Where Is Allah? "there" Or "everywhere" - Which?

[Ali-F]

Asalamu alaaykum

 

Which one is the most true to say:

 

Where is Allah?

 

1.Allah is there (nazubillah)

2. Allah is everywhere

3. Allah is in another dimensions, he is not what we think in this wordly life?

 

 

Please explain why.

[Raniaa]

Ayatul Kursi

أعوذُ باللهِ منَ الشيطانِ الرجيم

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

اللَّهُ لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لا تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلا نَوْمٌ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَنْ ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلا بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلا يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلا بِمَا شَاءَ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلا يَئُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ - (البقرة ، 2: 255).

A'oudhu Billahi Minashaitan irrajeem

Bismillah irrahman irraheem

Allahu la ilaha illa huwa alhayyu alqayyoom, la takhuthuhu sinatun wala nawm, lahu ma fee assamawati wama fil alard, man tha allathee yashfa'au 'aindahu illa bi ithnihi ya'alamu ma bayna aydeehim wama khalfahum, wala yuheetoona bishay in min 'ailmihi illa bima sha a, wasi'a kursiyyuhu assamawati wal arda, wala ya-ooduhu hifthuhuma, wahuwa al 'aaliyyul 'aatheem (Al-Baqara, 2: 255

I seek refuge with Allah from the stoned Shaitan

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Allah! There is no (other) god but He, the Eternally Living, the Maintainer (in charge of all things). Neither slumber nor sleep seizes Him. His is whatsoever in the Heavens and the Earth. Who is that who (Nobody) intercedes in His presence except by His permission? He knows what is between their hands and what is behind them. And they do not surround a thing of His knowledge except whatever He wills. His Chair encompasses the heavens and the Earth, and it does not fatigue Him to preserve both of them (the Heavens and the Earth), and He is the High, the Supreme. (Al-Baqara, 2: 255).

Edited July 17, 2013 by Raniaa

[Ali-F]

Can you please show me your point?

[Raniaa]

That Allah is everywhere because he is the creator of the universe, Allah can be anywhere. It says his chair surrounds the heavens and the earth and it does not tire him to preserve both at the same time.

"His Chair encompasses the heavens and the Earth, and it does not fatigue Him to preserve both of them (the Heavens and the Earth), and He is the High, the Supreme.

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

According to the prophet (as) and the imams (as), Allah is everywhere without being limited in a space. The way he is everywhere is not the same as water filling a cup fully or smoke being everywhere in a room, he is everywhere in a way that is unknowable to us.

[shazada]

Here, there, everywhere. In the thought, in your senses, in the pitch darkness of your mind, outside, inside your body and all other places that your senses could make out or your mind can think of... The omnipresent Lord, He's everywhere!

[Ali-F]

Akhi Ahmad, do you have references to these a'hadith?

[Qa'im]

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي حمزة قال: سأل نافع بن الازرق أبا جعفر عليه السلام فقال: أخبرني عن الله متى كان؟ فقال: متى لم يكن حتى اخبرك متى كان، سبحان من لم يزل ولا يزال فردا صمدا لم يتخذ صاحبة ولا ولدا.   Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Abu Hamza. He said: Nafi` b. al-Azraq asked Abu Ja`far عليه السلام: Inform me about Allah – when did He come into being? So he said: [Tell me] when He did not exist, so that I can inform you when He came into being. Glory be to He who is unceasing and unhalting. The One Eternally-Besought of All, who has neither held for Himself a female companion nor a child. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 232)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال: جاء رجل إلى أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام من وراء نهر بلخ فقال: إني أسألك عن مسألة فإن أجبتني فيها بما عندي قلت بإمامتك، فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: سل عما شئت فقال: أخبرني عن ربك متى كان؟ وكيف كان؟ وعلى أي شئ كان اعتماده؟ فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: إن الله تبارك وتعالى أين الاين بلا أين وكيف الكيف بلا كيف وكان اعتماده على قدرته، فقام إليه الرجل فقبل رأسه وقال: أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدا رسول الله وأن عليا وصي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله والقيم بعده بما قام به رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وأنكم الائمة الصادقون وأنك الخلف من بعدهم.   Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Abi Nasr. He said: A man came to Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام from beyond the Balkh river and said: I will ask you a question, if your answer to me is the same as what which is with me [i will accept your cause]. So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Ask whatever you wish. So he said: Inform me about your Lord, when did He come into being? And how is His state? And upon what thing does He rely? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Allah تبارك وتعالى was there before there was a “there”, and He was being before there was a “how”, and His reliance is upon His power. So the man rose to him and kissed his head, and said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and that `Ali is the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the succeeding upholder of what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله established, and that you are the righteous Imams and the successors after them. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 233)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

أحمد بن إدريس، عن محمد بن عبد الجبار، عن صفوان بن يحيى قال: سألني أبو قرة المحدث أن ادخله على أبي الحسن الرضا عليه السلام فأستأذنته فأذن لي، فدخل فسأله عن الحلال والحرام ثم قال له: أفتقر أن الله محمول؟ فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: كل محمول مفعول به مضاف إلى غيره محتاج، والمحمول اسم نقص في اللفظ والحامل فاعل وهو في اللفظ مدحة وكذلك قول القائل: فوق وتحت وأعلا وأسفل وقد قال الله: " وله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها " ولم يقل في كتبه، إنه المحمول بل قال: إنه الحامل في البر والبحر والممسك السماوات والارض أن تزولا والمحمول ما سوى الله ولم يسمع أحد آمن بالله وعظمته قط قال في دعائه: يا محمول، قال أبو قرة، فإنه قال: " ويحمل عرش ربك فوقهم يومئذ ثمانية " وقال: " الذين يحملون العرش " فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: العرشى ليس هو الله والعرش اسم علم وقدرة، وعرش فيه كل شئ ثم أضاف الحمل إلى غيره: خلق من خلقه، لانه استعبد خلقه بحمل عرشه وهم حملة علمه وخلقا يسبحون حول عرشه وهم يعملون بعلمه وملائكة يكتبون أعمال عباده؟ واستعبد أهل الارض بالطواف حول بيته والله على العرش استوى كما قال والعرش ومن يحمله ومن حول العرش والله الحامل لهم، الحافظ لهم، الممسك القائم على كل نفس وفوق كل شئ وعلى كل شئ ولا يقال: محمول ولا أسفل، قولا مفردا لا يوصل بشئ فيفسد اللفظ والمعنى، قال أبو قرة: فتكذب بالرواية التي جاءت أن الله إذا غضب إنما يعرف غضبه أن الملائكة الذين يحملون العرش يجدون ثقله على كواهلهم، فيخرون سجدا، فإذا ذهب الغضب خف ورجعوا إلى مواقفهم؟ فقال أبو الحسن عليه السلام: أخبرني عن الله تبارك وتعالى منذ لعن إبليس إلى يومك هذا هو غضبان عليه، فمتى رضي؟ وهو في صفتك لم يزل غضبان عليه وعلى أوليائه وعلى أتباعه كيف تجترئ أن تصف ربك بالتغيير من حال إلى حال وأنه يجري عليه ما يجري على المخلوقين؟! سبحانه وتعالى، لم يزل مع الزائلين ولم يتغير مع المتغيرين ولم يتبدل مع المتبدلين، ومن دونه يده وتدبيره، وكلهم إليه محتاج وهو غني عمن سواه.   Ahmad b. Idris from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan b. Yahya. He said: Abu Qurra, the narrator of ahadith asked me to admit him into the presence of Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام, so I asked for his permission in that and he accepted it from me. So he entered upon him and asked him about the permissible and the forbidden, until he said to him: Do you affirm that Allah is carried? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Everything that is carried is an object [of the carrier], additional to what is besides it, and dependent. And ‘carried’ is the name for a defect in an expression, while the carrier is a subject and is [meant to indicate] praise in an expression. And that is the expression of one who says, “Highest and lowest; uppermost and lowermost”. And Allah says, “And for Him are the best names, so call Him by them” (7:180), and He does not say in His Book that He is carried. Rather, He said that He is the carrier in the sea and on the land, and the preserver of the heavens and the Earth from falter. A carried thing is [that which is] other than Allah. The supplication “O carried one!” is never heard from one who believes in Allah and His greatness. Abu Qurra said: But He says, “… and eight will uphold the throne of their Lord that day, above them” (69:17), and He says, “those who uphold the throne…” (40:7). So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: The throne (`arsh) is not Allah, rather it is a name for knowledge and power. In the throne is everything. He ascribed ‘carrying’ to other than Himself – [it is ascribed] to creatures from His creation, because He has made His creatures worship Him by carrying His throne; and they are carrying [a portion of] His knowledge. And there are creatures who glorify [Him] around the throne and act by His knowledge. And the angels write the deeds of His servants. He has made the people of the Earth circumambulate His house (i.e. the Ka`ba). And Allah is established upon His throne, just as He has said. Allah carries the throne, those who uphold it, and those who surround the throne. He preserves them, and He is the sustainer and guardian over every person, and He is above every thing, and He is upon every thing. He cannot be called a carrier or a foundation; this saying is solitary and does not reach a thing, so it corrupts its pronunciation and its meaning. Abu Qurra said: So do you belie the narration that has come [that says], “When Allah becomes angry, His anger becomes known to the angels that hold the throne. They feel the weight of His anger on their shoulders, so they fall down in prostration. And when the anger goes, it (i.e. the throne) lightens and they return to their places”? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Inform me about Allah تبارك وتعالى: from when He cursed Iblees till your time, He has been angry with him. So when was He pleased [during that time]? And in your dogma, His anger with him and with his supporters and with his followers is persistent. How dare you describe your Lord with changes from state to state, and [say] that He experiences what the creatures experience?! May He be glorified and exalted. He does not perish with those who perish, nor does He change with those who change, nor does He replace with those who are replaced and those who are under His hand and His management. All of them require Him, and He is independent from others. (al-Kafi, Volume 1 hadith 332)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 

 

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

It is rather confusing because I've met shayukh who have said that Allah SWT is in every place without being limited, and I've seen shayukh who have denied it like shaykh tusi, saduq, mufeed, hurr 3maali may Allah raise their ranks. However these ahadith are tawatur, the early schoalrs gave these ahadith a majazi meaning the contemporary scholars hold a slightly different view, but honestly mostly semantics. Both are truly correct.

 

I've asked so far 3 scholars they have said this, for example here is a hadith that points to it.

 

عن أبي عبد الله في حديث أن رجلا قال للنبي (ص): أين ربك؟ قال: هو في كل مكان وليس في شئ من المكان المحدود.
أقول: والآيات والروايات والأدلة في ذلك لا تحصى وما روي من أنه في كل مكان مجاز لاستحالة الحقيقة قطعا بل هو بمعنى إحاطة العلم والقدرة.‬ 

 

"Where is your lord"  Abu abdillah (as) says  that the prophet (as) said  " He is in every place but he is not in things from the places of limit".

 

Then hurr l 3aamaly says :  I say the verses and the narrations and indicators for this type of meaning are countless(tawatur) and as for what is narrated of him being in every place then the meaning is metaphorical, the impossibility of this being literal is certain, however regarding this meaning he is all-placed with knowledge and power".

 

Then we have shaykh tusi (qds srhu)

 

مسألة 22) الله تعالى ليس في جهة، ولا مكان، بدليل ان كل ما في الجهة والمكان مفتقر إليهما، وأيضا قد ثبت انه تعالى ليس بجسم ولا جوهر ولا عرض، فلا يكون في المكان والجهة.‬ 

 

Allah subhanahu does not have for him directions nor places, by proof that every thing that has a direction or place is dominated to them, and it is also proved that he is not a body no substance nor an accident so it is impossible for him to have place or direction".

 

 

Saduq and Mufeed say pretty much the same thing, not to mention another tawatur amount of ahadith that also mentions Allah not having a place.

 

 

 

It should be noted that no one here is incorrect, I believe they are all correct, indeed Allah SWT does not have a place.

But in terms of his immaterialness he is present in every place without being in places like bodies are in places, he is completely different from that. We must put all the ahadith together, I think this is the correct route. 

Edited July 18, 2013 by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

[Ali-F]

I am confused: So Allah swt is everywhere, without being limited by being in the places of the limited?

 

Why does Ameli then say, that it is metaphorical, and it is meant, that Allah swt is all-placed with knowledge and power?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Ali-F

[IbnSohan]

If I understood the Imam Ridha answer that bro Qa'im posted above, Imam Ridha said that Allah created the where without a where and created the how without a how....

Which means that "where " is a creation of Allah, by saying that Allah is everywhere, we are restricting Him to His creation "the where". But due to lingual restrictions and due to the limits of our brains, we do not know better than saying Allah is everywhere, thus we say it metaphorically.

[JSAli]

Heard this in a lecture once:

 

"...tell me where Allah isn't and I'll tell you where He is..."

 

Wsalaam

[Ali-F]

If I understood the Imam Ridha answer that bro Qa'im posted above, Imam Ridha said that Allah created the where without a where and created the how without a how....

Which means that "where " is a creation of Allah, by saying that Allah is everywhere, we are restricting Him to His creation "the where". But due to lingual restrictions and due to the limits of our brains, we do not know better than saying Allah is everywhere, thus we say it metaphorically.

 

So, Allah swt created "where", and the reason to why we say: he is everywhere, is because we have a limited brain, and we say it metaphorically i.e what Amili said: 

 

"I say the verses and the narrations and indicators for this type of meaning are countless(tawatur) and as for what is narrated of him being in every place then the

meaning is metaphorical, the impossibility of this being literal is certain, however regarding this meaning he is all-placed with knowledge and power".

 

Allahu Al3am.

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

Allah is not everywhere in the sense of directional place and time, but he may be everywhere in a way that we cannot comprehend metaphorically. 

 

For example we say that his knowledge,power,majesty is beset on everything. Hence the phrase "ya mawjud fi kulli makan".

 

The word mawjud can also mean witnessing and involved in everything.

 

As for the "essence" of Allah (swt) then it is without a place, wasalam.

[Ali-F]

So, it is metaphorically, because our brain is limitied to understand Allah?  Is that true?

[Qa'im]

Allah is not physically everywhere, nor is He physically no where, nor is He physically somewhere. Allah is above imagination - and He knows best.

[Iamgr8]

Allah is everywhere. Allah Almighty says he created humans in his own image. So he is also inside you.

[Ethics]

Allah is everywhere. Allah Almighty says he created humans in his own image. So he is also inside you.

:wacko:  inside of me? How?

[mehdi23]

(salam)

God is neither Hidden nor Manifest -
What does it mean to be Hidden? To be Hidden out of view. Whose view? Human's view. Sight's view. God is not Ontologically Hidden. He is not Hidden to Himself. To say that would make no sense.
What does it mean to be Manifest? To be Open to view. Whose view? Human's view. Intellect's view. God is not Ontologically Manifest. He is not Manifest to Himself. To say that would make no sense.

The finger points to the moon - but is not the moon in any sense. The Names point to God - but they are not God in any sense.
So what is the connection between the finger and the moon? It makes me look up into the night sky as opposed to looking at the ground.
What is the connection between the Names and God? It makes me look up to God.

The finger makes me see the moon - the moon as seen by me.
The Names make me look up to God - God as seen by me.


The moon is up there - as seen by me.
God is Hidden and Manifest - as seen by me.
The moon is white - as seen by me.
God is Good - as seen by me.
The moon is round - as seen by me.
God is Almighty - as seen by me.

and so on and so forth.

The finger only makes sense to someone who 'sees' the finger, 'comprehends' the finger. The Names only make sense to someone who 'understands' the Names, 'conceives' the meaning of the Names.

We have 99 Names for God. God has no Names.




But why did I say: the words are analogical, pragmatic tools for humans to interact with God. They are strictly not God.

This will be long, I hope it doesn't put you off.

God is Omniscient. What does this mean? It means that everything I do God knows, like someone constantly watching, and so I must be careful of what I do. It means that I may forget something, but God is watchful of everything that has happened, like an eye that never blinks. It means that God knows what will happen to me, much like I know what will happen to someone who jumps off a cliff, so I must never fear - He is there in the end, in the storm and stress of the world.
Everything comes back to our human way of life. Our world. All these Names are coloured with Human understanding.
When we say God knows, we mean it's like having a constant mind or eye looking at everything that happens, from the microscopic to the macroscopic, from the outer to the inner. It's like. It isn't that. Just a way of ordering our life in view of how we see God.


God is Creator. What does this mean? When a sperm and an egg becomes an impressive scholar of genius and humility, when the leaves go Autumn orange, when the ice melts, when the volcano erupts, these changes, they are like when we fashion pottery from clay or children play with plasticine. Does this mean that God uses tools to change the world? No. This is an analogy. He creates, but not like we create. There is no pre-existing matter to change. Much like when we create an idea in our head from nothing. Does this mean that God has a mind? Well, I said "much like". It's an analogy. Is it that we conjure up ideas from memory? Again, I said "much like". He brings things into being from non-being. So does He actually do anything to them? No. He doesn't change. The things change from non-being to being. How? Like a magnet attracting iron pieces. The magnet doesn't change. Another analogy. Don't get caught up in them. Just a manner of understanding things which cannot be expressed. Why can't they be expressed? Because expression comes from understanding - and to understand what we cannot understand... impossible.


God is Eternal. What does this mean? It means that He sees what we did in the past, and what we are doing in the present, and what we will do in the future. So He's gone through it all? Well, no. He hasn't experienced 'time' - whatever that means. Just as we see a point on the number-line, the points before it and the points after in one picture, He also sees it that way. Does He see our past, present and future in a picture or in three pictures or in many pictures? Well, it's not like a Subject-Object situation. He just 'knows' the visual contents of the picture like when we see the picture, but not in any sense similar. Does He 'know' the contents of the picture similar to how we know? No, He just 'knows' it like we know it - but not in a similar way, nor in a similar comprehension.

So why do we say 'He knows', 'He sees', 'He creates', 'He is eternal'?

Because that's how we must treat it. If I munch into a green apple, I should treat the situation as there being someone who knows this, sees the colour, creates the munching, and knows what is prior and what is posterior to all this. But not 'knowing' as we comprehend it. Not 'seeing' as we fathom it. Not 'creating' as we understand it. These words are how we should live and interact with an unfathomable God - not how we should fathom Him in any sense.





In case the above was still not clear, this may help:

He didn't say He is only the Hidden. He said that He is the Manifest as well.
But what language was He speaking? And to whom?

God also said, "And in the mountains there are streaks, white and red, of different colours, and some intensely black. And of people and animals and cattle there are different colours likewise. "

To whom was the above addressed? To whom should it be addressed?





Imran said, “O my Master! Was He not silent before creating the creatures and then He spoke?”

Al-Reza (s) said, “Silence does not exist unless there is some utterance before it. An example of this is that it is not said that the lamp is silent and does not utter; nor is it said that the lamp shines implying that it wants to do something to us. The light shining from the lamp is not considered to be the act of the lamp. It is not something separate from the lamp. Therefore, when it is illuminating us we say that it was lit for us by which we found our way around. Through this example you can find what you are after and become enlightened in your affairs.”

What is interesting is that the question remains - unanswered? or just dissolved?
Is God silent? Does God speak? What does it all mean?
Is the lamp acting on us? Did God act on us? What does it all mean?




(wasalam)

[Robin Hood]

God is unlimited, thus He is not subjected to location, and we can't ask where He s?

[Quisant]

What is interesting is that the question remains - unanswered? or just dissolved?

Is God silent? Does God speak? What does it all mean?

Is the lamp acting on us? Did God act on us? What does it all mean?

 

 

Your post is a wonderful example of 'JABBERWOCKY' language. 

 

If God's logic is beyond our comprehension, then that is no different to our perspective than a God who is not logical.

 

If humans lack the "perspective" to understand God's logic, there's no way to prove that God is logical. 

 

What is your opinion, is God bound by our logic or not? 

 

slms.

*

[mehdi23]

Your post is a wonderful example of 'JABBERWOCKY' language. 

 

If God's logic is beyond our comprehension, then that is no different to our perspective than a God who is not logical.

 

If humans lack the "perspective" to understand God's logic, there's no way to prove that God is logical. 

 

What is your opinion, is God bound by our logic or not? 

 

slms.

*

He, whoever he is, is incomprehensible. And rightly so. How can finiteness comprehend infiniteness? Impossible. So it jabberwocky or a mystery? Who knows, though I do see glaring holes in its logic. If it's truly jabberwocky, then seldom does one find such a quintessential exposition of it. I didn't write the post. It was from the late member Jebreil. I posted it because it has aesthetic appeal.

[iamnobody]

The Wahdat ul Wujuud ideology is the most fitting for it I believe.

In one of the Hadith Qudsi I read He says:" I wanted to be known therefore I created all of this". He wanted us to know him, and If we still don't know him right now than we must got wrong premise to start with.

 

Just my simple opinion.

[Alawi-e-Ali]

Asalamu alaaykum

 

Which one is the most true to say:

 

Where is Allah?

 

1.Allah is there (nazubillah)

2. Allah is everywhere

3. Allah is in another dimensions, he is not what we think in this wordly life?

 

 

Please explain why.

Who wants to be a millionaire?, lol where is the fourth option?

[Elhusseinie]

'Where' is a perception: your eyes see location which are perceived by your brain. That is why some people say that location is inside you, meaning, inside your brain.

The philosopher Rene Decartes said that everything you see can not be trusted, because your senses can cheat you. For example, when seeing an illusion of an oasis in a dessert. The people in his time asked him to prove his own existence without the senses. That's when he came with the famous statement: 'I doubt, therefore I think, I think, therefore I am'.

By using this example, I like to explain that God can only be 'seen' by reason and it is impossible to see him with our eyes. He is nowhere, yet everywhere.

We also say that God is seen by the heart and not with the eyes.

[mesbah]

simple: time and space are properties of materialistic objects, Allah swt is not a materialistic object. negating time and space from Allah is as incorrect as ascribing them to him. let me give an example: blind is a property which is used exclusively for humans or animals, creatures that could be able to see with eyes but now he/she can not, therefor we can't describe a stone with the word "blind", because it did not have the potentiality of sight, that we want to negate its actuality.

it is impossible to understand a non-materialistic entity in a frame of time or space.

[Quisant]

If God is absent from any aspect of 'creation,' God cannot be said to be Omnipresent. 

 

If God is absolutely present (omnipresence) this must mean that God is inseparable from creation.

Logically, it can't be both ways: God being both an absolute part of creation, and separate from it. It's a contradiction.

[PeaceLoving]

God is not physical.

 

His presence anywhere is not physical.

 

He is beyond the boundaries of the laws of nature. 

 

A non-physical Being cannot be evaluated by the laws of nature.

 

There is absolutely no contradiction.

[Ethics]

 

If God is absent from any aspect of 'creation,' God cannot be said to be Omnipresent. 

 

If God is absolutely present (omnipresence) this must mean that God is inseparable from creation.

Logically, it can't be both ways: God being both an absolute part of creation, and separate from it. It's a contradiction.

 

 

That doesnt make any sense at all. Your statements are a contradiction itself. What do you exactly mean if God is or isnt absent from any aspect of creation? God's presence has nothing to do with the realm of the creation. The creator is separate from the creation.

 

When we talk about God being present, we are not talking about in the sense of materialistic presence and form. God is above all this. You cannot give God a form. We use the term presence due to our limited minds in this finite world. You cannot bring an absolute God into the finite. If God is part of his creations which are limited and finite, you must subject God to the exact concepts which is a contradiction.

[EthidiumIodide]

Yeah, Croissant-Quisant. Work on your philosophy. 

 

Allah can't be understood by our minds since we are limited to the physical realm. Allah is not absent from creation in the sense that Allah is continuously observing all of creation, but that doesn't mean that Allah is part of creation. 

 

Imagine you staring into a roof-less room from above. You are observing the whole room, but you aren't in the room. You are not absent as you are an observer, but you aren't actually present in the room either.

[tawheedalasma]

All of the posts are very interesting.

 

I agree with Mesbah that we cannot answer the question "where" God is because only material things are subject to questions related to place and time. God is not material and therefore cannot have such material accidents (like place) applied to Him. Since our minds are subject to the limitations of time and space, we think about Him through our finite modes. As a result, we tend to speak about God being everywhere and inside things or dwelling in our hearts. But we do not mean this literally. When I think that God is inside me or that He is everywhere, I mean that my very being and all of the things around me are ontologically dependent on God. The existence of every particular being is totally and completely dependent on God at every moment. My being is so radically dependent on God that, in a way, God is closer to me than myself. So, yes, God is everywhere. But since he transcends all things, we cannot speak of him as being in any one one place or limited by the diverse things that are entirely dependent on His infinite, unlimited, and all-powerful existence. If we conceive of the totality of beings as dependent for their existence on God, we can get a slight and imperfect grasp at how God is both everywhere and yet beyond all things. But, of course, God knows best.  

[Quisant]

 

 

The claim that God ‘transcends our understanding’ is usually invoked as a defence for the so-called "paradoxes of Faith" 

 

"God is outside logic" is just another way of saying "Statements made about God are not true." They both mean exactly the same thing.

 

God is only unknowable when a believer is presented with a problem or contradiction. 

 

And yet it is 'Believers' who assigned  the property of Omnipresence or Ubiquity to God.

 

From the dictionary, Omnipresence: present in all places at all times.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipresent

 

"They must find it difficult... those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority." - (Gerald Massey.) 

 

wslm.

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[HamzaTR]

Salam.. Here you can study God in shia islamic traditions; (page seven and forth) http://www.messageofthaqalayn.com/41-God.pdf ma salam

Edited February 18, 2014 by HamzaTR

[Ethics]

The claim that God ‘transcends our understanding’ is usually invoked as a defence for the so-called "paradoxes of Faith"

"God is outside logic" is just another way of saying "Statements made about God are not true." They both mean exactly the same thing.

God is only unknowable when a believer is presented with a problem or contradiction.

And yet it is 'Believers' who assigned the property of Omnipresence or Ubiquity to God.

From the dictionary, Omnipresence: present in all places at all times.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipresent

"They must find it difficult... those who have taken authority as truth, rather than truth as authority." - (Gerald Massey.)

wslm.

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Your funny bro. Your always trying to define and limit God. Its funny, because if we were to agree illogical statement of yours, God becomes limited. What is this concept of "God". Clearly, God must be above anything finite. Even calling him absolute and infinite does him harm, why? Because once you subject God, you give Him limitations. This in itself is a contradiction to the notion of God. An atheist argues the same thing against Christians. Once you place a limitation on God you are restricting this notion of an absolute God. But yes, we have no other choice but to use terms like infinite and absolute. We as humans, are limited and finite. Our thinking and language is also finite so there is no way we can truly grasp this notion fully. Hence when Allah talks with us in the Quran, see the terms being used to describe Himself to us. It's always an absolute notion to any attribute, because there is nothing higher in this "language-to-brain" concept then the notion of absolute. Its not that we can never understand him, no, its just that we can never understand Him fully. By the way, what do you mean God is in or out of logic? Logic doesn't apply to God. It is just a tool derived by our intellect, which God created. We are the ones using our logic to tell you what your trying to bring about is illogical.

(Wasalam)

[Quisant]

Your funny bro. Your always trying to define and limit God. Its funny, because if we were to agree illogical statement of yours, God becomes limited. What is this concept of "God". Clearly, God must be above anything finite. Even calling him absolute and infinite does him harm, why? Because once you subject God, you give Him limitations. This in itself is a contradiction to the notion of God. An atheist argues the same thing against Christians. Once you place a limitation on God you are restricting this notion of an absolute God. But yes, we have no other choice but to use terms like infinite and absolute. We as humans, are limited and finite. Our thinking and language is also finite so there is no way we can truly grasp this notion fully. Hence when Allah talks with us in the Quran, see the terms being used to describe Himself to us. It's always an absolute notion to any attribute, because there is nothing higher in this "language-to-brain" concept then the notion of absolute. Its not that we can never understand him, no, its just that we can never understand Him fully. By the way, what do you mean God is in or out of logic? Logic doesn't apply to God. It is just a tool derived by our intellect, which God created. We are the ones using our logic to tell you what your trying to bring about is illogical.

(wasalam)

 

 

When it comes to funny, you are not too bad yourself  :)

 

But if all you have is an 'argument from authority' - there is little point in continuing the convrsation.

 

All the best.

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