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EasternQibla

Huge Numbers Of Christians Accept Muhammad

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Now that I've got your attention, perhaps I should point out that while the title is true, it probably is not what you are expecting! Listen to what the Persian ("Nestorian") Christian John bar Penkaye wrote in about 690AD/68AH:
 

We should not think of the advent (of the children of Hagar) as something ordinary, but as due to divine working. Before calling them, (God) had prepared them beforehand to hold Christians in honour, thus they also had a special commandment from God concerning our monastic station, that they should hold it in honour.

John bar Penkaye, Summary of World History, end of book 14
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/john_bar_penkaye_history_15_trans.htm

Here is a Christian monk, still accepting the Nicene Creed (Trinity and Jesus crucified and the Son of God), who believed that Muhammad was guided by God ("a special commandment from God"). Other Persian Christians speak similarly during these very early days of Islam.

 

It would be good if relations like this could be re-established, and I have been thinking about this.

 

However, what are your thoughts? Let us discuss.

 

:)

Richard

 

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Now that I've got your attention, perhaps I should point out that while the title is true, it probably is not what you are expecting! Listen to what the Persian ("Nestorian") Christian John bar Penkaye wrote in about 690AD/68AH:

 

Here is a Christian monk, still accepting the Nicene Creed (Trinity and Jesus crucified and the Son of God), who believed that Muhammad was guided by God ("a special commandment from God"). Other Persian Christians speak similarly during these very early days of Islam.

 

It would be good if relations like this could be re-established, and I have been thinking about this.

 

However, what are your thoughts? Let us discuss.

 

:)

Richard

I'm Christian, not a monk, not accepting the trinity, but believe Muhammad was guided by God.

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Now that I've got your attention, perhaps I should point out that while the title is true, it probably is not what you are expecting! Listen to what the Persian ("Nestorian") Christian John bar Penkaye wrote in about 690AD/68AH:

 

Here is a Christian monk, still accepting the Nicene Creed (Trinity and Jesus crucified and the Son of God), who believed that Muhammad was guided by God ("a special commandment from God"). Other Persian Christians speak similarly during these very early days of Islam.

 

It would be good if relations like this could be re-established, and I have been thinking about this.

 

However, what are your thoughts? Let us discuss.

 

:)

Richard

I can see why, in the beginning they may have thought he was guided by God, because he was teaching alot of the same things as they were, but I think as time went on Truth revealed itself.  You have to read the quran in the order it was revealed to see how he changed his stance on things as time went along and he found that he was not being accepted by the Jews and the Christians.  I believe it was then that the surah's denouncing the beliefs of the Christians(teaching against the Christ) began to come forth.  I should probably go do some re-checking.

Edited by CLynn

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I'm Christian, not a monk, not accepting the trinity, but believe Muhammad was guided by God.

that makes you a :Muslim .

Do you also believe :Muhammad's (as) family is also guided by God ?

If so than you are a  :Shia.

welcome my dear brother .

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I can see why, in the beginning they may have thought he was guided by God, because he was teaching alot of the same things as they were, but I think as time went on Truth revealed itself.  You have to read the quran in the order it was revealed to see how he changed his stance on things as time went along and he found that he was not being accepted by the Jews and the Christians.  I believe it was then that the surah's denouncing the beliefs of the Christians(teaching against the Christ) began to come forth.  I should probably go do some re-checking.

John Bar Penkaye was writing in 690AD, 57 years after Muhammad's (pbuh) death.

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Many Yemenite Jews also accepted Muhammad (pbuh) as a sort of prophet to the Arabs or the Gentiles. Though there's a difference between seeing Muhammad as a sort of Lutheran "reformer" and seeing him as a messenger of God. One who believes the latter should logically accept the revelation that came to him, as a divinely-appointed man cannot produce a satanic book. And since the Qur'an categorically rejects the trinity and promotes individual salvation via works and faith, I don't think one can be a Christian whilst believing Muhammad (pbuh), because his teachings were contrary to some central tenets. I am flattered and impressed by those who respect our Prophet (pbuh), but you need to draw the line somewhere.

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that makes you a :Muslim .

Do you also believe :Muhammad's (as) family is also guided by God ?

If so than you are a  :Shia.

welcome my dear brother .

Thank you, dear brother Sami.

I wouldn't be so quick to call me a "Muslim" though. I don't know that much about Muhammad's family.

I believe Muhammad was a Prophet sent to the Arabs to eradicate idolatry, and he did.

 

There is some merit to what Qa'im says, although considering all Prophets had the same message it shouldn't matter that much. The Quran speaks against the trinity, but trinity is a doctrine, not a biblical concept, I strive to find the similarities more than the differences.

 

Where I'm having trouble is in reading the Quran's black and white, then losing it all to hadith. Every Ayat is supposed to have 7 meanings, yet none of mine are any good. At the same time, all Muslims seem to agree on just one meaning, that of which I never get right.

 

I get the feeling that "It is reported that...this guy said, this guy said, this guy said, this guy said, this guy said, this guy said," <---- Please excuse the familiarity, but one of those guys didn't like Christians and purposely didn't want to agree on anything.

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Hi Eastern,

Quote from Post 1:

Here is a Christian monk, still accepting the Nicene Creed (Trinity and Jesus crucified and the Son of God), who believed that Muhammad was guided by God ("a special commandment from God"). Other Persian Christians speak similarly during these very early days of Islam.

It would be good if relations like this could be re-established, and I have been thinking about this.

Response: --- I have a Pickthall translation which has a long intro, telling of who Muhammad was and how God called him as a Messenger.

There is evidence that his wife Khadijah, was a Christian and, after the vision of Gabriel,

Quote: ‘On their return to Mecca, she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, a very old man, “Who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” who affirmed his belief, --- that he was chosen as the Prophet of his people.’ --- End of quote.

There is some confusion in the Quran because the Jews turned against Muhammad and his teaching, because they hoped Muhammad would be a Prophet ‘under’ their leadership

So often when it speaks of the ‘People of the Scriptures,’ or “People of the Book,’ the thought is that it refers to Jews and Christians, --- but not so. It usually refers to the Jews, but you can find out if it includes both by reading the context.

Muhammad honored the Christians, and Christians honored his teaching. --- Notice these verses in Surah 5:

82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: --- They pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86 But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

The Christians already believed the truths that Muhammad was revealing so they were in harmony, --- And the reward of their Faith and testimony to the truth, is the eternal home, the Paradise of God..

Yes, I believe in Muhammad, that he was God’s Prophet in his generation, to destroy idolatry from among the Arabs and return their worship to Faith in One God. --- I do not believe ‘the faulty doctrine of trinity’ that is not a doctrine in the NT, --- but came out of the newly formed Roman Catholic (universal)) Church after about 300 AD.

--- But I like the idea of us getting closer on the points where we agree.

Placid

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that makes you a :Muslim .

Do you also believe :Muhammad's (as) family is also guided by God ?

If so than you are a  :Shia.

welcome my dear brother .

 

Placid and Son of Placid believe Jesus was crucified, died, buried, and resurrected.............

Edited by ImAli

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Many Yemenite Jews also accepted Muhammad (pbuh) as a sort of prophet to the Arabs or the Gentiles. Though there's a difference between seeing Muhammad as a sort of Lutheran "reformer" and seeing him as a messenger of God. One who believes the latter should logically accept the revelation that came to him, as a divinely-appointed man cannot produce a satanic book. And since the Qur'an categorically rejects the trinity and promotes individual salvation via works and faith, I don't think one can be a Christian whilst believing Muhammad (pbuh), because his teachings were contrary to some central tenets. I am flattered and impressed by those who respect our Prophet (pbuh), but you need to draw the line somewhere.

First of all, he didn't produce a book.  And that which his followers produced included Hadiths so it's known not to be perfect  Muslims also need to draw the line somewhere on what he said and didn't.

 

Belief in trinity gets lower every year amongst Christians (I never did believe in it) and likely to be eventually dismissed (As it should have been around 300 AD).   

 

There are contrary central tenets within the Gospels and for which reason there are approximately one thousand different Christian sects.  Muhammad simply makes it 1001. 

 

All the Gospels were written by Hellenized Jews opposed to the Pharisees and Sadducees.  Not a single one was written in Arabic. If Hellenized Jews could be considered a political party, then there were four political parties in Judea at the time of Jesus - the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and the Hellenized Jews.  Only one of the four were putting words in Jesus' dead mouth.  So - Yes - I take what they say with a grain of salt.   

 

I don't think its possible to use the Gospels to argue with any other religion - including with fellow Christians.  You could even make the argument Christianity knows nothing about itself as Jesus would not have been a Hellenized Jew.  It's rather like having the South write the history of Abraham Lincoln or the Jews write the history of Hitler.  They'll write what fits their political agenda.  It's like Jews throwing out the Torah for the Talmud.  Simply pick what you want to believe.

 

Ultimately I believe that God was looking through his microscope at Earth one day and had the surprise of seeing Abram waving back.  Abram knew he was there.  And God rewarded him for it. 

 

And, after that, it becomes all one big mess with everybody claiming the high ground.  And, when you add in Judaism, it only gets stranger still because now the Muslim must agree the Israelis, who according to the UN are  simply thieves and murderers, and according to Islam corrupted their religion ten times over, should continuously kill the righteous Islamic Palestinians 7:1 for the last 65 years.  It seems God has taken the side of the murderers and land thieves against the ONLY side to ever get his religion right.  Why is that? 

 

Add in that most Shias would be Jews before they would be Christians and one has to wonder?

 

So when I'm called upon to "draw the line" between myself and Muhammad, it's usually the line between winners and losers. 

 

Now mine might seem like a harsh viewpoint but it's not.  I no more disbelieve Muslims than I do Jews or Christians and, given the choice between living as a Jewish citizen in Israel or a penguin in Greenland, I'd choose Greenland.

 

God bless all!

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IMAnonymous, always a pleasure to see you on here, and we wish to see more of you.

 

First of all, he didn't produce a book.  And that which his followers produced included Hadiths so it's known not to be perfect  Muslims also need to draw the line somewhere on what he said and didn't.

 

The vast majority of Muslim scholars believe that the Qur'an of the Prophet (pbuh) is the same as that which would be codified just a few years after his death. The Uthmanic codex was based on manuscripts belonging to the wives of the Prophet and those who had memorized chapters of the Qur'an. Each verse was accounted for by at least two different companions. There's little reason to believe that the book of the Prophet was so different from the one that would be produced. Yes, there's different recitations (qira'at) of the Qur'an, which have some differing vowels and letters, and yes the qira'at can account for slight differences in meaning, but one cannot say that the Qur'an is different. Even the biggest proponents of tahreef will express minor differences in the text.

 

As for ahadith, there is no one more critical of their own oral and written tradition than Muslims are. We've developed methods to verify hadiths, and without getting into too much detail, they can establish the basis of Muhammad's teachings with relative certainty. I agree, no one can strengthen 100% certainty, and no one can weaken a tradition with 100% certainty - but we can use different tools to establish what is or isn't reliable. The Prophet (pbuh) was not the leader of a small cult; he was a public figure with over one hundred thousand companions, several wives, relatives, etc. Many of his contemporaries had students, and so the link between the scholars and the Prophet is much stronger than the link between the Church Fathers and Jesus (as).

 

So the point here is this: there's no support for the original sin, the crucifixion, and the atonement of all sin in Islam. Not even the weakest and most obscure traditions support any of these ideas. The Islamic legacy, which includes the Qur'an, tens of thousands of hadiths, scholars, exegeses, books of logic and philosophy, etc. never upheld these ideas. This is as much certainty as we can get that the Prophet (pbuh) did not teach these things, and instead, taught the opposite. The Shi`a tradition even takes it a step further and curses out Paul and his religious innovations, while the Sunni hadith corpus had not commented on him.

 

Muhammad (pbuh) isn't just a name that people can uphold; he was a flesh and bones human with a dynamic teaching that was inherited by his family, his companions, and the books. It's very easy for one to say that he respects and loves Buddha and is inspired by his characteristics, but if you completely deny the teachings attributed to Buddha, then what is it that you are holding onto? To those Christians who believe in the Prophet (pbuh), what leads you to this conclusion (as opposed to just saying he was an imposter) and what stops you from simply becoming Muslims?

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I'm Christian, not a monk, not accepting the trinity, but believe Muhammad was guided by God.

 

Include me too.

 

me also.

 

How are you able to reconcile that with Christianity, especially when there are fundamental differences between what Muhammed said vs. Jesus?

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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How are you able to reconcile that with Christianity, especially when there are fundamental differences between what Muhammed said vs. Jesus?

 

Wow, long time no see. Hope all is well with you.

 

What's to reconcile? The majority of what the Quran disagrees with is doctrines, not Biblical.

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