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Qa'im

The 4 Sunan: Will The Mahdi Be Imprisoned?

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(salam)
(bismillah)

 

Excellent Article! It is obvious that Sulaymaan b. Dawud al-Minqari was not a 12'er, and could not have heard directly from Abu Baseer. Just look at some main narrators he narrated from (all major Sunni narrators) and their dates of death. Not to mention Sulaymaan b. Dawud narrates from `Abd Allaah b. Wadaah, a companion of the 7th Imaam only, who was also a close companion of Abu Baseer, commonly called Saahib Abi Baseer.

 

al-Fudayl b. `Ayyaad (d. 187 AH)

Hafs b. Ghiyaath (d. 194 AH)

Sufyaan b. `Uyaynah (d. 198 AH)

`Abd al-Rahman b. Mahdi (d. 198 AH)

`Abd al-Razzaq b. Hammaam (d. 211) - Compiler of Musannaf `Abd al-Razzaq

 

Here is a little bit about Sulaymaan b. Dawud, it is obvious he was a major Sunni scholar. Click here: http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/showalam.php?ids=14555

 

(salam)

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Good article. Baraka Allahu feek Akhi.

 

I noticed that these mutashabih ahadith are sometimes a group of hadiths that were combined into one, sometimes there is deletion and sometimes there is insertion of words as well. Some of these hadiths are saheeh but were used in the wrong context with subtle alternations. This can be noted in the hadiths of many deviant sects.

 

I also have been told that many of these deviant hadith narrators were not close companions to Imams, I am not sure how correct is this statement though.

Another thing I noticed about the narrators is that some of them may not had been deviants but some deviant believes were attributed to them to give these beliefs credibility.

 

It is a whole messy confusing issue when you have to deal with the history of dead people that can hardly be verified, these narrators lived in times of turbulence, sects formations, aqidah innovations and times of hadith compilation.

 

Nonetheless , great article.

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Great article bro Qa'im & Dar'ul_Islam. I thank you for creating this and hope that you continue the series so the people will get a more balanced view from both the Twelver and Waqifi point of view regarding the issues.

I agree with your approach to see analyze the ahadith from their narrators since I believe that we should not accept ahadith on aqidah narrated by someone from other sects since they would have the vested interest to falsify the narrations. So unless the ahadith were corroborated with the ones with the same meaning narrated by Twelver narrators, I think the ahadith should be considered as solitary reports and rejected.

Therefore, I wonder why Shaykh Tusi felt the need to explain such ahadith when he could reject them altogether as you have done here.

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(bismillah)

Therefore, I wonder why Shaykh Tusi felt the need to explain such ahadith when he could reject them altogether as you have done here.

 

Akhi...we have answered this question for already in the other topic and elsewhere. Why do you keep asking it?

 

في أمان الله

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Fantastic work brothers, Jazakallah!

 

I remember reading in one of the other threads Brother Abdul Qaim asking for something like this, and MaashaAllah, its great to see such scholarly discussions :)

 

Keep up the good work.

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Bro Dar'ul Islam,

I haven't made it clear. What I meant is that's what I'd have asked once I finished reading the materials since it is not elaborated in the article. In fact, that's one of the argument used by the Waqifi: the non-rejection of Shaykh Tusi ("If this narration was not accepted, why Tusi tried to explain it instead of rejecting it?"). Perhaps, if I may make a suggestion, you can elaborate on that in the article.

Furthermore, please correct me if I'm wrong, what we have discussed was the general overview of why Shaykh Tusi tried to reconciliate contradicting ahadith and the ahadith from other sects (instead of rejecting it altogether). We have yet to discuss the non-rejection of Tusi for ahadith that most probably made after the creation of Waqifi sect that support the Waqifi sect such as this one. Again, I could be wrong on this and please correct me if I do.

Edited by rotten_coconut

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(salam)

Great article, may you be rewarded for your efforts. I look forward to reading the next articles in the series soon InshAllah.

 

Thank you. Article two has been posted here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235015198-perpetual-guidance-fee-saqut-part-deux/

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Bro Dar'ul Islam,

I haven't made it clear. What I meant is that's what I'd have asked once I finished reading the materials since it is not elaborated in the article. In fact, that's one of the argument used by the Waqifi: the non-rejection of Shaykh Tusi ("If this narration was not accepted, why Tusi tried to explain it instead of rejecting it?"). Perhaps, if I may make a suggestion, you can elaborate on that in the article.

Furthermore, please correct me if I'm wrong, what we have discussed was the general overview of why Shaykh Tusi tried to reconciliate contradicting ahadith and the ahadith from other sects (instead of rejecting it altogether). We have yet to discuss the non-rejection of Tusi for ahadith that most probably made after the creation of Waqifi sect that support the Waqifi sect such as this one. Again, I could be wrong on this and please correct me if I do.

 

Tusi was trying to provide explanations beyond "this hadith is weak". If you look at this book - Tusi's Ghayba - he makes an effort to collect the hadiths and works of Waqifis, Fat`his, ghulat, and others. The book is a comprehensive work on the topic of ghayba, and he preserved anything that had a historical relevance. Tusi's way of dealing with this hadith is one that gives an understanding to the narration in case it were true. We don't believe `Ali b. Abi Hamza was always lying, otherwise many of his traditions would not have been accepted in books like al-Kafi. But, an investigation of the tradition shows that his comparison is the only one - out of many examples - that discusses the imprisonment of the Mahdi. The explanation that `Ali b. Abi Hamza inserted this detail is better than the explanation that all of the other Yusuf-comparisons are fabricated, because the latter relies upon much better evidence.

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Bro Qa'im,

Thank you for the explanation. Sorry, since I haven't read the Kitab al-Ghaybah directly, was there any indication from Shaykh Tusi himself that a possible falsified hadith such as this one should be rejected (or considered weak) and the explanation given was only to point out that even if the hadith was realiable, there was other possible explanation? I think it there was such indication, it would better answer the Waqifi argument that I mentioned before.

Additionally, just to prevent from possible counter argument for your article, was there any 'ulama discussed this and using the same approach? While I (and I think the majority ShiaChat members) will agree on your approach, perhaps you will encounter someone who raises the argument that if your approach is correct, why no one has done it before.

Edited by rotten_coconut

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(salam)

Good job!

 

About the 4 prophets: The Imam's life-story base is that of Yusef(as) and then the other 3 added in. "Imprisonment" is not the same as Yusef's(as) but an isolation.

 

The Jews also have a reference to the Imam in their "deutero-Isaiah" where "the arm of"Allah(swt) is revealed to him, and to explain that he is not a political or other kind of threat to the Jews, as what he will say to them is limited.

Historically, The evilgelicals have claimed that this writing is about Isa(as) and many Sunni scholars have claimed this is about Muhammed(saws), neither of whom are correct because the description does not fit either one of them.

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(bismillah)

Bro Qa'im,

Thank you for the explanation. Sorry, since I haven't read the Kitab al-Ghaybah directly, was there any indication from Shaykh Tusi himself that a possible falsified hadith such as this one should be rejected (or considered weak) and the explanation given was only to point out that even if the hadith was realiable, there was other possible explanation? I think it there was such indication, it would better answer the Waqifi argument that I mentioned before.
Additionally, just to prevent from possible counter argument for your article, was there any 'ulama discussed this and using the same approach? While I (and I think the majority ShiaChat members) will agree on your approach, perhaps you will encounter someone who raises the argument that if your approach is correct, why no one has done it before.

In addition to what has already been said:

 

Shaykh Tusi [ra] is trying to be academic here, not a rijali. His approach in that book was apparently wider than just rijal and something more comprehensive. 

 

In any case, the reason this probably hasn't been said before or applied are perhaps a few reason:

1 - They did not catch Sulayman b. Dawud from Abu Baseer directly to be tadlees

2 - They do not apply rijal to hadith outside of the Ahkam

3 - The early scholars were not so "rijali"

4 - Accepting more of the akhbar is better (and safer) than denying akhbar

 

Also, by Tusi's time, the Waqifa were more or less dead. He didn't have to put effort the same way to destroy a sect like his predecessors رضي الله عنهم and neither did anyone after al-Tusi (ra) have to do so up until....1 month ago (?) cause the Waqifa was dead. Actually, they are still dead, the religion of Ali b. Abi Hamza & Humayd b. Ziyad is long gone and now what we have is the religion of Macisaac and his follower [notice the singular here and the absence of plural].

 

في أمان الله

Edited by Abu Tufayl

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See, the population has just grown by 50% in a matter of hours. At this rate there will be hundreds of Waqifa by years end.

 

subhanallah, where are the sign up sheets im in! Ya Reza A.S!

Edited by PureEthics

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There's no need to take jabs. We must deal with this issue with good akhlaq. At the same time, there are many good reasons why this sect died out in a short time span and no attempts were made to really revive it. InshaAllah we'll go over all of that in these articles.

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I think you may be ineligible for initiation  :P

 

:( Im making my own sect.. WaImami, where you can believe in the qiam of imam mahdi and imam musa a.s , the more qiams the better right? So therefore my religion is the best. Also im a scholar, I can hold one man friday prayers, I dont need any books, there has always been followers of this religion but they have been hiding in taqiyya, so now we are out and free. If anyone wants to join , call 1-800-Qiam, wa salaam

 

I forgot to add, first 100 gets free afghan food on me!

 

Ya Imam Musa! Ya Imam Mahdi!

Edited by PureEthics

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:( Im making my own sect.. WaImami, where you can believe in the qiam of imam mahdi and imam musa a.s , the more qiams the better right? So therefore my religion is the best. Also im a scholar, I can hold one man friday prayers, I dont need any books, there has always been followers of this religion but they have been hiding in taqiyya, so now we are out and free. If anyone wants to join , call 1-800-Qiam, wa salaam

 

I forgot to add, first 100 gets free afghan food on me!

 

Ya Imam Musa! Ya Imam Mahdi!

 

I am sorry I don't find it funny at all brother. You may want to scoff and mock them as much as you like, but there are other brothers here who are refuting it academically.

 

If brother Mac decides to go toe to toe with you in a public discussion, I won't be wrong to say, he'd swallow you whole.

 

Let's just sit aside and read what the knowledgeable brothers here have to share. I've learnt a heck lot and loving it from both sides - Waqifa and Shi'i. Much better than ridiculing others when we've got not much to share in a constructive way.

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I am sorry I don't find it funny at all brother. You may want to scoff and mock them as much as you like, but there are other brothers here who are refuting it academically.

 

If brother Mac decides to go toe to toe with you in a public discussion, I won't be wrong to say, he'd swallow you whole.

 

Let's just sit aside and read what the knowledgeable brothers here have to share. I've learnt a heck lot and loving it from both sides - Waqifa and Shi'i. Much better than ridiculing others when we've got not much to share in a constructive way.

Im sorry you didnt find it funny too brother. Plus, I wouldnt want to be swallowed by anyone, ewww. Also, no one can refute my religion because i accept all books from waqifi and imami, so how can you all prove me wrong ;) ? Rijali tactics wont work, I have proof my religion has been guided at all times... what else is there to argue?

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Im sorry you didnt find it funny too brother. Plus, I wouldnt want to be swallowed by anyone, ewww. Also, no one can refute my religion because i accept all books from waqifi and imami, so how can you all prove me wrong ;) ? Rijali tactics wont work, I have proof my religion has been guided at all times... what else is there to argue?

 

It's good to know your imaan is firm, but don't take the joke too far. Even Mac has a sense of humour about it all (as is evidenced by his change of avatar a few days ago), but remember your akhlaaq :) ...

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