Saduq's Polemical Sunni Chains

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

حدثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن إسحاق ـ رحمة الله عليه ـ قال : حدثنا عبد العزيز بن ـ يحيى الجلودي ، عن الحسين بن معاذ ، عن قيس بن حفص ، عن يونس بن أرقم ، عن أبي سنان الشيباني ( 2 ) عن الضحاك بن مزاحم ، عن النزال بن سبرة ، عن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام في

حديث يذكر فيه أمر الدجال ويقول في آخره : لا تسألوني عما يكون بعد هذا فانه عهد إلي حبيبي عليه السلام أن لا اخبر به غير عترتي . قال النزال بن سبرة : فقلت لصعصعة ابن صوحان : ماعنى أمير المؤمنين بهذا القول ؟ فقال صعصعة : يا ابن سبرة إن الذي يصلي عيسى بن مريم خلفه هو الثاني عشر من العترة ، التاسع من ولد الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام وهو الشمس الطالعة من مغربها ، يظهر عند الركن والمقام ، فيطهر الارض ويضع الميزان بالقسط فلا يظلم أحد أحدا ، فأخبر أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام أن حبيبه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله عهد إليه أن لا يخبر بما يكون بعد ذلك غير عترته الائمة .

Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Ishaq – Allah have mercy upon him – narrated to us: Abd al-Aziz b. Yahya al-Jaludi narrated to us from al-Husayn b Ma`ath from Qays b. Hafs from Yunus b. Arqam from Abi Sinan al-Shaybani from al-Dahak b. Mazaham from al-Nazal b. Sabra from Ameer al-Mumineen [as] in a hadith where he mentioned the affair of the Dajjal and he was saying in the end of it: Do not ask me of what will be after this for verily is a covenant from to me from My belove (the Prophet) [sawa] that I do not inform it to other than my progeny. al-Nazal b. Sabra said: I said to Sa`sa`ah b. Sawhan: What did Ameer al-Muminee [as] mean by this saying? So Sa`sa`ah said: O Ibn Sabra! Verily the one whom Isa b. Maryam will pray behind is the 12 from the Progeny, the 9^th from the loins of al-Husayn b. Ali [as] and he is the rising sun from the its West. He will appear at the Rukn and Maqam. Then he will purify the earth and set the balance by justice so no one will oppress anyone. So Ameer al-Mumineen [as] informed that his Beloved Rasulullah [sawa] entrusted to him that he would not inform be after than other than his progeny, the Imams.

Saduq [ra] narrates this in his Kamal al-Deen here: http://alkafeel.net/islamiclibrary/hadith/kamal/kamal/06.html

Let us examine the chain of narrators:

محمد بن إسحاق بن إبراهيم

Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Ishaq al-Talaqani

The Shaykh of al-Saduq – narrates from him 407 times giving him taraddi 197 times and tarahham 65 times. He is thiqa by the gathering of several qara’in:

- He is the Shaykh of Saduq [ra]

- Saduq narrates from him repeatedly

- Saduq gives him Taraddi and Tarahhum

- He narrates in the Mashaykh of al-Faqih

- His is from the Mashaykh al-Ijaza

عبد العزيز بن يحيى الجلودي البصري

Abd al-Aziz b. Yahya al-Jaludi

Tusi: gives him tawtheeq in his Rijal

وعده في رجاله في من لم يرو عنهم عليهم السلا قائلا: " عبد العزيزابن يحيى الجلودي أبو أحمد، بصري، ثقة

The remainder of this chain would be majhool to us. But Saduq is connecting to a Sunni chain here. So let’s inspect these ruwat from their literature:

الحسين بن معاذ

This is most apparently Husayn b. Ma`aath b. Khaleef al-Basri

Given tawtheeq by: Abu Dawud al-Sijistani, Ibn Hajr, al-Thahabi, Muslima b. al-Qasim al-Andalusi

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=1351

قيس بن حفص

Qays b. Hafs b. al-Qa`qaa` al-Basri al-Tamimi

Tawtheeq by: Ahmad b. Sali al-Jayli, ibn Hajr, Darqutni, Yahya b. Ma`een

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=6520

يونس بن أرقم

Yunus b. Arqam al-Basri al-Kindi

Noted to be Shi’i

Ibn Hajr says he is Maqbool [acceted]

Ibn Hibban includes him in his thiqaat and notes his tashayyu`

Ahmad b. Butta b. Ishaq b. al-walid says he is saduq [honest]

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=8603

أبي سنان الشيباني

Saduq also narrates this same chain later with the name أبي سيار الشيباني

So he is Sa`id b. Sinan al-Shaybani

Some have tried to weaken him based on his hadith, but he is thiqa upon what most say here mention him as righteous and a worshipper

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=3343

ضحاك بن مزاحم

Dahak b. Mazaham

They mention weakeness and irsal – this is most apparently from Ibn Abbas only, most give him praise

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=1495

نزال بن سبرة

Nazaal b. Sabra al-Hilali

Lots of tawtheeq, his being a companion is entertained and disputed

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=1710

صعصعة بن صوحان

Sa`sa`ah b. Sawhan al-Abdi al-Kufi

Lots of tawtheeq and praise, mentioned as a Sahabi by some

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=3932

It seems polemics started quite early :lol:

Inshaa'Allah I will most more as I find and grade, inshaa'Allah

الله أعلم

في أمان الله

[Ali-F]

Wa alaykum al salam

1. What is taraddi

2. What is tarahham

3. What is tawtheeq

Barak'Allah feek...

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Wa alaykum al salam

1. What is taraddi

Wa`alaykumussalaam

Taraddi is saying "May Allah be pleased with him" رضي الله عنه or رضوان الله عليه

2. What is tarahham

Tarahhum is saying "May Allah have mercy upon him" رحمه الله or رحمة الله عليه

3. What is tawtheeq

Tawtheeq is the giving someone validation of trustworthiness in narration and accuracy in what he narrates.

في أمان الله

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

حدثنا محمد بن عمر قال : حدثني أبو بكر محمد بن السري بن سهل قال : حدثنا عباس بن الحسين ( 2 ) قال : حدثنا عبد الملك بن هارون بن عنترة ، عن أبيه ، عن جده ، عن علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام قال : قال رسول صلى الله عليه وآله : النجوم أمان لاهل السماء فإذا ذهبت النجوم ذهب أهل السماء ، وأهل بيتي أمان لاهل الارض فإذا ذهب أهل بيتي ذهب أهل الارض .

Muhammad b. Umar narrated to us: Abu Bakr Muhammad b. al-Sirri b. Sahl narrated to us: Abbas b. al-Husayn narrated to us: Abd al-Malik b. Harun b. Antra from his father from his grandfather from Ali b. Abi Talib [as] he said: The Messenger of God [sawa] said: The stars are the protectors for the people of the heavens so when the stars disappear the people of the sky disappear. My Ahl al-Bayt are the protectors of the for the people of the earth so when my Ahl al-Bayt disappear the people of the earth disappear.

محمد بن عمر

This is Muhammad b. Umar b. Muhammad b. Salim

Najashi and Tusi praise him indicating tawtheeq:

كان من حفّاظ الحديث، وأجلاّء أهل العلم

أحد الحفاظ والناقدين للحديث

The rest of the Ruwat are not in our books, rather they too are Awam, so let’s turn to them.

أبو بكر محمد بن السري بن سهل

Muhammad b. Sirri b. Sahl

Khateeb al-Baghdadi and Darqutni give tawtheeq

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=27776

عباس بن الحسين

This likely Abbas b. al-Husayn Abul Fadhl al-Balkhi al-Qantra (same location as previous narrator)

Ahmad b. Hanbal gave him tawtheeq

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=4163

عبد الملك بن هارون بن عنترة

Abdul Malik b. Harun b. Antra

He has some strong tadheef and accused of lying and fabrication. However, most of these weakenings are based in istiqraa’ (not liking his ahadeeth) and calling what he narrates munkar thus he is a liar and fabricator. And to us, he is not lying, this hadith has many chains for us and they are mutabar.

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=40162

أبيه

Harun b. Antra

Most give him tawtheeq, some say he has manakeer, but they attribute that who narrate from him (ie his son)

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=7984

جده

Antra b. Abd al-Rahman

Most give tawtheeq, Darqutni solely calls him a liar

http://library.islamweb.net/hadith/RawyDetails.php?RawyID=6253

You can safely assume any weakening and criticism here is based on istiqraa and hating their Shi’I narrations.

الله أعلم

في أمان الله

[Ali-F]

Sorry if I ask, but what does Awam and tadheef means? Sorry, and may Allah swt bless you.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Sorry if I ask, but what does Awam and tadheef means? Sorry, and may Allah swt bless you.

Some homework for you

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

You can safely assume any weakening and criticism here is based on istiqraa and hating their Shi’I narrations.

That is a major accusation and assumption you are making. If you have not researched every single hadith of theirs, you cannot make that statement. Just because you saw 1 hadith in a Shee`ah book, you are automatically assuming that they are weakening them because of their Shi'i narrations. Very erroneous way of looking at Hadith and `ilm al-Hadith all together.

(salam)

[Qa'im]

You find a mix of influences in the matn. On one hand it has some very Shi`i ideas:

-Secrets of the Prophet (pbuh) entrusted with the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt

-The Mahdi is the 12th Imam from the children of Husayn

There are other ideas that are more explored and discussed in Sunni hadith literature:

-`Isa b. Maryam praying behind the Imam (exists in our books too, but not in a sahih fashion)

-Dajjal (same as above)

-The Sun rising from the West (but unique to this narration, the Sun is a metaphor for the Imam)

And there are ideas shared and expounded upon by both:

-Appear between the rukn and maqam

-Put justice on the Earth

[guest 34193]

أبي سنان الشيباني

Saduq also narrates this same chain later with the name أبي سيار الشيباني

So he is Sa`id b. Sinan al-Shaybani

Some have tried to weaken him based on his hadith, but he is thiqa upon what most say here mention him as righteous and a worshipper

http://library.islam...php?RawyID=3343

ضحاك بن مزاحم

Dahak b. Mazaham

They mention weakeness and irsal – this is most apparently from Ibn Abbas only, most give him praise

http://library.islam...php?RawyID=1495

نزال بن سبرة

Nazaal b. Sabra al-Hilali

Lots of tawtheeq, his being a companion is entertained and disputed

http://library.islam...php?RawyID=1710

Here's another narration from them:

[7783] أخبرنا أبو محمد عبد الكريم بن حمزة نا أبو محمد الكتاني أنا أبو محمد بن أبي نصر ح وأخبرنا أبو الحسن الفرضي وأبو الفتح ناصر بن عبد الرحمن بن محمد قالا أنا أبو القاسم بن أبي العلاء أنا أبو نصر بن الجندي قالا أنا خيثمة بن سليمان نا هلال بن العلاء نا أبي نا إسحاق الأزرق أنا أبو سنان عن الضحاك بن مزاحم عن النزال بن سبرة الهلالي قال قلنا لعلي يا أمير المؤمنين فحدثنا عن عثمان بن عفان فقال ذاك امرؤ يدعى في الملأ الأعلى ذا النورين كان ختن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) على ابنتيه ضمن له بيتا في الجنة

Abu Sinan from ad-Dahhak b. Muzahim from an-Nazzal b. Sabra al-Hilali. He said: We said to `Ali: O Amir al-Mu’mineen, so narrate to us about `Uthman b. `Affan. So he said: That is a man is called in the most exalted chiefs (i.e the archangels) the possessor of the two lights. He was the son in law of Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم upon his two daughters, and he guaranteed a house for him in the Garden.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/3195_تاريخ-مدينة-دمشق-ابن-عساكر-ج-٣٩/الصفحة_47

[Ibn al-Hassan]

Here's another narration from them:

[7783] أخبرنا أبو محمد عبد الكريم بن حمزة نا أبو محمد الكتاني أنا أبو محمد بن أبي نصر ح وأخبرنا أبو الحسن الفرضي وأبو الفتح ناصر بن عبد الرحمن بن محمد قالا أنا أبو القاسم بن أبي العلاء أنا أبو نصر بن الجندي قالا أنا خيثمة بن سليمان نا هلال بن العلاء نا أبي نا إسحاق الأزرق أنا أبو سنان عن الضحاك بن مزاحم عن النزال بن سبرة الهلالي قال قلنا لعلي يا أمير المؤمنين فحدثنا عن عثمان بن عفان فقال ذاك امرؤ يدعى في الملأ الأعلى ذا النورين كان ختن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) على ابنتيه ضمن له بيتا في الجنة

Abu Sinan from ad-Dahhak b. Muzahim from an-Nazzal b. Sabra al-Hilali. He said: We said to `Ali: O Amir al-Mu’mineen, so narrate to us about `Uthman b. `Affan. So he said: That is a man is called in the most exalted chiefs (i.e the archangels) the possessor of the two lights. He was the son in law of Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم upon his two daughters, and he guaranteed a house for him in the Garden.

http://shiaonlinelib...-ج-٣٩/الصفحة_47

Now, now...there must be someway to account for this absurdity. I know, maybe we can refrain from picking and choosing what we like from these Sunnis and leave it be.

(wasalam)

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

[7783] أخبرنا أبو محمد عبد الكريم بن حمزة نا أبو محمد الكتاني أنا أبو محمد بن أبي نصر ح وأخبرنا أبو الحسن الفرضي وأبو الفتح ناصر بن عبد الرحمن بن محمد قالا أنا أبو القاسم بن أبي العلاء أنا أبو نصر بن الجندي قالا أنا خيثمة بن سليمان نا هلال بن العلاء نا أبي نا إسحاق الأزرق أنا أبو سنان عن الضحاك بن مزاحم عن النزال بن سبرة الهلالي قال قلنا لعلي يا أمير المؤمنين فحدثنا عن عثمان بن عفان فقال ذاك امرؤ يدعى في الملأ الأعلى ذا النورين كان ختن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) على ابنتيه ضمن له بيتا في الجنة

Abu Sinan from ad-Dahhak b. Muzahim from an-Nazzal b. Sabra al-Hilali. He said: We said to `Ali: O Amir al-Mu’mineen, so narrate to us about `Uthman b. `Affan. So he said: That is a man is called in the most exalted chiefs (i.e the archangels) the possessor of the two lights. He was the son in law of Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم upon his two daughters, and he guaranteed a house for him in the Garden.

http://shiaonlinelib...-ج-٣٩/الصفحة_47

Well, checking the chain up to them would be quite the task (which I'm not too keen on doing especially since this guy is naming people via kunya mostly). Something to be suspicious about this is from Tareekh Dimishq (ie Ummayya strong hold) and this is a hadith being attributed to Imam Ali [as] [their #1 enemy] and praising Uthman [their #1 guy]. Also, this chain is really long. There is always that issue of istiqraa for tawtheeq.

(salam)

(bismillah)

That is a major accusation and assumption you are making. If you have not researched every single hadith of theirs, you cannot make that statement. Just because you saw 1 hadith in a Shee`ah book, you are automatically assuming that they are weakening them because of their Shi'i narrations. Very erroneous way of looking at Hadith and `ilm al-Hadith all together.

(salam)

(wasalam)

Please have fun in looking up some of our major narrators in their works and see their comments (I'm sure you already have), like Hammad b. Isa. The Awam were deep in doing istiqraa' to weaken and strengthen people and casting aside people for their mathhab. Not saying some of it isn't "hissi shahada" or what have you. But the chunk of them, I'd say istiqraa. It's very easy to have your rijal system prove your beliefs and weaken the opponent's ideas when the standard of grading those narrators was to narrate in accordance to those beliefs.

Indeed I'm very suspicious of anyone who narrates Shi'i narrations and is weakened by them - suspicious of that weakening, anyway.

Anyway, my point to this topic is to show that Saduq [ra] would narrate through Sunni chains every once in a while and see how they would see these narrators.

الله أعلم

في أمان الله

[guest 34193]

Well, checking the chain up to them would be quite the task (which I'm not too keen on doing especially since this guy is naming people via kunya mostly). Something to be suspicious about this is from Tareekh Dimishq (ie Ummayya strong hold) and this is a hadith being attributed to Imam Ali [as] [their #1 enemy] and praising Uthman [their #1 guy]. Also, this chain is really long. There is always that issue of istiqraa for tawtheeq.

Yet it's not at all suspicious that a Twelver book (also with a long chain) would have an explicitly pro-Twelver narration from that Sunni chain?

Edited May 22, 2013 by macisaac

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Difference here is I don't accuse Saduq, Kulayni, Tusi and company of lying and fabricating.

في أمان الله

[Ibn al-Hassan]

(bismillah)

Difference here is I don't accuse Saduq, Kulayni, Tusi and company of lying and fabricating.

في أمان الله

Why put them on such a pedestal, though? Are they somehow above scrutiny?

(wasalam)

[IbnSohan]

You find a mix of influences in the matn. On one hand it has some very Shi`i ideas:

-Secrets of the Prophet (pbuh) entrusted with the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt

-The Mahdi is the 12th Imam from the children of Husayn

There are other ideas that are more explored and discussed in Sunni hadith literature:

-`Isa b. Maryam praying behind the Imam (exists in our books too, but not in a sahih fashion)

-Dajjal (same as above)

-The Sun rising from the West (but unique to this narration, the Sun is a metaphor for the Imam)

And there are ideas shared and expounded upon by both:

-Appear between the rukn and maqam

-Put justice on the Earth

How is that a mix of influence? The matn has no idea that is solely Sunni. Some ideas are shared (wither they are sahih or da'eef) and some are solely Shi'a. Because going by that logic we can assume that every weak Shi'a hadith has a Sunni (or non Shii) influence.

[Qa'im]

How is that a mix of influence? The matn has no idea that is solely Sunni. Some ideas are shared (wither they are sahih or da'eef) and some are solely Shi'a. Because going by that logic we can assume that every weak Shi'a hadith has a Sunni (or non Shii) influence.

I am not making that statement with negativity, I am only saying that some of the content of the hadith reflects the mostly-Sunni chain. Nothing in the matn is exclusively Sunni, but you find that they have more qara'in for the things I've listed than we do. For example: you'd have to look hard to find narrations on the Dajjal in our books, and you'd have to look even harder to find one that is mu`tabar. Then, bring your list and compare it to what the Sunnis have on Dajjal in their authenticated traditions. The purpose of my post was to prove that the matn could realistically have been narrated by proto-Sunnis.

[IbnSohan]

I am not making that statement with negativity, I am only saying that some of the content of the hadith reflects the mostly-Sunni chain. Nothing in the matn is exclusively Sunni, but you find that they have more qara'in for the things I've listed than we do. For example: you'd have to look hard to find narrations on the Dajjal in our books, and you'd have to look even harder to find one that is mu`tabar. Then, bring your list and compare it to what the Sunnis have on Dajjal in their authenticated traditions. The purpose of my post was to prove that the matn could realistically have been narrated by proto-Sunnis.

I am not disagreeing with you, but I do not feel comfortable to label a hadith as Sunni until there is no doubt about it. But going back to the longer version of the hadith and the related hadith that was mentioned right after it in Ikmal Aldeen, I think you might be right to some extend ....