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kadhim

Why Not Taqleed?

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(salam)

 

Yes,your post makes sense ,that's one of the major reasons why people don't follow a Marjaa

 

Some other points of why people don't follow marjaa ,that I have thought of  (that can be refuted of course)

 

  • Since it's a made man system, then no one is infallible so they don't believe in following a non-infallible leader 
  • it divides the shia ummah into many 'groups' , isn't our goal to unite for the Imam (ajtf)?
  • If marja's would truly base themselves on references and Hadith and primary sources, then why do they all differ in fatwaa's ?
  • Allah gave us 'Aql, let's use it, how bad can it be to think ,rather than to be controlled by those who think ?
  • So the main reason why the system of Ijtihaad has been created is to prepare for the arrival of the Imam by following true Islam, but the thing is that those fiqhi rules base themselves a lot on the ''how'' of a ritual, rather than the ''Why'', and the ''why'' is where all the philosophical and spiritual component related to the Imam is ..

 

Feel free to refute each point everyone .

Edited by -Enlightened

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(salam)

 

Yes,your post makes sense ,that's one of the major reasons why people don't follow a Marjaa

 

Some other points of why people don't follow marjaa ,that I have thought of  (that can be refuted of course)

 

  • Since it's a made man system, then no one is infallible so they don't believe in following a non-infallible leader 

Your not following a leader persay, since your marja is also following Imam Mahdi. You choose someone who knows that which is lawful and unlawful according to your time and age, and has dedicated his life to the religion. That is it, crystal clear. They derive fiqh.

 

 

 

  • it divides the shia ummah into many 'groups' , isn't our goal to unite for the Imam (ajtf)?

How does it divide our ummah? If you ask any marja followers what they think of other marja followers, the actual answer should be a good answer. Only those who seek to divide our ummah do so by bringing fitna amongst one another, it isnt caused by following a marja.

 

 

 

  • If marja's would truly base themselves on references and Hadith and primary sources, then why do they all differ in fatwaa's ?

Why does each doctor come up with a different method, yet all methods are valid? Simple, based on their experience and knowledge, they derived it in their own way. Same goes with Marjas.

 

 

 

  • Allah gave us 'Aql, let's use it, how bad can it be to think ,rather than to be controlled by those who think ?

 

Who said if one follows a marja should not use their own aql. It is just a logical and safer approach then depending on yourself. If you dont follow a marja, you will be held liable on deriving the law and following it. Plus it takes time to find it. I research and use my aql but I follow a marja...

 

 

  • So the main reason why the system of Ijtihaad has been created is to prepare for the arrival of the Imam by following true Islam, but the thing is that those fiqhi rules base themselves a lot on the ''how'' of a ritual, rather than the ''Why'', and the ''why'' is where all the philosophical and spiritual component related to the Imam is ..

 

The why is depend on you to figure out. That is part of the inner self.

 

Feel free to refute each point everyone .

 

Wa Salaam

Edited by PureEthics

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Thank you for this thread. It helped me understand a lot. A question: how does one get fiqhi rulings without resorting to taqleed?

If your going to a doctor, you need mediation to Cure your diseases, because you are not knowledgeable in the area of Anatomy.

The Same goes for religion, where you have the common man, who does not have the full knowledge in interrupting the verses of the Quran & ahadith from the prophet (pbuh) and the 12 Imams (as), so he must follow someone who has mastered this Area. When the Imam Mahdi (as) was in the short occultation, his last Safeer told the Followers of Ahlubayt to follow an "Alemm", for the major occultation is near. and remember Allah will never leave the earth without a teacher or Leader.

 

Taqlid literally means "to follow (someone)", "to imitate". In Islamic legal terminology it means to follow a mujtahid in religious laws and commandment as he has derived them. A mujtahid is a person who is an expert of Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh); he is also called a faqih. In order to see where and why the practice of taqlid gained acceptance in the Shi'i world, it is necessary first to explain it in some detail.

Man's nature dictates that he can only function properly within a society, and a society depends for its existence on laws and regulations. Islam teaches that Allah has sent a series of messengers and prophets with divine laws for man's guidance from the very beginning of his existence. The final Messenger and Prophet was Muhammad bin `Abdullah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his Household) who brought the last and most perfect of God's religious messages, Islam, which is to serve as a guide for mankind till the end of time.

Allah is the Creator of man and the universe, and so only He can, or has the right, to make laws for us. The prophets and messengers are merely the teachers and proclaimers of Allah's laws and regulations; they cannot make laws themselves. The teachings of Shi'ah Islam say that the Imam is the successor of the Prophet and acts as the preserver and interpreter of Islam and its divine law, the shari'ah. In the earliest period of Islamic history, the Prophet guided the Muslim community (ummah) in every step it made, and was there to solve all its difficulties. From the time of the first Imam, `Ali, until the death of the eleventh, the Imam Hasan al-`Askari, peace be upon them, the Shi'ah received guidance directly from the Imams. Then, during the period of the Lesser Occultation (al-ghaybatu 's-sughra) of the Twelfth Imam, he himself successively appointed four representatives1 who acted as the link between the Imam and his Shi'ahs. However, when the present Imam, peace be upon him, went into his Greater Occultation (al-ghaybatu 'l-kubra) in 329/941 in obedience to Allah's command, the Shi'ah were obliged to observetaqlid in their religious affairs.

 

Is taqlid reasonable in a time of widespread education?

It is not always reasonable to follow others and to hold uncritical faith in their opinions. We can distinguish four possible forms that imitation could take:

a) that of an ignorant person by an ignorant person,

b) that of a learned person by a more learned person,

c) that of an ignorant person by a learned person,

d) that of a learned person by a less learned person.

It is quite clear that the first three forms of imitation are unreasonable and can serve no purpose. However, the fourth kind is obviously not only reasonable, but also necessary and a matter of common sense; in our everyday life we follow and imitate others in many things; we like to feel that we are taking the advice of experts in matters outside our own knowledge. Someone who wishes to build a house explains the basic idea of what he wants to his builder and then submits to his advice as to how he should go about the actual construction; the invalid follows the treatment advised by his doctor; a litigant consults a lawyer when drawing up his case for presentation in court. The examples are abundant; in most cases the advice is taken voluntarily, but sometimes the citizen in a country may be required by law to seek expert advice and act upon it, before, for example, he is allowed to take some particularly dangerous drug. The clearest example is obviously in case of a legal dispute between two parties, where they are required to take their grievances before a judge and abide by his decision if they cannot settle their dispute amicably. The practice of taqlid is an example of the same kind: the person who is not an expert in jurisprudence is legally required to follow the instructions of the expert, i.e., the mujtahid. And in this case the requirement is an obligation which must be observed, for it is an essential part of the divine law.

It should be observed that taqlid pertains only to the realm of theshari'ah; there can be no taqlid in the matters of belief (usulu 'd-din). A Muslim must hold his belief in the fundamentals of his religion after attaining conviction of their truth through examination and reflection. The Qur'an very clearly condemns those who follow others blindly in matters of belief:

This strong condemnation of the idol-worshippers is repeated elsewhere:

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has sent down," they say, "No, but we will follow such things as we found our fathers doing." (2:170 and31:20)

And when it is said to them, "Come now to what Allah has sent down, and the Messenger," they say, "Enough for us is what we found our fathers doing". What, even if their fathers had knowledge of naught and were not rightly-guided? (5:104)

This does not mean that one must necessarily hold belief contrary to those of one's forefathers; what the Qur'an is saying is that one should not follow them blindly, i.e., without considering the validity of one's reasons for holding them. The Islamic attitude towards fundamental belief is that one may consider the views and opinions of others, but that one should only accept that which is reasonable to believe:

 

 

So give thou (O Muhammad!) good tidings to My servants who give ear to the word and follow the fairest of it. Those are they whom Allah has guided; those are men possessed of minds. (39:17)

 

 

To summarize, it may be said that the only approach to Islam is by accepting its tenets in such a way as one is entirely convinced of their validity, and this can only come about if one examines them carefully and conscientiously. Once one has come to accept these tenets it follows as a necessary consequence that one must adhere to theshari'ah, either by following a mujtahid in taqlid, or by undertaking the acquisition of learning and piety to such a degree that one becomes a mujtahid oneself.

 

The Qur'an instructs Muslims to seek guidance from people of learning in matters about which they lack knowledge:

 

 

"Question the people of remembrance if you do not know." (21:7)

 

It is an obligation in Islamic law to study everything which is necessary for the spiritual and material development and well-being of an Islamic community, but it is an obligation which is known aswajib kifa'i.* In the present instance, for example, an Islamic society has need of experts in the medical sciences, in physics and chemistry, engineering, education, and so forth, and as long as there is a lack of knowledge in these areas it is an obligation on the community as a whole to acquire it, which means that a group of Muslims should devote themselves to research so as to benefit the Islamic people as a whole. Similarly, an Islamic society without experts in the shari'ahcannot properly consider itself Islamic, so it is an obligation for a group of persons from this society to devote themselves to the study of the religious sciences, so as to provide divine guidance for all Muslims. This is the meaning contained in the verse of the Qur'an which states:

"But why should not a party from every section of them (the believers) go forth to become learned in the religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that they may beware?" (9:124)

It is clear that the Imams used to be pleased if any of their companions taught religion or gave legal rulings (fatwa) to others. There are a number of documented cases of Shi'ahs who lived far from Medina asking the Imam of the time to appoint someone in their locality to adjudicate between them in religious problems. Zakariyyah ibn Adam al-Qummi and Yunus bin `Abduí r-Rahman, for example, were named by Imam `Ali ar-Rida' to solve disputes in their own districts.2 In a famous hadith, `Umar ibn Hanzalah asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, peace be upon him, about the legality of two Shi'ahs seeking a verdict from an illegitimate ruler in a dispute over a debt or a legacy. The Imam's answer was that it was absolutely forbidden to do so. Then Ibn Hanzalah asked what the two should do, and the Imam replied: "They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism."3

In another tradition from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, this time narrated by Imam Hasan al-`Askari, peace be upon them, he says, "...but if there is anyone among the fuqaha' who is in control over his own self, protects his religion, suppresses his evil desires and is obedient to the commands of his Master, then the people should follow him."4

A third hadith is from the Present Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub: "As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."5 We can understand two things from these verses of the Qur'an and the ahadith of the Imams: 1) there must always be a group of fuqaha' in every Muslim society; 2) those who are not qualified as fuqaha' or mujtahids, must follow one, and that to go against his instruction in religious matters is tantamount to polytheism. 

________________________________________________

 

 The necessary conditions for qualification as amujtahid

It can easily be inferred from the second of the ahadith cited above that becoming an expert in fiqh and the other Islamic sciences is not in itself enough for qualification as a mujtahid whom everyone can follow. In addition to this, Islamic law lays down that a mujtahidshould be a free man of legitimate birth who is past the age of puberty, sane, an Ithna-`ashari Shi'ah, and `adil, (which can be translated as 'just', but which includes other moral and legal qualities, such as piety and abstention from all that the shari`ah forbids and fulfillment of all its obligations).

As to the question of how an ordinary believer should discover who is the mujtahid he must follow, there are three recognized ways: 1) by his own personal knowledge if he is himself a religious scholar; 2) by the testimony of two `adil, knowledgeable persons to someone's being a mujtahid; 3) by a degree of popularity which leaves no doubt as to a person's being a mujtahid.

Most present day `ulama' maintain that it is most desirable to follow a mujtahid who is al-a`lam. In a general sense this means 'the most learned', but in this specific contexts it means the faqih who has the greatest expertise in deriving the rulings of the shari`ah from the sources. The a`lam may be recognized in any of the three ways amujtahid can.6 However, it is sometimes difficult for the Shi'ah`ulama' to distinguish whom among all the fuqaha' is the most learned, and, as a result, more than one mujtahid may be followed in taqlid at one time (though not, of course, by the same person), as is the case at present, but any such multiplicity does not result in any practical disagreement on legal matters within the Shi'ah community.

 

 

Why are there differences among the mujtahids in their legal opinions?

 

Many people wonder why it is that the mujtahids differ in their religious opinions, or fatwas, when the bases of their ijtihad are the same. Firstly, it should be said that any differences in the fatwas is hardly ever such as to be contradictory; it is almost impossible to find a case of one mujtahid saying some action is wajib and another saying it is haram.

Take, for instance, the case of salatu 'l-jum`ah, the Friday prayer. All the Shi'ah `ulama' are of the opinion that in the time of the presence of the Imam this salat is obligatory on Fridays, because it is the Imam, or his representative, who has the right to call the people to Friday prayer; but they differ as to what is the correct course of action when the Imam is in Occultation. This difference of opinion does not, however, create any practical problem for the community. The late Ayatullah as-Sayyid Muhsin al-Hakim (d. 1970) was one of the opinion that salatu 'l-jum`ah is not obligatory during the Occultation of the Imam, but it does not matter if someone performs it supposing that it is expected (of him), provided that he also prays the noon prayer (salatu 'z-zuhr). Ayatullah as-Sayyid Abu 'l-Qasim al-Khu'i says that "one can choose between performing salatu 'z-zuhr or salatu 'l-jum`ah, but once the latter is established with all its conditions (fulfilled), it is precautionarily obligatory to participate in it." Ayatullah as-Sayyid Ruhullah al-Khumayni says that "one can choose between performing salatu 'z-zuhr or salatu 'l-jum`ah, but if one chooses the latter it is advisable (mustahab) to precautionarily perform salatu 'z-zuhr also."7 Although there are these differences in the opinions of these mujtahids, there is no clash that would, for example, prevent the follower (muqallid) of one of them participating in salatu 'l-jum`ah if it were established.

Secondly, it should be observed that the existence of differences in scientific opinions is not to be taken as a sign of a substantial defect in the quest for knowledge and a reason for abandoning it altogether; it is, rather, a sign that knowledge moves in progressive steps towards perfection. Differences of opinions are to be found in all sciences, not just in fiqh. There may, for example, be more than one opinion about the therapy for a particular patient's disease, and all of these opinions may be superseded later on by the development of new methods of dealing with that disease. Thus these observations can be seen to be relevant not only to differences between the opinions of contemporary scientists but also to historical differences, and all these differences should be regarded as signs of the dynamism within a science and stages to be passed in its route to perfection.

It should be remembered that the mujtahid formulates his opinions after pushing his research and study as far as he can; that is all that is expected of him, for he is neither inerrant nor an `alim bi 'l-ghayb(knower of the unseen). The muqallid is enjoined to follow his opinions. So, even if the mujtahid's fatwa is not actually in agreement with Allah's real command, neither he will be punished on the Day of Judgement for having issued the fatwa, nor will hismuqallid for having acted according to it, for both will have done what was commanded of them and what was humanly possible for them to do.

________________________________

Notes:

 

1. These four representatives were: `Uthman ibn Sa`id al-`Amri, from 260/875-6 to 265/879; Muhammad ibn `Uthman al-`Amri, from his father's death until his own in 305/917; Husayn ibn Rawh an-Nawbakthi, from then until 326/937-8; and finally `Ali ibn Muhammad as-Samari until his death in 329/940-1.

2. Shaykh Hurr al-`Amili, Wasa'ilu 'sh-Shi`ah, vol. 18, Tehran 1401 A.H., pp. 106-7.

3. Shaykh al-Kulayni, Furu`u 'l-Kafi, vol. 7, Tehran 1379, p. 412.

4. Shaykh at-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, vo. 2, Najaf 1966, p. 263.

5. Ibid, p. 283.

6. For these and further rulings concerning the marja'u 't-taqlid see Sayyid Muhammad Kazim at-Tabataba'i al-Yazdi, al-`Urwatu'l-Wuthqa', Tehran 1972 (published with the annotations of the contemporary maraji'), p. 5.

7. See their respective compilations of fatwas known as Tawdihu 'l-masa'il under rulings nos. 733, 737 and 741. 

* Wajib kifa'i = the obligation which is on every member of the community as long as it is unfulfilled, but as soon as some person, or persons, has fulfilled it, it is no longer an obligation on those who have not fulfilled it.

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If your going to a doctor, you need mediation to Cure your diseases, because you are not knowledgeable in the area of Anatomy.

The Same goes for religion, where you have the common man, who does not have the full knowledge in interrupting the verses of the Quran & ahadith from the prophet  (pbuh) and the 12 Imams  (as), so he must follow someone who has mastered this Area. When the Imam Mahdi  (as) was in the short occultation, his last Safeer told the Followers of Ahlubayt to follow an "Alemm", for the major occultation is near. and remember Allah will never leave the earth without a teacher or Leader.

Asalaamu alaikum,

 

I do not accept your analogy at all because it does not make sense in comparison to the issue at hand.  While studying pharmacology I was required to do a report on the accuracy for which I could determine what medication a person would be prescribed upon going to the doctor for various ailments.  I was correct 96% of the time.  3% of the time I was correct but had the wrong bonding agent (which does not affect the result of the drug, it merely changes the dosing).  Only 1% of the time was I completely wrong.  I had come nowhere near the knowledge of a doctor but I was right 99% of the time.  8 months vs 8 years of study, and I was almost always right.  The second reason this analogy is bad is because if I go to see a doctor, I look at a variety of factors such as location, insurance compatibility, and personal preference (who I like better).  I do not take into account who is most knowledgeable as that Usuli claim is the most important factor.  I don't think you should be using secular logic to derive your own rulings because your analogy has failed me.  Logic would also dictate that a human being can not live as long as the 12th Imam has lived.  Does that mean we reject it?  

 

Just because the 12th Imam said to follow an aalim does not mean that the followers of Ahl al-Bayt must follow the modern man-made system of taqleed.  Show me a Sahih, Hassan, or Mutawatir hadith where the 12th Imam said taqleed involves the following:

  1. Marja must be the most knowledgeable
  2. You can not change your marja unless you are sure that the new one is more knowledgeable
  3. You can not follow a dead marja unless you were following him before he died
  4. The marja is a representative of the Imam
  5. The marja has the right to create new fatwas based on modern circumstances
  6. A marja is recognized as a real marja by the acceptance of the other marjas
  7. A syed marja can wear a black turban while a non-sayed marja can only wear a white turban
  8. Taqleed is required
  9. You can only follow one marja

If you can prove all of the above points to me using only the Qur'an and Sahih, Hassan, or Mutawatir hadiths, then I will become an Usuli.  If you can only prove them through "logic", weak hadiths, or fatwas from marjas, then I will not become an Usuli.

 

The rest of your post was useless.  It was only a massive quote from al-islam.org.  I have read that article before.  I am unconvinced.

 

Wa alaikum asalaam

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My Point, is that the common man must Follow a leader in his jurisprudence.
unless you on the level of being "muhtat", =)   


Asalaamu alaikum,

 

I do not accept your analogy at all because it does not make sense in comparison to the issue at hand.  While studying pharmacology I was required to do a report on the accuracy for which I could determine what medication a person would be prescribed upon going to the doctor for various ailments.  I was correct 96% of the time.  3% of the time I was correct but had the wrong bonding agent (which does not affect the result of the drug, it merely changes the dosing).  Only 1% of the time was I completely wrong.  I had come nowhere near the knowledge of a doctor but I was right 99% of the time.  8 months vs 8 years of study, and I was almost always right.  The second reason this analogy is bad is because if I go to see a doctor, I look at a variety of factors such as location, insurance compatibility, and personal preference (who I like better).  I do not take into account who is most knowledgeable as that Usuli claim is the most important factor.  I don't think you should be using secular logic to derive your own rulings because your analogy has failed me.  Logic would also dictate that a human being can not live as long as the 12th Imam has lived.  Does that mean we reject it?  

 

Just because the 12th Imam said to follow an aalim does not mean that the followers of Ahl al-Bayt must follow the modern man-made system of taqleed.  Show me a Sahih, Hassan, or Mutawatir hadith where the 12th Imam said taqleed involves the following:

  1. Marja must be the most knowledgeable
  2. You can not change your marja unless you are sure that the new one is more knowledgeable
  3. You can not follow a dead marja unless you were following him before he died
  4. The marja is a representative of the Imam
  5. The marja has the right to create new fatwas based on modern circumstances
  6. A marja is recognized as a real marja by the acceptance of the other marjas
  7. A syed marja can wear a black turban while a non-sayed marja can only wear a white turban
  8. Taqleed is required
  9. You can only follow one marja

If you can prove all of the above points to me using only the Qur'an and Sahih, Hassan, or Mutawatir hadiths, then I will become an Usuli.  If you can only prove them through "logic", weak hadiths, or fatwas from marjas, then I will not become an Usuli.

 

The rest of your post was useless.  It was only a massive quote from al-islam.org.  I have read that article before.  I am unconvinced.

 

Wa alaikum asalaam


Also the points you stated, I did not say they were Wajab,(obligatory) 

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i would just like to answer 2 points sister enlightened raised:

taqleed is anti unity

this is undeniably true and you are a fool if you think otherwise. in karbala i witnessed 2 jamaats of maghrib in the same courtyard simultaneously, because both groups did different taqleed. is this unity?

taqleed is meant to be based on hadith from imams

it isnt. most taqleedis know this but are too scared to lose face on sc so wont admit it. go ahead and tell me khamenei found hadith that say music is halal n chess is halal from hadith? or sayyed sistani that gambling (lottery) is found in hadith.

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(Salam)

 

Thank you pureethics for the points that you tried to refute, but I can also refute yours back :P

 

I'd rather be a primary follower of Imam Mahdi, rather than a secondary follower .. There are still 313 seats left

 

I will be honest, I have never believed in Taqleed but I respect all marjaa, i especially enjoy listening to sayed mohamed redha AlShirazi on youtube and I also like it when Khamenai gives speeches and everybody screams 'Allahu Akbar', I haven't seen a more powerful unity than this one.. I also like sayed sistani's piety.. (it doesn't mean that I agree with all of them and follow them like a sheep) 

But all those scholars are indeed important to lecture us , and we should try as much as possible to have them as role models.

 

For me, each marjaa is good and should be listened to but they aren't meant to be 'worshiped' or 'stricly followed' and we shouldn't be told that ''our actions aren't accepted by Allah if we don't have a marjaa?'' that reason is just too flawed. I am still a believer of the Ahlulbayt and the quran ,even if I don't follow a marjaa, why wouldn't my actions be accepted ??

 

Before making a decision or an action, the secret is to think ''What would Imam Mahdi do if he was in my shoes'' . For instance, lets say I am doubting whether i prayed 2 rukaat or 3 for fajr, then i ask myself why am I doubting ? was it because I was thinking of something else during prayer (dunya stuff?)  then if this was the case, then i should repeat the whole prayer, dunya should not distract me from my time with God. 

I put myself in the shoes of Imam as much as possible, and this only increases my relationship with the Imam.. I think all shia's SHOULD do this, trust me , the imam would reappear at no time .

 

Alright, here are my top 13 reasons for not following a marjaa, i made the list back in november 2012

People, I'm not Akhbari !

 you can count me as an Agnostic Akhbari that used to be in Taqqiyah, that changed from Khamenai to sistani to shirazi to everyone and to just nothing . :p

 

1-    Its a man made system.. and a man is not infallible ,any man can make mistakes in a fatwa ..even the one's that you chose crystal clear like PureEthics suggested 

 

2-It divides the shia Ummah into different groups. Our goal is unity but with different scholars, we have division (just like MDM explained)

 

3-Most fatwa's are based on Mustahab issues, not wajib issue..if they were wajib, the answers would be in the hadith or in the quran and most marjaa do not give answers based on hadith, they give answers based on their personal opinion ..for example, if you go on a site and you ask ''is it permissible to do that?'' the marjaa will go like '' yes it is ..or not its not'' but he wont refer his answer to a hadith and say '''well, according to imam sadiq, this is bad...''

 

4-I can agree with a fatwa and logically disagree with another fatwa,, i can never follow a marjaa entirely because there is always a disagreement with another of his fatwa . if he tell me that eid is in 3 days, while the moon is right in front of me, i have no choice to disagree with him .. 

 

5-Disagreeing with a marjaa doesn't mean that I'm following my desires.. following desires mean that I'm skipping prayers, i'm procrastinating , i decided not to fast.. and believe it or not : i have never skipped any prayers in my whole life.. I'm sure that I'm NOT following my desires when it comes to making conclusions about certain issues...not if you claim that yes i do follow my desires,then marjaa' are the same too..because they're giving personal opinion based on logic (just like me)..

5a- Also, whenever i try to answer a  fiqh question , i arrive at the same conclusion of the marja'a !

 

6-A marjaa himself can disagree with another marjaa,, why shouldn't their follower disagree with their own leader ? I mean, I can agree partially with a part of what my marjaa says, but disagree with another part..

 

7-I dont need an ijtihad degree to know whether or not wearing make up in public is haram or any such question.. I have the answer for this already in the quran , verse about hiding the beauty and wearing Hijab in surat noor .. (i noticed that questions like that are the most -asked to the marjaa...) It seems that people are lazy to search in the quran ..

 

8-Fatwa's are based upon Ulema's opinion and not hadith..if it was hadith, every marjaa would arrive to one same conclusion  (actually, I just understood that the whole debate is upon the TAFSIR of these hadiths,based on their opinion..so hmm okay)

 

9- If no one has sighted the moon, i dont understand why I should listen to what my marjaa has to say on that .. the marjaa himself has not sighted the moon and he cant receive a divine revelation that says on which day its eid ..

 

10- as for the Khums ,paying it to your poorest local marja is the best act of kindness..or donating it to the shrine of imams , I would personally give mine to masjid Sahla :)

 

11)  a person can not represent an entire population

 

a scholar can not represent and preach for each person ,because each person has different needs and intentions..therefore his fatwa and rules  can not be applied to every person 

 

for example, if a person asks whether or not wearing socks during prayers is wajib..then here, it depends on the intention (that only Allah can know) . That person maybe has no money to buy socks, in this case it would be permissible not to wear... or that person wants to show their beauty, in this cae its haram but if that person jut wants to avoid bad smelly feet, she can take the socks off..it depends on each situation and we can not generalize and make general fatwa's by being like ''it is haram!!''

 

you see here, the fatwa of the marjaai can not be applied to everyone universally 

 

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Sis Enlightened Mashallah very concise and well spoken. I would agree with you on all the points you raised. its really not that difficult to be critical of taqleed if you only take a step back and think for yourself.

 

the key thing here is qiyaamat.

 

let me challenge any usooli right now.

 

if your marjas make halal what is actually haram, and you do this haram act (such as playing chess or gambling), even though deep down you know it is haram but are using the legal loophole of your marja allowing it, on qiyaamat, will you be answerable for your own actions, or will your marja?

 

the quran says quite clearly that each person is responsible for their own actions. so this is what i believe. the taqleedi PR force make usooli believe that marjas will somehow be our intercessors on qiyaamat so will "take" our sins if they make a mistake. this is nonsense.

 

does the quran say on qiyaamat that we will be raised with the imams we follow, or the marjas we follow?

 

nobody is denying that marjas are more learned. no one is saying we should ignore them completely.

 

instead, people like me (and enlightened?) believe that we should refer to them, but not be mindlessly controlled by them. Allah gave each of us aql. Allah made each of us responsible for ourselves on qiyaamat, so we must act according to our sincere intentions, using marjas advice as a guiding light, not the hukm of an imam. on qiyaamat we will be questioned about what we did. remember that.

 

finally, remember the quran states that Allah punished the jews because they made their priests into their rabb. let us not make the same mistakes my brothers and sisters.

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To add; the institution of Taqleed is antiquated to a large extent. It outputs simplistic responses to complex issues that utterly fail to live up to the standard of rigorous analysis, especially in the realms of specialisation. It doesn't compensate at all for the deliberate masking of law derivation from the specific primary sources.

If Taqleed is to become relevant, in any way useful to our contemporary reality, it needs to integrate varying viewpoints within secular sciences to produce better, insightful guidance. Currently, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Also, with all due respect there appears to be a subtle form of arrogance among the elite of scholarship. That they aren't willing to share their delineation of hadith derivation is indicative that they perceive their followers as intellectually inferior and incompetent. It is as if they are willingly ignoring the holy verses urging mankind to engage their minds. Fact is, if the scholars show their method to the public then they can collate outside advice and review their method or interpretation of hadith to reach a firmer conclusion than before.

The elitist, exclusivist mentality must be neutralised to realise that the truth can be attained collectively.

It only takes people of reason to realise and initiate needed reform.

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To add; the institution of Taqleed is antiquated to a large extent. It outputs simplistic responses to complex issues that utterly fail to live up to the standard of rigorous analysis, especially in the realms of specialisation. It doesn't compensate at all for the deliberate masking of law derivation from the specific primary sources.

If Taqleed is to become relevant, in any way useful to our contemporary reality, it needs to integrate varying viewpoints within secular sciences to produce better, insightful guidance. Currently, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Also, with all due respect there appears to be a subtle form of arrogance among the elite of scholarship. That they aren't willing to share their delineation of hadith derivation is indicative that they perceive their followers as intellectually inferior and incompetent. It is as if they are willingly ignoring the holy verses urging mankind to engage their minds. Fact is, if the scholars show their method to the public then they can collate outside advice and review their method or interpretation of hadith to reach a firmer conclusion than before.

The elitist, exclusivist mentality must be neutralised to realise that the truth can be attained collectively.

It only takes people of reason to realise and initiate needed reform.

 

Hey Rosarch (or how ever its spelled) nice of you to create a new account. How many is that now like 5 ?

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Some people ask: why should we abandon our knowledge and thinking and replace it with the scholar's? This question shows a false assumption and lack of knowledge about the taqleed system. 

 

If you're an expert and know that something is haram, and the scholar allows it, you are not allowed to do that. Similarly, if the person you're following says doing something (like eating tuna) is not ok and because of your science degree or whatever you find out that it is in fact ok to do, you can't suspend your findings and blindly follow that person. Your responsibility is to inform the scholar of the new research and fix their instructions. 

 

Taqleed is not a system of suspending your knowledge, it is a system of asking those who know more than you. 

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...if the scholars show their method to the public...

 

 

They have, in arabic. So your whole point about the `Ulema's arrogance and elitism is moot.

 

Though I do believe that the laity should feel more comfortable reading our primary texts and the ahadith of the Infallibles [a] first hand and not always take recourse in the words of scholars_alone_, especially as regards matters of `aqaid. It's laymen who take the words of the scholars as the end all who foster the idea of an elitist system where the commoners must submit to the words of those in the upper echelons. That's not to say asking those more knowledgeable than you is in any way shameful though, in fact the case is quite the opposite.

Edited by MFAHH

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They have, in arabic. So your whole point about the `Ulema's arrogance and elitism is moot.

It's not very accessible to the vast majority of Anglophone populations, neither are these elucidatory texts widely distributed the way the masa'il books are distributed en masse.

Is it really too much to ask that the online answers for individual queries are accompanied with a short explanation of the interpretation of a few relevant hadiths from which the verdict is derived? It's not difficult to be succinct, definitely shouldn't be for a renowned scholar.

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It's not very accessible to the vast majority of Anglophone populations, neither are these elucidatory texts widely distributed the way the masa'il books are distributed en masse.

Is it really too much to ask that the online answers for individual queries are accompanied with a short explanation of the interpretation of a few relevant hadiths from which the verdict is derived? It's not difficult to be succinct, definitely shouldn't be for a renowned scholar.

 

The scholars have published their justifications, and people do regularly go and read them (in Islamic seminaries around the world). The masses won't bother learning all the details in any field, not just religion. They're concerned with the 'do this, avoid this' takeaways. This is not the scholars' problem, they've done what they can.

 

There are many important books in Shia Islam yet to be translated. If you're able to, can you help translate and upload some of their works online? Inshallah it will help other Shiachatters like you. 

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It's not very accessible to the vast majority of Anglophone populations, neither are these elucidatory texts widely distributed the way the masa'il books are distributed en masse.

Is it really too much to ask that the online answers for individual queries are accompanied with a short explanation of the interpretation of a few relevant hadiths from which the verdict is derived? It's not difficult to be succinct, definitely shouldn't be for a renowned scholar.

 

There are a ton of works yet to be translated into English because, as aliasghark said, most people are only concerned with the 'do's and dont's' and that's the sad reality. Much of what's available to Anglophones on Islam is rudimentary and superficial. The `ulema though are clear of this charge because they've made their methodologies accessible as far as they can. The blame lies in part with some of those in western scholarship who find it more pertinent to translate works on philosophy and mysticism than works related to the ahadith of our Infallible Leaders [a], and in part to the archetypal religious western Muslim who, by in large, purchases books on `aqli Islamic topics as opposed to naqli [save for in the case of polemics]. If there was a greater interest, as there should be, in fiqh and ahadeeth, then more publishers would find reason to distribute translations of specialised books on these topics.

 

And a lot of the time, the process of arriving at a ruling comes about through an arduous process and often times with tens of pages of explanatory premises based on quranic ayaahs, ahadith, ijma` etc with `ilm ar-rijal and a whole lot of other methods of analysis factored into the mix. So it'll be hard to be succinct. Anyhow, it's not usually 'renowned scholars' who answer e-mail queries..

Edited by MFAHH

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Thank you for this thread. It helped me understand a lot. A question: how does one get fiqhi rulings without resorting to taqleed?

Well, as I understand it, there are hadith collections out there that are carefully arranged so as to be straightforward references for fiqh. You want to learn what the ahadith say about prayers, or fasting, or whatever, you go to the appropriate section or subsection, and read it. For the vast majority of practical issues, you just read the answer from there. One of our four major hadith collections is literally called "He who has no faqih present." These books are only in Arabic though.

Now, I mean, if you feel you need to have an official halal/haram answer on the appropriateness of something completely novel that doesn't clearly come under one of the explicit general principles laid out in hadith, something like human cloning or organ transplants or taking out a mortgage, you'll have trouble. But then again, it's debatable whether we're really expected to need to know a halal/haram on such things that were never mentioned. It really becomes such a subjective, speculative game when you get beyond what there is clear direct evidence for. Perhaps for these other newer things, the proper role of the ulema is less to pretend to have "the right answer," but simply to try to shed some moral light by pointing out the moral principles that we should consider as a society in making decisions.

Edited by kadhim

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Taqlid in the Qur'an and ahadith

The Qur'an instructs Muslims to seek guidance from people of learning in matters about which they lack knowledge:

 

"Question the people of remembrance if you do not know." (21:7)

 

It is an obligation in Islamic law to study everything which is necessary for the spiritual and material development and well-being of an Islamic community, but it is an obligation which is known as wajib kifa'i.* In the present instance, for example, an Islamic society has need of experts in the medical sciences, in physics and chemistry, engineering, education, and so forth, and as long as there is a lack of knowledge in these areas it is an obligation on the community as a whole to acquire it, which means that a group of Muslims should devote themselves to research so as to benefit the Islamic people as a whole. Similarly, an Islamic society without experts in the shari'ah cannot properly consider itself Islamic, so it is an obligation for a group of persons from this society to devote themselves to the study of the religious sciences, so as to provide divine guidance for all Muslims. This is the meaning contained in the verse of the Qur'an which states:

It is clear that the Imams used to be pleased if any of their companions taught religion or gave legal rulings (fatwa) to others. There are a number of documented cases of Shi'ahs who lived far from Medina asking the Imam of the time to appoint someone in their locality to adjudicate between them in religious problems. Zakariyyah ibn Adam al-Qummi and Yunus bin `Abduí r-Rahman, for example, were named by Imam `Ali ar-Rida' to solve disputes in their own districts.2"But why should not a party from every section of them (the believers) go forth to become learned in the religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that they may beware?" (9:124)

 

In a famous hadith, `Umar ibn Hanzalah asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, peace be upon him, about the legality of two Shi'ahs seeking a verdict from an illegitimate ruler in a dispute over a debt or a legacy. The Imam's answer was that it was absolutely forbidden to do so. Then Ibn Hanzalah asked what the two should do, and the Imam replied: "They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism."3

 

In another tradition from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, this time narrated by Imam Hasan al-`Askari, peace be upon them, he says, "...but if there is anyone among the fuqaha' who is in control over his own self, protects his religion, suppresses his evil desires and is obedient to the commands of his Master, then the people should follow him."4

 

A third hadith is from the Present Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub: "As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."5

 

We can understand two things from these verses of the Qur'an and the ahadith of the Imams: 1) there must always be a group of fuqaha' in every Muslim society; 2) those who are not qualified as fuqaha' or mujtahids, must follow one, and that to go against his instruction in religious matters is tantamount to polytheism.

 

 

I dont wanna make this a copy and paste thread but I highly suggest some of these links because they contain specific hadith on marja and clearly answers repetitive questions some are having. If you can please check out these links first before you post a anti marja comment again. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

 

http://islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3004

http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/books/fiqh&usool/ijtihad-taqleed-&-marjaa/Ijtihad-taqleed-&-marjaa.htm

http://www.islamic-laws.com/taqlid.htm (It contains Q&A on questions regarding this, hadith, and other research papers by top ulema dissecting this issue)

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/ijtihad/

Taqlid flow charts (Very interesting flow chart on the system of marja)

Identifying the Most learned .pdf

Role of Ijtihad in Legislation  by Martyr Murtadha Muttahari

Edited by PureEthics

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Respected brother PureEthics and others

 

nobody is denying that we should follow marjas. no one is claiming we should ignore them and make it up as we go along. most of them are men of god and it is waajib to respect them (waajibul ehtaraam)

 

we have more in common with each other than we have differences. we all are united under the banner of wilayat and awaiting the return of the hidden imam (atf)

 

our only difference is the degree at which we follow marjas.

 

if you believe (as i do) that on qiyaamat only you are responsible for your own actions, and Allah is best judge of your intentions, then if a marja makes something halal which is actually clearly haram you must ignore the marja and follow your own intentions. Allah gave us all aql. if you genuinely do not know the answer, then take a look at the evidence presented by as many marjas as possible that is available to you then make an informed choice, with the best of intentions. this is what i do.

 

if you believe that the marja will somehow "take" your sins on qiyaamat so you dont need to worry if something is halal or haram all you gotta do is follow the fatwas, then by all means continue to blindly follow and trust your marja.

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^None of this ultimately speaks to the subject at hand though. The imams designated people they trusted to settle disputes and answer questions in their absence, yes. But the key question is how. What these people did was settle questions according to the known verdicts taught by the imams. Do you really think for a minute that they would have even dared to give an answer on something the imams had not talked about, something that wasn't an unambiguous application of a known principle taught by the imams explicitly. You think they would have made up something from their own speculations and presented it as a definite answer? They would have viewed such a thing as heresy.

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If you know the principle well (and you're knowledgable of related subjects), it's not that hard to logically deduce specific details and examples. Why would this be heresy? 

 

If we should only be complying by explicit statements of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt, what would you do about things that didn't exist back then? Is it OK to watch TV? 

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If you know the principle well (and you're knowledgable of related subjects), it's not that hard to logically deduce specific details and examples. Why would this be heresy? 

 

If we should only be complying by explicit statements of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt, what would you do about things that didn't exist back then? Is it OK to watch TV?

That argument doesn't have a base. Search for different approaches of present scholars in Ilm e rijaal, in principles of usool Al fiqh etc., and you may not say what you imply.

And as brother kadhim pointed earlier "would Allah azwj hide something explicitly and expect you to understand implicitly and come up with approaches which lead to varying explicities?"

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OK, let's take this step by step. According to Islam, is it alright to watch TV? Please provide a proper basis for your answer. 

 

all things are halal unless they are specifically listed as haram

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In general, you'd find it OK, simply because it's not mentioned. Very very easy. In terms of specific content, of what to watch, you'd look at principles about lewd or vain entertainments for guidance.

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What these people did was settle questions according to the known verdicts taught by the imams. Do you really think for a minute that they would have even dared to give an answer on something the imams had not talked about, something that wasn't an unambiguous application of a known principle taught by the imams explicitly. You think they would have made up something from their own speculations and presented it as a definite answer? They would have viewed such a thing as heresy.

 

 

That's very apparent from the hadiths themselves.  The other thing that renders this example invalid is that the people were obviously not going to be doing taqlid to said companions - i.e. they were not anything close to being marja`s - as the Imams were present.  One of the fundamental basis' of doing taqlid to a marja` is under the belief that the latter is the most knowledgeable person of his time, while clearly the Imam would have been more knowledgable than a companion.  So as such, this can't be used as an example of taqlid.

 

If we should only be complying by explicit statements of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt, what would you do about things that didn't exist back then? Is it OK to watch TV? 

 

 

And what do you think scholars are doing when you ask them such questions that don't have an explicit answer from the ahadith?  They don't have some secret treasury of hidden hadiths to refer to, and no they aren't going and asking the Imam themselves, so basically it comes down to this: they're giving you what amounts to their best guess based on the principles they have.  Why should someone be obligated to following what amounts to someone else's guess though?

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In general, you'd find it OK, simply because it's not mentioned. Very very easy. In terms of specific content, of what to watch, you'd look at principles about lewd or vain entertainments for guidance.

 

So then anything not specifically mentioned is OK to do? 

And what do you think scholars are doing when you ask them such questions that don't have an explicit answer from the ahadith?  They don't have some secret treasury of hidden hadiths to refer to, and no they aren't going and asking the Imam themselves, so basically it comes down to this: they're giving you what amounts to their best guess based on the principles they have.  Why should someone be obligated to following what amounts to someone else's guess though?

 

I'd take the guess of an expert over my own. 

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I'd take the guess of an expert over my own. 

 

 

Your preference is one thing, the question is are you obligated to do so.  And secondly, is a jurist allowed to pass off his guess as an actual ruling, making it out to be what the divine law itself says?  How to reconcile that with the instructions of the Imams in such a situation? e.g.:

 

 

[ 33156 ] 6 ـ وعنه ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن الوشاء ، عن مثنى الحناط ، عن أبي بصير ، قال : قلت لابي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : ترد علينا أشياء ليس نعرفها في كتاب الله ولا سنة فننظر فيها ؟ فقال : لا أما أنك إن أصبت لم توجر ، وإن أخطأت كذبت على الله . 
 
[al-Kafi] Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Washsha from Muthanna the stuffer from Abu Baseer.  He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Things come to us which we do not recognize from the book of Allah nor a Sunna, so we speculate in it.  So he said: No, should you hit the mark you are not rewarded and should you be mistaken you would have lied against Allah.

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