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Murtada

Shaykh Saduq On Imams' Mistakes

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(salam)

 

Came across this in `Uyoon Akhbaar ar Ridaa, V1, Chapter 27: al Ridaa's Words on the Sign of the Imam

 

19-2 In another tradition we read, “The Imam is certified by the Holy Spirit. There is a column of light between him and God through which he sees the deeds of the people. He is informed about what he needs by it. Sometimes that light is shined at him and he gets to know (what he must become aware of). And sometimes it is taken away and thus he will not know (what he needs not know). Sheikh Sadooq said, “The Imam is born. He also has children. He gets ill and he gets cured. He eats and drinks. He urinates and defecates. He gets married. He sleeps. He forgets and he makes mistakes. He gets happy and sad. He laughs and cries. He lives and then dies. He is buried and the people go to visit his shrine. He is resurrected and questioned. He is rewarded and honored.
He intercedes. There are two important signs for him: his knowledge and the fulfillment of his prayers. He has heard the news that he gives about the events in the future from his grandfathers from the Prophet of God (s). The Prophet of God (s) has heard them from Gabriel. Gabriel has heard them from the Almighty God. All the eleven Imams after the Prophet (s) were martyred. Some were martyred by the sword - that is the Commander of the Faithful (s) and Al-Hussein (s). The rest of them were poisoned by the disobedient rulers of their time. The martyrdom of the Imams has been a real issue - not the way the boasters and those who believe in turning over the authority believe - May God's Curse Be on Them.
 
It's already pretty well known here Shaykh Saduq believed in sahw an Nabi (pbuh) and that this was from Allah (swt). What is interesting here is he mentions the Aa'imma have sahw and they also make mistakes. I wonder what he means by this. I don't believe, personally, that this conflicts `isma of the Aa'imma (as) and the Shaykh's view on their `isma is pretty straightforward; as seen from his al `Itiqaadaat:
 
"...that they do not commit any sin, whether it be minor (saghira) or major (kabira). They do not disobey Allah in what He has commanded them; they act in accordance with His behests. He who denies infallibility to them in any matter appertaining to their status is ignorant of them, and such a one is a kafir"
 
Thoughts, clarifications?

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I don't know how Sheikh Babaweik ® could write that because in his book Al-Mawaizh Sheikh writes, "His eyes may sleep but his heart never sleeps. He is addressed from the heavens. [...] His urination and feces cannot be seen because Allah has ordered the earth to swallow that whichever is discharged from him. His smell is more fragrant than musk. He enjoys more authority over the believers than themselves." - page 67

 

The Sheikh ® clearly states the Imams (as)  have knowledge of the unseen, I have no idea why he may have written that.

 

The 14 Infallibles are completely infallible unlike the Ahlul-Bayt who are not included in the 14 infallibles. For example, Prophet Musa (as)  punched a man who was fighting one of the believers but accidentally killed him, but this was not a sin because it was Tark Aula (leaving the better option for the less better option). I find it hard to believe Sheikh Saduq could write that... I don't have that book, I'll try to get it.

Edited by GodBlessAli

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(salam)

 

There are authentic hadiths which prove that our Imams (as) can make mistakes. For example. look at the hadith quoted in the first post in this thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235011959-changing-of-climate-according-to-aimmahas/

 

The Imam (as) says that Mars is a hot planet while Saturn is a cold planet, but it is actually the other way around.

 

I don't know how Sheikh Babaweik ® could write that because in his book Al-Mawaizh Sheikh writes, "His eyes may sleep but his heart never sleeps. He is addressed from the heavens. [...] His urination and feces cannot be seen because Allah has ordered the earth to swallow that whichever is discharged from him. His smell is more fragrant than musk. He enjoys more authority over the believers than themselves." - page 67

 

The Sheikh ® clearly states the Imams  (as)  have knowledge of the unseen, I have no idea why he may have written that.

 

The 14 Infallibles are completely infallible unlike the Ahlul-Bayt who are not included in the 14 infallibles. For example, Prophet Musa  (as)  punched a man who was fighting one of the believers but accidentally killed him, but this was not a sin because it was Tark Aula (leaving the better option for the less better option). I find it hard to believe Sheikh Saduq could write that... I don't have that book, I'll try to get it.

 

 

Where does Sheikh Al-Sadooq say that the Imams (as) have knowledge of the unseen? Don't make such claims without showing the source, please.

Edited by Crescent

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The 14 Infallibles are completely infallible unlike the Ahlul-Bayt who are not included in the 14 infallibles. 

Are you sure you got it right here? Ahlel Bayt is constituted by the 14 infallbies, others, such as salman (as), we're included per extension by the prophet (saaws).

Edited by .equilibrium.

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The Imam (as) says that Mars is a hot planet while Saturn is a cold planet, but it is actually the other way around.

It amazes me how swiftly you make a judgement that completely shatters the core principles of Shiism about the representative of Allah, one that is Equal to the Quran which falsehood cannot enter either from the front nor from its back. 

One hadith mentions the Imam making a statement about planet mars that goes again modern science and you consider the imam fallible? Considering the plethora of hadith in our books as well as the quranic verses of their perfection. The don't utter half a word of falsehood.

 

You should seriously reappraise your faith.

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(salam)

 

There are authentic hadiths which prove that our Imams  (as) can make mistakes. For example. look at the hadith quoted in the first post in this thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235011959-changing-of-climate-according-to-aimmahas/

 

The Imam  (as) says that Mars is a hot planet while Saturn is a cold planet, but it is actually the other way around.

 

 

(wasalam)

 

No brother, that is very incorrect. The example you posted is a matter of religion and the Imams do not make mistakes in those matters; their religion is perfect. If you continue reading the hadeeth I mentioned, after the bolded portion, the Shaykh (ra) write one of the signs of the Imam (as) is his knowledge. It can't be that the Aa'imma are deficient or incorrect in their knowledge and your example doesn't fit. The fact that the Imam (as) has said something which is contradictory to our current scientific understanding doesn't mean the Imam (as) is wrong; we shouldn't fall into these delusions. The mistakes Shaykh Saduq is referring to must mean something else, not related to knowledge or religion.

 

 

I don't know how Sheikh Babaweik ® could write that because in his book Al-Mawaizh Sheikh writes, "His eyes may sleep but his heart never sleeps. He is addressed from the heavens. [...] His urination and feces cannot be seen because Allah has ordered the earth to swallow that whichever is discharged from him. His smell is more fragrant than musk. He enjoys more authority over the believers than themselves." - page 67

 

The Sheikh ® clearly states the Imams (as)  have knowledge of the unseen, I have no idea why he may have written that.

 

The 14 Infallibles are completely infallible unlike the Ahlul-Bayt who are not included in the 14 infallibles. For example, Prophet Musa (as)  punched a man who was fighting one of the believers but accidentally killed him, but this was not a sin because it was Tark Aula (leaving the better option for the less better option). I find it hard to believe Sheikh Saduq could write that... I don't have that book, I'll try to get it.

 

Well the hadeeth I posted mentions the portions you are quoting. We know the Aa'imma (as) have some knowledge of the ghayb, that was told to them by Rasulallah (pbuh). They obviously don't have unrestricted knowledge of the ghayb. But I don't understand how this can be considered sufficient proof to rule out them making non-religion mistakes.

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With due respect to Sheik Suduq, he is wrong on his opinion and I dont follow what he states just because he is a classical scholar. My logic dictates that there is no room for mistakes when a perfect religion is sent through people, those people must be perfect. This man is wrong and can be wrong. If there is even a slight option that an imam did make even little mistakes then say good bye to shia islam, because everything could be challenged and doubts would be prevalent.

 

The imams knowledge is correct about the planets. Look up the planets history. The transmission of hadith may have been erred and it seems the imam does not have a specific time frame for his statement, he isnt talking about the planets now, maybe. Also what seemed fishy about that hadith is the guy was talking about hot and cold, but the imam goes on about two planets and how they interact with the seasons...

Edited by PureEthics

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(salam)

I have researched and read a bit about this view of Sheikh Saduq and some others who also hold similar views. It seems that this view generally has one backing and that is the number of authentic narrations we have (and the Sunnis also have similar narrations) about the Prophet (pbuh) finishing a 4 rak'at Salah in 2 rak'at. From my understanding, the main refutation by the Shi'a scholars of these narrations is that they were said under Taqiyyah. Although the refutation that I have read against it is the fact that the narrations exist in both Sunni and Shi'a books and the fact that it was a public event, with numerous companions witnessing it, it would have been hard to forge or fabricate it. 

 

But what I think is important to note here is that, even regarding this "forgetfulness", Sheikh Saduq does have the view that he was forced by Allah to forget and subsequently made that mistake. And the reason for that was so people could learn the ruling on what to do in that situation, and in one narration it even says that so if a person makes this mistake, others do not make a mockery out of him because it was a mistake also made by the Prophet (pbuh). 

 

In any case, Sheikh Saduq isn't the only one to hold this view (Tabarsi and Shushtari also hold views not too dissimilar and of course in recent times Syed Fadhlullah). Even Sheikh Mufeed who refuted Sheikh Saduq on this specific matter, only holds the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be immune from these cases at all times. Otherwise, regarding the Imams and the rest of the Prophets, he does saw in his Awail al-Maqalat that they could make minor mistakes that don't bring shame to them before the declaration of their Prophethood or Imammate. Although now a days, even accepting this view may be problematic since most of us believe that the Prophets or Imams are "Prophets and Imams" since birth.

 

Other than that, there is a unanimous opinion by the scholars that no Imam or Prophet would make mistakes in matters of preaching the religion and provide incorrect information. The same Saduq also says the following in his I'tiqadatu 'l-Imamiyyah:

 

Our belief concerning the prophets (anbiya'), apostles (rusul), Imams and angels is that they are infallible (ma`sum); purified from all defilement (danas), and that they do not commit any sin, whether it be minor (saghira) or major (kabira). They do not disobey Allah in what He has commanded them; they act in accordance with His behests. He who denies infallibility to them in any matter appertaining to their status is ignorant of them, and such a one is a kafir (unbeliever). Our belief concerning them is that they are infallible and possess the attributes of perfection, completeness and knowledge, from the beginning to the end of their careers. Defects (naqs) cannot be attributed to them, nor disobedience (Isyan), nor ignorance (jahl), in any of their actions (ahwal).

 

Also, another thing to note is that when a scholar has an opinion on something like this, it is very different than saying that the Prophet or Imam actually did something according to that opinion in history. If we have an opinion that the Prophets can commit sins, it is very different than saying he did commit sins

 

Wassalam

Edited by Aal-e-Imran

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(salam)

I have researched and read a bit about this view of Sheikh Saduq and some others who also hold similar views. It seems that this view generally has one backing and that is the number of authentic narrations we have (and the Sunnis also have similar narrations) about the Prophet (pbuh) finishing a 4 rak'at Salah in 2 rak'at. From my understanding, the main refutation by the Shi'a scholars of these narrations is that they were said under Taqiyyah. Although the refutation that I have read against it is the fact that the narrations exist in both Sunni and Shi'a books and the fact that it was a public event, with numerous companions witnessing it, it would have been hard to forge or fabricate it. 

 

But what I think is important to note here is that, even regarding this "forgetfulness", Sheikh Saduq does have the view that he was forced by Allah to forget and subsequently made that mistake. And the reason for that was so people could learn the ruling on what to do in that situation, and in one narration it even says that so if a person makes this mistake, others do not make a mockery out of him because it was a mistake also made by the Prophet (pbuh). 

 

In any case, Sheikh Saduq isn't the only one to hold this view (Tabarsi and Shushtari also hold views not too dissimilar and of course in recent times Syed Fadhlullah). Even Sheikh Mufeed who refuted Sheikh Saduq on this specific matter, only holds the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be immune from these cases at all times. Otherwise, regarding the Imams and the rest of the Prophets, he does saw in his Awail al-Maqalat that they could make minor mistakes that don't bring shame to them before the declaration of their Prophethood or Imammate. Although now a days, even accepting this view may be problematic since most of us believe that the Prophets or Imams are "Prophets and Imams" since birth.

 

Other than that, there is a unanimous opinion by the scholars that no Imam or Prophet would make mistakes in matters of preaching the religion and provide incorrect information. The same Saduq also says the following in his I'tiqadatu 'l-Imamiyyah:

 

 

Also, another thing to note is that when a scholar has an opinion on something like this, it is very different than saying that the Prophet or Imam actually did something according to that opinion in history. If we have an opinion that the Prophets can commit sins, it is very different than saying he did commit sins

 

Wassalam

 

 

With do respect brother. Prayer is a vital part of the religion. It would be illogical for him to make the mistake in public so people can "learn", when he could just give him an example without even mandatory pray in front of them or even he could just say what to do in this situation. Its honestly nonsense for him to actually mess up a mandatory prayer on purpose just to show us the procedure, meaning practically disobeying Allah for in return him showing us the truth. To me this seems like a contradiction.

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(salam)

 

With do respect brother. Prayer is a vital part of the religion. It would be illogical for him to make the mistake in public so people can "learn", when he could just give him an example without even mandatory pray in front of them or even he could just say what to do in this situation. Its honestly nonsense for him to actually mess up a mandatory prayer on purpose just to show us the procedure, meaning practically disobeying Allah for in return him showing us the truth. To me this seems like a contradiction.

 

I believe you are just going off of what you feel how an event in history should have taken place. The narrations by the Imams say that Allah made him forget; so now you are dealing with Allah's Wisdom here. I don't know where you are getting things like, "he messed up prayers on purpose" or "he practically disobeyed Allah". We have already established that the Prophet himself didn't do it on purpose; Allah made him forget. We have seen many events happening in history which don't make sense to us, but that is just the way they took place and how Allah planned it out to be. I personally don't buy arguments like "it is illogical; he could have just given an example outside of prayer" etc. How is it illogical? Why did Allah ask the Prophet to change the Qibla during prayers? Why couldn't they do it outside of prayers and then pray the next one towards the new Qibla?

 

These are not really refutations, especially because I don't see how this is going against ismah and clearly Sheikh Saduq and the others don't see it going against ismah either. Just like the Shi'ite scholars who believe that Surah 'Abasa is referring to the Prophet (pbuh) frowning; none of them believe it to be going against his ismah. Also the mistake wasn't done while providing or revealing any new information. The correct information regarding the prayers had already been revealed that's why the companion comes and asks the Prophet (pbuh) after the Salah whether a new ruling had come regarding the prayers and the Prophet said no.

 

Personally I need to see stronger evidence that the narrations by the Imams were indeed said in Taqiyah (the dalaael for this seems to be based on certain views regarding infallibility that the Shi'as have today versus centuries ago) and therefore prove that the event all together didn't even take place.

 

--

 

Also, while we are at it, does anyone know about the authenticity of this narration I read in Sunan an-Nabi of Allamah Tabatabee on page 83 (The Adaab of Sleeping and the Bedside), which implies that the Prophet missed his Tahajjud prayers:

 

In al-Makarim: The bedding of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a cloak and his pillow was made of skin stuffed with palm fiber. One night his cloak was folded in two and when he woke up, he said: "The bedding has prevented me from reciting my (night) prayer." So he ordered that a single layer be placed for him. He had a cushion made from skin and stuffed with palm fiber, and he had a cloak that would be folded in two and used by him as bedding when he was out of his home.
 
References: Makarim al-Akhlaq: 38, Saduq's al-Amali: 377 and Bihar al-Anwar 16:217.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Aal-e-Imran

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(salam)

 

 

I believe you are just going off of what you feel how an event in history should have taken place. The narrations by the Imams say that Allah made him forget; so now you are dealing with Allah's Wisdom here. I don't know where you are getting things like, "he messed up prayers on purpose" or "he practically disobeyed Allah". We have already established that the Prophet himself didn't do it on purpose; Allah made him forget. We have seen many events happening in history which don't make sense to us, but that is just the way they took place and how Allah planned it out to be. I personally don't buy arguments like "it is illogical; he could have just given an example outside of prayer" etc. How is it illogical? Why did Allah ask the Prophet to change the Qibla during prayers? Why couldn't they do it outside of prayers and then pray the next one towards the new Qibla?

 

 

 

These are not really refutations, especially because I don't see how this is going against ismah and clearly Sheikh Saduq and the others don't see it going against ismah either. Just like the Shi'ite scholars who believe that Surah 'Abasa is referring to the Prophet (pbuh) frowning; none of them believe it to be going against his ismah. Also the mistake wasn't done while providing or revealing any new information. The correct information regarding the prayers had already been revealed that's why the companion comes and asks the Prophet (pbuh) after the Salah whether a new ruling had come regarding the prayers and the Prophet said no.

 

Wassalam

 

 

First of all, im not someone who accepts a hadith because its sahih. Second, you have to prove to me its Allah's wisdom, because as I know, a sahih hadith can be weak and a weak hadith can be right. Third, as I said it contradicts the nature of the purpose of a prophet and this isnt any mistake, it is a mistake done on "purpose" while conveying a rule/law. What do you mean the prophet didnt do it himself? Was Allah controlling his body? Like I said why would Allah make him forget just to show us a mistake and then all of a sudden remember " ohh I made a mistake, now this is what your suppose to do if done so". Yea, it is illogical for Allah who created prophets and broth forth the quran, who gave the prophet wisdom in order to teach us this religion make him forget his wisdom so a lesson can be learned... Events in history dont interfere with the system of Allah created for prophets. I never heard that Allah asked him to change the qibla DURING prayer, but even so it doesnt interfere with Allah's system, its a plain command. Besides it would have made no difference if Allah told them to do it outside of prayer, because the prayer is still being accepted by Allah anyway, nor is it a mistake.

 

Im not going to get into the frowning business because I reject that rubbish as well. The point isnt that a new ruling occurred or changed, it contradicted his nature to know and understand everything Allah has commanded. The prophet is the carrier to the laws and commands in which he forgets, not only that, but he "happens"  to make a mistake during a mandatory prayer, and better yet Allah was the one who made him forget on purpose... All of this happened just so we can learn from it...Better yet, how about Allah lets the companion make the mistake and the prophet corrects him! You can believe what ever you want, but im not accepting it.

 

About your hadith, I also found this in hayat Al-Qulub vol2 by majlisi

 

Thereafter Imam Musa Kazim (a.s.) says: Prophet’s bed consisted of a bed sheet and a pillow of leather, full of date leaves. One night his sheet was folded twice with a view to give him more comfort. Next morning he said: “Due to more comfort last night, I could not wake up for night prayer earlier.” Henceforth the sheet may not be folded.

 

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol2-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/10.htm

 

Wa Salaam

Edited by PureEthics

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(salam)

 

There are authentic hadiths which prove that our Imams (as) can make mistakes. For example. look at the hadith quoted in the first post in this thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235011959-changing-of-climate-according-to-aimmahas/

 

The Imam (as) says that Mars is a hot planet while Saturn is a cold planet, but it is actually the other way around.

 

 

 

Where does Sheikh Al-Sadooq say that the Imams (as) have knowledge of the unseen? Don't make such claims without showing the source, please.

 

 

look what article was just posted today.....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22961729

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First of all, im not someone who accepts a hadith because its sahih. Second, you have to prove to me its Allah's wisdom, because as I know, a sahih hadith can be weak and a weak hadith can be right. Third, as I said it contradicts the nature of the purpose of a prophet and this isnt any mistake, it is a mistake done on "purpose" while conveying a rule/law. What do you mean the prophet didnt do it himself? Was Allah controlling his body? Like I said why would Allah make him forget just to show us a mistake and then all of a sudden remember " ohh I made a mistake, now this is what your suppose to do if done so".

 

Better yet, how about Allah lets the companion make the mistake and the prophet corrects him! You can believe what ever you want, but im not accepting it.

 

Brother you are saying you don't accept hadeeth just because they are saheeh since they could potentially be fabricated or what have you. Yet, you use your own logic and personal understanding of the religion as a final measure as to whether a report is accurate or not? We aren't prophets here, we can't simply say, this makes sense therefore it's correct. The Aa'imma (as) have countless times said their hadeeth are hard to bear, they have said not to reject their hadeeths but return the hadeeth to them and don't pass judgement in case we place a lie on them. Your outright denial of incidents which both classical and contemporary scholars accept is shocking and has absolutely no basis, other than your supposed logic (which I doubt has stayed constant over the past 10 years).

 

To come across your view, you are ignoring the countless other hadeeths and statements Shaykh Saduq wrote, namely the Aa'imma (as) cannot commit any major or minor sins, their knowledge is perfect, their piety and certainty are at the highest levels, etc. To say they can make mistakes isn't saying, as brother Aal e Imran mentioned above, that they did make mistakes, frequently or at all. Even if it does mean they did make mistakes, these mistakes must have been on non-religious matters or personal errands, since it is established they are the source for religious knowledge and hence cannot make a mistake in its teaching or practice. I think you are jumping to conclusions here.

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Brother you are saying you don't accept hadeeth just because they are saheeh since they could potentially be fabricated or what have you. Yet, you use your own logic and personal understanding of the religion as a final measure as to whether a report is accurate or not? We aren't prophets here, we can't simply say, this makes sense therefore it's correct. The Aa'imma (as) have countless times said their hadeeth are hard to bear, they have said not to reject their hadeeths but return the hadeeth to them and don't pass judgement in case we place a lie on them. Your outright denial of incidents which both classical and contemporary scholars accept is shocking and has absolutely no basis, other than your supposed logic (which I doubt has stayed constant over the past 10 years).

 

To come across your view, you are ignoring the countless other hadeeths and statements Shaykh Saduq wrote, namely the Aa'imma (as) cannot commit any major or minor sins, their knowledge is perfect, their piety and certainty are at the highest levels, etc. To say they can make mistakes isn't saying, as brother Aal e Imran mentioned above, that they did make mistakes, frequently or at all. Even if it does mean they did make mistakes, these mistakes must have been on non-religious matters or personal errands, since it is established they are the source for religious knowledge and hence cannot make a mistake in its teaching or practice. I think you are jumping to conclusions here.

 

Im sorry brother for to you it may seem like im jumping on a conclusion when im fact that is what I see you all are doing. All im saying is since I dont agree with the content of the hadith, it being sahih is not enough evidence for me. My logic comes from the quran where Allah explictly states they do not err, period. Im sorry if I dont accept all of the classical scholars words as they are not incombent on me. One thing that is quite annoying on this site is that many on here almost consider their words as infallible. A mistake is a mistake. it doesnt matter if it is for religious or non religious reasons. It all has to do with aql, and if their aql fails, so do their system.

wa salaam

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[EDIT]

 

Note from Mod: Alright, enough. 

If you foolish kids, who've read like half a dozen books (which too I doubt), think you can come here and insult our greatest scholars and get away with it, you're awfully mistaken. Such a thing will not be tolerated as a joke, as a sarcastic remark or as anything. 

Ibn Babawayh al-Qummi is said to have had endorsement by Imam al-Aakhir [ajf] himself, for cryin' out loud! That's not something minor, so at least give him the benefit of doubt. Show some respect. You can come back when you've learnt to behave yourself. 

Edited by Basim Ali

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(salam)

 

There are authentic hadiths which prove that our Imams (as) can make mistakes. For example. look at the hadith quoted in the first post in this thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235011959-changing-of-climate-according-to-aimmahas/

 

The Imam (as) says that Mars is a hot planet while Saturn is a cold planet, but it is actually the other way around.

 

 

Rather than reject the reliability of certain narrator(s) you'd reject the infallibility of the Imams?

Edited by macisaac

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A Mudalis and Kadhoob like Ibn Babawayh should not be turned to for anything.

 

What do you mean brother? Who is babawayh and what are those words mean?

 

Rather than reject the reliability of certain narrator(s) you'd reject the infallibility of the Imams?

 

mhhhhmmm mac my waqifi brother! What do you think? May I know your opinion on all of this?

Edited by PureEthics

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mhhhhmmm mac my waqifi brother! What do you think? May I know your opinion on all of this?

 

The narration that he pointed to (about hot and cold planets) I wouldn't give much regard (certainly not to make me reject the infallibility of the Imams).  One of the narrators is al-Hasan b. Mahbub, whom I've noticed to have repeatedly narrated odd and impossible things.  So, rather than rejecting the knowledge of my Imam, I'll reject the truthfulness of ibn Mahbub.  The problem though for folks who are too tightly wed to this (man made) system is that Ibn Mahbub is considered to be highly reliable, etc. and so they're left having to consider such a strange narration as "sahih".

 

As to the narration of the OP, well, it's from `Ali ar-Rida (or at least attributed to him), so as your friendly neighborhood Waqifi I'll just refrain from comment here.

Edited by macisaac

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The narration that he pointed to (about hot and cold planets) I wouldn't give much regard (certainly not to make me reject the infallibility of the Imams).  One of the narrators is al-Hasan b. Mahbub, whom I've noticed to have repeatedly narrated odd and impossible things.  So, rather than rejecting the knowledge of my Imam, I'll reject the truthfulness of ibn Mahbub.  The problem though for folks who are too tightly wed to this (man made) system is that Ibn Mahbub is considered to be highly reliable, etc. and so they're left having to consider such a strange narration as "sahih".

 

As to the narration of the OP, well, it's from `Ali ar-Rida (or at least attributed to him), so as your friendly neighborhood Waqifi I'll just refrain from comment here.

 

 

Thats it! Where is the Waqifi sign up list?! :P

 

with all jokes aside, very interesting. Yup, im pretty much on the same boat as you, except I am using the quran as my main back up. I also actually found sources suggesting and saying that these planets were like what imam reza described but millions of years ago. I also posted a article which came out today suggesting more evidence. Modern science is in a conundrum itself, changing every day. One day something is found, the next its false due to other evidence they previously didnt have.

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your all digressing from the point. I am curious to understand what Sheikh Sadooq meant by 'they make mistakes' ???

 

Can anyone shed light on that?

 

 

my guess is like...they left the stove on or they left the garage door open, I guess that's more like they 'forget'. To be honest, hard to say they make a math error or they mistakenly call someone by a different name or they guess and it turns out to be wrong... 

 

I don't know....

Edited by La fata illa Ali

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your all digressing from the point. I am curious to understand what Sheikh Sadooq meant by 'they make mistakes' ???

 

Can anyone shed light on that?

 

He meant to say "I make mistakes" ...

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He is calling shyikh al soudouq، Ali bin Alhusain and or his son Muhamad b Ali b Alhusain b Musa b Bavawih AlQummi AlSodpuq a deceptive liar.

 

Why? Do some shias despise classical scholars? Is there a reason? I mean I wouldnt go that far to call him a liar, a mistake thats all.

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(salam)

 

I personally don't have a strong opinion on this matter yet, but I am not ruling out the possibility of the views regarding the ability to make mistakes in non-religious matters. Whether they did or not, is a different issue and the probability of such would have been extremely low due to who these personalities were and/or would have had other reasons, like caused by Allah as mentioned in one of the cases. However, I do have a problem with the way you (PureEthics) are trying to justify your position.

 

First of all, im not someone who accepts a hadith because its sahih.

 

That doesn't make any sense. When does a hadith hold any value for you then? Only when the content makes sense (to you)?

 

Second, you have to prove to me its Allah's wisdom, because as I know, a sahih hadith can be weak and a weak hadith can be right.

 

 

The view of the Shaykh and the narrations we have say that it was forced by Allah, so of course if it was forced by Allah then it was His Wisdom behind it as to why he did it in this way rather through another way. Although the 2 narrations we get from the Imams (as-Sadiq and al-Kadhim) do give reasoning as well which I have already mentioned before (so the rule can be learned and that it was a rahmah on the ummah, and that people don't taunt others in the future). What else is there for me to prove for you?

 

What I want to know is how and on what basis are you rejecting this event to have taken place, when it has been recorded in different narrations and in both Sunni and Shi'a books. What is your actual reasoning for rejecting the event? Is it the mere fact that it doesn't sit too well with what your understanding of ismah is? I want to know your reasoning and proofs that disproves this event even took place. 

 

Third, as I said it contradicts the nature of the purpose of a prophet and this isnt any mistake, it is a mistake done on "purpose" while conveying a rule/law.

 

 

How do you prove that the nature and purpose of a Prophet is to not make any mistakes in non-religious matters? Do you have any proof for this? It wasn't a mistake done while conveying a rule/law; it was a mistake done (caused by Allah) while performing salah, and then the correct rule/law was provided on what to do if one is in that situation. There was no haram done. As a matter of fact, this is one reason why Tark al-Awla makes no sense to me. No matter how much you sugarcoat it, it is still an act contrary to what is expected of a Prophet to do; so adherents of Tark al-Awla should either say that the act wasn't even a "lesser good" - it was the good it self and justify them (as some scholars have done) or admit that those were actually mistakes made by the Prophets. 'Aql says they came to deliver the religious knowledge, and therefore must be immune in those cases. How does 'aql prove that if the Prophet wanted to buy 5 oranges, but instead buys 6, it puts his Prophethood and our religion into jeopardy (of course that was an over-simplified example)? And if you prove this extent of infallibility (even in non-religious matters) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams through 'aql, are you ready to apply the same level of infallibility on all previous Prophets and every other Hujjah that was appointed by Allah on earth (like the time between Isa (as) and Muhammad (pbuh) and the proofs of Allah that must have been existing between that time span) because they are all there for similar purposes? If Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is even immune from Tark al-Awla, why aren't the other Prophets? Are you going to eventually resort to naqli sources to explain this?

 

Also remember everything is still revolving around "if" and "can" - not about he "did" (except the story of the salah).

 

What do you mean the prophet didnt do it himself? Was Allah controlling his body?

 

 

What does "Allah made him forget" imply? He made him forget, and the Prophet finished the Salah in 2 rak'at. Allah is in control of all of our bodies at all times anyways, so I don't know where you were trying to get with that. This is why I agree with the other brother, that you are jumping up to your own conclusions on what Sheikh Saduq or others who believe in this view are even saying. The fact that they believe that Allah made him forget for whatever reason, did not impact the ismah of the Prophet. As a matter of fact, he says that if you deny them ismah you are an unbeliever. What they are saying however is that mistakes in non-religious matters would not go against 'aql. Allah didn't send down robots, is what they are trying to say.

 

I never heard that Allah asked him to change the qibla DURING prayer, but even so it doesnt interfere with Allah's system, its a plain command. Besides it would have made no difference if Allah told them to do it outside of prayer, because the prayer is still being accepted by Allah anyway, nor is it a mistake.

 

 

The command of changing the Qibla was during Ru'ku while they were praying in Masjid al-Qiblatayn. It's not about whether it matters or not, it is just the type of question you are asking. Why did Allah want to command them while they are praying and make them change their direction mid-way. Why couldn't he just tell them right after that, or before they begun the Salah, or just tell the Prophet (pbuh) who would have then told the rest later. You won't have a reason, because some things you don't know the reason for. Likewise, this question is irrelevant as to why Allah would make him forget in order to teach. This forgetfulness did not come from Shaytan, it came from Allah - there is a big difference. That's why perhaps Imam Sadiq (as) refers to it as a blessing. That's just how Allah wanted it to be done, just because it doesn't make any sense to you (and I still don't know how that conforms to the definition of illogical) doesn't make it not possible. That's not really a refutation. Also, you are forgetting the event after the incident. That the rule was given as to what to do in that situation and it was carried out and thus the prayer was accepted. So it had no effect on anything, and no haram was done.

 

Im not going to get into the frowning business because I reject that rubbish as well.

 

 

Well wake up and smell the coffee, because we have some very big big-shot scholars who believe in that rubbish. And these things don't make or break you as a Muslim (unless you are going to accuse some of our scholars of kufr or a lack of iman now), so I would stop getting so worked up over these things. Every scholar utilizes what is at their disposal at the given time and tries to make sense of it with their line of thinking and they arrive to these specific conclusions. If you have such strong opinions on matters like these where there is ikhtilaaf, you are better off trying to understand where the other side is coming from and disagree with it as you have the right to, instead of trying to decide what is rubbish and what isn't.

 

You can believe what ever you want, but im not accepting it.

 

Had you been this blunt about it earlier, I wouldn't have wasted my time replying back. But thanks for the heads up  :squeez:.

 

 

Wasalaam

Edited by Aal-e-Imran

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:(

Well looks like I am exited from their wilayah. Mac, im in.

Ha, you are the ones who dispute on what you know; why then dispute you touching a matter of which you know not anything? God knows, and you know not.

(Quran)

Are you really ready to take the risk? Rejecting a Hadith is like arguing with imam, arguing with imam is arguing with Allah (since He had chose them) it is like saying I am better than Adam , I was made of fire and Adam is made of mud.

Imam Ali said : if only iblees knew what's in the mud.

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(salam)

 

I personally don't have a strong opinion on this matter yet, but I am not ruling out the possibility of the views regarding the ability to make mistakes in non-religious matters. Whether they did or not, is a different issue and the probability of such would have been extremely low due to who these personalities were and/or would have had other reasons, like caused by Allah as mentioned in one of the cases. However, I do have a problem with the way you (PureEthics) are trying to justify your position.

 

 

That doesn't make any sense. When does a hadith hold any value for you then? Only when the content makes sense (to you)?

 

 

The view of the Shaykh and the narrations we have say that it was forced by Allah, so of course if it was forced by Allah then it was His Wisdom behind it as to why he did it in this way rather through another way. Although the 2 narrations we get from the Imams (as-Sadiq and al-Kadhim) do give reasoning as well which I have already mentioned before (so the rule can be learned and that it was a rahmah on the ummah, and that people don't taunt others in the future). What else is there for me to prove for you?

 

What I want to know is how and on what basis are you rejecting this event to have taken place, when it has been recorded in different narrations and in both Sunni and Shi'a books. What is your actual reasoning for rejecting the event? Is it the mere fact that it doesn't sit too well with what your understanding of ismah is? I want to know your reasoning and proofs that disproves this event even took place. 

 

 

How do you prove that the nature and purpose of a Prophet is to not make any mistakes in non-religious matters? Do you have any proof for this? It wasn't a mistake done while conveying a rule/law; it was a mistake done (caused by Allah) while performing salah, and then the correct rule/law was provided on what to do if one is in that situation. There was no haram done. As a matter of fact, this is one reason why Tark al-Awla makes no sense to me. No matter how much you sugarcoat it, it is still an act contrary to what is expected of a Prophet to do; so adherents of Tark al-Awla should either say that the act wasn't even a "lesser good" - it was the good it self and justify them (as some scholars have done) or admit that those were actually mistakes made by the Prophets. 'Aql says they came to deliver the religious knowledge, and therefore must be immune in those cases. How does 'aql prove that if the Prophet wanted to buy 5 oranges, but instead buys 6, it puts his Prophethood and our religion into jeopardy (of course that was an over-simplified example)? And if you prove this extent of infallibility (even in non-religious matters) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams through 'aql, are you ready to apply the same level of infallibility on all previous Prophets and every other Hujjah that was appointed by Allah on earth (like the time between Isa (as) and Muhammad (pbuh) and the proofs of Allah that must have been existing between that time span) because they are all there for similar purposes? If Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is even immune from Tark al-Awla, why aren't the other Prophets? Are you going to eventually resort to naqli sources to explain this?

 

Also remember everything is still revolving around "if" and "can" - not about he "did" (except the story of the salah).

 

 

What does "Allah made him forget" imply? He made him forget, and the Prophet finished the Salah in 2 rak'at. Allah is in control of all of our bodies at all times anyways, so I don't know where you were trying to get with that. This is why I agree with the other brother, that you are jumping up to your own conclusions on what Sheikh Saduq or others who believe in this view are even saying. The fact that they believe that Allah made him forget for whatever reason, did not impact the ismah of the Prophet. As a matter of fact, he says that if you deny them ismah you are an unbeliever. What they are saying however is that mistakes in non-religious matters would not go against 'aql. Allah didn't send down robots, is what they are trying to say.

 

 

The command of changing the Qibla was during Ru'ku while they were praying in Masjid al-Qiblatayn. It's not about whether it matters or not, it is just the type of question you are asking. Why did Allah want to command them while they are praying and make them change their direction mid-way. Why couldn't he just tell them right after that, or before they begun the Salah, or just tell the Prophet (pbuh) who would have then told the rest later. You won't have a reason, because some things you don't know the reason for. Likewise, this question is irrelevant as to why Allah would make him forget in order to teach. This forgetfulness did not come from Shaytan, it came from Allah - there is a big difference. That's why perhaps Imam Sadiq (as) refers to it as a blessing. That's just how Allah wanted it to be done, just because it doesn't make any sense to you (and I still don't know how that conforms to the definition of illogical) doesn't make it not possible. That's not really a refutation. Also, you are forgetting the event after the incident. That the rule was given as to what to do in that situation and it was carried out and thus the prayer was accepted. So it had no effect on anything, and no haram was done.

 

 

Well wake up and smell the coffee, because we have some very big big-shot scholars who believe in that rubbish. And these things don't make or break you as a Muslim (unless you are going to accuse some of our scholars of kufr or a lack of iman now), so I would stop getting so worked up over these things. Every scholar utilizes what is at their disposal at the given time and tries to make sense of it with their line of thinking and they arrive to these specific conclusions. If you have such strong opinions on matters like these where there is ikhtilaaf, you are better off trying to understand where the other side is coming from and disagree with it as you have the right to, instead of trying to decide what is rubbish and what isn't.

 

 

Had you been this blunt about it earlier, I wouldn't have wasted my time replying back. But thanks for the heads up  :squeez:.

 

 

Wasalaam

 

 

mashAllah brother what an essay. I might not respond to every post. This is my understanding for now, im not convinced.

 

One verse:  Your companion (The Holy Prophet) does not err, nor does he go astray (53:2)

 

It doesnt say errs in everything but religion, no it says does not err. I also dont get why you keep referring to this event/hadith as non-religious, it is completely religious and it is why we are discussing it in the first place. Every part of it has to do with religion.

 

As I said before, im not going to just make a conclusion and go with your opinion. First of all, saduq is a fallible being, so his words are not infallible. Now, your hadith you keep referring to, I will reject it mainly because of this verse. But, what I meant by I just dont accept hadiths because the are sahih, I mean in this case being sahih isnt enough man, sorry. If you have other instances where the prophet makes a mistake in which Allah makes him forget please post. I dont care if it is mentioned in sunni hadiths because they believe the prophet is nothing but a fallible being astagfirullah, so this cause they are willing to accept. I am only thinking about this from my own limited knowledge that I understand about the nature of Allah's system. Yes its possible God can make them forget cause He can do anything, but to do so means attacking the prophets infallibility. Whether Allah made him do so or not, a mistake is a mistake. What I meant about it being out of Allah's system is that, Allah made him commit a mistake while worshiping Allah during a mandatory prayer. Of course it isnt haram because he didnt do an act against Allah, but the fact is Allah made a prophet make a mistake just so to teach people. Prayer in which Imam Hussain goes far enough to die for is just done wrong "mistakenly" just so we can learn from it. I also dont think this is a situation where it is beyond our capabilities to comprehend so the "somethings are beyond our understanding" is not applicable, because as you say yourself, you already understand the whole purpose of it. It is the way it presented that breaks all understandings. A perfect God makes his Perfect prophet make a mistake that has to do with religious laws just so we fallible beings can learn from it. If a being is infallible and God makes him fallible for a sec, that still contradicts his infallibility, otherwise he isnt infallible in the first place. The prophet isnt a off and on switch. This wasnt something where a mistake had to happen so we learn. Yes, I do accept this for all prophets because they all never made mistakes from Adam A.S to Muhammad A.S. The prophets brought this religion to us, every single one of them. If any had the slightest mistake then my religion becomes questionable or imperfect.

 

By the way can you please post this hadith you keep referring to about the prophet praying 2 instead of 4. Thanks

 

wa salaam

Edited by PureEthics

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Ha, you are the ones who dispute on what you know; why then dispute you touching a matter of which you know not anything? God knows, and you know not.

(Quran)

Are you really ready to take the risk? Rejecting a Hadith is like arguing with imam, arguing with imam is arguing with Allah (since He had chose them) it is like saying I am better than Adam , I was made of fire and Adam is made of mud.

Imam Ali said : if only iblees knew what's in the mud.

 

Yes im taking this risk brother. I will dont jeopardize the system of Allah just for this one hadith that contradicts the system of prophets. Allah knows, if I am convinced I will change my opinion. Right now. I dont see any other option, because doing so breaks infallibility.

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I dont get how im acting arrogant.... I just dont see your argument. I dont understand this forceful behavior some of you that are putting on me. Its like your making me accept something which I myself cannot come to a conclusion about. I cannot come to accept something i intially rejected by having a few posts against it. As I mentioned numerous times, I cannot conclude into someones opinion so easily. This will be on my mind for a while, until im fully convinced I will not accept it. I just wanna add, this isnt a simple issue, to me it is very important.

 

Brother the danger of your approach, as explained by the Aa'imma (as) is rejecting the narration. You can't understand it? That's fine; halt, "return it back to them," and don't put forth an opinion. All you have to do is acknowledge the narration exists (which clearly it does, regardless if you believe it is authentic or not) and wait for Imam Mahdi to explain it to you, inshaa'Allah. But to say, "I am rejecting this hadeeth because I don't understand it or it's contrary to my understanding" effectively puts out of the fold of tashayyu. The Aa'imma (as) will not accept you as one of their Shi`a. 

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Brother the danger of your approach, as explained by the Aa'imma (as) is rejecting the narration. You can't understand it? That's fine; halt, "return it back to them," and don't put forth an opinion. All you have to do is acknowledge the narration exists (which clearly it does, regardless if you believe it is authentic or not) and wait for Imam Mahdi to explain it to you, inshaa'Allah. But to say, "I am rejecting this hadeeth because I don't understand it or it's contrary to my understanding" effectively puts out of the fold of tashayyu. The Aa'imma (as) will not accept you as one of their Shi`a. 

 

 

Brother than this means we all should fall into this category. No one should be imposing their opinion on anyone. But it isnt the case, cause everyone is entitled to their own view. We all post and discuss, im not telling anyone to follow me, i am just saying how I understand this issue. This is the first time I have heard rejecting a hadith means imams rejecting you, regardless of authenticity. The matter is to me this hadith isnt authentic because it contradicts the quran. I dont know if any of you are akbaris, but in my layman understanding, just because a hadith is sahih does not make it right and vis versa.

 

inshAllah may Allah make this issue clearer to us.

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The whole [flawed] argument of brother PureEthics is based on one translation he has seen of the ayah in Surat al-Najm.

 

Let me just post another translation and maybe he will re-consider his approach and realise that you can not base your understanding of a religion based on translations.

 

{ Surah Najm : Ayah 2 } Your companion has neither gone astray, nor gone amiss.

- Translation by Ali Quli Qarai. 

 

 

You need to determine firstly, where did you derive your understanding of 'ismah' from, and what made it right? Or any other belief you hold about Islam, God and His "system" etc. 

 

You've just constructed an image of God in your mind, and how He works, and how He must do things, without really providing any proofs. 

 

How does making small mistakes take away infallibility from you, or make you less worthy of following? Assuming that some of the prophets committed 'tark al-awla', does that mean after they did so then people no longer have to listen to them according to God's 'system'? 

 

It is not that people here are asking you to listen to the words of Shaykh Suduq (ra), rather they are trying to save your akhirah by holding you back from outright rejecting hadiths. 

 

The definition of Ismah has gone through several changes amongst the shia throughout their history, that is not to say what we have today is the wrong one, and on the opposite side, the best one. These are all things we must consider when making opinions on matters. 

 

It's extremely disturbing to see the attitude some of you brothers have developed against the sciences of hadith, or views of the qudamaa (just because it doesn't fit in with your - fallible - rationalizing). These people were a lot more careful than me and you when attributing something to God, His religion or His agents of guidence, they tried to stay as close to what they thought was the apparent understanding of the Qur'an and Hadith. 
 

Also, we are discussing the hadiths that discuss forgetfulness that history has allowed to reach us, Sheikh Suduq (ra) apparently wrote a book on the issue, and knowing him and his other works, his books were mostly based on, if not consisted completely of narrations. He was able to collect a whole book on forgetfulness! that seems like maybe more than just one or two hadiths to me. 

 

Myself, from what i have understood, i take infallibility to mean infallibility from sins. 

 

Whether they could forget or not, i think i might not even bring that into the discussion of infallibility and rather discuss it elsewhere. We  could see what the causes are for someone to forget, and analyse if those could affect the Imams. We could discuss the social and psychological effects of forgetting and its impact on people accepting religious propagation. 

 

I think it is foolish to take such a staunch and definite stance for any of the sides, if we are really confused, we do 'tawaqquf'. We can lean to one side if we have proof, but that shouldn't mean outright rejecting the possibility of the other, unless (again) we have proof.    

 

Remember, we are not here to construct the characters of the Imams (as) the way we want them to be, that has been done by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, we are here to understand them as they were. 

 

I wouldn't reject my Imam if he forgot a small thing or two, especially since his purpose is to guide me in religious matters, and i know he can't make a mistake in that. 

 

The `urafaa usually have their own explanation of why the Imams can not forget, but this post has already gotten to long. 

Edited by Al-Englisi

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only clarification to this is.....

 

 

nothing is like GOD and none is like GOD, GOD is unique and he is free from wants and he is free from mistakes....

 

Allah hu akbar

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The thing is, the Hadith has no chain(1) and it comes right after a Hadith that say the total opposite of every element of this Hadith (2) but most importantly, the used translation in this topic is using mistake to translate sahow which means absent mind, the Hadith dose not use the word nisyan ( forgetting) nor khataa ( miscalculation)

I just find it . .... Weird that some peeps jump to conclusions and take absurd dicisions based on .,,,,.... Hehe based on fun

I think it is very rewarding to win online debate for some

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