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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Do Shias Really Think About Abu Bakr (Ra)?

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  • Advanced Member
Posted

Thanks brother ameen

I am neither an expert nor a scholar

I m simple guy of ordinary jurisprudence

Although I have one hobby

I like collecting Hadith in the merit of mola e KAINAT

Imam ALI IBN e ABI TALIB SHER KHUDA mushkil khush as and

SYEDA KAINAT sa and HUSSNAIN KAREEMAIN as.... And I send them

To people via text and any other means or verbally....

I have a few requests, if u consider them than it will be great

1) we both should look for references

2) I don't want any harsh discussion on the children of the IMAMS as for me

It would be amounting to disgrace HAZRAT ALI AS and

BIBI FATHIMA SA.....

3) if people start fighting on the names of children of ahal e bayt after this post....

Ill probably feel guilty as that would amount to insulting the IMAMS of ahal e bayt if we start saying this is the name

Or that is the name...

4) I have got Shia references for this only.... Is that ok brother AMEEN????

Yes, absolutely. I am a person with a wide mind and an open heart. I do not have a mindset. I like to discuss and debate things, with a positive attitude and a pleasant manner. If something turns out to be true, i will accept it. I wont put up a confrontational stance and i'm not arrogant and ignorant. I don't think there is anything else for me to say. I'm sure you must have got my picture now.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salam brother AMEEN

Hope u r doing good

Thanks for your words above

I will try my best SADQAH AHAL E BAYT to give u the

References in my next post INSHALLAH

one thing I forgot to mention was that IMAM MOSA KAZIM AS also had son

Whose name umar

Ill give u the reference soon INSHALLAH but I won't take ages , hopefully by tomorrow

I pray to Allah SWT that may he accept my effort and keep u open minded ..... Allah

SWT can change hearts/opinions any time.

Take care brother AMEEN

JAZAK Allah KHAIR

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salam brother AMEEN

Hope u r doing well

I just want to clarify to you that I can't watch posts and in the same way hundred of posts

I can also put but that's not how I am going to approach things

You have me ur word that u r a positive and neutral minded thinker and

I am entering into this decent and mature dialogu with u on that basis.

I believe u to respect my stance

I would also like to lucidly mention that I will only respond to your posts brother AMEEN as I

Don't want to be in a position where soon multiple people will have a go at me....

As I mentioned earlier that I m no scholar but one thing I do is love prophets family and I will try to bring light to you

As regards to the names.

Name of book: kasf ul ghumma fi marifatul aimma(spellings can be wrong)

Name of author : ALI bin Issa arbili

Vol: 2

Pg: 66, 67, 201, 317

Vol:3

Pg: 27, 57, 174

Name of chapter: children of IMAM ALI AS

published: khum-tabraiz-Iran

Also another book NASIKH O TAWARIKH also refers to the same facts, I don't have exact

Pg numbers for it but it also explains the same facts....

These r two top notch books

I believe in the name of HASSAN AS and HUSSAIN AS u will not be needing further explanation.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

I will give u brief facts of what is in these pages

It is in no specific order

HAZRAT ALI as married umm e habibah and had a son from her named umar

HAZRAT ali as also married laila bunt masood and had a son named Abu bakr

HAZRAT ALI also married someone Umm ul banin bint hizam and had a son named usman and USMAN bin ALI was martyred in Karbala.

NOTE: this narration is taken from sheikh al mufeed mujtahid e Azeem of Shia school of thought and it is further narrated by three different ways as well.... All coming to same conclusion.

It also says on pg 201 that HAZRAT ALI as had sons named Ismail, yaqoob, abdullah, Abdur rehaman, talha, jaffar, etc including Abu bakr, umar and usman.....

On page 317 it says imam zain ul Abiden as had sons named al baqir, Zaid, Abu bakr , umar, etc

On page 27 it says that imam musa kazim had sons named umar bin musa kazim, ALI raza, Aqeel, haroon, yahya, jaffar etc

On pg 57 it says imam ALI raza had one daughter named Ayesha and on the same page there is a narration from hafiz Abdul aziz bin akhtar janabzi which stated the same fact....

On pg 174 imam hassan Askari had one daughter and he named her Ayesha... All this can also be found in NASIKH o TAWARIKH another book ....

Similarly imam ALI NAQI had a daughter named Ayesha in volume three

And it goes on and on

Another important fact : IMAM HASSAN AS had a son named Abu bakr and Abu bakr bin hassan bin ALI e MURTAZA was martyred in Karbala by ABDULLAH bin uqbah al ghanavi yazeedi.

Edited by Advocate123
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

I will give u brief facts of what is in these pages

It is in no specific order

HAZRAT ALI as married umm e habibah and had a son from her named umar

HAZRAT ali as also married laila bunt masood and had a son named Abu bakr

HAZRAT ALI also married someone Umm ul banin bint hizam and had a son named usman and USMAN bin ALI was martyred in Karbala.

NOTE: this narration is taken from sheikh al mufeed mujtahid e Azeem of Shia school of thought and it is further narrated by three different ways as well.... All coming to same conclusion.

It also says on pg 201 that HAZRAT ALI as had sons named Ismail, yaqoob, abdullah, Abdur rehaman, talha, jaffar, etc including Abu bakr, umar and usman.....

On page 317 it says imam zain ul Abiden as had sons named al baqir, Zaid, Abu bakr , umar, etc

On page 27 it says that imam musa kazim had sons named umar bin musa kazim, ALI raza, Aqeel, haroon, yahya, jaffar etc

On pg 57 it says imam ALI raza had one daughter named Ayesha and on the same page there is a narration from hafiz Abdul aziz bin akhtar janabzi which stated the same fact....

On pg 174 imam hassan Askari had one daughter and he named her Ayesha... All this can also be found in NASIKH o TAWARIKH another book ....

Similarly imam ALI NAQI had a daughter named Ayesha in volume three

And it goes on and on

Another important fact : IMAM HASSAN AS had a son named Abu bakr and Abu bakr bin hassan bin ALI e MURTAZA was martyred in Karbala by ABDULLAH bin uqbah al ghanavi yazeedi.

 

ok i haven't gone through any of these yet, but one thing that JUMPS OUT right away

 

Imam Hassan Askari A.S was under house arrest his entire life, he had guards watching over him to make sure that he didnt have any children. He only had one child which was the Imam of our time, Imam Mahdi (A.S) so that fact about him having a daughter is totally false and impossible and therefore a fabricated tradition.

 

As for why Imam Ali A.S named 3 of his sons Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, here is a very good khutba that may answer a lot of your questions

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Sci_UWFHY

Edited by Kirmani
  • Advanced Member
Posted

Brother Muslim 720, let me ask you one simple question, according to history books companions like Hazrath Ali, Hazrath Ammar, Hazrath Miqdad, Hazrath Abu Zarr, Hazrath Salmaan and many more, were not present at Sakeefa and were not part of the gathering and meeting at Sakeefa and they severly opposed the decision that, was made in Sakeefa and refused to accept Hazrath Abu Bakar as Khalifaa and did not give bayath to him. Now do you believe that threatening behaviour and extreme force was used against these companions, to get them to accept the decision made in Sakeefa??? Was violence used by the Shaikhain on those companions, who objected and rejected, the decision made in sakeefa, to such an extent that, Hazrath Fatimah (as) was ignored to such a level that she got injured???

 

Salaam alaykum brother,

The matter of khilaafat, and the complexities that come with it, has been haunting mankind since the creation of Adam (as).  The infallible, sinless angels (as) thought that one from amongst them should have been considered to be Allah's vicegerent.  So even if a member of Ahlul Bayt (ra) - all of whom are infallible according to our Shia brothers - thought that he should have been chosen as the khalifah does not entitle him to be the Caliph.  If the angels can want it for one of themselves, then it is understandable if someone from Ahlul Bayt ra wanted it for himself.

 

Allah, after hearing the angels, corrected them and they all accepted the Khilaafat of Adam [as].  If it was Allah's will for anyone else to become the Khalifah - baiyah or no baiyah (I am not belittling the importance of baiyah but just highlighting the Will of Allah) - Abu Bakr [ra] would have never been declared as the Khalifah.  To say that Abu Bakr [ra] took away from Ali (ra) what was Divinely Appointed for him, or that Abu Bakr (ra) delayed Ali's [ra] Khilaafat, is to set limits upon Allah's Power.  Seek repentance when you think of such things, let alone utter them.

 

Now, going back to what the Qur'an says about the Khilaafat of Adam (as) and comparing it to the Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra], if we reject the Khilaafat of the latter - which was Allah's Will - are we following the example of the angels or of Iblees?

 

The Sahaba (ra) you have mentioned were all pious Muslims and even if they were missing, they eventually accepted the Caliphate of Abu Bakr [ra].  To say that they gave bayah because they were forced is to say that they could not stand for Divine decree (Imamat of Ali ra) and pledged allegiance to tyranny.  To say that Imam Ali (ra) - the Lion of Allah - was forced is to say that he considered his life more precious to the Will of Allah (which supposedly was his Imamat).  To expound upon all of this - to sum up your last point - and to say that Bibi Fatima (ra) was kicked and injured while Imam Ali [ra] did nothing is the biggest insult to be levelled against Ahlul Bayt (ra).  Finally, what Sulaym ibn Qais narrated in his book is nothing more than a fabrication only designed to create a false image of those whom the Prophet (saw) loved dearly, namely, Ali, Fatima, Abu Bakr, Umar and the rest of the Sahaba (may Allah's peace be upon them and may Allah be pleased with them all).

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salam brother AMEEN

People are too busy posting you tubes

I just want to let u know that what I m doing will be just for u

I hope u r doing good anyways

JAZAK Allah KHER

Also I can answer to the above post as well because u have only chosen/ posted about one thing u knew and refrained from commenting on others and for remaining u have posted you tube.... Anyways brother AMEEN my interest is in you because u were the first one to answer my question

My whole attention , knowledge and calibre is dedicated towards you.

Also brother AMEEN if we both start posting you tube than I think there is no point discussing.

I have mentioned two books above and one is clearly referenced as well.... I cannot dare committ the sin of giving

The names to the children of ahal e bayt from my own imagination.

If u r neutral, open hearted as u said and I believe u to be

INSHALLAH the calibre and my knowledge will leave some or even a small mark on ur open heart INSHALLAH

JAZAK Allah KHER

Posted

Salaam alaykum brother,

The matter of khilaafat, and the complexities that come with it, has been haunting mankind since the creation of Adam (as).  The infallible, sinless angels (as) thought that one from amongst them should have been considered to be Allah's vicegerent.  So even if a member of Ahlul Bayt (ra) - all of whom are infallible according to our Shia brothers - thought that he should have been chosen as the khalifah does not entitle him to be the Caliph.  If the angels can want it for one of themselves, then it is understandable if someone from Ahlul Bayt ra wanted it for himself.

 

Allah, after hearing the angels, corrected them and they all accepted the Khilaafat of Adam [as].  If it was Allah's will for anyone else to become the Khalifah - baiyah or no baiyah (I am not belittling the importance of baiyah but just highlighting the Will of Allah) - Abu Bakr [ra] would have never been declared as the Khalifah.  To say that Abu Bakr [ra] took away from Ali (ra) what was Divinely Appointed for him, or that Abu Bakr (ra) delayed Ali's [ra] Khilaafat, is to set limits upon Allah's Power.  Seek repentance when you think of such things, let alone utter them.

 

Now, going back to what the Qur'an says about the Khilaafat of Adam (as) and comparing it to the Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra], if we reject the Khilaafat of the latter - which was Allah's Will - are we following the example of the angels or of Iblees?

 

The Sahaba (ra) you have mentioned were all pious Muslims and even if they were missing, they eventually accepted the Caliphate of Abu Bakr [ra].  To say that they gave bayah because they were forced is to say that they could not stand for Divine decree (Imamat of Ali ra) and pledged allegiance to tyranny.  To say that Imam Ali (ra) - the Lion of Allah - was forced is to say that he considered his life more precious to the Will of Allah (which supposedly was his Imamat).  To expound upon all of this - to sum up your last point - and to say that Bibi Fatima (ra) was kicked and injured while Imam Ali [ra] did nothing is the biggest insult to be levelled against Ahlul Bayt (ra).  Finally, what Sulaym ibn Qais narrated in his book is nothing more than a fabrication only designed to create a false image of those whom the Prophet (saw) loved dearly, namely, Ali, Fatima, Abu Bakr, Umar and the rest of the Sahaba (may Allah's peace be upon them and may Allah be pleased with them all).

 

 

 

 

(1) The title of caliphate used in the Quran cannot merely mean just Prophets, nor can it means just mere Caliphs, but are of both, as you see how Allah appoined Talut, the Successor of Jesus (a.s) an the Successors of prophet Solomon and the Twelve Caliphates Appointed by Allah for Bani Israel, which I am sure you are of knowledge of and therefore the Title of does not merely menas prophets as you have failed previously failed to be honest and confront my last explanations on this, instead you have chosen to steer the topic to another issue, which his not very surprising at all. Its clear that Only Allah Appoints leaders for the Nation, and no where in the past of history of the prophets (s) we find that a Nations comes and simply creates a "Leader" to guide, this never existed, nor has there been any proof of such of such a system in Book of Allah being mentioned.

(2) Concerning the issue of the Caliphate of Imam Ali (a.s) I believe even you must come to an Agreement that he was appointed, if your not, you are creating your own historical imagination, as far as to the extent with the reasons and Narrations/Traditions we have its clear on who the Imam Should be after the prophet (s) and the concept of "Election" after the prophet peace be upon him is of Falsehood from the very people who made it to be so, and everyone who has pledged Allegiance to ABu bakr has infact disobeyed the prophet (s), as the prophey said I have left Two Caliphs the book of Allah and My ahlulbayt (a.s) and the issue of Ghadeer khum is clear (I am able to provide a massive amount of Narrations from your own books be assured) as for the issue of breaking of the ribs of Fatima (a.s) you are not being very honest with your self to claim that it is only mentioned through Sulaim Ibn Qias, it has in fact being mentioned through more than just 3 or 6 people, and through Ahlul-Sunnah narrations dear brother and I can also give evidence of Authentic Traditions of this event if you wish so, However you ignore many reasons of this as we find and I ask you: (1) how did the Muhsin Die? (2) Give me one narration where Fatima died in bed. (3) Where is the Grave of Fatima (a.s), Hadhrath Fatima Zahra (sa) died 6 months after her father (saaws), Hadhrath Abu Bakr died two and a half years later and Hadhrath Umar in 24 Hijri. Despite their later deaths how is it that they attained burial sites next to the Prophet (saaws) and not Hadhrath Fatima (as)? Did she request that she be buried away from her father? If so, why? Or did the Muslims prevent her burial? (see Sahih al Bukhari Arabic – English Vol 5 hadith number 546).

 

 

___________

(wasalam)

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salaam alaykum,

Have 5 minutes on my hand so thought I will quickly address your two points.

 

(1)  I need not say anything more because it is obvious who you choose to follow.

 

(2)  Forget about our narrations, you won't even find it in your own!  Fatima (sa) being injured by Umar [ra] - to the point that she had a miscarriage - is a Shia aqeedah so it has nothing to do with our hadiths and let me assure you that you will not find this narration in Al-Kafi, the most trustworthy volume among your four Shia books of hadith.  But let me ask you a question.  Does this incident, about which Ayatollah Fadlullah (rah) said that it is not true, make you angry with Umar [ra] and other Sahaba [ra]?  Does it bother you, like do you feel agitated, enraged or frustrated?

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Wa iyak brother!

 

Allah [swt] says, "This is their description in the Taurāt (Torah).  But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot then makes it strong it then becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem delighting the sowers that He may enrage the disbelievers with them.  Allāh has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islāmic Monotheism the religion of Prophet Muhammad SAW till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise). (Al-Fath 48:29)

 

Look at this calamity that has fallen upon the ummah.  One, we follow Iblees and refuse a Khilaafat that was ordained by Allah [swt] (if the Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra] was not Allah's Will then how did it come into being?).  Two, we use fabricated lies to launch a verbal assault on those whom Allah [swt] is pleased with and Allah [swt] says about them that they only fill the disbelievers with rage.  So if the mention of Umar [ra] or other Sahaba [ra] fills anyone of us with rage, then that person is in the camp of disbelievers.

 

So to recap, some of us have taken Iblees and disbelievers as our role-models.  I seek refuge in Allah from Satan!

Edited by muslim720
  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salaam brother Muslim 720. Very short of time but enough to make a quick point. You said "If the Khilaafath of Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was not Allah's will, then how did it come into being?". Brother even a leaf doesn't grow or move without Allah's knowledge and permission but one needs to understand the depth of Allah's statements. Let me bring 2 verses to your attention. To be continued!

Continued!

Brother Muslim 720, here is the 1st verse: Surah Al Ambia, verse 73, "And we made them Imaams (leaders) because they guide (people) by our command". The 2nd verse is: Surah Al Qasas, verse 41, "And we made them Imaams (leaders) because they invite (people) to the fire". To be continued!

Continued! Now brother Muslim 720, if you examine these two verses, you will come to the conclusion that, Allah has made way and allowed leaders to come to power for two reasons, which he has clearly mentioned with both verses. So if someone has come into power, by or through what ever means, yes it has happened due to the will of Allah but this can't be used has justification, for them to be righteous or this was their right or what has happened is just.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

JazakAllah khair brothers!  As for brother Ameen, I would like to say that the word "Imam" in Qur'an has also been used for inanimate objects, like road, book, et cetera.  Here is one example, “So we took vengeance on them; And verily, the two (cities) are on a clear road (imam).”  (Qur'an 15:79)

 

As you rightly stated, it has also been used for those who would invite us to the Fire, those who are misguided.  Here is an example, “And We made them leaders (imams) who call towards the Fire.”  (Qur'an 28:41)

 

However, in the light of all the instances of the word "Imam" - I have read that it is used five times for inanimate objects and seven times for people (humans) - if you analyze each one of them qualitatively and quantitatively, it shatters the claim by our Shia brothers that Ibrahim [asws] was chosen an Imam after he was declared a Prophet, thus Imamat exists in the Qur'an.  If you study the word "Imam" in the Qur'an, in all its uses, it does more damage to the assertion of our Shia brothers that Imamat is in the Qur'an because it directly opposes infallibility.  How can an infallible Imam call someone to the Fire?  By the same token, if Imamah does not guarantee infallibility and righteousness (as Qur'an 28:41 shows that imams could call us towards Fire), then there is no infallibility.  Either ways, it is a lose-lose situation for our brothers who cling on to Imamat of infallibles by trying to support their aqeedah by bringing up the verse about "imamat" of Ibrahim [asws].

 

Coming to the Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra], it is a little different from what you have put forth.  First, we do not consider him an Imam; we consider him a rightly-guided Caliph.  Second, we do not consider him (nor Umar, Uthman or Ali.....may Allah be pleased with them all) an infallible leader.  But what I wanted to get across is that Abu Bakr [ra] was nominated the Caliph before Ali [ra].  So those who believe that Ali [ra] should have been the Imam and his Imamat was ordained by Allah fail to see that they are limiting Allah because they ignore that three leaders came before Ali [ra].  In a nutshell, it is like saying that these three individuals reversed or delayed the Will of Allah [swt]. 

 

Finally, when we read in Shia books that Imam Ali [ra] himself refused to accept the Khilaafat, it basically insinuates that Ali [ra] was opposed to carrying out the Will of Allah [swt].  And there is nothing in me that would accept that Imam Ali [ra] was disobedient to Allah [swt].....just typing that statement makes me want to repent :(

  • Advanced Member
Posted

My dear brother Muslim 720, just because somebody has come into power, one should not automatically and uncondiionally accept that, what has happened or has taken place, must be just, true and correct, otherwise it wouldn't have happened and one totally disregards the circumstances, condition, situation, reason and nature by or through, which one has come into power, since this is totally against the Quran and Sunnah. The same reason can be used for Ameer Muavia, whom the Ahle Sunnah do not consider as amongst the rightly guided (Haq Char Yaar). Correct me if i'm wrong please.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

My dear brother Muslim 720, just because somebody has come into power, one should not automatically and uncondiionally accept that, what has happened or has taken place, must be just, true and correct, otherwise it wouldn't have happened and one totally disregards the circumstances, condition, situation, reason and nature by or through, which one has come into power, since this is totally against the Quran and Sunnah.

 

Every "logical" argument is a response to a particular set of audience or debaters.  You are right; circumstances and conditions cannot be ignored but amongst Muslims, between Shias and Sunnis, those who speak ill of Abu Bakr [ra] because he "stole the Divinely Ordained right of Ali [ra]" must think about what I have shared.  Do they think that Abu Bakr [ra] was capable of denying the Will of Allah [swt] or even delaying it?  No human can do that!  Therefore, they must admit that the whole concept of Imamat does not add up.  To add insult to injury, we read the Imam Ali [ra] refused to accept leadership of the ummah.

 

So going back, let us not follow Iblees and bicker over what has already taken place.  Let us not be filled with rage, like disbelievers, by the mention of those whom Allah [swt] is pleased with.  Finally, let us not insert in Islam which does not belong in it.

Posted (edited)

Salaam alaykum,

Have 5 minutes on my hand so thought I will quickly address your two points.

 

(1)  I need not say anything more because it is obvious who you choose to follow.

 

(2)  Forget about our narrations, you won't even find it in your own!  Fatima (sa) being injured by Umar [ra] - to the point that she had a miscarriage - is a Shia aqeedah so it has nothing to do with our hadiths and let me assure you that you will not find this narration in Al-Kafi, the most trustworthy volume among your four Shia books of hadith.  But let me ask you a question.  Does this incident, about which Ayatollah Fadlullah ÑÖí Çááøå ÚÜäÜå said that it is not true, make you angry with Umar [ra] and other Sahaba [ra]?  Does it bother you, like do you feel agitated, enraged or frustrated?

 

 

(1) You still have not told me hot the Caliphate of Abu bakr and Umar, how its legit according to the Quran and the Sunnah?

(2) Miscarriage? Can you please lead us to the Narration? your so Sure of your self brother I am very impressed. And yet you did not Answer the Questions above.

(3) Dear brother I don't want you to face defeat at this stage so I will advise you to not use Fadllulah has a Hujja upon me, No it does not anger me, because he merely questioned the Incident, But here never Rejected the Issue of it happening (He says so him self), I can even Show you from his own official site. I wish people would read before putting bold statements.

 

 

 

 

 

 
Look at this calamity that has fallen upon the ummah.  One, we follow Iblees and refuse a Khilaafat that was ordained by Allah [swt] (if the Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra] was not Allah's Will then how did it come into being?).  Two, we use fabricated lies to launch a verbal assault on those whom Allah [swt] is pleased with and Allah [swt] says about them that they only fill the disbelievers with rage.  So if the mention of Umar [ra] or other Sahaba [ra] fills anyone of us with rage, then that person is in the camp of disbelievers.

 

 

 

(1) Dear brother I do not understand how your making these Statements? do you know what your saying? How is the Caliphate of Abu bakr ad Umar the Will of Allah? When the people them selves (A Bunch of people) Came down and make their own Little Elections. Not even a Democracy, rather a Dictatorship under a group pf people. Tell me Why did Imam Ali (a.s) not Participate in the event of "Shura"? did he have no right to? Oh..wait...he was to busy burying the Grave of the prophet (s) and praying over him, and where was Abu bakr and Umar than? Since when was the guidance of the Ummah In the hands of Abu bakr and Umar? Since When did the prophet peace be upon him give such orders? Did the prophet Appoint Imam Ali (a.s) or not? How every strange.

 

(2) Do you even know how many people did not give Bay'ya to Abu bakr and Umar? Wait do you actually know how many of the companions did not attend the election "Shura"? Do you even know the number of the people at that particular time? there should be no need for me to bring Narrations as you should ready know this since you seem to confident of your self. (I can Show you a list of Companions who did not attend I assure you)

 

   

__________

(wasalam)

 

Edited by TheIslamHistory
  • Advanced Member
Posted

Brother Muslim 720

It's simple man

HAZRAT ALI AS named his sons after the caliphs

Imam zain ul ab as did the same

Imam hassan as did the same

Imam musa kazim as did the same

Imam ALI NAQI as did the same

imam ALI raza did the same

So it's out of love and affection

What ever people say now

That's end of story man

Brother Muslim 720

This discussion will go on and on

I like ur point when u said how can the three caliphs delay the will of Allah SWT

Impossible man

There can be no answer to it

My advice to you brother Muslim 720 is to refrain from commenting more.

JAZAK Allah KHER

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(1)  "And those who respond to their Lord, and pray regularly, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and give of what We have provided them."  (Qur'an 42:38) 

(2)  Do you know about Muhsin ibn Ali?  It is alleged that Fatima (sa) miscarried Muhsin when Umar [ra] kicked the door of her house while she was pregnant with Muhsin.

(3)  That still says a lot because this fabrication is a huge dividing factor between Muslims.  Reject or question, that is a monumental step towards bringing Muslims closer to the truth.


Brother Muslim 720
It's simple man
HAZRAT ALI AS named his sons after the caliphs
Imam zain ul ab as did the same
Imam hassan as did the same
Imam musa kazim as did the same
Imam ALI NAQI as did the same
imam ALI raza did the same
So it's out of love and affection
What ever people say now
That's end of story man
Brother Muslim 720
This discussion will go on and on
I like ur point when u said how can the three caliphs delay the will of Allah SWT
Impossible man
There can be no answer to it
My advice to you brother Muslim 720 is to refrain from commenting more.
JAZAK Allah KHER

 

Wa iyak!  I have read about the Ahlul Bayt [ra] naming their children after Sahabas [ra] but let us proceed one topic at a time.  And the best way to come closer - as Muslims - is to question, criticize and set aside Imamat.  Rest falls into place perfectly :)

Posted

 

 

 
However, in the light of all the instances of the word "Imam" - I have read that it is used five times for inanimate objects and seven times for people (humans) - if you analyze each one of them qualitatively and quantitatively, it shatters the claim by our Shia brothers that Ibrahim [asws] was chosen an Imam after he was declared a Prophet, thus Imamat exists in the Qur'an.  If you study the word "Imam" in the Qur'an, in all its uses, it does more damage to the assertion of our Shia brothers that Imamat is in the Qur'an because it directly opposes infallibility.  How can an infallible Imam call someone to the Fire?  By the same token, if Imamah does not guarantee infallibility and righteousness (as Qur'an 28:41 shows that imams could call us towards Fire), then there is no infallibility.  Either ways, it is a lose-lose situation for our brothers who cling on to Imamat of infallibles by trying to support their aqeedah by bringing up the verse about "imamat" of Ibrahim [asws].

 

 

 

(1) You must be Ignorant of Arabic I see, as we all know that no matter what the context when use my dear brother, the Word "Imam" will remain in its paradigm of meanings and cannot merely change, we are not the ones who had the courage to put brackets and give it another meaning (misleading people sadly), And the verse you are referring to does not Refer to "our" "Imams" it refer to those "Misleading" Imams, who people have followed, and does not refer to the Imams that Allah "wants" you to follow, if Allah wants you to follow Someone, then it cannot possibly he lead you to Hellfire? and how can this be? So its clearly that the following verse is referring to those of falsehood that were not Appointed By Allah and whom people took as leaders. Who was your Imam? Do Forget brother? the prophet peace be upon clearly said: Who he does not know the Caliphate (Imam), he has died the death of ignorant. Even you cannot disagree with me on this, it clearly shows us the importance of coming to a Recognition without selves and the realization of whom we should be following. And there always an Emphasis, and clearly, surely most clearly, Only Allah Appoints whom he wills to guide his Nation.

______________

 

 

 

 

 

 

Coming to the Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra], it is a little different from what you have put forth.  First, we do not consider him an Imam; we consider him a rightly-guided Caliph.  Second, we do not consider him (nor Umar, Uthman or Ali.....may Allah be pleased with them all) an infallible leader.  But what I wanted to get across is that Abu Bakr [ra] was nominated the Caliph before Ali [ra].  So those who believe that Ali [ra] should have been the Imam and his Imamat was ordained by Allah fail to see that they are limiting Allah because they ignore that three leaders came before Ali [ra].  In a nutshell, it is like saying that these three individuals reversed or delayed the Will of Allah [swt]. 

 

 

(2 n) Are you knowledgeable in Arabic? In the context of Imam, it means leadership and Caliphate, you do not even know the meaning of this concept and yet it exist throughout the whole life time of the prophets (peace be upon them), and in your false theory here, Just because Imam Ali (a.s) was not Nominated first, how does that Justify the acts of Abu bakr anf Umar leaving the prophet peace be upon him behind for an election? You still have not justified the concept of "Shura" in the terms and means to Guide the Ummah from the Quran as I asked you to, and you are failing to do so, and yet till today we see no Proof that they have truly being appoint by Allah, rather they have created their own Form of choosing.

 

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salaam brothers. My dear brother Muslim 720, you have raised alot of issues and one can only discuss in detail, one issue at a time. I am going to proceed with what you have said that, if something happens (some person comes in to power) then this must be the will of Allah and therefore must be just, righteous and acceptable. Lets use your theory and take a look at Yazeed. How many accepted him and how many opposed him. Vast majority of the Muslim Ummah was with him. Some accepted him, some remained silent, some didn't care and only 72 opposed and challenged him. So would you consider Yazeed as just, righteous and acceptable, since he got in to power and this also must be the will of Allah??? Otherwise he wouldn't have got in to power. And what is your opinion on Ameer Muavia??? Why isn't he among the rightly guided and Khulafaa-e-Rashedoon???

The verses i've put forward to you, brother Muslim 720, speak about leaders (Imaams) in human form. The just and fair as well as the unjust and unfair, both the good as well as the bad, the pious as well as the evil, the right as well as the wrong and the true as well as the false have all got into power.

Brother Muslim 720

It's simple man

HAZRAT ALI AS named his sons after the caliphs

Imam zain ul ab as did the same

Imam hassan as did the same

Imam musa kazim as did the same

Imam ALI NAQI as did the same

imam ALI raza did the same

So it's out of love and affection

What ever people say now

That's end of story man

Brother Muslim 720

This discussion will go on and on

I like ur point when u said how can the three caliphs delay the will of Allah SWT

Impossible man

There can be no answer to it

My advice to you brother Muslim 720 is to refrain from commenting more.

JAZAK Allah KHER

Salaam brother. I will take timeout and look in to this, in great detail and depth. I haven't forgotten.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salaam brothers. My dear brother Muslim 720, you have raised alot of issues and one can only discuss in detail, one issue at a time. I am going to proceed with what you have said that, if something happens (some person comes in to power) then this must be the will of Allah and therefore must be just, righteous and acceptable. Lets use your theory and take a look at Yazeed. How many accepted him and how many opposed him. Vast majority of the Muslim Ummah was with him. Some accepted him, some remained silent, some didn't care and only 72 opposed and challenged him. So would you consider Yazeed as just, righteous and acceptable, since he got in to power and this also must be the will of Allah??? Otherwise he wouldn't have got in to power. And what is your opinion on Ameer Muavia??? Why isn't he among the rightly guided and Khulafaa-e-Rashedoon???

The verses i've put forward to you, brother Muslim 720, speak about leaders (Imaams) in human form. The just and fair as well as the unjust and unfair, both the good as well as the bad, the pious as well as the evil, the right as well as the wrong and the true as well as the false have all got into power.

 

 

You have totally misunderstood my point.  Maybe I did not do a good job in communicating them.  InshAllah, once I get home, I will get back to you.  Also, I have limited posts per day - some restriction on my account since I'm fairly new to this site - so I have to wisely select what I respond to and what I ignore.  Today, or at the latest tomorrow, I will edit this post and add to my points so that they are easier to understand.

Posted
(1)  "And those who respond to their Lord, and pray regularly, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and give of what We have provided them."  (Qur'an 42:38) 

 

 

(1) Firs of all I hope your not being Serious? How is this verse go to do with anything on Selecting the caliph of the Nation? the people have no right to deal with the affairs of Allah, and certainly not appoint the guide of Ummah for, the verse is for Dealing with your own affairs, and not the affairs of the prophet peace be upon him and Allah. The verse is the Advise of preforming an action that is to come to a consensus among people with their Worldly affairs and not the affairs of Allah. Tell me did they chose their Caliphate? or did Allah Appoint them 12 Caliphs by his own choice? So you expect Allah to not do anything for the Last of his nation?

 

 

(2)  Do you know about Muhsin ibn Ali?  It is alleged that Fatima (sa) miscarried Muhsin when Umar [ra] kicked the door of her house while she was pregnant with Muhsin.

 

(1) Of course I know, as he was Smashed bu the door, which Umar and his likes Kicked.

(2) You still have not answered the above.

 

 

(3)  That still says a lot because this fabrication is a huge dividing factor between Muslims.  Reject or question, that is a monumental step towards bringing Muslims closer to the truth.

 

 

(1) I think your using a one persons Opinion on the whole of our sect? And do you know how many people of Scholars have come to an agreement of this issue? the issue of the breaking of door of Fatima (a.s) was come to a Consensus on and Fadlullah, Never rejected the issue. So tell me does Ibn Tayimha say alot about your sect? can I apply all that of which we considers an view point of your sect? yes or no? if yes, I would happily criticize how, you accept his position on Ahlulbayt (a.s).

 

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Brother Muslim 720, you said "In the Quran the word Imaam has also been used for inanimate objects". Brother, when did i say it hasn't??? But the two verses that i've mentioned, what has the word Imaam been used as in them???

Posted

Brother Muslim 720, you said "In the Quran the word Imaam has also been used for inanimate objects". Brother, when did i say it hasn't??? But the two verses that i've mentioned, what has the word Imaam been used as in them???

 

 

I don't know how they accept this, the Word it self in the Arabic context does not Allow it, Imam has more than 8-10 meanings and no where I see it of this in the spectrum of Arabic literature, they have made a false act of putting brackets and saying something else of it.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salam brother Ameen

When u look into depth, please look the ut-infra:

The families of the caliphs and the ahal e bayt have been giving daughter and sons to each other in marriage as well.

- mother of imam jaffar as sadiq as was the grand daughter of HAZRAT Abu bakr , meaning thereby , that hazrat Abu bakr was great grand father of imam jaffar as sadiq as from mothers side.

- Also imam jaffar as used to say that I m son of Abu bakr through two lineages.

- Also imam hassan as got married to grand daughter of Hazrat Abu bakr

- Also imam hassan again got married to daughter of Hazrat Usman

- Also again this time imam hussain as got married to daughter of Hazrat Usman after the death of imam hassan as

- also imam Hussain as got his daughter married to the grandson of Hazrat usman.

- last but not the least Shia scholars have said that imam ALI as got his daughter married to umar bin al khitab.

Importantly , the children out of the relationships mentioned above......... Hazrat Abu bakr and Hazrat usman are paternal and maternal grand fathers of the kids of imam hassan as and imam hussain as

JAZAK Allah KHER

Posted (edited)

Salam brother Ameen

When u look into depth, please look the ut-infra:

The families of the caliphs and the ahal e bayt have been giving daughter and sons to each other in marriage as well.

- mother of imam jaffar as sadiq as was the grand daughter of HAZRAT Abu bakr , meaning thereby , that hazrat Abu bakr was great grand father of imam jaffar as sadiq as from mothers side.

- Also imam jaffar as used to say that I m son of Abu bakr through two lineages.

- Also imam hassan as got married to grand daughter of Hazrat Abu bakr

- Also imam hassan again got married to daughter of Hazrat Usman

- Also again this time imam hussain as got married to daughter of Hazrat Usman after the death of imam hassan as

- also imam Hussain as got his daughter married to the grandson of Hazrat usman.

- last but not the least Shia scholars have said that imam ALI as got his daughter married to umar bin al khitab.

Importantly , the children out of the relationships mentioned above......... Hazrat Abu bakr and Hazrat usman are paternal and maternal grand fathers of the kids of imam hassan as and imam hussain as

JAZAK Allah KHER

 

 

Statement:

- Also imam jaffar as used to say that I m son of Abu bakr through two lineages.

 

This is a Weak narrations in Our Context. (If you Request I can prove so), and also is Fabricated. ( I can prove so if you request)

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

Statement:

- Also imam hassan as got married to grand daughter of Hazrat Abu bakr

 

I don't know Of this, as I presume your not cautious of History, please state her full name.

 

__________________________________________________________________

 

 

Statement:

last but not the least Shia scholars have said that imam ALI as got his daughter married to umar bin al khitab.

 

(1) Our scholars have made no such Statement, There have been many Arguments of this and this is also proven to be false due to the variety of narrations.

(2) If it is proven, it Also (I have proof) proven that he married her by force and another figure also.

 _______________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Statement:

- also imam Hussain as got his daughter married to the grandson of Hazrat usman.

 

​I don't Want to embarrass you. Please give us the full name (including Family).

 

____________________________________________________________

 

 

Statement:

- Also imam hassan again got married to daughter of Hazrat Usman 

 

Do you know what your talking about? Do you even know the wives of the Imam hassan (a.s)?

_________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

Importantly , the children out of the relationships mentioned above......... Hazrat Abu bakr and Hazrat usman are paternal and maternal grand fathers of the kids of imam hassan as and imam hussain as 

 

(1) you need to be cautious if this false statement, I assure you, that they are the Sons of Fatima (a.s) Grandsons of the prophet peace be upon him.

(2) even if the such a blood Relation existed, do you think that makes a difference in the crimes of Abu bakr, Umar, and uthman have committed against Ahlulbayt (a.s)? You cannot use blood Relations as an Excuse. I advise you to do your research.

____________

  

 

______________________

concerning the Children of Imam Ali (a.s) you must be ignorant of, as he did not name them based on the three Caliphs, and any one who thinks of such is Uneducated, if so how many uthmans and Umars Lived at the time? can you please give us on narration where Imam Ali (a.s) makes a statement that names this child of his after them? ( you will find non) as we all know Muhammad Ibn Abi bakr is the adopted son of Imam Ali (a.s) and his named is Muhammad and not Abu bakr, and "Abu bakr" is merely the "Laqa'ab" His family name. And as for Uthman, Imam Ali (a.s) named him after his brother. Also on this issue I find it very of Ignorant of your like to use this as an excuses that he loved the three caliphs.

 

____________

Lets debate.

__________

(wasalam)   

 

_______________

 

And Before you Copy and past any Factual sources (most likely will not exist), I advise you to make sure of its Authenticity to avoid embarrassment.

Edited by TheIslamHistory
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

(1)  Salaam brothers. My dear brother Muslim 720, you have raised alot of issues and one can only discuss in detail, one issue at a time. I am going to proceed with what you have said that, if something happens (some person comes in to power) then this must be the will of Allah and therefore must be just, righteous and acceptable.

 

(2)  Lets use your theory and take a look at Yazeed. How many accepted him and how many opposed him. Vast majority of the Muslim Ummah was with him. Some accepted him, some remained silent, some didn't care and only 72 opposed and challenged him.

 

(3)  So would you consider Yazeed as just, righteous and acceptable, since he got in to power and this also must be the will of Allah??? Otherwise he wouldn't have got in to power. And what is your opinion on Ameer Muavia??? Why isn't he among the rightly guided and Khulafaa-e-Rashedoon???

(4)  The verses i've put forward to you, brother Muslim 720, speak about leaders (Imaams) in human form. The just and fair as well as the unjust and unfair, both the good as well as the bad, the pious as well as the evil, the right as well as the wrong and the true as well as the false have all got into power.

 

 

(1)  Whatever comes about is due to Allah's Will but not everything is acceptable.  Sometimes, it is a test!  In the case of Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra], it was both Allah's Will and a righteous, acceptable decision because the Prophet [saw] took him as his Companion when he migrated.  The Qur'an talks about Allah [swt] sending his serenity upon him.  The Prophet [saw] appointed him as the imam of Muslims behind whom everyone prayed.  The Prophet [saw] married his daughter Aisha [ra] because it was Abu Bakr's [ra] desire to have his family be linked with the family of the Prophet [saw].  You are making a broad statement whereas my point is precise and in the context of Khilaafat of Abu Bakr [ra], it was the will of Allah [swt] and it was the right decision.  It is also acceptable because many Sahaba [ra] were present who agreed with his selection.  Abu Bakr [ra] initially chose Umar [ra] and another Sahaba [ra] to be chosen as the Caliph.  It was others who reminded Abu Bakr [ra] that he had led them in prayers while the Prophet [saw] was alive which caused Umar [ra], who had been recommended by Abu Bakr [ra] for Khilaafat, to turn to Abu Bakr [ra] and pledge his allegiance to him.  As soon as Umar [ra] gave him the bayah, everyone else followed suit.

 

(2)  Yazeed does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the above-mentioned Sahabas [ra].  Not to mention that he was not even a Sahabi!

 

(3)  Allah’s Messenger (saw) said, “The Prophetic Caliphate will be for 30 years.  Then Allah will give dominion to whomever he pleases.” (Sunan Abu Dawood number 4646)

 

Allah’s Messenger (saw) said, "The Caliphate will remain in my nation for 30 years and then kingship after that”.  We find this hadith in Sunan At-Tirmidhee # 2226.  Safeenah (ra), the narrator of the above narration, points out that the caliphates of Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra], Uthman [ra] and Ali [ra] add up to 30 years, thereby making them the rightly-guided Caliphs.  Some scholars have also added the 6-month caliphate of Imam Hassan [ra] since the reigns of the above four rightly-guided Caliphs [ra] only add up to 29 years and 6 months.

The rule of Muawiyah [ra] is considered a kingship and I accept his rule only because it was Imam Hassan [ra] who gave him the Khilaafat thus fulfilling the prophecy of Rasulullah [saw] that Imam Hassan [ra] would create peace between Muslims.

 

(4)  I know that the word "Imam" takes different meanings in the Qur'an.  I have acknowledged that it has been used five times for inanimate objects and seven times for human beings.  So I do not know why TheIslamHistory is charging me of not knowing the varying meanings of the term "Imam."  What I wished to impart was that every time Shias talk about Imamat being usool-e-deen, the rest of the Muslims ask them for a proof from the Qur'an since the remaining four usool - Tawheed, Nabuwa, Qiyamah and Adalah - are all found in the Qur'an.  If you randomly open the Qur'an to any page and read two pages before and after your starting point, you will not even go more than two pages before you read a verse regarding Tawheed, Nabuwa, Qiyamah or Adalah.  So we ask for one verse for Imamah.  Our Shia brothers point to the following verse:

"And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim (Abraham) [i.e., Allah] tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), "Verily, I am going to make you an imam (a leader) for mankind (to follow you)." [ibrahim (Abraham)] said, "And of my offspring (to make leaders)." (Allah) said, "My Covenant includes not Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers)."  (Qur'an 2:124)

 

Therefore, in such a situation, you have to analyze qualitatively and quantitatively all the occurrences of the word "Imam" in the Qur'an.  If you do such an analysis, which I briefly did in an earlier post, you can see that not all forms of Imam (mentioned in the Qur'an) are just and righteous.  Well if that is the case, then this verse does not support Imamat of infallible individuals, does it?  Even the verse insinuates that from among the offspring of Abraham [asws], there will be those who will not receive the covenant since they will be "zalimun."  Hence, this verse - and other verses talking about "imams" (leaders) who will be mischievous - contradict the infallibility of Imams and therefore go against the Shia aqeedah which states that Imams [ra] are infallible.  Going one step further, without infallibility, one can safely conclude that the entire concept of Imamah collapses.

 

But to entertain some of our readers here and to get everyone to put their thinking caps on, let me bring up a few logical questions.

 

-  Our Shia brothers say that this verse (Qur'an 2:124 about Abraham [asws]) relates to the concept of Imamat.  Let us, for a moment, accept their claim.  They also say that Imamat was handed to Imam Ali [ra] during the incident of Ghadir Khum.  I will momentarily accept this claim at face-value as well.  They say that the Prophet (saw) was a prophet and an Imam which is why Rasulullah [saw] is above Ali [ra].  Fine, no qualms!  Here is my question though.  When and where was the Prophet (saw) declared the Imam?  If Allah [swt] took the time to announce the Imamat of Abraham [asws] and if Allah [swt] chose Imam Ali [ra] as the Imam after Rasulullah [saw], why did He not announce the Imamat of the Prophet [saw]?  If He [swt] did, where is it?  I am not saying that it has not happened (as far as I know, it is not mentioned anywhere) but if it has, let me see it.  When and where?

 

-  As we see, if we agree momentarily with our Shia brothers and the verse quoted about Abraham [asws] from Surah Baqarah, then it becomes clear that for one to be an Imam, he must be a prophet first.  After all, Abraham [asws] was a prophet first, before he was given the title of "Imam", and then he was declared an "Imam."  If the criteria to become an "Imam" is to be a prophet first, why, when and where was this exception made for Imam Ali [ra] and the remaining 11 Imams?  Otherwise, we know that the 12 Imams [ra] did not attain prophethood, not even one of them!  So how can this verse justify their Imamat when they did not possess the prerequisite (being a prophet) for attaining Imamat?

 

Lastly, if one has to be a prophet before attaining Imamat thus making Imamat a higher position than just prophethood - and if being an Imam and a prophet is better than being just a prophet - then why do we not say, "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad Imamullah?"  Isn't it better to say "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad Imamullah" instead of "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad ur Rasulullah" because the former shows that the Prophet [saw] is an Imam and a prophet while the latter states that he [saw] was only a prophet?

 

Like I said before and will say it one more time, when you have one fabrication, you need many more to support it with.  The more fabrications you bring in to support your favorite fabrication, the more questions arise.  The more questions arise and the messier the picture looks!

Edited by muslim720
  • Advanced Member
Posted

Mr Islam history

I m only involved with my brother AMEEN here....

I have the references and I know the names....

There were you tube videos posted in page three of this thread after my question....

For ur kind information did the scholar in that video mentioned even one reference either Shia aur Sunni in his one hour discussion.....

He kept on going and going......

This is very shameful that someone sitting on the culpit of PROPHET MUHAMMAD PBUH and keeps on talking without mentioning a single book or single author or anything....

This is ur discriminatory attitude mr Islam history....

When I write something without reference ... You get infuriated and when your scholars read one hour majlis without giving reference than you are silent....

This is highly deplorable and condemnable attitude of yours....

Also the time and words you have used for me are not nice...

See all my posts and the words I have used for brother AMEEN are very polite and soft....

Try to spread love here not force people....

On your part mr Islam history you could have just asked me nicely that brother can u please provide references to all these things.... But u r having a go at me....

I m sorry u look like a scholar but u don't act like one.....

Also if the same scholar in video provides me with references now.... I will not even entertain them because it was his responsibility to provide them at the very first place....

Mr Islam history

Next time please be cautious in how u speak .... U love ahal e bayt as I do than follow the akhlaq/manners of ahal e bayt than go on the next step.....

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

(salam)

Cool down Bro Advocate, written debates are something else as compared to a running speech of some majlis, Moreover, since you are new whereas Brother Islam History is old, his way of addressing an issue is more in the framework of debate, manazara etc. The more older you get here in such debates,  you will be more accustomed to use of phrases like Authentic Reference with Assnad check etc etc and even words like you are caught lying because of quoting a false reference or save your skin from getting embarrassed less you post scanned proof etc etc. Although logic/ mantaq takes its own turn in debates, but once some bio-data is quoted normally source is also refereed. So cool down and start getting accustomed to the world of chat forums where someone said i quote

copy + paste + Google = net scholarship  :donno: , also some rijalian said give me online reference of a book so i may able to use control + f = hadiath master   :donno: Assnad check master  :donno:

Actually it does help, but only in the beginning of a debate but later a person having an in depth study of a given topic (not just copy paste) will steal the show. Take a look at this topic  : Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235015707-response-to-narrator-criticism-in-sunni-rijal/

I hope brother you will not feel enraged next time if someone ask for a reference.

Jazak Allah khair to all 

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salam to all. There are manners bro

Now u have jumped in with the same rude attitude, I think someone asked u to do that.

After sometime ten more people will jump in.... You never even bothered saying Salam to me while even starting to talk.

I m a guest at this forum

You should show some hospitality as same with mr Islam history.

Brother AMEEN if u remember u asked me in a very soft and decent attitude for reference and I provided them and u said that u will have a look in depth and I said its ok.

NOTE #

BROTHER AMEEN and BROTHER MUSLIM720

Can u please guide me how to lodge a complain on this forum as I m new and people here are trying to attack me from left right and centre .

Not only that the way they ask for references from me is a disgrace in itself.

People have tried to lampoon me

Some one has also used harsh interrogative tone with me in his message

Brother Ameen and brother Muslim 720 I don't treat guests who come to my house like this.

I want to make a complain if u both brothers can just guide me how to ? It will be great ful of you.

JAZAK Allah KHER

Also I have attested majalis in which references are given all the time... So don't tell me this .... Thanks

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