Did Jesus Not Die From The Crucifixion

[andres]

The Quran has got its own narratives of The birth of Jesus and Joseph in Egypt. Since they differ from the older narratives in the Bible in some details, they can be seen as a correction of the corrupted Bible. Why was this so important, when in comparison with the death of Jesus, that is a profound difference between our religions, the Quran has astonishing little to say? This puzzles me. No narrative here. If Jesus did not die on the cross, then what happened? Was his spirit raised to heaven before his body was nailed to the cross, or was another person crucified in his place?

It is not convincing to refute a detailled narrative witnessed by independent witnesses with a short "they killed him not". Especially not so when you claim an angel told you so 700 years later.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

The Quran has got its own narratives of The birth of Jesus and Joseph in Egypt. Since they differ from the older narratives in the Bible in some details, they can be seen as a correction of the corrupted Bible. Why was this so important, when in comparison with the death of Jesus, that is a profound difference between our religions, the Quran has astonishing little to say? This puzzles me. No narrative here. If Jesus did not die on the cross, then what happened? Was his spirit raised to heaven before his body was nailed to the cross, or was another person crucified in his place?

The Qur'an doesn't need to give you a thousand reasons why Jesus (as) didn't die on the Cross. I think for most people having God say so Himself is a good enough reason itself. There were more important things the Qur'an needed to deal with. Like establishingTawheed, the oneness of God, in a Polytheistic society.

Surah An-Nisa:

157. And their saying “We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God “ – whereas they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the matter was made dubious to them. Those who differ about this matter and about Jesus are indeed confused; they have no definite knowledge thereof, following mere conjecture; and of a certainty, they killed him not.

158. But God raised him to Himself. God is All-Glorious with irresistible might, All-Wise.

The Qur'an is pretty clear on this matter. What issues are you facing in understanding it?

It is not convincing to refute a detailled narrative witnessed by independent witnesses with a short "they killed him not". Especially not so when you claim an angel told you so 700 years later.

You are over complicating the whole issue. Islam didn't come to 'refute' Christianity. It came to reform it from its deviant nature.

Would you mind telling me who the witnesses are? Exactly. You don't even know who these people are.

The point is, the Prophet didn't come to refute everything... He came to correct Gods religion which the Qur'an evidently did.

[TheIslamHistory]

First Of All according to the Quran:
 

Jesus never died

 

Allah Rescues Jesus from the Jews

{. . . That they (the Jews) said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son

of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”; but they killed him not, nor crucified

him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are

full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow,

for of a surety they killed him not.

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power,

Wise.}109

 

Ascension of Jesus to the Heavens

{Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to myself

and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make

those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of 

Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between

you of the matters wherein ye dispute.}110

Ref:

06 The Holy Qur’an: The Table Spread (5): 112-115.

107 The Holy Qur’an: The Table Spread (5): 110.

108 The Holy Qur’an: The Table Spread (5): 78.

109 The Holy Qur’an: Women (4): 157-158.
110 The Holy Qur’an: The Family of ‘Emran (3): 55.

Also According to the bible:

He received medicine and massaging from Mary Magdalene and others during this time.  He then "rose up from the dead" and left the tomb (cave).

1- Notice in Luke 24:1, the women came to the tomb with medicine and found Jesus gone.  If he was already dead, they would have no reason to bring this to dead Jesus.  But Jesus was alive and was receiving medical treatment.

2- Also, notice in John 20:15, Mary Magdalene thought Jesus was a gardener, after he healed and rose back up.

3- And in John 20:17, Jesus was still in pain, he told Mary Magdalene "touch me not!".

4- And in John 20:19-29, Jesus showed his original body to the disciples, and they checked it.

Jesus Christ:
  

 

• Never actually died. He has always been alive in the tomb receiving medical treatment.
   
• He was never buried underground, or in a coffin. He was laid on the floor, alive.

___________________________________________________

Luke 4:10-12
10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.
11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
12 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”

Matthew 4:5-10
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, 
6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”
8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 
9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”
10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; 
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

(If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Footnotes:

1. Psalm 91:1 Hebrew Shaddai
2. Psalm 91:2 Or He says
   
   ___________________________________
   
   

   There is no question!

   There is no question that the emphasized parts above, especially in Psalm 91:11-12, 15 and others, clearly and indisputably agree with the Noble Quran and Isaiah 52:13!  Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, and he was protected and lifted by GOD Almighty.  Also, the New Testament, again, confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus Christ.

   • GOD Almighty will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and will save him (Psalm 91:3).
      
   • GOD Almighty will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).
      
   • Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).
      
   • Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (Psalm 91:8).
      
   • No harm (this includes crucifixion!) or disaster will even come near Christ (Psalm 91:10....this even contradicts him getting beaten up before crucifixion).
      
   • GOD Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him (Psalm 91:11-12, 14, Isaiah 52:13).  Not even his foot will strike the ground from his enemies pushing, grappling and punishment.
      
   • Christ's call will be HEARD, and he will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15, Isaiah 52:13).  No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified.
      
   • His life will be prolonged (extended) and he will live to even see his offspring (Isaiah 53:10 and Psalm 91:16, which by the way contradict Jesus never got married and had children.  In Islam's Noble Quran's 13:38, however, it is quite possible that Jesus Christ had wives and children).
      
   • His life will overpower death (Isaiah 53:12).
      
   • "Death" in Isaiah 53:9 is proven to be symbolic using the Hebrew Lexicon and several English translations, and it never meant a literal death.
      
   • Important Note:  Psalm 91 is speaking as a number of Prophecies that WILL take place.  Notice how the verses are speak of future events that WILL TAKE PLACE.  Never once throughout the entire New Testament were the Angels sent to save Jesus from striking his foot against a rock.  This, again, clearly proves that the NT is indeed false and corrupt.
   
   Lifting up those who bow down:

   Psalm 145:14
   The LORD upholds all those who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down.

   Psalm 146:8
   the LORD gives sight to the blind, the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down, the LORD loves the righteous.

   Isaiah 52:13
   13 See, my servant will act wisely ; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

   Please visit: Jesus bowed down to GOD Almighty begging Him to save him from the crucifixion.

    

   GOD Almighty Saving His annointed King and saving those who take refuge in Him:

   Psalm 20:6
   6  Now I know that the Lord saves his anointed king. He answers him from his holy heaven. The power of God's right hand saves the king.

   Psalm 17:7
   Show the wonder of your great love, you who save by your right hand those who take refuge in you from their foes.

   Psalm 18:3
   I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise, and I am saved from my enemies.

   Psalm 9:13
   O LORD, see how my enemies persecute me! Have mercy and lift me up from the gates of death,

   Psalm 30:1
   [ A psalm. A song. For the dedication of the temple. Of David. ] I will exalt you, O LORD, for you lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me.

   Note:  The Psalms of David, while they are narrated by him, but they do contain many prophecies about the coming of Jesus Christ or the Messiah.  The New Testament had made many references to many of the Psalms verses and linked them to Jesus Christ.

   It is also interesting to know that King David was never killed by his enemies.  Therefore, the speech in Psalm 9:13 and Psalm 30:1 refer to a live man and not a man who died.  Notice how David said:

   1-  "I will exalt you, O LORD, for you lifted me out of the depths and did not let my enemies gloat over me."

   2-  "Have mercy and lift me up from the gates of death".

   The two quotes indicate that David cried out to GOD Almighty for help, and GOD Almighty lifted him from the enemies' defeat and death.  In other words, David was victorious and was never killed or put to death by them.  Remember that King David was never killed by his enemies.  He was lifted up by GOD Almighty and was made victorious over them.

   Therefore, it is also safe to say that GOD Almighty's Commands about "saving" and " sending down the Angels to lift up" Christ from his enemies, in Psalm 91 and the rest of the Psalm verses above, also undoubtebly prove that Jesus Christ indeed never got crucified and was indeed saved from crucifixion and death.

   For more on this please visit:

   Psalm 91 clearly states that Jesus Christ will never get crucified.

   Psalm 116, 117 and 118 indesputably prove that Jesus Christ never got crucified.

   Jesus in Hebrews 5:7-8 cried out to GOD Almighty to be saved and "he was heard".

3.  ______________________________________________________________________________
   
   
   Yes, Jesus (A.S) was raised into the heavens, and will come back with the Imam Mahdi (A.F) according to Islamic Beliefs.
   
   Should I go more into depth??  

Edited June 30, 2013 by TheIslamHistory

[andres]

Hello Ali

The Quran is not very clear. Maybe you could tell me what really happened when Jesus apparently was crusified?

The reliability of the NT is being discussed in many other threads, but let me just mention that Luke and Paul indeed are known to us. There is some doubt about Matthew. Who wrote the Gospel of John is also questioned, but it reffers tto him.

Edited June 30, 2013 by andres

[andres]

Forgot to mention Mark. He is also known to us.

[TheIslamHistory]

Well according to Luke 24:1-8, Mark 15:40-47, Mark 16:1-8, John 19:38-42, John 20:1-29), Jesus Christ was NEVER buried underground.  He was placed in a rich man's tomb (a cave like a bear's or mountain lion's cave) for three days above the ground, laying on the floor there. 
 

• Sorry did you want verses Discussing what happen to Jesus (A.S)?
  ???? sorry a bit Confused on what you requested? Mentioned on the first reply to what happen to jesus (A.S)?
   

yes, There are a lot of error's in the new testament as I found out  

[andres]

Hello IslamHistory

The Bible is a large book and you can find quotes that with a little fantasy can predict almost any historical event, but I world be careful to use a corrupted book if I was a Muslim, because you know not what is corrupted in the Bible and what is not.

However I was not asking what the Bible has to say about the crucifixion of Jesus, I am asking why the Quran has got so little to say about this important event.

The Quran is so vague about the fate of Jesus that the text can be understood in more than one way. Like for example; The Quran say "They (the jews) killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them". This coud also be understood: It only appeared to them (the jews) that they (the jews) killed him. In reality it was the Romans who killed Jesus.

I know Muslims do not read the Quran this way, but acording the Gospels Jesus was condemned by Pilate and crucified and killed by Roman soldiers, but the Gospels blaimed the Jews. So one could choose to read the Quran in this way, more similar to the Gospels.

If Jesus was not crucified, was he replaced by someone and how was this possible? When was Jesus taken up to heaven and what happened to his body? And what was Jesus doing when the poor substitute was suffering? Who was he, and why was this not discovered when he was taken down from the cross? Was the entire mobb hypnotized? Blaiming the Gospels for being corrupted I think the Quran owes us an answer, but I dont believe the Quran can do this.

[Son of Placid]

He received medicine and massaging from Mary Magdalene and others during this time.  He then "rose up from the dead" and left the tomb (cave).

 

I'd like to know how you got this idea out of the NT. Did you read the verses?

 

24 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

 

Spices are to make dead bodies smell better.

 

Medicine???Is that a hadith kinda thing? Did it start with "Once upon a time..."?

[Son of Placid]

Don't think you guys realize this yet but it's Muslims that have the 101 stories on this subject yet accuse others of conjecture. You've been indoctrinated to the teeth that the NT is wrong, yet you fall back on one ayat you can't interpret properley, and hadith, (Stories meant to confuse Muslims).It is reported that he said that he said, that he said that he said, that he said that he said, that he said that he said, that he said that he said, that he said that he said, that he said that he said, that he said that he said that<--- Anything but what the NT says will do.

 

The entire Surah is about the Jews, so what gives? The Jews boasted, (actually called for) but did not kill Jesus, The Romans put Him on the cross.. 4:157 makes it clear the Jews did not kill Jesus. They thought they did by calling out for it, but the physical crucifixion was done by the Romans.

 

More than that, did Jesus die on the cross because he was crucified? No. He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit" and gave up His spirit. Who on earth can do that? Not you, not me. Call it His last miracle. He ascended, God took His spirit. The Quran says it right, what tangent are you off on?

 

As the story goes on, the romans didn't want anybody alive the next day so they went around breaking their legs. This causes them to hang in a position where they end up suffocating, but when they got to Jesus" They saw He was already dead" To prove it they stabbed him in the side with a spear...blood and water came out. They probably didn't know that the plasma separates from the blood and looks like water.

 

At least, (or I missed it) I didn't see the Jesus/Judas swap theory. God's great deception, as if God needed to deceive. As if Judas would have said what Jesus said...He'd be too busy yelling "Wasn't me!!!I'm not him!!! You got the wrong guy!!!" read the Bible, check his character. Simple black n white folks.

 

Same Surah, go back a bunch of ayats, and tell me who is "they"? The Jews. The Quran is black and white, hadith is gray, why deviate from the Quran? Why prefer to go with the un-divine interpretations?

 

Jesus is more than Muslims give Him credit for just like Christians give Him too much credit. The devil has them all twisted, sits back n laughs.

 

Sorry, but I don't see your over exuberance on this matter as anything more than shaytan's way of leading you astray. Read what the Quran really says...It fits well into the NT stories if you are willing to un-hadith and read for real.

 

The main arguments here  is was He dead in the tomb? Does that mean you got to the point of believing He was crucified?

[placid]

A few interesting verses from the Quran starting in Surah 2, which is called ‘The Cow,’ --- and this name comes from the Sacrifice of a yellow (or fawn colored) heifer in 2:67-71. --- (This was a sacrifice in the days of Moses, for purification from sin and the heifer is described in Numbers 19.) --- Surah 2:

69 They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what her color is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; her color is intensely yellow, giving delight to the beholders.

70 They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.

71 Moses said: He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said: Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it).

72 And when you killed a man, then you disagreed with respect to that, and Allah was to bring forth that which you were going to hide.

--- (This is spoken to the Jews in Madinah, about the Jews who were accused of killing Jesus, in 4:157.)

 

73  So We said: Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow), thus Allah brings the dead to life, and He shows you His Signs so that you may understand.

--- This is impossible to understand as the Sacrificed Cow of Numbers 19 was reduced to ashes and used for purification from sin, in the days of Moses.

However, the Translator and Commentator, Maulana, says that the word translated, “Strike” --- also means ‘liken to’ or ‘compare,’ --- and this is the meaning that Sher Ali uses:

72  And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and Allah, would bring to light what you were hiding.

73 Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.

 

Maulana says in a footnote in the Pickthall translation that verses 72-73, ‘refer to the Martyrdom of Jesus Christ.’

--- Again, for their sin and rejection of God’s Signs in prophecy, --- it says in Surah 4:

155 So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: `Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,' - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little –

156 And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;

157 And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.

 

--- Since Jesus was on the cross it would appear that He died from crucifixion, but in reality, --- The Jews didn’t kill Him, and the Romans didn’t kill Him, --- but when all prophecies were fulfilled concerning Him, He said, “It is finished.”

And this is recorded in Luke 23:

46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

 

It needs to be noted that Christians are not in doubt about the death of Jesus on the cross, and the proof is, that He was dead when the soldiers came to break their legs. --- It records this in John 19:

32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.

³³ But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

³⁴ But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

--- (So only unbelievers and disbelievers are still disputing this but it is written plainly in the 4 Gospels.)

--- (And Gabriel Confirmed the former Scriptures, did he not?)

 

The death of Jesus on the cross is the “cornerstone“ of Christianity. --- Physical death was necessary. --- However, the Victory was in the Resurrection.

Jesus refers to His death and resurrection in Surah 19:

33"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

--- (And only the unbelievers and disbelievers vainly dispute this ‘statement of truth’ as well. --- Christians believe it.)

 

--- And one last verse from Surah 3:

55 Remember the time when Allah said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection;

--- (Some Muslims have confirmed that the Arabic words used here, refer to physical death.)

The natural death is, ‘the breath of life going out of the body.’

--- (You don't have to believe it, --- but this is what is written in the Gospels and the Quran, so I believe it.)

 

Placid

[IbnSohan]

The People of the Book will ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven; and they asked Moses for greater than that, for they said, 'Show us God openly.' And the thunderbolt took them for their evildoing. Then they took to themselves the Calf, after the clear signs had come to them; yet We pardoned them that, and We bestowed upon Moses a clear authority. (153) And We raised above them the Mount, taking compact with them; and We said to them, 'Enter in at the gate, prostrating'; and We said to them, 'Transgress not the Sabbath'; and We took from them a solemn compact. (154)So, for their breaking the compact, and disbelieving in the signs of God, and slaying the Prophets without right, and for their saying, 'Our hearts are uncircumcised' -- nay, but God sealed them for their unbelief, so they believe not, except a few -- (155) and for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, (156) and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed; (157) God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise. (158) There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them.

 

------------

 

When God said, 'Jesus, I will take thee to Me and will raise thee to Me and I will purify thee of those who believe not. I will set thy followers above the unbelievers till the Resurrection Day. Then unto Me shall you return, and I will decide between you, as to what you were at variance on. (55) As for the unbelievers, I will chastise them with a terrible chastisement in this world and the next; they shall have no helpers.' (56) But as for the believers, who do deeds of righteousness, He will pay them in full their wages: and God loves not the evildoers. (57) This We recite to thee of signs and wise remembrance. (58) Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was. (59) The truth is of God; be not of the doubters. (60) And whoso disputes with thee concerning him, after the knowledge that has come to thee, say: 'Come now, let us call our sons and your sons, our wives and your wives, our selves and your selves, then let us humbly pray and so lay God's curse upon the ones who lie.'

[Son of Placid]

Christ's call will be HEARD, and he will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15, Isaiah 52:13).  No way would these verses be valid if Christ got crucified.

 

Psalm 91:15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. Who is him?

 

Check verse 1:He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Him is the believers.

Let's not forget this was a song, and as most songs, rhymed...in Hebrew. King David sings to the believers if they follow God, He will protect them. Is this a promise that you will never physically hurt? Apparently not, I hurt, how about you?

 

If you want to take this figurative song literal by verse 4 you would have to believe God is a bird...up to you.

 

Isaiah 52¹³ Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently;He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

Does God only have one servant? How could the people of the time be astonished if the passage, (not just the one verse) speaks of Jesus?

 

These verses may be good enough for answering-Christianity.com, but not for a reader.

[andres]

As starter of this thread I would like to keep it on track so I repeat my question:

If Jesus was not crucified, was he replaced by someone and how was this possible? When was Jesus taken up to heaven and what happened to his body? And what was Jesus doing when the poor substitute was suffering? Who was he, and why was this not discovered when he was taken down from the cross? Was the entire mobb hypnotized?

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The All Compassionate, The All Merciful. As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh; The peace be upon you, and The Mercy of Allah and HIS Blessings.
 

 

 

Salaam andres.

 

 

As starter of this thread I would like to keep it on track so I repeat my question:

 If Jesus was not crucified, was he replaced by someone and how was this possible? When was Jesus taken up to heaven and what happened to his body? And what was Jesus doing when the poor substitute was suffering? Who was he, and why was this not discovered when he was taken down from the cross? Was the entire mobb hypnotized?  -- andres

Generally, it is understood that Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH] was neither killed, nor crucified. The story in the New Testament, I suspect, was taken from an historical record. It is claimed that one Rabbi Yeshua (Jesus) Ben Panderia was killed and crucified, nearly a century before the advent of Prophet Jesus, PBUH son of Maryam.

That someone was substituted for the Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH], is reasonable. The Gospel of Barnabas, insists that it was Judas Iscariot. It is claimed that he was crucified for his villainy. The likeness of Jesus PBUH, was placed upon Judas. While the gospel has been repeatedly referred to as a forgery, by some writers, none has to date explained the abundance of truth found therein. However, it is clear to me, that the Gospel of Barnabas, has been tampered with and corrupted to some extent.

Prophet Jesus PBUH, who was an initiate (in the race of the immortals) was anointed Christ / Messiah, and His PBUH, purified material/physical body, was Spiritualized and carried into the heavenly realm.

Any mistakes, are of course mine, alone.



Wassalaam.   Faithfully999
 

 

[andres]

Hello Faithfully

I know that it among muslims is generally understood that Jesus was not crucified and killed, just like it is generally understood that he was so among christians. I see a crutial difference in our beliefs thou, while the Bible specificallt say so, with a detailled story, the Quran has not got much to say and actually does not say he was killed. The Quran only says that the Jews did not kill or crucify him. This does not exclude the possibility that the Romans did. I could have missed a sura that does thou, so please correct me if I am wrong.

The Quran corrects seemingly less important details in the Gospel, like that Jesus was born under a Palm tree and not in the barn. Had the Quran then not explained that Judas was crucified instead of Jesus if this was what actually happened? So why trust the unlikely story from the Gospel of Barnabas??

If we assume that the Quran has corrected all errors in the 4 Gospels, the errors are very few, and the 4 Gospels very reliable.

[placid]

Hi Andres,

 

I know you are trying to get their explanation of their beliefs about the crucifixion, and their ‘substitute theory,’ --- I read this all with interest, but I had just been talking to Faithfully about centering our discussions on the Quran and the NT.

--- He sounded interested, but I see he lapses back to his story of Barnabas which was written from the 12^th to the 14^th century, in either Italian, that was translated to Spanish, or the other way around, --- and is by no means Scriptural.

However, at the end of Codex Siniaticus, the ‘Epistle of Barnabas’ is included, which would have been authentic from the Barnabas in the Book of Acts, or it would not have been included in the Codex from about 400 AD, --- which was the ‘time of writings,’ because the Scholar Jerome translated the Hebrew and Greek Bible into the Latin Vulgate at that time, which was used in the Church till the 16^th century, when the Vulgate was translated into English in the Douay Version.

I will give more info on the Epistle later, but here is one Chapter:

   

Epistle of Barnabas Chapter 4:

1 For this cause did our Lord vouchsafe to give up his body to destruction, that through the forgiveness of our sins we might be sanctified; that is, by the sprinkling of his blood.

2 Now for what concerns the things that are written about him, some belong to the people of the Jews, and some to us.

3 For thus saith the Scripture; He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, and by his blood we are healed. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

4 Wherefore we ought the more to give thanks unto God, for that he hath both declared unto us what is passed, and not suffered us to be without understanding of those things that are to come.

5 But to them he saith; The nets are not unjustly spread for the birds.

6 This he spake, because a man will justly perish, if having the knowledge of the way of truth, he shall nevertheless not refrain himself from the way of darkness.

7 And for this cause the Lord was content to suffer for our souls, although he be the Lord of the whole earth; to whom God said before the beginning of the world, Let us make man after our own image and likeness.

8 Now how he suffered for us, seeing it was by men that he underwent it, I will shew you.

9 The prophets having received from him the gifts of prophecy, spake before concerning him:

10 But he, that he might abolish death, and make known the resurrection from the dead, was content, as it was necessary, to appear in the flesh, that he might make good the promise before given to our fathers, and preparing himself a new people, might demonstrate to them whilst he was upon earth, that after the resurrection he would judge the world.

11 And finally, teaching the people of Israel, and doing many wonders and signs among them, he preached to them, and shewed the exceeding great love which he bare towards them.

12 And when he chose his apostles, which were afterwards to publish his Gospel, he took men who had been very great sinners; that thereby he might plainly shew That he came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

13 Then he clearly manifested himself to be the Son of God. For had he not come in the flesh, how should men have been able to look upon him, that they might be saved?

15 Wherefore the Son of God came in the flesh for this cause, that he might fill up the measure of their iniquity, who have persecuted his prophets unto death. And for the same reason also he suffered.

16 For God hath said of the stripes of his flesh, that they were from them. And, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered.

17 Thus he would suffer, because it behoved him to suffer upon the cross.

18 For thus one saith, prophesying concerning him; Spare my soul from the sword. And again, My flesh trembleth for fear.

19 And again, the congregation of wicked doers rose up against me, (They have pierced my hands and my feet).

20 And again he saith, I gave my back to the smiters, and my face I set as a hard rock.

 

Placid

 

[andres]

Hi Placid

Why do muslims reffer to a source like Barnabas Gospel if it is not because they lack information and factual support from the Quran? I am no Quranexpert but maybe you know if there anywhere in the Quran clearly is stated that Jesus was not crucified and killed. ( by romans or anybody else). As I read the Gospels, the Romans in fact did this. So the Quran could be right.

Barnabas Gospel has got nothing to do with the epistle of Barnabas that is more than a millennium older (71-130 AD), so it is not relevant for this discussion. Who wrote the epistle is actually also disputed. What is interesting is what the very Quran has got to say.

[placid]

Hi,

 

Quote: “Maybe you know if there anywhere in the Quran clearly is stated that Jesus was not crucified and killed. ( by romans or anybody else).”

 

Response: --- It sounds from this that you didn’t read Posts 9 and 10 carefully. --- (The evidence is that He did die.)

--- I had said, the Muslim translator and Commentator, Maulana said:

Quote: “Maulana says in a footnote in the Pickthall translation that verses 72-73, ‘refer to the Martyrdom of Jesus Christ.’”

--- (I had written this before on another topic):

4:157 is not as confusing as it may appear. --- It seems that the Jews of verse 155-156 boasted that they had killed Jesus --- (And later they wanted to deny their involvement.)

 --- The verse goes on to say, --- ‘they (the Jews) slew him not nor crucified him.’

(That might sound like it is saying, ‘He didn’t die’). --- Sher Ali: ‘Whereas they (the Jews) slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross.’ (This doesn’t deny His death, or the crucifixion). --- But ‘He was made to appear to them like one crucified.’

 --- Jesus didn’t die from crucifixion, though it appeared like it. --- The Jews didn’t kill Him, although they plotted to, and called for His death. --- The Romans, who carried out the torture didn’t kill Him. --- But, ‘Jesus said, “Father, into Your hands I commend My spirit.” And having said this, He breathed His last.’ Luke 23:46.
--- After He had fulfilled all prophecy, and said, --- “It is finished,” Jesus willed His life to go out of His body. --- And natural physical death is the separation of body and spirit. --- (The Arabic words used in Surah 3:55 refer to physical death.)

He had said in John 10:17-18, “Therefore My Father loves Me because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

--- Also, in the commentary of Maulana, he explains these Arabic words:
‘the words صَلَبُوهُ مَا in Qur'an 4:157, do not negate Jesus' PBUH, being nailed to a cross; they only negate his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it.’

Maulana also said that ‘His legs had not been broken,’ like the other two who were crucified, --- and the reason is given plainly in John 19:

 

²⁸ After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”

²⁹ Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.

³⁰ So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

 

³¹ Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

³² Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.

³³ But when they came to Jesus and SAW THAT HE WAS ALREADY DEAD, they did not break His legs.

³⁴ But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

³⁵ And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. --- (This was the Apostle John.)

 

--- (Because this was the Preparation Day for the next day, which John said was a High Day, or special Sabbath and not the weekly Sabbath, the Jews asked that their legs would be broken to induce a quick death so they could take the bodies down from the cross before sundown, when the next day started.)

 

The soldiers testified that He was already dead, --- so they did not break His legs, but perhaps, --- as a last assurance that He was dead, a soldier pirced His side, so any remaining blood would flow out.

--- (The Apostle John was there and witnessed all of this.)

 

The Jews said, “By the mouth of two or three witnesses, let it be established.”

In the Gospel there are the 4 Gospel writers who record, it plus the other 10 Apostles who observed from a distance, --- as well as all the people of the city.

--- The last part of verse 147 which says, “Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they (the Jews) slew him not for certain."

--- It is not the Christians that have any doubt about the Crucifixion, --- (only the unbelievers and the critics.)

 

--- One last thing --- The angel Gabriel confirm the Gospel to be true, in Surah 3:

3 “He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture WITH TRUTH, CONFIRMING THAT WHICH WAS REVEALED BEFORE IT,  even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.”

--- And 5:48 “To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”

--- Would Gabriel even have revealed this if it wasn’t all true?

 

Placid

[Ali Musaaa :)]

^... What Gabriel revealed was 100% true. What you have now is not the Injeel. God confirmed the Injeel not the Bible. Massive difference.

Jesus is referring to his ressurection on the Day of Judgement. Not what Christians claim happened after his alleged death. It's illogical because other Prophets say the same thing, including John the Baptise in the Qur'an as well. Does anyone believe Prophet Yahya was resurrected? No. It's referring to the day of Judgement.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Ali Musaaa :)

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The All Compassionate, The All Merciful. As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh; The peace be upon you, and The Mercy of Allah and HIS Blessings.
 

 

 

Salaam andres.

 

 

Hello Faithfully
 

I know that it among muslims is generally understood that Jesus was not crucified and killed, just like it is generally understood that he was so among christians. I see a crutial difference in our beliefs thou, while the Bible specificallt say so, with a detailled story, the Quran has not got much to say and actually does not say he was killed. The Quran only says that the Jews did not kill or crucify him. This does not exclude the possibility that the Romans did. I could have missed a sura that does thou, so please correct me if I am wrong.

There is no indication in Al-Qur'aan, that the Romans killed or crucified Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH]. What it does state is that Jesus PBUH, was raised up to Allaah, Glory be to HIM. And, Allaah Is, Ever All powerful, All Wise. See Qur'aan 4:158.

The crucifixion story, as found in the New Testament, is probably from the Talmud. I read about it in one of Gerald Massey's works.
 

The Quran corrects seemingly less important details in the Gospel, like that Jesus was born under a Palm tree and not in the barn. Had the Quran then not explained that Judas was crucified instead of Jesus if this was what actually happened? So why trust the unlikely story from the Gospel of Barnabas??
 If we assume that the Quran has corrected all errors in the 4 Gospels, the errors are very few, and the 4 Gospels very reliable. -- andres

It sems reasonable to me, that the story found in Barnabas' gospel, need not be repeated in The Noble Qur'aan. Al-Qur'aan is still the protector and corrector of previous Scripture. Reading into Barnabas' gospel, the error's in the N.T., are afar from few. And acceptance of Al-Qur'aans correction of biblical errors, seem difficult for many Christians.  Yet, I find benefit in an esoteric translation of the New Testament.


 

Hi Placid

 Why do muslims reffer to a source like Barnabas Gospel if it is not because they lack information and factual support from the Quran? I am no Quranexpert but maybe you know if there anywhere in the Quran clearly is stated that Jesus was not crucified and killed. ( by romans or anybody else). As I read the Gospels, the Romans in fact did this. So the Quran could be right.

 Barnabas Gospel has got nothing to do with the epistle of Barnabas that is more than a millennium older (71-130 AD), so it is not relevant for this discussion. Who wrote the epistle is actually also disputed. What is interesting is what the very Quran has got to say.  andres

The so-called epistle of Barnabas, unless it has been deliberately corrupted, is non-sense, and it is not by the same writer (scribe: one who writes), of the Gospel of Barnabas. Barnabas claims to be the 'scribe' whom took words directly from the mouth of Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH].
 

 

 

Wassalaam.   Faithfully999

 

[andres]

There is no indication that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.There is no indication that Jesus was not crucified by the Romans either. The Quran really leaves the question what happened to Jesus before he was taken up to heaven open. This is very strange, the importance and the muslim-christian controversy over this matter taken into consideration. Muslims have to rely on other sources. But how is it possible to rely on sources said to be corrupted when the Quran does not specify what is corrupted in them and what is not? And what guarantees have muslims got that the Barnabas Gospel contains the true story about the crucifixion? The Quran does not reffer to this Gospel either, of course not, it was not yet written, and the Gospel does not reffer to the Quran. No connection. The Quran is dependent on religious books written before the Quran, books claimed to have been corrupted, but the Quran unfortunately gives very little info on what is corrupted and what is not. That Jesus was born under a Palm tree and not in a barn is of little help. The problem is that without theese "corrupted" books, depending on the Quran only, our knowledge about Jesus and other Biblical persons is extremly limited.

[Son of Placid]

So is every Muslim in agreement with the Gospel of Barnabus?

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The All Compassionate, The All Merciful. As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh; The peace be upon you, and The Mercy of Allah and HIS Blessings.

 

 

 

Salaam andres.

 

There is no indication that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.There is no indication that Jesus was not crucified by the Romans either. The Quran really leaves the question what happened to Jesus before he was taken up to heaven open. This is very strange, the importance and the muslim-christian controversy over this matter taken into consideration. Muslims have to rely on other sources. But how is it possible to rely on sources said to be corrupted when the Quran does not specify what is corrupted in them and what is not?

Your point is assuredly open to argument. It is obvious that you have not understood either Al-Qur'aan or Barnabas' gospel. The tampering of the Gospel of Barnabas, is found easily enough by seriously perusing the Noble Qur'aan. You refuse to accept the word of Qur'aan, when it is explained. Christ Jesus PBUH, was neither killed nor crucified (4:157-158 Al-Qur'aan). Rabbi Yeshua (Jesus) Ben Panderia, Was killed and crucified.


 

And what guarantees have muslims got that the Barnabas Gospel contains the true story about the crucifixion? The Quran does not reffer to this Gospel either, of course not, it was not yet written, and the Gospel does not reffer to the Quran. No connection. The Quran is dependent on religious books written before the Quran, books claimed to have been corrupted, but the Quran unfortunately gives very little info on what is corrupted and what is not. That Jesus was born under a Palm tree and not in a barn is of little help. The problem is that without theese "corrupted" books, depending on the Quran only, our knowledge about Jesus and other Biblical persons is extremly limited. --andres

What guarantees have Muslims or, Christians that the N.T., contains the true crucifixion? None, unless it is understood through an esoteric translation; because the crucifixion spoken of in the New Testament, takes place in the brain (skull) of the initiate.

 

The Noble Qur'aan is said to be the final revelation. Take it or leave it; the choice is yours to make. Learn from these discourses, or turn to another topic. Stop wasting valuable time!

006.068 وَإِذَا رَأَيْتَ الَّذِينَ يَخُوضُونَ فِي آيَاتِنَا فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ حَتَّى يَخُوضُوا فِي حَدِيثٍ غَيْرِهِ وَإِمَّا يُنْسِيَنَّكَ الشَّيْطَانُ فَلا تَقْعُدْ بَعْدَ الذِّكْرَى مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ
006.068 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.  Al-Qur'an, 006.068 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])




Wassalaam.   Faithfully999

 

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The All Compassionate, The All Merciful. As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh; The peace be upon you, and The Mercy of Allah and HIS Blessings.

 

 

 

 

So is every Muslim in agreement with the Gospel of Barnabus? -- Son of Placid

Salaam Son of Placid.

Certainly not. Some Scholars call it forgery. I call it tampered with. You have obviously judged for yourself, as did I.

157. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of God," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

158. But God raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And God is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.  Al-Qur'aan  4:157-158  Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali Ph.D. & Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan




Wassalaam.   Faithfully999
 

Edited July 7, 2013 by Faithfully999

[Son of Placid]

but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man),

 

Don't you have a regular translation?

 

That they, (The Jews), said (in boast), "We, (The Jews), killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they, (The Jews), killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, (The Jews), and those, (The Jews), who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they, (The Jews), killed him not:-

 

Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; (in spirit and soul) and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

[andres]

Hello Faithfully

Religious beliefs depend not on logic , but we may still speculate. When the Quran say that Jesus was not killed or crucified by the Jews, this could still mean he was killed by the Romans. I have asked if there in the Quran is a sura that clearly states that Jesus was not crucified nor killed. This seems not to be the case. I know Muslims in spite of this believe Jesus was not killed. You say our holy books are corrupted. Naturally as a christian I must argue against this claim that I find very thin, Muhammeds knowledge of Jesus extremely limited and the reference to Barnabas Gospel, in order to fill this hole, surprising.

[placid]

Hi Ali,

 

Quote from Post 19:

^... What Gabriel revealed was 100% true. What you have now is not the Injeel. God confirmed the Injeel not the Bible. Massive difference.

 

Response: --- In English translations the words Injeel and Gospel have the same meaning, --- the same as Allah and God, that are used interchangeably.

Gabriel came to reveal the truth, so it should not be a mystery.

--- Jesus said this in John 17:

8  ^“For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.”

 

So what part of the words of Jesus (written in red in a Red Letter Edition) do you believe were in the Injeel?  

You must have some knowledge, if you say there was a “Massive difference.”

 

Another question: --- What does it matter to the faith of Muslims whether or not, Jesus died and rose again?

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The All Compassionate, The All Merciful. As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh; The peace be upon you, and The Mercy of Allah and HIS Blessings.

 

 

Salaam Son of Placid.

 

 

Don't you have a regular translation?--Son of Placid

 

 

I wouldn't know what that is. Have your pick:

 

 

  The Qur'an in English Ebooks

  Towards Understanding the Quran - surat 153-162

  Interpretation of the Meanings of The Noble Quran

Qur'an

 

 

 

 

Wa salaam.   Faithfully999

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

[Son of Placid]

Yusuf Ali seems to have an acceptable translation, as does Pickthall.

 

There is only one thing that really keeps the Quran and the NT at odds over the crucifixion and that is the ascension. That comes with the assumption that the physical body can leave earth and make it to heaven without burning up. Elsewise you can parallel what the Quran says with the NT accounts.

 

Is there something in the Quran that says the "physical body" goes to heaven?

[Faithfully999]

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful; The Eternal, The Righteous, The Owner Of Sovereignty, The Lord Of Majesty And Bounty, The Self-Sufficient, The Supreme, The Self-Subsisting In Whom All Subsist. The Peace Be Upon You, Everyone.
 

 

Salaam Son of Placid.

 

 

Yusuf Ali seems to have an acceptable translation, as does Pickthall.

 

There is only one thing that really keeps the Quran and the NT at odds over the crucifixion and that is the ascension. That comes with the assumption that the physical body can leave earth and make it to heaven without burning up. Elsewise you can parallel what the Quran says with the NT accounts.

 

Is there something in the Quran that says the "physical body" goes to heaven?

 

I cannot imagine anyone traveling to the heavens with their physical body intact. At some point there will be a conversion to the Spiritual. Barnabas' gospel gives a good account of this re: chapters on paradise.  However re: Al-Qur'an the following verses explain how Jesus is taken up to heaven by Allaah, Blessed Is HE Forevermore.

 

 

003.055 إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ
003.055 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.    Al-Qur'an, 003.055 (Aal-E-Imran [The Family of Imran])



004.158 بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  Al-Qur'an, 004.158 (An-Nisa [Women])

 

 

Wa saaam.   Faithfully999

 

 

 

[Faithfully999]

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful; The Eternal, The Righteous, The Owner Of Sovereignty, The Lord Of Majesty And Bounty, The Self-Sufficient, The Supreme, The Self-Subsisting In Whom All Subsist. The Peace Be Upon You, Everyone.
 

 

Hello Faithfully

Religious beliefs depend not on logic , but we may still speculate. When the Quran say that Jesus was not killed or crucified by the Jews, this could still mean he was killed by the Romans. I have asked if there in the Quran is a sura that clearly states that Jesus was not crucified nor killed. This seems not to be the case. I know Muslims in spite of this believe Jesus was not killed. You say our holy books are corrupted. Naturally as a christian I must argue against this claim that I find very thin, Muhammeds knowledge of Jesus extremely limited and the reference to Barnabas Gospel, in order to fill this hole, surprising.--andres

This will have to be my final response on this thread/topic. Belief does depend upon sound reasoning. What you are speculating upon appears to border on the absurd.  Prophet Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. What does ethnicity have to with it? Must He PBUH, die a brutal death for you to accept Him PBUH? Well, it never happened! So, are your sins not to be forgiven, otherwise? Allaah, All Praise Is Due HIM, Is All Merciful, All Forgiveness. Be perfect in your righteousness, be perfect in your love! You know how to perform good deeds, also.
I say your N.T., holy book has been corrected to some extent re: the crucifixion story. Please don't put words in my mouth. Am I to believe that you just like being argumentative?



Wa salaam.   Faithfully999
 
 

 

[andres]

Hi Faithfully

You are absolutely right. I am speculating. I am not saying that the Quran says that the Romans killed Jesus, only pointing out that Quran only says that the Jews did not do it. I have been asking if someone more familiar with the Quran than me, can demonstrate that the Quran says that Jesus was not killed nor crucified at all, but noone has. This does not prove anything, but it could suggest that the question was not that important to the Quran. I dont think you or anybody else will end up in hell just because they dont believe Jesus was crucified, God is forgiving, not narrowminded.

[Son of Placid]

The most common conversion from physical to spiritual is when a body dies, the spirit leaves it. 

What is not common is for the spirit to leave the body to die on it's own. This is because us normal humans can't just decide when it's time to die.

If God decides to take your spirit from your body and bring it unto Himself, is that not ascension?

[Qa'im]

Hi Faithfully

You are absolutely right. I am speculating. I am not saying that the Quran says that the Romans killed Jesus, only pointing out that Quran only says that the Jews did not do it. I have been asking if someone more familiar with the Quran than me, can demonstrate that the Quran says that Jesus was not killed nor crucified at all, but noone has. This does not prove anything, but it could suggest that the question was not that important to the Quran. I dont think you or anybody else will end up in hell just because they dont believe Jesus was crucified, God is forgiving, not narrowminded.

 

The overarching prophetic archetype in the Qur'an is one of triumph and salvation, as opposed to martyrdom. Allah says in the Qur'an that there were many martyred prophets - prophets that were killed by their nations - but the stories of these sacrifices are not present. Of the 25 or so prophets mentioned by name, only two were martyrs (John the Baptist and Zakaria), but neither of their martyrdom stories were mentioned. On the contrary, the Qur'an recounts the stories of Lot, Shu`aib, Hud, Salih, Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad (pbuh). What all of these prophets have in common was that despite their oppression, they remained faithful to Allah and Allah gave them salvation. With Noah, Allah rescued him from the flood. With Abraham, Allah rescued him from the fire. With Moses, Allah rescued him from Pharaoh and split the sea. With Jesus, in our belief, Allah rescued him from the cross. And with Muhammad (pbuh), Allah rescued him from the polytheists. Allah mentioned the stories of the prophets to the Muslims so that they may draw parallels between the stories given and the struggle of our Prophet (pbuh).

 

The Qur'an says that the Jews did not crucify Christ, and this is the truth. The idea that it was actually the Romans crucified him is a technicality - it was the Jews that tried Jesus, it was them who blackmailed Pilate, and Pilate was said to have viewed Jesus as a good man. If someone were to hire a hitman to assassinate a person, that someone would still be guilty of murder. The hitman would be the vehicle and the weapon to that killing, but the killing would only happen through the original intent and resources of that someone. The argument that the Qur'an does not say Christ was crucified is a semantic and is void of any historical criticism. No verses uphold the crucifixion, and rather the verse explicitly denies it. No hadiths uphold the crucifixion, and rather the hadiths deny it. No exegeses uphold the crucifixion, and rather the exegeses deny it. No classical Islamic school believed in the crucifixion of Christ. There is no real evidence of the crucifixion being a belief of the Prophet (pbuh), his companions, and the Imams (as). Even if one were to assume that Jesus (as) was on a cross for a period of time, it has no significance to Islamic theology. We do not uphold the concept of the original sin, we do not believe in human sacrifices, we do not view Jesus as divine, and we believe in personal accountability of our own sins.

[andres]

Hello Qa'im

I respect your belief that Jesus was not crucified, but I dont agree. You are demonstrating that the conclusion that Jesus was not crucified can not be drawn from the Quran alone. Because the Quran has so little to say about Jesus, your argumentation rely on other sources and traditions. This was actually my point; why is the Quran so unclear about the death of Jesus? It tells a lot about Joseph, but so little about the life of Jesus. Why does the Quran not tell its version if it believes the entire christian community had been fooled to believe in the crucifixion?