR THE OPINION OF THE SON OF THE MAN, so did the prophet make a mistake?

MY ANSWER

Then when I replied to you as to why you were wrong to compare the situations you switched your stance to:

First of all in the following Narration the point of me pointing it out is that the prophet (p.b.u.h) said that he was acting according to the Law of Allah, (as I highlighted in Read did you no see?), So there a point rises how can prophet Dawud (a.s) commit a mistake by judging according to the Law of Allah?

MY ANSWER

Then you changed your stance to say that the reason you bought the hadith was not to show if prophet made a mistake by not listening to both sides but to show that dawud a.s was acting according to the book of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì which by the way I have never till this rejected. The only thing I said was that he made a mistake by not listening to both sides

.... And then you have the nerve to accuse me of changing my stance.... Subhanallah

 

 

 

(1) you must be Ignorant brother, I did not change my stance, and yes I have the right to Question your stances as they are being changed from your very first post on Appointing A Successor and to Uli al amr. I never changed any of my stances, Its clear the boy was not asked, and was not present during the Situation, so I Asked you according to Law of Justice, for one to make a claim about another even his own son, then this is required to hear the view of the son and the man, and the opponent to make a A clear justice, But the prophet Knew Peace be upon him, for he knows the unseen and made a Clear Judgement that is Righteous according to the Law of Allah. 

Please less Complaining and more Proving (have seen Non till today).

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Statement:

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I've already told you the decision made by dawud a.s between the two angels/human was correct but the mistake he made was not listening to both sides

 

 

 
Statement:
If as you say dawud a.s was being "taught" this obviously means he did not know before this that it was mandatory to listen to both sides.

 

I bring this up to justify my point of view of course and that Judgement is made pure and only according to the Law of Allah. What mistake is there in doing what you know and in accordance to what Allah has taught you? He now knows that you must listen to both sides in the case ' If you do not know' The Truth, but he is a prophet who Knows the unseen and the truth and his Judgement was righteous, But Allah Tried him and showed him the better option.

 

Statement:

If dawud a.s was unsure that listening to both sides was not mandatory then what made him sense he's done something wrong?? If he thought it was a "normal"thing for him to judge without asking both sides then what made him sense he done something wrong??

 

(1) yes its normal, as he judges in accordance to the Law of Allah and his Judgement is pure truth.
(2) If the prophet made a Judgement, would you question him in his Judgement?
(3) Knowing that even of your a prophet It is mandatory to hear all those even when he 'knows the Truth'.

 

 

Statement:

You are not directly answering the questions but instead ducking and diving, where's your logic.

 

How am I not answering your Question? explain? Do you use your logical reasoning In this? or the assumption to justify your beliefs?

 

 

Statement:

So I asked you if dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory to listen to both sides then what made him sense that he had done something wrong?? 

 

No, because his Judgement is in accordance to the Law of Allah, and the Law of Allah can never be wrong.

 

 

Statement:
Either he knew and made a hasty decision then realised his mistake that he should of heard both sides 

 

(1) He 'thought', but not admit that he was 'Wrong' at certainty.

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Statement:

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I've already told you the decision made by dawud a.s between the two angels/human was correct but the mistake he made was not listening to both sides

Statement:

If as you say dawud a.s was being "taught" this obviously means he did not know before this that it was mandatory to listen to both sides.

I bring this up to justify my point of view of course and that Judgement is made pure and only according to the Law of Allah. What mistake is there in doing what you know and in accordance to what Allah has taught you? He now knows that you must listen to both sides in the case ' If you do not know' The Truth, but he is a prophet who Knows the unseen and the truth and his Judgement was righteous, But Allah Tried him and showed him the better option.

Statement:

If dawud a.s was unsure that listening to both sides was not mandatory then what made him sense he's done something wrong?? If he thought it was a "normal"thing for him to judge without asking both sides then what made him sense he done something wrong??

(1) yes its normal, as he judges in accordance to the Law of Allah and his Judgement is pure truth.

(2) If the prophet made a Judgement, would you question him in his Judgement?

(3) Knowing that even of your a prophet It is mandatory to hear all those even when he 'knows the Truth'.

Statement:

You are not directly answering the questions but instead ducking and diving, where's your logic.

How am I not answering your Question? explain? Do you use your logical reasoning In this? or the assumption to justify your beliefs?

Statement:

So I asked you if dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory to listen to both sides then what made him sense that he had done something wrong??

No, because his Judgement is in accordance to the Law of Allah, and the Law of Allah can never be wrong.

Statement:

Either he knew and made a hasty decision then realised his mistake that he should of heard both sides

(1) He 'thought', but not admit that he was 'Wrong' at certainty.

YOU SAID

(1) He 'thought', but not admit that he was 'Wrong' at certainty.

MY ANSWER

... And this where you go wrong. Where in the verse does it say "he thought he made a mistake". It says "he thought we tried him". Now the question I'm asking you is that if dawud a.s before this event never knew that listening to both sides was mandatory and it was a "normal" thing for him to pass judgement in this manner then why did he think he had done something wrong. Use your logic, if you're not aware that something is wrong then what would make you think it's wrong.

Obviously dawud a.s as far as he was aware passed the judgement in a correct method but then why think afterwards that you have done something wrong.

YOU SAID

I bring this up to justify my point of view of course and that Judgement is made pure and only according to the Law of Allah. What mistake is there in doing what you know and in accordance to what Allah has taught you?

MY ANSWER

Where is your proof that Allah (swt) told dawud a.s to pass judgement in any manner he wished but then later on changed his mind that he should pass judgement by listening to both sides. Is there even any reason for that.

YOU SAID

No, because his Judgement is in accordance to the Law of Allah, and the Law of Allah can never be wrong.

MY ANSWER

I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25:

“So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

Firstly you said dawud a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness then why did Allah (swt) forgive him. Dawud a.s obviously done something that Allah (swt) forgave. What was it?? Allah (swt) just never said it randomly in the quran paak that "we forgave him that", so I'm asking what did Allah (swt) forgive him.

Also what is your stance regarding Adam a.s eating from the tree.

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Statement:

Also what is your stance regarding Adam a.s eating from the tree. 

 

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood. At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth. Thus from the Beginning of Adams Prophethood, he has never committed any Disobedience To Allah.  


Statement:
... And this where you go wrong. Where in the verse does it say "he thought he made a mistake". It says "he thought we tried him". Now the question I'm asking you is that if dawud a.s before this event never knew that listening to both sides was mandatory and it was a "normal" thing for him to pass judgement in this manner then why did he think he had done something wrong. Use your logic, if you're not aware that something is wrong then what would make you think it's wrong. I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25: “So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

 

As a prophet (a.s) It is not Expect of you at all times, since the people always would Acknowledge Him as a prophet people already accept whatever he says since it is in Accordance to the Law of Allah. And The purpose of this test, is that Allah Wanted to teach Dawud (a.s) the Jurisprudence on this issue, as the Sheep  of the Owner fell in to the Farm of the Person, at such a Sheep ate his Harvest, So the Ruling here is that the Owner of the Sheep has to give the Person of the Harvest his Sheep and the Owner must also replant the Harvest that was lost from the person, making this a Fair Way to solve things and then Allah Taught Prophet Solomon (a.s) the same issue, as he Encountered it and Allah has Taught Prophet Dawud (a.s) and Solomon (a.s) the Same issue that Dawud (a.s) was tested on we read In Surat Al-Anbya verse 78-79:




وَدَاوُودَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ إِذْ يَحْكُمَانِ فِي الْحَرْثِ إِذْ نَفَشَتْ فِيهِ غَنَمُ الْقَوْمِ وَكُنَّا لِحُكْمِهِمْ شَاهِدِينَ

 

 

And [mention] David and Solomon, when they judged concerning the field - when the sheep of a people overran it [at night], and We were witness to their judgement.

 

 

فَفَهَّمْنَاهَا سُلَيْمَانَ وَكُلًّا آتَيْنَا حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَسَخَّرْنَا مَعَ دَاوُودَ الْجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحْنَ وَالطَّيْرَ وَكُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

 

And We gave understanding of the case to Solomon, and to each [of them] We gave judgement and knowledge. And We subjected the mountains to exalt [us], along with David and [also] the birds. And We were doing [that].

 

 

 

 

 

 

This the main issue, and the other issue as I mentioned Earlier on, One who acts According to 'The Law of Allah' Can never be Wrong or even make a slight mistake, as the Law of Allah is Ruling is Pure of Justice and Truth, no human being can deny, as then we The prophet Dawud (a.s) In reality no mistake was done what so ever dear brother, Whether he knew it was mandatory or not at the moment he ruled purely in the Conduct of Justice Taught by Allah. Not listing to the Side, which "he' The prophet (a.s) Already knows, the view of both sides and already knows the Answer, by that moment in the procedure of the test, he became aware then it would be the "better" option. 

And God Knows.

(Wasalam)
 

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Anyway, Abu Bakr al Siddeeq (ra) was hand picked by Rasoolullah  (pbuh) to be the first khaleefah of Islam.

 

It is our belief that whomsoever disbelieves in the khilafat and leadership of Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qahafah (ra) is seriously mistaken. He was unanimously selected by the sahabah (ra) of the Prophet  (pbuh) to lead them. It is also our belief that whoever denies the iman of Abu Bakr (ra), Umar (ra), Uthmaan (ra), or Ali (ra) is a kaffir.

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Anyway, Abu Bakr al Siddeeq (ra) was hand picked by Rasoolullah  (pbuh) to be the first khaleefah of Islam.

 

It is our belief that whomsoever disbelieves in the khilafat and leadership of Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qahafah (ra) is seriously mistaken. He was unanimously selected by the sahabah (ra) of the Prophet  (pbuh) to lead them. It is also our belief that whoever denies the iman of Abu Bakr (ra), Umar (ra), Uthmaan (ra), or Ali (ra) is a kaffir.

 

 

(1) The prophet peace be upon him Never picked up the hand of Abu bakr, can you please prove this Throught Authentic Narrations.

(2) The prophet Peace be upon him Choose Imam Ali (a.s) and picked up his hand on the Day of ghadir Khum. So please don't Spread false facts.

(3) If One Disbelieves in the Khilafa of Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman, is Kafir, then this must be one of the foundations of Islam, so tell me where in the Quran it says I have to believe in them to become a Muslim?

(4) Imam Ali (A.s) never was a Caliph In the view of Ahlul-Sunnah, your only saying this to hide the Crime of Abu bakr against Imam Ali (a.s) in taking his right.

(5) when Did Imam Ali (a.s) rule as Caliph? According to the Sunnah.? 

  

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I didnt say that whoever disbelieves in the khilafah of the first 3 is a kaffir, I said who ever believes that they were murtadds, munafiqs, kaffirs are kaffirs. We dont believe in any imaginary fight between Ali (ra) and Abu Bakr (ra).

This is your invention. Ali (ra) became khalifah when he was ready and when Allah willed it.

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I didnt say that whoever disbelieves in the khilafah of the first 3 is a kaffir, I said who ever believes that they were murtadds, munafiqs, kaffirs are kaffirs. We dont believe in any imaginary fight between Ali (ra) and Abu Bakr (ra).

This is your invention. Ali (ra) became khalifah when he was ready and when Allah willed it.

I ask you again:

 

(1) The prophet peace be upon him Never picked up the hand of Abu bakr, can you please prove this Throught Authentic Narrations.

 

 

The fact that they attacked and Burned the House of Fatima and Imam Ali (A.s) is a Historical Fact and is not from our Invention, this is over 40 narrations of this issue in your own books:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235015738-did-the-prophet-s-appoint-a-successor/page-12

 

Please, When providing a Statement, Give Literature proof that is Authentic in Rejecting the narrations above.

And please read the whole Thread, before hasting in your reply. 

 

When Did Imam Ali (a.s) Rule? When did he become Caliph? was he the First or the Forth? please stop Ignoring the Previous Questions.

(Wasalam)

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Statement:

Also what is your stance regarding Adam a.s eating from the tree.

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood. At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth. Thus from the Beginning of Adams Prophethood, he has never committed any Disobedience To Allah.

Statement:

... And this where you go wrong. Where in the verse does it say "he thought he made a mistake". It says "he thought we tried him". Now the question I'm asking you is that if dawud a.s before this event never knew that listening to both sides was mandatory and it was a "normal" thing for him to pass judgement in this manner then why did he think he had done something wrong. Use your logic, if you're not aware that something is wrong then what would make you think it's wrong. I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25: “So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

As a prophet (a.s) It is not Expect of you at all times, since the people always would Acknowledge Him as a prophet people already accept whatever he says since it is in Accordance to the Law of Allah. And The purpose of this test, is that Allah Wanted to teach Dawud (a.s) the Jurisprudence on this issue, as the Sheep of the Owner fell in to the Farm of the Person, at such a Sheep ate his Harvest, So the Ruling here is that the Owner of the Sheep has to give the Person of the Harvest his Sheep and the Owner must also replant the Harvest that was lost from the person, making this a Fair Way to solve things and then Allah Taught Prophet Solomon (a.s) the same issue, as he Encountered it and Allah has Taught Prophet Dawud (a.s) and Solomon (a.s) the Same issue that Dawud (a.s) was tested on we read In Surat Al-Anbya verse 78-79:

وَدَاوُودَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ إِذْ يَحْكُمَانِ فِي الْحَرْثِ إِذْ نَفَشَتْ فِيهِ غَنَمُ الْقَوْمِ وَكُنَّا لِحُكْمِهِمْ شَاهِدِينَ

And [mention] David and Solomon, when they judged concerning the field - when the sheep of a people overran it [at night], and We were witness to their judgement.

فَفَهَّمْنَاهَا سُلَيْمَانَ وَكُلًّا آتَيْنَا حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَسَخَّرْنَا مَعَ دَاوُودَ الْجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحْنَ وَالطَّيْرَ وَكُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

And We gave understanding of the case to Solomon, and to each [of them] We gave judgement and knowledge. And We subjected the mountains to exalt [us], along with David and [also] the birds. And We were doing [that].

This the main issue, and the other issue as I mentioned Earlier on, One who acts According to 'The Law of Allah' Can never be Wrong or even make a slight mistake, as the Law of Allah is Ruling is Pure of Justice and Truth, no human being can deny, as then we The prophet Dawud (a.s) In reality no mistake was done what so ever dear brother, Whether he knew it was mandatory or not at the moment he ruled purely in the Conduct of Justice Taught by Allah. Not listing to the Side, which "he' The prophet (a.s) Already knows, the view of both sides and already knows the Answer, by that moment in the procedure of the test, he became aware then it would be the "better" option.

And God Knows.

(Wasalam)

I will reply tonight inshallah. On this thread and ulil amr.

Assalamu alaykum

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Statement:

Also what is your stance regarding Adam a.s eating from the tree.

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood. At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth. Thus from the Beginning of Adams Prophethood, he has never committed any Disobedience To Allah.

Statement:

... And this where you go wrong. Where in the verse does it say "he thought he made a mistake". It says "he thought we tried him". Now the question I'm asking you is that if dawud a.s before this event never knew that listening to both sides was mandatory and it was a "normal" thing for him to pass judgement in this manner then why did he think he had done something wrong. Use your logic, if you're not aware that something is wrong then what would make you think it's wrong. I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25: “So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

As a prophet (a.s) It is not Expect of you at all times, since the people always would Acknowledge Him as a prophet people already accept whatever he says since it is in Accordance to the Law of Allah. And The purpose of this test, is that Allah Wanted to teach Dawud (a.s) the Jurisprudence on this issue, as the Sheep of the Owner fell in to the Farm of the Person, at such a Sheep ate his Harvest, So the Ruling here is that the Owner of the Sheep has to give the Person of the Harvest his Sheep and the Owner must also replant the Harvest that was lost from the person, making this a Fair Way to solve things and then Allah Taught Prophet Solomon (a.s) the same issue, as he Encountered it and Allah has Taught Prophet Dawud (a.s) and Solomon (a.s) the Same issue that Dawud (a.s) was tested on we read In Surat Al-Anbya verse 78-79:

وَدَاوُودَ وَسُلَيْمَانَ إِذْ يَحْكُمَانِ فِي الْحَرْثِ إِذْ نَفَشَتْ فِيهِ غَنَمُ الْقَوْمِ وَكُنَّا لِحُكْمِهِمْ شَاهِدِينَ

And [mention] David and Solomon, when they judged concerning the field - when the sheep of a people overran it [at night], and We were witness to their judgement.

فَفَهَّمْنَاهَا سُلَيْمَانَ وَكُلًّا آتَيْنَا حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَسَخَّرْنَا مَعَ دَاوُودَ الْجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحْنَ وَالطَّيْرَ وَكُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ

And We gave understanding of the case to Solomon, and to each [of them] We gave judgement and knowledge. And We subjected the mountains to exalt [us], along with David and [also] the birds. And We were doing [that].

This the main issue, and the other issue as I mentioned Earlier on, One who acts According to 'The Law of Allah' Can never be Wrong or even make a slight mistake, as the Law of Allah is Ruling is Pure of Justice and Truth, no human being can deny, as then we The prophet Dawud (a.s) In reality no mistake was done what so ever dear brother, Whether he knew it was mandatory or not at the moment he ruled purely in the Conduct of Justice Taught by Allah. Not listing to the Side, which "he' The prophet (a.s) Already knows, the view of both sides and already knows the Answer, by that moment in the procedure of the test, he became aware then it would be the "better" option.

And God Knows.

(Wasalam)

DID PROPHET APPOINT A SUCCESSOR.

YOU SAID

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood. At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth. Thus from the Beginning of Adams Prophethood, he has never committed any Disobedience To Allah.

MY ANSWER

Wrong.

YOU SAID

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood

MY ANSWER

You are wrong brother.

5. Prophets are absolutely infallible in regard to all types of sin, whether major or minor, and whether intentional or unintentional. This is the view espoused by the Imamiyyah, the Shi’ites. According to the Shi’ite school of thought, the prophets are endowed with infallibility even BEFORE they are appointed to prophethood. The only negative deed that they might perform is acting in opposition to what is encouraged (but not mandatory) or what is more meritorious.

YOU SAID

At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth.

MY ANSWER

Wrong again brother

The other position—which seems to be the correct one of the two—is that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when committing the deed in question, for Jibra`il would visit him and the visitation of Jibra`il indicates prophethood, for he does not visit anyone but prophets. This point is strengthened by the fact that Allah (awj) taught Adam (ع) all the “names” and it was only he that knew them and not even the angels had that knowledge. On that account, Adam (ع) was appointed teacher to the angels, bestowing to them the knowledge of the “names”. All these incidents were prior to Adam’s (ع) eating from the forbidden tree. Hence, it can be inferred that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when he committed the deed in question.

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-22-original-sin-adam-and-eve

Again you have evaded my questions.

I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25:

“So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

Firstly you said dawud a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness can you explain this. Also then why did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him. If he a.s asked for protection?? Dawud a.s obviously done something that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave. What was it?? Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì just never said it randomly in the quran paak that "we forgave him that", so I'm asking what did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him.

Just to finish this reply id like to say that a prophet is a prophet from the start, as soon as he takes his first breath this is a sunni shia believe. Only Wahabbies claim that prophets are only prophets after they claim to be prophets. Please do not bring wahabbi beliefs here.

The ISLAMIC history if you would like to wrap things up right now, then I'm ok with that as this is not winning or loosing for me, but if you want to carry on then this is also ok with me. Either way is fine with me, because Altgough I don't like being here I am willing to prolong this debate for as long as possible even if it takes a year plus.

Assalamu alaykum

Edited by Just the truth

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DID PROPHET APPOINT A SUCCESSOR.

YOU SAID

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood. At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth. Thus from the Beginning of Adams Prophethood, he has never committed any Disobedience To Allah.

MY ANSWER

Wrong.

YOU SAID

Adam (a.s) never committed Sin in the "Start" Of His prophethood

MY ANSWER

You are wrong brother.

5. Prophets are absolutely infallible in regard to all types of sin, whether major or minor, and whether intentional or unintentional. This is the view espoused by the Imamiyyah, the Shi’ites. According to the Shi’ite school of thought, the prophets are endowed with infallibility even BEFORE they are appointed to prophethood. The only negative deed that they might perform is acting in opposition to what is encouraged (but not mandatory) or what is more meritorious.

YOU SAID

At the time he as not a prophet (a.s) he only became a prophet When he was Brought Down to Earth.

MY ANSWER

Wrong again brother

The other position—which seems to be the correct one of the two—is that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when committing the deed in question, for Jibra`il would visit him and the visitation of Jibra`il indicates prophethood, for he does not visit anyone but prophets. This point is strengthened by the fact that Allah (awj) taught Adam (ع) all the “names” and it was only he that knew them and not even the angels had that knowledge. On that account, Adam (ع) was appointed teacher to the angels, bestowing to them the knowledge of the “names”. All these incidents were prior to Adam’s (ع) eating from the forbidden tree. Hence, it can be inferred that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when he committed the deed in question.

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-22-original-sin-adam-and-eve

Again you have evaded my questions.

I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25:

“So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.”

Firstly you said dawud a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness can you explain this. Also then why did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him. If he a.s asked for protection?? Dawud a.s obviously done something that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave. What was it?? Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì just never said it randomly in the quran paak that "we forgave him that", so I'm asking what did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him.

Just to finish this reply id like to say that a prophet is a prophet from the start, as soon as he takes his first breath this is a sunni shia believe. Only Wahabbies claim that prophets are only prophets after they claim to be prophets. Please do not bring wahabbi beliefs here.

The ISLAMIC history if you would like to wrap things up right now, then I'm ok with that as this is not winning or loosing for me, but if you want to carry on then this is also ok with me. Either way is fine with me, because Altgough I don't like being here I am willing to prolong this debate for as long as possible even if it takes a year plus.

Assalamu alaykum

 

 

 

 

You cannot claim I am wrong then simply put a Explanation as if your view as been accept. I am afraid your explanation is Invalid. First of all we read in Chapter 2 (al-Baqarah) verses 30-39: 

 

 

When your Lord said to the angels, “I am going to place a vicegerent on the earth,” the angels said, “Will You place on the earth the one who shall act wickedly in it and shed blood; whereas we sing Your praise and glorify You?” Allah said, “Surely I know what you do not know.”

 

 

 

And [after creating Adam] Allah taught Adam all the names. Then He presented those to the angels and said, “Tell me the names of these if you are true [in what your assumption that you are more superior than Adam].” They said, “Glory be to You! We have no knowledge except what You have taught us. You are surely the All-Knowing, the Wise.” [Then] He said, “O Adam! Tell them the names of those [persons].” When Adam told them those names, Allah said [to the angels], “Didn't I say to you that I know the unseen things of the heavens and the earth, and I know what you manifest and what you hide.”

 

 

And [remember] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam.” All of them prostrated except Iblis, who refused and was haughty, and [thus] he became one of the unbelievers.

 

 

In Paradise:

[After creating Hawwa}, We said, “O Adam, Dwell you and your wife in the Garden and eat from it [freely] as many [things] as you wish; but do not approach this tree, otherwise you will become one of the ¨alimeen اَلظَّالِمِيْنَ .”

 

 

But the Shaytan made them slip (اَزَلَّهُما) from that [Garden by luring them to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree] and thus got them out from the state [of felicity] in which they had been.

 

 

So We said [to Adam, Hawwa, and the Shaytan that, “All of you] get down [from the Garden to the earth] some of you being the enemies of the other, and there is on the earth your abode and the necessities [of life] for a [fixed period of] time.” [Adam felt ashamed and intended to ask Allah's forgiveness.] So Adam learnt some words from his Lord, and Allah turned to him mercifully (تَابَ عَلَيْهِ). Surely He is the Most- Forgiving, the Merciful. We said, “All of you get down from the Garden. [Once you are on the earth], a guidance will certainly come to you from Me: whosoever follows My guidance, there will be no fear for them nor shall they grieve. But those who disbelieve and reject Our revelation, they are the inmates of the Fire, in it they shall abide.”

 

We read in Chapter 7 (al-A'râf) verses 19-25

 

[Allah said,] “O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Garden and eat from wherever you wish; but do not approach this tree, otherwise you will become one of the ¨alimeen اَلظَّالِمِيْنَ”

 

 

Then the Shaytan instilled temptation into them so as to reveal to them their private parts that were hidden from them. He said, “Your Lord has only prohibited you from this tree lest you both become rulers, or lest you become immortals.” [To ensure that his temptation will work, the Shaytan] swore to them both that, “Truly, I am a sincere adviser for you.” Thus he misled them by delusion.

 

So when they tasted [the fruit of] the tree, their private parts became manifest to them, and both of them started to cover themselves with the leaves of the Garden. Their Lord called out to them, “Did I not prohibit both of you from this tree and say to you that the Shaytan is your open enemy?”

 

They said, “Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves (¨alamna ظلمنا أنفُسَنا); and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, we shall surely be among the losers.”

 

Allah said, “Get down [to the earth], some of you being the enemies of the others; and there is on the earth your abode and necessities [of life] for a time.” He said, “Therein you shall live, therein you shall die, and from it you shall be raised [again].”

 

Chapter 20 (Ta Ha) verses 116-126

 

 

 

 

And [remember] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam,” all of them prostrated except Iblis who refused and was haughty.

 

Therefore, We said, “O Adam! this [shaytan] is an enemy to you and your wife. So do not let him expel you from the Garden, otherwise you will be uncomfortable (تشقى): in it [i.e., the Garden] you shall neither be hungry nor naked, and you shall neither be thirsty therein nor struck by the sun's rays.”

 

 

But the Shaytan instilled temptation to him by saying, “O Adam! Shall I guide you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not decline?” When [they] both ate of that tree, their private parts became manifest to them and both of them started to cover themselves with the leaves of the Garden.

 

Adam disobeyed (عَصى ) his Lord, and so he erred (غوى). Then his Lord chose him, and then He turned to him and guided him.

 

[Then] Allah said [to Shaytan and Adam], “You both get down from this [Garden}, some of you being the enemies of the other. [On the earth], a guidance will certainly come to you from Me, and then whosoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor will he be unhappy. But whosoever turns away from My reminder, then he shall surely have a wretched life and we shall resurrect him blind.”

 

_______________

 

 

1. According to the experts of Islamic jurisprudence, the orders given by Allah are of two types:

 

Al-amr al-mawlawi, a legislative command. Such orders must be implemented; and, if someone disobeys such a command, then he is committing a sin and is liable to be punished. For example, the command to “say the daily prayers” or “do not eat the pork” is of such nature. Neglecting the daily prayers or eating of the pork is a sin and Allah can rightly punish the sinner.

 

Al-amr al-irshadi, an advisory command. Such orders are of advisory nature; their purpose is to inform the people about its consequences. However, if someone disobeys such an order, then he is not committing a sin; of course, he will have to face the consequences of not following the advice. For example, the command to “saybismillah when you slaughter the chicken” is of advisory nature.

 

Now, if someone slaughters the chicken and neglects the saying of “bismillah,” then has he committed a sin? No, he has not committed a sin nor is he liable for a punishment for not saying the “bismillah” at that time. However, he will lose the right to eat that chicken; that chicken cannot be eaten by a Muslim.

 

Another example: a person comes to his doctor complaining of cough. The doctor advises his patient to drink a certain medicine, a cough syrup. Now if the patient ignores that advice, then he is not committing a sin or a crime; but he will surely suffer the consequence — his illness will be prolonged and his health might deteriorate.

 

Conclusion: not all commands of Allah are of obligatory or prohibitive nature. The advice given to Adam and Hawwa was not of the legislative nature. It was not that that particular tree and its fruit themselves were forbidden. The prohibition of going near that tree and eating its fruit was al-amr al-irshadi. And going against such an order is not a sin; at most, the doer will have to face the consequences of ignoring that advice. In case of Adam and his wife, the consequence they faced was cancellation of their tenure as guests of Allah in the Paradise and its comforts. Remember that they were not supposed to stay in the Paradise forever; they were created for the earth, and their stay in the Paradise was meant to be temporary.

 

 

2. The Garden/Paradise is not the place for test and trial. It is this earth on which human beings have been destined to go through test and trial by obeying the commands of Allah. The concept of sinning in case of human beings is connected to the worldly life.

 

In the story of Adam itself, Allah makes this point clear when He orders Adam to go to the earth—He said,

 

“You both get down from this [Garden], some of you being the enemies of the other. [On the earth], aguidance will certainly come to you from Me, and then whosoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor will he be unhappy. But whosoever turns away from My reminder, then he shall surely have a wretched life and we shall resurrect him blind.” (20:126)

 

 

The order given to Adam in Heaven is not same as the orders given to human beings in this world—it is disobedience of the orders given on this earth that constitutes sin.

 

 

Finally, the Shaytan himself knows that he does not have the power to mislead the prophets, the messengers, and those who are graced with purity by Almighty Himself. When he was given respite by Allah, he declared the following:

 

 

“So I swear by Your Might (O Lord) that I will surely mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Yours from among them.” (38:82-3; 15:39-40)

 

And Allah responds to him by saying,

 

“…As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people…” (15:41)

 

The Satan himself knew the limitation of his influence upon the chosen servants of Allah in this world.

 

3. Those who believe that Adam committed a sin, describe the eating of the forbidden fruit as the “sin” and Adam's expulsion from the heaven as the “punishment”. However, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:

 

Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allah had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit, Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

 

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after Allah “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”—Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam's coming to the earth was not a “punishment”; and eating was not a “sin”.

 

4. What about the words in the story Adam that imply that he committed sin?

 

After studying the issue of 'ismah from the Qur'anic point of view, if we come across such words we have to interpret them in a way that they are in harmony with the other verses of the Qur'an. Now let us look at three such words that have occurred in the story of Adam.

First: the word ”¨alimeen الظالمين" is from ¨ulm ظلم. This word has four meanings: Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to put something in a wrong place; (.B ) to oppress; © to make haste; and (d) to come to harm.

 

We see that the last two meanings of the word are in harmony with what we explained about 'ismah. For example, verse 2:35 would read like this:

 

We said, “O Adam, Dwell you and your wife in the Garden and eat from it [freely] as many [things] as you wish; but do not approach this tree, otherwise you will be one of those who put themselves into harm.”

 

Here, “harm” would mean facing the difficulties of the earthly life and losing the comforts of the heaven.

or

 

"…otherwise, you will be one of those who make haste.” Here, “making haste” would mean that they were eventually to go to the earth but by eating from the forbidden tree they hastened their departure to a place where they will lose the comforts of the Garden.

This meaning of the word ¨alimeen الظالمين is supported by the next verse that says that the Shaytan “got them out from the state [of comfort] in which they had been.” Also the verse 20:117 supports this interpretation: “O Adam! this [shaytan] is an enemy to you and your wife. So do not let him expel you from the Garden, otherwise you will be uncomfortable: in it [i.e., the Garden] you shall neither be hungry nor naked, and you shall neither be thirsty therein nor struck by the sun's rays.” In other words, here food, clothing and shelter are readily provided for you; you will lose these comforts on the earth. Here everything is provided but there you will have to work for yourselves.

Second: the word عَصَى means “disobeyed”. This does not necessarily imply sin because disobedience can be attributed to two types of commands: al- amr al-mawlawi (a legislative command) or al-amr al-irshadi (an advisory command). If a person goes against the advisory command, then he has “disobeyed” but not “sinned”. We have already explained that commands of Allah do not always have the force of obligation or prohibition. And, by keeping in mind those verses which prove the 'ismah, we have no choice but to interpret this word as “disobeyed the advisory command”.

 

Third: Similarly, the word غَوَى means “he erred”. But this does not necessarily mean sin. It can easily be applied to at-tarku 'l-awla which is possible for a prophet to do. At-tarku 'l-awla (ترك الأولى) means “leaving the more appropriate behaviour”. “Adam erred” would mean that even if the command of Allah did not carry the force of legislative prohibition, still Adam should have obeyed it. In disregarding the advisory command of Allah, Adam is guilty not of a sin but of not living up to the appropriate behaviour which is expected from a prophet or messenger of God.

 

5. If Adam did not commit a sin, then why does Allah talk about repentance for Adam and forgiveness from Himself, and uses so strong words as الظالمين and عصى etc?

 

Firstly, When a prophet like Adam commits at-tarku 'l-awla, it is quite appropriate for him to ask Allah for pardon—not necessarily for a sin but for an inappropriate behaviour. So “repenting” does not necessarily mean that Adam must have committed a sin; it is quite appropriate rather advisable even after committing at-tarku 'l-awla.

 

 

Secondly, the use of harsh words by Allah in describing the story of Adam is acceptable by keeping in mind the status of Adam. Although Adam did not commit a sin, it was improper for him to adopt an inappropriate behaviour. The people with high ranks are expected to live by the standard that is higher than that of the normal human beings. As the saying goes: the virtuous deeds of the pious are considered 'sins' by those who are nearest to God — hasanâtu 'l-abrâr sayyi'âtu 'l-muqarrabin.

 

 

After then you Quoted the following Out of Context:

 

 

 

The other position—which seems to be the correct one of the two—is that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when committing the deed in question, for Jibra`il would visit him and the visitation of Jibra`il indicates prophethood, for he does not visit anyone but prophets. This point is strengthened by the fact that Allah (awj) taught Adam (ع) all the “names” and it was only he that knew them and not even the angels had that knowledge. On that account, Adam (ع) was appointed teacher to the angels, bestowing to them the knowledge of the “names”. All these incidents were prior to Adam’s (ع) eating from the forbidden tree. Hence, it can be inferred that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when he committed the deed in question.

http://www.al-islam....in-adam-and-eve

 

 

Brother, And whats  your point? I have no Problem with this? please Brother use your logic and read the Whole answer, and then come to a Judgement:

 

 

In reply to the above question, three issues must be examined. However, it is necessary to note the fact that the absolute infallibility of the infallibles (ع)—i.e., the prophets and the Imams—is the consequence of their luminous and lofty spiritual and existential stations in the order of existence. They are the hidden rays of Divine effusion; the perfect manifestations and the clear signs of the Beauty and Majesty of the Truth. The clay of their bodies and the form of their souls were moulded by both of the Divine arms—i.e., Divine Beauty and Majesty—and so they were taught the reality of the Divine Names and Attributes in pre-eternity in the world of the Unseen. They have always enjoyed the friendship of God, the Exalted; they see themselves in the perpetual presence of God, and it is precisely this sense of presence that precludes the committing of sin, although they are still capable of it.

As regards the question of the infallibility of the prophets (ع), there are conflicting views among Muslim sects. However the main positions can be organized into five groups:

1. The prophets (ع) are infallible vis-à-vis the major sins but might commit the minor sins. Moreover, they are bestowed with infallibility at reaching adulthood. This is the view espoused by the majority of the Mu’tazilites.

2. They are infallible vis-à-vis the deliberate perpetration of sin but are prone to the inadvertent commission of sin. Moreover, the prophets are bestowed with infallibility after being appointed to prophethood. This view is held by Abu ‘Ali Jiba`i.

3. The prophets are infallible vis-à-vis all sins except those committed inadvertently. They will, however, be punished for such sins, although the common folk are not liable in such cases. This discrepancy is due to the height of the prophets’ spiritual station. This view is embraced by Nazzam and those who follow his school of thought.

4. Prophets are susceptible to the commission of sin, any type of sin, whether major or minor, and whether intentional or unintentional. This is the view embraced by Hashawiyyah and a number of the traditionalists (ahl al-hadith).

5. Prophets are absolutely infallible in regard to all types of sin, whether major or minor, and whether intentional or unintentional. This is the view espoused by the Imamiyyah, the Shi’ites. According to the Shi’ite school of thought, the prophets are endowed with infallibility even before they are appointed to prophethood. The only negative deed that they might perform is acting in opposition to what is encouraged (but not mandatory) or what is more meritorious.

The Imamiyyah support their belief by a number of arguments, three of which will be mentioned here.

1. If they were to commit sins that would indicate their inferiority to the lowest of people, as the knowledge which they possess of the Creator is not available to others. Hence, considering the knowledge which has been bestowed to them regarding Allah (awj) and the reality of sin and disobedience to the command of the Lord—if they were to sin, they would be the most sordid of sinners.

2. The commission of sin by the prophets would pose a dilemma to the believers. For, as Divine messengers they aught to be obeyed, but as sinners, their obedience would not be permissible. Thus such a scenario would entail the coincidence of obligation and prohibition, i.e., the concurrence of two opposites, which is impossible.

3. The purpose of the Divine mission of the prophets is to serve as exemplars to be obeyed, to instruct their societies, and to dissuade the believers from sin. If the commission of sin be possible for the prophets that would translate into their people’s lack of trust in them—a trust which is necessary in order to advance their mission, hence defeating the purpose of their mission. And such is unbecoming and thus impossible in respect to the Wise Lord.

The infallibility of the prophets and the Imams (ع) derives from their complete knowledge and direct witness of the unseen realities (which is due to their Divinely inspired theoretical intellects) which prevents them from committing sin (and this aspect can be attributed to their Divinely reinforced practical intellects). In this light it becomes clear that their infallibility is a volitional matter due to their Divine knowledge of what is permissible and what is not and of vice and virtue.

The second issue is the location of Adams’s (ع) residence prior to his banishment to earth. Was it the promised Paradise of the Hereafter or a terrestrial heaven? Some are of the opinion that it was the promised Paradise. Although Paradise does not accommodate obligation, but this does not pose a problem in the case of Adam and Eve (ع), for the eternal residence in Paradise is the result of acquired eligibility, which was lacking in their case.

But there are several problems with this view. Firstly, if he resided in Paradise which does not accommodate obligation, then why does the Qur`an state that he disobeyed Allah (awj)? And how was Satan capable of disobedience? Secondly, if it were Paradise, then Satan would not have had access to it? Thirdly, the consumption of all the bounties of Paradise is permissible and Allah (awj) does not prohibit anything there, while Adam (ع) had been prohibited from eating the fruit of the forbidden tree.

Therefore, it seems that the correct view is that he was in a terrestrial paradise. This view is actually substantiated by hadiths which specify that it was a garden in this world, pointing out that Adam and Eve (ع) would even witness the setting of the sun and the moon. There are however contradicting hadiths indicating that the place of their residence was in a heavenly location. This contention is corroborated by the usage of the word hubut in speaking of the banishment, which denotes descending from a higher level to a lower level.

The third issue is in regard to Adam and Eve’s (ع) deed: whether they committed a sin or not? There are three positions on this question, two of which are the more important. The first position is that, firstly, it was a minor sin, and secondly, it preceded Adam’s (ع) prophethood, and hence the station of prophethood was not violated. Several reasons have been cited in support of this position, among them: the verses that deal with this issue clearly indicate the sinful nature of the deed, for the word ‘isyan occurs in them, which in the Qur`an is employed only in the sense of sin. Moreover, there is no reason to believe that the command addressed to Adam prohibiting the consumption of the fruit in question (“la taqraba”) was an advisory warning. And furthermore, it does not make sense that Adam (ع) repented on account of disregarding an advice.

The other position—which seems to be the correct one of the two—is that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when committing the deed in question, for Jibra`il would visit him and the visitation of Jibra`il indicates prophethood, for he does not visit anyone but prophets. This point is strengthened by the fact that Allah (awj) taught Adam (ع) all the “names” and it was only he that knew them and not even the angels had that knowledge. On that account, Adam (ع) was appointed teacher to the angels, bestowing to them the knowledge of the “names”. All these incidents were prior to Adam’s (ع) eating from the forbidden tree. Hence, it can be inferred that Adam (ع) was in fact a prophet when he committed the deed in question.

The problem is that according to the Shi’a school of thought, prophets are absolutely infallible and are even free of minor sins. Thus, the prohibition must be interpreted as an advisory warning and so Adam’s (ع) guilt was neglecting that which was more meritorious. But since prophets are at a high station of Divine knowledge, they are guilty even in the case of neglecting what is more meritorious. This is witnessed also in the stories of Yunus (ع) (when he became angry with his tribe and lost all hope in guiding them and so abandoned them without asking permission from Allah (awj), whereat Allah (awj) confined him to the belly of a whale, where if he had not become contrite and repented, he would have remained till the Day of Judgment)1 and Yusuf (ع) (when he sought help from an inmate instead of Allah (awj) for deliverance from prison).

Although it should be noted that neglecting the more meritorious of deeds does not warrant punishment in the case of the ordinary people, for “The righteous deeds of the good folk are the sins of those brought nigh to Him.” It is for this reason that the midnight prayer was obligatory for the Prophet while it was an encouraged act for everyone else. It is thus that the laypeople’s performance of rituals, which is fraught with distraction and negligence, is inappropriate in the case of the prophets of Allah (awj).

According to this position, ‘isyan must be construed as “opposing the word of the Lord”. “Word” could either apply to what is obligatory or otherwise something just encouraged. Hence, the claim that the usage of ‘isyan in the sense of ignoring that which is encouraged is inaccurate loses ground. Furthermore if in fact ‘isyan literally denotes disobeying a command, in this case because of the presence of irrefutable proofs it must be interpreted accordingly.

The word ghawa in the verse in question2 denotes harm and loss, for if Adam (ع) had abstained from eating from the forbidden tree, he would have deserved a great reward. And repentance in his case was not for redressing a sin, rather for a deed that was unbecoming of his status. This must be complemented by the fact that repentance is not always for rectifying a sin. It is, however, always efficacious in severing the chains of bondage to other than Allah (awj), thus meriting a great reward, although one might not be sinful.

But as regards to why he was not banned from consuming the forbidden tree after banishment or as to whether he regained his original status, first the meaning of the “tree” and its consumption must be understood. There are two possibilities as to the meaning of the “tree”: It was either a concrete plant—such as wheat, fig, camphor, etc.—or a spiritual reality. In the latter case, it could not have been the “tree of knowledge” as some have contended, for he was the most knowledgeable creature after Allah (awj), to the extent that he became the teacher of the angels.

Another possibility is that it was the tree of jealousy, which would have to be understood as an inclination toward a positive thing owned by someone else, not the prevalent form of jealousy, for it would be in conflict with the status of prophethood. It has been suggested that his jealousy was in seeing the status of the Prophet of Islam, ‘Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn (ع) and realizing his inferiority. This is a more likely possibility as jealousy is even now a detestable trait condemned by God. It has been stated in a hadith that jealousy devours one’s faith even as fire consumes a cotton ball.

If however the “tree” refers to a concrete tree, it must be said that it is not wrong for the ruling on a subject to be different in differing times and locations. For instance, in the very early years of Islam, Muslims were directed to pray facing Jerusalem. That changed later on and they were commanded to pray facing the Ka’bah.

Or consider the case of consuming the corpse of an animal not slain according to the prescribed rite, where in normal circumstances it is forbidden while it has been allowed—or depending on the case obligated—in the case of an emergency to save a starving person from death. To turn back to the story of Adam (ع), eating from the forbidden tree was prohibited in that particular time and place but permissible at other times and locations. Furthermore, if Adam (ع) was banished to earth, it was as the direct result of eating from that tree, and so that deed was injurious only in the celestial realm and not on earth.

We would like to close this essay by noting that if the dear readers are interested; this topic can be pursued at a higher level.

 

In order to arrive at the answer, a few preliminary points must be considered. It must first be pointed out that the Divine prophets and their deputies enjoy lofty spiritual and existential stations in the order of existence. They are the hidden rays of Divine effusion; the complete manifestations and clear signs of the Beauty and Majesty of the Truth. The clay of their bodies and the forms of their souls were moulded by the might of both of the Divine arms—Beauty and Majesty—and were taught the reality of the Divine Names and Attributes in the pre-eternal world of the Unseen.

The second point that must be addressed is in regard to the question of infallibility. There are a range of views in this regard, among them:

1. They are infallible vis-à-vis the major sins but are vulnerable to the minor sins;

2. They are vulnerable to both major and minor sins;

3. They do not commit sins intentionally but may do so by mistake;

4. They are absolutely infallible.

The final view, which is the correct one, is that of the Shi’a and is supported by a variety of reasons, one of which is that if they were vulnerable to sin, it would defy the purpose of their mission, for in that case the masses would not be willing to trust and follow them; such a scenario runs contrary to the wisdom of the Omniscient Lord.

Now the cause of their infallibility is their all-encompassing knowledge of obedience and disobedience, of what is permitted and what is forbidden, and generally speaking of vice and virtue (or in a word, their theoretical intellect) that keeps them from sinning (which is carried out by the faculty of the practical intellect).

A relevant question in the context of Adam’s (ع) sin is where Adam (ع) resided before banishment. It could not have been the promised Paradise; for, firstly, as asserted in the Divine Text leaving Paradise is not possible; secondly, Satan is not allowed in Paradise, and finally, there are no restrictions on the consumption of any fruit in Paradise.

The last point meriting mention in this context is in regard to the nature of Adam’s (ع) error. One of the posited explanations is that it was not a sin but a neglect of what was more meritorious (tark awla); for, firstly, prophets are infallible; secondly, considering the lofty station of the prophets, it would not be inappropriate for them to be upbraided on account of neglecting what is more meritorious—hence, the adage, “The righteous deeds of the good folk are the sins of those brought nigh to Him;” thirdly, neglecting the more meritorious has in fact occurred among the prophets—as in the story of Yunus (ع)—and so is a likely possibility.

But as to the question of why Adam and Eve (ع) were not forbidden from the consumption of the forbidden fruit on earth as they were in the Garden of Eden, there are several possible explanations. It is possible that the forbidden tree was an actual tree, a plant, the consumption of which entailed banishment from the heavenly life that they were enjoying, and as such there would have been no reason for the prohibition of that tree on earth. And as elucidated in the appropriate place, religious directives vary based on location, time, and other particular circumstances.

Another possibility is that the tree in question was a spiritual reality. In this case, that tree was either the tree of knowledge, which is of course not defensible as it is contradictory to definitive Qur`anic and traditional principles. For, as related in the Qur`an, Adam (ع) was not only not restricted in the acquisition of knowledge but in fact he was taught all the “names” thus becoming the teacher of the angels.

Another possibility is that the tree is a metaphorical allusion to the trait of envy. Of course since Adam (ع) was a messenger of God, the envy in question should be construed as a sort of longing, possibly a longing for the spiritual station of the Prophet of Islam, ‘Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn (ع). Also in this context it may refer to the condemnation of jealousy before entering this world.

 

 

 

 

Statement:

Again you have evaded my questions.  I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25: “So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.” Firstly you said dawud a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness can you explain this. Also then why did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him. If he a.s asked for protection?? Dawud a.s obviously done something that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave. What was it?? Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì just never said it randomly in the quran paak that "we forgave him that", so I'm asking what did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him.

 

I think I Said this Earlier, All prophets know The Unseen and between whats wrong and whats right even at the Situation ob being tested. Here Dawud (a.s) After his Realization he Knew he should have made a Justice in that time, and so he asks Allah for forgiveness for his action, but not that it was false, but due to his late realization of what was the 'Better' option. This is the lesson, Allah Teaches Dawud (a.s) and this is How Allah Taught all of his Prophets (peace be upon them All) by test and Revelation of the truth, but keep in mind its impossible Allah would make them sin during that test, because how would such a man become a prophet and a guide for the people? would I follow a person we has the Ability just as I to commit sin? this is Invalid my dear friend. So Repentance does mean it 'Only' Comes after Sin, it can also come from Regret, Realization, Defeat, not knowing, doing something unwillingly, Forced, Anger, Intention and so on. Therefore Initially no Mistake in the means of a Sin, has being committed. And Sin is when is something against the commandments of Allah, which no prophet would do. I asked a Question before, which you Ignored also  If your saying that he made a mistake, Please answer me this, In a real life situation When the social Justice Order (such as Police, Court, Criminal Investigation) When they get hold of Hard evidence against the wanted subject, they usually go to him and arrest him straight away, since they have clear evidence. Do you Consider this wrong? 

 

 

 

Statement:

Just to finish this reply id like to say that a prophet is a prophet from the start, as soon as he takes his first breath this is a sunni shia believe. Only Wahabbies claim that prophets are only prophets after they claim to be prophets. Please do not bring wahabbi beliefs here. 

 

(1) First of all I am not bringing any Wahabbi Believes, please respect your self and respect others, and no Trolling Sarcasm will do just fine. Do you first know what is the Definition of a Prophet ? he is a messenger assigned on earth and not the heavens. Adam (a.s) was in the Heavens, and was not a prophet Until Allah has sent him down to earth. Any Muslim would know this brother.

(2) Stop Manipulating my Words, I never said the he became a prophet when he "Declared it", I said when Adam was sent down to earth.

(3) No need for a baseless Argument. 

 

 

(wasalam)

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You cannot claim I am wrong then simply put a Explanation as if your view as been accept. I am afraid your explanation is Invalid. First of all we read in Chapter 2 (al-Baqarah) verses 30-39:

When your Lord said to the angels, “I am going to place a vicegerent on the earth,” the angels said, “Will You place on the earth the one who shall act wickedly in it and shed blood; whereas we sing Your praise and glorify You?” Allah said, “Surely I know what you do not know.”

And [after creating Adam] Allah taught Adam all the names. Then He presented those to the angels and said, “Tell me the names of these if you are true [in what your assumption that you are more superior than Adam].” They said, “Glory be to You! We have no knowledge except what You have taught us. You are surely the All-Knowing, the Wise.” [Then] He said, “O Adam! Tell them the names of those [persons].” When Adam told them those names, Allah said [to the angels], “Didn't I say to you that I know the unseen things of the heavens and the earth, and I know what you manifest and what you hide.”

And [remember] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam.” All of them prostrated except Iblis, who refused and was haughty, and [thus] he became one of the unbelievers.

In Paradise:

[After creating Hawwa}, We said, “O Adam, Dwell you and your wife in the Garden and eat from it [freely] as many [things] as you wish; but do not approach this tree, otherwise you will become one of the ¨alimeen اَلظَّالِمِيْنَ .”

But the Shaytan made them slip (اَزَلَّهُما) from that [Garden by luring them to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree] and thus got them out from the state [of felicity] in which they had been.

So We said [to Adam, Hawwa, and the Shaytan that, “All of you] get down [from the Garden to the earth] some of you being the enemies of the other, and there is on the earth your abode and the necessities [of life] for a [fixed period of] time.” [Adam felt ashamed and intended to ask Allah's forgiveness.] So Adam learnt some words from his Lord, and Allah turned to him mercifully (تَابَ عَلَيْهِ). Surely He is the Most- Forgiving, the Merciful. We said, “All of you get down from the Garden. [Once you are on the earth], a guidance will certainly come to you from Me: whosoever follows My guidance, there will be no fear for them nor shall they grieve. But those who disbelieve and reject Our revelation, they are the inmates of the Fire, in it they shall abide.”

We read in Chapter 7 (al-A'râf) verses 19-25

[Allah said,] “O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Garden and eat from wherever you wish; but do not approach this tree, otherwise you will become one of the ¨alimeen اَلظَّالِمِيْنَ”

Then the Shaytan instilled temptation into them so as to reveal to them their private parts that were hidden from them. He said, “Your Lord has only prohibited you from this tree lest you both become rulers, or lest you become immortals.” [To ensure that his temptation will work, the Shaytan] swore to them both that, “Truly, I am a sincere adviser for you.” Thus he misled them by delusion.

So when they tasted [the fruit of] the tree, their private parts became manifest to them, and both of them started to cover themselves with the leaves of the Garden. Their Lord called out to them, “Did I not prohibit both of you from this tree and say to you that the Shaytan is your open enemy?”

They said, “Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves (¨alamna ظلمنا أنفُسَنا); and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, we shall surely be among the losers.”

Allah said, “Get down [to the earth], some of you being the enemies of the others; and there is on the earth your abode and necessities [of life] for a time.” He said, “Therein you shall live, therein you shall die, and from it you shall be raised [again].”

Chapter 20 (Ta Ha) verses 116-126

And [remember] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam,” all of them prostrated except Iblis who refused and was haughty.

Therefore, We said, “O Adam! this [shaytan] is an enemy to you and your wife. So do not let him expel you from the Garden, otherwise you will be uncomfortable (تشقى): in it [i.e., the Garden] you shall neither be hungry nor naked, and you shall neither be thirsty therein nor struck by the sun's rays.”

But the Shaytan instilled temptation to him by saying, “O Adam! Shall I guide you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not decline?” When [they] both ate of that tree, their private parts became manifest to them and both of them started to cover themselves with the leaves of the Garden.

Adam disobeyed (عَصى ) his Lord, and so he erred (غوى). Then his Lord chose him, and then He turned to him and guided him.

[Then] Allah said [to Shaytan and Adam], “You both get down from this [Garden}, some of you being the enemies of the other. [On the earth], a guidance will certainly come to you from Me, and then whosoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor will he be unhappy. But whosoever turns away from My reminder, then he shall surely have a wretched life and we shall resurrect him blind.”

_______________

1. According to the experts of Islamic jurisprudence, the orders given by Allah are of two types:

Al-amr al-mawlawi, a legislative command. Such orders must be implemented; and, if someone disobeys such a command, then he is committing a sin and is liable to be punished. For example, the command to “say the daily prayers” or “do not eat the pork” is of such nature. Neglecting the daily prayers or eating of the pork is a sin and Allah can rightly punish the sinner.

Al-amr al-irshadi, an advisory command. Such orders are of advisory nature; their purpose is to inform the people about its consequences. However, if someone disobeys such an order, then he is not committing a sin; of course, he will have to face the consequences of not following the advice. For example, the command to “saybismillah when you slaughter the chicken” is of advisory nature.

Now, if someone slaughters the chicken and neglects the saying of “bismillah,” then has he committed a sin? No, he has not committed a sin nor is he liable for a punishment for not saying the “bismillah” at that time. However, he will lose the right to eat that chicken; that chicken cannot be eaten by a Muslim.

Another example: a person comes to his doctor complaining of cough. The doctor advises his patient to drink a certain medicine, a cough syrup. Now if the patient ignores that advice, then he is not committing a sin or a crime; but he will surely suffer the consequence — his illness will be prolonged and his health might deteriorate.

Conclusion: not all commands of Allah are of obligatory or prohibitive nature. The advice given to Adam and Hawwa was not of the legislative nature. It was not that that particular tree and its fruit themselves were forbidden. The prohibition of going near that tree and eating its fruit was al-amr al-irshadi. And going against such an order is not a sin; at most, the doer will have to face the consequences of ignoring that advice. In case of Adam and his wife, the consequence they faced was cancellation of their tenure as guests of Allah in the Paradise and its comforts. Remember that they were not supposed to stay in the Paradise forever; they were created for the earth, and their stay in the Paradise was meant to be temporary.

2. The Garden/Paradise is not the place for test and trial. It is this earth on which human beings have been destined to go through test and trial by obeying the commands of Allah. The concept of sinning in case of human beings is connected to the worldly life.

In the story of Adam itself, Allah makes this point clear when He orders Adam to go to the earth—He said,

“You both get down from this [Garden], some of you being the enemies of the other. [On the earth], aguidance will certainly come to you from Me, and then whosoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor will he be unhappy. But whosoever turns away from My reminder, then he shall surely have a wretched life and we shall resurrect him blind.” (20:126)

The order given to Adam in Heaven is not same as the orders given to human beings in this world—it is disobedience of the orders given on this earth that constitutes sin.

Finally, the Shaytan himself knows that he does not have the power to mislead the prophets, the messengers, and those who are graced with purity by Almighty Himself. When he was given respite by Allah, he declared the following:

“So I swear by Your Might (O Lord) that I will surely mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Yours from among them.” (38:82-3; 15:39-40)

And Allah responds to him by saying,

“…As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people…” (15:41)

The Satan himself knew the limitation of his influence upon the chosen servants of Allah in this world.

3. Those who believe that Adam committed a sin, describe the eating of the forbidden fruit as the “sin” and Adam's expulsion from the heaven as the “punishment”. However, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:

Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allah had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit, Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after Allah “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”—Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam's coming to the earth was not a “punishment”; and eating was not a “sin”.

4. What about the words in the story Adam that imply that he committed sin?

After studying the issue of 'ismah from the Qur'anic point of view, if we come across such words we have to interpret them in a way that they are in harmony with the other verses of the Qur'an. Now let us look at three such words that have occurred in the story of Adam.

First: the word ”¨alimeen الظالمين" is from ¨ulm ظلم. This word has four meanings: Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã to put something in a wrong place; (.B ) to oppress; © to make haste; and (d) to come to harm.

We see that the last two meanings of the word are in harmony with what we explained about 'ismah. For example, verse 2:35 would read like this:

We said, “O Adam, Dwell you and your wife in the Garden and eat from it [freely] as many [things] as you wish; but do not approach this tree, otherwise you will be one of those who put themselves into harm.”

Here, “harm” would mean facing the difficulties of the earthly life and losing the comforts of the heaven.

or

"…otherwise, you will be one of those who make haste.” Here, “making haste” would mean that they were eventually to go to the earth but by eating from the forbidden tree they hastened their departure to a place where they will lose the comforts of the Garden.

This meaning of the word ¨alimeen الظالمين is supported by the next verse that says that the Shaytan “got them out from the state [of comfort] in which they had been.” Also the verse 20:117 supports this interpretation: “O Adam! this [shaytan] is an enemy to you and your wife. So do not let him expel you from the Garden, otherwise you will be uncomfortable: in it [i.e., the Garden] you shall neither be hungry nor naked, and you shall neither be thirsty therein nor struck by the sun's rays.” In other words, here food, clothing and shelter are readily provided for you; you will lose these comforts on the earth. Here everything is provided but there you will have to work for yourselves.

Second: the word عَصَى means “disobeyed”. This does not necessarily imply sin because disobedience can be attributed to two types of commands: al- amr al-mawlawi (a legislative command) or al-amr al-irshadi (an advisory command). If a person goes against the advisory command, then he has “disobeyed” but not “sinned”. We have already explained that commands of Allah do not always have the force of obligation or prohibition. And, by keeping in mind those verses which prove the 'ismah, we have no choice but to interpret this word as “disobeyed the advisory command”.

Third: Similarly, the word غَوَى means “he erred”. But this does not necessarily mean sin. It can easily be applied to at-tarku 'l-awla which is possible for a prophet to do. At-tarku 'l-awla (ترك الأولى) means “leaving the more appropriate behaviour”. “Adam erred” would mean that even if the command of Allah did not carry the force of legislative prohibition, still Adam should have obeyed it. In disregarding the advisory command of Allah, Adam is guilty not of a sin but of not living up to the appropriate behaviour which is expected from a prophet or messenger of God.

5. If Adam did not commit a sin, then why does Allah talk about repentance for Adam and forgiveness from Himself, and uses so strong words as الظالمين and عصى etc?

Firstly, When a prophet like Adam commits at-tarku 'l-awla, it is quite appropriate for him to ask Allah for pardon—not necessarily for a sin but for an inappropriate behaviour. So “repenting” does not necessarily mean that Adam must have committed a sin; it is quite appropriate rather advisable even after committing at-tarku 'l-awla.

Secondly, the use of harsh words by Allah in describing the story of Adam is acceptable by keeping in mind the status of Adam. Although Adam did not commit a sin, it was improper for him to adopt an inappropriate behaviour. The people with high ranks are expected to live by the standard that is higher than that of the normal human beings. As the saying goes: the virtuous deeds of the pious are considered 'sins' by those who are nearest to God — hasanâtu 'l-abrâr sayyi'âtu 'l-muqarrabin.

After then you Quoted the following Out of Context:

Brother, And whats your point? I have no Problem with this? please Brother use your logic and read the Whole answer, and then come to a Judgement:

Statement:

Again you have evaded my questions. I'm not asking you whether dawud a.s judges with total truth, i totally agree with you on this stance. What I'm saying is that if as you claim dawud a.s did not know that it was mandatory at all times to listen to both sides he obviously never committed a mistake, because like you said earlier on in your posts making an unintentional mistake is not a mistake or a sin so I'm asking you regarding verse 25: “So We forgave him that and verily for him, with Us is a nearness and an excellent resort.” Firstly you said dawud a.s asked for protection and not forgiveness can you explain this. Also then why did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him. If he a.s asked for protection?? Dawud a.s obviously done something that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave. What was it?? Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì just never said it randomly in the quran paak that "we forgave him that", so I'm asking what did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgive him.

I think I Said this Earlier, All prophets know The Unseen and between whats wrong and whats right even at the Situation ob being tested. Here Dawud (a.s) After his Realization he Knew he should have made a Justice in that time, and so he asks Allah for forgiveness for his action, but not that it was false, but due to his late realization of what was the 'Better' option. This is the lesson, Allah Teaches Dawud (a.s) and this is How Allah Taught all of his Prophets (peace be upon them All) by test and Revelation of the truth, but keep in mind its impossible Allah would make them sin during that test, because how would such a man become a prophet and a guide for the people? would I follow a person we has the Ability just as I to commit sin? this is Invalid my dear friend. So Repentance does mean it 'Only' Comes after Sin, it can also come from Regret, Realization, Defeat, not knowing, doing something unwillingly, Forced, Anger, Intention and so on. Therefore Initially no Mistake in the means of a Sin, has being committed. And Sin is when is something against the commandments of Allah, which no prophet would do. I asked a Question before, which you Ignored also If your saying that he made a mistake, Please answer me this, In a real life situation When the social Justice Order (such as Police, Court, Criminal Investigation) When they get hold of Hard evidence against the wanted subject, they usually go to him and arrest him straight away, since they have clear evidence. Do you Consider this wrong?

Statement:

Just to finish this reply id like to say that a prophet is a prophet from the start, as soon as he takes his first breath this is a sunni shia believe. Only Wahabbies claim that prophets are only prophets after they claim to be prophets. Please do not bring wahabbi beliefs here.

(1) First of all I am not bringing any Wahabbi Believes, please respect your self and respect others, and no Trolling Sarcasm will do just fine. Do you first know what is the Definition of a Prophet ? he is a messenger assigned on earth and not the heavens. Adam (a.s) was in the Heavens, and was not a prophet Until Allah has sent him down to earth. Any Muslim would know this brother.

(2) Stop Manipulating my Words, I never said the he became a prophet when he "Declared it", I said when Adam was sent down to earth.

(3) No need for a baseless Argument.

(wasalam)

Re read my reply and cut down on the long copy and paste. Then reply back to me with a quick answer regarding your stance and not with mixed views ie; this scholar said this and that scholar said that etc answer me directly and stop saying baseless argument. Reply to my answer directly and also tell me why you refuse to accept clear proofs even from your own ayatollah

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Re read my reply and cut down on the long copy and paste. Then reply back to me with a quick answer regarding your stance and not with mixed views ie; this scholar said this and that scholar said that etc answer me directly and stop saying baseless argument. Reply to my answer directly and also tell me why you refuse to accept clear proofs even from your own ayatollah

 

 

 

(1) brother your being very Ignorant, I quoted from the same Article your Quoted from and Look at his Conclusion Who said I refused Anything? Please use your common sense.

(2) I gave An Answer Was it not good enough to read?  

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(1) brother your being very Ignorant, I quoted from the same Article your Quoted from and Look at his Conclusion Who said I refused Anything? Please use your common sense.

(2) I gave An Answer Was it not good enough to read?

Like I said reply to my answer directly and stop bringing me mixed views. Your opinion is different to what shia believe. Re read the article and reply to me why you disregard my answer. Jibreel a.s used to visit adam a.s and jibril a.s only vusits prophets. Adam a.s had more knowledge than angels and if he was just a "normal" being why did Allah (swt) teach him all this and make him a teacher to the angels.

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I am a Muslim! I try with all my heart to subscribe to the proclamation of the oneness of the Almighty and His last servant and Messenger. I try to pray the obligatory prayers, when I am in a position I fast, pay alms and one day I hope to visit the place where our beloved Leader (saws) lost his life insha-Allah. I have spent the better part of 3 hours reading through these posts. And I have one question: do you love each other? I am humbled to have learnt so much from all of you. Indeed for many years I had no knowledge of this division for me Islam was one and even after reading this it remains so. This "he said she said he did he didnt" divisive tactics that you have allowed to infiltrate such a beautiful intricate pure and perfect system is what caused the division not the companions or ahlul bayt of our beloved Rasool (saws) it is HU MAN! Again do you love each other?

 

From the little reading I have done and the even less knowledge I have, I realised one thing there is value on both sides of the divide and there are common focal points on either side, but as has sadly become our nature we focus almost exclusively on the negative, the points of divergence as opposed to the points of confluence. Can you imagine this ummah would have united as opposed to the division that exists? I suppose the question begs, will you be prepared for that?

 

I LOVE YOU ALL if only to please He who created me from sperm. Slimy icky disgusting sperm is where I am from and so are you and I LOVE YOU ALL!

Allah hu a'lam.

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Like I said reply to my answer directly and stop bringing me mixed views. Your opinion is different to what shia believe. Re read the article and reply to me why you disregard my answer. Jibreel a.s used to visit adam a.s and jibril a.s only vusits prophets. Adam a.s had more knowledge than angels and if he was just a "normal" being why did Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì teach him all this and make him a teacher to the angels.

 

 

(1) How is My opinion Different? I gave a Clear Answer? What won't you dear Quote what I say above?

(2) When Did Gabiral start Visiting Adam? In the Heavens or earth?

(3) Prophthood is the person who is the Messenger of God to the people, If your Saying he was a prophet in the heavens, Who are the people he is trying to guide?

Being a prophet at one times, and having Knowledge through on out, Does not make a Difference in being Infallibility (during the Time of  " being " a prophet.)    

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(1) How is My opinion Different? I gave a Clear Answer? What won't you dear Quote what I say above?

(2) When Did Gabiral start Visiting Adam? In the Heavens or earth?

(3) Prophthood is the person who is the Messenger of God to the people, If your Saying he was a prophet in the heavens, Who are the people he is trying to guide?

Being a prophet at one times, and having Knowledge through on out, Does not make a Difference in being Infallibility (during the Time of " being " a prophet.)

The ISLAMIC history before you turn to ignorance read the link I left you properly.

Secondly your answer three is pathetic and ignorant. Ok if adam a.s was a prophet when he came to earth and not before then who was he a prophet to when he came to earth??

Also if dawud a.s was not a prophet before coming to earth how and why did he have more knowledge than angels.

Read the article properly the ayatollah says jibril a.s used to visit adam a.s before he ate from tree which is a sign if prophethood

Stop playing ignorant and start reading

Edited by Just the truth

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The ISLAMIC history before you turn to ignorance read the link I left you properly.

Secondly your answer three is pathetic and ignorant. Ok if adam a.s was a prophet when he came to earth and not before then who was he a prophet to when he came to earth??

Also if dawud a.s was not a prophet before coming to earth how and why did he have more knowledge than angels.

Read the article properly the ayatollah says jibril a.s used to visit adam a.s before he ate from tree which is a sign if prophethood

Stop playing ignorant and start reading

 

 

Dear brother, I seek Refuge from Allah, If I ever Turn into an Ignorant and May Allah guide me and you on the right path. You Constantly Ignored my responses and constantly you have being Taking things out of Context, you have no manners what so ever as your saying "your Ayatollah's" Dear brother Before you start going into the direction of Anger, let me Inform you what Ayatollah is. it is simply a High rank in Scholar Status, for example you have the Shieikh or sayed with his well made Turban  Who reads on the "mem'bar" and gives a lecture like all people, these people have studied in "Hawza" which is Where our Islamic Studies engage in. In Such "Hawzas" there are many Classes, such as knowledge of Quran, Ahkla'aq (Manners), Irfa'an (philosophy), Islamic History, Fiqh, narration Science and much more which I cannot Remember at the moment but if you would like to know more on this here is a PDF to read through (clickHere). So Usually Some people spend their Entire life almost 12-20 years even 30 In these Studies and have reached a High Rank and So they Are titled with such a title and people who go through their books have trust in them and ask them Concerning Jurisprudence issues we face in our Day to Day lives. In Both Sects In Sunni and Shia have high Ranked Scholars and they are named Differently, so Perhaps you need to lessen your Commotion on this issue and take it easy, In All sects no matter where you go there will be always an Extremist group, so do not Relate their beliefs to ours. Your false claim that my Beliefs are different to the Shia is Incorrect I have stated everything from our school of thought. I may have erred in some posts, but latter I fixed them and apologized Sincerely. If I have made any errors, then May Allah forgive me. As for what you have said Concerning Prophet Adam (a.s) I read very Well, And I Disagree, as we all must know that Prophet Adam (a.s) was not a prophet when he was in the Heavens, Only when he was brought to earth he became a prophet (peace be upon him) Read :

 

“You both get down from this [Garden], some of you being the enemies of the other. [On the earth], aguidance will certainly come to you from Me, and then whosoever follows My guidance, he shall not go astray nor will he be unhappy. But whosoever turns away from My reminder, then he shall surely have a wretched life and we shall resurrect him blind.” (20:126) 

 

The Law of the Heavens Differ to the Laws of Earth, We being a prophet is to be a Hujja on the people on earth, to be a Sign of Allah on earth and no Sign of Allah can make an error, if they did, how do you expect the people to accept their message? How would you be able to Distinguish between the prophet and the people? Any being has the Capacity to become 'Infallible; By his own free will, So if prophets made mistakes how would you be able to Distinguish between them? But the prophets are in the manner and in the state of being 'Impossible to Sin' because they Solely act accordance to the Law of Allah.  The order given to Adam in Heaven is not same as the orders given to human beings in this world—it is disobedience of the orders given on this earth that constitutes sin. Finally, the Shaytan himself knows that he does not have the power to mislead the prophets, the messengers, and those who are graced with purity by Almighty Himself. When he was given respite by Allah, he declared the following:  

 

 

 

“So I swear by Your Might (O Lord) that I will surely mislead them all together except the devoted servants of Yours from among them.” (38:82-3; 15:39-40)

 

And Allah responds to him by saying,

 

“…As for my servants, you have no power over them except those who follow you from among the misled people…” (15:41)

 

The Satan himself knew the limitation of his influence upon the chosen servants of Allah in this world.

 

 

Those who believe that Adam committed a sin, describe the eating of the forbidden fruit as the “sin” and Adam's expulsion from the heaven as the “punishment”. However, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:

 

Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allah had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit, Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

 

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after Allah “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”—Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam's coming to the earth was not a “punishment”; and eating was not a “sin”.

   

 

Also according to Tafsir al Tabtaba'i (qas) (clickHere) Prophet Adam (a.s) was made a prophet when he was Sent Down to earth. Its very Well known that a prophet is the Term used when One is Sent from God, and to give a message to Humanity and Guide them, this is when you become a prophet and you are in that state being impossible to make a Sin. We talked about Prophet Dawud (a.s) as we mentioned whether he made a mistake or not. In his Way of thinking and manner of What he did (judged) between the people was in Accordance to Allah, and the Law of Allah only, we cannot merely say that a prophet acts on according to what he simply knows, this would be an incorrect way to term it, because what the prophet "knows" is in accordance to what Allah as given him from knowledge, for he is a prophet and he cannot be Simple with short-Knowledge like the people of the earth, because then people would have doubt in his Prophethood, and what a prophet knows according to what 'Allah has given him', cannot fail at any circumstance, nor Situation, nor cause, not can it be affected, nor can the prophet Him self be effected by the people, nor the Shaytan, at all times. How do you think Allah would Preserve his message to Humanity? So its a Crucial point. So Prophet Dawud (a.s) was taught on the issue of the 'Sheep Situation' and later was taught to Prophet Solomon (a.s) ( We mentioned the verses on the previous page ), On the account of Prophet Dawud (a.s) doing Unjust, is not doing Unjust To Allah, Nor is it Doing Unjsut to the Law of Allah, He acted according to the Law of Allah, He the prophet Already knew the Answer to the Situation, so he with no doubt gave a correct answer according to what Allah has Taught him, but due to only listing to one side he taught that he had made a mistake so he fell down in Prostration to Allah seeking Protecting, Now here, this does not mean That he made a Sin or a mistake nor any of sort, but any prophet (a.s) who acknowledges Allah more than any being, is for Fearful then any man, Due to his Fear of Allah its Natural to ask God for forgiveness even when you have not made any sin or mistake, but you have doubt due to fear. For example, people say 'Istaghfrallah' All the time when they doubt in their Salat, or Dua, Or action, or Judgement they make, but that does not make it Wrong, or a sin, or any form of Mistake, And this is due to being Fearful to Allah, so Allah Forgive to assure the Human being, and to give him a sign, so that he may relax on what he thought he had made, to try and put him at peace with him self. This is a very common issue, All people should in fact know this. So in your stance that they commit sin or mistake is Impossible dear brother and is Invalid, so far you have given no Verses Where they actually commit Disobedience to Allah or to the Law of Allah  during their time of prophetHood. You must not call Ignore Peoples Answers even if they are long in context, you will get mach far in life when reading and Addressing what people state to make a strong stance, for example when you gave me links to check out, I with no Ignorance read them and went over them, and All of them so far I have refuted as you have tried to refute the narrations I have stated Concerning Ahlulabyt (a.s), but I have proven them with most Certainty.

 

 

في ايمان الله 

     

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