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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is A Waqifi (Sevener) Najis And Kuffar?

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Ali-F

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Ws,

A Sunni does not become najis and kafir by rejecting the Imams (a.s) unknowingly. The same could be said about the seveners.

Intentionally rejecting the Imamah of the Imams (a.s) while recognizing their due rights will probably render them kafir.

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Imam Ridha cursed them "Now; if the hypocrites do not give over, and those in whose hearts there is sickness and they that make commotion in the city, We shall assuredly urge thee against them and then they will be thy neighbours there only a little; cursed they shalt be, and wheresoever they are come upon they shall be seized and slaughtered all -- God's wont with those who passed away before; and thou shall find no changing the wont of God.

Edited by IbnSohan
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Ws,

A Sunni does not become najis and kafir by rejecting the Imams (a.s) unknowingly. The same could be said about the seveners.

Intentionally rejecting the Imamah of the Imams (a.s) while recognizing their due rights will probably render them kafir.

That's a very wrong comparision. Sunnis who were not aware of the right of Ali ibn Abi talib a.s and were neither against him have exception. If not rejector of even one Imam is rejector of all Imams a.s. In case of a waqifi; they are doubters; and they die with their doubt unless Allah azwj wills to guide them. We have clear narrations that they are Najis and Kafir of the highest degree. Imam reza a.s. showed a person; a waqifi who was questioned in his grave and was tormented.

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Imam Ridha cursed them "Now; if the hypocrites do not give over, and those in whose hearts there is sickness and they that make commotion in the city, We shall assuredly urge thee against them and then they will be thy neighbours there only a little; cursed they shalt be, and wheresoever they are come upon they shall be seized and slaughtered all -- God's wont with those who passed away before; and thou shall find no changing the wont of God.

The italics refer to the Qur'anic verses in Surah Ahzab 33:60-62. How do you link it with the Imam (as) cursing those people and where is your source?

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The italics refer to the Qur'anic verses in Surah Ahzab 33:60-62. How do you link it with the Imam (as) cursing those people and where is your source?

رجال الكشي: عن سليمان بن الجعفري قال: كنت عند أبي الحسن عليه السّلام بالمدينة إذ دخل عليه رجل من أهل المدينة فسأله عن الواقفة، فقال أبو الحسن عليه السّلام: ghos-start.gif مَلْعُونِينَ أَيْنَما ثُقِفُوا أُخِذُوا وَقُتِّلُوا تَقْتِيلاً سُنَّةَ اللهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلُ وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللهِ تَبْدِيلاً ghos-end.gif ، واللهِ إنّ الله لا يبدّلها حتّى يُقتَّلوا عن آخرهم

i brought the verse before and the verse after but imam ridha used that verse to curse them.

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(salam)

According to our hadiths, they are kuffar and are najis (so najis in fact, that the early Shi`ahs used to call them "wet dogs"). There is a hadith where someone asks Imam Al-Ridha (as) if he can give Waqifis zakat, the Imam (as) replies, by telling him not to give them any, because they are kuffar, mushrikoon, and zindeeqs.

(wasalam)

Edited by Crescent
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Rejecting any of the Imams is as same as rejecting all of them. But Muslim doesn't become najis/kuffar just by rejecting ahl al bayt. People are still Muslim as long as they don't reject Allah swt, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and don't commit big sins that will make you be considered outside of Islam.

However, we have a tradition that say that when they die, they will die as if they are living in the time of Jahiliah, in the state of complete disbelieve. But this is not just for Waqifa, but to all the Muslims who reject the Ahl al Bayt.

I say leave them alone. Most of the Waqifas of Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as) already extinct. Rather, we should focus our energy on the 80% of Muslims that don't even know who the ahl al bayt are.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

That first line is quite true, as it's reflected by this Hadeeth from Wasaa'il ash-Shi`ah by ash-Shaykh Hurr al-`Amili رضي الله عنه:

٣٤٩٣٢ | ٢٩- وعن الحسين بن علي، عن التلعكبري، عن الحسين ابن حمدان عن عثمان بن سعد، عن محمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن خالد بن مفلس، عن نعيم بن جعفر، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، عن أبي خالد الكابلي، عن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام قال: قلت له: كم الأئمة بعدك؟ قال: ثمانية، لأن الأئمة بعد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله اثنا عشر - إلى أن قال: - ومن أبغضنا وردنا أورد واحدا منا فهو كافر بالله وبآياته.

And from al-Hussain b. `Ali (in al-Kifaayah al-Athaar by al-Khazzaz al-Qummi), from at-Tal`a'ukbari from al-Hussain b. Hamdaan, from `Uthmaan b. Sa`ad, from Muhammad b. Mehraan, from Muhammad b. Isma`eel, from Khaalid b. Mufallis, from Na`eem b. Ja`far, from Abu Hamzah ath-Thumaali, from Abi Khaalid al-Kaabuli, from `Ali b. al-Hussain عليهما السلام He said: I said to him: How many A'imah are there after you? He said: Eight, for verily the Imams after the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله are twelve – until he said: And whoever hates us and rejects us or rejects one from us, then he is a kaafir in Allah and in His signs

Wasaa'il ash-Shi`ah volume 28 pp. 348 | وسائل الشيعةج ٢٨ - الصفحة ٣٤٨

Kifaayah al-Athaar pp. 236 | كفاية الأثر الصفحة ٢٣٦

Though whether the Hadeeth is Mu`tabar cannot be proven, from what brother Dar'ul_Islam found wrong in the Sanad, al-Hussain b. Hamdaan is weak in Madh'hab, `Uthmaan b. Sa`ad is Majhool, Muhammad b. Mihraan is Majhool, etc. for the moment I'm searching for the Fatwaa by Sayyid Roohaani حفظه الله has said in relation to Waqifism, saying that if an Ithnaa `Ashari leaves and becomes a Waqifi, then he is to be treated like a Muslim, until he abuses one of the later A'imah عليهما السلام like ar-Ridaa عليه السلام and those who followed, then he is a Kaafir. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.

Edited by al-`Ajal Ya Imaam
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1- Waqifis exist either in history books or in cyber space.

2- Those that exist in cyber space have no evidence or argument to offer.

So its a moot discussion. Of course any one who doesn't believe in the imamate of Imam Raza (as) is in a very sad state.

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركته

That first line is quite true, as it's reflected by this Hadeeth from Wasaa'il ash-Shi`ah by ash-Shaykh Hurr al-`Amili رضي الله عنه:

٣٤٩٣٢ | ٢٩- وعن الحسين بن علي، عن التلعكبري، عن الحسين ابن حمدان عن عثمان بن سعد، عن محمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن خالد بن مفلس، عن نعيم بن جعفر، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، عن أبي خالد الكابلي، عن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام قال: قلت له: كم الأئمة بعدك؟ قال: ثمانية، لأن الأئمة بعد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله اثنا عشر - إلى أن قال: - ومن أبغضنا وردنا أورد واحدا منا فهو كافر بالله وبآياته.

And from al-Hussain b. `Ali (in al-Kifaayah al-Athaar by al-Khazzaz al-Qummi), from at-Tal`a'ukbari from al-Hussain b. Hamdaan, from `Uthmaan b. Sa`ad, from Muhammad b. Mehraan, from Muhammad b. Isma`eel, from Khaalid b. Mufallis, from Na`eem b. Ja`far, from Abu Hamzah ath-Thumaali, from Abi Khaalid al-Kaabuli, from `Ali b. al-Hussain عليهما السلام He said: I said to him: How many A'imah are there after you? He said: Eight, for verily the Imams after the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله are twelve – until he said: And whoever hates us and rejects us or rejects one from us, then he is a kaafir in Allah and in His signs

Wasaa'il ash-Shi`ah volume 28 pp. 348 | وسائل الشيعةج ٢٨ - الصفحة ٣٤٨

Kifaayah al-Athaar pp. 236 | كفاية الأثر الصفحة ٢٣٦

Though whether the Hadeeth is Mu`tabar cannot be proven, from what brother Dar'ul_Islam found wrong in the Sanad, al-Hussain b. Hamdaan is weak in Madh'hab, `Uthmaan b. Sa`ad is Majhool, Muhammad b. Mihraan is Majhool, etc. for the moment I'm searching for the Fatwaa by Sayyid Roohaani حفظه الله has said in relation to Waqifism, saying that if an Ithnaa `Ashari leaves and becomes a Waqifi, then he is to be treated like a Muslim, until he abuses one of the later A'imah عليهما السلام like ar-Ridaa عليه السلام and those who followed, then he is a Kaafir. wa Allaahu 'Aa`lam.

What is the difference?

saying that if an Ithnaa `Ashari leaves and becomes a Waqifi, then he is to be treated like a Muslim, until he abuses one of the later A'imah عليهما السلام like ar-Ridaa عليه السلام and those who followed, then he is a Kaafir

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What is the difference?

saying that if an Ithnaa `Ashari leaves and becomes a Waqifi, then he is to be treated like a Muslim, until he abuses one of the later A'imah عليهما السلام like ar-Ridaa عليه السلام and those who followed, then he is a Kaafir

By rejecting their Imamah(later Imams) a waqifi must consider the later Imams as liars. A man who claims to be an Imam (in sense of a masoum imam) while he is not, is in hell. Being a waqifi is a direct accusation to the later Imams that they were liars.

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Effect of rejecting one of the Imams.

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Muhammad bin Ismail from Mansur bin Yunus from Muhammad bin Muslim who said:

I said to Abu Abdillah [as] - a man said to me: know and acknowledge the last one from the Aimmah and it will do you no harm if you do not know and acknowledge the first one [of them]. So He [as] said: may Allah curse this one, I hate him whilst I do not even know him, and is the last one known by any other means than through the first one?! (Mu'tabar)

Edited by Islamic Salvation
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Yes, and for that reason we should stop treating other Muslims as filthy dogs.

It's ironic how vehemently Twelvers protest when the same labels are applied to them by the Salafis.

It is right time we take a step back and re-examine our recent penchant of declaring non-Twelver Shias and non-Shias as kaffirs, mushriks and najis people.

I do not have problem if salafist will only consider us najis or kafirs, I do not see how is that going to be any worse than us considering kafirs as najes or that kafir consider us as brainwashed, i mean to get to grow up out of that childish rosy world.

Salafist are bad because they take it upon themselves to kill shia and cheer for their killing. On the other hand, I do not think we as shia will cheer up when something bad happen to kafirs like a storm. There is human interactions and there is religious restrictions. You may chat with kafirs but you may not marry them, eat their food or accept their religious theories. I do not think this is a hard concept to understand.

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I do not have problem if salafist will only consider us najis or kafirs, I do not see how is that going to be any worse than us considering kafirs as najes or that kafir consider us as brainwashed, i mean to get to grow up out of that childish rosy world.

Salafist are bad because they take it upon themselves to kill shia and cheer for their killing. On the other hand, I do not think we as shia will cheer up when something bad happen to kafirs like a storm. There is human interactions and there is religious restrictions. You may chat with kafirs but you may not marry them, eat their food or accept their religious theories. I do not think this is a hard concept to understand.

Religious restrictions and fiqh laws vis-a-vis non-Muslims notwithstanding, there is certainly something wrong when we take it upon ourselves to paddle into the murky waters of declaring people so and so when they recite the Shahadah and consider Muhammad to be the last prophet of Allah. I can twist the argument as much as based on my interpretations of certain ahadith to find enough fault in other non-Twelver sects, and declare them kuffar, mushrikeen and what not (but aren't these same labels have been applied to the Twelvers by other sects over the centuries?). But these interpretations are man made and far-fetched in most cases; not something decreed by God. Take Isma`ilis for instance, or Alawis or Zaidis. Who are you willing to make the final authority in establishing their Islam or the lack of it?

Edited by Haji 2003
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Yes, and for that reason we should stop treating other Muslims as filthy dogs.

It's ironic how vehemently Twelvers protest when the same labels are applied to them by the Salafis.

It is right time we take a step back and re-examine our recent penchant of declaring non-Twelver Shias and non-Shias as kaffirs, mushriks and najis people.

It's just barefaced ignorance of the word "kafir," too. It literally means to "conceal something in a deliberate manner." How do you judge that? You simply can't. True "kufr" can only be expressed through arrogance. Muslims are arrogant enough to accuse others of arrogance. Oh, the irony.

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It's just barefaced ignorance of the word "kafir," too. It literally means to "conceal something in a deliberate manner." How do you judge that? You simply can't. True "kufr" can only be expressed through arrogance. Muslims are arrogant enough to accuse others of arrogance. Oh, the irony.

It is not in this sense that we're talking about declaring others kaffirs. It's a technical label as you very well know.

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Technical label? How do you mean?

We are not establishing whether someone is a "true" kaffir aka 'concealing something' or being 'arrogant', which is a linguistic issue. We (in fact others, not me) are establishing which Shia sects can be considered Muslims and which out of the fold of Islam based on their beliefs and practices. This is technical demarcation.

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Yes, and for that reason we should stop treating other Muslims as filthy dogs.

It's ironic how vehemently Twelvers protest when the same labels are applied to them by the Salafis.

It is right time we take a step back and re-examine our recent penchant of declaring non-Twelver Shias and non-Shias as kaffirs, mushriks and najis people.

Thank you sir

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Religious restrictions and fiqh laws vis-a-vis non-Muslims notwithstanding, there is certainly something wrong when we take it upon ourselves to paddle into the murky waters of declaring people so and so when they recite the Shahadah and consider Muhammad to be the last prophet of Allah. I can twist the argument as much as based on my interpretations of certain ahadith to find enough fault in other non-Twelver sects, and declare them kuffar, mushrikeen and what not (but aren't these same labels have been applied to the Twelvers by other sects over the centuries?). But these interpretations are man made and far-fetched in most cases; not something decreed by God. Take Isma`ilis for instance, or Alawis or Zaidis. Who are you willing to make the final authority in establishing their Islam or the lack of it?

Why is that giving you a heart attack? Just curious.

well, not sure what are you talking about, the question of the topic is simple, are waqifis kafir and or najis? The answers are not even a subject of interpretations, they are clear statements by Imam Ridha against those who had rejected his Imamah. If you have trouble with these facts, please take it to Imam Ridha and protest against his judgment, It isn't mine or any other person judgment. If there is a person who followed that path, maybe it is fair to let them know what our religion think of them. What we , personally, think of them is irrelevant to the question posted. If a shia man rejected Imam Mahdi and followed one of these new trendy movements, then they ought to know that they are following a cursed path. Should we shout at their faces? calls them names? I do not think so. I find that the best to do with those who disagree with us is to tell them very honestly and in proper manners what is our religious restrictions regarding them. I have not met a person who felt offended by this way yet. Well except the wahabis, I love to see them get offended actually, and I dont bother to tell them anything about the religion.

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What is the difference?

saying that if an Ithnaa `Ashari leaves and becomes a Waqifi, then he is to be treated like a Muslim, until he abuses one of the later A'imah عليهما السلام like ar-Ridaa عليه السلام and those who followed, then he is a Kaafir

The difference is that one can refuse to believe in one of the later Imams and you can still treat him as a Muslim but once he abuses (like, swearing) the later Imams or says something bad them, then he become a Kaafir.

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The question is: If those who reject all Imams (the Sunnis) are not najis and kuffar for jurisprudence purposes, why then those who believe in few Imams but not in others (Sixers or Seveners or whatever) be considered najis and kuffar unless there is something more to their beliefs that meets the eye?

Unless we know what sort of people with what type of beliefs the hadith of Imam Reza is talking about, we can't declare the whole of that sect as out of the fold of Islam.

I just want to point out the difference. I have no interest in this thread. The difference is sunnis are from ignorance or lack of knowing the truth. Most of them who were born into sunnis islam were feed without the idea of imamate. Now those who are shia who were fed imamate, and ended up rejecting some of the imams, that is another thing. Its like with prophethood. Those who are muslim and disregard one prophet are not muslim. The root of it is rejecting not lack of knowledge or ignorance.

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well, not sure what are you talking about, the question of the topic is simple, are waqifis kafir and or najis? The answers are not even a subject of interpretations, they are clear statements by Imam Ridha against those who had rejected his Imamah. If you have trouble with these facts, please take it to Imam Ridha and protest against his judgment, It isn't mine or any other person judgment. If there is a person who followed that path, maybe it is fair to let them know what our religion think of them. What we , personally, think of them is irrelevant to the question posted. If a shia man rejected Imam Mahdi and followed one of these new trendy movements, then they ought to know that they are following a cursed path. Should we shout at their faces? calls them names? I do not think so. I find that the best to do with those who disagree with us is to tell them very honestly and in proper manners what is our religious restrictions regarding them. I have not met a person who felt offended by this way yet. Well except the wahabis, I love to see them get offended actually, and I dont bother to tell them anything about the religion.

Well, obviously, the Imam would use strong words to condemn those who have gone astray but that doesn't mean we start calling them Kuffar - and I am not saying this to be nice. From what I know, aren't our laws about this that as long as one believes in Tawheed and the Nabuwwah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and do not deny a very fundamental belief that could, in turn, be contrary to the Oneness of Allah (SWT) , such a person is to be considered a Muslim. So, even though a Sevener or the other sects which rejected some of the Imams, may reject some of the Aimmah, surely they are better than Sunnis, let alone Wahabis and we don't even label Wahabis as Mushrikeen - at least not at a jurisprudential level or we are just as bad as them at dishing out titles - so how can we label a Sevener or Zaidi as a Kaafir?

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The question is: If those who reject all Imams (the Sunnis) are not najis and kuffar for jurisprudence purposes, why then those who believe in few Imams but not in others (Sixers or Seveners or whatever) be considered najis and kuffar unless there is something more to their beliefs that meets the eye?

Unless we know what sort of people with what type of beliefs the hadith of Imam Reza is talking about, we can't declare the whole of that sect as out of the fold of Islam.

Its important to remember that we are not handing out these kufr, shirk, najis degrees to whosoever we think to be. So we keep analogical reasoning aside all the time and look for what aimma a.s have said and they also gave waqifi the degree of apostasy in addition to the above.

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Its important to remember that we are not handing out these kufr, shirk, najis degrees to whosoever we think to be. So we keep analogical reasoning aside all the time and look for what aimma a.s have said and they also gave waqifi the degree of apostasy in addition to the above.

Can you please quote those ahadith with their gradings, brother?

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