Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Abu 3antar

Question To Sunnis

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salam brothers and sister.

 

I have some questions that regard the Sunni relation to certain historical individuals.

 

For example, regarding Muawiyah: Do you deny that he did curse Imam Ali (AS) who was the current Caliph, or do you in some way justify it?

 

And regarding Ayesha: What would you think of a person who waged war against let's say Umar Ibn al-Khattab during his time as Caliph? Would you condemn it or justify it, and if you would condemn it, how come you don't condemn Ayesha waging war against Imam Ali (AS)?

Edited by Abu 3antar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam brothers and sister.

 

I have some questions that regard the Sunni relation to certain historical individuals.

 

For example, regarding Muawiyah: Do you deny that he did curse Imam Ali (as) who was the current Caliph, or do you in some way justify it?

 

(wasalam)

 

There is no strong evidence that prove he cursed Ali (ra). And even if he did then we reject his action. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(wasalam)

 

There is no strong evidence that prove he cursed Ali (ra). And even if he did then we reject his action. 

 

(salam)

 

strong evidence? Sahih Muslim is authentic for you right? so read this

 

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:

What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger () having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger () say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger () said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger () called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Book 31, Hadith 5915 Arabic reference  : Book 45, Hadith 6373

http://sunnah.com/muslim/44

 

I expect, you're going to say it is "abused" not "cursed".... :D

 

(wasalam)

Edited by akramabbas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

 

strong evidence? Sahih Muslim is authentic for you right? so read this

 

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:

What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger () having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger () say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger () said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger () called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Book 31, Hadith 5915 Arabic reference  : Book 45, Hadith 6373

http://sunnah.com/muslim/44

 

 

(wasalam)

 

This is the only authentic narration but it is still not strong evidence. There are some explanations for it:

 

Imam Al-Qurtubi said: “The most authentic narration used is his (i.e. Mu’awiyah) saying to Sa’d b. Abi Waqas: What prevented you from insulting Abu Turab? And this is not [in any way] a declaration that he asked him to insult [him], rather it just was an inquiry about why he didn’t”.
 
Imam Al-Nawawi mentions something similar in his commentary on the tradition. He says:  “It might have been that Sa’d was among a group who used to insult Ali [ra], and So the inquiry of Mu’awiya [ra], according to this understanding would be: What prevented you, O Sa’d, from insulting Ali, when everyone around you was doing it.”

 

Source: http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/part-9-nature-of-relationship-between-ahlebaytra-and-muawiyara/

 

 

I expect, you're going to say it is "abused" not "cursed"....  :D

 

(wasalam)

 

Both is bad. (in the Hadith the word سُبَّ sab is used which mean abuse). 

 

There is no doubt that there were elements in both armies who would abuse each other. What else do you expect from two warring groups? It is natural that during war people abuse each other. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the only authentic narration but it is still not strong evidence. There are some explanations for it:


 


Imam Al-Qurtubi said: “The most authentic narration used is his (i.e. Mu’awiyah) saying to Sa’d b. Abi Waqas: What prevented you from insulting Abu Turab? And this is not [in any way] a declaration that he asked him to insult [him], rather it just was an inquiry about why he didn’t”.

 

Imam Al-Nawawi mentions something similar in his commentary on the tradition. He says:  “It might have been that Sa’d was among a group who used to insult Ali [ra], and So the inquiry of Mu’awiya [ra], according to this understanding would be: What prevented you, O Sa’d, from insulting Ali, when everyone around you was doing it.”

 

 

@Abul Hussain, May Allah grant you guidance, you are either ignorant of historical facts if not you are completely blinded by your Sahaba loyalty. It is a historical fact that Imam Ali (as) was accused of murdering Caliph Uthman, and Banu Ummaya instituted the cursing of Ameer ul Mumineen (as) from every mosque for over 90 years. The  murders committed by your Muawiya is another issue. You deny our  concept of Imamat in the Quran, fine. I ask you where did the Quran define Sahaba? was the word Sahaba even mentioned as a group of companions in the Quran? Not to mention your disgusting attitude in concealing the crimes of Banu Ummaya. Your sect will support Imam Mahdi (as)? hahahah. a serious joke.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(wasalam)

 

This is the only authentic narration but it is still not strong evidence. There are some explanations for it:

 

Imam Al-Qurtubi said: “The most authentic narration used is his (i.e. Mu’awiyah) saying to Sa’d b. Abi Waqas: What prevented you from insulting Abu Turab? And this is not [in any way] a declaration that he asked him to insult [him], rather it just was an inquiry about why he didn’t”.
 
Imam Al-Nawawi mentions something similar in his commentary on the tradition. He says:  “It might have been that Sa’d was among a group who used to insult Ali [ra], and So the inquiry of Mu’awiya [ra], according to this understanding would be: What prevented you, O Sa’d, from insulting Ali, when everyone around you was doing it.”

 

Source: http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/part-9-nature-of-relationship-between-ahlebaytra-and-muawiyara/

 

 

Both is bad. (in the Hadith the word سُبَّ sab is used which mean abuse). 

 

There is no doubt that there were elements in both armies who would abuse each other. What else do you expect from two warring groups? It is natural that during war people abuse each other. 

 

(salam)

 

wow! 'pious' sahabi can abuse each other? Are those really pious sahabis? Show me any hadith where Imam Ali (as) ever cursed/abused any Sahabi. Never mind, it is actually hard for you to understand little thing. You're defending those so-called 'pious' sahabis, who used to abuse each other. Were they really 'pious' sahabi of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? 

When you show Nehjul Balagah quote against Shia, and then we show Explanation of the sermon/letter, then you don't agree. So how can we agree on your explanation while Hadith is clearly saying. 

 

What do you say about these hadiths? You know what, you only depend on Internet articles. Those Nasibis articles. 

 

A narration attributed to Ahmad ibn Hanbal reports:

“Abdullah al-Jadali said: 'I came to Umm Salama and she said to me: 'How come Allah’s Messenger is being cursed among you?’. I replied: 'We seek refuge from Allah or praise Allah or some similar words'. She said: 'I heard Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) saying ‘whoever curses `Ali Ibn Abi Talib has cursed me’”

Sunnis tend to view this as Sahih and have included it in Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal

 

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&BookID=30&PID=25525

 

Now this hadith...

 

Narrated Al-Ahnaf bin Qais:

 

While I was going to help this man ('Ali Ibn Abi Talib), Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I am going to help that person." He said, "Go back for I have heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'When two Muslims fight (meet) each other with their swords, both the murderer as well as the murdered will go to the Hell-fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is all right for the murderer but what about the murdered one?' Allah's Apostle replied, "He surely had the intention to kill his companion."

 

Sahih Bukhari: Vol 1 Book 2 Number  3

 

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/002-sbt.php

 

So it is clearly saying Bibi Ayesha, Imam Ali (as), Muawiya, Imam Hassan (as), Imam Hussain (as) etc will all go to Hell-fire because they fought each other. Never mind, it just does not support this thread. But my point was look Sahih Bukhari is not completely 'authentic' at all. 

 

Dear, you must stop defending those Sahaba who hurt nearest ones of Holy Prophet (pbuh) and even hurt Holy Prophet (pbuh)

 

I will end this by quoting an Ayat from the Holy Quran.

 

Quran 49:9

And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them; but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command; then if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably; surely Allah loves those who act equitably.

 

Now understand it yourself why I shared this. Otherwise I will need to tell you why I shared with you this specific Quranic Ayat.

 

(wasalam)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

(salam)

 

wow! 'pious' sahabi can abuse each other? Are those really pious sahabis? Show me any hadith where Imam Ali (as) ever cursed/abused any Sahabi. Never mind, it is actually hard for you to understand little thing. You're defending those so-called 'pious' sahabis, who used to abuse each other. Were they really 'pious' sahabi of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? 

When you show Nehjul Balagah quote against Shia, and then we show Explanation of the sermon/letter, then you don't agree. So how can we agree on your explanation while Hadith is clearly saying. 

 

 

What do you say about these hadiths? You know what, you only depend on Internet articles. Those Nasibis articles. 

 

A narration attributed to Ahmad ibn Hanbal reports:

“Abdullah al-Jadali said: 'I came to Umm Salama and she said to me: 'How come Allah’s Messenger is being cursed among you?’. I replied: 'We seek refuge from Allah or praise Allah or some similar words'. She said: 'I heard Allah’s Messenger  (pbuh) saying ‘whoever curses `Ali Ibn Abi Talib has cursed me’” ”

Sunnis tend to view this as Sahih and have included it in Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal

 

http://hadith.al-isl...ID=30&PID=25525

 

Now this hadith...

 

Narrated Al-Ahnaf bin Qais:

 

While I was going to help this man ('Ali Ibn Abi Talib), Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I am going to help that person." He said, "Go back for I have heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'When two Muslims fight (meet) each other with their swords, both the murderer as well as the murdered will go to the Hell-fire.' I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! It is all right for the murderer but what about the murdered one?' Allah's Apostle replied, "He surely had the intention to kill his companion."

 

Sahih Bukhari: Vol 1 Book 2 Number  3

 

http://www.usc.edu/o...ari/002-sbt.php

 

So it is clearly saying Bibi Ayesha, Imam Ali  (as), Muawiya, Imam Hassan  (as), Imam Hussain  (as) etc will all go to Hell-fire because they fought each other. Never mind, it just does not support this thread. But my point was look Sahih Bukhari is not completely 'authentic' at all. 

 

Dear, you must stop defending those Sahaba who hurt nearest ones of Holy Prophet  (pbuh) and even hurt Holy Prophet  (pbuh)

 

I will end this by quoting an Ayat from the Holy Quran.

 

Quran 49:9

And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them; but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command; then if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably; surely Allah loves those who act equitably.

 

Now understand it yourself why I shared this. Otherwise I will need to tell you why I shared with you this specific Quranic Ayat.

 

(wasalam)

 

 

 

(wasalam)

 

I am talking about some elements (who were mostly likely non-Sahaba) on both sides who abused each other. You should know that 95% of Sahaba didn't even take part in these wars because they considered it Fitna. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Both is bad. (in the Hadith the word سُبَّ sab is used which mean abuse). 

 

There is no doubt that there were elements in both armies who would abuse each other. What else do you expect from two warring groups? It is natural that during war people abuse each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...